Getting Back to my Old Self

[DonH]

Thank you KML - and Ginger and Joseph as well - but I more often than not very much connect with what you say KML. As for Uncle M - while he was my favorite in that family, I've not spoken to the man in nearly 10 years, heck it might be more than that. So right or wrong, it's not any major trauma for me that he has passed. It's sad but it's not like when my guitar player friend died of the exact same thing last January. It's really a bigger deal that I'm going to walk in there and it's going to clearly be - OMG, Don is here!!!!!! I've not seen any of them in 10 plus years, or at least close to it, other than the kids.

I'm just in a funk. It's been one of those periods where everything seems to be going wrong where for June, July and August I felt better than I've felt in many years. I thought my life really was finally getting back to full on good. Guess again. Perhaps I'm just seeing the bad but it just keeps happening. I got a call to play sax on a new CD for someone I really am thrilled to play for. Again, these are not people like Billy Joel or something but she has won a Grammy (in a non-televised category), been on the Tonight Show with Leno, etc. So I'm doing the parts and that's a done deal. However, it looked like I might have the chance to meet up with all of them at really famous recording studio that I'd kill to record at. I'm a studio owner since the 1980s so for me this is a HUGE Deal. Of course, my schedule just won't allow it. I am soooooo bummed as this is what being semi-retired is all about - doing things like this. Soooooo bummed. The dates I was first given by a mutual friend would have worked but when I got the real info, they just don't. Instead I'll just do the parts in my own studio and ship off the tracks - which is very common these days. I just so would have loved to attend and be part of the full session, hang out with a small group of fun people (including another FWB that I've not seen in 8 months and not had benefits with in nearly two years) - almost as exciting as going on a week long cruise - I'm not kidding. But oh well, it's not June anymore so of course it's not going to work out.

As for Wild Girl, I think you are hitting it on the head KML. I don't take it personally, at least I'm trying not to. It's even odd because why would I care if she's not someone I really see myself falling in love with. Yet, I really, really was enjoying it. The thing is, KML you are describing her very well - right from the beginning. Early on, like within the first month I remember setting up a Sunday/Monday date with her and by Tuesday before she was hedging on it. I then stopped at her house that Thursday and she was back to hedging. Thing is, she could not even tell me why. I was like, what's up? She struggled but just could not say why she was not sure. She finally just said "I'm just tired and I get like this when I'm tired" So I left it at that, she gave me an amazing kiss goodbye, and seemed normal. Sunday came, she said she was still debating on what she wanted to do. I just said look I'm not going to beg you and this is starting to not be fun if you don't want to come out then don't. Of course she immediately then said she was and also of course we had an amazing time - really, really, really a lot of fun. So odd that it was major anxiety for her leading up to it but after she did, she was so glad and happy.

She's clearly had walls up from the start. I have to wonder if she has EVER had a regular/traditional relationship. I really don't think she has. She married her husband when she was about 25. That sounds like it was a train wreck from the start and she now says she only married him because she didn't think anyone else would want her and she didn't have selfesteam. She finally got herself out of that and a year or so later started dating the guy who recently had the baby. But even that seemed "off." I don't think he was ever referred to as her boyfriend. Perhaps I'm wrong. He then dumped her saying she was mean to him or just not nice to him. Everyone else seems to be a casual hookup thing or guys around the county. She had one in the Midwest, one that would fly her out for New Years or her birthday. She calls one of them her "besti". However, she's not seen any of them or done any of those things for over 4 years.

Remember my first words here... saying she's broken. This is what I mean. Ginger may be correct in that she's doing a slow fade but then why be so nice? That part makes no sense. Like I call once, don't even leave a VM and she's texting me back saying "sorry I missed your call, maybe we can catch up later..." etc. Why not just ignore me? Even her texts, I can tell when she's annoyed or doesn't want to talk from how she texts and this is not it - lots of "!" and lots of emjois and her typical excitement with wordy texts. So she's clearly not done with me - just not at the level she was a month or two ago.

So what would I do if I didn't have the cruise? I'd just let it go and not contact her. That's just not an option now. In fact, October 1 was the end of the promotion and the start of the 50% refund period for anyone who cancels. The flights were purchased as non-refundable - which only makes sense as we are the band and we are contracted to be there. Why purchase a higher class fare when they don't have to. So if she pulls out now, it will be a huge deal - even if I had someone just as fun to slide in her place - it would still be a huge deal to get done and I'm sure costly.

