DNJ, thank you for that. It gave me a bit to think about. I think you're right...I could shift my thoughts a little and be done with her, but I'm kidding myself if I think that would stick. I'm still back and forth and I know I will be for a little while. I'm getting better, but its a slow process. I am going to work on moving forward while standing still. Its so refreshing to chat with you guys who understand what this is like. I have family and friends that support me, but they don't really understand so there's only so much I can open up to them. Sometimes I read responses and my heart just melts and it feels like a weight is lifted as the realization hits that SOMEONE understands and has been there. Thats how I'm feeling today. Here's why...
W and I agreed to swap the kids week on week off. She moved in to a rent house about a month ago, but most of that time they have been with me. Since her moving out, my head has cleared a little and I've been able to detach a little. I didn't realize how negatively living with her in this condition was affecting me. I'm a bit of a homebody. I enjoy going out and doing stuff and having a good time, but I MOSTLY enjoy being with my family and enjoying the comfortable home that we work hard for and share. Lately, I hadn't felt comfortable coming home and didn't know what to do with myself once there. Since her moving out, I've been looking forward to coming home again. I mean I don't like the family/marital situation, but at least I can feel comfortable at home again and start to heal a little so I can start moving forward. I thought I was already, but I keep hitting points where I realize that I wasn't but maybe am now. That's happened several time, actually. That, and mostly the kids have been with me which I really enjoy. We recently started swapping them, and its been hard for me being without them. We've grown really close recently. We already were, but we've become even closer. The house is so quiet when they aren't here...
So, this weekend started with the kids leaving for her house. That and the expectation that she has a family reunion next weekend in which she will be taking them...which is a double blow for me. This will be the first family reunion that I will not be going to, and I'm pretty close with her family. That AND that means that I'll actualy be without the kids for a week and a half instead of just a week. So, again, the weekend started with W coming to pick them up. The pickup itself went ok, other than it tearing me up inside watching her drive away with them. I then went to meet her brother (we are still close...I mean I've known them all for 20 years) to go watch a band play. That was fun and helped a lot.
Today I planned on going to one of my friends bday party for his 1 year old. I have known this friend for about 18 years, so him and his wife are close family friends. We don't see them often, but we consider them close friends. So just going to this party by myself without my family was a little sad, but I decided to go anyway and try not to let being solo bug me. When I was getting ready, S called me and said he was going to play volleyball but had left his shoes at my house. He wanted to know if I'd be getting out at all and if maybe I'd meet him so he could get his shoes. Now, before I go on I should say that I have not seen Ws new place. I know the address, but I have not been there. She has not invited me and I really kind of don't want to see it. I just think not having to think about her place and having a visual of it to think about is probably for the best...one less thing to have to get over. Having said that, her place is about 2 blocks away from the bday party I'm about to go to so I offer to just deliver the shoes to her house.
I get there and decide to go ahead and go to the door. As I approach the door I realize that I am about to knock on the door to a house that my family lives in. It feels surreal. I instantly think of how W just comes in when she comes over. I have never thought anything about it as that is how it has always been...her knocking at the door would be weird. But, here I am about to knock on the door. My son answers the door and I step inside. I look around and it feels weird to see some of my furniture/decorations mixed with stuff I haven't seen in a house I've never been to...and a place where at the moment, the rest of my family is living. My son shows me his room. I look around and see all his old stuff, a few new things, and the computer I just built for him. This is MY sons room in this strange house. Then my daughter shows me hers. The feeling is the same. Apparently W is in the shower. I tell the kids I love them and will see them soon and go ahead and leave before W is out of the shower. Then on to the birthday party where I get to explain a couple of times why W and kids aren't with me to a few different people at the party who i haven't seen in a while. I don't give a lot of details other than W has moved out and the kids are with her this weekend. When they ask what happened all I can say is, not sure...she wasn't happy and said she needed to go find herself.
So the visit itself was non eventful, but now I am left with the image of my family living in a cute little house over by the local college. I swear...I'll have some days that I almost feel normal again and can't imagine wanting to go back to her. Then I have other days like today that I just want to crawl in bed and cry like a baby. I don't, but that's what I want to do. I'll be ok...think I just needed to vent a little.
I completely understand your heart melting and a weight being lifted. Having someone understand what you are going through, someone believe what you are going through, is so helpful. There are lots of us here, and we get it.
I am glad my words were received well. It is good that you can see your own back and forth feelings towards W. They will come in waves, lessening in frequency and amplitude as time goes on.
Boy, I could have wrote the same thing about home and family life. I am a bit of a homebody too.
My kids do not go over to OM’s house and I have full custody. So I have never experienced the swapping of kids or seeing thier second home. The way you illustrated it, so surreal. That is a lot to accept and get used to. However, think about what it meant to your son and daughter to be able to show their Dad their rooms. I am sure they were happy to share that part of their life with you.
You might even feel a bit better knowing what their rooms look like. Furnished well, toys, computer, and some familiar idems for them.
Good on you going to the Bday party. Those questions about your situation, yes I got those too. As if this can be summed up and explained in a couple of easy sentences. What you replied was fine. People, who have not experienced this, cannot and will not understand.
Hang in there sjohns6. This is a good place to vent.
I have a question.
Originally Posted by sjohns6
So, this weekend started with the kids leaving for her house. That and the expectation that she has a family reunion next weekend in which she will be taking them...which is a double blow for me. This will be the first family reunion that I will not be going to, and I'm pretty close with her family. That AND that means that I'll actualy be without the kids for a week and a half instead of just a week.
The family reunion next weekend is happening - so the expectation is that she will be going and taking them? Is that all planned out or are you thinking that is what is going to happen?
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
But like what DNJ said about how it seemed important to the kids
It may be their way of saying
Hey dad everything will be okay
We can all fake it until we make it
And yes do not allow variances to custody unless explicitly agreed upon
Great if you guys can be flexible
But that has to go both ways
And never assume
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
That’s probably a good way for me to look at the kids situation...happy that they are happy even when they are there. I am struggling with that. I know its right and I am trying to ACT that way. The selfish part of me would prefer that it not be good so that they want to come home and not like it there. I love my children and I know they need their mother so I am trying not to be that way. Well, I guess I mean not THINK/FEEL that way. I don’t act that way outwardly.
And to your question, the family reunion is happening. The 3 of them fly out Friday morning and don’t return until Tuesday mid day. I did not add that they will be coming home Wednesday night (of this week) to stay with me to break up the week a little. I hate having to do this with them. I mean W leaves and now I have a place I live and she has a place she lives...but the kids have to learn to live in 2 places. I hate hearing people talk about what schedule is good for the kids. None of it is good for the kids...it’s what’s better for the parents cause they miss their time with the kids and neither wants to give them up. Sometimes it seems to me that the kids are more mature than the adults.
Gordie,
I don’t actually have a custody agreement. We aren’t officially anything other than married. W moved out and we split our finances, but that’s about it. No talk of official separation or divorce. She just needed to go find herself. I have no idea what she sees as her future...if she even thinks about that. The agreement we worked out for the kids was just a verbal one...and so far they have been with me most of the time. I recognize that this leaves me vulnerable, but right now I don’t want to push for anything else. I think if I have to start setting boundaries because she is taking advantage I make look in to something more official, but so far she has been pretty fair. I am allowing the extra visitation for the family reunion thing because so far she has not seen them that much over the last month...and she agreed to let them stay on Wednesday so as not to be a week and a half straight. I feel like that is both of being flexible. I of course don’t like it, but think its fair (as fair can be in this situation anyways).
Early on, right after BD, W was still pretty nice to me and it seemed that I could tell she still loved me but was just confused. Even a year ago she was talking about maybe going to an IC and maybe getting on some AD to help with her ups and downs. That never happened but she was thinking about it which suggested she knew she had a problem. Then several months back she even initiated a R talk where she said she recognized that she had been looking at things wrong and was treating me bad and wanted to work on things. Now, only a few months later, she has moved out and barely speaks to me. She might text or call to discuss swapping the kids, but that’s it. I know it hasn’t been that long since she moved out, but she doesn’t initiate any conversations with me at all. Even if she did decide that our relationship had run its course, how could she not want to talk to me at all. I mean I don’t get the impression she is mad at me and avoiding me, it just seems like contacting me isn’t something that interests her at all. Of course that shouldn’t be surprising given that this is MLC, but it is an ongoing effort to wrap your head around this stuff. She has never even blamed me for anything. People say to listen to what they complain about and fix the things that need fixing and be the best version of yourself. Well what if they didn’t even complain about you? I didn’t give her any reason to leave. In her mind we must just not be right for each other any more and got together too young because she can’t figure out a way to be in love with me anymore. It’s madness. I still work on me for me (since I was given nothing else), but it makes it all the harder because there is absolutely no closure.
Onward and upward I guess. I think I’ll make a gumbo tonight...
You must be awesome if she never complains about you
Seriously I think it is safe to say
She is only thinking of one person right now and that is she
What you are thinking or feeling mean nothing to her right now
And when you think she is doing something or not doing something because of something you did
Take a deep breath and remember that it probably has nothing to do with you at all
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
I know what you mean about wanting the kids to not like it with W so they will want to spend more time with you.
I felt that too after BD when my W wanted to see her kids at OM’s house. Outwardly I acted, but inside I hurt and wanted the kids too hate it there. Well her visits didn’t last very long, and I watch the hurt in my children’s eyes as their mother didn’t want them anymore.
I got it. I found grace and forgiveness. Imagine how messed up you need to be to throw away your own children. What else can I do, but forgive. She doesn’t know it and she probably doesn’t deserve it. It doesn’t matter, forgiveness is for me. I love her enough to forgive and let her go. And hope she reaches out to her children.
Children have two parents, they love each one, and they do not want to choose. They get half of themselves from each, they know this. They do not want to dislike “half” of themselves.
You are on the right path. I see the passion when you talk about “what schedule is good for the kids”. Damn straight, none of this is good for the kids!
So you make it the best you can. You can see clearly sjohns6. Your kids are counting on you.
Keep walking the path.
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
This kind of pendulum swinging is a hallmark of MLC. I remember as my H was entering the tunnel, he would still hug me sometimes or be like the old H for a few minutes. As they go deeper into the cave, they stop doing that. But now, five years in, he starts being more like H for a few minutes once in a while. It's like the same thing on the way in and on the way out of the tunnel.
That is pretty bold of me to say "on the way out" for my sitch, but hope springs eternal!
The point is that everything you are seeing sounds TOTALLY normal and by MLC standards, you just started. She has to go all the way down to the bottom of the tunnel before she turns back so you don't have to worry about how it makes no sense. It doesn't! Heartsblessing has a good article on the "first awakening," and you are not near that yet but I feel like it might help you to read it just to understand that part of things.
Also I totally agree with DnJ (as usual) about wanting my kids to not enjoy being with H. I am always longing for him to take an interest in their lives, but then when he does do something with one of them (usually D9), my kids get mean (or meaner) towards me and I turn into a jealous child.
So what I do with that is -- I forgive myself and I go to my church (when it's empty) and cry for a while and explain all of it to God and then I sit there until he gives me peace about it, and I return with the understanding that that's part of the cross I have to bear to keep standing. The kids will know the truth about both of you in the end.
Last edited by Gerda; 07/24/1802:08 PM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Thank you guys for the support. Its funny that I almost have to write my situation out before I can view it from a MLC perspective. Until then its just my life, but once written down I can re-read it and am able to see all the MLC stuff glaring out at me.
Thanks Gerda, I think I've read just about all the Hearts Blessing stuff. Lots of good stuff. I think I need to re-read some of it. Its crazy how many times I might read those kinds of articles and get something new out of it each time. I am able to relate to different aspects as time goes by and my situation changes. I do realize that I must still be closer to the beginning of this, but I'm nearing the 2 year mark and that realization is such a hard one to come to. I know you are past the 5 years mark so I almost feel bad complaining about 2 years.
I believe the kids already know the important truths. They love their mother and want her to be part of their life and don't complain much, but I can tell that they view me as the stable parent. I pay attention, W does not. I actively engage, W fakes it as more of a responsibility rather than an active give and take relationship. She used to be a lot better at it of course.
Skipped making gumbo last night but got everything ready for tonight.
W texted me yesterday telling me that both of the kids wanted to come over and stay the night. They were supposed to come over tonight to break up the Ws week and a half with them, so this would be 2 days instead. I of course said that was fine. As you can guess, I was very happy to have them come over a night early. They came home and we watched shows and laughed together. Got a pizza and just chilled out together. Both were excited that I had cleaned their rooms while they were gone. And now we have tonight too.
I can't help think about the fact that although I've had them most of the time the last 6 weeks, they have never asked to go to Ws house. Not once. They seem fine being there as in they have most of the comforts there that they have at my house (home), but they have never ASKED to go there. I also wonder about W. I of course can not mind read (nor do I want to see whats really going on up there), but she did not seem bothered at all about them wanting to come home a day early. I keep thinking that although she is a little laxed in her responsibilities as a mom, that she is still more or less keeping up mostly. Not super mom like she was, but still a good mom. The fact that the kids ask to come home and she seems fine with it seems to illustrate otherwise to me...even if at surface it all looks kind of normal. Well, as normal as you can get in this kind of situation anyways.
W looked tired when she came over. So, advice time if you don't mind. I do not initiate communication with her. Do not pursue at all. I have not initiated any R talks in months. I do, however, act nice when I see her. When she was over dropping off the kids I asked her if she wanted any pizza or a drink and was upbeat. Not overly, just in a normal way. She of course declined saying she wanted to get back and rest, but should I be doing that? I feel like I am making an offer that I would to anyone, but I would hate to think that my offer for a drink or pizza might be considered as pursuing. I am not sure it matters as I think I just want to be myself as that is what I feel comfortable with, but I also realize that I am still healing and I don't want to inadvertently get caught up in pursuit mode without realizing that's what I'm doing. Even though it is hard for me to imagine a path to reconciliation, I'd be lying to myself if I said that somewhere within me I didn't still want that. It seems like a deeply buried desire, but I know its in there. I also know I can't do anything to make it go faster, but I want to make sure I'm not prolonging it either. Mostly I am doing fine, but I still try to make sure that I handle my interactions with her the best way possible. I realize that being around her is a trigger for me so I do analyze my behavior around her.
Thank you for any thoughts you might have. I realize this is probably trivial, but still something I'm thinking about.
sjohns6 - if you are thinking about something, it is not trivial – it is important.
You are correct that pursuing behavior and pressure can have the unwanted effect of pushing her away. Pretty cool that you are considering that you may be caught up in pursuit without realizing it.
You offered pizza as you would to anyone. No real problem there for rational people.
You stated - She of course declined. Why “of course”? Did you expect her to decline? How about “She of course accepted”. Is that not a possibility in your mind?
Expectations.
She is irrational, so it will be very hard to get a read on if she would or would not want to do something.
I think you would like to offer - being nice to her. Try to do it the least pursuing manner, letting her think it is her idea kind of a way.
Maybe something leading like:
- There is lots of pizza.
- Have you eaten yet?
It is not an actual invitation and if she wants she can ask or offer to join the family. This also gives you an out if her response is argumentative or such.
This might help with letting go of expectations. You hope she wants to join you and kids. You are just asking if she is hungry and seeing where it goes from there.
Nice to see you got two nights with yiur kids instead of one. Don’t think you expected that.
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
I can't help think about the fact that although I've had them most of the time the last 6 weeks, they have never asked to go to Ws house. Not once. They seem fine being there as in they have most of the comforts there that they have at my house (home), but they have never ASKED to go there. I also wonder about W. I of course can not mind read (nor do I want to see whats really going on up there), but she did not seem bothered at all about them wanting to come home a day early. I keep thinking that although she is a little laxed in her responsibilities as a mom, that she is still more or less keeping up mostly. Not super mom like she was, but still a good mom. The fact that the kids ask to come home and she seems fine with it seems to illustrate otherwise to me...even if at surface it all looks kind of normal. Well, as normal as you can get in this kind of situation anyways.
Hey buddy...
Just remember that YOU are their home...
Not where....
Who...
And that who, is you...
Keep doing things for you.
It gets easier over time...
Doesn't mean it doesn't hurt still, just gets easier....
I love what Mach said here, that you are their home. How beautiful and how true. I think you would be a very good home for kids to have, they are so lucky to have you. And the one benefit of being apart is that they can see your light more clearly. With an in=house prodigal, it can be harder for the kids to understand the difference.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Thank you guys for the support. Needed it again today.
