ambivalent WW - detach? -- Part 3

[burned]

Just thinking, not so much ruminating but thinking. Today was hard. The positive feelings from the weekend are wearing off, and I'm back into the whole, "This is reality and I'm lying to myself if I don't admit it." Which brings the pain. Have to find an apartment before the end of the month, thinking about what it will be like to sign a lease. Reality hits hard. This isn't a temporary sitch anymore, at least not according to the bills.

Was it AnotherStander or Amoafwl (someone with an A, anyway) who said that MC was maybe counterproductive? Well, it's over and done. One less source of pressure. I'm trying to be sure I know whether being done with MC means being done with any thought of R. Doesn't matter, I do my thing.

But what I'm thinking about is more related to the DR book than to the advice on the forums. The forums are about GAL/detach for my sake, which I'm working at as best as I can. And there's also advice to validate, validate, validate. So, I'm focusing on me, but also trying to pay attention to what works and what doesn't (that's the part from the DR book).

And I realized a couple of things just now. First, I was never very good at validating people, with the result that they feel insignificant in my presence. This was probably W's #1 complaint. Well, time for a 180. Compliments for everyone! Listen 10x as much as I talk. Back in one of the earlier threads somebody said "Holy heck you're a negative person and you need to change that" (probably one of the A-people, I think it was AnotherStander). So that's one thing I've been working at.

The second thing I realized is that maybe it already worked a little. The other night after W and I had the conversation about "MC didn't work, I guess it's over, we tried our best, I love you but I can't be with you, let's stay friends," I had my angry outburst, the usual, "This stinks, I hate it, fine, if this is what you want, then I'll be the one to pull the trigger." But later I came around and said, "Hey, you know, I was thinking about it, and you're right, this is probably the healthy thing to do for both of us." She responded positively to that, so relieved, "Glad you see it my way, this is very kind of you."

Then we did the wedding the next day and the concert the day after, which in my opinion were the best interactions we've had in the past month. She said "Thank you" both times and SHE was the one who leaned in for the hug when I dropped her off. Both times. It was BEFORE the validation that that she said, "I can't be with you because I can't relax when I'm with you." AFTER, she has been quite nice. Sure, we're S so this is all by text. So I don't know how she FELT around me and I won't know because I won't ask her because we don't talk about MR and we don't talk about the future because that's not good DB policy! But I go with the information I have.

So, that's my journal entry for today. Thanks for listening. Any feedback would be appreciated.

[burned]

Back and hoping the vets haven't given up on me.

I just re-read a bunch of Did's sitch and wow. He and I have a lot in common. So I can see why people on these boards/forums would get frustrated at me, too.

One thing W said during a bad convo last week, "It would be nice to date someone, to have someone that is excited to see me and not difficult to talk to." Describes OM in a nutshell. That was before the weekend, so I used it as a learning opportunity and I was the friendly, easy-to-talk to old version of me.

So I think what happened is that I overreacted to the positive events and maybe scared her away again. She was feeling sad and wanted a fun experience FOR HER. I was there with bells on, just because she asked. Then I invited her to something I wanted to go to, and she said yes. (That second one is a bit less clear.)

Then some friendly text messages the next few days, trying to reconnect with what we like about each other. Humor, no pressure, etc. This is not good DB, I know.

And then dead silence.

As of yesterday, I found an apartment. I'm buying furniture. The S is now legit, none of that trial separation BS. And I'm thinking it never was for her. This was an exit affair. All of the concerns she has expressed about my well-being has been to soothe HER guilt, to make it EASIER for her to finally leave. (I made the mistake once of calling her on that, and she denied it and got angry. So there's probably some truth to it.)

She still insists OM is completely out of the picture. BELIEVE NOTHING SHE SAYS. School starts next week and there he will be, easy to talk to, happy to see her. I know it's not about him but his presence doesn't really help.

So now I have the gut-wrenching pain of loss, which I am trying to use as fuel for detachment. My parents are being somewhat helpful, they have no idea what else to do because I didn't listen to their advice last month (notice a pattern? W has said in the recent past, "I don't understand why you don't listen to the people who care about you").