The thing is, I really deep down do think this is just her. This is how she rolls. If she was not wanting to continue she'd either say so or go no contact at all. I really can't imagine she's planning on not going in January. I think at this point she just sees me like these other guys who she will not see or talk with for months and then just start right back up. Even three weeks ago when I could tell things changed, even though she was not texting or calling, she ran right up and gave me a hug and kiss. I think to her, this is all "normal." I've had other girls like this over the years. Now Wild Girl might be an over-the-top case but, I've seen and experienced it before. I guess I mostly would just like to know where things stand. However, I don't think she knows herself - so how can she tell me? In fact, I've exhibited similar behavior myself where feelings come and go.

In many ways someone like Wild Girl is what I'd rather have - just not like this. Hope that made sense. I mean, I'm fine with casual just don't leave me guessing. Pushing or pursuing won't get me anywhere. All I can really do is just go about my life, assume we are good for January and then after that I'm guessing we'll just become friends that occasionally get together and do things but not a lot more.

Finally, KML, I have done a lot of reading on love avoidant and I fit many parts but not all. Specifically I did not have parents that exhibited the behavior that is part of this syndrome. And who knows, if someone was pursuing me heavily I might be doing exactly what Wild Girl is. I don't know how much of meeting her and having someone to date regularly, talk for hours on the phone with, etc. had to do with providing me with an awesome summer. All I do know is now that I've had a taste of that life again, I'm disappointed it's no longer happening. Right/wrong or screwed up as it might be, I just don't often connect with someone at the level that I did Wild Girl. I feel dysfunctional just saying that but it's the truth - don't as me why - it just is.

As an aside, I found out a little bit more about the friend of a friend who is recently D'd. Wow, doctorate, associate or assistant dean of a nursing program at a very prestigious private Catholic college. Sort of the opposite of Wild Girl. LOL. I get the feeling she might be a little too snooty for me, but totally just a guess. I'm not easily intimidated, but with her. hmmmmmm. No clue when or even if we'll end up meeting but from outward appearances she seems like a real qualify woman.

[kml]

Just want to reassure you Don you've got multiple things going in your favor that make you a good catch. I'd be thrilled to date a guy as financially stable and responsible as you. Not a single one of my post-divorce dates comes even close. (Examples - the restaurant owner who skipped his insurance payment because he "couldn't afford it" and ended up having a leak from a coffee machine that flooded the business downstairs and the resulting financial ruin ended his restaurant. The exterminator who ran his own business but never paid taxes - he'll be in for a surprise when he tries to collect Social Security. The Love Avoidant guy who took a very early retirement payout from his city job at the height of a market run-up then lost most of it in a crash - at least he was responsible and purchased a condo outright so he has a home but had to go back to work to support himself at a much lower wage. )

As someone who has saved for retirement, lived within my means, have no debt other than a modest mortgage (I owe less than a third of the value of my home and it's at a nice low interest rate) - my life would be significantly enhanced just by being with a guy whose finances didn't stress me out.

[DonH]

Thanks KML - I'm having one of "those" days so it was nice to read your comments. The thing is, while my financial responsibility may appeal to you, I'm not sure you and I are the norm when it comes to this area. Something like more than half the people in America don't have enough savings to cover 6 months. I think I recently heard that near half of all millennials (or perhaps anyone????) could not last a month without income??? So while I and perhaps you could last double digit years, most can't and worse yet, many simply don't care. Sad but true. So you find that trait in me to be a good catch, I'm not sure other do - or by reality, they clearly don't.

So I finally talked with wild girl last night. Seemed to pretty much be the same person she's always been yet her actions just seem different. This cuts both ways, she's always been very clear, we are just hanging out, not my girlfriend, I'm not her boyfriend, rarely like to admit we were dating. That's never changed from pretty much day one but her actions were to call all the time, text, send pictures. None of that has happened in the last near month now. She's clearly struggling with something - I can just tell by the way she talked. Still, we might get together this Sunday otherwise for sure talk more as she had just gotten off over 12 hours at work and I was tired as well since it was past 11 when we finally connected. And like in past times, she ended up texting me after we hung up. I really don't get it and it's just taking or taken much of the fun out of it. I know it could come back but now I'm the one losing ambition to reach out. Why is this so hard?