DNJ, thanks for the advice. To clarify, W was actually trying to take a pepperoni off the piece that S was eating, and thats when I offered the pizza. So, I guess that isn't really much of a pursuit. And, yes...I did expect her to say no since she hasn't said yes in so long. I guess I shouldn't be having expectations. She did stay for dinner last night, but more about that in a minute...
Mach, thank you for that reminder. Home is with people, not a place. That is something that I need to continue saying to myself as I find it hard not to be jealous of the time she spends with the kids. I don't want them to get used to being at her house, but I know I need to in order to keep a healthy mind and stay strong...and to continue moving forward. I realize that I have a bit of a PTSD response to things still. I am not having all the triggers I had before, but I still have some to work through.
Gerda, thanks for stopping by with support. I love hearing from you. I try really hard to be the lighthouse...whats hard is keeping that light bright for the world to see. Sometimes I feel like it goes a bit dim with my mood. Yeah, I think the kids do see a big difference between us. Check out what happened this weekend...
So, kids are supposed to be with W in NY for a family reunion. I have not been looking forward to it as it means over a week without the kids AND this is the first family reunion with her family that I wouldn't be at. She came to pick up the kids Thursday night for a Friday morning departure. On Friday morning I text the kids that I love them and to have a good time. After a little bit, they each texted me back sounding pretty frustrated. Apparently they showed up at the airport at 7am for an 8:30 flight, but it turns out she had purchased 8:30PM flights so they were VERY early. W started trying to get an earlier flight so as not to have to wait all day. She got them on standby for a 10:00, but it was too full. She got new tickets for an 11:00, but it got cancelled for a 12:30. This happens every hour until 4. Then their 4:00 got postponed for a 5 with a 90% chance of cancellation. W decides to quit for the day and to just fly out Saturday morning instead. They then get up Saturday morning and go to the airport, but they are too late for the flight and there aren't any more for the day (that they can get). So, W decides never mind on the trip and they go home. I know all this cause D was texting me throughout the day. None of that would have ever happened if I were there and I think they all know that. I am a planner. I make lists and itineraries. Not that I print stuff out and hand it out to everyone, I am just prepared all the time. Its my nature. I don't even know how W would have purchased PM tickets a month in advance without realizing it until at the airport ready to go.
So, I made gumbo (finally, kept putting it off) and the kids wanted to come over and have some. When W is filling me in on what happened with the flights I mention the gumbo if she wants to join for dinner. She explains that the kids really wanted to so they would come. I hadn't yet made rice so she offered and brought some over. The next part is whats weird to me. Not a thing that happened, but how I felt. I try to be upbeat (and I feel upbeat), but I really don't have much to say to her. I'd like to start conversations and whatnot, but it just seems that there is this big elephant in the room. How do I have normal conversations with her? She has removed herself from my life and barely talks to me. Her explaining her flight issues was the most we've talked in weeks. I feel like I don't know her anymore and I'm just not sure if I want to try and be just friendly with casual conversations with her. If she were my wife (we're still married for now, I just mean how she used to be) then there would maybe be some incentive to want to be friendly again, but I'm not even sure if I want to be friends with this person posing as her. I mean the evening was fine but felt awkward. I feel the gap between us widening...now I don't feel much of a connection to her at all and that makes me sad. Could there be a way back from this?
So, D wanted to stay the night so W took son back to her house with plans to pick up D this morning. In hanging out with D I find out that W is planning to drive them to Austin for a swim type of resort until Tuesday. She neither told me about this nor invited me. D and watched shows and fell asleep. Woke up this morning and had pancakes and coffee while watching her favorite animes. W came and picked her up and S didn't even get out of the car. I think W woke him up and he got in the car so was tired, but I have to admit that it was hard that he didn't even get out of the car. I know this was not personal, but this whole thing has me feeling vulnerable. I do my best to show NOTHING but the happy side of me. So, now they are in Austin having a fun family outing. W did say she was trying to do something fun for them since they had to miss the NY trip, and I get that.
But, never the less, I'm still a little down over here wondering how my life came to this. I know I'm a good man and I know that I'm a catch. She has downgraded herself with all the decisions she's made in the last 2 years so its hard to feel rejected by someone who has made themselves less than you. I don't say that to put myself on a pedastool or anything, but I am proud of the man that I am and I'm proud of the decisions I've made throughout all this. I have women flirt with me all the time. It doesn't mean anything to me other than to help me know that this really has nothing to do with me, but its still hard not to take everything so personal. I mean, its the most personal thing a person can do to you...even if it isn't because of anything I've done.
sjohn, just a quick note as I checked on your thread and am sure you are hurting and like me desperately looking for replies! : )
What a story! Wow! They really do get confused. I would be terrified to let my kids go on a plane with H actually. Sounds like your W is really a wreck and that your kids were so miserable, my heart was breaking for them going through all that on top of everything else. I know it will make them strong and patient but gosh does it hurt.
Your last paragraph, if you read it on any of our threads, would elicit a response from a really nice guy named sjohn reminding us that it has NOTHING TO DO WITH US, and that the more you think about what a great guy you are and how it makes no sense, the farther you will get from accepting that it isn't you and there's nothing you can do. I have the exact same spirals as you do but when I see it on your thread, I'm thinking, poor you, because you are still allowing your mind to go there.
Just today I had to explain to a super on my block that my H was a "little crazy" right now because I asked the super if he knew a guy to help me fix something and he kept saying, "I don't understand, where is your husband, what is he doing, why doesn't he help you?" and then had to sit for a long diatribe in response to my vague reply that my H is "doing his own thing for some years now but still lives with us," The super was going on and on about how he doesn't get it, about what a nice woman I am, and beautiful (I am not beautiful but I look very young) and have wonderful kids and what is he doing, is he crazy?" And in those moments I just have to keep thinking of God and how I could be the most perfect woman in the world and God still wants to refine me, and if he is allowing this, he is using it to make me into the woman I am supposed to be.
I had CANCER and it didn't wake my H up. He still hates me, still blames me. Now it's all about money, I forget what it was before, mostly accusations of emasculation. Like you said, there were grains of truth. But the point is, we didn't break it, we can't fix it, it's not about us but they will make it about us. We can fix ourselves and keep walking in the light. I realized from the few times my H was himself again that I don't have to worry about wanting to be friends with who he is now. If/when he wakes up, he will be someone I will want to be friends with again. The unconditional love I show now is to wait, not to love who he is now; even if I have to be kind to him, it is the same as being kind to an enemy.
ack, late for church!
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Thank you Gerda. That helps! You are right that if I stay in that line of thinking that its hard to pull away and move forward. Today was just a trigger day for me so I think I'll continue to get better...I have been on all the days I'm not having to deal with some kind of fallout, which seems to lessen over time.
and...lol, I'm more worried about her driving the kids to Austin than getting on a plane. At least on a plane the pilot is flying. Austin is a 3 hour drive away...and I think where they are going is slightly further than Austin. Her driving has always made me nervous on the best of days and the kids make fun of her driving all the time. They experience it more than I ever have because when we are together I have always been the one to drive. She THINKS she is a good driver, but not many people agree with her.
I think that one of the hardest things about all this is having to surrender our kids to this crazy person. I am not afraid he will hurt them but I am afraid of the lack of care and the selfishness. And yet we know, that's their parent, for good or bad, we have to allow them to have a full relationship with that parent even when it means we will be alone, missing them, not sure they are getting good care.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Thats true Gerda...and its where I'm at right now. W is off with the kids having a good time without me. It has been a real struggle not to feel the victim. When she takes Ks off to have a good family time without me, its hard not to personalize it as recreating the family unit without me. I guess its what I am doing in her absence, but that was not my choice. I do it because its my only option. She chose this...
Having said that, I am actually feeling better today. I got pretty low over the last few days, but last night I was finally able to pull myself out of it. In all this time, I have not seen a IC. Last year W and I had several sessions with a MC, but I never got a IC for myself. I have now reached out for one as I am finally admitting that I don't want to do this on my own and need some help working through some of it. I think it will be a healthy step for me. Not sure why I haven't before now...I think it was fear. I'm tired of being afraid and ready to get myself back. I need the light in my lighthouse to be strong enough to withstand all storms and I'm going to work on getting that started now while I'm at a moment of strength. That way I'll be more prepared for the next down day.
Been thinking a lot about letting go and why I am having such a hard time doing it. With W moved out I feel much better on the day to day, but just the idea of interaction with W triggers me. DNJ talked on his thread about anger and his lack of it and it really spoke to me as I haven't gotten angry either. I wonder if being angry might make it easier on me to let go. To not be triggered by interactions with her as much...or lack of interactions for that matter.
The kids were to come home and be with me yesterday. Throughout the day I could not help but think about how I would handle myself during the exchange of children. I have found that I look at every interaction with her as an opportunity to be my best self around her. Mostly that just means being up beat and not showing pain or anything when talking to her. Sometimes this is easy and other times its work. After work I went home and when I got there, the kids were already there and W had left already. She had dropped them off minutes before and had not even gotten out of the car. She did not call or text to say that she was on her way, nor did she call or text to let me know that she dropped them off. The kids are fine and don't really need me to be there, but just the lack of common courtesy with communication is difficult to deal with. Monstering is hard of course to deal with, but its an obvious thing that is easy to realize that is not healthy. The simple lack of "hey I just dropped the kids off" is more subtle and still triggers me. I'm not even sure why. I think its because that kind of communication is something that normal people have. I would have that kind of communication with anyone, not just W. I guess it just shows me that despite what W had said before moving (that she would like to still be friends), that she doesn't even want to really be friends either. I of course don't just want to be just friends anyways, but that at least would be a start to something. We aren't even there yet. I know not to believe what she says or does, but I still find myself getting caught up in it, even though she isn't around anymore. We went from daily communications for 20 years to us not talking for days. At this point I have not spoken to her since Sunday morning, and that was just when she was picking up D and only for a few minutes. I'm not even sure why I still want to talk to her. I guess I'm still a little bit addicted to my relationship with her. I guess I am detoxing right now.
Been thinking that I might try something. I've read people talk here about putting your feelings and relationship in a "box" and tucking it away for later. Something that can be accessed again when the time is right. A metaphor for detaching if you will. To help myself, I think I will try this in a more literal sense. I'm going to make a list of all the things that I love about W. I'll write a quick timeline of our relationship with milestones at all the places in our relationship that help define my love for W. I'll gather pictures of the 2 of us over the years where we are together and happy...kissing and holding hands. I'll gather pictures of the family together when we were at our happiest. I'll gather a few home videos that illustrate the same and put them on a USB drive. I might even hand write a loving letter to W. Then I will gather all of these things and put them in an actual box. I think I'll go buy a nice one, like a treasure chest. I will take this box and tuck it away somewhere, like a time capsule, to be opened at a future date. I get worried that while going through this situation, that after some time I will lose all desire to want to be with W and will eventually forget what the love between us feels like. I think it keeps me from fully dropping the rope/GAL, moving on, etc. Maybe if I actually create this box, that I can let go comfortably knowing that I have the box tucked away to remind me if I ever forget. Have you guys ever watched the TV show House? There is an episode where there is a man that lost his hand. The man had the problem that he had the sensation that his missing hand had a clenched fist and he could not release it. House (the doctor) built a box with a mirror in it and had the man put both hands in. The mirror created the illusion that both hands were there. He had the man make a first, and then let it go while he watched. Seeing that gave the ma the release of that sensation, even though it was all in his head anyways. I am hoping that building the box and filling ti with these things will help me in a similar way.
Anyways, hope you are all doing well. I'm trying to do the same.
sjohn, please remember how you feel when you do fun stuff with the kids. It's awesome and wonderful but you feel a huge hole there. She feels like that times a thousand because the hole is going all the way through down to the bottom of her soul. She thinks you are the cause of the hole and can't figure out why it's still there even when she is doing fun stuff with the kids. She will keep covering up the hole, but I assure you that she is not having a perfectly awesome family time with them without you. It's like your man without the hand. And as a woman, let me double assure you that it is awful to be without a man when you are off with family. There is a feeling we women get when a man is doing simple things -- driving or pumping the gas or when you can put your hand on his arm in the front seat or even when he helps get the kids to stop being bratty in the back seat -- there is no way to replace that feeling of protection and comfort that only a man's presence can provide. There is also the feeling we get taking out the snacks we made and our man enjoying exactly the thing we knew he would like. And even if she tries to stick another man in there, it will feel weird, like a fake hand. You are the only one who can fit in that spot, even if she refuses to admit that now, later, forever.
Also I wanted to say that your two literary references -- to the film, about beauty, and to this one, about the hand, were very touching and allowed us to see what a deep thinker you are, and how much you feel things creatively. That is a rare trait and I want to tell you it is a wonderful thing about you!
And then you really took it over the top with your box idea. It is an amazing idea, a beautiful idea, a creative idea. Do it for sure! I would also put in the box a list of your expectations of her and your marriage so that you can let those go too. I did that once in the beginning and i found it recently. Cried my head off but was happy to see how many of them I really had let go now, many years later.
I keep a little envelope of my H's old letters. We used to just give each other letters at gift times because I prefer that and we never had much money. I read them a lot in the first years, then it became too painful, now i look at them and it seems impossible. But last year for our anniversary, I color copied a particularly amazing one that had brought me a lot of comfort over the years (because it talked about waiting for the last word on our love, the truest and most beautiful word) and gave it to him as a card. I didn't want to give him the original for obvious reasons. He never said a word or acknowledged our anniversary but I was happy I did it.
Maybe one day you will even be able to take the box out with W. I know we have to let go of that expectation but I will still pray that for you while you let those things go into the box. I know that's what happened for Charlyne, from Rejoice, and how it blew her husband's mind to read all her journals from while he was gone and to see that she was praying for him and loving him no matter what he did. I also always have an assignment with my students, they have to write a letter to themselves, a year from today. And I always mail them a year later -- it's very powerful to write it and then to receive it a year later. Anyway, the point is for you to do it for you, it is an act of love and hope and also a way to heal. Let us know how it goes.
Last edited by Gerda; 08/02/1807:41 PM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Gerda, thank you so much for the insight from a woman's perspective. My head starts to spin sometimes and it seems in the moment that I am not even an afterthought in her mind. I find that so hard to consider since we have been together for 20 years...and I can't STOP thinking about her. How could she drop me so easily? I really appreciate hearing about the hole she must feel too and the things that she must miss at some point as well. The thought doesn't change my situation, but it does help my mind settle down a little...and I need all the help I can get in that regard. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
And to that point, I think you might be right...I am a deep thinker. I analyze everything and consider things from as many aspects as possible and don't let up until I think I have things figured out. Because of that, MLC drives me crazy. There isn't a rationale I can think through to make sense of everything outside of the script they use and how it is the same for all, even if it plays out differently for each. I am glad to hear you say it is a rare and good quality because sometimes it feels like a curse. When I am happy and upbeat it helps be to reach out to people in a meaningful way and establish connections with people in a unique way. Wen I am feeling down it causes my negative thoughts to spiral downwards and I sometimes have a hard time letting go of it. I guess thats why when I am feeling up that I try to make conscious efforts to think of ways to help myself when I'm feeling down.
I'm really glad you liked the box idea. I have started making a list already and I think I have just the box to use. I had not thought about someday opening the box with W. If her and I reconcile someday, that might be a very special thing to do together. Hard to imagine now, but if we get to that point I think I would really enjoy that. The letter/card you sent to H sounds like a very touching sentiment. Its hard to do something special like that and for it to go unnoticed. I'm still glad you did it though. My mom went through a mini midlife crisis (hers was only about a year). My dad knew nothing about MLC and his only actions were of the pursuing type. She told me that he would send her poems and bible versus...and that annoyed her to no end at the time...but she kept them. After some time, as she started to come out of it, those things became special to her. So maybe, just maybe (not to build hope or expectations), some day your H will appreciate all the nice things you did for him during this time. Even if that never happens, it shows how caring and thoughtful YOU are in an unconditional way. You are also unique. I think thats why we find comfort with each other here...it takes a certain kind of person to want to stand by their marriage despite the circumstances we are faced with. I know that my W loved me all these years, but I don't think she would have stuck by me like I am for her. I may have more in common with you guys than I actually do with my W
Why can she drop me so easily? Why am I an after thought? Negative thoughts, feelings, getting into a downward spiral.
I feel and have felt exactly the same. I tell myself the feelings will pass. Invariably they do; sometimes it takes a while, sometimes I need to distract myself with something. Other times just going for a walk or phoning a friend.
I share your analysis of everything too; I don't think you are ever going to find reason or logic in their behaviour. Its illogical, irrational and doesn't make any sense. Trying to figure it out will send you into the depths of despair. I'm still there in some ways. I try not to blame myself, which is not easy.
