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M: 35, EX-W: 3, S:4
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Originally Posted By: OrangeK
Never ceases to amaze me.

Just got an email, and had a phone call with the director of my daycare.
WIFE hasn't paid the daycare tuition in 3 weeks.
Since June 4th. (we alternate paying each week, and a payment wasnt due for the week of July 4th)
I am up to date with my payments, i just confirmed that with the director. She keeps notes on which payments come from which Check #'s, so she knows who pays when. She also emailed a statement outlining this.
The daycare has shown time and time again that they see that I am the one doing the lions share of the parenting.
At the beginning the director was very short and cvold with me, i think WIFE had smeared me a bit to them, but the truth came out through time, and they have commented to me several times that "you are picking up all the slack, you're doing a great job"
which is very nice to hear.
I told the director, "Thanks for keeping me posted on all of this, please let me know if WIFE takes care of the payments, as if she does not, i will need to find another option for his care on Friday"


Just a bump of my last update on previous thread.


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I am glad it was liberating. But as Steve said, there will be a bit of a down phase as you cycle through it all. Just know that it's okay if it comes. You know everything you need to know.

With the day care situation, as I keep saying, the LBS has to get 100% self-reliant in all aspects. You cannot rely on them to follow through or do what needs to get done. This unfortunately has serious impact on your son and also on you. I am glad that you are using this through a solution-based lens instead of just raging about what W did.

I don't rely on my W for nothing!! She wanted out, she got it. Complete and full.


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Not sure how often you check your email, but it ight not be a good idea to block her number. I understand why you would want to, but I would want to have that line of communication open in case there was a serious emergency. If S was seriously injured and in the hospital you would probably want to know immediately. Maybe just tell her to use email unless it is an extreme emergency...


Me: 38
W:31
Kids: S16(mine from previous R), D10, S9, S4
M: 10 years
T:12 years
BD:Jan 3, 2018
W moved out: Apr 13,2018
Filed for D: Jun 2018
D final: Sep 2019

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In regard to the daycare payments. Make sure you document this. Get something in writing from the daycare saying you have made your payments and she has not made hers. This may be helpful later in court...


Me: 38
W:31
Kids: S16(mine from previous R), D10, S9, S4
M: 10 years
T:12 years
BD:Jan 3, 2018
W moved out: Apr 13,2018
Filed for D: Jun 2018
D final: Sep 2019

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Quote:
I don't rely on my W for nothing!! She wanted out, she got it. Complete and full.


Amen......When I have my kids I do not reach out to her for anything. If I do it is because she forgot to pack something that goes back and forth between the houses.

When she has them though it is a completely different story. During her weeks I usually her from her every other day with a question about something, sending me a picture or making a joke about something. SMH.


Married 14, Together 17
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M: 46, W: 45. D: 10. D: 8 (CUR)
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Originally Posted By: mtb1981
Not sure how often you check your email, but it ight not be a good idea to block her number. I understand why you would want to, but I would want to have that line of communication open in case there was a serious emergency. If S was seriously injured and in the hospital you would probably want to know immediately. Maybe just tell her to use email unless it is an extreme emergency...


I unblock it for a moment a few times a day, so that way any incoming messages still get received. It still gets the blocked messages, and you see them when you unblock. I just dont get alerted immediately and thrown off by any random petty messages from her. Also if it were a true emergency she knows my Office line #, or could have MIL reach out.
I told her to use email last week and she agreed, then proceeded to text me several times.


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Originally Posted By: Maika
I am glad it was liberating. But as Steve said, there will be a bit of a down phase as you cycle through it all. Just know that it's okay if it comes. You know everything you need to know.

With the day care situation, as I keep saying, the LBS has to get 100% self-reliant in all aspects. You cannot rely on them to follow through or do what needs to get done. This unfortunately has serious impact on your son and also on you. I am glad that you are using this through a solution-based lens instead of just raging about what W did.

I don't rely on my W for nothing!! She wanted out, she got it. Complete and full.


I am glad the Daycare keeps me posted, but im not paying her bill for her. If she doesnt pay today, she cannot drop him off on Thursday, so she needs to figure out an option. If i need to I will take the day off on Friday if she hasnt paid yet, i wont mind a day off with S3. smile


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Originally Posted By: mtb1981
In regard to the daycare payments. Make sure you document this. Get something in writing from the daycare saying you have made your payments and she has not made hers. This may be helpful later in court...


The daycare director sent me an itemized invoice statement, to both WIFE and myself, she highlighted all MY payments and showed were WIFE's were missing.


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Originally Posted By: Joseph9
Quote:
I don't rely on my W for nothing!! She wanted out, she got it. Complete and full.


Amen......When I have my kids I do not reach out to her for anything. If I do it is because she forgot to pack something that goes back and forth between the houses.

When she has them though it is a completely different story. During her weeks I usually her from her every other day with a question about something, sending me a picture or making a joke about something. SMH.


WIFE does the same thing, usually finds some minor thing to complain about or "Where is the shark tee shirt"
stuff like that.


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Quote:
WIFE does the same thing, usually finds some minor thing to complain about or "Where is the shark tee shirt"
stuff like that.


Yep....I just answer the question and keep moving. Don't read into any of it.....


Married 14, Together 17
M: 44, W: 43, D: 8, D: 6
M: 46, W: 45. D: 10. D: 8 (CUR)
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Todays Video Selection - Another By Richard Grannon

"Breaking the "Trauma Bond" "


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Funny you mention that video title. I have recently been thinking about a song by the 80s band Dokken that perfectly sums up the concept of detachment.

"Breaking The Chains" by Dokken

Sit there thinkin'
In your room
You feel the pressure
You're goin' crazy too
The walls around you
Closin' in
You need a change
Claustophobic
Feelin' scared
You need somebody
But no one seems to care
A one way ticket
A change of pace
You've had enough
Can't take no more
Breaking the chains around you
Nobody else can bind you
Take a good look around you
Now you're breaking the chains
Got this letter
Came today
From my baby
Who left me yesterday
Said she loves me
She'll come back
She wants to try
I won't let her
She'll be upset
I know it's better
Than somethin' I'll regret
She's been dishonest
And insincere
I lost my mind
Twenty times a year
Breaking the chains around me
Nobody else can bind me
Take a good look around me
Now I'm breaking the chains
Woke up today
I'm alone
I look around
But baby you were gone
But I don't mind
And I don't worry
I will survive
I'm alone
Now that you're gone
Don't need nobody
To hold or tie me down
I broke the chains
So let me be
I've gotta be free


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"American Woman" by The Guess Who has been a staple for me.


