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Originally Posted by kml
It's my understanding that many Avoidants become so because they had a high maintenance parent (like a borderline, or alcoholic, or just smothering). Because of this they fear being "engulfed" in a relationship.

Often the tip-off that you're dating an Avoidant is when something happens in your life where most people would offer condolences or assistance, the Avoidant goes silent. I've told three of my Avoidant friends or exes about the boyfriend's cancer. Two have said nothing, one has just forwarded me a couple of political items he knew I would enjoy.


Ah, kml...thank you. This is so interesting for me. I think XH's father is an alcoholic. He was put on some sort of medication for his alcohol consumption and should have stopped drinking altogether, but he just carried on a previously.

There was a point in my life when a lot of difficult things happened for me (family deaths, court case against an ex work colleague, lost a job I had done for a long time and really loved, plus others), and XH was just not there for me, to give me any support. He just sort of disappeared, emotionally. In fact, it was shortly after that they As started.


Me: 48, XH: 42
T: 18 years, M: 15 years

EA/PA 1: 6/2012
EA/PA 2: from autumn 2012-present

BD: 5/2013
ILYBNILWY BD & left: 10/2015

OW conceived: 8/2016
Born: 4/2017

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D final: 28/12/2017
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Originally Posted by focus22
Don, these sentences really jumped out at me. I'd be interested in finding out more. Why do you see those really looking for a relationship as clingy, overbearing, needy? And how would these traits manifest themselves for you?


Originally Posted by Ginger1
I wonder the same thing as Focus does. Why does someone who really wants a relationship needy and clingy? They don't go hand in hand. I am not needy and clingy, but I would really love to share my life so someone, because it adds so much. There is definitely an in between. I don't think there is nature in those who want to share their lives with someone. That's a pretty broad generalization.


I didn't write that or state that very well at all. It's not at all simply someone wanting an R that that repels me. That's not it at all - it's how they act. It's someone who can't be by themselves, someone who is too anxious, is too excited, and acts clingy, etc. It's that type of thing that pushes me back. So if she is like "I'm pretty busy this week but maybe we can get together over the weekend" i'm fine with it, but if she's like "I can meet you anytime this week" or "I can cancel the plans I have so we can go out" and maybe those are even bad examples but I guess what I'm trying or even struggling to explain is someone who is happy with their life but is willing to add to it I'm fine with, someone who is not happy unless they have a BF, wants me to make them happy, make their life, etc. really puts me off - as well as other things.

I can just sense it - sometimes it's overtly clear. I had one woman, several actually, who as soon as I'd pick up my phone or logon to Facebook within minutes there would be a message - "Hi how are you, what are you up to?" It got so I didn't even want to log on anymore. I finally turned off messager so they could not see when I was on. It's being too available, it's wanting too much. Now, this girl was smart enough to back off some - and I did finally say, "are you stalking me or something, seems like you know when i pick up my phone," but I caught it again this weekend as she's really trying to get me to do that trip that I mentioned to Nashville to record. Yes, she's being nice, but she also knows Wild Girl is not currently in the picture and I think she thinks this is an opportunity. Now, I also only find her partly physically attractive. She's not the greatest kisser or intimately either. Personality wise her and I connect well, and I know we'll have fun together. I just don't know that I have more than friendship feelings for her.

So I don't know - i'm the broken one here - you guys tell me. I just get this uncomfortable feeling in my gut - a feeling that I don't at all get with Wild Girl and some others. A feeling that this does not feel good, I feel cornered and pressured and want space. BACK OFF!

Ginger, it's hard to tell just from knowing you here - plus you are much more honest and open here and the things you may say to us you would not to others. That said, I think it comes across that you really want an R. I know I've said that before to you. I know for sure some of your previous guys have sensed it. It remains to be seen if current guy is starting to. It stinks, it sux, you should be able to be honest, yet with some people - including guys like me - it can be the kiss of death.

I hope that clarifies better - Suffice to say, I'm not at all claiming of feeling that anyone wanting an R pushes me away and/or is needy or clingy. Some clearly are, but not even close to all.

Originally Posted by focus22
And what is it about the not knowing that troubles you? How do you know what it going to happen next?


I've always been this way. Does that make me controlling? And it's not just with Rs it's with life. I am a planner. I don't at all like it when things don't go well or go as planned. Early in my work life if projects would not be going well or something was wrong or off, it would really bother me, i'd not be able to sleep. I remember some 35 years ago not getting a track "right" for a recording and I could not sleep until I woke up in the middle of the night, drove the studio and re-did the part. Now I'm not nearly that OCD these days, but it's an example. Again, perhaps not the best example but with Wild Girl, if she would just say something like "Don, I'm busier, I've been hanging out with a few other people, the girls are back in school. I still want to go on the cruise with you, don't worry i won't bail on you, relax, we're good" I'd be fine - TOTALLY FINE. My fear is she's going to limp this along and bail after it's too late. The thing is, if I push her, she will bail for sure, so all I can really do is quietly try to lineup a backup and start dropping hints to the promoter I might be making a switch. My gut tells me in the meantime, whatever is going on will run it's course and we'll be fine in January.