I made a comment on Jospeh's thread about my totally inadvertent return to OLD - well not return per say but quick drive by. I kept getting these emails that I'd just delete all the time. They didn't come all that often but enough that I finally tended to them and sure enough I still had a couple of profiles that while not truly "active" where still out there. As I was deleting or trying to figure out how to, I got a quick message from someone. Of course when you are least looking... LOL, That somehow turned into a lot of lengthy emails with both of us sharing a lot. She seems like very much my type - which often means a broken train wreck - but, like with Wild Girl, it has been fun. Amazing how it was very easy to find her online and I now fear she may have found me as well - which can scare some people off due to something I have in my past from 9 years ago. I'm very open about it but I understand how it can be scary if someone happens upon it and it's not something I bring up that early on. I don't know for sure that she found it but poof, I've heard zero now for a day and a half - compared to her responding back in hours if not minutes.

Do i really care, no, not all that much in specifics. But in general, this all just gets so darn old. I've always been very pessimistic about finding something again and I swear it really is starting to seem like a needle in a haystack. It's almost like I have to decide, do I want to live a pretty happy life with not a lot of down side but do it by myself or get that bit of extra upside followed by drama, depression, anxiety, etc. There is a reason I've been single so long and this is it. Yet it's not deep down how I want to live my life - safe all the time. But this is no fun either.

I know I'm just in a one or two day funk here and I'll pop back up but darn it anyhow, this was such a fun summer and I really want that back - not just in terms of Wild Girl but in terms of all of it. Guess God and life has other plans at the moment.

[Coconut]

Hey Don,

I'm sorry to hear that things with WG aren't living up to what you would like them to be, it does suck. One thing that I think a lot of us share are high standards, just by being here we have gained a fundamental understanding of what a healthy R looks like, how people in a healthy R should treat each other, and I don't think there are a lot of other people who have that knowledge. They tend to just wing it, causing them to be all over the place, which can be fun at times, but also can be frustrating.

I hope she can work through whatever she is dealing with (or has changed) and it becomes fun for you again. At least you know to, and are able to, step back and give her space, that might be the only thing that has kept "it" (whatever it is) from ending. Do you know if most of her past R lasted longer or less than where you two are? This could be a pattern for her.

[DonH]

Do you know if most of her past R lasted longer or less than where you two are? This could be a pattern for her.

Oh for certain it's a pattern. I really have to wonder if she's ever had a healthy relationship in her life. This is something I brought up here after nearly day one. Nearly everyone is/was a "buddy" or "hanging out" etc. Even the only guy I think she feels she ever loved I don't think had a traditional R with her. She is EXTREMELY independent - which is part of her appeal as she doesn't at all need a man. After KML re-brought up the whole love avoidant thing, as i re-looked at all of that, it's totally clear. As strange as it may sound, I think she pushed herself out of her comfort zone with me already. I don't know if she's scared of being hurt, dumped, intimacy, getting close, or all of the above. It's all clearly there and I knew it all along. That doesn't mean it still wasn't a lot of fun while it lasted. That's my point. But dang it gets old having to always find someone new. That was fun years ago, just not anymore. Now, all that said, part of her "pattern" I strongly believe also involves coming back. I've had other FWBs like this and something tells me she will drift back in as unexpectedly as she drifted out. I just have to either decide I can live with or cut her off.

So, to be clear, it's not Wild Girl that I miss near as much as just the whole rigmarole that upsets me. It's no different than all that you've gone through, or Ginger or any of us. That's why I pretty much had given up and really didn't try at all for several years - well didn't try much anyhow. But then you get a taste of it and it's like dang, I've been missing out - but that means both missing out on the fun as well as "missing out" (not) on the pain.