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bummer when the good times come up in your mind.
Im not missing her, but just had a happy memory of an inside joke between WIFE and I.

It's just tough to imagine that was all phoney.
I know the jokes and good times were real in the moment, but there was never a true commitment, never a true R.

Still, i feel clean and resolved. I know happy memories will pop up from time to time, and I will have to watch them float by, knowing they werent REALLY real.

I am still amazed by how much denial the WW, and Mine in particular are capable of.
I literally cannot wrap my head around how someone can re-write history and blameshift to the degree Ive seen WIFE do it, as well as other WW's here on the board.

How in hell do they think that it will ever sustain?
The truth always comes out,
I understand WHY the WW will re-write history, lie and deny.

But HOW they can do it, and believe it, boggles my mind. lol


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Definitely boggles my mind too how people can continue doing this for years and years. My mom has narcissistic personality disorder (not diagnosed but only thing I can think of to explain her life and what she's done), and she has been operating like this her WHOLE life. I can't even begin to tell you how many lives and relationships she's destroyed and how low she's sunk in her actions - it's really revolting.

That was a side note. What I wanted to tell you is this - WS/WW never anticipate how this is going to come back to bite them. Years from now, when your son is older, he will have questions and he will know that his dad was a stand-up person with integrity. He will question his mother and she'll have to face the music. And she hasn't lost him now, but she may lose him in the future. This is what they don't think about or anticipate - the long term view of their actions.

I know this from first hand experience as I had to cut my mom out of my life once I knew all the truth and the damage she had done to me and everyone I loved.

So, it will come for her, but just not in your timeline.


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Makia,

That is very revealing of you to share. thank you.
Yea, its hard to imagine that they continue to do the same things over and over again and still play the victim and pretend like its everyone else's fault.

Do you think that having a (likely) NPD mother lead you to having any co-dependency issues, or contributed to any NGS?

How old were you when you finally saw your moms true colors? Im so sorry you had to live with that for so long.
My son having to deal with that is whole life is a frightening prospect.

Considering she has never held a Job, (She had 4 in our 5 year R)

Boyfriend/Husband, New one every 3-5 years

Friend - Has ZERO friends that shes known for more than a year. All her old "Friends" were discarded with me.

or even a personal hobby (used to paint and draw, is really good at it, doesnt do it anymore. Used to Sing and write, sings beautifully, doesnt do it anymore. BEGGED me for a $550 camera, doesnt use it anymore)

I imagine I will see some form of it in my timeline, but i wont care.
As long as she isnt emotionally abusing S3.
Ill be on that like white on rice if she ever starts up with him when he grows into individuality.
Ill feed her to a ravenous pack of lawyers and judges if she starts manipulating our child for supply.


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O - I'll write a detailed response to your questions because I think it's important for the well being of your son if you W has narcissism issues. From what I have read of her and what you just described in the last post, it seems to fit the bill.


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Just had to add that Dokken is awesome!


M51 W44
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BD date 9/17
W filed 02/18
W withdrew petition following week
In house separation 03/18
In Limbo and DB'ing since 03/18
W is moving out by mid Nov 2018
A drawing up paperwork 11/18

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These are from the Diagnostic Criteria as recognized by the American Psychiatric Society - DSM-5- Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders.

NPD
The definition of NPD states that it comprises of a persistent manner of grandiosity, a continuous desire for admiration, along with a lack of empathy. It starts by early adulthood and occurs in a range of situations, as signified by the existence of any 5 of the next 9 standards (American Psychiatric Association, 2013):

1. A grandiose logic of self-importance
Wife never outwardly did this, but it is evident in the way she talks down about other people, as if they are lesser.


2. A fixation with fantasies of infinite success, control, brilliance, beauty, or idyllic love
Idyllic Love, Beauty, and Control. All Day

3. A credence that he or she is extraordinary and exceptional and can only be understood by, or should connect with, other extraordinary or important people or institutions
See answer #1

4. A desire for unwarranted admiration
This is a BIG one for her, whether it is negative attention from a confrontation, or positive attention from IG posts and things like our wedding photos and whatnot, she is a bonifide attention Whoar.

5. A sense of entitlement
Yes, Most certianly

6. Inter-personally oppressive behavior
I think i am 110% living proof of this, plus her EX's and all the "friends" she has treated like trash over the years.


7. No form of empathy
Yea, this one is OBVIOUS

8. Resentment of others or a conviction that others are resentful of him or her
Again, YES ALL DAY


9. A display of egotistical and conceited behaviors or attitudes.
Yes, Yes and Yes.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Borderline Personality Disorder


The essential features of a personality disorder are impairments in personality (self and interpersonal) functioning and the presence of pathological personality traits. To diagnose borderline personality disorder, the following criteria must be met:



A. Significant impairments in personality functioning manifest by:

1. Impairments in self functioning (a or b):

a. Identity: Markedly impoverished, poorly developed, or unstable self-image, often associated with excessive self-criticism; chronic feelings of emptiness; dissociative states under stress.
Yup
b. Self-direction: Instability in goals, aspirations, values, or career plans.
Also this (See Previous Post)
AND

2. Impairments in interpersonal functioning (a or b):

a. Empathy: Compromised ability to recognize the feelings and needs of others associated with interpersonal hypersensitivity (i.e., prone to feel slighted or insulted); perceptions of others selectively biased toward negative attributes or vulnerabilities.
I think she can RECOGNIZE them, but doesnt FELL others feelings. She cant comprehend what it feels like to be on the recieving end of her BS, but she knows she does it and inflicts pain.

b. Intimacy: Intense, unstable, and conflicted close relationships, marked by mistrust, neediness, and anxious preoccupation with real or imagined abandonment; close relationships often viewed in extremes of idealization and devaluation and alternating between over involvement and withdrawal.
Again, yes she exhibits this. Not as strongly as others, but the abandonment thing gits home, same with Idealization and Devaluation

B. Pathological personality traits in the following domains:

1. Negative Affectivity, characterized by:

a. Emotional lability: Unstable emotional experiences and frequent mood changes; emotions that are easily aroused, intense, and/or out of proportion to events and circumstances.
Yea, She is either BRIMMING with bubbly happiness (be it fake or real) or she is cold, quiet and brooding. No middle ground


b. Anxiousness: Intense feelings of nervousness, tenseness, or panic, often in reaction to interpersonal stresses; worry about the negative effects of past unpleasant experiences and future negative possibilities; feeling fearful, apprehensive, or threatened by uncertainty; fears of falling apart or losing control.
She literally said months ago AND yesterday that "being around you makes me wracked with anxiety OrangeK, I cant be myself around you"
as opposed to how i "Made her feel so safe" when we first met.


