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kiro Offline OP
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Hi everyone,

I decided to move my thread from Newcomers to Midlife Crisis section

1st thread: Need advice on detaching

2nd thread: Need advice on detaching- Part 2


Here is a brief summary of my story:

BD 7/23/2017, exactly 1 year ago
At time of BD:
Me 47 (now 48), W 39 (now 40)
M 17 years (now 18)
S16 (now 17) and S12 (now 13)
W moved out last xMas 2017

Some background info:
As far as I know, W never had any relationships prior to ours. She was 21 when we met. She was very conservative, religious, low self esteem and very dependent. She had no friends or very few. She never drank alcohol, never did any drugs, and never really partied during her teenage years. She had been what we could call a "good girl", studying, spending time home with her mother and grandmother...

Her parents got divorced also after 17 years of marriage. She was the same age as our eldest son. Her mother got married at the same age as her (22) and got divorced around 39 or 40, which is her age when she moved out.

W was very close to her mother. Her mother died from cancer in 2006. MIL had been living thousands of miles away. Before she died, W spent the last month with her. When she came back, she never brought the subject again and kept all the pain buried inside.

Our marriage:
I never saw it coming before BD. I thought we had a good happy marriage. We had our fights from time to time, but I thought this was normal. In retrospect, when we fought she would say things that seemed totally exaggerated, but I always thought this was just her way to try and push my buttons. Then, we would usually reconcile after we calm down and everything would become normal again.

We had our first son 9 months after getting married. So we never really had much time to live together as a couple without kids. She's the one who wanted to have children right away. She had been a good mother, very caring for her children. She took care of them, took care of the house, and initially didn't want to work. After our 2nd son was about 2, I am the one who started pushing her to try and find a job. She reluctantly started working part time then.

Other than that, we did what most families do. We spent a lot of time together at home, either with or without the kids, we went out for dinners, movies, parks, we traveled on most holidays, visited family, and so on. Our intimate life was active too.

She often blamed me for criticizing a lot. It is true that I was uptight, often stressed, and would comment on many small things more that I should have. But I always thought she exaggerated and actually pushed my buttons by repeating that. I usually blamed her, jokingly, that she didn't have any interests and didn't want to do anything. She just wanted to stay home in her bed or watching TV. I always wanted to go out, do something, or have fun.

I was always the romantic one. I tried a lot but she was always cold and distant. But I accepted and we were happy. That's what I thought. But I also had my own emotional downs from time to time, feeling depressed and sad.

The last 2 years before BD, she started changing but I had seen it as positive changes for the most part. She started dressing better, taking better care of herself, started making more friends, exercised more, became more interested in activities and hobbies, started reading more... But she also started doing things I would have never thought she would for a conservative and religious person. She went to a men strip club with some girls at her work (I agreed to it), she started drinking wine on occasions, and slowly stopped praying.

Another noticeable thing during the last few years before BD is that she wouldn't get angry when we fought and she would just say things like "I don't care" "It's hopeless anyway" etc. But then we would reconcile and things would look great. So I didn't really pay much attention to these comments. But she became even colder emotionally to me and then her emotional detachment started slowly spreading to her relationship with the kids.

The last year before BD, she stopped caring at all about the kids activities and interests. I took them to any event. Then, her big thing for the last 6 months before BD was biking. She registered to a fund raising biking event, bought an expensive bike and started practicing with a team. She would go out all week-ends all day. She would go out after work. The kids and I were supportive and I started taking care of more responsibilities at home.

Her BD happened a few weeks after she finished this biking event.

To be continued...


Me:49 XW:41, M:18 years, Kids: S18,S14
BD:JULY 2017, W moved out: DEC 2017
Filed for D: APR 2019, D Final: JULY 2019
Joined: Mar 2018
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kiro Offline OP
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Summary from BD (July 2017) to W leaving (Dec 2017):

A few weeks before BD, we had a nasty fight because I wanted her to plan with me our summer vacation. She had been postponing this for months and this was our last chance to plan something before kids school. The week-end we were supposed to plan this, she wanted to go out. Anyway, we fought. Then the next day, I insisted that we have a talk. I promised that I would improve the things that annoyed her and in exchange, I asked that she starts caring more about me and the family and become less distant.

For the next 4 weeks, I did my best to become a better person, not criticize and be more pleasant to everyone. But she remained as distant. I ended up sending her a text telling her that she had not done enough, that she was selfish, spoiled, and cold.

On July 23 (a Sunday), I asked to go out for a coffee. This is when I told me very coldly that I was right, that she didn't care, didn't love me and wanted to separate. This is when everything started crumbling.

I begged for a day. Then, I reached out to 2 members of her family. They didn't want to get involved and told me that she knows what she wants. Then I reached out to a common couple friends. They helped us, we talked. I promised to fix all the things that she didn't like. Then she finally agreed to stay.

Then a rollercoaster started for the next 5 months. She would be distant for a few weeks, would repeat that she wants to separate. Then, she would come back and say that she's back and wants to stay.

We had a vacation week planned for the 2nd week of August. She didn't want to go, but we couldn't change the travel plans, so we ended up traveling as a family. During the trip, I was reading the book "five languages of love". I read her a part where a man had left his wife with OW. I never suspected an affair. I was reading to make another point, but she burst in tears (which is something that never happens) and she said that she was in love in OM. She said nothing had happened other than flirting for the past year or 2. But 1 day before BD, he had made his first move to her.

I was shocked, but we continued the trip under a lot of pain. When we came back, I sent her a text telling her that she needed to choose between OM or me. She texted back that she chose me and that she loved me. Then, she cried a lot for the next 2 days and spent a lot of time alone, mostly outside of the house.

After a couple of weeks, she said she's back in the marriage and everything was normal again. I was naive and believed it. Beginning of September, we had 2 our best weeks ever, almost like a new honeymoon.

I thought everything was fixed, but then she became distant again and said it wasn't working and she wanted to leave.

This is when I found a marriage coaching program online and started following it. It preached the exact opposite of DBing. It preaches putting love first, and pursuing the loved one through daily talk charges (short frivolous conversations), touch charges (kisses, hugs, etc.), weekly gifts, date nights, and so on. I started doing this, and she started getting more and more distant.

But I also worked on myself at the same time and fixed my flaws. In a way, I also did 180s. I became kind, generous, loving, caring, easy going, fun, etc.

It was a tough time until just before xMas, she told me she rented an apartment and would be moving out during the holidays. She was still saying that she just needed some time alone to figure out what she wanted, but that she would be coming home and spending a lot of time with us.


Me:49 XW:41, M:18 years, Kids: S18,S14
BD:JULY 2017, W moved out: DEC 2017
Filed for D: APR 2019, D Final: JULY 2019
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Kiro

Sorry you are here

I have lived much of what you wrote

Let us know how we can help


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
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kiro Offline OP
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Very briefly what happened from Jan to now:

Around the time she left, I had started reading more articles about Midlife Crisis and was starting to question the pursuing approach. In particular, I read everything on the heartsblessing website. It's not until February or March that I found this forum and bought the DB and DR books.

But the first 2 months after separation, I still continued the pursuing approach. I was not trying to manipulate or put pressure. I really believe the message of putting love first. I thought I was trying to implement better habits to build an emotional connection between us and my intent was to continue these loving habits for the rest of my life.

But she was not replying to any of my calls. She went total NC. Even when I would text her or call her to ask about something for the kids, she wouldn't answer. Once my S13 wanted to bake a cake, but I didn't know where to find some of the ingredients. I left her a voice message asking her, but she returned an angry text saying that "she wasn't my help line" that I was an adult and my kids were grown ups. It is around this time that I really started to wake up and understand what was really going on.

On Valentine's day, I still sent her a card saying that there was still a place in my heart for her and that I was happy she had been part of my life.

Toward the end of February, I decided it was time for me to stop the pursuing and start going NC myself. I managed to talk to her on the phone. Initially, I wanted to tell her that I was tired of trying and that it was over, but I couldn't say it. So instead I said that I just wanted her to know that I loved her smile But I think she was able to tell in my voice that I was calling to say something else. And that was it. Since then, we have almost been NC except a very few cases that I described in some of my previous threads.