I also forgot to comment/report on the funeral for ex w's brother. I was never nervous, or worried or anything of the kind. That said, my assumptions were wrong. I assumed people would be very surprised that I was there, would be rather happy to see me and my ex would be very uncomfortable. It didn't appear I was correct on any of those! While everyone was very nice and welcoming, I didn't get the feeling they were all that surprised nor happy to see me and THEY were a little uncomfortable. Ex W on the other hand came right up to me and gave me a hug. I've not seen in or hugged her in I'm betting 8 years. The people that were there that I still see on a regular basis, including step son and daughter were their normal selves. I was very much my normal self. Of course it was a funeral so it's not like we were at a wedding or something - just was, I don't know, not what I expected. They were all friendly but almost like because it was the right thing to do? I don't know, just not what I was expecting.

As for ExW she does not seem to be aging well at all. She was walking very stiff and when i commented she said it was again her back - something she struggled with throughout our time together. She is still with the guy she had the affair on me with 13 years ago now. I don't say this to be snarky at all but she is just not aging well. If I had to guess she is really struggling with menopause. She was very puffy and just not at all the beautiful, vibrant person I knew. She always has had health issue and they may be catching up with her. Steroids can also have the effect that I saw. I didn't feel "good" about this mind you but it's not like she was the same hottie I married. Then again, we all age and she is 54. I'm just blessed with great genes and look much younger than the 55 I am.

And finally, the OLD girl actually did message me back and wants to meet for a drink or lunch next week! LOL. It's soooo funny how this happened as I was not at all trying nor am I back to OLD. We have hit it off well over email, including multiple shared interested - aviation, travel, etc. She is totally my type looks wise. I think she may be yet another of the somewhat outgoing, free-spirit, type women but who knows. I was mostly bummed and upset because I assumed by past was coming back to bight me - something I understand but now do informational talks about. Drug addition is a disease yet even someone like me, clean for 9 years, can be looked at differently. I also see she had to take out a restraining order on someone a few months ago so I'm sure she is very careful - or at least should be - and rightfully so. I told her about the cruise and she responded how jealous she is and wished she could get an offer or a deal like that. Oh girl, you have no idea... You never know what the future may bring!

[JujuB]

Hey don

Congratulations on 9 years clean. I think you are a very strong and honest person on here and i respect your posts very much. I know you have felt that you are an emotionally/committment avoidant personality. Do you find any relationship between that and your past addiction? Did the addiction contribute to that in any way or was it there to begin with and perhaps led to the addiction?

My ex was/is a secret and very high functioning alcoholic but im pretty sure also had a pain pill addiction (700 dollars a week). I am very much afraid of addiction now. For me, it would be a red flag because i am afraid of that coldness or avoidance or emptyness (hard to describe) that went with it.

And heres something weird. When i was dating, i met a guy whose demeanor reminded me of my ex. I cant put my finger on it. He was attractive, successful, strong, interesting. Hero type of profession. But something about the way he was detached. Like he was flirty. He kept the date going. But i could sense something .i knew he would be a distancer. When i asked, he admitted to having a problem with addiction in the past.


Regarding the funeral, i think dont think much about anything. Mourning a family member often makes everything else surreal. People are usually too affected by grief to really think or focus much on who is there.

What you are saying makes a lot of sense about wild girl. You suspected that going in though. I think its a good idea to keep your options open now and date! Wild girl is distancing and giving signs of fading out, so this is fine. Maybe she self sabatoges? Maybe she doeant want a relationship? Regardless it doeant matter. Her actions do. And the beat thing is to go by what works for you.

[DonH]

I know you have felt that you are an emotionally/commitment avoidant personality. Do you find any relationship between that and your past addiction? Did the addiction contribute to that in any way or was it there to begin with and perhaps led to the addiction?

No I don't believe it did nor have I seen any reported correlation of being avoidant causing addiction. Very clearly in my case it did not. Now, on the reverse, addiction often will cause people to pull back, retreat, give up friends, family, loved ones. They most certainly retreat into their addiction. So if you saw this in your husband it is very likely caused by his addiction. That said, being avoidant does not, in my view, cause addiction.

As for me, I've long had these traits - way before I knew what they were. I've always been very independent, enjoy being on my own, very selective of friends, etc. Now, with people that I connect with I am extremely outgoing, friendly, etc. I am also that way with people I am interested in romantically. However, for whatever reason, one of two things have been common - I pursue, pursue, pursue, and remain very interested right until the person says "Okay, I'm yours, you have me, I want to be with you, let's get serious" after which I sometimes to often lose interest at that point. The other thing that has happened is I can stay invested so long as pressure is not put on me - like where is this going, let's take this to the next level and especially "I want to get married again, that's the end goal" - it's not for me.

