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Originally Posted by 44tries
Hey guys, sorry for the delay in updating. Things are are still improving slowly, but surely. I think we got over the stall that occurred a couple weeks ago and I can see progress happening again. W's behavior toward me is still much better and I haven't seen any major relapses. Occasionally, we may get into a squabble and I can see flashes of that old, stubborn, disrespect. But, I think she has really made it a priority to change and genuinely grow, which is very positive. Both of use are in a place where we have high motivation for self-improvement and right now we are working together as a team and lifting each other up more than we have in a long time.

I am having patience with the limbo period. I'm not in any rush and I know there's a long way to go before I can really say we are out of the woods. My biggest concern is her lack of vulnerability. Like I said, I am hopeful as she is obviously willing to do work and make positive changes, and I know she is aware of this issue in herself. However, it's such an ingrained trait and that stubborn pride is a powerful enemy. I think IC is going to be very important and I am going to advocate for it in the near future.

We still haven't had any real R talks, discussion of the A, etc. I don't really know when is the right time. But I have a feeling she isn't going to be the one to bring it up and it makes me slightly uneasy. Is that normal and to be expected? If I am the one to do it, I want there to be a clear purpose.

On a physical front, things are still very slow. Aside from cuddling in bed/on the couch and the occasional short kiss, she doesn't seem to be too interested in much. That's fine...unless it lasts forever. Any thoughts on what I should expect in this department and how to handle it? I may have been remained silent about being in a sexless marriage before, but I'm not going to settle for it anymore. Taking all those NMMNG lessons to heart.

Will update again soon.


So 44, on the affection/physical front. Be aware that you may be in a period of a new normal.

These kinds of things morph and change overtime in relationships. Think about the early, honeymoon, any and everything goes period, vs. the more settled in once or twice a week (or less) more straight ahead sex, etc.

In my sitch, my W is not interested in the passionate, tongue kissing like she once was. I've talked to others and this is not an unusual change in longtime Rs. My W is much less into snuggling on the couch, and holding hands, that sort of thing. It isn't that she is anti-affection now, just not as into initiating and not into as often as she was when she was younger. Things have improved in other ways too though. Like during sex she is much more into it, and it is more satisfying, and more of a connection than it was in years past.

Lots of good progress here from where you were several months ago. I agree that you do not have to settle for a SSM. Get into MC, and make sure she is agreeable to working on things before accepting full R.


M(53), W(54),D(19)
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We still haven't had any real R talks, discussion of the A, etc. I don't really know when is the right time. But I have a feeling she isn't going to be the one to bring it up and it makes me slightly uneasy.


She's not going to bring it up to discuss, and frankly, I don't believe anything will be made better by discussing the affair. I'm not saying you shouldn't ever talk about it, but I don't think she'll change due to a discussion. She'll react like she did the last time, leaving ends untied and you'll not get the answers you want or the satisfaction. You need an unbiased third party......like a professional MC.

My suggestion is to make up your mind as to when you are ready to go either way in the M, and then tell her if the M continues, that the two of you will need to attend MC until the issues in the MR can be resolved and you can learn the skills needed in this relationship. As long as she sees you putting up with this style of living arrangements, and no commitment from her...….I think she is going to continue doing the same old stuff, b/c unfinished business was never settled. To her, it's a game of manipulation.

I agree that you've come a long way, but I sense something is off b/c you are not posting like you once were. That's usually a sign that the member has given up. I'm concerned that maybe you've been reading some other material, like previously, and it messes with your NGS. Even if you don't have much to update, you can post on other threads. Just don't forsake all the hard work you've done thus far.

((hugs))


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Hi 44,

just wanted to say that I haven't commented on your thread in a while, but I've continued to follow it. One thing I've noticed is that you are looking for some major progress - which you should be. But given your situation, I think that things aren't moving at an unreasonable pace either. Rome wasn't built in a day, but like MWD says, the small, consistent actions will mean more than anything else.

Keep on keeping on!


H 34
W 29
BD 3/12/18
Divorce Busted Spring 19

It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
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ovrrnbw, thank you for your post, it's a great reminder and very true. It really helps to have outside input reassure me that we are still headed in the right direction.