Me:49 XW:41, M:18 years, Kids: S18,S14
BD:JULY 2017, W moved out: DEC 2017
Filed for D: APR 2019, D Final: JULY 2019
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kiro Offline OP
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Thanks Gordie

I think I will write 1 more long post with some additional things that I think could be relevant and then my next posts will be about where I am now and some specific questions I have.

Here are some relevant things I have been thinking about over the past year:

- W never told me anything about her childhood or about her experience when her parents divorced. This has always been a black box with a lot of secrecy. Similarly, I don't know much about how she lived her adolescence years. I made up my own conclusions.

- After BD, W told me a few interesting things about history of depression in her family. Surprisingly that these were never mentioned during the previous 17 years. I had always suspected that her mother suffered from depression, but it turned out that she had been seeing doctors and had been taking medication. I also discovered that both of her grandmothers also suffered from depression and so did her father.

- And maybe this is 1 of the reasons my MIL brother chose to be a psychiatrist.

- Her parents were divorced. MIL sister was divorced twice. Many of MIL friends were divorced women. So my W grew up in an environment where this was the norm.

- Her father was very distant from my W. She always had father issues, but she wouldn't talk about it a lot.

- My BIL has been married for close to 10 years, but they have decided not to have kids. I always wondered if this was due to what they went through as children.

- As a family, we were very close to my parents, my sisters and the rest of my extended family. After MIL passed away, we almost never saw anyone from her family. BIL and FIL live far away, and there was no communication with them or very few.

- I almost didn't know my FIL until I started calling him more regularly in January. He was very sad about the separation and tried to support me. But he has been remarried and his priority has always been his new wife over his kids. He came to visit my W for a few days in April. He couldn't help reconcile the M as he thought he would. I think it brought very bad memories for him, and he was shacking all the time and emotionally more devastated than I was. I don't think I know all the details about what happened when they were young, between him and MIL and between him and his kids. But I know that it was ugly and the parents put the kids in the middle of their fights.

A few things about my W since BD:

- She was religious, but started talking almost as an atheist.

- She became very selfish and it's all about me, me, me. She repeated often that it's her time and that it was Okay to be selfish.

- She totally lost her motherly instincts. I have the kids full time. Initially, she wanted shared custody, but she left the kids with me since January, and doesn't show any interest in seeing them. S17 hadn't been to her place for over 2 months. He only saw her 10 minutes after his graduation party. S13 hadn't seen her for over a month.

- Kids only see her when I am traveling for business. Otherwise, she would probably not see them at all. And when they go to her place, she goes out all day and shows no interest in them.

- She lies all the time to me, to the kids and to everyone else. When she says she must stay home and study, very often she's not at her place. I have no proof of an affair, but seeing how she's behaving, most probably she is in PA.

- She asked, through texts, to go to mediation twice. The last time was in June. I told her Okay but I needed a couple of months to get ready.

- When I see her, she looks good. She seems happy and confident. She seems to have a clear plan for her future, get a masters within 2 years, get a promotion at her work, and start over in a new relationship.

- As far as I know, she has been responsible financially. She never tried to take more money from me, but I don't know what to expect during mediation/divorce. But I don't know how she is spending and whether she is taking any debts.

- She has changed everything that was shared (her mailing address, removed herself from joint credit cards, etc.) and change all her passwords (social media, accounts, emails, etc.). She never puts anything on any social media and is very secretive about what she does. No one know where she goes, what she does, and who she frequents...


Me:49 XW:41, M:18 years, Kids: S18,S14
BD:JULY 2017, W moved out: DEC 2017
Filed for D: APR 2019, D Final: JULY 2019
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kiro Offline OP
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I guess the main question I have is about mediation. About a month ago, I told W over a short phone conversation that I agreed to mediation but I needed 2 to 3 months to be ready. And I told her that I would let her know when I'm ready.

I consulted a lawyer and his opinion is that it's in my interest financially to go to mediation asap and get her to sign an agreement. Otherwise, I will continue paying some of her bills without an agreement and continue accumulating assets that will end up being split.

Should I contact her and tell her I am ready for mediation? Or should I follow the no-contact rule and wait until she asks for it?

I have been working on detachment and I am ready and at peace to move forward with or without her. But I still believe that Reconciliation would be better for everyone.


Me:49 XW:41, M:18 years, Kids: S18,S14
BD:JULY 2017, W moved out: DEC 2017
Filed for D: APR 2019, D Final: JULY 2019
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job Offline
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Welcome to MLC Land! I'm sorry you are here, but you will find that we have a lot of wise posters who are walking the same path that you are. Some are way ahead and others are just beginning...but it doesn't matter...we are all here to help one another. I have posted Cadet's Welcome Posting below for you. Read the homework and hopefully it will help you come up with additional questions, etc.


Welcome to this board.

The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy book by MWD,
Divorce Busting is also an excellent book.
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.

It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support)

I have read a good deal of books on the subject and can give you some suggestions when you are ready.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

I will give you a bunch of homework assignments to read.

This POST is under reconstruction and we will be working on this as time goes by, this is the most current version.

I would start with the going dark link.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post50956

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2537289#Post2537289

Resources thread(last post only)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2592296#Post2592296

Things you should know as the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2701017#Post2701017

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Doormat Tactics
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1942444#Post1942444

Standing vs leaving
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1966340&page=1

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

Musings from AmyC
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2253741#Post2253741

MLC Signs
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2177869#Post2177869

The Final Stages Withdrawal to Acceptance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2074403&page=1

WAS showing you positive signs? WAIT - READ THIS!
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2772942#Post2772942

Now you have all the tools to read. Let us know how your doing and if you have any questions.

I suggest that you read the entire thread in the resources.
You can also pick out some people and read their whole story.

Depression is the key to the whole thing and it is always present!

Believe none of what he/she says and 50% of what he/she does.

I would not ask him/her anything unless you can have no expectations.
Sometimes asking them questions will be thought of as pressure.
You do not want to do anything that can be thought of by your H/W as controlling or pressure.

Lets not worry about him/her. Lets work on you!
Start your homework assignments.
Something to DO while you are on moderation.
GAL.
Eat, sleep, exercise and take a deep breath.
In general take care of your self first.

Detach the single most important thing to DO.

Your H/W has given you a gift
THE GIFT OF TIME
use it wisely

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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kiro Offline OP
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Thanks Job. I already read many of these articles, but I will definitely go through them again smile

This Midlife Crisis section is new to me. For the past 2 days, I have been reading many threads in here. The common thing compared to where I was before in the Newcomers section is the length of the stories. In Newcomers, most people had their BD less than a year ago.

Reading your stories makes me see things in a totally different perspective. It is no surprise to me that MLC can take many years, but it is different when I read real stories of LBSs living this hell.

I see clearer why I need to detach and GAL.

It also helps me understand better that my previous life is over forever. W will never snap out of this and return. My kids will never again live the family life we had. If W was ever to come back, it will be a lengthy, slow and painful process. And if it ever happens, the kids will be grown ups by then. So better for me to start taking the GAL for me and the kids really seriously and to start planning a future without W.


Me:49 XW:41, M:18 years, Kids: S18,S14
BD:JULY 2017, W moved out: DEC 2017
Filed for D: APR 2019, D Final: JULY 2019
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Kiro

Your w is in crisis

What else explains a mother who leaves her children

It was eye opening when I moved over to MLC too

Would not wish this on anyone

But certainly you are here amongst understanding people

It is hard for many IRL to understand

Because it is so unbelievable

It can be lonely and tiring

And you are doing the right thing

To take care of yourself and your children

And love your w from a distance


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
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Kiro welcome to the MLC forum.

I too feel that your W is in crisis. And as Gordie said many IRL will not and do not understand this. I was one of them until I became an LBS, I had no idea this kind of stuff even happened.

You seem to have a nice clear picture of what happened and are well grounded. Good for you.

To your questions:

Originally Posted by kiro
I consulted a lawyer and his opinion is that it's in my interest financially to go to mediation asap and get her to sign an agreement. Otherwise, I will continue paying some of her bills without an agreement and continue accumulating assets that will end up being split.

Should I contact her and tell her I am ready for mediation? Or should I follow the no-contact rule and wait until she asks for it?

I have been working on detachment and I am ready and at peace to move forward with or without her. But I still believe that Reconciliation would be better for everyone.