I was thinking today how sick I am of this always ending this way. I feel so much like Ginger has said - waiting for the next shoe to drop. It always seems to happen - just like it has with Wild Girl. Even as things are just starting out with this OLD lady that I'm supposed to meet with week - I'm already waiting for her to ghost me, pull back, say she's changed her mind or whatever. And that's because that's what always seems to happen. The thing is, I wonder if it's because I'm choosing people who are often free spririt types, bounce from one thing to another, are not looking for commitments themselves. Those who are really looking for a relationship often turn me off. I see them as clingy, or over bearing, needy, etc. The thing is, those types likely would not do what those I find an interest in do. By their nature, they are all in, clingy, needy, really want someone. That's somewhat how my ex W was. So should I be at all surprised when the types of women I am attracted to get a whim to move onto the next best thing. Not sure how this all came to me but it did and I wonder if I'm not on track with that.

What you are saying makes a lot of sense about wild girl. You suspected that going in though. I think its a good idea to keep your options open now and date! Wild girl is distancing and giving signs of fading out, so this is fine. Maybe she self sabotages? Maybe she doesn't want a relationship? Regardless it doesn't matter. Her actions do. And the beat thing is to go by what works for you.

I think she does self-sabotage. I think that's been her all along. She's long said she's not looking for an R - those were her words though while her actions were very different. What she is saying really has not changed, what has changed is before, while she was saying we are not dating (just hanging out, etc) she was very into me - likely too much so. Her words kind of said one thing while her actions said another. I'd say her actions are now more matching her words. It's just disappointing as it was a lot of fun and I was hoping it would continue. Now being connected with this cruise adds another level to it. It's all guesses and mind reading but I have a strong feeling she's met someone and has done this weekend what her and I did over the summer. I'm betting it will be another casual thing and likely drop, but something tells me she's doing with him what she was doing with me. She really is broken - look at my early comments and I used those words. Still I got sucked in because it was fun - and well to be honest, the amazing sex didn't hurt. Knowing her family also helped. I guess just as much, it's the not knowing. I've never been good with that in all aspects of life. I want to know what's going to happen next. If I knew, that would be helpful to me. As it is, I'm left guessing.

I'm hoping my lunch date for this week doesn't bail. While deep down all of this is no huge deal, I'm just wore out from it all. Who would ever have thought that at age 55 I'd be going through this high school-like crap? Do people ever grow up? I expect teenagers to ghost and change their mind and have a new boyfriend or girlfriend every month, etc. But at this age, really? Is it too much to ask to just find someone who is as honest as I am and won't play these games? Clearly it is - just look at all of the stories on here!

[focus22]

Those who are really looking for a relationship often turn me off. I see them as clingy, or over bearing, needy, etc. The thing is, those types likely would not do what those I find an interest in do. By their nature, they are all in, clingy, needy, really want someone.

I guess just as much, it's the not knowing. I've never been good with that in all aspects of life. I want to know what's going to happen next. If I knew, that would be helpful to me. As it is, I'm left guessing.

Don, these sentences really jumped out at me. I'd be interested in finding out more. Why do you see those really looking for a relationship as clingy, overbearing, needy? And how would these traits manifest themselves for you?

And what is it about the not knowing that troubles you? How do you know what it going to happen next?

[kml]

It's my understanding that many Avoidants become so because they had a high maintenance parent (like a borderline, or alcoholic, or just smothering). Because of this they fear being "engulfed" in a relationship.

Often the tip-off that you're dating an Avoidant is when something happens in your life where most people would offer condolences or assistance, the Avoidant goes silent. I've told three of my Avoidant friends or exes about the boyfriend's cancer. Two have said nothing, one has just forwarded me a couple of political items he knew I would enjoy.

[Ginger1]

I wonder the same thing as Focus does. Why does someone who really wants a relationship needy and clingy? They don't go hand in hand. I am not needy and clingy, but I would really love to share my life so someone, because it adds so much. There is definitely an in between. I don't think there is nature in those who want to share their lives with someone. That's a pretty broad generalization.