c. Separation insecurity: Fears of rejection by - and/or separation from - significant others, associated with fears of excessive dependency and complete loss of autonomy.
Fears rejection, Yes certainly. She wont even order a pizza or talk to a customer service person. Shes that self critical.
the seperation anxiety, kinda, she CANNOT be single, so theres that.
Plus she is very dependand on her source to provide, she is lazy and doesnt adult well. I always paid the bills, booked appointments and so on.


d. Depressivity: Frequent feelings of being down, miserable, and/or hopeless; difficulty recovering from such moods; pessimism about the future; pervasive shame; feeling of inferior self-worth; thoughts of suicide and suicidal behavior.
Once we were married, she hit a depressive state and stayed there for months, until she met OM.
I had become valueless, and she had no replacement lined up, so this depressed her immensely. I think New Years Eve 2016-2017 was a big moment of realization for her, she decided THAT NIGHT she was just bored, and done. Never looked back.


2. Disinhibition, characterized by:

a. Impulsivity: Acting on the spur of the moment in response to immediate stimuli; acting on a momentary basis without a plan or consideration of outcomes; difficulty establishing or following plans; a sense of urgency and self-harming behavior under emotional distress.
I think her meeting OM and jumping right into bed and a R with him, and the cheating on me 3 weeks after our wedding, at her friends wedding is evidence enough of this.
Plus leaving home immediately without considering the financial, emotional, logistical or developmental impacts this would have on S3, Herself and Me.


b. Risk taking: Engagement in dangerous, risky, and potentially self-damaging activities, unnecessarily and without regard to consequences; lack of concern for one's limitations and denial of the reality of personal danger.
Sexual Risk Taking, See above

3. Antagonism, characterized by:

a. Hostility: Persistent or frequent angry feelings; anger or irritability in response to minor slights and insults.
I think ive shown this enough in my posts.

b. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual's personality trait expression are relatively stable across time and consistent across situations.
Hmm. cant say much on this one


c. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual's personality trait expression are not better understood as normative for the individual's developmental stage or socio-cultural environment.

d. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual's personality trait expression are not solely due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, medication) or a general medical condition (e.g., severe head trauma).
She doesn't use drugs (that i am aware of) and has never had a TBI.


---------------------------------------------------------------
I put BPD and NPD on here as both conditions are often co-morbid and share a great many traits.
They often go hand in hand, as these are specturm disorders, each persons place on that spectrum is unique to them.

I am not a psychiatrist, or a psychologist, and WILL NOT directly assume my wife is diagnose-able with either or both of these conditions.
Making medical assumptions is a slippery slope.

That being said, it is often pretty easy to identify these traits, and certainly in someone you have been married to and lived with.


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So keep in mind that my mom has not been diagnosed with NPD, but I can't find any other explanation for her behavior, which has been consistent over all her life.

Some of the key things she has done over the years - lie, manipulate, gaslight everybody. She thrived on create instability in relationships and then exploited them to create dependencies on her.

Especially with her children, she did this since we were children to ensure that we were dependent on her. So, I definitely believe that my co-dependency, NGS, and other stuff has its roots there.

The thing about having a NPD type parent is that it's extremely damaging to the children if there are no other positive influences to balance it out - and even then it's very difficult for the kids to escape unscathed.

My parents marriage fell apart when I was 8, but it was deteriorating for a few years. I had no idea what happened except all the lies she fed me about it. I grew up hating my dad and cut off contact with him for years. He went on remarried and had a new family and so it became easier for him I guess. I also think he was so broken by my mom's continuous lies, manipulation, and infidelity that he just needed to get away. I am a bit critical of that approach as I would never leave my kids. But anyways, that's what happened.

So I grew up hating my father and lost touch with that entire side of the family. I had loving relationships with others in my mom's side of the family, but she slowly destroyed all of that by lies and gaslighting me. It got so bad that I cut contact with them for over a decade.

Here's the reason why it's so damaging when it's happening when you're a kid - you have absolutely no reason to not trust your parent. You also have no marker for comparison and you are still so little that you have no discernment skills. So, I did not understand the magnitude of what was happening. And this went on for almost 3 decades.

But as I got older, the story just didn't add up. There were cracks in it and my mom's explanations and answers didn't make sense. I also got perspective when I had my kids because now I was weighing her life decisions, especially ones that affected us, through a different microscope. And they didn't make sense because they were bad decisions. One of two bad decisions is fine. But a pattern over 2 decades? Now that is not just some bad apples.

The other thing this type of parent does is not only create this crazy level of co-dependency with them, but you also become very fearful to do something that might upset them if they found out.

But when things didn't add up, and I thought about it intensely for a few years, I decided to break rank and contact my family that I hadn't spoken to in a decade. And they asked me if I was ready to hear the truth about everything. And I was. So, I went and saw them in secret, and we spent 2 weeks unpacking decades worth of hurt, trauma, and pain. I got confirmation that my hunches were right and what I learned was devastating.

I didn't find out till my early 30s and then I made the conscious choice of not having her in my life for my own sake but also for my kids. I vowed that my kids would have a fresh start to life without all of this baggage and if that included cutting her out, so be it.

So, when I say here sometimes that I am working through decades of trauma on top of BD to get myself healthy, it really is rooted in my childhood and the effects of this one person and what her choices meant for me.

She doesn't have real friends. She only befriends people who she can use for some reason, and usually it's money. She discards people once they're past their usefulness. She is promiscuous and has cheated on all her boyfriends with multiple men. She is obsessed with wealth and fantasies of luxury, but doesn't want to work for it. She gets involved with rich men who get her stuff and lives off their largesse. She's never really maintained her career or work life and just wanted a hand out.

Anyways, the moral of the story is that a NPD parent can have very damaging consequences on the child. If my father was actively involved, I don't know how things would've been. Even with loving family around me, she was able to exert unbelievable damage to my life.

So create a very stable environment for your son. Be an upstanding person with integrity and truth. I think only a parent can counter the other parent's behaviour and have the same level of weight. How you hold yourself up and what your values are will most likely keep your son more grounded. He will know that you are trustworthy and won't bull$hit him. Start it now so he will always remember that this is who you are. He will trust you as much as he trusts you, and if that remains unbroken over time, he will come to see the truth and reality as he gets older.

Anyways, i hope that makes sense.