I am glad you are working on detachment and have found some peace.

As you have read MLC takes a long time to resolve. It also may never resolve. So we focus on and protect ourselves and kids, GAL, detach, and let go.

The no-contact is of course to give you time and space to heal and limit further damage from all this. Your W is also mostly NC with you. A lot of the time doing nothing towards D is recommended, letting the MLCer do the work for the D. Currently your NC situation is accomplishing that.

That approach does not afford protection and is risky, as your L has cautioned. An unfortunate reality of MLC is the protecting you and your kids. Most MLCer (from what I have read since mine spent nothing and took nothing) go crazy with spending, racking up bills with no care or thought on how to pay for them. You need financial protection, you have kids to raise and a W who is not helping.

It is best to put emotions on hold and deal with this as if it was a business partnership that went south. That doesn’t mean you need to get D. There may be other options where you live. For example my W and I are financially separated, all assests are figured out, and custody is finalized, but we are still legally married - divorce right now is literally just a piece of paper, and sadly so is our marriage.

I also believe that reconciliation is better for everyone. Remember none of this precludes a future reconciliation.

A other item to note is that you have been at this for a while, and your W being moved out since Christmas. Has she racked up a lot of bills? Do you think she might? Has she been really pushing for a D? Has it dropped off? Do you think it may start up again?

Your L has given you his advice for your best financial interests. Her coming out of this is a long way off, and a lot can and will happen between now and then.

My advice is to protect yourself and your kids (maybe you are protected enough currently), especially if you can just separate and not D. If your W wants out, she will get out - you do not need to help it along, it can be her idea, just allow things to go smooth. Trying to stop her and hold up the process may just get her angry and you may end up with a battle on your hands.

That’s my view. My W wanted out and she separated in two months after BD. This whole thing hurts like crazy, and I found some comfort when I knew me and my kids had a home, food, and security. Up until then I was facing a very difficult financial picture and one full of risk.

Hope this helps.


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Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
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So sorry to read your tale. You sound like a wonderful person. She sounds definitely in MLC. I just wanted to say that divorce is not the end. she might threaten it and never follow through, or she might follow through and still turn around in a couple of years. It's all up to you to keep your heart light on in the dark or not, no matter what she does. She is not herself now but if she had such a strong faith, God is going to keep calling to her, she will have no rest. I have never initiated anything about D and resist it when my H has brought it up, and so far he has never followed through; but I am firmly committed to standing so I know many here will say otherwise.

Also I would encourage you to strap yourself in for the long ride. You seem to be rushing things, detaching after a few months, or rather thinking you are done with that process, thinking that what she says is what she is going to say next month or next year. She might, but she might also cycle through many different and totally opposite ideas. You don't have to cycle through them with her, or respond to them, but read Gordie's threads about how to just listen.

Her abandonment of her kids is totally unnatural and a hallmark of MLC. My H did this too, and it continues to blow my mind five years in. He was such a great caring loving dad before BD. But the benefit of recognizing this is you can be sure it's not about you, if it was just about you, she would want her kids by her side as much as possible and she would protect them from pain as much as possible Hugs to you you are doing great.

Last edited by Gerda; 07/21/18 05:50 AM.

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Wait for the Lord with courage.
Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
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Originally Posted by DnJ
I too feel that your W is in crisis. And as Gordie said many IRL will not and do not understand this. I was one of them until I became an LBS, I had no idea this kind of stuff even happened.


Thanks DnJ and Gordie. By the way, what is IRL? I don't know this abbreviation.

Originally Posted by DnJ
Has she racked up a lot of bills? Do you think she might? Has she been really pushing for a D? Has it dropped off? Do you think it may start up again?


She hasn't asked for any money since she left. She had some of her own savings, some of which earned through her work and some that I had put in her account. I am still paying for her car, her car insurance, and a few small bills. But what I am paying to her now is less than half of the spousal support she could get in a D court given my income and her income (confirmed by my L).

She hasn't pushed hard for a D really other than asking to go to mediation twice. Both times were through texts after I had contacted her asking her to be a more responsible mother.

Originally Posted by DnJ
Your L has given you his advice for your best financial interests. Her coming out of this is a long way off, and a lot can and will happen between now and then.

My advice is to protect yourself and your kids (maybe you are protected enough currently), especially if you can just separate and not D. If your W wants out, she will get out - you do not need to help it along, it can be her idea, just allow things to go smooth. Trying to stop her and hold up the process may just get her angry and you may end up with a battle on your hands.


This is good advice. Thanks DnJ. The L was talking very theoretically. But in reality, the financial loss between getting an agreement now or getting it later is not that big. I will wait a few more months and see if she brings it up again. I like your idea of getting a legal separation signed.


Me:49 XW:41, M:18 years, Kids: S18,S14
BD:JULY 2017, W moved out: DEC 2017
Filed for D: APR 2019, D Final: JULY 2019
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Thank you Gerda for your nice words

I always pray for her. I hope that she will find her faith again.

Many people on this forum tell me that I am rushing things, so I guess it is true. I will just sit and wait.

Yes, I know it will be a long ride after reading everyone's stories. I have started reading Gordie's threads and I am learning from all of you. Patience...

Everything shows me that it's mostly about her. She hasn't only left me. She abandoned her kids, her religion, her friends, her values, her life, her friends, her family, and the list goes on and on...


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I believe IRL means in real life. Is the car in her name? If not, this is something that you need to look into changing, i.e., just as the insurance if it is in both names. The reason I am concerned is that she could go out there and have an accident the other party could come in and sue. Nothing says you have to stop paying these things, but it's advisable to make sure your name isn't tied to as many of the old joint accounts as possible when they on the streets.

Eventually, she will run out of funds and she'll be looking to you for funds. Are you keeping tabs on your bank accounts and credit card accounts? If not, you should be. Also, do a credit history report. You don't know what other credit cards she has. We always advise our newbies to protect yourself as much as possible in the financial arena. These crisis people will spend like it is water running through their hands.

Keep the focus on you and your children. Did deeper for patience and know that time is very much on your side.


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The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Job, good points. The car is in her name but the insurance has both our names. I'll call and remove my name.

My L told me that as long as we are married, we are both liable for any debt even if it's in one person's name. I think that a separation agreement is the only real protection for me if she starts accumulating debts. Great point!

I would like to stop paying her bills right away and I'd like to remove her as the beneficiary from my life insurance and from my will, but the L did make a good point though.

I asked him if I should stop paying for her car, insurance, other small bills. And if I should cancel the joint account. He thought that doing that would infuriate her and make her less cooperative during mediation negotiation, which could play against me. This was another reason he recommended getting a signed agreement as soon as possible.


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I want to share something that I have never shared to anyone before because I don't know how others will react to this.

As you may know, I have a lot of faith in God. During the past year, I have prayed a lot asking for His guidance and help.

And on 2 occasions, I was pretty sure that God talked to me and inspired me that my W will come back. They were both strong experiences that are difficult to describe. I haven't had too many of these during my life, but the few times I have, they turned out to be true.

I am not sure what to make of this and of course, after experiencing it, I was immediately faced with reality which is quite different. So I started to doubt whether I am just imagining things. Anyway, food for thought...


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Tomorrow will be the 1st anniversary for BD. And 1 week later, our 18th marriage anniversary.

I have invented a new term: HAL to complement GAL. Have A Life (HAL) is my conscious realization that I already have a life. GAL is good, but I've been trying too hard to do new things instead of enjoying what I already have.

Today, I prepared a nice breakfast and set up the table so that we can all eat together like we used to do before. It was really nice to sit down with the boys and have a nice meal together on a Sunday morning.

I discussed with the boys our vacation plan for this summer. Due to our situation, we haven't yet planned anything, but we decided to go somewhere for 1 week. I'll start researching any last minute deals.

Yesterday, I went for a bike ride and really enjoyed it. I've only taken my bike out once this summer. I'll try to do this more often especially that I live in a beautiful area surrounded by amazing scenery (woods, rivers, ...).

On Friday night, I went to "Antman 2" movie with my S17. It's a really funny movie. We really enjoyed it.

And I started reading again, something I haven't done for quite some time. It is really nice to be able to focus on something other than W's MLC.