So I think maybe it's time to go dark. She isn't going to have much time/energy to reach out to me when school starts. Not that she was doing any of the reaching out. I was doing it. Bad DB! Sorry. Should have gone dark sooner but I didn't have the guts. Probably missed the window of opportunity, as she had enough free time during the summer that she may have started missing me. Once school is up and running, her schedule takes care of itself and there's no need for me.

Oh well. Now I get to choose what color the shower curtain is.

Hey vets, can y'all help me get back on the right track now that I wasted a month disobeying you? It would be greatly appreciated.

[AnotherStander]

Was it AnotherStander or Amoafwl (someone with an A, anyway) who said that MC was maybe counterproductive?

Could have been either of us, or one of several others here. Early on the WAS only goes to mark it off their list of "things I did to try and save the M but only proved it was already over". They do it so that if someone asks "did you try this? Did you try that?" They can say "oh yeah we tried it all. It's BS of course because the WAS isn't actually TRYING, they are just going there so they can say that they did.

But what I'm thinking about is more related to the DR book than to the advice on the forums. The forums are about GAL/detach for my sake, which I'm working at as best as I can. And there's also advice to validate, validate, validate. So, I'm focusing on me, but also trying to pay attention to what works and what doesn't (that's the part from the DR book).

Good, stick with it!

And I realized a couple of things just now. First, I was never very good at validating people, with the result that they feel insignificant in my presence. This was probably W's #1 complaint. Well, time for a 180. Compliments for everyone!

Compliments are awesome, but that's not validation, right? Validation is seeking to understand what someone is feeling and supporting their feelings no matter what they are. It is not agreeing/ disagreeing/ arguing/ convincing/ debating/ etc. It is mostly listening, and now and then repeating back their feelings and saying you understand why they feel that way. People try to make validation WAY more than that, but the whole purpose of validating is to let THEM do all the work. Let them vent and pour it all out. You can do almost nothing but sit there and nod and they will thank you for "helping" them so much. Meanwhile you'll be thinking "but I didn't do anything!" But that's the power of listening and validating.

The second thing I realized is that maybe it already worked a little. The other night after W and I had the conversation about "MC didn't work, I guess it's over, we tried our best, I love you but I can't be with you, let's stay friends," I had my angry outburst, the usual, "This stinks, I hate it, fine, if this is what you want, then I'll be the one to pull the trigger." But later I came around and said, "Hey, you know, I was thinking about it, and you're right, this is probably the healthy thing to do for both of us." She responded positively to that, so relieved, "Glad you see it my way, this is very kind of you."

Great, keep that up and eventually she'll start thinking "wow he really HAS changed."

Then we did the wedding the next day and the concert the day after, which in my opinion were the best interactions we've had in the past month. She said "Thank you" both times and SHE was the one who leaned in for the hug when I dropped her off.

Excellent baby steps, celebrate them internally and keep doing what you're doing. Remember what DB'ing is all about- keep doing what WORKS and stop what DOESN'T work Now that you see what's working, continue to build on that.

[SteveLW]

Compliments are awesome, but that's not validation, right? Validation is seeking to understand what someone is feeling and supporting their feelings no matter what they are. It is not agreeing/ disagreeing/ arguing/ convincing/ debating/ etc. It is mostly listening, and now and then repeating back their feelings and saying you understand why they feel that way. People try to make validation WAY more than that, but the whole purpose of validating is to let THEM do all the work. Let them vent and pour it all out. You can do almost nothing but sit there and nod and they will thank you for "helping" them so much. Meanwhile you'll be thinking "but I didn't do anything!" But that's the power of listening and validating.

WOW this is incredible. This should be copy and pasted into the validation thread.

The only thing I will add is that this is especially true for WAWs/WWs. Most Ws complain that men don't empathize, but immediately jump to fixing mode. And, in truth, they are probably right, most Hs do not empathize but try to fix it.

Listening and validating shows one of the biggest 180s a LBH spouse can make, and that is to stop trying to fix and make things better when all they want is you to understand.

[burned]

So her silence isn’t a bad sign then? That must be the part where “it feels wrong but it isn’t.” Aside from some nostalgia, I feel a lot better NOT “touching the hot stove.” Still doubtful that she’ll ever come around, but this is life for the moment, I only control me.