They are in a lost and confused world, void of all emotion. Its not you.
Thanks FM. It seems that we all have a lot in common, which makes sense since it takes a certain type of person to want to stand for their marriage to the degree that they end up on a forum like this. Its good to be among friends!!
I need some help from you guys in setting a boundary. The kids have been with me most of the time since W moved out. The arrangement we came up with was 50/50, week on week off. They still have mostly been with me. The problem I am having (and please let me know if I'm making too big of a deal with this) is that most of the kid scheduling with playdates and such are typically done through moms. Moms like to contact other moms. So my wife gets contacted about scheduling the kids stuff. The problem I have is that she will get contacted about something taking place on one of my days. She may or may not have a back and forth with that mom, but she usually tells the kids about it, and then lets me know after the fact. So, she does tell me about it, but at the point she tells me I'm the last to know. I of course can say no, but at that point I am the bad guy saying no to the plans. This has not happened a bunch of times, but it has happened several times. Typically it isn't even something I would say no to, but these are my days and I want to be in control of the scheduling. I have mentioned it once in the past that I want her to tell me beforehand and I want to be asked, not told. She (at that time) said of course. Today a minor infraction of this request occurred and I want to make sure I handle my response correctly. I see this as a small infraction that I can use to firmly establish my boundary. Up to now I have, in my mind, taken the high road. I have not gotten angry and said things I regret...and I want to do that here too. I want to firmly establish my boundary while not engaging in a petty back and forth while still being respectful. So, that being said, here's how it went down.
W forwarded me an email from a parent with aback and forth discussing a sleepover. The back and forth was not with my wife but 2 other parents, W was just copied. W says "X's mom would like to have the girls over for a sleepover. D will be with you, and she said she wants to go." This tells me that W already talked to D about it. Not too big of a deal, but this is not the first time she has discussed plans with D regarding days she is with me. This particular weekend is actually a busy one for us and the sleepover plans actually slightly conflict with plans we already have, but only in a minor way. The friend in question is actually already spending the night at our house the following day, along with one of the other girls invited. W does not know this of course, but that's one of the reasons she shouldn't be discussing plans with D before talking to me. I don't want to be the bad guy that says no to plans that have been made already. Anyways, I reply with "I guess if D wants to go. We kind of had plans to go to fencing Saturday morning and then I was going to take her to the back to school thing after. Please start running these things by me before mentioning them to the kids when its on my day." W then replies with "What’s wrong with mentioning the invite to the kids? I’m still giving you say over whether she can go or not and I forwarded you the email as soon as I got it. D probably already knew about it, she talks to that friend all the time."
So, that reply frustrated me. She is still GIVING ME say? On what D does on my day? So, I don't want to get in to a back and forth over WHY. I would like to set a firm boundary without being disrespectful and without actually getting in to explaining my position...unless you think that is warranted. Today is already the day that she is coming to get the kids for her week so I am already a little emotionally charged. I realize this is not a HUGE deal, but it is a boundary that I would like to set and I don't want to overreact because I'm already not wanting the kids to leave for a week.
So, how can I reply and get my point across while still taking the high road? I have ideas of how I should reply, but I was hoping for some opinions from you guys. If I need a 2x4, please give it. Thank you, friends.
Simple - "Please don't make plans for the children during my scheduled time. I know you mean well, but often these events conflict with other plans I've already committed us to. I appreciate you wanting to keep things as calm as possible for the kids, blah di blah blah validation"
hope that helps
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
Discuss your expectations with your children. (Btw - These are expectations you should have).
At some point D12 or S14 will be involved in the planning and will realize “I need to discuss this with my Dad” or mom if it is her week. In this paticular situation it sounds like W was not involved only copied and then forwarded the email on to you. What if the other mother had sent it directly to you? It is almost the same. What you are looking for is the kids to ask you permission for them to go.
So, discuss you expectations with your children. Tell them what you would like and how you guys can accomplish it. Children really do try to live up to their parent’s view of what is expected of them. They really do! It is just that they don’t know what is expected of them. So let them know. Let them be part of the creating of the process for your home.
Don’t worry about your children being too young. They are living at different houses with different rules each week. They know what is going on. They can handle this.
An example for this would be D12 and her friends are talking about the sleep over. D12 would have asked friend to have her mom give you a call. Better yet D12 would have just ask you directly. I don’t know if your kids have phone yet, if they do texting is what they will probably use. So in your discussion of how to make this work don’t ask for a phone call you won’t get one, ask for a text - and tell them you will answer it quickly.
I do see that W is causing you frustration. Well actually you are causing your frustration by expecting W to follow the arrangement for making plans, that she previously agreed too. Remember she is irrational.
Boundaries are something you put in place due to disrespectful and other damaging behaviour. You cannot control your spouse but you can take yourself out of the line of fire. Boundaries also need to be enforced, so do not do it lightly. (When you got four teenagers you figure this out pretty quick)
It needs to spelled out clearly. Here is a boundary template.
- - - -
Setting: When you _____, I feel ______, I want __________ . Enforcing: if you ______ I will __________ .
e.g. When you cook your food and leave the dirty dishes in the sink, I feel like I'm living with a pig. I want you to clean up after yourself from now on and show some respect for my home. If you continue to behave like an animal I will move the dishes into your room so you will be more comfortable.
A boundary is USELESS unless you are prepared to ENFORCE it. You will be challenged and tested on every one of your boundaries. So make darned sure you can enforce them because if you don't you are wasting your breath and increasing the contempt she feels for you.
- - - -
Do you have any ideas for enforcement?
To me this looks like an opportunity to just figure out a different way to achieve your goal - to control your day.
If this is something worthy of a boundary to you, that is absolutely fine. It is your decision and I will support you.
Originally Posted by sjohns6
Anyways, I reply with "I guess if D wants to go. We kind of had plans to go to fencing Saturday morning and then I was going to take her to the back to school thing after. Please start running these things by me before mentioning them to the kids when its on my day." W then replies with "What’s wrong with mentioning the invite to the kids? I’m still giving you say over whether she can go or not and I forwarded you the email as soon as I got it. D probably already knew about it, she talks to that friend all the time."
Good job not getting into a argument of why. That just would not have gone anywhere useful.
I understand you are try to be polite, respectful, and take the high road - that is all good. Just be more direct.
“I guess if D wants to go.” Do not guess. Say what you mean. “If D wants to go, it’s ok with me.”
If you do not know what you want to say wait a bit. A lack of planning on W’s part does not make it an emergency on your part. Btw, I totally get that sometimes there are time constraints with kids things, and we cannot gather thoughts fully on those occasions.
The next sentence - if you are ok with D going you need not include that sentence, it is just provoking a reaction.
If you are not giving permission that would be your lead sentence (again direct). Maybe like “D and I have plans to go fencing Saturday morning and then to the school thing after. D will be unable to attend the sleepover.”
After saying all that the email stated.
Originally Posted by sjohns6
”X's mom would like to have the girls over for a sleepover. D will be with you, and she said she wants to go."
W is coming over to get the kids so sleepover is at least a week away. No big rush in answering W.
So my answer / advice,
Thank you for the information W, that sounds like a great idea. I will discuss it with D to see if we can fit it in to our plans. I will contact X’s mom to let her know.
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
I guess this is something I’ve got lucky with. Ex always asks me ahead in these situations which works for me because most of the time it’s fine. If you get a chance try to meet some of the other moms or parents at school/kid functions. Most of the time I end up communicating w/them if it’s my week. If you don’t have a problem w/some play dates on your time then maybe show her by example when you have something on her time. My ex will often parrot back an action, the way I ask her for something, etc.
I think you are being dragged into a gross back-and-forth that requires you to think too much about your W, what she is doing and thinking.
I like DnJ's final advice line at the end of his post, but I personally would go even simpler -- e.g., "Thanks for letting me know." And then talk to your kids about what works best for the weekend. I would worry more about them being able to feel normal and not have to worry about you and your W arguing over their sleepovers and boundaries over who gets to decide what when. They don't care who is right or what is fair or who seems like the bad guy. They will see through any of her madness, but it might not be on your timing. I posted about this idea in my thread just now -- my S has been raging at me for four years or more. Now that my H has tried to win him over by telling him he is leaving and saying stuff about me, the actual result was that my S woke up out of his rage and realized I am the lighthouse here and have always put him first. It didn't happen because I tried to do anything. It happened because I was patient and kept leaning on God, choosing my actions by what was part of the light, even when it meant being misunderstood. They will understand when the time is right.
Last edited by Gerda; 08/09/1804:18 AM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
I have faced this issue and w never did what I asked so I just started contacting the moms myself
Yes that was a little awkward at first but now I see all the social invitations first hand
All drama eliminated
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
You are right. Once a kid is informed it does change the situation. I can see why you are frustrated. Ask yourself why that is? Are you peeved she didn'ttespect your request or is there a deeper issue.It is important to know that.
In this case, if it suits you,i would contact directly the other mums and give your go aheadsnd offer to collect all three the next day for the second sleepover. Maybe you could give your email and ask to be contacted too for future eventsaas you organise her planning when with you. Don't expect others to remember/know your schedule.
As for W, tell her that informing D before you creates expectations in D that may not be realisable due to other plans. Ask her to respect your request for everyone's sake.
Never EVER tell w you kind of had plans." Kind of" comes across as you are willing to change plans to accommodate her. Small 2x4 but small things can make big differences
Best wishes
R 25 years M 14 years S11 & S13 Working on it alone since Oct 2014 M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years) Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr. Next R chat Aug'17 Still together
Thank you guys for the support and all the good advice. I should provide a little more background.
First, I actually have been communicating with the moms already. I've had to in order to plan playdates and whatnot. It was a little awkward at first, but not too bad as I have always been involved with stuff so I already know these moms...they just normally have dealt with W. Even the mom that was emailing W, i have been chatting with her all week trying to set up a sleepover for D's bday. So, got you on that one. In this case, even though the mom had been planning a separate event with me for the following day, it was W who she copied when planning the sleepover at her house.
As far as the kids and their expectations, they actually do really well with that. They see how their M does not include me on all the plans and how it backfires a little every once in a while because of it. Nothing major, just them seeing that I am out of the loop on something that I should be included on. The other day W said something to D about plans and Ds response was "you better call daddy and tell him about that". I have never told her to do anything like that, but she came to me and told me that evening that she said that to W. W did call me during the day and tell me about the event in question, but I didn't know at the time it was because D told her to. So, the kids are in the know and on their own accord are trying to keep W respectful of me. Love those little guys.
I do realize that I am being too polite and not direct enough. 2x4 accepted. That actually isn't hard to hear so that's barely even a 2x4...more like a wrist slap I'll keep working on that.
Kids do have phones so I'm sure that D probably already knew about the sleepover. It isn't really even about whether or not she already knew, its about W not interfering with the planning of things on my days. Again, point taken about being direct with the boundaries. Going forward I'll work on being more clear with my boundaries and consequences...and be ready to enforce them if broken.
I do realize that this was not too big of a deal. W got an email and forwarded it to me when she got it without approving any plans with the other moms. It just irked me that she talked to D about it before mentioning it to me. It has the possibility to set up expectations that I might have to break if it conflicts with existing scheduling.
So I did not respond immediately because I recognized that I may have been feeling overly emotional about something that just wasn't that important. Not that boundaries aren't important, but there are a lot of battles to choose in this journey and some of them just aren't important enough to care about. I wanted to wait and see how important this one was to me before responding. Turns out, it wasn't really that important to me once I calmed down.
What I decided was that no reply to W was necessary. I told her in my initial response what I wanted, which was for to run potential plans by me before sharing with D. She will either do that or she won't, I don't feel the need to explain myself. If she does something else in the future along these lines and I don't like it, then I can practice being more direct like you guys counselled me here. At this point I realize it just isn't a big enough deal to waste any more head space on.
When I had trouble with my S13 last year, he had all these new friends and was running the streets and I could never find him -- it was so shocking because it was such a huge change from elementary school when all the moms knew each other and kept in contact and arranged parties, etc. -- but anyway I slowly but surely managed to get the number of each and every mom of his new friends and just started trying to make friends with them, have coffee, etc. And slowly I was able to get a handle on where he was most of the time through the other moms, and to kind of reach out for help at times.
Sounds like you are totally on top of it, but I was going to also suggest you could have an open house one day, like a pot luck brunch, and just invite all the parents of your kids' friends to hang out.
Also glad you were able to get perspective on the rest of it.
Today I once again heard my D9 telling my H that "if only Mama would let you take back (our business) with (his friend) then you could have money again." He had told her some weeks ago, as part of his recent campaign to justify his actions by feeding the kids with various rewrites of history, that I wouldn't let him "have it back." Meanwhile this is the biz I had to sell when he abandoned me to run it alone, he even got paid for his shares of the biz thought the biz was in huge debt; and then the buyers never paid me, so I have been in court for almost two years, as my own lawyer. My H decided one day this year that he wanted the biz back and could not understand any of the legal or financial reasons why this was not possible.
Well, the point is, I violated my own advice to you and told my D that I heard what she said to papa and that I had told her that that wasn't what happened and she was still talking about it, which causes problems. HOW HORRIBLE IS THAT?!!!!
Then I went into my room and beat my head against the wall, at least figuratively, for not trusting that God would put all lies to rest one day and just to beat myself up for being so wicked as to say that to my D. I feel so horrible about it. And it reminded me of your struggle to try to justify yourself and not appear as the bad one. It's a serious temptation, one I thought I was mastering but today realized I still struggling with.
You are doing great, sjohn!
Last edited by Gerda; 08/10/1802:58 AM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Thanks Gerda. An open house sounds like a neat idea. My only issue is that the split between W and I is not common knowledge with all the parents. A couple of them know due to circumstances, and as time goes it will become clear to all, but if I do something like that now it would almost be an announcement that W and I are no longer together. I'm not sure if I'm quite ready for that. Maybe thats something I can work up to.
Thats a tough situation with your D and I know just how you feel. What I keep having to tell myself is that one interaction or conversation will not break things. We are humans and make mistakes...and we learn from them. If one interaction were going to ruin things, we would have been done with our situations long ago. We have just take today as an opportunity to do better than we did yesterday. Your story reminds me of something I am struggling with today regarding my family (FOO).
My sister is a high end hair stylist. The kind where women pay her a lot of money to do their hair and follow her to new salons if she changes salons. She makes quite a bit more money than I do, and I make a decent amount. Because of this, she always cuts our hair for free...either at one of our houses or at the salon. W and I have been together for 20 years, so she has been doing Ws hair for free for many years. I have sisters and W has brothers. For the last 20 years, my sisters have been like sisters to W, and her brothers have been like brothers to me. We are all really close. Since wife started MLC, she not only left me, but she distanced herself from my family and stopped talking to them. As a result, my family is very hurt by it. They not only get to see my family being torn apart and me being very hurt, but they are also losing a daughter/sister. Because of this, my sister does not want to see W. She does not cut her hair anymore, although I still take the kids to her and of course she still cuts my hair. There was not a discussion about it, it just kind of fell in to place like that. I guess W knows better than to try and sister would't if she did. My sister still loves her, but kind of hates her right now at the same time. She does not want to be fake with her. She doesn't want to act like nothing. Reconciliation between them is possible, but probably not any communication in the interim until a real discussion happens.
So, the kids will be going back to school soon and will need haircuts. My son contacted my sister about getting his hair cut. Sister was excited to hear from him and gave him a few times and said have your dad bring you up here. Son of course does not hear/read "dad" and think that it needs to be dad. On Wednesday W was picking kids up for her week and he mentions it with both of us there. For whatever reason, W doesn't seem to think too much about it saying, "I guess I could take you up there". Again, it is now her time with them. This puts me in a tight spot. I don't want to have to tell son that it isn't a good idea for mom to take you. I don't want my sister to have to tell him, or have to interact with W if she doesn't want to. So, at that time I just sidestep the conversation and say that its kind of late and my sister is working late. Its nice she offered for today, but lets just schedule something next week with her to make it easier.