I want to start playing piano too, but for some reason I still find it difficult to start. But once I start, I know I'll enjoy it...

I also read some of AmyC's posts yesterday. It was an eye opener to understand what MLCers go through. I really recommend it to anyone. Too bad that her old threads have been deleted from the archives.


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Yes, you have a life. I'm glad to see that you are starting to do some of the things that you use to do. It will get easier in time. When you go away for a week, go somewhere you and the kids have not been before. This is the time to make new memories.

Take care and try to enjoy each day as it comes.


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IRL - In Real Life

I thought that was on the abbreviation list / post but it is not. I have no idea where I picked it up, maybe my kids texts, or a different post, I don’t know. smile I used to never used to use abbreviations, always liked full words. Joined here and picked up the lingo.

I am glad to see you understand your financial position currently and the effects of a possible agreement now or later. I believe your current position of waiting is a good one, see what she does in the next while. Just make sure you know you options, which I think you are well aware of.

I have not started to play the Piano again either. I have tried a few times but just too much. Music gets right in to a person and talks directly to your emotions. Still stirs too much up for me.

Originally Posted by kiro
Everything shows me that it's mostly about her. She hasn't only left me. She abandoned her kids, her religion, her friends, her values, her life, her friends, her family, and the list goes on and on...


They abandon so much in their search for happiness.

Or more accurately - They abandon so much in an attempt to rid themselves of unhappiness.

You are doing really good Kiro.

Going on vacation with your boys, that it a top notch idea.


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Be better, not bitter.
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Job, thanks for the encouragement.

DnJ, good point about the piano. I think this is the reason for me as well. Thanks for the nice words.

This morning, I had a few thoughts about the psychology of a MLCer and most definitely my W:

- My W has always been a poor communicator, especially about her feelings. She always pushed any negative feelings deep down and avoided to deal with them. I see this in many stories about WAS/MLCers whether Ws or Hs.

- I suspect she had bad experiences and a lot of emotional wounds as a child and then as a teenager. And then again when she lost her mother in 2006. And all the small stuff during our 17 years of marriage. She kept pushing it all down and building up a huge mountain of unnecessary internal resentment. I often warned her but she never listened.

- I think it all came back to haunt her and she couldn't handle it, and so decided that it was all due to the wrong life she had chosen for the past 18 years and she projected most of it on me blaming me of abusing, belittling, and trying to control her. (That was never my intention and not how I viewed our marriage. I always wanted the best for her, but I wasn't understanding of her struggles because she never talked about them, and I could have definitely been kinder to her and a better listener. But her perception of me is still exaggerated, skewed and distorted. )

- And due to her age starting her 40s, she panicked and thought that this was her last chance to restart it all over and find happiness.

- IMO, the main problem now is that she is still doing the same thing presently. She is pushing deep down her feelings and all her past wounds (including those built up during the marriage), thinking that someone can easily get completely out of her skin and become a totally new person. In near half a century of my life, I've never seen that happen with anyone. This is exactly why she is in this crisis in the first place, always trying to deny her pains.

- And the mistakes she is doing by creating more damage in her life is just adding to the pile of things that one day she will need to deal with. I am worried for her, and really wish her all the best. It will be a lot to deal with when she starts waking up from her current fog.


Here is the last thing that she wrote on one of her social media accounts before going dark completely:

"Give the ones you love wings to fly, roots to come back, and reasons to stay." (Quote from Dalai Lama)

She wrote that about a month after BD, but during the same time that she was telling me that she wants back in the marriage and acting is if everything was normal again.


Anyway, I will now take a break from thinking for a week. I'll do my best to stay busy.


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Wow, that quote! Hold on to that, it's a message from beyond the mountain to you! I have a few of those in cards H wrote me from before BD. They are a lifeline.


I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living.
Wait for the Lord with courage.
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Hi everyone,

I can use some advice on my situation.

First update on GAL:

I have organized a group activity for this week end to go out with friends to do an outdoor activity and then to go for a group dinner. We will 30 people, adults and kids. We organize this on a Whatsapp group that, unfortunately, my W is on. She never writes anything, but she clearly stays there to find out what's going on.

I also booked a trip in 1 week to take my kids to Boston for 5 days.

Update on W:

Surprisingly, she took the kids since Wednesday and they'll stay with her till tomorrow. I've been calling the kids. They're happy. She took them to the movies and then went to a restaurant with my S17. My other S13 spends most of his days with his friends.

Today, my S13 called me because he forgot his soccer shoes home and had a soccer practice. W was going to bring him home to get the shoes. I told him to ask W to return to me the house keys and the garage door opener since she didn't live here anymore since December. She refused.

She was waiting in her car (that I pay). I went out, said hi then asked her to return me the keys and the garage opener. Here is how the conversation went:

W "No" then angrily "Half of this house is mine. I told you I want a divorce and you've been putting it off. I will call my lawyer... blah blah blah"

Me "Really?"

W "Yes"

Me "You know that I can easily disconnect your garage opener and change the key lock, right? And by the way, I never put off the divorce or the mediation"

W with an angry and upset tone "Well, you said you needed 2 or 3 months"

Me walking away from her "You know what? We'll talk about this another time when you'll calm down"

W almost shouting "But I am calm"

Then, while she was still in her car, I opened the garage and started disconnecting the garage door. I still haven't changed the door lock though.

The reason I asked her to return these is because I don't like when she comes in the house while I am away. I don't know what she does. I know she did it a few times while I was not home because I noticed that certain things were missing. . And sometimes, when she has the kids, she brings them any time without telling me and they walk in through the garage while I am not expecting them.

Should I change the lock to the door?

Should I go to mediation and get it over with?

Should I close the joint account that she uses only to pay the kids cellphones? Should I stop paying her car and her insurance and a few other small bills?

Or should I do nothing?


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kiro Offline OP
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Maybe it is time to take an appointment with a mediator?

Anyway, it will take time and many sessions before reaching some sort of agreement.

Am I afraid? Yes a little bit because I don't know what to expect. Financial ruin. Kids custody... I guess I should just man-up and get it over with.


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You need to consult with an attorney to find out what your rights are and to get an idea of what your financial picture will likely be in a divorce.

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I already consulted a lawyer and I have an idea. He advised to go to mediation as soon as possible. Mediation is the first step to file for divorce.


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Kiro - my goodness that stirred up the hornets nest.

It’s ok, we’ve all been there. There is lots of stress, and it is hard not to react. Get up and dust yourself off. Don’t worry about W, let her cool off. And try to leave the hornets nest alone.

A few things. Hope you’re up for it.

Originally Posted by kiro
Today, my S13 called me because he forgot his soccer shoes home and had a soccer practice. W was going to bring him home to get the shoes. I told him to ask W to return to me the house keys and the garage door opener since she didn't live here anymore since December. She refused.

When you need to communicate to W do it directly, do not go through the kids. They don’t want to be in the middle and she wont be any more receptive to your request or any less p!ssed off (probably more) just because it comes from the kids.

A question or demand from W coming to me through one of our kids might just taint this calm demeanour of mine. It certainly would make me disinclined to acquiesce to her request.


Originally Posted by kiro
This is good advice. Thanks DnJ. The L was talking very theoretically. But in reality, the financial loss between getting an agreement now or getting it later is not that big. I will wait a few more months and see if she brings it up again. I like your idea of getting a legal separation signed.

Why the change in your plan? Did something happen?

Remember you have the gift of time, and doing nothing is doing something. Be patient.

I am guessing that W has been pushing your buttons and you reacted. It was your one year anniversary of BD a week ago, that may have stirred up some emotions for you and maybe W too. Might explain some of her outburst or your’s.

Last week you were calm. This week not so much. Next week you’re in Boston with your kids - yippee! The week after who knows what will happen.

You made some very good posts and points to Gordie and Gerda about being patient. This is a long trek, no need to run.


Originally Posted by kiro
Am I afraid? Yes a little bit because I don't know what to expect. Financial ruin. Kids custody... I guess I should just man-up and get it over with.

Originally Posted by kml
You need to consult with an attorney to find out what your rights are and to get an idea of what your financial picture will likely be in a divorce.

I agree with kml, and go ever further. You need more than an idea what your financial picture will likely be, you need to know. Find out the worst case, the probable case, and ask those hard questions. Find out if you can legally change the lock, close accounts, and so on.