Sandi, I completely agree with you that MC is going to be necessary and, hopefully, a huge help. Only problem is, I don't know if she will go. Last week she brought up that her coworker and his W were 'already' going counseling (they've been married a year I think). I asked where they were going because this installation does not have those kind of services and she said they were going to a different branch's base about an hour away. I got a little excited and said I didn't know that was possible, can we go? She said no. It wasn't a heated argument or anything, but I asked why not and she said because I will only be disappointed and hurt to hear all the honesty, even though I already know it and am in denial (her words). Yes, W, I'm well aware of the issues and not in denial (I didn't say this). Apparently, not 'accepting' her lack of feelings and walking away means I'm in denial that we have MR problems. I think the real reason she doesn't want to go to counseling is because it scares her and she is worried what other people would think; clearly she upholds some stigma about it given her gossip over her coworker. But, the reason doesn't really matter, I just don't know if/how she will change her mind.

The irony is that she tells me I need to go to counseling! In the past couple weeks, she has been acting like I am a total failure and making me feel like trash. She says she is holding me accountable and pushing me to be better, which in fairness is kind of working because I value her input and it motivates me. However, I feel like no matter how hard I try, there is just more criticism. If I forget one task, I hear never ending comments on me being irresponsible, procrastinating, etc. If I say the wrong thing, she claims I am always rude and treating her badly. Some of the stuff she says aligns with my true weaknesses and I understand her point, but I'm left wondering if I'm really THAT bad. I really try to self-assess and reflect, but it's sort of bizarre to feel like you're doing the right things and see no positive effects. My dad is the king of denial, lack of self-awareness, and is guilty of a lot of things my W complains about. I know I am like him in a lot of ways, so it is quite troubling to me to hear my W parroting the same gripes I've heard from my mom and siblings about my dad for years. But, I am doing my best and I truly feel that the best thing I can do is keep trying to make myself better. It's the DB way all along, and I think it applies no matter what stage you are in. If I can't stand there and say that have successfully battled my personal flaws, then I have no grounds to assess the struggle against the MR issues. So personal improvement and working on my hyper-focus, procrastination/time management, and taking more time to think before I speak are my priorities right now.

Also Sandi, I wanted to address the part where you suggest maybe I have given up. Not the case at all. I don't feel despondent about the situation; I am not sure whether or not we will make it all the way, but I'm still focused on giving it the best chance and am at peace with whatever outcome. Some days my resentment is higher than others and I question if it's really worth it, but I'm certainly not giving up. I am working on the resentment because that might be what fuels some of my tone/word choice issues with W. I will try to post more frequently, it's a good suggestion to post on other threads if I don't have an update. It feels like nothing new is happening for my MR lately, which is why I don't have things I feel compelled to post. W no longer mentions anything like D or separation and all of her talk of the future is about 'us'. Yet, the issues remain and I guess that's not surprising because they will take a long time to solve. So, I feel I am at some random mile in the marathon, with nothing terribly exciting happening, which is fine.


M: 26 W: 26
M: 1.5 T: 3
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BD: 31 March 2018

W's affair began: 23 March 2018
Affair confirmed: 18 April 2018
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She says she is holding me accountable and pushing me to be better, which in fairness is kind of working because I value her input and it motivates me.


Who is holding her accountable? You see, when/if the WW makes the decision to end her affair and save her M, it's the H who holds her accountable. So, like several other things, this is completely out of order. As always, she is treating you as if she is your employer. She's just calling it by nicer term.

Quote
However, I feel like no matter how hard I try, there is just more criticism. If I forget one task, I hear never ending comments on me being irresponsible, procrastinating, etc. If I say the wrong thing, she claims I am always rude and treating her badly. Some of the stuff she says aligns with my true weaknesses and I understand her point, but I'm left wondering if I'm really THAT bad. I really try to self-assess and reflect, but it's sort of bizarre to feel like you're doing the right things and see no positive effects.


Do you feel you are back to the place you were when you joined the board (hopefully. minus an A)? B/c what you said in the quote above, sounds very familiar.

Quote
Yet, the issues remain and I guess that's not surprising because they will take a long time to solve.