Well, sister called me this morning and said that my son had called her yesterday and asked about getting hair cut today (today was one of the times she initially offered). Sister, not knowing the kids schedule said ok. She was asking me about where the kids were and if that meant that W would be bringing them. I tell her that they are with W so if they make plans for tonight then it would be W bringing them. My sister feel distraught over this. My sister has her house on the market and has people coming over throughout the day to look at it. I tell her to just tell S that it turns out that people are coming over to look at the house tonight and that it turns out that today is not a great day, and maybe we can schedule something in the next couple days. This excuse works well, except for one thing. I have plans to hang out with my sister tonight and her house viewings will be over by then. We will be lying to my son and doing the very thing he was wanting to come over for. I feel terrible about it. W is not the one discussing, son is so there isn't even much I can say to W about it. She is just willing to bring him. I hate it and am not sure I'm making the right decision. I have integrity and I feel like I am lying to my kids, even though I'm not even the one talking to them about it. And, I'm suggesting for my sister to lie to him. Its only a small fabrication of the truth to save feelings, but I'm a very honest person. I hate that I'm in a position like this. I know it will be fine, but I have to look at myself in the mirror and I like to live with integrity.
But I think you should not have fear about your W or worry about your sister. They are grown women and have to deal with it. The more forgiveness, the better for everyone, especially your kids. I think you should stop trying to control every thing that happens or keep the worlds so separate. Just let everyone deal with both consequences and encounters and don't take on so much responsibility. Your sister is being a little selfish, she can handle the encounter and it will be good for everyone to get over that. I think you need to surrender the times W is with the kids to W and stop trying to keep the worlds so separate. The kids don't want that and you are never going to be able to control things that tightly anyway. Let the kids see all the grown-ups loving unconditionally, hate the sin and not the sinner.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
hmm...Thank you Gerda, you are absolutely right. It never really occurred to me that I didn't need to keep the peace and save everyone from each other. I wonder why, it seems so obvious.
So, yeah...Ws days are her days. If my sister sees her, I'm sure she can handle it. And even if she can't and things get ugly between them, they are adults and that isn't my relationship to mange. I think I just try to take ownership of it because I am the one that brought W in to their lives. Even though that is the case, I am not the one managing the relationship, they are. I needed that perspective today. Sometimes its hard to see the forest for the trees.
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Oh, sjohn, I feel the pain in those four simple words!
It's funny how much I used to miss my H. I don't know if I am fully detached or if I just can't remember the real H, but I never miss him anymore. I miss being happy and feeling loved though. That feeling is a deep ache.
I think it is a sign of your depth and ability to love against all odds that you miss her. But I am sorry it hurts.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
I don't think so, Gordie. I guess I did have somewhat of a normal phone conversation with W. It was a rather uneventful call, but she was pleasant. It was mainly just about kid stuff, but just the sound of her voice reminded me of before. So, maybe just a feeling, but not just out of the blue.
Like you Gerda, I have slipped more in to the missing of the closeness and comfortability of our relationship and family unit rather than missing her directly. After almost 2 years of the way she is now, I start to forget what it felt like to be happy and loved by my W. My W has never really monstered at me verbally. She never gave me a list of reasons why I was at fault for things and never really condemned things I had done. For me it was just cold shoulder, distant, loss of intimacy, EA, and then moving out. No verbal blaming. So, I guess, having a conversation where she isn't being distant and cold turned in to somewhat of a trigger for me. Not a PTSD trigger for panic and anxiety, but a trigger for remembering the W that I love and miss. Not much to be done about it but recognize it and move past it.
I agree FM, I've had plenty of times where I missed her while in the same room with her. Its like a death of someone close to you, but worse. Death is a natural occurrence and is the end result for all of us. Losing someone is hard, but there is closure to it. This is similar but fresh every day without closure. Well, thats how it felt in the beginning, anyways. But, it gets better. I think the pain will eventually go away, but if we never reconcile I assume that there will be some sort of regret or longing that will never completely go away.
I'm not sure what exactly is good to share with the kids. I try not to dump too much on them, but I also want to be open with them about things. Last night after talking to W on the phone, D and I were in the kitchen while I prepared dinner. I told D that I missed her mom. I told her that I try not to let my interactions with her mom affect me, but sometimes it was hard because I have loved her my whole life and sometimes I miss her...but that I am working on being better about that. She replied with, I know dad, don't worry, it's normal. I love my daughter...
But d b coach encouraged me to be a little more open with the older kids
To acknowledge the awkwardness of the present
My hope for the future
And reassurance that I am not going anywhere
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Those are good things to share with the kids, Gordie. I know that my behavior is affected by my interactions with W despite my attempts to hide it. So, I feel the need to explain SOMETHING so that they don't form their own opinions regarding my mood.
So, W did me a favor today. She forgot to tell me something regarding a party for S to go to and asked if she could take him. I agreed and then she was an hour late picking him up, and son did not look happy about it. He looked pretty bummed. What was the favor you ask?? With her actions she reminded me how foggy in the head she still is. As a result, I'm not missing her today. Thank you, W...missing you was hard. Indifference is easier.
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
I've been having my ups and downs, but overall I'm good. I am still struggling with the decision to continue standing or not. Then I struggle with the fact that I even ask the question...as if it matters. I know that I have to continue living my life and release all expectations that I have for my W. That is a difficult thing to do because with her living somewhere else now, I find that my thoughts of her are not on the past couple of years, but of all the years before that. That causes me to miss her. It causes me to want to call her and tell her how I feel...that I miss her. I know I can't do that, and I know that my desire to do that is keeping me from moving forward faster than I am. I also know that I can't force my way through that set of feelings. I've tried. I tried to force myself to let go, and maybe for a few days it seemed to work. Then I would cycle back to loving and missing her. I finally realized that only time will allow me to fully let go/move on and that I have to experience this grief and move through it...not around it.
In the beginning I was living moment to moment. I was getting triggered by all her actions and cycling up and down with her moods. It was unbearable. I was able to detach to a very small degree and then not cycle with her as much, but I was living hour to hour, and then day to day. Now that she has moved out I find myself doing really well for 4 to 5 days at a time. To the point that after several days feeling good that I am done with W. I realized that this has more to do with not seeing her or talking to her. Then, I see her or talk to her and I then miss her again. I do not act on it, but it takes me between a few minutes to a day to get back to not missing her and feeling sad. So, I am going through days at a time where I am feeling much better. Even on the days I am missing W, it isn't an overly oppressive feeling, just a sadness that pops up from missing someone you dearly care about. Today I am missing her...
I have had my kids for the last week and it has been great! We have done lots of stuff over the last few days. I am keeping us active and GAL for myself and the kids (family life), so I am faking it till I make it, and I am making it more often now than faking it.
Of course, with all my attempts and efforts at moving on and getting a life, I still miss my wife.
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Sjohn6, I agree with Gordie and I will add this --
Your love is beautiful beautiful beautiful and full of truth -- you love what was/is most true! You love her through her darkness! How I wish someone would feel that way about me.
It's a hard cross to carry (and believe me, I totally understand as I carry the same one!) but it makes you shine with light. You are shining into my darkness right now.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Thank you Gordie and Gerda. You guys are amazing and I appreciate all of your help and kind words.
Gordie, you are right...I do need to take it easier on myself. I've been doing better with that the last couple of weeks. I've started to let go a little and get back to myself some. Not the me that I was with W, but ME. I had begun to forget there was a difference. I have a decent support network, but if I'm to be honest, I've been trying to lean on others a little less lately. My friends and family, and Ws family for that matter, are all wonderful in their support of me, but few of them truly understand the depth of what I am going through. Most people just get divorced when stuff like this happens. I think I've attained sainthood amongst my family and friends due to how I've handled myself, but thats just because they don't understand the nature of my love for my W and how MLC works. It causes me to want to share less with them as I learn to stand on my own 2 feet again. I really have been getting better and more detached, but I still have my down days here and there.
Gerda, I just love your heart. Your message made me tear up a little. Thank you so much for your kindness and I am glad we are able to shine light to each other at our times of need. I've had to take a step back from the forums for a bit lately. I've been doing pretty good at being detached, but sometimes when I get on the forums its such a stark reminder of all that I've gone through and all I have left to experience. Sometimes it keeps me from living day to day and appreciating that day. I'm sorry that I haven't been here to help in your time of need. It sounds like you are going through a tough time. My heart goes out to you. I really needed to post today so I came back and caught up on a few peoples posts.
Journalling...
So, I've been doing pretty well these past couple of weeks. Ws actions (the little I see of them) are not affecting me hardly at all. She is occasionally nice, although I really haven't been reading much in to that. And when I say occasionally, I don't mean that she is mean the rest of the time...just that she is still distant. Previously I would read something in to every nice gesture from her thinking it meant something. Now I am starting to see her behavior as a bit awkward. She doesn't seem to know how to act. I still see lots of bizarre behavior from her..well bizarre for her anyways. She still seems unfocused and her emotions seem misplaced...for everything. She got braces recently. I know it isn't that crazy for an adult to get braces, but the timing just makes it seem weird.
I have had the kids this past week. As time goes on, I am starting to realize the disconnect between my daughter and W. D does not seem to want to spend time with W at all. She never wants to go there when its her time to be with her. Son says W is frustrating sometimes, but that he gets along with her ok. My sons 15th bday is today making this a busy week for us. Last Friday both kids had sporting events that I had to pick them up from. Saturday son had a sand volleyball tournament all day, and daughter had fencing lessons. Since sons bday was today and he had school and then another volleyball match, I was going to try and do fun stuff with him on Sunday for his bday. On Saturday night I found out that one of my friends daughters (15 years old) committed suicide a couple of days ago. She hung herself and her sister (17 years old) found her. It was devastating news. I have not spent a lot of time with them recently, but our kids played together as babies and we would watch eachothers kids from time to time. Her funeral service was Sunday. Even though there were lots of friends and family there, he asked me to speak at the funeral. So, I had a few hours to prepare something to say on Sunday morning. I made my kids breakfast and tried to be up beat and fun (it was sons bday celebration day) and then took them to my sisters to hang out with family while I went to the funeral. W went to the funeral, although not with me. I did not realize when my friend asked me to speak that I was the only friend he asked. It was an honor. I also read a poem. W was pretty emotional. We hugged and she was sweet.
After the funeral I went back to get my kids and had to try and switch back in to happy bday mode. Got the kids and went home to enjoy an evening together. It went well, but it was hard to stay upbeat after the emotional upheaval of a day. Today is my sons bday and I can't help think about the day he was born. My W had a natural birth with a midwife and no drugs. She was in labor for 3 days. When my son finally came, I pulled him from the womb barehanded. It was one of the most amazing experiences of my life. He was happy and healthy and I couldn't believe the world was trusting me with another human life. I have always been so proud of my W for that and amazed at her strength. So, with today being his birthday and after all that transpired this weekend, I have to say I am feeling a bit emotional today. Not in a bad way, but kind of in an "all over the place" kind of way. Nothing like the death of a child and your first borns birthday to rip you away from your detachment.
Now I'm getting ready to go to my sons volleyball game. Got to get my game face on cause its bday dinner after that with the in-laws. I think I'm going to need an emotional rest soon...I am exhausted!!
I wanted to also share the speech I gave at the funeral for my friends daughter. Not sure why, maybe its just therapeutic for me. Here it goes:
What can you say when there are no words? What can you do when there is nothing that will take away the hurt?
I stand here today as a representative of a family in grief and a community in mourning.
We are all united not only in our desire to pay our respects to Olivia and celebrate her life, but rather in our need to do so.
All of you being here and the outpouring of love and compassion you have shown is a more tribute to Olivia than I can ever hope to offer.
We gather to celebrate Olivia (beans), who brought joy to so many. A young woman that took joy in the hopes, dreams, and accomplishments of others. A girl who's eyes would light up a room and who's smile was contagious. In every memory I have of her, she is wearing a smile from ear to ear. Just seeing her face would brighten your day.
As parents, our biggest fear is to bury our children; it is so unfair and seems unnatural. The loss of an innocent with so much life left to live defies any understanding. A hole has been carved into our hearts that can never be fully healed.
To her parents, I cannot comprehend the depth of your grief. We all know how much you loved her and how hard you tried to support her in everything that she did.
She was such an extraordinary young woman, and today, we gather to celebrate the life she has lead. Olivia was the very essence of compassion, of style, beauty, and spunk.
This tent is filled to overflowing and everyone here is a testament to the beautiful person that she was, and we can all honor Olivia in the days to come. The connections we have with those of us around us are precious, yet fleeting. I challenge you to grab a hold of your loved ones and tell them how much you love them. Hug them, spend time with them, cherish your relationships. Listen, learn and love, love harder than you ever have before.
We are all fragile right now, so please be especially observant of anyone that seems to be slipping in the struggle to deal with the grief. It is going to be a process that will be ongoing.
Today is our chance to say thank you for the way you brightened our lives. Our lives are indeed better having had you in it, and we are so grateful that we got to take part in your life and you in ours.
You will forever be in our hearts. You will not be forgotten
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Hello DB family. I haven't posted in a bit. I've been trying to keep up with you guys threads, but have been taking a break from my own thread. I've been kind of status quo with my situation...which actually isn't even true. Nothing different has been happening between W and I, but I do feel myself changing. As I become more detached, my desire to reconcile with W dwindles. The last couple of weeks have been a little tough on me emotionally, though, so I thought I should come back to my thread and journal a little.
I'll start my journalling with an observation I've had about myself recently. As I mentioned above, the more time I spend away from W, the more detached I feel and the less I feel like reconciling. To recap my situation, I'm 2 years from noticing her initial changes, 2 months out on 2 year anniversary of BD, and 5 months out from when she moved out. We don't really ever talk unless it is about the kids scheduling. There was a random call about 2 weeks ago where we talked for about 20 minutes on the phone because she kept the call going and seemed to want to talk, but outside of that 1 call she is mainly pretty distant. I do not initiate anything anymore. What I realized is that when I spend enough time away from her, my desire to continue standing for my marriage dwindles to almost nothing. Recently I have found that my interactions with her are not affecting much much either. Previously I would feel fine and then I would see her and it would set me back some and it would take me a day or so to right myself again. I'd be missing her and my family unit being together. I've recently discovered that when I spend time with her and her family, it still affects me. Her brothers and I have always been close and they have continued to contact me to hang out with them. I do on occasion, but I do not initiate contact with them out of respect for boundaries (not that W deserves that respect but that is the man I am), but I do reply to their initiation of contact. What I've realized is that I seem to be ok around W, and OK around her family, but hanging out with them all together affects me negatively. It feels awkward. I explain that as a little background to the decision I am trying to make for this week...but before I get to that I need to discuss my kids.
My daughter and my W have not been getting along very well. S gets frustrated by Ws behavior sometimes, but he is 15 and wrapped up in his own social circle that it doesn't affect him as much. Both kids seem to prefer to stay wit me, but D makes it obvious. In the past week she has cried twice after interactions with W. This past week was my week with the kids, but Ws mother was in town and wanted to have the kids for a day to see their grandma, which I of course allowed. Thing is, she wanted them for Halloween. S had plans with friends already which W knew and understood. D WANTED to hang out with friends, but she was waiting for friends to invite her. When I picked D up from school last Monday, she had found out during the day that her friends mom had sent an invite to W for D to go to the friends house for a party, but W had declined because she wanted D to come to her house and hang out with grandma. D already didn't want to hang out with W, and her brother got to go hang out with his friends. D cried and said that she felt like her mom had zoned out for a couple years and now all the sudden wanted to try and spend time with her again, but that she didn't even try to do things she wanted to do or to get to know her again. That she was still treating her like the little kids she was 2 years ago. I thought it was good that she was able to verbalize her feelings like that, but it broke my heart. Then on actual Halloween, I took son to his party and W picked up daughter from school. Around 8:15 D texts me and asks if I want to come pick her up. It seemed a little early so I asked if they were done and if it was OK with her mom. D said yes so I got in the car and drove over. W had her brothers, their families, her mom, her dad and his wife, and a few friends of her brothers over and their kids. My D was in her room with the door locked. So, looking around, it was everyone hanging out with their families, except W. Her son was out, H (me) not there, and daughter who was in her room with the door shut. A few of the family got up and hugged me and said they were wondering when I was coming, but I politely said that I was there to pick up D. W had offered me food which I politely declined. Then she realized I was just there to pick up D and seemed distressed. I said that I had asked D if it was ok and she said yes, and W agreed that it was fine. I think W just wanted to put on a show for her family that everything was fine (having D over, offering me food, etc), but I just don't roll like that. So, I left with D and she cried on the way home. Said everyone was awkward around her and barely even talked to her. I explained to her that I wish I could make it easier on her, but what I could do is make sure that my house was a comfortable environment for her to relax and be herself. And that she could talk to me about anything and that it was good that she was talking to me now. We then went home and had a great rest of our evening. She fell asleep next to me on the couch watching a scary show on TV.