You do not have to act on any of it. Knowledge is power. You will have answers. You will have the gift of time. You will have the ability to decide on a thought out course of action.

This is one of the biggest, maybe the biggest, decision in your life. If needed see another L and get another opinion.

I total get that you are afraid.

Kiro, listen to me - you are doing good. You are no where close to as messed up and scared as I was. You will make it through this. You will be much better.

So my advice, my answer to your questions.

Should I change the lock to the door?
Should I go to mediation and get it over with?
Should I close the joint account that she uses only to pay the kids cellphones?
Should I stop paying her car and her insurance and a few other small bills?

Or should I do nothing?

You only gave yourself two options. The first way or nothing.

Remove “or” from question 5. You now have listed five different choices. You can take anywhere from none of them to all of them, even at the same time. You can even choose something different, you are not limited now.

That little word “or” restricts your freedom of choice. It hampers finding other ideas. It gives the illusion of an all or nothing situation.

Of those five choices - at the moment I would choose something else.

You are one year into this. Be patient and give it time. There has been no reason or action for you to rush into mediation. You had a plan last week. Keep calm, let her do the heavy lifting if she wants, and see what happens over the next few months. Ok this is kind of like the doing nothing approach.

Anyhow, while you’re doing that. Focus on you and kids, gal, talk to L, work on detachment, and enjoy your trip to Boston.

Whew, doing nothing is a lot of work.

Hang in there, you’re doing fine.


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I know you are afraid. You don't have to make decisions today. Take a step back and breathe. The only thing you need to do is make sure your kids are okay.

DnJ has given you plenty to think about. If you aren't sure what to do....then do nothing. Don't make decisions when you are upset or afraid. We tend to regret those decisions later.

As for the locks, did you ask your lawyer if you could change the locks? In my area, you can't change the locks until your spouse has draft separation papers in hand. I was advised that my xh had to have all of his personal belongings out of the house before I could change the locks, even though he had moved out 3 months earlier and had 5 mailing addresses. Yep, that's right, 5 mailing address. Check to make sure you can do this. I would hate to see you have to give her a key to the new locks.

Take your time when it comes to making decisions about those items you've listed. Monitor your credit report to ensure nothing new has been added that you aren't aware of.

Last but not least....breathe!


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Thx DnJ and Job

I texted her yesterday that I was ready for mediation and agreed that she takes an appointment in mid August.

I will consult a lawyer again to get another opinion and be ready.

I wont change the door locks yet. It is just annoying knowing she can walk in any time and go through my stuff while I am away. But it is not life threatening. I can live with that. I will also ask the L anyway.

I figured that it is better to go to the mediation session and know what she has in mind, and also to protect myself. She probably thinks I am trying to screw her financially. I am not. She will end up taking most of the savings especially if I buy out her share of the house.

And I also didnt want her to think I was trying to manipulate her into coming back. She clearly asked 3 times for divorce through mediation. I told her I needed a couple of months, so it is only fair to agree and let her take the appointment. Marriage is not a prison. If she wants out, I wont stop her.

I will do my best to always remain calm and polite during the sessions. I see it as a business negotiation session. I want a win win result while maintaining a good long term relationship, just like I would do with any of my clients or partners at work. I will prepare accordingly.

I am much calmer and at peace today. I finally played some piano this morning after several months. And planning to spend the rest of the day out.

But I will continue DBing and wont lose hope yet, while having zero expectation. I want to be fair and patient at the same time.


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And you are right DnJ. I will stop asking the kids to communicate on my behalf, not for her, but for the kids because they dont like being the middlemen.

Why did I change from my position a few weeks ago? I dont think I changed my position that much. I still think legal separation is better than D but I dont if it exists here. I will ask L.

But I realized that I was being unfair to her if this is what she wants. I am still holding to my values and prefer R over D, but one of my values is also Justice and fairness.

And I also gave her my word that I would let her know when I was ready within 2 or 3 months.

Also, I realized that ignoring her request to go to mediation is me trying to control her, which is one of tge things she blamed me with after BD. So agreeing is part of my 180 and trying to be a better person.

Lastly, the more I ignored her request, the more she became upset and this could hurt me even further during mediation because I need her cooperation.


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Those are good choices Kiro.


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Thanks DnJ

The first mediation appointment has been scheduled for Aug 13.

Small text exchange this week-end with W about certain accounts and bills. She removed my name from 1 more shared account. I texted her that it's time that I stopped paying her car, insurance, and gym. She already cancelled her gym, and told me she will be returning her car. She wants this to be part of the settlement with mediation L.

I felt a little sad after that exchange and after she confirmed the appointment. But then I took a deep breath, got myself up and dusted off the dust.

Then, I decided to enjoy my week-end. I had organized a trip with a large group of friends. We spend the entire Sunday outside doing activities and we all had a blast. Then, we ended the evening in a nice restaurant and didn't come back home until 10pm. The kids and everyone really enjoyed it.

I felt good because I was the one who organised it all and it was a real success. As I said before, W doesn't want to remove herself from the Whatsapp group where we organize all these activities and share the photos. I am sure she has been following all our moves closely.

Everyone kept thanking me for the great time we all spent. We're now starting to plan more group activities for the rest of the summer.

Today, I also started cleaning up my paperwork and all my accounts. I changed all my passwords and started removing W from my medical insurance, life insurance, etc. I also closed our joint bank account.

Other than the house and the assets that have not yet been split, we don't have many shared things anymore except the kids and the old memories.

Thinking about it makes me feel sad again, but this is where we are. I have to accept it.

But it struck me again how odd all of this has been. This woman is someone I don't recognize. She is not the person I married and not the person I have known for over 17 years. She is not the person who was living me a year ago.

After everything we shared, all the good times together, all the intimate moments, all the love, the trust, the long conversations, and the family outings, after all of this, W treats me as someone she doesn't know, and as an enemy.

Until we went No-Contact 5 months ago, we were in very good terms (nice conversations, sharing info about everything, laughing, etc.) and then nothing happened other than stopping all contact. There was no fight and nothing that would have caused the bad feelings.

So I am astonished that our next conversations will have to be in front of a lawyer as we were total strangers.

Anyway, I wanted to vent out.

I still have to focus on my work and kids this week. Then, next week, we're off to Boston for 1-week vacation.


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I am glad your weekend trip was a success, with you and the kids really enjoying it. I am sure the trip to Boston is being eagerly anticipated by everyone.

Good for you - getting up, dusting yourself off, and accepting where you are. Yes it feels sad, no doubt about that. Please remember feelings are fleeting and not permanent, the sadness will lessen.

Oh my, cleaning up the paperwork, closing accounts, passwords, insurance, and all that stuff. There is a lot to do. I actually got the last two kids’ joint accounts with me and W closed just yesterday. The hold up was changing the kid’s account information with the government. With all that paperwork, there is so many other items that come up. You are pretty organized guy, you’ll keep it on track and make short work of it.

Your W is behaving like a different person right now. She needs to do this. She is driven to do this. It is not about you.

Your venting is clear and right on point.

Originally Posted by kiro
Other than the house and the assets that have not yet been split, we don't have many shared things anymore except the kids and the old memories.

Shared things - kids and memories. Giving her time to remember the memories locked away in her mind is really is the essence of standing. The memories of a long term relationship is a powerful pull - lot of hope in that idea.

For the little while thing may get a bit rough. Stay strong Kiro. Stay focused. You are doing very well.


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Thanks again DnJ.

I've closed all the shared accounts except the registered accounts like the kids' accounts. Those ones will need some work and I'll have to wait until we reach an agreement with the L.

I was just reading an article by Hearts Blessing about divorce. She says

"This process of uncoupling that your (spouse) says (s)he wants... must be gone through in full to teach both of you major lessons about different aspects of this divorce process that your (spouse) initiated."

I believe so too. This is something that must be gone through fully. I must learn to deal with my fear of loss. I already learned a lot when I had to deal with rejection and loss exactly a year ago after BD. This is phase 2 of this learning process. It is the time to reinforce what I learned and become even stronger emotionally.

And also the time to strengthen my faith in God.

Originally Posted by DnJ
Giving her time to remember the memories locked away in her mind is really is the essence of standing. The memories of a long term relationship is a powerful pull - lot of hope in that idea.