Some issues do take time, especially if it involves healing. However, I think you are stuck in this way of thinking that none of this should be surprising. It should not be an excuse to accept how she treats you.....by saying, "Well, this will take a long time". No, you have allowed her to treat you this way, and she will continue getting worse. People who know right from wrong can change how they treat others, practically overnight. It's healing that takes times. By what your W says, she already knows what is wrong but she doesn't want to hear it. I think she doesn't want to be told that "she" is wrong and needs to act right toward her H. She prefers do continue things as they are, b/c she wants someone to pick on. It should be unacceptable. Unacceptable means that you won't put up with it.......if you stay in this M. As long as she sees you accepting what she dishes out, then she's going to continue the same old stuff. I usually have to remind impatient posters that it takes time, but in your case, I think a lot more should have been done by this point. So, please stop this mindset that this is all going at a normal pace, b/c I'm concerned it is giving you a victim mentality. As long as you were writing how the two of you were getting along better, then I thought maybe some progress was being slowly made. But then when you stopped posting regularly, I became concerned things were sliding.

You are correct that it takes time when people are having to work through issues. However, if the other person has issues that stem from their raising, family of origin, or years of an unhealthy R........then major professional help is usually required. It also takes time when behavior patterns have to be broken and re-trained. Depending on the individual stitch as to how serious and how long it will take. If there was a lot of bad history in the R with betrayal, abuse, deceit, etc..........it takes time for the healing to be compete. And here's the thing, 44. It takes cooperation to do what is necessary to heal, b/c it does take moving forward and it does take the help of a professional to guide the individual or couple through the healing process. Make sense? Yes, you can call her out about bad behavior and disrespect, but if she has deeper issues that is causing her to act like a control freak, then what steps are being made to work through it? If she has some inner demons, it will affect the MR. Therefore, you have a say in it. How is the MR progressing toward a healthy outcome, if nothing is being done toward the issues that got you here? I mean, I don't know if she has demons from her past. She acts like a spoiled brat who likes to bully, but that's just MHO. I've seen nothing from her that suggest she is trying to change or wants to do anything to having a good MR. As young as you are and no longer than you've been M, just trying to endure each day doesn't seem like a lot of progress at this point. And, you are wearing down........which means you are getting a little weaker. You stay stronger when you are in touch with the board, and reading.

Is she still sleeping in the spare bedroom?

Hope to hear back from you soon. ((hugs))


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Originally Posted by sandi2
Who is holding her accountable? You see, when/if the WW makes the decision to end her affair and save her M, it's the H who holds her accountable. So, like several other things, this is completely out of order. As always, she is treating you as if she is your employer. She's just calling it by nicer term.


This is good insight. Is the ideal that we are holding each other accountable?

Originally Posted by sandi2
Do you feel you are back to the place you were when you joined the board (hopefully. minus an A)? B/c what you said in the quote above, sounds very familiar.


I agree there are familiar patterns. I would not say I feel we are back to the place we were when I joined. However, I would like to be farther away from it than we are.

Originally Posted by sandi2
Some issues do take time, especially if it involves healing. However, I think you are stuck in this way of thinking that none of this should be surprising. It should not be an excuse to accept how she treats you.....by saying, "Well, this will take a long time". No, you have allowed her to treat you this way, and she will continue getting worse. People who know right from wrong can change how they treat others, practically overnight. It's healing that takes times. By what your W says, she already knows what is wrong but she doesn't want to hear it. I think she doesn't want to be told that "she" is wrong and needs to act right toward her H. She prefers do continue things as they are, b/c she wants someone to pick on. It should be unacceptable. Unacceptable means that you won't put up with it.......if you stay in this M. As long as she sees you accepting what she dishes out, then she's going to continue the same old stuff. I usually have to remind impatient posters that it takes time, but in your case, I think a lot more should have been done by this point. So, please stop this mindset that this is all going at a normal pace, b/c I'm concerned it is giving you a victim mentality. As long as you were writing how the two of you were getting along better, then I thought maybe some progress was being slowly made. But then when you stopped posting regularly, I became concerned things were sliding.


I'm really glad you touched on how people's behavior can in fact change practically overnight. You are right there are times she wants someone to pick on and there's no excuse for it to be me. I don't think I have a victim mentality, I only just got over the mindset of shouldering the burden of being the "bad guy". Part of the process I describe as being slow is my own healing. It's curious because I thought the healing process would be linear with time, and every day better than the last. But I've been battling my own mind lately as the healing seems to have gone backward. I've had increased resentment and feelings of hurt and I'm not sure why.