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What I forgot to add - she fed me complete lies about her marriage and how it broke down. She blamed my dad for everything and I didn't find out the truth until a few years ago - he left her because she wouldn't stop sleeping with other men. So, I grew up hating my dad my whole life and last saw him when I was 11. I found out the truth a year after he passed away. She cost me my relationship with my dad and I found out too late to do anything about it. I realized that my dad showed amazing patience and magnanimity in front of her madness and cheating. So, the damage is life lasting. I am lucky to have recovered my relationships with other family members, but we all paid dearly for it in time lost. A time of my life when I really needed that family in my life.


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Wow, Makia, that was friggin moving.
Thank you for sharing this incredibly sensitive topic in your life.

It really helped to read this, because Firstly, it shows how much more commonplace it is to have families that need to deal with and cope with this type of toxic personality.
It also shows that WIFE is going to be like this, and self-destruct her own life time after time again.
Neither of these are comforting facts, but it helps me to understand what the long term may look like with WIFE, as well as the fact that i dont feel quite so alone having read this.

You bared a raw part of yourself here Makia, I am deeply grateful.

the portion regarding your father made me cry. I will not allow that to happen to My son and I.

it is staggering how a Mother could do these things.


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Good stuff.

OK, be his rock, because likely she will be a dark cloud........


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Preface:WIFE does NOT like my brother or Sister in law.
WIFE and I Started dating right at the exact same time my brother started dating who is now his wife. my WIFE and her became fast friends early on. Then WIFE chose her as a person close to me to triangulate VERY early on in our R. I think she did this to push my brother and I apart, or because she has this need to be superior to other women. Either way WIFE began antagonizing and triangulating my brothers girlfriend, and it became a bit of a war of attrition over the years I was with WIFE. She drove a wedge between my brother and I by having a drama war with my SIL. I believed my WIFE for years, and thought my SIL was the one who was manipulative and crazy. It wasnt until BD when people showed their colors. WIFE was shown to be the lying deceptive snake she is, and i found out my SIL was hands down one of the most forgiving, generous, caring people ever. Needless to say my WIFE does not like her for the fact that she eventually overcame and rose above WIFE's manipulations.
WIFE also hates my brother for being the one person in my life to speak outwardly against her, and my brother has said some pretty harsh things to her in the past.
My brother and I are closer than brothers, we are like twins.
She tried to F**K with that bond, and it didnt go well for her.
Long story short, WIFE has a PARTICULAR hatred for my brother and his wife.

Also they are AMAZING Aunt and Uncle to S3.
Like miles above and beyond the call of duty.
SIL is who bailed me out when WIFE had me arrested.
SIL has been my helper for court, and all legal issues.
She is a rock, a titan of support and love.

Also worth noting my brother and I used to have a business breeding reptiles for exotic pets. We got rid of all our animals recently to make room for me and S3 at his house. WIFE doesnt know the animals are gone. She is going to look for any reason she can to discredit Brother and SIL's house as a safe living space for S3.
It is clean, safe, has a nice yard, on a lake, and S3 and I have a loving support structure there.


Update:
So last night WIFE texted me

WIFE: I got your new address in the mail
ME: *No answer*
(25 min later) WIFE: Im guessing you and S3 will be sharing the room that was the reptile room?
ME: *No Answer*
-------------------------------
This Morning at 7:45am

WIFE: *Sends Picture of S3 sleeping in PJ's at her mothers house*
WIFE: Since you dont seem to want to believe me, here is a picture of S3 sleeping, at my mothers house, where we both still live, in his bed, which is right next to mine.
Me: *No Answer*



Man, She really doesnt like to be ignored.
admittadly this is the first time she has texted that i have truly ignored her.
Anytime in the past i would wait hours, or even half a day, but I always caved and replied eventually.

She always texts about S3 so she feels ill be obligated to respond i think.

Im not answering.
-------------------------------------------------------
Personal Update.

Still feeling clean, disconnected.
i think ive made real detachment progress for once, just gotta maintain that forward momentum!!!

WIFE has S3 tonight. I think im gonna hit up the climbing gym.
see if i can still send a 5.9 on first try.
Double Dyno to Micro Crimper!


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Awesome OK! Very well done on the ignoring her!

That IS detachment. Action, not words.


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Anyone want to start a pool on how long WIFE will last before texting again without having heard back from me? hahaha.

Im gonna put my guess in for 10am tomorrow.


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OK - I would just add that if she asks a question....like in the text about the reptile room you can answer with a simple "yes" or "no" but nothing more (and delay the response). Anything else that is a statement, or just information sharing there is no need. In the text exchange above it looks like you got asked 1 question and she sent 2/3 statements.

Detachment is not coming off as being pissed off, angry or cold.


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Joseph.

I had considered answering "Yes" to the question about the room I am living in.
I chose not to for 2 reasons.

1.) its the only other bedroom in the house, so its obvious that is the room S3 and I would be in. Shes asking obvious questions just to keep in touch. (same thing with how she had asked for directions to meet up with my parents, and claimed to have "Driving anxiety" when she wasnt even the one driving, and had her GPS. No need to contact me. These are just ways of seeing if I will respond)

2.) She has been very secretive and hiding the fact that she sleeps at OM's with S3, she is still denying this often.

I thought about saying "Yes" but then i realized it isnt directly about S3's CARE.
She doesnt need to know details of my living situation.
She chose not to be in my life, if she wants to "Guess" at where i am living as she puts it, she can guess all she would like.

I am going for cause and effect here, if she wants me to be open and candid about my living situation and where and with whom i spend time with S3, she will need to make the first steps in opening that line of honest and transparent communication.

In the last 2 days she has tried to lay down rules to me about how I date, what I do when with S3, tries to dictate terms of the Divorce to me and expects to have unfettered access to all the types of information she is deliberately withholding from me.

It needs to be established that I am not going to bow to her every demand, and if we are going to establish a quality co parenting relationship, it will be based on a give and take relationship, and i DONT mean she gives me crap, and i take it.

She seems to think the TRO gives her authority over any and all aspects of our parenting situation,
but yet she has fallen behind on Daycare payments 2 separate occasions now, this most recent time she missed 3 payments!! That is $735 in missing tuition payments. She couldn't be bothered to bring S3 to a Dr appointment she had 2 months to get done, she shirks S3 off on her parents half the time she has him.
I have this all documented and ready for court.


Joseph, I feel like her getting answers to non-essential questions like this is a matter of mutual respect, respect she will need to earn.
I gave her respect and trust by benefit of the doubt when i claimed my love for her, and married her.
She destroyed my trust and respect, and has a LONNNNGGG road to go to earn a modicum of either back.