I will always remember what Irish wrote on one of his posts, about his daughter saying that their family life remained good after his W left and that it's actually his W that missed out on a lot of fun.

Honestly, I am starting to feel the same. The kids and I are still a solid family. We continue moving forward. We kept our family, our friends, and our life. And we are still building more happy memories for the future. The only difference is that she is missing out.

When we went out this week-end, everyone seemed so happy. I was the only single parent among 6 or 7 families. It didn't affect me too much. She will see all the photos on Whatsapp, and I can't imagine that she won't feel the loss of something valuable she had.


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Today's thought about MLC and LBS:

IMO, the main reason MLCers go into MLC is because they fear aging and feel they will miss out on life. They panic and lose track of reality. Then they go astray and start acting immaturely destroying their lives and themselves in the process.

Nothing new, right? I bet everyone agrees more or less...

But I am also noticing in real life (not so much on this forum) that many LBSs react to the pains of rejection and loss by acting very immaturely, and they often fall in the very similar trap as their MLC spouse. Their main justification is that life is too short and that we only live once.

So they start engaging in selfish physical relationships without any intention of long term commitment. IMO, they harm themselves by doing this.

This is another reason to follow the wisdom found on this forum. Standing and not doing anything for some time is the best solution, not only for a possible reconciliation but to avoid falling in our own form of MLC.

Food for thought... smile


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Hi Kiro, i hope it's ok to post on your thread. I havent read all your posts but i have seen a few. You posted about the WAS missing out and feeling the los when they see pictures online,, another view could be that they see the kids happy and this gives them comfort and reinforces that they were correct to leave because look , the family are fine without me.

My point is we have no idea what they are thinking so best not to try. Standing is your choice and I wish you the best but i would also echo something you posted about how you only get one life and you need to enjoy it as best you can. This is very very true.

Just my thoughts and again I hope it's ok to post.

Take care, Rd

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Thanks rd500. Please post as much as you want on my thread. Not much happens in my Sitch for extended periods of time as we are in total no-contact W and I. So I just post general thoughts because I have no update to share just to keep the discussion going smile

I may have said something about W maybe feeling the loss when she sees the pictures, but to be honest I didn't really give it much thought as I don't really care what she thinks. It was nothing more than a thought that crossed my mind for a moment.

I guess you may be right. Who knows what she thinks? Her behavior during the 6 or 7 months after BD makes me think that she could have opposite thoughts in her head at the exact same time. She seemed to be very conflicted within herself.

I will add this however: I find many contradictions in the LBS mentality that is often preached on this forum and other similar sites. Maybe, I'll dedicate one of my future posts on all the contradictions I found.

We suggest to stand and do nothing about the sitch (and focus on ourselves and GAL). And we consciously use the term "moving forward" instead of "moving on". So basically, we're saying not to make an immediate decision to end the marriage and let the MLCer/WAS file for divorce if they want.

IMO, this is a clear proof that we are making a rational judgment about what MLC is and how MLCers behave in the short and long term. We are saying that many (not all) MLCers will choose to come back after they go through certain stages of MLC. And for that reason, we are choosing to stand.

Yet at the same time (this where there is a contradiction), we say that we shouldn't try to understand what the MLCer is thinking.

But the whole standing approach is based on a possible reconciliation.
(I know many will argue that it's not about reconciliation, but we all know it's not true. If we only wanted to heal and move on, none of us will be writing and reading posts on this forum, which is by the way called "divorce busting" for a reason. So let's not kid ourselves. I am saying this with all respect to anyone who doesn't agree with me smile )

So if we are honest with ourselves that reconciliation is something that we prefer over divorce, then we also have to be honest that we will always be curious about the MLCer's progress and will be looking for clues. I am not saying that we have to be emotionally attached to their behaviors. I am just saying that it is normal that we will often question what's going on in their heads.


Originally Posted by rd500
Standing is your choice and I wish you the best but i would also echo something you posted about how you only get one life and you need to enjoy it as best you can. This is very very true.


Personally, I believe in God. And I believe in the afterlife. So although we have one life in this form, I believe that we have another eternal life. I had to say this because maybe it makes all the difference and it adds a totally different perspective.

Because of my faith mostly, I am not worried about missing out. Life has a very clear meaning to me. It's not all about pleasures. We need to enjoy it and make the best out of it, but there is also a place for being patient and not necessarily having everything we want or we think we want.

Aging doesn't scare me. I am good in my skin and I am grateful for what I have. Living happily and enjoying life doesn't mean going out every night, dating right away, or having fun. It only means being content with what we have, being good in our own body, and living according to our core beliefs and values.


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Hi, i would agree with almost all you have posted above. While I'm not religious i do believe in karma ( my higher power) and like most have core values that would concur with most religions and their basic ( peaceful ) teachings.

On the standing part and seeing conflict in the WAS , i would disagree but only to the point of what you see and what you perceive from that. My W left myself and the kids 4 years ago and I posted on here about my perception of her conflict and for the first two years her actual words because we still communicated. She often showed regret and to this day messages me about her loss and unhappy life but i believe we have zero real understanding of the WAS because our perceptions are based on who we thought WAS to be and not who they are now.

My thoughts / advice to a LBS are let go of perceptions and deal with realities, be the lighthouse and follow this sites advice because it will save you first and foremost and hopefully your M. Be the best you and only do things from your heart and not to influence WAS in any direction as they must go through this in their time frame. I refuse to communicate with W unless ita by email and only then about the kids. Two weeks ago she asked for a.loan which i gave and i can honestly say it was given with zero expection of her reaction.

I started dating after 2 years when i knew I was finished with the M. We were together over 25 years and married ( upto BD) 20 years. It was not easy to let go but life is now good again. My advice on living your life means just that. If standing is for you then all power to you but this life ( as most religions will advise) is for living to its fullest. That is easily done while standing for your M.

Again , these are just my thoughts and opinions after going through my stuff.

Take care , Rd

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rd500, thank you again for posting your thoughts here. I need any support and advice that I can get. Sometimes, I may give the impression that I know exactly what I am talking about, but I don't smile

You bring very good points. And it actually makes a lot of sense.

Originally Posted by rd500
i believe we have zero real understanding of the WAS because our perceptions are based on who we thought WAS to be and not who they are now.


Very good point. You're right. I still struggle with this idea, not only because I can't understand how someone can change so drastically in a short period of time, but also because I can't believe how any normal human being can behave in such a childish way.

What I am trying to say is that when I am judging my W or trying to understand what she is thinking, I am not only doing it based on how she was before BD. I also try to imagine how any normal person would think in a similar situation.

But I guess MLCers are unlike any other person. They are as unpredictable as it can get.


Originally Posted by rd500
My thoughts / advice to a LBS are let go of perceptions and deal with realities, be the lighthouse and follow this sites advice because it will save you first and foremost and hopefully your M. Be the best you and only do things from your heart and not to influence WAS in any direction as they must go through this in their time frame. I refuse to communicate with W unless its by email and only then about the kids. Two weeks ago she asked for a loan which i gave and i can honestly say it was given with zero expectation of her reaction.

I started dating after 2 years when i knew I was finished with the M. We were together over 25 years and married (up to BD) 20 years. It was not easy to let go but life is now good again. My advice on living your life means just that. If standing is for you then all power to you but this life ( as most religions will advise) is for living to its fullest. That is easily done while standing for your M.


Thanks for sharing this. So do you think she is going through a crisis or do you think she just changed? Or you don't know and don't care? Just curious wink

Can I ask why you refuse to communicate except by email?

Since you are with someone else now, does this mean that you are totally done forever with your W?

Sorry for asking so many questions.

For me, my W left about 8 months ago. Up to last Nov, we were still living together and still intimate. So although BD was more than a year ago, this is still somewhat fresh for me.

I don't think I am ready yet for another relationship, but I don't disregard the idea. All I was trying to say in my previous message was that I am not panicking about getting old and not finding a new partner. It's more important for me now to detach, rebuild myself, become the best that I can be, and continue to take care of my kids.

And I'd rather wait until I am ready to find the right partner and build a strong relationship than jump into quick dating just to feel good about myself. 2 years sounds like the right amount of time to start dating again. I still have at least another year to go smile


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Hi everyone,

I guess I do need real advice right now as I just got a long email from W. Almost the first true communication from her since BD over a year ago.