As far as getting along better, we are. Most days are good. We just got back from a vacation with another couple that went great. There are still bad moments, but for example the only one I can think of in the past week was the night we came home and it was very late and we were tired, but W had homework to finish. I got fed up with her nagging me about shaking my leg (a bad habit which she hates) and told her to back off. She got pouty and left the room and proceeded to ignore (re punish) me when I later checked up on her and her work progress. This sort of immature dysfunctional communication still prevails in times when she gets hurt or angry. I'm sure I'm not perfect either, but I don't resort to passive aggressive/manipulating tactics. Of course, when she got to a point when she really needed my help with something, she swallowed her pride and we both apologized and that was that.

Originally Posted by sandi2
You are correct that it takes time when people are having to work through issues. However, if the other person has issues that stem from their raising, family of origin, or years of an unhealthy R........then major professional help is usually required. It also takes time when behavior patterns have to be broken and re-trained. Depending on the individual stitch as to how serious and how long it will take. If there was a lot of bad history in the R with betrayal, abuse, deceit, etc..........it takes time for the healing to be compete. And here's the thing, 44. It takes cooperation to do what is necessary to heal, b/c it does take moving forward and it does take the help of a professional to guide the individual or couple through the healing process. Make sense? Yes, you can call her out about bad behavior and disrespect, but if she has deeper issues that is causing her to act like a control freak, then what steps are being made to work through it? If she has some inner demons, it will affect the MR. Therefore, you have a say in it. How is the MR progressing toward a healthy outcome, if nothing is being done toward the issues that got you here? I mean, I don't know if she has demons from her past. She acts like a spoiled brat who likes to bully, but that's just MHO. I've seen nothing from her that suggest she is trying to change or wants to do anything to having a good MR. As young as you are and no longer than you've been M, just trying to endure each day doesn't seem like a lot of progress at this point. And, you are wearing down........which means you are getting a little weaker. You stay stronger when you are in touch with the board, and reading.


I like how you illustrate why her personal issues are my business, in a sense. She has her share of emotional wounds from the past, but it's very difficult for me to assess them or compare them to "average". Interestingly, that is a problem I run into a lot which is that I don't know what to expect. I never know if I'm expecting too much or too little.

Your sentence I highlighted about what we are doing toward the issues that got us here essentially touches the bottom line. I do not feel confident we are away form those issues. Have we made some progress? Some, yes. But it feels like the progress is stalling and we're still so far from the goal. You are certainly right that enduring each day is not a positive place to be. To be fair, I don't feel I am simply enduring each day. Like I said, most days are good. She is still very focused on herself and what I can do to help her rather than the other way around, but I can tell she's trying. (Five months until we move and I can go back to working full-time the same as her). We don't have stormy fights nearly as often, and majority of our interaction is friendly and respectful. My main concern is the lack of passion that landed us here in the first place. We can be great friends, but with that missing piece always an elephant in the room, she will be at risk for repeating an affair and both of us living in an unfulfilled marriage. I'm no longer willing to settle for this.

The good news is, she said she will go to counseling. She just doesn't want to go to military doctors for fear of her career. That's fine with me, but I don't know how to find an alternative until we are back in the states. We had a sort of cathartic conversation the night before we left on our vacation where we were talking about the future and how a separation (as in long distance) will probably be inevitable in a year or two as she begins her program and we consider buying a house somewhere. Having been struggling a lot with my own healing, I could not help but express my concern with this given the way things are going (ie my trust is not restored). She told me she cannot promise me 100% she will want to be with me for the rest of her life. I told her I know she feels that way, but I need to know 100% that what happened (the affair) is never going to happen again. She assured me it would not and I decided it was time to discuss some of my questions and unknowns about the whole thing since it was clearly eating at me. I didn't learn anything game-changing, but some blanks were filled in. I feel I got some closure regarding the whole situation and can really focus on moving past it. She was open and (presumably) honest, and patiently answered whatever I asked. She told me she regretted it and wouldn't do it over again, but I could tell she is holding onto a small amount of justification surrounding her feelings (or lack thereof). She isn't brushing the problems that brought the affair about in the first place under the rug, which is a good thing. But those issues need to be solvable and we haven't gotten there yet.