If she can act like an adult for some time, perhaps i will become more open and communicative. Until such time however, as neither message she sent me was urgent or directly about S3's care, i dont see the need to give her the satisfaction of knowing i responded.


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Just be careful that you don't go tit for tat and that you don't stoop to her level.

You live your life and you don't bow down to any of her demands. You do this though with a smile on your face and not acting angry, cold, or pissed off. Ignore the texts that are not actionable and those that are you keep it brief. Your choice, your decision.

In my sitch I had asked my EW to give me a heads up before she introduced her BF to our kids. She said she would but she didn't. When she told me about it I let her know that I was disappointed and frustrated with the choice she made but at the end of the day their was nothing I could do about it.

When I meet someone I could do the same thing and not let her know and I would do it just because she did it to me. As you say "Cause and effect". You stick it to me and I am now going to stick it to you. That's not me though, I will give her a heads up before my girls get introduced to another lady (it is the right thing to do whether or not she extended me the same courtesy). My EW will not sway me or make me move off of my core beliefs. I will do it because it is the right thing to do and her actions don't impact mine.

I would challenge you to stick to your core values of who you are as a man and not let her dictate what you will and will not do. IMO someone has to take the lead and show the path forward.

The more you poke her the more she is going to poke back and it just keeps on going until someone gets tired and says enough is enough.


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Joseph, the difference i think lies in the nature of the WAW/WW.

Your EXW seems to be a reasonable human being, obviously not perfect or you wouldnt be here.

My EX is not. Its all a power struggle game to her.

Take the "Driving Anxiety" messages for example.
What say you of that?
(look back into last thread for details on this, would have been last weekend i posted about it)


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OK, I think a lot of your wife's problem is that she is a spoiled brat. And therefore expects that she can just ask people and they will do it for her. Especially guys. You've said before that she is gorgeous. Well, gorgeous girls sometimes get an air of superiority and entitlement.

I am not disputing your claims of her having a personality disorder because you know her better than I do. But she strikes me as someone that has had everything handed to her on a silver platter and expects that others will pick up for her. Like the tuition payments thing. I think she fully expected you to jump in and rescue her because, well, she's her.

This plays into the manipulation as well. She thinks she can be nice, bat her eyes, flirt her way through life. I told you the other day that I think she can just lead you around by the nose and you will dutifully follow.

I will be interested in seeing how she reacts as you continue to detach. As you are not longer just jumping at her texts and requests. Again, that doesn't mean you are mean or angry. But as you firmly, and nicely, stand your ground she won't know how to act.


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I would also add that everything I did in my sitch I did it with the thought of my 2 girls in the back of my mind. I had a soccer parent come up to me last night and she asked me about the D. Then she commented that she has never seen two people going through a D act the way we did towards each other. She would have had no idea that a D was happening. I agree some of it has to do with my EW however I could have took it completely off the rails and went ape $hit on her. I just chose not to smile

I say that to say this. Your S will never remember what it was like to have his mom and dad under one roof. The only thing your S will have is pictures. My oldest will remember some things, my youngest probably not.

Your W may never respect you but as your S gets older do you want him to see mommy and daddy getting along? Do you want him to be able to be in the same room with the both of you? Do you want him to feel comfortable around the both of you?

If you want all of those things then you are going to have to pave the way for him and that means taking the high road and potentially swallowing your pride when it comes to your EW along the way because I highly doubt she is going to be capable of it.

Everything I did in my sitch I did it for my girls and my goal was to make them feel comfortable talking and interacting with us both, at the same time, and in the same room.

I am not telling you to not stand your ground or waiver from your core beliefs but going tit for tat is not a recipe for success. IMO DBing is about taking the high road. Now that you are separated there are not many boundaries that you can enforce. IMO now it is all about how you react to certain situations and those reactions will tell her a lot about where you are at mentally.

I read the convo about the Driving.....as V says they have scrambled eggs for brains. My EW still calls me about things that she should know the answers to. She gets confused a lot as well which just tells me the mental state she is in. It sounds like your W is very similar and is probably focused on the wrong things.

Stand your ground, don't pay her bills, don't enable her, don't bend over backwards.......just don't come off as being angy, pissed off, and cold about it. Yes, no, thank you, or no response at all.

When you pull back and she doesn't get what she wants I guarantee you she is going to lash out more especially once she starts to feel you pull away. You really have to prepare yourself for when that time comes and it will test your entire being.


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Unless she asks a direct question about S3 such as "did you pack his green shirt?" or "how is he doing with potty training?" or "Where am I picking S3 up today"

I see no need in answering her. I dont think thats being mean or cold, its just me respecting my own boundaries i have set.

I think If i continued to respond where i dont NEED to, i run the risk of actually being mean or cold verbally. I think at this juncture, silence is golden.

She hasnt gotten silence from me except during the TRO period before communication about S3 was opened. This is how I have chosen to establish and display detachment.

Steve, you are right about the spoiled brat complex. Her parents have ALWAYS swooped in to save her @$$ when she has gone through these cycles before and had to bail out of living situations after she has devalued and discarded people, or been found out for who and what she is (this is what happened between her last EX and Me, she moved out of state to live with some guy [b]{while her EX was still deployed in the Army mind you.....} and when he discovered what she had done (this guy was also a soldier) he sent her packing in shame)
Her parents have always been there to rescue her when she does this.
Plus all the guys she has duped over the years, she is totally used to people just doing what she asks, especially when she spins the "Woe is me" act along with it.
When she doesnt get her way, is when she goes into antagonistic passive aggressive attack mode.


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Quote:
Unless she asks a direct question about S3 such as "did you pack his green shirt?" or "how is he doing with potty training?" or "Where am I picking S3 up today"

I see no need in answering her. I dont think thats being mean or cold, its just me respecting my own boundaries i have set.


I agree

Quote:
I think If i continued to respond where i dont NEED to, i run the risk of actually being mean or cold verbally. I think at this juncture, silence is golden.


I agree


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I second what J9 said. I attacked my sitch (eventually) with the main thing of doing only what would yield the best outcome and life for my daughter. That's all that mattered. My daughter was also a young one at 6 months old when this all happened and OW has been her stepmother ever since.

My daughter has had to live her whole life this way. So I realized she needed to be comfortable with all the key players in her life. My ex is a spoiled brat narc too. I call him out when needed, and only for my daughter's sake.

Act in the best interest of your S.