Originally Posted by kml
It's my understanding that many Avoidants become so because they had a high maintenance parent (like a borderline, or alcoholic, or just smothering). Because of this they fear being "engulfed" in a relationship.


I've read that many times myself and can say that in my case it's clearly a piece of the puzzle that does not fit. I did not at all have the type of parents that fit the mold of an Avoidant. In fact if anything, at least my mom is avoidant herself. She nor my dad had any sort of addiction issues (other part that doesn't fit for what happened to me) neither relied on me in an unhealthy way. Just none of it. Read what the parent of an LA is supposed to look like and it's nothing like my parents.

I've never heard about the LA also not being able to relate to life struggles either. Clearly that was not my reaction to even your news KML with CMM. Perhaps like my addiction, where the main pieces fit but some of the others do not at all fit the typical addiction mode, I don't have all of the LA traits either. And I may not even be one. Remember I'm self diagnosing here. I just first came to believe this might be the case when I first read about it and that first article so clearly outlined my ex W (a love addict) and me. I was like OMG, that's US - that's ME!!!! I really do think I could and would overcome it with the right person. So far, I just don't connect with many "right" people, those I do connect with sometimes appear to be broken and unhealthy, and even the ones that do seem to come together, something falls apart.

Originally Posted by DonH
I'm hoping my lunch date for this week doesn't bail. While deep down all of this is no huge deal, I'm just wore out from it all.


And, so what do you think has happened - well sorta? Again, It's like either I can sense it, I find the wrong women, or nearly everyone does it so it's so common. Anyhow, short recap, while removing my very old profile from an OLD, had someone contact me. We had quite a bit of conversation, somewhat quick responses and very lengthy on both of our parts. We agreed to meeting, she suggested this Tuesday or Thursday for a drink. As the week went on her responses took longer to arrive and some got shorter in length. She suggested Tuesday or Thursday on this past Friday afternoon. I responded Saturday morning with Tuesday working and suggested details. I didn't hear back over the weekend and left it hang. Got a message through the system (even though I did give her my number days ago already) saying:

"Can we plan on meeting next Tuesday by chance? I have a lot going on this week! Also I will answer all of your questions and touch on the topics that we have been discussing when we meet if that’s OK too..."

Now, she is laid off and seems to have nothing but time on her hands. I'm going to take her at face value here but something just tells me we will never end up meeting. Let's see if I'm right or wrong. I just get the feeling something is spooking her, she's met someone else, or she just likes the attention or who knows what. Just something as a simple one hour meeting for a drink needs to be put off for a week? Odd, and certainly not the actions of someone anxious to meet me.

As for Wild Girl, no call and not even a response to my text on Sunday. I won't go into all of the details of why I suspect or perhaps even know (okay very strongly suspect) but I'm near positive she had a sleep over with someone on Saturday and into Sunday. Her presence or lack of on social media is somewhat a giveaway. She has even said as much when with me. She may have been with him when I texted or she just didn't want to talk with me after a weekend with someone else. As I wrote today on another thread, at this point, I just want this cruise to go through - for all sorts of reasons. After that, whatever - bye. I am back to looking for a replacement and may test the waters or at least let out a few comments that I might need to ask for tickets to be done with a new name and see what kind of a response or as I fear, what kind of blow back and financial hit I get back.

That cloud that I felt move in over my head two or three weeks ago now just doesn't seem to want to move on. I have thoughts on that too but this has already gotten far too long!

Comments are always welcome. I'm going to respond to the new OLD girl tonight. Any suggestions on that are welcome.


DonH
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Me 56
WAW-EXW 55
Met 11/95 / Married 5/00
Bomb 6/20/05 / She Filed on 6/2/06 / Divorced on 10/9/06
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Originally Posted by focus22
There was a point in my life when a lot of difficult things happened for me (family deaths, court case against an ex work colleague, lost a job I had done for a long time and really loved, plus others), and XH was just not there for me, to give me any support. He just sort of disappeared, emotionally. In fact, it was shortly after that they As started.