A part of me wonders if whatever's "missing" for her isn't real commitment itself. Clearly she has always had one foot out and was able to make the choice (or "say screw it" as she says) to be selfish and dishonor whatever commitment she had made prior. When (if ever) will she make that choice to truly make herself vulnerable and get rid of her safety nets? To be honest, it's harder than it sounds and I understand the difficulty. But I think our lack of intimacy could be largely blamed on those issues, which goes back to the inner demon discussion. I just find myself constantly wondering if I'm fighting the current on something that isn't solvable, or if there is a pot of gold on the other side.

Originally Posted by sandi2
Is she still sleeping in the spare bedroom?


No, she has been back in the MBR since July; I need to update my signature. There is no more separation, but obviously we are not past the "not 100% sure I want to be with you forever" stage.


M: 26 W: 26
M: 1.5 T: 3
No kids
BD: 31 March 2018

W's affair began: 23 March 2018
Affair confirmed: 18 April 2018
Confrontation/claims she ended A: 14 May 2018
Ended in-house separation: July 2018
Joined: Apr 2018
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Okay I need some advice on a specific situation. W is having surgery in a couple weeks. Not too major, but will render her unable to drive, do her hair, open a jar, etc for 2-4 weeks. So, she has been asking me several times now if I'm sure I'm ready to provide the support she will need. I've assured her it will be fine and I will fill in for the stuff she can't do. Of all people--and I'm sure everyone on the board knows this--I certainly will not have a problem waiting on her, post-op. Since I have spent months cutting back on this type of behavior, it seems this is the reason she is concerned. That I will refuse some request if I feel I'm doing too much. I told her as long as she had appropriate expectations, I'm sure I will be there for whatever she needs. I asked her if she seriously had doubts about that because, frankly, it's a bit absurd. It feels more like she is asking for a hall pass in advance to be a b!tch and treat me like crap (I never would have thought any of those things before I came to this board). But this is the third or so time she had brought it up, so I decided to explore the issue a bit further. I don't remember my exact words, but I think I said something like "what is the real reason you keep worrying about this? because it doesn't make sense for you to be legitimately concerned." Of course she called me out on invalidating her feelings (which is absolutely true but I'm using the WW exception, perhaps incorrectly?) and she wanted nothing to do with me the rest of the night.

This has happened more than once since I started telling her I won't be manipulated or play any silly games. She gets very offended by me implying she is playing games. I don't know if this is all part of the act, if I'm somehow wrong and I'm not applying what I've learned on the board properly, or if she is genuinely hurt by my assumptions. But I would love to hear input, especially from Sandi, about what I should do in these situations.

I am confident the affair stuff is behind us and she is not hiding anything in that regard. We had a brief discussion about a week ago when I saw a text from OM come in on her phone. She didn't know I saw it and I watched carefully to see what she would do. As far as I could tell, she quickly put it away and never responded. Later, she told me it was a random message about a mutual friend and she just deleted it. But it brought up the fact that she is still friends with OM on Facebook and Instagram and I asked if she had considered what I might think about that. She said she had thought about it. But that ultimately there's nothing there and it doesn't matter. She seems to have a habit of discounting my feelings as something that matters.

There is still a lack of intimate connection between us and I think a lot of it is due to this lack of transparency she can't seem to let go of. I don't know why she has such a problem being real. Other times I wonder if that's just the real her.


M: 26 W: 26
M: 1.5 T: 3
No kids
BD: 31 March 2018

W's affair began: 23 March 2018
Affair confirmed: 18 April 2018
Confrontation/claims she ended A: 14 May 2018
Ended in-house separation: July 2018
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Okay first, ALWAYS BE VALIDATING.

"I can see why you would be concerned with that. However, I am willing to do whatever you need to have done for you post-op, however, due to our past I am still a little fearful about being taken advantage of."

You validated. Then you told her how you feel.

You are in a tricky period 44. Moving on from MR problems into piecing and R is fraught with peril. You have to juggle the delicate balancing act of continuing to DB but also knowing when to NOT DB when appropriate. It isn't easy. At all.
It is an art not a science. The actions of a LBS when they are moving towards piecing and R can make or break that movement.