Oh, and I thought you were going to start focusing more on your stuff rather than her personality disorder? Your post yesterday sure did outline her personality disorder.....

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[quote=Ginger1

Oh, and I thought you were going to start focusing more on your stuff rather than her personality disorder? Your post yesterday sure did outline her personality disorder..... [/quote]

That was due to the discussion I was having with Makia about the topic.
He and I were going back and forth about it, and comparing notes.
Had it not been brought up in conversational exchange with other DB'ers I would not have brought it up.
But thanks for keeping me honest, i didnt know that me posting that would bother you Ginger.

I am acting in the best interest of my S, right now an amicable situation is not a realistic option. It will be in the future, likely after D is finalized, but right now I know my situation would be exasperated by talking with WIFE, and as far as I am concerned that is worse for S3.
I am choosing no contact for non confrontation for the sake of S3.

------------------------------------------------------------------

In regards to Ginger and J9 about how to act and whether or not to reply.
I will eventually become more open and communicative.
I will take the high road and lead that change, when its time.
Right now everything she is doing is antagonistic.
I have stated several times in the past an amicable co parenting situation is my ultimate goal, but that will take time to establish.
I have sent out olive branches in the attempt to establish this only to be met with derisive hostility.
I will bide my time and re-approach this when things have settled down a bit.


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I am more than happy to share if it can help gain some insight and perspective. I am also keeping my heart more open in real life and online as I need to not be ashamed of my past, and connect with people meaningfully.

As much as this has caused so so much damage, I am not a victim of it now. If anything, you find the strength and resilience from what you have gone through.

Yes, it is staggering what a parent can do. The magnitude of the damage caused by my mother to every single family member and many others is truly unbelievable. At least with my family members, we all shared the truth and started the healing process together.

Anyways, the moral of the story is that you be the best parent you can be. And then be even better than that some more. Learn self-reliance as much as possible and keep co-parenting civil. I think you're on a good path already and you'll get stronger.

I told myself that I will never repeat the mistakes of both my parents. And I am doing it. Trauma and hurt doesn't have to keep on going for generations. I made the conscious break and it's awesome.


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Quote:
I am not a victim of it now


I read your story....don't you ever shy away from it, you own it. Never be ashamed of who you are or where you came from.

You my friend are a machine! You are going to make some lady, one day, very happy!


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Thanks J! Yeah, it's been a long road of recovery so far and I still have some more miles ahead of me, but I am stronger than ever before. I am looking forward to having that lady in my life that is also a warrior. It's been such a life, but it's getting better with every day.


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Makia, you are a champ. Seriously. with all youve been through and the attitude you have about life, youre a role model.

--------------------------------------------------

Big plans with S3 this weekend, as I will have him from Thursday night to Sunday evening.
Going to go out on SIL's fathers boat.
SIL's Dad and S3 have the same name, and S3 really likes him and thoroughly enjoys going out on his boat.
I haven't been out on the Ocean in AGES i am really looking forward to it.

The following weekend is my birthday, and some friends are planning a special D&D session for me, which should be a blast!
My Bday is on that Sat, I will have S3 on Sunday night, so i will celebrate with him then.

I dont like waiting, feeling like i need to anticipate the next time WIFE decides to try and push my buttons, but it is what it is.
Just time to roll with the punches and stay frosty.


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Thanks O. I owe a huge debt of gratitude to the DB community, my therapist, and some close friends IRL that gave me great support, advice, and encouragement. I aim to pay it forward as much as I can here.


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Ehhhh.

A few attachment feelings have been trying to bubble up today.

I am happy with how much better I am at neutralizing them quickly, but Ill be much happier when they don't happen at all.

I think subconsciously, not having responded to her is bothering me, it goes against what my addicted mind wants. To talk to her, but i proved myself the other day that talking to her is only an invite for pain and frustration, so a big fat NO on that one.


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Originally Posted By: OrangeK
Ehhhh.

A few attachment feelings have been trying to bubble up today.

I am happy with how much better I am at neutralizing them quickly, but Ill be much happier when they don't happen at all.

I think subconsciously, not having responded to her is bothering me, it goes against what my addicted mind wants. To talk to her, but i proved myself the other day that talking to her is only an invite for pain and frustration, so a big fat NO on that one.


It's interesting you say that it subconsciously bothers you to not respond to her. I'm at this point kind of having the opposite feeling...I actually feel better letting my W's texts simmer for awhile or just not responding at all at times. Funny thing is, she usually responds very promptly to me. lol. I think my W knows at this point though that I'm unwilling to help her with anything that isn't an emergency in regards to our S so she doesn't bother as much as before.

For what it's worth, I'd say you are definitely better off not responding or at least letting her squirm for awhile if you feel you absolutely must respond. Especially if it's not important.


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The description of the female covert NPD sounds so much Like your W. Everything you've said about her, appears to fall into this category.

She will often choose men who have been wounded from a previous relationship.
Upon meeting the man, she will engage in sex almost immediately.
She depends upon her physical beauty and sexuality to gain attention, seduce, etc.
During the initial stages of their relationship, she feeds the man's ego and makes him feel like a "real man". The love bombing period is how she gets him addicted to her. Then when she discards him, he will crave her as if she were his drug.

There is no closure.......if you seek it from the narcissist. They will not confess, admit wrong doing, or apologize for treating you terribly. They will not take responsibility for fault. They believe it is never their fault. They will never honestly answer the questions you seek. Closure must be found outside and away from the NPD.

Co-parenting is a nightmare. You can't co-parent with a NPD female, like you could a normal person. She won't be reliable. She won't be responsible for paying for her share of cost. You can't discuss things with her without her pushing your buttons or making a dig at you in some way. She's going to play the victim, etc. There are several videos about this subject.

She will never respect your boundaries. It is a waste of time to tell her something is your boundary, b/c she will step over the boundary line just to get a reaction from you. Getting a reaction from you is her "supply". The NPD has to have "supply". This is what feeds her. It doesn't matter if it is a positive or negative response.......as long as you react, it feeds her NPD. What the NPD can't stand is no reaction whatsoever. For instance, if you were face to face, you would show no emotion in your facial expressions. And you would not look her in the eye. (I know, this is contrary to the 37 rules, but those were for when dealing with a non NPD). You would not give her your undivided attention. You would not act interested or affected by anything she said. If she threatens, don't show a reaction. Just give a universal one-word answer for whatever she says.........like, "Okay"........without any emotion.