So that was last week. This coming week my Ws brothers have invited me on a boys camping trip. It will be her 2 brothers and a couple of close friends. I did take the time off of work and planned on going. I really love her brothers and they have been my brothers for the past 20 years. I am feeling conflicted now. To start, this is Ws week with the kids, but come Friday it will be my week again. If I go, it will put the kids with their mom for a week and a half and cut in to my time. With the way that W and D have been getting along, I am worried about doing that. Then, turns out S has a major VB tournament this weekend. He just got moved to varsity and he is a freshman. They are in first place in the standings right now so they have a good shot at winning the tournament. It would be kind of like winning a state championship. He is VERY excited about it. If I go camping, I will miss that. In addition, I have been starting to wonder about my relationship with the brothers. I am not so sure if a big bonding trip with them is within my best interest right now. If W and I do not reconcile, then most likely my relationship with them will have to diminish. I mean if W starts seeing someone serious enough to bring around the family then I can't still be around for that. Not that she is seeing someone now, but we don't seem to be going anywhere with our relationship so that is a real possibility. But...her brothers love me and really want me to go, so I feel pretty conflicted about it.
Whew...sorry to have written so much, but I needed to type all that out. I love my family and never wanted things to be like this.
From what you wrote it sounds more like indifference is starting to take hold, than more detachment. To me you sound well detached from W and her behaviour. Your post seems like an accurate retelling of events, with no emotional pains - detached.
Indifference is a strange place. Your feelings for W will lessen greatly, and your thoughts will follow suit. Just like when you were full of passion and frustration after BD. Your thoughts will follow your feelings. Only then it caused pain, now it will cause nothingness.
Tap into your beliefs.
The sweet welcomed relief of indifference does hit a bump as you adjust to this new emotional state. In short since your feeling towards W have lessened, other ones will seem much larger than they really are. Stay the course, things will settle.
Tap into your beliefs. It is here that you will find what you are seeking. The answers and reasons you are searching for.
I understand when you say the less you feel towards W, the less you feel like reconciling. You need to find the other reasons, the ones not based on just feelings, the ones from your core. Be patient and do not do anything drastic. This takes time and will be well worth it.
- - - -
Your upcoming conflict. Kids vs BILs.
I like the way you stated it, you feel pretty conflicted about it. Very accurate sjohns, well done. You are not weighting the pro and cons of going or not, you are conflicted, struggling with what you want against what you should. More or less.
At any rate, to me it looks like your scales have already started to lean one way. I could be way off base here, but it looks like you are wanting a nudge. Pick your kids.
I hope your son has a great time at his VB tournament. It would be really nice to get a first place finish.
I am sorry if I overstepped. I have faced some conflicts about family (kids) vs friends, or fun, or even extended family. I chose family every time, and have never regretted it.
Take care
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
sjohn, I have wondered where you were! I was happy to see you post and to see you stop by my thread, thank you!
I just wanted to say --
CHOOSE YOUR KIDS! And tell them you are choosing them! Tell them you had this plan but you realized that you really missed them and didn't want to lose even a half day of the time you get to see them, and that even being in the house when they are upstairs watching TV is way more important to you than a camping trip with anyone anytime. They will love it! As a woman who has spent her life since being a teen working with teens, I assure you -- from what I read here, your daughter is clearly really struggling, and the thought of her locked in her room kills me, and I don't even know her beyond a few lines I have read in your posts. She is hurting.
I have made the decision to give up so much of my life just to be available for my son any time he wants or needs me, just for these couple of years when he wants that. Think of how fast the baby years went by, and all the times that you wished you had taken even more joy of that time. The teen years are the same, but in addition, her emotional needs as a teen girl with a crazy mom are beyond what you can imagine. I was that girl though maybe my mom was more crazy than your W. My dad was not an MLCer but he was pretty difficult and did many hurtful things. If I had had a dad like you, things would have been very different. Maybe I wouldn't even have ended up with a future crazy husband if I hadn't been so screwed up in the parent-attachment department.
I don't mean to be dramatic, but I am not going to be kindly polite about it like my boards-best-friend DnJ. I'm gonna be vehement and bossy. I don't think you should worry about your future relationship with your brothers-in-law on any level; I think you should keep enjoying their company when they initiate it. But I think you should invite them to be with you and your kids more often than being with them alone as "bros." Either way,I would drop anything and everything any time your kids not only need you, which might be obvious, but just when they kinda want you. So many times I have sensed that my son wanted me to be near, even when he was being a royal pain in my rear and was just playing video games and occasionally barking out orders for food. And every single time, after being terrible to me, by the time I went to sleep, he was pouring out his heart to me, holding my hand to fall asleep, asking me for a hot water bottle (he carries stress in his belly) and just leaning with all his soul into me. (Something I can only bear up under by leaning with all my soul into God!)
I am so happy you can be there for your S and D. You are a wonderful dad. So happy I know so many wonderful dads here.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
I know Gerda, well sort of, for a while now. If she is this fired up and passionate, I’d listen, she has a good head on her shoulders and a good heart. I also agree with her, in a little too kindly polite way.
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Man, I just love you guys. I really need to post more often. The support I get from you is priceless and I cherish it.
DnJ, thank you for the push. No, you definitely did not overstep. I wanted your opinion. I didn't realize that in my recounting of events that I had stacked the cards one way, but in re-reading my post, I certainly did. I guess it is probably clear what I really wanted, which was to be with my kids. You hit on a few points that gave me pause and I feel like you may have been responding to something that I didn't say but have been thinking...and thank you for that. You mentioned being patient and to not do anything drastic in this new found indifference. I am not sure if you were speaking out of your own feelings you had during this stage or picking up on what I wasn't saying, but I have been considering filing for D. I'm not really sure why. I am not in a rush for anything, and I am not trying to start dating. I think its just that as I see myself not really interested in being with the woman W has turned in to, and I don't see any signs of W getting better, and the fact that I can't really even feel the love that I used to feel for W anymore (which I find a little sad...but it is what it is), that I find myself wondering why not go ahead and call it. Wouldn't that be the logical step in moving on? I am having a hard time envisioning the path that would lead us to reconciliation...not sure W is capable of what it would take and she certainly isn't showing any signs of that ever happening. If its not going to happen, then why not move forward? These are just my thoughts, haven't acted on anything. I know that I am going through phases myself and that a decision like that is something that I'd need to be sure of...but I can't help but recognize that that is where my head is at recently.
You also mentioned I sound more indifferent than detached...although also detached. To be honest, I'm not sure of the difference. I mean, to me, the word indifference seems to describe how I feel more than detached does, but I don't really understand the difference. I really want to, though. Can you expand on that for me? I really appreciate it. I also get what you mean about in this new stage as my feeling dwindle for W that my other feelings may seem larger than they are and that makes a lot of sense. I hadn't considered that but I see the truth in it.
I am really going to work on finding the other reasons to stand that are at my core. It breaks my heart to lose the feeling for my W, but at the same time I just can't go back to how I felt before. It is too gut wrenching and I need a little peace. I hate that it looks like the way to get past this in my heart and mind is to let go of the feelings I had for W. I cherished those feelings, but they are not serving me now. I want to want to stand for my marriage, but this indifferent stage I have fought hard to get to and so far has been my only way up the ladder. I don't want my feelings for W to be the price I pay to get there, but for now it is what it is. Her lack of love and respect for me at this point aren't helping me...so I have to help me and this has been the only way so far. Like I said, I'm going to dig a little deeper to understand myself and what I want. I'll get there...
Gerda, I just love you! Thank you for that 2x4. You hit me on the head with the the truth I was already holding. I DO know what you mean about how fast they grow and how I don't want to miss any of it. I think my mind was made up already but I was just having a hard time seeing the choice I had made. I remember right before W moved out I was contemplating losing the kids for half the time right at a point where in a few years they would be moving out. I sat down and did the math and came up with about how many days I had left with them. It was difficult seeing the math worked out like that...when you put a number on it, it seems so much more personal. So, I think about the time I have left with them all the time and make every effort to cherish it. It makes me sad to think about W and what she is losing. The time she is losing with them now she can never get back. If her and I ever reconcile, she won't have lost much with me that can't be regained with a little work. She can never get these years of the kids lives back...and that is sad to me knowing that at some point she will have to deal with the knowledge of that. I will not have that to deal with and I know I won't have any regrets coming out of this, regardless of how it plays out.
I can't express how much I appreciate the support from you guys. Thank you, thank you, thank you!!
...I have been considering filing for D. I'm not really sure why.
This is part of that don’t do anything drastic advice. Until you are sure - don’t do anything. Answers will come, honest.
I want to speak to the “not sure why, but am consider filing for D”. There are a coupe of things.
First, as indifference takes hold your feelings for W will be quashed, suppressed - and nature abhors a vacuum. As I said other feelings will fill that void and seem much larger than they really are. Some pretty common advice I have given is do not make decisions based on feelings. Feeling are fleeting. Well, do not make decisions based on lack of feeling either.
Both of those are in play with this.
1) You lack feelings for W, ergo you concluded we are done - get D.
2) You have new and large feelings for nice, new, could be special, person (even if you haven’t met them yet). You conclude - this is great, might as well get D and get started on better life. Those exaggerated feelings, feel real, they are real, they just aren’t as big as you feel they are. Remember they are fleeting, let them settle.
Second, indifference and the nothingness it brings. You have been through a pretty dramatic time in the last while, you are used to having some drama in your life, in a way you are addicted to drama. The nothing, the limbo, your mind will work against it, will look for some form of drama or excitement.
These two forces work on you, ideas start to form, reasons are created, logical thoughts to rationalize are formulated, all in an attempt to convince yourself to do something dramatic and exciting.
You stated quite a few of them. Not interested in being with the women W has turned in to. I can’t feel the love I used to feel. I should just go ahead a call it. That would be the logical step. Can’t see reconciliation. W probably can’t do what is required. If this won’t happen, I should just move forward. And so on.
Yep my thought and feelings, exactly. Realise what is happening to you.
Now is when you need to go beyond and find your core, your beliefs, your convictions. You will discover your reasons and beliefs that are not based on your love or feelings towards W. These will be based on you - who you are.
Do you believe in MLC? Do you believe in marriage? Do you believe in W? Do you believe she is worth this effort?
Just some ideas to get you started. Notice - do you believe she is worth it, not - do you feel she is worth it. A big difference there.
When you have indifference and are healed enough to be able to walk away, that is when you truly start to stand. That is the real start of the test. Dig deep, find your convictions, learn your beliefs.
- - - -
Detachment vs indifference.
This is for the viewpoint towards our spouse, it is what we most struggle with. However one can be attached, detached, indifferent to any person, place, or thing.
Detachment is when your emotional state is not directly affected by your spouse’s emotional state, behaviours, or actions.
It is the opposite of attachment, where your emotions change depending on your spouse’s emotions, behaviour, or actions. Your emotional response is based on an irrational coupling to your spouse. This emotional response is uncontrolled and unavoidable.
We all remember being attached. When your spouse treated you badly, you felt bad or sad. When they behaved nicely towards you, you felt so much better. Then they left with OP kissing on the way out the door and you crash into depression and fear. You could not control your emotions, they changed based on your spouse.
As more rational ideas and thoughts gain foothold, more control over your responses is attained. When you are detached it is not, that you don’t feel anything, you can still get upset, sad, whatever - you can just rationally see the reason and you are in control. You are not riding that emotional rollercoaster. A step towards indifference.
Indifference is the absence of feelings, or very little feelings, for your spouse. Where in detachment you could be still very much in love, just not irrationally dragged along - in indifference you do not have those passionate feelings.
Some say hate is the opposite of love. Not true. Both are born in the crucible of passion and are but a razor edge apart. We have all experienced those times where the person we love (our spouse) does something so stupid, or wrong, or hurtful - we suddenly hate them. Of course we get over it and love returns. We are deeply passionate towards our spouse and love and hate are passionate emotions.
Indifference is nothing, neutral, bland, the opposite of passion. It is like the feelings one has for a stranger, maybe even less. Indifference for your spouse does seem more than indifference for others. Their actions and our own defence mechanisms put more protection, more walls, more indifference between us and our spouse than between us and some man off the street. It does make sense, our spouses hurt us greatly, and our healing would cause a greater disconnect in response to the greater hurt.
Indifference can, and sometimes does, get to the point of just not caring about them anymore. Our spouses have this mastered. Some of you have experienced this from your spouse and know just how great indifference can become.
However, for most LBS, we still care. Our feelings of love for our spouse is lessened. However our love still exists in our thoughts and core beliefs. It is here that something amazing takes place, deep within who you are, and defined by your beliefs.
That love that you know you have, you believe in, will grow. It will transcend, freed from the boundaries of passion, it becomes more - you love unconditionally.
Without the love/hate passion, you love based on reason, faith, who they were, who you are, your long lives together, a belief that they are still inside trapped somewhere - you will love based on whatever your core values are. You will love with out the constraints of passion. You will love them, who there are, and it will have no detraction due to feelings of dislike or hatred. This is how it becomes unconditional - love based on beliefs instead of feelings.
A love like that leads to forgiveness.
A love like that brings peace.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Wow, DnJ...thank you for that. I had to read that several times and it meant a lot to me. I appreciate you taking the time to help me work through all that.
Your explanation of indifference vs detachment makes sense. You have given me a lot to think on and I doubt I'll be able to soak it all in all at once.
As far as filing for D, I think you listed out my thinking perfectly. I actually had started looking at what it takes to file in my state (in all this time since BD I have never done that) and it scared me off a bit. It was like D seemed like the rational way to go, but once looking at all it entailed it brought the whole thing in to focus, back to reality...and I realized that regardless of my indifference that I am not ready for that. Or rather I am not ready to be the initiator of that. I do not want to act out of emotions, or what feels like a lack there of. I think I'll take your advice and just let things be for now, I still have a lot of work to do on my self so that doesn't really need to be a focus for me for now.
One thing I am wondering about is when you mention "Now is when you need to go beyond and find your core, your beliefs, your convictions. You will discover your reasons and beliefs that are not based on your love or feelings towards W. These will be based on you - who you are." To me this sounds like a moral conviction kind of thing. Like, standing for your marriage based on the vows I took that go above the feelings I have for W. Is that what you meant? I think you are hinting at something profound here, but I may need it in 2x4 form. Is that a possibility? Sorry, you have gone out of your way so much in the messages you are giving me and here I am asking for more. Thank you for all.
You ask a few other questions that I want to answer even though I think they are rhetorical.
-Do I believe in MLC? - Yes I do. Sometimes I wonder about it being a blanket excuse for selfish behavior, but in the end I do believe in it due to all I have read AND witnessed with my own eyes. For 19 years W and I had a beautiful and loving relationship. She did not just fall out of love and lose her moral character in 2 months because thats a normal thing that happens.
-Do I believe in marriage? - Yes. I do. But I also believe that it takes 2 people to want to be in a marriage and to stay true to the commitment they made to each other. My feelings and convictions can't cover that for the both of us us.
-Do I believe W is worth this effort? - This one is harder to answer. The W I used to know and the relationship we used to have, yes. The W she could be again and the relationship we could develop in the future, yes (or probably, assuming she is some form of the wonderful person she used to be). Now? well, if she stays the way she is and nothing progresses between us...then no. The person she is now is not worth the effort. That is a hard thing to say, and maybe even a little selfish. The idea that I only put in effort to see some kind of return on investment. But...isn't that what a relationship is? Not the putting in effort to see a return, but a give and take between two people who want to share their lives together. If she never returns to wanting a relationship, then I would say that the effort would have been wasted. If there is a better way to view that then I am all open. Generally I am an optimist but I may be a bit jaded right now. I'm working on that...
Again...thank you so much for all of the thought and time you have put in to replying to me.
DnJ always have some great advice. Most of us do for others Sometimes I have to take my own advice.
I remember one time my d10 was breaking everything, I was downstairs unpacking, all I hear is things being thrown D10 kept saying I hate her that's when I knew my kids Needed therapy they been going for over 8 months and one Thing we all where taught to not do rational things when angry
I took that advice because I know I would be in jail now. Now I myself calm down and wait next day before I do anything I can regret.
It's hard. We are so angry at MLC. It's hard not to react.
Now that's a interesting question DnJ ask about believing in MlC My belief are kike you, it's a selfish thing to do or poor excuse.
But unfortunately it's being written more and study's are now Actually saying childhood trauma can cause lots of Damage as an adult.
My belief is some of US are mentally stronger we can overcome Anything. Unfortunately I thought W being an ex Marine and the way W spoke I thought W is mentally strong. I fooled myself And have also surprised myself because I would have thought I would have by now been lock up or been mental hospital for a mental breakdown But I am stronger then ever emotionally.