Steve, I went to a relationship workshop a few months ago (her experience there triggered S, so that was a great waste of 800 bucks). They showed a video that was hilarious and illustrated your point. I won’t name the workshop and I know I can’t post outside links, but google something about the couple with the woman who has a nail in her head. Hilarious but accurate.

Hope this confident feeling lasts. I mean, I know there are ups and downs. Hoping the up lasts a day or two longer this time. Small progress...

[burned]

Quick question before I go to bed. I was basking in the satisfaction of what happened yesterday: W texts to see if I want to meet up, I was out of town, she says, oh, ok, just that I was thinking of you and I know you’re worried about me going back to school tomorrow (i.e., today, the 10th), because of “the stuff that is hard to talk about” (i.e., OM). She apparently wanted to “acknowledge feelings.” Or maybe temp check, or who knows what.

So I do my DB and say, nope, no worries, you can do your thing, hope you have a good start to the semester. I’m paraphrasing here.

Thought it was strange that she would reach out to me that way. It was spontaneous and kind. I attributed it to the fact that I had gone somewhat dark. Maybe it worked? Hm.

Then just now I read some threads about the “script” and so forth. So now I got to thinking, is this part of the game? I’m trying not to believe anything she says, so that would include the stuff she said about how the A is over and OM is off the table.

But then why would she go out of her way to “reassure” me, the day before she knows I know she would be in the same room as him?

I smell a rat.

Vets, please advise.

(In other news, it turns out they WILL arrest you, with handcuffs and mugshots, for doing 101 in a 55 MPH zone. Ask me how I know.)

[burned]

W reached out to schedule something on Saturday, another get-together with friends where we will act like everything is fine. I'm OK with it. As long as I'm detached, I don't think it hurts the chances of R if she has enough positive memories of us together. Who knows. I'm feeling good about my detachment, so I'll accept the crumbs without expectations, right Steve?

But then she asks me how I'm doing and reiterates her concern about my feelings and reassures me that nothing happened on Monday between her and OM.

Guilt? I suspect so. But if she is detaching, why would she give a hoot about what I think of her?

Then I'm coping with a new twist. People who know us have been quite vocal about their opinions about her. How do people typically handle those? I mean, my standard response is, "Yeah, I guess it's over, I'm moving on." But there's a little fire still burning in my heart, keeping the lighthouse warm.

[burned]

Steve said this a few days ago:

Detachment really works. First, it works to help you move on no matter what. Secondly it works that when you really do it well, the WAS will respond positively almost always.

And it got me thinking: isn't detachment just the ultimate validation? In the sense that W has been saying for months, "This isn't working for me, I need to go." And I've been saying "No, don't, you're making a mistake." But by showing her an attitude of, "OK, I can see why you want to go, I would prefer if you didn't but if that's what you feel you need to do then I won't stop you." And suddenly she feels validated, and isn't in such a rush to hit the road.

And at the same time you're validating yourself by telling yourself, "I understand that you're hurting, and it's OK to hurt."

So many layers to DB.

[burned]

I need help. Past 2 weeks I was thinking, detach, it’s working, she will change her mind. Tonight we get together, she isn’t wearing her rings, we ended up doing the R talk and she is 100% done, so happy on her own, so miserable when she was with me, so certain that we are incompatible. Not a chance she will relent. Lots of guilty crying.

I’m dying. I don’t know what to do.

[SteveLW]

First you detach for you. Not her. If you were detaching then the R talk would have had zero impact on you, or close to it. Second, they all say that. I tell the story of my wife putting a profile on a dating site. A very public profile with a picture and everything. Her profile description was a long story about how she can't date right now but that she wanted to see what was available until her D. That her husband wanted to try to fix things but that she was done. Period. End of story. This was literally 5 days after she weepingly told me that the knew D was wrong, that God hated it, and that she wanted to want to stay.

Look, the WAS is on their on rollercoaster. One minute drawing near to R, the next running away as fast and far as possible.

This is why you believe nothing they say. NOTHING!!!!! Good or bad.

Just keep DBing