I can't remember if it was you or someone else who asked me about LA and addiction being related. I again very strongly believe that what you are seeing when an addict cannot be there for family or for you when bad things happen is a function of addiction. LA for all I know may do the same but a hallmark of addiction is the booze or the drug comes before anything and everything else. I "think" I've been a LA much of my life but it was only when I was addicted to opioids that I failed to visit my wife in the hospital when she had a one night admission. I still feel bad about that to this day. It's something I never did before and never would do now that I'm clean and sober - yet in full blown addiction it wasn't even an afterthought - my addiction kept me at home with my drugs rather than visit her. That happened clearly because of addiction NOT love avoidant behavior and would never happen today - never.

KML perhaps you'll feel differently but I think addictive behaviors in this care are being confused for LA.


DonH
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Me 56
WAW-EXW 55
Met 11/95 / Married 5/00
Bomb 6/20/05 / She Filed on 6/2/06 / Divorced on 10/9/06
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My 10 cents DH she is offering an alternative day...it's not like she is saying she is busy and is not sure of when. If she offering up an alternative date and time, and it fits your schedule then make it happen. If it doesn't then suggest something different.


Married 14, Together 17
M: 44, W: 43, D: 8, D: 6
M: 46, W: 45. D: 10. D: 8 (CUR)
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You may not be an Avoidant - although if your ex was really a Love Addict, they often end up with Avoidants because they're the only ones willing to pursue the Avoidants that hard.

You may also just be prudent and encountering a lot of Clingons. Some women can be very needy and dependent, I won't deny that, and if those are the women you're cool to, there's nothing inherently wrong with that.

I'm not an Avoidant or an Love Addict, but in my old age, I find myself loving differently. Not sure I have it in me to be romantically infatuated or swept off my feet any more. I want someone stable, who appreciates me as I am, is intellectually stimulating, and at least reasonably good in bed. Speaking my love languages is a plus. If they share my sense of humor all the better. But I lost my rose colored glasses and don't really NEED someone, just like having the companionship.

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Gosh Don, so much of what you write in your past totally resonates with me (from the other side of it all).

The thing you wrote about your EX being in hospital and not visiting her...I had a similar experience. I had hurt my back quite badly (because of the stress of everything happening in my M). I had been told by the doctor I wasn't going to be able to work for 3 months, that I should be lifting anything heavier than my handbag in that period. I wasn't going to be 'better' for 6 months. I had super strong painkillers, lots of one on one physio sessions and then group physio for people with back pain/injuries (someone in my group had had the same thing as me and had been in hospital on a morphine drip). It still suffer from the pain of it 4 years on.

Right at the start of all of this, maybe just a few weeks in, XH was finishing a job. They all have a leaving party. I decide to go along as well, to be a part of it (it's an organised party, not a spur of the moment one). I've not 'slept' for more than a couple of hours a night since the start of it all - and I've not been able to 'sleep' in a bed at all, I've had to sit, immobile in a chair. I'm very, very sleep deprived and in constant pain. The pain killers I was given didn't touch the pain at all. But I go along, have as nice a time as I possibly could, and genuinely enjoy chatting to people. But they can all tell I'm very, very unwell. After a couple of hours, about 11.00pm, I suggest to XH we leave. We have to leave together as we only have one key to the place where we are staying. I give him 30 odd minutes to go round everyone and say goodbye. Then I go to look for him. Can't find him. Try to call, no answer. Two hours later, when I'm out of my mind in pain and exhaustion and really unable to speak to anyone at all by that point, he turns up. He's been taking drugs in one of the rooms. I'm just relieved to finally be leaving.

Anyway, about 6 weeks in to all of this, not having been able to sleep in my bed at all for pretty much all of that time, and not being able to 'sleep' for more than a few hours a night because of the pain, I'd booked to take part in a work event. I have taking my stall to these events down to a fine art. But it's a porter's trolley I take, it's stacked really high and it's very, very heavy. I can't drive, so I'm wheeling it to the train station, getting to the nearest train station to the event and wheeling it there.

I'm self employed, so not taking part would have meant losing the money I'd paid and on top of that, potential sales from the event. So it wasn't really an option.

I asked EX to help me get to the event and back in the car. And he flatly refused. He said he was going to be going out the previous evening. I asked if he could come and pick me up at the other end of the day and help me back.

So, it gets to about 3.30pm and I try and call him on his phone to make sure he's awake. No answer. I try another few times. Nothing. I pack up and head out, hoping he'll show up. Nothing. All the other business owners leave, they're all passing me and asking me if I need a hand. It's dark and it's cold (it's January), and I'm in **a lot** of pain, exacerbated by the cold. I don't have money for a taxi with me, and I'm thinking that if I try and get to a cashline machine or back to the train station I might miss XH. I start crying, then I stop, just totally defeated. Eventually he turns up, 90 minutes after the end of the event. No apology, no asking how I am, just a sort of air of defensiveness about him. He says he's been asleep/hung over because of the previous night.