Is interesting that's one thing I would say.
I have gotten more knowledge now than ever in childhood trauma how It good simply hurt us as adults now I am here trying to protect 3 kids From having a f up life when they become mens or women.
You sound like a strong guy I know you will over this. Remember
One day at a time
At BD Lesbian marriage Me39,W36 S9,D9,S8 adopted all three Together almost 10yrs Bomb Drop - April 2017 W movedout - May,2017 OW June,2017 Currently 2018 Me40, W38 S10,D10,S9
Very good answers to the questions (rhetorical or not).
We have a similar view of things and life.
As to my hinting to something profound. The part - go beyond and find your core, your beliefs, your convictions. That was right above those questions, that you answered so well.
The questions asked - What do you believe.
Not - what is happening, what do others think about this, how do your feel towards <whatever>, what do you think about <whatever>, logically what probability do you give blah blah.
Again, those questions are just a starting point for you.
Did you really answer - What you believe.
When you get to indifference, you are well on your way to healing, you have been involved in self reflection and examination. Those are the acts that push indifference forward.
So, with out all the noise from emotions, and already in the mind set of self reflection, you can delved deep inside yourself and find what you really believe in, what is non-negotiable, what you are willing to die for (figuratively), what you are willing to compromise on, what you are willing to forgive or not forgive. And many many other characteristics about yourself, all with out those fleeting feelings getting in the way and skewing your results.
You will truly understand that man in the mirror. That is profound! To understand one’s self. We all think we do. But, do you really know yourself?
Yes there are moral convictions you will discover. Your’s. No one else’s. Not your parents’, not W’s, not your friends, not even DnJ’s - Your’s based on who you are.
So, back to those questions - based on your beliefs.
Do you believe in MLC? There are people who do and those that don’t. Who is right? Is there actually a right answer? A true answer? Can both by right? Can both be true? Why? Why not? That is the digging I am talking about, the going beyond.
What about marriage? How far are you willing to go? What about vows? What about standing? Where does marriage end?
Is W worth the effort? Are you worth the effort?
Did you notice that all that up there, all those questions, all the answers you will be seeking, it is all about and based on you, nothing to do with your spouse. Do you see why indifference is necessary? It is all you. Who you are and will be.
I hope that filled in a few more of the blanks.
By the way - Your title - making it about me...
Kind of profound, I think.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Hello friends. Its been a while since I posted. Thank you Marina, DNJ, and Gordie for your advice and guidance. I took about a month to chew on that and try and further myself through this process.
As we move in to the holiday season, I feel so mixed up about things. I suppose that is to be expected. Although we were not doing great last year, W was still at home so the holidays, however awkward, were still spent together. Even though she has been moved out for 6 months and I have gotten used to it, this will be the first Christmas not together as a family.
I have gone through a period to where I feel totally detached from any feelings towards W. I don't really see that I want to reconcile at this point. Not that I hate W or anything, its just enough time has passed since I've had any meaningful interaction with her, and she has been gone long enough, that as each day passes she seems to grow smaller in my rearview mirror. Our only interactions are sometimes when we trade off the kids and the occasional text regarding scheduling of kid stuff. Its weird because she doesn't seem to be doing any crazy replay stuff anymore and although she isn't her old self, she seems to be a bit more level headed than she has been since the start of MLC. Sometimes when I see her she seems a bit nicer (not quite so cold shoulder to me), but other times still distant. I kind of don't really feel anything to either. When shes distant it seems par for the course, and when shes nice it just seems like the up to her down.
I feel like I am nearing the end of my desire to stand. I just re-read the old post that job reposted about reconnecting. Just reading about the long process of emotional/mental gymnastics required by the LBS at that stage just seems so exhausting and its hard to see that its worth it. I mean, I feel like I deserve to be with someone who wants to be with me. Someone who cares about me enough to be willing to fight for me as hard as I have been fighting for my own marriage/W. To see that I could go through 2 years of being rejected through replay antics and not even be at the LONG stage of playing delicate with her emotional state as to not run her off again just seems overwhelming. And to know that if I don't, the at that point it will be ME that is saying no to saving our marriage.
And now I have done something to muddy the waters a little further. I met a girl I kind of like. We went for coffee and ended up talking for over 2 hours. She is a year past her divorce from an 18 year relationship. It was really hard on her. A couple of weeks later we went to dinner together. It isn't serious, but I can tell that it could very easily slip in to something serious if I let it. Its hard because talking to her is so easy and its nice to have someone interested in talking to you. Of course, I also feel pretty confused about it because for all this time I've been standing for my marriage not even thinking about dating. Now, even though W told me we were done and that I should move on multiple times, I still almost feel like I'm doing something wrong. I mean not exactly, but a little bit. I hate it that nothing I do really feels right.
Generally I have been doing well and have been doing my best to GAL and regain some peace and happiness. And it has been working. Its just this last week and as we move in to the holiday season I feel conflicted about things again. Ws family still calls me wanting to do things with me and plan stuff with the kids. They are still talking and getting along with W, but I think they get better visits with the kids when they are with me and better planning and gift ideas when they call me. Its weird because I feel like I should be distancing myself from them since W has moved out and is living completely separate from me...but they have been my family for the last 20 years and thats hard to give up without a good reason.
Thanks...I just need to journal a little. Comments welcome...even if its in 2x4 form.
No 2x4’s from me John. Six months is still not a very long time. I think this is just the slow process of detaching and of course this time of year makes it tougher. It is all about family. This will be our first Christmas not together as a family as well. I am not looking forward to it. I wish I could say I was but I know that it will be an emotional time. I am trying so hard to remember last year but it is a blur with only a few pictures on my phone. If only I had known... I would have taken many more pics or...maybe none at all. Hard to say.
Sounds like you met a quality person who you could see having a relationship with. I think you are right not to go there right now. It wouldn’t be fair to her and it sounds like she has been through enough. Maybe you can maintain a friendship until you feel more ready. I think you will know when that is.
I get the part that it feels like we doing something wrong, Like cheating.
I remember just going to movies and drink like a month ago And I was like this is weird and kept looking over my shoulder As if W was going walk in and say Wth your doing.
And John if you feel like it's wrong then it means it's to Soon. Your not ready.
Speaking for me I wasn't. And when I do go out with friends I make it clear is just friends.
And honestly when is the right time. We don't know I go To divorce groups and they say their is no time line. It can Take years.
I think you miss being wanted. Having a woman want you. I don't blame you. We are all adults. We miss that desire to Feel another person wanting us.
But don't confuse wanting, needing to start a new relationship.
What I have done is go out on groups so we don't do something We will regret. Again this works for me.
Now your W sounds like mines. My W stop being angry But also just not herself is weird to explain but I know she isn't herself.
I honestly have stop looking for signs. Because it puts me in a spiral I only can handle myself and I am doing that.
And your right Holiday season doesn't help us. We all here must get through this season.
Try to remember the good of W, oh trust me is hard I know But if your standing and see memories slipping away. If you can handle it. Find the good memories and hold on to those.
Remember... One day at a time...
At BD Lesbian marriage Me39,W36 S9,D9,S8 adopted all three Together almost 10yrs Bomb Drop - April 2017 W movedout - May,2017 OW June,2017 Currently 2018 Me40, W38 S10,D10,S9
I am glad you posted, I was wondering what was going on. I did think you were doing a bit of reflecting, much like I did we do tend to go offline for a bit while sorting things out.
Your feelings, or more the lack of, is described very well, as well as your confusion regarding it. Keep posting about it, it will help sort it out.
Originally Posted by sjohns6
I have gone through a period to where I feel totally detached from any feelings towards W.
For what it is worth, and for accuracy, that is indifference. Detachment unties your emotions from her emotions and antics, you still feel towards her - love anger, hate, pity, sorrow, etc. It brings a big reduction in the emotional rollercoaster, and some clarity and comfort.
Indifference ceases your feelings, or greatly reduces them, regarding her.
Originally Posted by sjohns6
...she seems to grow smaller in my rearview mirror.
Originally Posted by sjohns6
I still almost feel like I'm doing something wrong. I mean not exactly, but a little bit. I hate it that nothing I do really feels right.
This is a strange state to be in. This is where we all were hoping to get to, back when we were suffering so much. It brings much peace, since her antics do not faze you in the least. However, there are traps to be wary of.
First, I would like to point out how feeling something makes it so much more real. We all know our MLCers are doing this in overdrive. The LBS is not immune to it either. Before our mixed up feelings and pain, we thought we would never get over it. And look where we are. Currently the lack feelings seems like it will be forever and you should just throw in the towel. Here is the first 2x4:
Do not decide things based on your feelings! They will change!
Look at where you are. When you started this path after BD, I am sure, I know, you felt different.
Find your beliefs, your core, what makes sjohns6, and follow that.
Look at what you wrote (and by the way perfect, sincere and honest). You feel like you are doing something wrong. You hate this. Nothing feels right.
Yep. That would be expected. Some of those traps I mentioned. Of course it feels wrong, this is a strange new place for you, it is going to feel wrong for a while. Give it time to settle in.
From what I see you now have very little noise or distraction from W or yourself, just what you need to find out who you truely are. sjohns6, from someone who cares enough to urge you to do what is best for you - Don’t waste this opportunity. Very few people ever get the chance to seek within themselves, or have the friends that will help them and hold them to the task. Most friends want a quick fix for you, and most people just want a quick fix. I believe you know better and want a more solid realization of life.
About a month ago I rambled on quite a bit on detachment and indifference. I asked a bunch of priming questions. I am thinking if you were to read it again, you may see it differently, maybe even have some of those profound insights you were looking for.
Now on to the remainder of the 2x4s:
Standing. I get it. You have healed enough to know you will be alright. You know enough that you could let go of W. Indifference makes it seem like standing is pointless. Feelings - be careful. Follow something better.
True standing starts when you are at this point, where you could just walk away.
Stand!
Keep moving forward, but stand. Let things settle down within your emotional self, the other feelings that seem so large. Make your decision not based on feelings.
Do not look so far out into the future. Yes reconciliation is a very long process. You do not need to decide today. Just give yourself some time.
Do not date, you are not ready. Be honest and sincere, and I mean with yourself. This is me totally projecting on to you, with my situation.
I honesty desire that widow work lady. I am also interested in the other girl. I am not over my STBXW. I went to the Christmas party alone. I had one girl that is throwing herself at me, and the other with the answer yes to a date that I haven’t even asked for yet. I have given myself some time and the feelings did subside.
You should do the same. Let your new feelings subside a bit, then make better decisions. You do deserve to be with someone who wants to be with you, absolutely! Just don’t rush it.
One last thing, for the moment. All this is advice is for you, your life, your healing, your future, your path, it has nothing to do with W and everything to do with you.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
True standing starts when you are at this point, where you could just walk away.
Stand!
Keep moving forward, but stand. Let things settle down within your emotional self, the other feelings that seem so large. Make your decision not based on feelings.
Do not look so far out into the future. Yes reconciliation is a very long process. You do not need to decide today. Just give yourself some time.
As usual, I agree with DnJ.
Even Gerda the nun has been tempted of late by someone who has been helping me amazingly with biz problems and divorce procedure stuff and who I dated briefly in my 20's. I have found myself in late-night situations that could have gone way south of standing and managed to extricate myself. I'm not sure I know of anyone on these boards as devoted to standing through unforgivable behavior as I am, and so willing to surrender herself to God's will, and this kind of crush and temptation and confusion happens to me too. It even happens to me on these boards, where -- let's admit it -- all of us get to get comfort from each other with an intensity that would in person be rather questionable for a stander.
DnJ is right, don't go by your feelings, otherwise known as the flesh. That flesh is stretchy and flammable. Wait and watch. Forgive yourself. Cry and punch things. If you don't pray, talk to the universe. Out loud. Under the trees like DnJ or wherever you can feel the universe. Remember that you have many friends here who admire you, who completely and totally understand your pain and your confusion, your hope and your despair. Whatever you are going through, we are too. Those who believe it's okay to date can see you aren't ready to date.
Whatever you decide, we love you.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Hello again. Thank you all so much for the support. I've been doing pretty good lately. Feeling a lot more like myself again. More happiness and confidence than I've felt for some time. Having said that, like I mentioned above, I think the holidays can be hard even when things are feeling better. Still, I've been doing good with getting presents for all my friends and family as well as getting the house decorated for Christmas. Its mainly when I think about Christmas day and possibly waking up to an empty house that starts to pull at me a little. I think that's the mindset I was in with the confusion I was feeling in my post above. As the days tick by I am feeling more peace about it.
DejaVu: I'm sorry to hear you are about to experience your first Christmas apart too. And yeah, 6 months isn't a long time, but BD was about 2 years ago (will be 2 years in a couple weeks). W moved out for 2 months last year but then moved back in. So 6 months is just how long since W moved out, but I've been dealing with all the MLC stuff for a couple years now. I like your idea of maybe being friends with the girl I met until I'm a little bit more ready for dating. Thank you for that!
Marina: Hi there. About 4 months ago I had lunch with a girl I used to date from church when I was in high school. The lunch wasn't really a date, but I absolutely felt like I was doing something wrong...like I was cheating. I did not do that again because it was obvious to me at that point that I was in no way ready to date. I felt like I was doing something wrong and it wasn't even a date. This time with the girl I met recently, it felt different. What felt wrong wasn't regarding cheating. What felt wrong was more to do with feeling like I might be misleading her somehow. Its hard to describe, but maybe like I felt like I had info that I wasn't disclosing. Which is kind of true. This MLC thing has a lot of layers and its not easy to describe to people, even if they are interested in hearing about it. Whether I feel over my relationship with W or not, I know that despite what she has said, she isn't ACTUALLY done with it. I know that there is no guarantee the spouse will want to return when they "wake up", but I'm pretty sure based on how I've handled myself and how our relationship was before that W will EVENTUALLY be interested in fixing things between us. At this point I'm not sure thats even something that I'm going to want anymore, but I know its a situation I will have to deal with eventually. In talking to this girl I am realizing that a few things about myself and what I want that I hadn't really considered before. W and I got together really young and we kind of grew up together, so to speak. I've never as an adult been in a relationship with anyone else. Talking to this girl (again, not anything serious with her yet, mainly just good conversation) makes me realize that other people interact in different ways. W and I got along good before MLC, but I am starting to realize that I might actually get along better with someone else. You are right about missing being wanted. I certainly do. I am sure that is a big part of it, but I don't think that's all of it. Thank you so much for your support and advice.
DnJ: Sigh...as usual, you are right and I agree. I have been told multiple times since joining these boards that the advice that was given was a 2x4, but it never really felt like that. This time it did. Your advice and support is perfect and just what I needed to hear, but I didn't WANT to hear it. Being with and talking to this girl is very nice. I really like her. She is really smart, cute, and we have a lot in common. She is an environmental biologist. I know I probably shouldn't be talking to her yet. Its funny, now that you mention it, this is the stage I was fighting to get to...and now that I'm here I guess I'm already ready to fight to get to the next stage. I guess I need to stop a minute and appreciate just getting this far. Doing all of these things for yourself/ourselves is something that we say to each other over and over. I've kind of taken it on as a mantra to myself. Having said that, for whatever reason, reading it at the end of your comment to me was different this time. It actually MEANT something to me this time. I caught a glimpse of what that actually meant. Before, everything in my head was about W. Doing things for myself meant fixing myself...so that I could get W back. The second half of that was more subconscious, but still there. Now saying that was more in relation to standing without dating or moving on...not about W. Common denominator, me. I am the reason to do things without a subconscious anything else. I realize the direction I was heading and how talking to someone else changes that direction, whether for the good or the bad, it changes. I won't lie, I still want to talk to this girl. But I recognize a little better now why I shouldn't. Because it would be better for ME and my healing/growth. I think I might go reread the indifference/detachment comments you made. Curious if I would read it differently this time. As always, thank you so much for the advice, support, and needed 2x4's. Hopefully I will be able to use the advice wisely. I do have an observation regarding you. I may be wrong about this, but I noticed that you recently referred to your W as your STBXW. I don't think I've seen you refer to her as your STBX before. Do you think there is any deeper meaning there?
Gerda: Its good to hear from you. I always look for updates on your thread when I log in. I'm proud of you for standing strong when in a situation that could have lead to more. I now know how hard that can be. Throughout my marriage I never even tried to look at another woman so the lure of someone else is new to me. I mean, if some floozy flirts with me I probably wouldn't even notice it, but its a different story when the person is someone you might actually like and it happens more naturally. I often look out at the stars and let my mind wander as I contemplate the universe, but I haven't ever tried speaking out to it. I like that. I think I'll give that a try. Thank you so much! And Gerda, we love you too!!