The female with NPD will not change. She has no capacity for empathy. She will throw you a crumb ever so often in order to keep you addicted, which supplies her with your reactions. As long as you give her supplies, she won't leave you alone. She is all about drama and chaos. The more you stir the pot, the more you feed her.

If you allowed her to come back into a R with you, the same cycle would repeat itself.

According to all the videos I watched, the previous attempts you made and even some of the suggestions given.........cannot work successfully when dealing with a NPD. You cannot have the type of communication rapport you might otherwise have with a normal person. It would be to your health's advantage to only respond to her questions in a business like manner, and leave all emotions out of it. Do not add anything. Don't try to be nice, wish her a good day, made snide remarks or anything. You cannot be friends, and you cannot one up her. Distant yourself every way possible from the NPD and focus on healing yourself apart and outside of her.

You must find your self worth apart from her. You believed all her fluff & puff she was giving your ego during the love bombing phase. It's time to build a healthy self-esteem indepentant from her or another person. When you depend on another person to be the foundation or source of your self worth........then what happens if they discard you? It's worse than just experiencing heartbreak over losing the one you loved, b/c you feel as if you've lost yourself.

I have heard people who were addicted to cocain say that they never got that same feeling as they had the first time they used it. Every hit was them seeking that initial high they experienced the first time. You have had a long, painful period of withdrawals. I hope you won't look to her to get that "feeling" you credit her giving you during the love bombing.


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Originally Posted By: OrangeK


Steve, you are right about the spoiled brat complex. Her parents have ALWAYS swooped in to save her @$$ when she has gone through these cycles before and had to bail out of living situations after she has devalued and discarded people, or been found out for who and what she is (this is what happened between her last EX and Me, she moved out of state to live with some guy [b]{while her EX was still deployed in the Army mind you.....} and when he discovered what she had done (this guy was also a soldier) he sent her packing in shame)
Her parents have always been there to rescue her when she does this.
Plus all the guys she has duped over the years, she is totally used to people just doing what she asks, especially when she spins the "Woe is me" act along with it.
When she doesnt get her way, is when she goes into antagonistic passive aggressive attack mode.



Wow, this couldn't be any more different than my sitch. My W's parents and family weren't putting up with her bullsh#t right from the start even though she has never done anything like this. They weren't willing to support her in breaking up our family for no reason or her sudden personality change. As soon as they started questioning her, she got really antagonistic towards them and ended up having a huge falling out. The situation for my W blew up horribly for her in this regard, especially considering how highly she was respected by them before this.

I guess your W's parents are a lot more willing to overlook her behavior than my W's. I guess if they have provided her with rescue every time, then all they have done is validate her behavior basically.


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OK be strong my friend. You are doing the right thing.

Here is the thing:

You are doing the right thing....FOR YOU!

Not for her or the MR. FOR YOU! (and for S3 of course too!)

So be strong. Her attempts to manipulate you deserve to be ignored. Her attempts to keep you attached deserve to be ignore. Her attempts to provoke you deserve to be ignored!

Logistics about S3. That's it. Otherwise....NC/Dark.


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Because we've been talking about self-worth, self-esteem, and action on O's thread, I am just going to leave this here for people who are reading. No need for comments but wanted to share something that has been very helpful for me recently.

Google the author Kris Gage and her article called 'how to build your self esteem'. It cuts through most of the nonsense out there and gives a more insightful take. There are a couple of things I could quibble about her piece, but they are minor points.


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BEWAS - You are lucky that your WW's parents are rational. My wives parents have been cleaning up after her chaos for her whole life. She is their only child, and I blame bother her parents for abuse, and enabling her behaviors.
If you look at Sandi's post about how ADDICTIVE she has been you can see why it took my so long to approach detachment healthily, and why its so hard to resist texting her back, etc.
I am seeing now how much it bugs her to be ignored. I plan on keeping my silent vigil!

Sandi - It has been such a hard thing to accept that she truly is this messed up. That she truly is fixable and everything i ever knew of her was fabricated and deliberate. It is such a damaging factor to how i look at any person i meet now, its all through my Van Helsing style Narc-Radar.
I dont like how mistrustful it has made me, but i cant fathom being hurt like this again, so i think my defenses will be up for some time. The only course of action is complete, and utter NC, and going as dark as the inside of a pocket. Other than HARD FACTS and NECESSARY info regarding S3.
If we didnt have a child, i would honestly consider moving to a different state.
Keeping with NC and DARK will be my challenge, i know she knows the right things to say to woo me, or get under my skin.
I know she will try and eventually seduce me to do her some favor, or give her money.
She will likely try and use me to triangulate OM when she becomes bored with him (same thing she did with her EX when her and I were together)
She is truly showing her colors now, trying to be controlling, nosy, entitled and immature.

I am just going to watch from the shadows as she continues to burn down the world around her.
Im a firefighter. I got this.

Unit Commander OrangeK to Dispatch, We will be on scene for extended period, we have a large industrial structure with heavy fire in the interior, flames beginning to show through roof. All companies set up for defensive operations. I want Master stream lines deployed at the Alpha, Bravo and Delta sides of the building, with focus on containing the flames within the affected building. Strike a 3rd alarm, mutual aid to the scene.
Have EMS stage on scene for potential injuries, and order a HazMat Response for toxic run-off.


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Originally Posted By: OrangeK
BEWAS - You are lucky that your WW's parents are rational. My wives parents have been cleaning up after her chaos for her whole life. She is their only child, and I blame bother her parents for abuse, and enabling her behaviors.
If you look at Sandi's post about how ADDICTIVE she has been you can see why it took my so long to approach detachment healthily, and why its so hard to resist texting her back, etc.
I am seeing now how much it bugs her to be ignored. I plan on keeping my silent vigil!


I know, I think I'm very lucky in that regard in my sitch. I mean...she blames me for her current situation but I guess that's par for the course with her lately. Everything has been my fault regardless. :P It definitely is enabling on her parents part.

After reading Sandi's post there, wow, I think our WW's are similar mostly only in that they are both WW but my W was never the way she has been acting lately. It was like a switch was turned in her head as she never showed any of these characteristics before. It was a 180 degree turn in personality. It seems your W has been like this for a long time and doing it to others all her life. It seems you are dealing with a different beast entirely lol.

Keep on with the silence man, I think it will help you for sure in the long run!


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Orange... the similarities between our W's are uncanny. The only real differences I see is your W actually wanting to do some parenting and my W's drug issues. Besides those 2 things, they could be the same person. Weird...


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Never replied to any messages yesterday.
WIFE sent another photo just now, of S3 at her moms again.