But let me tell you, this reminds me of my W's first EA in 2005. Found out about it in the fall. She immediately sent a no contact email to EAP, which he was very open to since he didn't want me to tell his W about what was going on. In fact, he adhered to it better than my W did! (She had a few acts of rebellion leading up to finally moving back to R and piecing.) We remained in limbo with her being very distant, thought mostly transparent, until spring of 2006. In May of 2006 things still could have gone either way. She was saying she wanted to save the MR, but she wasn't really doing any work towards that. She had told some friends of hers (in an email I intercepted through transparency) that though she wanted the MR and she didn't want D, that she still so wanted to pursue an R with the AP. She wanted to want to R but her heart wasn't in it.

By May of 2006 we were still very much in a state of limbo. Our MR had been a SSM, and it wasn't improving post all of the EA stuff. The week before Memorial Day she came down with appendicitis. I was out of town, and when I came home she was laid up on the couch, not feeling well. I said "is it your appendix?" She said her whole abdomen hurt not just the right side. The next morning she couldn't even stand up. So I called my parents, had them come get our D (who was just under 3 at the time), and took her to ER.

Her appendix has pretty much exploded by then, and she was in the hospital for 5 days, surgery the first night, and got pumped full of IV antibiotics for the extent of her stay. I went into nurse mode and did everything for her. Took days off work, even cleaned her up after the bathroom (she was so sore after the laparoscopic surgery that she couldn't do that herself).

My taking such good care of her pushed us over the edge into full blown R. And she was fully committed to the MR and working on R after that. (It should be noted that we didn't really deal with underlying issues and do all the work we should have done which led us 12 years later to where we were at the end of last year).

My point is that this could be an huge opportunity to take your reconciliation to the next level.


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And, without confronting, just review the boudaries about transparency. Keeping contact with OM is a no go.


WW H(me): 53
W: 48
T: 27 M: 22
S: 18
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Steve, what a great example you gave of how your W's appendicitis became the catalyst for true recon in your sitch. I will definitely remember it going into my W's surgery. I think I have some personal "letting go" to do to make my attitude a little more positive and not always be looking the negative in my W's behavior.

I guess part of the struggle for me knowing where the waywardness stops. After having my eyes opened so much by the board and learning to identify all the underlying motivations of wayward behavior, I don't know when I can go back to trusting my W again. It almost feels like having a spouse you wonder might be a spy. I just don't want to be naive or go back to the old ways and experience this all over again, continuing to be in the position of lesser power. Can I ask you, Steve, what specifically do you think you neglected to do that could have prevented a repeat 12 years later? I will admit, this is now one of my most prominent fears that holds me back from diving into full recon. I do NOT want to look back and be disappointed in the judgments I make today.

Neffer, 100% correct OM contact is a no go and I know she knows that (and so far seems to be able to follow it without reminders based on her account that she promptly deleted the text). The question is whether I should demand she delete him from social media. I don't want to be controlling, and to be honest I don't feel it matters whether or not they are "friends" if they wanted to carry on inappropriate contact. But at the same time, I deleted one of her co-workers and his W upon her request because she didn't "want any association" with them any longer (totally unrelated situation). The fact she doesn't delete someone she had an AFFAIR with, sort of blows my mind. And that right there is the principle of my problem. It isn't about whether or not she will delete him if I demand it; she probably would, with or without a squabble. It's the fact that she didn't already do it on her own as a no-brainer. That shows the level of inherent disrespect, to me. And there is no amount of communication that solves that problem.

We openly aknowledge her lack of respect for me and have discussed it a couple times. Just the other day, she bluntly admitted she thinks I'm a weak person. That stings. But the only thing I can do is take it upon myself to make changes that combat that opinion. Since we had the open conversation about the affair and went on vacation, I feel a little bit of ice has been broken (not to imply things were icy) and we have been getting along especially well. It gives me hope that we can find that connection again. Every time I start to wonder if I'm crazy and we just aren't meant for each other, I'm reminded of how much love and fondness we do have and it goes both ways. But it's like lightning in a bottle and I'm trying to figure out how to bring it to the surface and sustain it.


M: 26 W: 26
M: 1.5 T: 3
No kids
BD: 31 March 2018

W's affair began: 23 March 2018
Affair confirmed: 18 April 2018
Confrontation/claims she ended A: 14 May 2018
Ended in-house separation: July 2018
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Moderated by  Cadet, DnJ, job, Michele Weiner-Davis 

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