Next time I see the person he went out with, this person looks really, really sheepish and apologetic (and he wasn't the sort to act like that).

Sorry for taking over your thread with this Don, I don't talk about this much IRL. A mix of being quite private, not wanting to come across as a 'victim', not wanting people to feel sorry for me, not wanting to talk about people (XH) behind their back and when they're not there to give their own version...that sort of thing.

Recently, I've been more taken up with the question of trying to work out why I had been attracted to XH (and probably people like him) in the past. Not any more though, those sorts of character traits really, really put me off someone, big style. But yes, why was I attracted to that? What was I looking for? Was it something that was missing in me? What questions was I trying to find the answer to? What did he give me that I thought was missing in myself?


Me: 48, XH: 42
T: 18 years, M: 15 years

EA/PA 1: 6/2012
EA/PA 2: from autumn 2012-present

BD: 5/2013
ILYBNILWY BD & left: 10/2015

OW conceived: 8/2016
Born: 4/2017

H filed: 7/2017
D final: 28/12/2017
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Originally Posted by focus22

Recently, I've been more taken up with the question of trying to work out why I had been attracted to XH (and probably people like him) in the past. Not any more though, those sorts of character traits really, really put me off someone, big style. But yes, why was I attracted to that? What was I looking for? Was it something that was missing in me? What questions was I trying to find the answer to? What did he give me that I thought was missing in myself?


Totally understand that feeling. I have bouts of that on occasion. Mine is more along the lines of "what the h3ll was I thinking?????"


Me 52, H53
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[quote Mine is more along the lines of "what the h3ll was I thinking?????"
quote]

Hahaha - me too! In retrospect I can now see what a narcissist he was and how I should have held out for someone less critical and more loving. The stupidity of youth.

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I'm pretty sure that there was very little thinking going on above my shoulders 30 years ago. laugh


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Many people, hell many of us, tend to find, seek out or at least connect with the same type of people over and over again. That's been written in the literature often.

Focus your lengthy story again certainly is indicative of addiction and the behavior addicts exhibit. Like much of all of this however it says far more about him than it does about you. Honestly, while it felt terrible to you and felt like he was doing it TO YOU, he really was just doing what addicts do. I don't excuse his behavior but I would no more take it personally for what he did than take it personally if he had epilepsy and had a seizure with you in public. I know it's hard to understand but it's just part of the disease process. It's why many say that addiction that the person refuses to get help and treatment for is an actual deal breaker for ending a marriage - much like abuse, etc. It's a terrible disease - but many of them are - cancer, heart disease, diabetes, mental illness - and yes, addiction is a disease too!

Wild Girl put a post on FB that confirmed what I was pretty sure I already knew - that she had a "date" with someone Saturday. I'm positive she would never call it a date - she was just "hanging out with a friend" - is I'm sure what she would say or would/will tell me. Here's the strange thing, her post was much like the ones she made when with me - mentioned what she did with a non descript photo and said what a great weekend she had. However, the larger part of the post showed pictures with her cousin's family and related to Sunday and Monday. But here's the really weird thing - she deleted the post by the time I went back to re-look now so I could accurately describe it to you guys. I really don't think I dreamed it - in fact I know I didn't. Yet it's gone - why? Perhaps she was drunk or drinking when it went up - it was late Monday after our Brewers and Packers both won. Or... I really wonder if she didn't get to work this morning, where the girls all gossip about their weekend and her good friends, who all know of me well, including our future cruise plans suggested, "Hey WG, do you really want a post out there like that?" or after they pried her weekend out of her the question "What about Don" came up. Who knows, I can only speculate, but it's down within 12 hours of going up. Interesting.

So, OLD girl responded right away after I said "no worries we'll just meet up next week" and that we'll touch base later in the week or this weekend. Within half an hour I had an enthusiastic response so she may not be trying to fade away just yet. Time will tell.

I just need to detach, step back, stop thinking and deal with whatever happens. This really is not me - how did I get so sucked in? I swear the only major difference between WG and nearly everyone else I've dated in the last 5 years maybe 10 is, well two things, the much, much better than typical sex and the much less pursuit and much greater independence on her part. I can't say for sure that either of those are the reason - something certainly has knocked me off my typical path and I really don't like it - not one bit. PTSD from the past perhaps? Seeing how so many here have the same things happen over and over and over again? Who knows, but just about every part of this has not been typical of or for me in many, many years and in all sorts of respects. Glad I can at least vent about it here as I'll bet I'd have worn my in person friends out by now. LOL


DonH
Midwest
Me 56
WAW-EXW 55
Met 11/95 / Married 5/00
Bomb 6/20/05 / She Filed on 6/2/06 / Divorced on 10/9/06
4 who'd qualify as GF since D & dated about 25 women since D
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