So yesterday, I was watching a video about the beauty of religion. And I decided to forward it to her but without any comment. This is the first time I do this.

Today, I received a long email from her that I'll try to summarize below:

She mentions the video and then explains that she still believes in God but that faith means surrendering to the flow of life and letting go of everything. And that she had to surrender to God'will and venture into the unknown.

Then she goes on about how she knows that her leaving caused me a lot of suffering, and that she knows that because of the suffering she felt when her mother died. Then she says that she is not going to justify it by how I mistreated her because she is beyond that now.

She then starts talking about being authentic to one's self and how she has always living 2 lives in our marriage, a seemingly perfect life on the outside and a sad one inside. She says she tried giving me another chance but she was being untrue to herself.

And she explains that she is still in the healing process and this is why she blocked me out for the past year. She doesn't want anymore confusion. And that everything fell into place which was a sign of God.

Then a long paragraph about the kids. In summary, if she is in a good place herself, it will inspire them who have to find their own inner calling. And that they will reach out for help if they need her.

And then she hopes that we will continue being friends after the healing process. And she hopes to have a beautiful and peaceful divorce.

That's it! I have no clue what to do with this. Answer? Think about it? Ignore it?


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If I were to answer right now, my response would have probably been something like:

" Thank you for the long and elaborate email. Happy that you finally came out and maybe for the first time in the last 18 years made a real effort to communicate openly how you felt.

Your perspective of life and particularly your life is interesting, but seems too complicated in my opinion.

This inner split you talk about maybe is not really an inner split as much as it is an inner pain and inner issues that you never learned to deal with. The fact that you hid your inner pains doesn't mean that you were split and unauthentic.

I think you never faced the real issues that caused this inner pain and you tried to hide it by ignoring it and trying to show an external happy face. And now, you decided to run away because you can't keep that happy face anymore.

The real issue is not with the happy face, the running, or the double life. The real issues are things you never dealt with inside. It doesn't seem to me that you are dealing with them now either. Or maybe? But it's not about me, the kids, or letting go. It's about dealing with your inner sadness.

Whether you show a happy face or not, whether you stay or you leave, whether you believe in God or not, the question is why did you feel sad inside?

If you think that your problem was related to your life, your marriage, me, the kids, or whatever you had, then you are seeking the answers where you will never find them. Look inside. Seek help if you need. Don't be ashamed of your inner pains and issues. Be open about them. Have faith in God. And have courage.

Good luck"


Something like that but I won't send it. I just needed to write it somewhere to get it out of my system smile


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So I actually decided to reply much shorter reply

"Thanks for sharing your feelings openly. You have not often done that. I hope you realize that you should not be and should have never been ashamed of your feelings."


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Hi Kiro, no problem re the questions, I'm done with the M because I could never trust W again and the pesron i thought she was is gone. I communicate though email because its recorded and it's not instant so thought needs to be put into if. Its not i dont care , it's.more that i dont know that person so while.i have compassion its not my issue. As I said i will lend money but not support. I think there comes a point when as an LBS you know that your werent the real problem and the WAS has to live their reality and accept what that brings. I'm not discounting my part in the M failure but I'm also not owning it as 100% me. For me letting go was the wisest advice i got from this site. It is not easy but if you accept you have absolutely no control.of the situation then you let go or spend forever on the sorry-go-round, wallowing in the victim mentality. I see posters on here for years , still with the poor me attitude while telling everyone how strong they are.. if you look up Sottos posts or Vanillia you will see really strong people who strive to move forward and live their lives to the fullest. Sometimes they struggle but the genuine strength is there clear to.see. never once do you see these really strong people state their strength because they simply don't need to.

As for.your Ws recent post , that's her reality today, is it reality for you ? , it doesn't matter, it's hers and you have no control over her feelings or reality. Do you need to respond , no. Imho she is.looking to justify her choices and wants you to agree., again for her to feel good about her choices. You are hurt , confused and lost, step back , follow DBs advice and live your Life, enjoy your life and be the lighthouse,. This may bring her back but it will most defiantly bring you back to you living your life.

As cadet says you have the gift of time to become the best person , dad , etc that you can possibly be. Use that time and relax back from W and her reality. A very good friend told me after BD that i would be happy again and I honestly.am, i never thought i would post that but its true.

As for dating , that's for the future and you will know when its time. If i could offer my one realisation that changed things for me it was when i realised W had accepted that we were finished. Once i graped that fact it made moving forward the only option.

I would advise not sending anything to your W , not because you 'are try to control/ influence her but because she might / Will perceive it that way and that will not help no matter you think.

Just my thoughts, take care, RD

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Kiro - there is no point in sending that first message for sure. Her foggy mind will not pay attention that long and she just won’t care about it. Imagine a kid getting a letcure.

Her message is full of her explaining her justification, her reasoning.

I have had similar conversations with my W (here are a few):

- I know it hurts now but it will be better later.

- Living authentically, my W blew up five lives. (You should not have to destroy someone else to live authentically).

- She was sad and this was her chance at happiness.


You W ended her message with I hope we will be friends and have a beautiful and peaceful divorce. She is living a reality that the different from normal folk. The is nothing beautiful or peaceful about divorce.

RD500 is correct - everything is for the LBS to heal, restoration of M is a bonus. You are also correct - all LBS here start out wanting / would do anything to save their M.

Focusing on you, detaching, letting go, gal Is all for healing the LBS. Whether an LBS stands or not, they need to do something like this to get back on their feet.

Standing is for the LBS to allow time for the MLC to do what they need to do. For the LBS to do all they can do to save their marriage. To follow their beliefs and vow.

These work really well together at the beginning. We need to heal which takes time, and we want to stand which give us time.

As the LBS gets more and more healed, the question of how long to stand becomes greater and greater.

For myself, how long would I stand? I do not know. I do not see myself as a covenant keeper, standing till the day I die. However I also do not not see myself doing that. I use the double negative because that is accurate. Right now all I see is not changing course. When I do see myself doing <something>, I will change course. And I mean - do see myself doing, not can see myself doing.

Trying to figure out the MLCers mind is dangerous. Be careful it will drive you bonkers (I love Job’s advice).

To be able to rationally think about, or rationalize, your W’s irrational behaviour and thoughts you need to think like her. You’d have to become irrational to rationalize her point of view.

In her reality nothing is wrong. Things do get confused now and then when old memories surface and conflicting emotions occur. The hope is that more and more of that happens and eventually they realize something is wrong. It takes a lot of pain and torment for a MLCer to finally look inside themselves. Not many (willing) considers themselves to be the villain in their own story. Hence the replay behaviour to keep the focus off themselves (internally) - the opposite of what the LBS does.

I am sorry Kiro you asked for specific advice and I got all rambling.

The second message is better. I would not send that either.

Originally Posted by Kiro
Thanks for sharing your feelings openly. You have not often done that. I hope you realize that you should not be and should have never been ashamed of your feelings.

You have not often done that. - Sounds confrontational and argumentative.

I hope you realize that you should... - Do not tell her what to do. And if you do, do not do it patronizingly.

... never be ashamed of your feelings - I am thinking she should be ashamed of what she has done and her feelings. I know she is not. I also believe you should not condone these particular feelings. Validate her feelings, just don’t condone.

So maybe,

Thank you for the letter and sharing your feelings with me.

I am sorry for your suffering when <mother> passed away.

Kiro


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rd500, I don't feel hurt, confused nor lost.

I am living most of my days doing other things and not thinking about my W or M at all. From time to time, I am curious about certain things so I can look it up on the net or I write a post to share what comes to my mind.

But I am happy with my life. I am busy and I am satisfied with who I am. I came a very long way compared to where I was a year ago. I feel almost fully detached from W.

But as new things I have never experienced before arise, I don't always know how to handle them. For example, I have never gone through mediation or divorce before. It's a new experience for me. So I ask and I learn from others.

Same thing about today's letter. This is a first since BD a year ago. I wasn't sure what the best approach would be. So I asked.