I guess I have a lot to think about...which really is no different than before. I guess what I am thinking about is what is changing. Back to my ongoing effort of continual self improvement. Hope you guys are doing ok today. I want you all to be great, but that might be a tall order for some of us given the circumstances, so I will stick wth OK for today.
You sound really good, and here you were just shooting for OK.
I can see the happiness and confidence you have, it shows in your posts. That’s awesome! Feels good, doesn’t it?
Now figure out what is making you so happy. Btw, it is not the girl you are seeing / talking too. Once you figure it out you’ll realize you have it with you all the time, even on a Christmas morning with a less full household then you would like. That doesn’t mean you’ll be exuberant and doing back flips, just that will have peace and the patience to wait until your house is full of energy and kids running around again. Inner peace and happiness is incredibly strong. Cr@p may have given out a clue.
Originally Posted by sjohns6
The lunch wasn't really a date, but I absolutely felt like I was doing something wrong...like I was cheating. I did not do that again because it was obvious to me at that point that I was in no way ready to date. I felt like I was doing something wrong and it wasn't even a date. This time with the girl I met recently, it felt different. What felt wrong wasn't regarding cheating. What felt wrong was more to do with feeling like I might be misleading her somehow. Its hard to describe, but maybe like I felt like I had info that I wasn't disclosing.
I total get that. The feeling of misleading her somehow, oh yes.
I’ve chalked it up to as you have said not fully disclosing something - my feelings, my situation. A big part of it is that I do not want to break her heart, or cause pain - due to me not being ready.
Originally Posted by sjohns6
DnJ: Sigh...as usual, you are right and I agree. I have been told multiple times since joining these boards that the advice that was given was a 2x4, but it never really felt like that. This time it did. Your advice and support is perfect and just what I needed to hear, but I didn't WANT to hear it.
Your ability to accept constructive feedback is commendable. Just so you know swinging around 2x4s ain’t easy, I got all these slivers in my hands, I think I pulled a muscle in my arm, and I broke a nail - Sigh....
You know it is not all the advice is a 2x4, just the ones you need to hear. I know what you mean with I didn’t want to hear it. Imagine having DnJ advising you all day in your own head. OMG, I step out of line and I’m all over me. Ha ha. Lol.
Originally Posted by sjohns6
Doing all of these things for yourself/ourselves is something that we say to each other over and over. I've kind of taken it on as a mantra to myself. Having said that, for whatever reason, reading it at the end of your comment to me was different this time. It actually MEANT something to me this time. I caught a glimpse of what that actually meant. Before, everything in my head was about W. Doing things for myself meant fixing myself...so that I could get W back. The second half of that was more subconscious, but still there. Now saying that was more in relation to standing without dating or moving on...not about W. Common denominator, me. I am the reason to do things without a subconscious anything else.
This ^^^^. I am happy for you. Welcome to the profound.
Originally Posted by sjohns6
I think I might go reread the indifference/detachment comments you made. Curious if I would read it differently this time.
If you do, and would like to share, I would love to hear what how you now read it.
Originally Posted by sjohns6
I do have an observation regarding you. I may be wrong about this, but I noticed that you recently referred to your W as your STBXW. I don't think I've seen you refer to her as your STBX before. Do you think there is any deeper meaning there?
No real deep meaning, just being accurate. You may have missed my postings. On November 9 I basically was served divorce papers. W filed as soon as the one year since the October 10 2017 separation, actually she jump the gun a little.
This effort of her’s is looking to be completed even faster than her separation which was finalized in 61 days after BD, OM, move out, adultery admission, and throwing everything and everyone away. Wow a lot happened in those scant few days.
Anyhow, the divorce, which did catch me off guard, was forwarded to the courts on my Birthday, and if my L is correct on timing, and if nothing is held up, should be enacted on or about Christmas Day.
So I have been using STBXW - soon to be ex wife - since it is an accurate accounting of her status. I even updated my signature line for these weeks. I do switch to using W at times, to many damn letters to type in STBXW. Lol. Soon it will just be XW or maybe just X, small case maybe xw, or x. I don’t know, I’ll have to figure it out soon.
So that is why, no big deep meaning, just me being accurate and trying to see the big full picture denial free.
Take care.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Happy holidays everyone! I hope you all had the best Christmas possible!
Before getting to my Christmas journalling I have to say thank you to DNJ for the advice above. I have been chewing on it for a bit. The holidays are a time for self reflection and getting back to the basics of whats important and this year seems doubly so for me. Just trying to make the best decisions possible and gain some peace and happiness where I can.
I was worried about Christmas and how it was going to go. Last year I was an emotional mess...to the degree that I can't really even remember the day and how it went. This year W is living on her own and this week is my week with the kids. Every year Ws Mom, step dad, and brother come in from California and stay with us over the holiday week. This year, however, they will be staying with her instead. I guess that worked out ok since the kids were with me so their beds at Ws house were open for visitors. Of course that also means that W got to entertain her family (who love me, btw) without me OR her kids being there.
So, this past Sunday (day before Christmas eve) W had a dinner in the afternoon because her mom had just got to town and her cousin was coming over to visit. She invited me (asked if I wanted to come and bring the kids when normally asks if the kids can come when making plans) so I took the kids over there. I did not think much of it as I haven't been feeling anything towards W lately. I was wrong. It felt really awkward. Nothing to do with the family, they were all happy to see us and the dinner went well. I just hadn't spent more than 5 minutes in her house, and here I was hanging out with all the family and spending hours there. Eating off of some of my old dishes, sitting at my old table, visiting with my old family. It was emotionally very difficult. I felt like the elephant in the room...but not because of how anyone acted towards me.
The next day was Christmas Eve. I worked a few hours in the morning, but then went home to the kids. W was having a Christmas Eve dinner with her family so I took the kids back over there. This time it was much easier. I just hung out and visited with the family and it was nice. Leaving was hard because I was leaving on Christmas Eve to go home with just me and the kids to open 1 gift and wrap the rest...by myself this year. I agreed to have Christmas morning with W since I'd be spending the rest of the day with my family.
I stayed up till 2:30am wrapping all the presents. Then, I got up at 6:30 with daughter and the festivities began. It was hard waking up and doing stockings/presents without W. The kids LOVED all their gifts. They told me that if they got nothing else, they were happy with all that they got from me and I had hit everything on Ds list. I took some cute pics of the kids opening presents and texted them to W. She was very receptive and responsive to the texts...which is something kind of new since all this began a couple years ago.
After opening gifts, we packed up and went to BILs house (Ws brother). They had a full house and it was a great time. There were several points over the course of the morning that things seemed so "normal" that I forgot about our situation for a minute. Spending time visiting with her family and chatting about normal stuff. When it came time for present opening, W had filled a stocking for me. Had all the normal stuff she has always put in there. Fancy soaps and candy. She even put underwear in there. It seemed kind of weird that she bought me underwear given the circumstances...even if it was just a stocking stuffer. Then, she had bought me a gift as well. I also noticed that on at least several of the gifts she got for her family she signed it from all of us. Her name, my name, and the kids names. That seemed strange to me, again...given the circumstances.
Leaving was hard. Things seemed so normal for a bit...but then I had to leave and take the kids to my familys house...without her. The rest of the day was fun and relaxing as I hung out with my family.
So, these last few days have really made my head spin a bit. I have not spent any substantial amount of time around W at all lately and I had really begun to feel indifferent towards her. I kind of felt like I was on the verge of being free from her emotionally. I now realize that it was probably the distance between us that was allowing me to break free from the emotional bondage I was experiencing. After spending more time with/around W these last few days, I realize that I do still have feelings. And, being around her I noticed a slight change in her from the last time I noticed how she was doing (haven't been watching her and trying to figure out her stage in a while). She invited me over and not just the kids. She was responsive to a back and forth of text. She bought me a gift and signed other gifts from us.
So, none of that is to say that I have any expectations of W. I do not have any renewed hope towards reconciliation nor will I be doing anything different other than just living my life. It was surprising, though. Makes me wonder if W is actually still in there somewhere poking her head out of the tunnel a little to look around. I know holidays are a more emotional time and brings out the feelers for everyone. Once we are fully back in to every day mode I am sure W will return to her regular MLC confusion.
Now, a few days till my birthday and it will technically be Ws day with the kids. Wonder how that will play out. So many days to not quite look forward to this month. Looking forward to 2019!!
If you want the kids with you on your day then you should ask her
I can see how all of the above would make your head spin
Particularly the from us on the presents
I do not know if I could have done what you did with her family
But you are you
Take care
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
St. John...Thanks for hitting me up on my thread. We are kind of on the same crazy train of emotions I sure, but I know after the emotions of the holiday time closes we will be able to drop that rope a bit more. We all pray for Christmas miracles and kind of get that thought in our head that it might happen for up. While I believe that miracles can happen I want us to stay the course and be strong for ourselves and our kids.
I had forgotten that you were in TX, but I forget where you are. I'm in SETX, but travel to Houston and Dallas regularly. Maybe we can get together over a beer one of these days.
Happy Birthday and Happy New Years to you my friend.
Me 49 W46 T25 M22 S22 D18 S13 W had EA Apr-Jul 2016 Dropped Bomb 7/9/16 ILYBINILWYA HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17 Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
I think it means a lot. Everyting you mention -- as a woman, I assure you, those womanly nurturing things are very purposefully done, and with a lot of pleasure too. I think you should keep hope alive.
My H hung out with us a lot too, and it was nice and my kids were really happy. He even at one point took out his buzzer and asked me to buzz the hair on his neck -- granted it was part of whining about how he has no money to go to a barber, but it's still a very wife-ly thing to ask someone to do.
Next day, he took the car and left town. Freaked him out to get close, I guess. And he has done some gross things since.
Point is, it's a pendulum. But at some point, Bob from Rejoice Ministries always says, if you keep the faith, the pendulum is gonna swing all the way back over. It's just a question if you want to make it clear that you are open to it. Maybe you don't yet. Maybe you never will. But to me it definitely sounds like she is thinking of you in a good way. Gifts to you and everything, and signing things from the both of you especially. I imagine she was very confused by her own feelings too.
Last edited by Gerda; 12/29/1801:56 AM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
sjohn...have't heard from you in a while. If you are still keeping watch, I will be i your neck of the woods the end of this week. Not sure of my schedule, because I will be taking care of my dad after a procedure. I will be up in Irving (635/MacArthur) area. Might be able to get together for a beer. Either repost here or hit me up on my thread.
Me 49 W46 T25 M22 S22 D18 S13 W had EA Apr-Jul 2016 Dropped Bomb 7/9/16 ILYBINILWYA HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17 Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
Good to hear from you. Yeah, I haven't posted in a bit, but I'm still lurking in the background. I haven't had much to post lately so I've just been chugging along taking it day by day.
I'd love to try and meet up with you if it works out. My daughter has a school play Thursday through Saturday (evening performances) so that might be the only hickup in my schedule. Let me know when you'll have free time and I'll see if I can head up that way.
I bought my daughter tickets to see Panic at the Disco at the Houston Rodeo so I'll be near you the first weekend in March.
Hope everyone is doing well. Love and miss you all!! (((LBS Crew)))
I’m up here and available tonight. Dad lives in Irving. Could use a beer and bbq. Let me know.
Me 49 W46 T25 M22 S22 D18 S13 W had EA Apr-Jul 2016 Dropped Bomb 7/9/16 ILYBINILWYA HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17 Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
Me 49 W46 T25 M22 S22 D18 S13 W had EA Apr-Jul 2016 Dropped Bomb 7/9/16 ILYBINILWYA HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17 Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
Me 49 W46 T25 M22 S22 D18 S13 W had EA Apr-Jul 2016 Dropped Bomb 7/9/16 ILYBINILWYA HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17 Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
Sjohn, I settled on another meal from Bob’s Chophouse. Probably the only single person there on Vday. Oh well. It is what it is. I hope the performance was good.
Me 49 W46 T25 M22 S22 D18 S13 W had EA Apr-Jul 2016 Dropped Bomb 7/9/16 ILYBINILWYA HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17 Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
The play was great! I'm sorry I missed you! I really wish this week didn't have such a hectic schedule. Maybe we can try again. Tonight is another performance, but she plays a different character. Then tomorrow is my sons VB practice and the last performance of the play...and its my dads bday. We are celebrating his bday on Sunday, though. This week/weekend is one of the busier ones in a while.
No problem my brother. I'm sure I will be back up sooner rather than later. Have a great weekend.
Me 49 W46 T25 M22 S22 D18 S13 W had EA Apr-Jul 2016 Dropped Bomb 7/9/16 ILYBINILWYA HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17 Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
And that isn't to say that I'm all the way better, just that I've been on the forums long enough now to pretty much know how to handle the ups and downs I go through without needing to be told. I just ask myself, what would Gordie, DnJ, Gerda, Job, and about half a dozen others say to me in this situation?
That is a very good demonstration of healing. Well done!
You missed someone from your list, IMHO. He is smart, on a good path, and has quite a bit of hard earned wisdom.
What’s his name... oh ya... sjohns6. He’s a good guy, I listen to him.
Enjoy the day.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Hi Gerda! Its so good to hear from you! I was so happy to see your name pop up on the boards!Isn't it funny how these names have come to represent us in such a meaningful way to others even though they aren't even really our names? You are one of my favorite people!!
Its been so long since I've written anything I am not even sure where to begin. I guess I should start by saying that I am doing ok. With every day that passes I get better. But, at the same time, me getting better also makes me a little sad. I have gotten to the point that I do not think about me and W getting back together much. I feel my feelings for her either fading into nothing or being bricked up behind an impenetrable wall. I'm not sure which it is, because the result is that I don't really feel them much any more. That makes me a little sad because when I was depressed about my marriage and wanting everything to work out between us and for our relationship to be restored, that felt right to me...even if it was unhealthy for me emotionally. Losing that feeling of wanting things to work out is the natural progression and what I should be working towards and I admit to not wanting to feel depressed all the time. And to clarify, I am not saying that I am hoping that things never work out, just that I am losing or have lost the desire that they do...I'm just moving on. Accepting that is what makes me a little sad.
W seems to be a little nicer to me these days. I don't think shes out of the tunnel yet or anything, but her demeanor seems a little different. Before she had her cold dead eyes and a cold look she'd give me. It would seem that she would go out of her way to not talk to me at times, and would only contact me if she absolutely had to for scheduling the kids stuff. Now, her eyes are not quite as cold and dead. She looks at me a lot more when she talks, and she initiates conversations a little more. Nothing big, but after 2 years of coldness from her, it seems different. Of course this comes at a time where I feel pretty emotionally distant from her. Emotionally I don't really feel like I care how she's changing a little. I feel like it is just an observation on my part. I mean, after 2 years of being treated like yesterdays trash, a little bit of niceness isn't going to fix things for me. I don't trust her with my heart and at this point I have no reason to think that I ever should.
My kids seem to be doing well...with me at least. My daughter still seems to not like her mother much at all. She is pretty rude to her and will barely engage in any kind of conversation with her mother. W seems to be trying with her, but D will have none of it. It would kill me if D ever treated me the way she treats W. D and I, on the other hand, are closer than we've ever been. We do stuff together all the time and always seem to have a blast! S is 15 and fully engaged in his own personal life. I think he finds some of his moms behavior a little annoying, but mostly he is just doing his own thing.
I feel like I've learned so much from these boards and it has helped me in navigating this difficult experience. I really do not know what I would have done without all of you! Lately I have been trying to stay off the boards a little. Sometimes I feel like reading all the stories is a stumbling block for me because it causes me to relive much of the pain I've experienced over the last couple of years. But, I can't help but come back and catch up on you guys stories because you have become such an important part of my life.
So, overall I'm doing pretty well. I am about a month away from it being a year since W moved out (the last time anyways). I am hoping that date passing won't be hard. I don't think it will be because the hard dates for me these days have more to do with missing being a happy family, not necessarily anything to do with mine and Ws relationship. I'm wondering if that ship has sailed in regards to reconciliation. I can' even picture living with her anymore. I can't even picture sharing an intimate conversation with her anymore.
Oh, and DNJ, I'm sorry I never replied to your last message. I did not see it. You are such a good man and I appreciate you checking on me. That was such a kind thing to say, and I'm glad you feel that way. I like being included in that list of names!
Hi Gerda! Its so good to hear from you! I was so happy to see your name pop up on the boards!Isn't it funny how these names have come to represent us in such a meaningful way to others even though they aren't even really our names? You are one of my favorite people!!
Oh my gosh, REALLY? That means a lot a lot a lot to me. It's funny how little we all know each other but how in these few words on these few threads, we end up finding our like-minded friends and really being there for each other. It is often so hard to see myself as likable after the last 6 years so I had to read your words like ten times and try to push out of my mind the thought, "Oh but he really doesn't know me!"
I think there has been a theme this week among my guy friends on the boards of feeling that lingering love for your W is a form of weakness. So I will say it to you too -- those feelings are to those of us LBS wives, or at least this one, a sign of real hope. Maybe not hope that they will all come back but hope that love is real, and worth it. Your lingering love is a light to me, and I understand why you don't see anything to feel hope about and don't think you want to go back, but from the outside, I not only see that as a possibility always for you and your W but, even if it doesn't happen, it's proof to me that unconditional love is possible, and I never want to stop believing in that.
I was just reading those old posts by "Amy" that someone bumped up. They really hit me, and I recommend them to you. She really articulated how many lies she was believing and telling others about her spouse. When she began to see that she was believing something untrue, things started to shift. It really inspired me to read that.
Anyway, thanks for the kind words, made my day!
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Thank you, Gerda! I love the way you see things. I suppose you are right, our lingering feelings despite what we've been been put through, does suggest that unconditional love is a real thing. Maybe not something that everyone is capable of, but that it is indeed a real thing. And obviously that is in reference to romantic love, I think we all know it exists in the relationships we have with our children.
I loved reading Amy Cs posts. To the point that I copied and pasted them to a word doc so that I could reread them without having to hunt them down. I also really liked reading Stayed's and her husbands posts. Have you read those? Her husbands comments are very enlightening, especially after reading what they went through. There is also another former MLCer that posted quite a bit on another forum. She was danjef34. She shared quite a bit.
A bit of journaling after mothers day. Mother's day was my weekend with the kids, but of course I took them to Ws house to let them spend some time together for mothers day. She wanted them to make her brunch so the day before I took the kids to the grocery store to pick up the stuff, and took them to the mall to get a gift for her...and to buy her flowers. The next morning when I took them over to her house, I was unsure whether I should stay with them or just drop them off to spend time with her. I had plans to take them with me to my moms after so if I just dropped them off it would only be for a couple of hours. So, I asked her if she wanted me to just drop them off since I didn't want to interfere with her time with them. She said if I didn't mind dropping them off. Then she paused and followed up with that I could stay if i wanted to. That wasn't really the invitation I was looking for so I decided it probably best to leave. I was then putting on my shoes when she offered me coffee...so I ended up staying. It was kind of weird. She is pleasant enough around me, but we just seem so distant. She feels like someone I barely know, not a person I spent 20 years of my life with and was my best friend and lover. Eventually time was over and we left for my moms.
When I got to my moms house, she shared with me that W had texted her a nice mothers day message. I was surprised at this. W has not contacted my family for anything pretty much since BD. W was like a daughter to my mom, and like a sister to my sisters. Lots of love all around. After BD, W pretty much stopped talking to them. She didn't ignor them or be rude to them, just kind of stopped reaching out to them for anything. My mom reached out to her once early on. It was a loving and motherly message, and Ws reply to it almost read like a goodbye. I have always loved and respected you and despite what happens...yada yada...that kind of reply. Well, Ws mothers day message said "I learned so much on how I want to raise S and D from watching you. I respect you so much as a mother and grandmother. I hope you get spoiled today, you deserve it. Happy mothers day!" Then, my mom replied with " Oh (Ws name), thank you and I love you. You have taught me a lot as well - we've learned from each other. Happy mothers day to the beautiful mother of my sweet grandbabies! (they will always be grand "babies" to me!" Then wife followed up with "I love you, enjoy the day!"
This back and forth was pretty surprising to me. I have not heard W say I love you to anyone but our kids for quite some time. Possibly a couple of years. For it to be to my mom. And for her to send such a nice message to my mom who she hasn't talked to in quite some time...and not as a reply. W initiated that. I don't even know what to make of that...so I file it away. No expectations...GAL, detach.
Anyways...I hope all of you are doing ok today. Its a beautiful day in TX. Let me know if you have any feedback, but otherwise just journaling a bit.
I can tell you that after we have gone through what we have
I find it hard to say ILY too
Glad you are doing well
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
You know, I didn't even think about it, but I also have a hard time saying ILY. Easy to say it to my kids, but not to anyone else. I guess the words mean a lot more to me know so I'm a bit hesitant to just throw them out there like a greeting.
Looks like DnJ and I are making the same rounds to our favorite dads!
Happy Father's Day to a man whose kind heart beams out through these few lines on these threads. It is clear you are a good man, a loving father, a kind kind soul. Thank you for reminding me that such a thing is possible!
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Gerda, it was so nice to see your fathers day message to me just now. I'm so sorry I missed it earlier. I pop in from time to time to catch up on everyone's situation, but I haven't checked my own thread in some time. You are often in my thoughts and I imagine always will be. Your H is a fool. That was a lovely poem!
Wow, I can't believe it has been over a year since I updated my thread. I had to stop coming here so often because I realized it was holding me back a little. I was spending too much time in my head thinking about everything instead of moving myself forward. Its a delicate balancing act sometimes.
I thought I would journal a little today. Where to begin since its been over a year...
A quick recap, W and I started dating in high school. After 6 years of dating she got pregnant and we got married in the same year. A year after our S was born she got pregnant again and we had our daughter. Fast forward many years, we had a happy family and were very close. We did family vacations, both had good jobs, went on dates as often as possible, and our families blended well. Lots of love to go around. Then in the fall of 2016, she started becoming a little distant. She started working out, worrying about her appearance more, and starting to go out with coworkers after work for happy hour. Then in January of 2017, BD. She had an EA with a coworker. I did the whole begging and trying to fix things for a few months before i found this site. For about a year and a half I pretzeled myself trying to work things out. I tried really hard to use all the DB stuff and GAL. Its not for the faint of heart, but I love my family and would do anything to keep it together. Lots of minor details of things along the way that I won't list out here again. Then, in June of 2018, W moved out to her own place. Since then we have traded the kids weekly. My son is 16 and my daughter 14. It has pretty much been just status quo for 2 years now. In that time I have been much better. Getting used to the idea of not being married. Not saying I liked it or wanted it, but getting used to it and coming back to myself. Or, something that I feel is more me than I have been in the last 3 years...so I'm making progress! That is not to say that I don't still have triggering moments, but I can say that they are not as bad as they were and are short lived when they happen. Having said that, I am in one of those triggering moments now. More on that in a minute...
As far as the nuances of W's situation, where do I start? Well, firstly, W has yet to file for D. Its been years now and she has not even brought it up. Seems weird to me that if she needed so bad to be gone that she wouldn't finalize it, but comes with the territory I guess. I have thought about doing it myself, but I never seem to want to move forward with it, although i don't see why we would stay married if we aren't even really friends. I mean we are cordial to each other I guess, but I feel like I have closer relationships with the people that work at the grocery store. In the last 2 years, W and I only talk to each other about the scheduling of kid stuff. The conversations are usually cordial. She is nice for the few minutes we interact, but radio silence unless the kids have something going on. The kids relationship with her is strained, but they get along. Me and the kids have a very close and loving relationship and they complain about her often. Generally it is stuff regarding what I will sum up as selfishness. Running late getting them places, not taking care of things that they need taking care of, and a general aloofness around them. Where we have friction is when she plans things without telling me, or doesn't include me in some type of thing I should be in the know about, or should be included in. Sometimes she includes me on the most trivial things, but doesn't tell me about important stuff. its like she can't tell what she needs to share, so does it randomly when shes thinking about it. That pretty much sums up the last 2 years without all the details of individual events.
Now, in the last few months, I have seen a SLIGHT change in her. She seems to be making a little more effort to communicate. Its weird because after the last 2 years, I have all but stopped looking for any signs as to where shes at in her process. She will call me occasionally to tell me about something related to the kids..stuff that she probably didn't need to tell me. Or to ask my opinion on something on something that doesn't really even matter. Like she is looking for an excuse to talk, but it doesn't lead to anything else and then its radio silence again for a while. I generally just react in kind. It throws me off because after 3 and a half years, I have all but stopped expecting any kind of niceties from her. In the past month we have had 2 conversations where we discussed our situation for real. One time was because her and D had gotten in to it and D wasn't talking to her. It was Ds week with me and she hadn't been replying to her M or answering her calls, so W (feels weird rto still refer to her as W, but we aren't divorced) wanted to come over and try and work things out with her. I agreed and prepped D to have an open dialog. I encouraged her to say what she felt and to not hold back. That it was good to have open communication with the people you love and to not to hold any resentment. W came over and I could not believe their conversation. D unloaded on her saying how she checked out years ago, she doesn't respect her as a mother or see her as a role model, and on and on. W took it in stride as if this was an age old conversation between them. D has NEVER talked to me like that. W seems to see it as teenager behavior. W asked if I wanted to talk so we stepped outside and had a long conversation. I can't remember all that was said, but I said a lot. W seems to be poking her head out a little. She talked about the shame she felt for her decisions and how she had been depressed through a lot of it...and that she was trying. I asked what it was she was doing to TRY as her and I barely even spoke. There was a lot of back and forth and it ended with her saying that we should talk more. Then, radio silence again for a few weeks. One thing I did say to her was that I had stopped making any efforts because after years of trying with no effort on her part, I stopped because she had told me it was over and to move on. It hurt too much to continue to put forth effort for it to be dismissed by her while she treated me with contempt. Also, another thing I mentioned was that if she were going to plan anything with the kids that involved me at all or would affect me, or that I should know about, she needed to let me know up front. Especially if it had to do with my time with the kids.
Fast forward a few weeks and I find out through my son that she was planning a trip to see her mom in another state and that they would be leaving in the middle of the week on MY week with them. I called her and made a big deal about it after the conversation we had had. She apologized for me finding out that way and told me she had only just planned it. I said that she had told the kids before me and that was wrong. Well, fast forward another week and I find out that it is actually next week (which is this week) that they would be going. I called and complained again and she just said she thought we had covered that it was this week when we had our last talk. She seems genuinely apologetic and I think she thinks she told me. And, this vacation she is taking them on is one that we have taken as a family many times, only this time without me.
So, overall I have been doing pretty good, but this week has me a little down. I should have my kids through Friday evening, but instead I am helping them pack tonight to leave early in the morning for a family vacation that I will not be going on. Looking forward to these types of things to stop affecting me.
Thanks for letting me journal...I needed to get some of that out. I hope all of you are well.
Sjohn, it was kind of a treat to see such a long post from you. I just wish it wasn't a sad post. However, your sadness here is proof of your goodness, not your weakness. I explain below.
I am going through something similar (go figure) but mine is about six hundred and seventy million times more repulsive and chock full of Covid risks and outright evil. So it might help to know that it could be way worse.
Now the other thing I want to say is that this story proves YET AGAIN that you are a good man with a true and loving heart. Unfortunately, when you are a good man with a true and loving heart, it is going to hurt when someone does something to hurt you.
For a bad man with a false and unloving heart, when someone hurts you, it doesn't hurt. Or it does, so you go crazy (at the time or maybe thirty years after the hurt) and leave your wife and kids. Or get wasted. Or kick a dog. Or shoot heroin. Or…. You get the idea. If you didn’t feel what you feel, you might start on the list above in order to feel or not feel something else.
What I mean is that there is nothing wrong with your response and it is a good and right response to feel sad, unsettled, like something is off. Something is off!
You should be going together on that trip.
You should have your time with your kids.
If your W is going to change timing, she should let you know a month ahead. If she had to change it last minute, she should let you know as soon as she knows and be very apologetic and ask if it's okay with you to switch and offer you an extra few days off her next week.
If she knows the memory of that particular place is going to hurt your true and loving heart, she should let you know extra early and include a note about how she has many happy memories of being there as a family and hope you won't mind that she wanted to take the kids there again and hopes that you will have something just as wonderful to do while they are gone.
A man being sad over a memory of a time spent with me that he can't have anymore is the dream of every lady on this board so again, keep in mind, that is the right response from you even if it’s the wrong response from your was-wife. (That works better with “was-band.”)
But if she doesn't do these things, and if she left a good man with a true and loving heart to begin with, the right response is that you feel pain. Pain means your heart is alive.
What folks do with pain who do not have any kind of faith practice, I don't know.
Well, actually I do know one bad thing to do. I used to really enjoy cigarettes when I felt like that. I also liked to cry my head off. I still like to cry my head off but I usually do it while praying so I am crying directly to Someone who then comforts me. I really do feel that comfort after.
You’re doing it all right, Sjohn. That’s why it hurts.
Also (Sam) thanks for the nice thing you said in paragraph one. Those little things are quite a life raft for me these days as per what I wrote on my and Gordie’s threads. I read that about fourteen times to do battle with the various bullets flying into my mind of why that wasn’t true. Gerda has a few demons of her own, clearly.
So now that we’ve figured everything out – what can you come up with to do while you are alone this week that is really awesome and amazing. Write a short story? Turn the garage into a tiny house rental? Mow the neighbor’s lawn? Plant apple trees in the yard? (I have an apple tree out on my city street. Someone stole two of the five apples but I am still hopeful. Everyday I push the leaves around them so no one can see them growing so that me and my kids can each eat one. If you know where I live you can know that this is a true exercise in impossible faith.)
I just took off way too much time from work to write this.
Last edited by Gerda; 07/24/2005:48 PM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
1 I stopped coming around for the same reason. 2 You and I both started in the fall of 2016...that's a long time. 3 W hasn't filed...sjohn6 hasn't either...what's that mean? 4 Sometimes makes some effort to communicate...interesting. 5 Non-family vacation...stinks.
I wish I had advice for you, but I don't so I'll just offer some comfort that you are not alone, you are not crazy...you are a good man...who is doing his best in a crappy situation.
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
SJohn.... that really [censored] about the family vacay. I know how it feels but you have to start thinking of it as the kids going somewhere with their mom...not a family vacay. Family vacays aren’t happening anymore unfortunately. I get that that is probably just a technicality but when my kids do stuff with their dad, I don’t think of it as family time...I choose to think of it as dad time. My thoughts regarding how to manage this besides the reframe? Plan your own getaway with your kids. It doesn’t have to be an epic trip...even a couple days will help. Make your own memories that don’t include their mom. Last year, my XH took OW to Hawaii on our 12th wedding anniversary. My solution to that was to take our kids and his mom (yes, I know...weird but they love their grandma and she loved going with us) to San Diego. We had a blast and I barely thought about XH at all.
Detachment is key SJohn. Keep working on it. When you find yourself focusing on what was lost, turn your focus to what has been gained. If you can’t think of many things, that tells you that this is what you need to be paying more attention to. For myself, I have met and made many new friends I would not have met if we were still together. I’ve strengthened existing friendships. I’ve worked on me. I went after and got a new higher-paying job. I’ve set some goals. I’ve dated and even though I haven’t met someone significant yet, it has helped me realize that there are other people out there. Good people who appreciate what I have to offer. I’ve said goodbye to my old life and the future I thought I would have and I’m working on building a new one. The more I do this, the less my XH and his activities affect me. I was a mess two years ago. Did not think I would ever find relief from the pain of it. I am so much stronger now and I am happy. I barely think of him anymore and I did not think that was possible. You can get there too. (((HUGS)))
sjohn6 - If she has done nothing towards divorce after all this time, is it because it benefits her financially to do nothing? Does it mean she gets to stay on your insurance, or is building up a larger interest in your pension, or in some other way financially gaining by delaying? Because while it is common for WASs to be slow to deal with the paperwork of divorce, this is pretty unusual to go this long without dealing with it, and when that happens, its often because there's a financial benefit to staying in limbo.
Sjohn, my friend, I think of you so often and wonder how you are.
Maybe you will see this post sometime, me telling you, Happy Father's Day. I know all that you have done in your life for your children, and that flood of love made light in this world.
Sara in Her Father’s Arms by George Oppen
Cell by cell the baby made herself, the cells Made cells. That is to say The baby is made largely of milk. Lying in her father’s arms, the little seed eyes Moving, trying to see, smiling for us To see, she will make a household To her need of these rooms—Sara, little seed, Little violent, diligent seed. Come let us look at the world Glittering: this seed will speak, Max, words! There will be no other words in the world But those our children speak. What will she make of a world Do you suppose, Max, of which she is made.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Time for a new thread and please link this one to it.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
I'll keep working on that.