There is a big difference between being unsure about the best course of action and being hurt, confused or lost. I have very big responsibilities in my job and I have to make major decisions all the time. Sometimes, when I face a new problem, I am unsure what the best decision is. I seek information and I ask. Then, I usually trust my gut feeling and I make my decision. Am I always right? No, but it doesn't really matter. Life goes on and I move on and I try to learn and do better the next time.

As I said, I am not fully detached but almost there. My W's behavior doesn't affect me emotionally anymore or very little.

But W moved out only 8 months ago, I am still married, we still haven't split any assets, and we'll start the mediation sessions in 1 week. It is normal that a lot of this is on my mind at least part of the time.

"Never once do you see these really strong people state their strength because they simply don't need to." Not sure what you mean by this. I guess your comment could apply to me because I am claiming that I'm not confused and that I am happy, etc. To be honest, you are entitled to your opinion. I don't really care who you think is strong. I don't even care if I am strong with your own definition or not. I am happy for me and I follow my own beliefs.

Am I totally over W/M and am I totally ready to move forward/on? Maybe not, but I am getting there and I feel great about the progress that I have made for the past 6 months.

For you, it's been 4 years. For me, it's been 1. Am I happy 100%? Maybe not, but I am not far from that. I definitely feel much more at peace than the last few years of my marriage. I feel that I am a much better person and I have found myself again.

How much do I want her back? To be honest, it doesn't really matter to me anymore, but many times, I almost force to tell myself that R would still be the best solution.

Do I feel like a victim? Sometimes I do, but most of the time no. Like you, I realize that it takes 2 to make a M work and it takes 2 for it not to work. I have already faced myself and looked at all the things I did wrong. I know my part. But like you say, it's not me 100%. But I don't really feel like a victim. She made a choice. Is it wrong or is it right? It's a complicated question and almost becomes a philosophical one. so I won't even try to answer it.

The important thing is that everyone has free choice. She made her choice. And I am making mine too. I can't control her. And she can't control me. I'm cool with that smile

Last, I am not sure what you mean by living life to its fullest. People are different. Everyone has his own meaning of life. Someone could decide to be a monk and spend his meditating in a monastery and that for him means living life to its fullest. Someone else might need to travel the world to get such a fulfillment. So I don't judge anyone. I let others live their life the way they want.

Peace


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Thanks DnJ

Well, I already sent my version. So I can't take that back smile I don't really care honestly. She will take it the way she will. I have zero expectations either way.

IMO, we shouldn't feel ashamed of our feelings because we don't control them. Feelings come to us even if we don't want to. What we can control are our behaviors and reactions to those feelings. I am not sure she will understand the nuance, but that's really her problem at that point. She used to be a smart person wink

I agree that it is dangerous trying to figure out a MLCer's mind. I sometimes enjoy the exercise though while at the same time, I know that whatever I think doesn't mean a thing because she is totally irrational. I don't base any of my decisions on what she says or what she does.

I like your approach about standing. Same for me. I don't think I'll stand till I die. It's not something that bothers me either way now. The only real difference between Standing and Not Standing is getting involved in a new relationship. Other than that, I am moving forward with my life anyway and letting her go.

When I will feel that I am ready for a new relationship, I will stop Standing and decide it's time for me to find someone else. Or maybe it will happen the other way around. Maybe when I find someone else, I'll decide that I'm done with Standing smile


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Standing vs Stepping Down. The only thing in limbo is a relationship with that “one” person. Everything else goes right along (more or less). Hmmmm. That is a lot easier than all the not not double negatives. smile

I do understand and see your view on feelings being uncontrollable. I also get that you see we can control our behaviours and reactions. I think you mean responses - reactions are, well reactionary in nature and less controlled. At any rate I get what you’re saying.

I do believe feelings are changeable and some what in our control. Feelings lead to thoughts, as well as thoughts leading to feelings. If we are mad and think happier thoughts do we not get less mad?

For sure feelings are real to the person experiencing them and should not be dismissed. I do admit I have had shameful feelings and yes they are real and I am ashamed. So I work to change my behaviour and thoughts so as to not have those unwanted feelings.

In truth I was not going to put in the change about she should feel ashamed. I decided to because your viewpoint is open and honest, and I know you’ll share your reasoning. In this limited medium of conversation that is the only way to get to know someone. I do like reading your views by the way.

There is nothing wrong with you sending your message, and your message was fine. I was just critiquing and offering other ideas. You are the one who has to live them, and I think you are doing a d@mn fine job.

Kiro, we have not “known” each other for long, and even with that I sense good feelings about you from the way you post. Your last post to RD500 was a bit off from your previous ones. It kind of set off my radar.

Is everything ok?


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DnJ

Thanks for your nice words.

Re:response versus reaction, you are correct. English is my 3rd language, so sometimes my words are not very accurate. Thanks for correcting me.

I see what you mean about feelings. I agree.

What I felt with my sentence to W is mostly about her feeling sad inside during our marriage and probably all her life, but hiding it and trying to show a happy face to everyone. She always hid her feelings deep down as if she was ashamed of her feelings.

Re:sendind my message. I like the version you proposed but I had already sent it. The message I sent is not perfect, but it is truthful and represents me. I am not seeking anything from her. I often follow my intuition and my gut feeling and this is what I did.

Re:message to rd500. Sorry if it was off. True. It’s not my usual tone. I have to work on myself a little more to be more careful with my words.


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Wow. Three languages. I only know two. English and poor english. smile

I do understand your sentiment about her hiding her feelings.

Your message is truthful and sincere, it is perfect for you.

Have a great weekend.


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Hi Kiro , firstly please don't change your words because of me , imho you read lots in to my post that wasn't there. My mentioning people who wallow was not about you so apologies if thats how i made it sound. It was perhaps an example of a road not to go down but i obviously didn't make that clear enough. I pointed out Sotto and vanilla as examples of two people on here I admire and whos example i tried to follow. Both posters would not date until they were legally D.

You took , lost , angry etc very personally and again apologies, if some one asked me today how i feel about Ws actions to myself and especially my four children ( who she left) , I'm lost why she did it , im angry for my kids about it and sad for their childhood. However im not sure how you translated that into my judging your whole life..

With the greatest respect i will bow out of your post because my intention was not to trigger you and make you so defensive. I sincerely hope you achieve your goals re your M and life in general but i would not recommend the Monk thing !!

Take care, Rd

Joined: Mar 2018
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kiro Offline OP
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Thanks rd500

I actually think that I will bow out myself, at least for some time.


Me:49 XW:41, M:18 years, Kids: S18,S14
BD:JULY 2017, W moved out: DEC 2017
Filed for D: APR 2019, D Final: JULY 2019
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 412
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kiro Offline OP
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Quick update

First of all, W did respond back to my email by attacking me and repeating the same old story that I was to blame for everything during our marriage. She sent me 2 emails one after the other with the same tone. I didn't reply.

Last week, I went to Boston with the boys. It was a very successful trip. We had a great time. On the week-end, we went go karting with some friends and it was a lot of fun.

On a personal level, I have been doing a lot of self reflection. I went to a meetup appointment over the week-end and we ended playing a very interesting game called "The Transformation Game". It was a very enlightening experience. The message that kept coming back to me (from the game itself, not the other players) was that I needed more adventure and exploration in my life smile

Yesterday, I had my 1st mediation session with STBXW. It was very similar to a business meeting. I was giving all my attention to the mediator and not addressing W directly. We were both relatively calm.

We went over child custody and child support. W said she had already talked with the boys. Apparently, S17 wants to stay with me, but S13 wants shared 50/50 custody. With that setup, I will pay her a small amount of child support because I earn much more than her.

I said I needed to discuss it with the kids, and that although I preferred to get full custody for both kids, I would do what's best for the kids.

I did talk with both kids and they confirmed what W said.

This week, kids will spend 4 to 5 days with their mother. I am noticing a slight change in STBXW's behavior in the past few weeks. She is spending more time with the kids. I don't know if this is a true change or if it is a way to manipulate what she wants from the mediation process.

I think the past few weeks and this 1st mediation session represent a major milestone in my journey. I think I am finally let go of the last few strings and reaching full detachment.


Me:49 XW:41, M:18 years, Kids: S18,S14
BD:JULY 2017, W moved out: DEC 2017
Filed for D: APR 2019, D Final: JULY 2019
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 324
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Probably healthiest to assume it is her gaming the situation.

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