WIFE: "Again, Good morning From my Moms house"


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OrangeK- stay calm- be the lighthouse. Do not respond unless it is an emergency or if it is necessary. Stay well!


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Lw. Thanks!

This is honestly amusing at this point!


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LOL

Me thinks the lady doth protest too much!


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Well she isnt protesting about anything. I think she is just confused as to why i have all the sudden stopped replying.

I find it interesting she is now trying to validate and confirm that she is at her mothers each night, we both know as a fact she has co slept S3 at OM's house, and she just denies it.
Its amazing the length she is going to in order to attempt to add some validity to her story.


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Originally Posted by OrangeK
Well she isnt protesting about anything. I think she is just confused as to why i have all the sudden stopped replying.

I find it interesting she is now trying to validate and confirm that she is at her mothers each night, we both know as a fact she has co slept S3 at OM's house, and she just denies it.
Its amazing the length she is going to in order to attempt to add some validity to her story.


No she is protesting about not being at OM house. Her need to convince you is too obvious. Those with nothing to hide don't go through all the trouble of PROVING they have nothing to hide.


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By the way, great job on ignoring it. You know it is driving her nuts! LOL


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Originally Posted by Steve85


No she is protesting about not being at OM house. Her need to convince you is too obvious. Those with nothing to hide don't go through all the trouble of PROVING they have nothing to hide.


Good point, when you said "Protesting" my mind went to something she was disagreeing with me about, but "Protesting" her having been co-sleeping at OM's house, and now "Protesting" that she isnt makes sense.

"Those with nothing to hide don't go through all the trouble of PROVING the have nothing to hide"
Truer words were never spoken.

It just makes me a bit jumpy as to what she might try if she continues to not get the results she wants through this method.


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Originally Posted by OrangeK
Well she isnt protesting about anything. I think she is just confused as to why i have all the sudden stopped replying.

I find it interesting she is now trying to validate and confirm that she is at her mothers each night, we both know as a fact she has co slept S3 at OM's house, and she just denies it.
Its amazing the length she is going to in order to attempt to add some validity to her story.


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I'm just trying to figure out how to post my reply.


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Standing by Sandi.


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Wow, just saw the "Joined Apr 2018" on my name. I cant believe its only been 3 months.
feels like ive been posting here for a year lol


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Has the forum had a facelift? I hate it. I can't copy & past, and the only way to reply is using this "Quick Reply" option. What happened to the tool bar? How will I ever underline and bold words? I am old school, so I need someone to tell me what to do.


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There is still the "Use Full Editor" option.

Im not a fan of the new look myself.


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Yuck! I hate it. I am so lost. I need someone to tutor me.


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Under the quick reply field, if you look at the bottom, there are the 3 buttons there have always been. hit "Use Full Editor" and it gives you all the same font options it has in the past.

TESTING

EXAMPLE


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Ah-ha! Thanks sweetie. I thought I had clicked on it, but guess it was something else. Now, maybe I can get back to business. smile


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Well, this doesn't work on my IPad. cry


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Originally Posted by sandi2
Has the forum had a facelift?


Yes the good news is that your posts will no longer disappear.

Definitely use the full editor mode, which should give you all the bells and whistles from before.

We will all need to get use to using it.

Also in case you did not notice the edit button will work for 10 mins.

Please everyone use is it but keep your posts within the terms of service/board rules


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So i just got an email from Daycare.

WIFE payed her past due balances with the Daycare today, but didnt pay this weeks bill.

The daycare director sent another email after saying

"WIFE, thank you for your recent payent of the past due balances. Your bill for this week of 7/9-7/13 is still due.
OrangeK, you are all up to date. I have you on deck to pay next week - 7/16-7/20.

Thanks both of you, if you have any questions you can reach me at "Phone Number for Daycare".

Thanks,

Mrs. Daycare Director."

This email included an updated invoice.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

She is getting more disorganized.

She still hasnt filled out or submitted her Child Support packet that she HAS to complete FIRST, before I even get mailed my enrollment package for ChildSupport.
She has had this since the first week of June.
I literally cannot pay her any child support until she completes this.
Clearly she needs my money.......


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Testing my device,

Sandi I don't have an I pad to try so I will need someone else to help us here.

I have notified the Administrator of this issue too.

Last edited by Cadet; 07/12/18 04:34 PM.

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Any progress Sandi?


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Works on my phone, but nothing on my Ipad.


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Originally Posted by sandi2
Works on my phone, but nothing on my Ipad.



Maybe try a different browser on the iPad?

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Originally Posted by OrangeK
So i just got an email from Daycare.

WIFE payed her past due balances with the Daycare today, but didnt pay this weeks bill.

The daycare director sent another email after saying

"WIFE, thank you for your recent payent of the past due balances. Your bill for this week of 7/9-7/13 is still due.
OrangeK, you are all up to date. I have you on deck to pay next week - 7/16-7/20.

Thanks both of you, if you have any questions you can reach me at "Phone Number for Daycare".

Thanks,

Mrs. Daycare Director."

This email included an updated invoice.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

She is getting more disorganized.

She still hasnt filled out or submitted her Child Support packet that she HAS to complete FIRST, before I even get mailed my enrollment package for ChildSupport.
She has had this since the first week of June.
I literally cannot pay her any child support until she completes this.
Clearly she needs my money.......


Bumping for opinions


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There is pretty much nothing you can do as you were both CC'd on the email. She knows. Now she has to decide what to do.

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Ginger,

More on the 2nd part.
She is getting more and more disorganized. Missing payments, neglecting Dr. appointments, not putting socks on S3, and making every Sunday pickup / dropoff of S3 a huge hassle.

IDK why she insists on making everything difficult, then blaming me.

She has messaged me 3 days in a row now, once to ask about my living arrangements, and twice to "prove" she sleeps at her mothers. I havent texted her back since Monday.


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OK - My W is not organized either and we even have a joint calendar with all the kids activities on it. She will even call me to pseudo get permission to miss certain things. It is what it is, I believe it is due to her focus not being on S3 right now and her attention is other places (probably placed on the OM and her new life). My EW does the same thing.

She makes things difficult I believe as a way to remove some of the guilt from her conscience by making you out to be the bad guy. That is why it is important to hold the line.

My EW used to text like that early on.....eventually she stopped when I didn't respond. She will get the message over time.


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Nothing you can do about her disorganization either.

You can just document, get what needs to get done for S3 and that is about it.

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And what G said.....nothing you can do about it.

I will engage if it involves my kids and nothing else. She knows not to ask me about anything else. She knows I am not her maintenance man, her shoulder to cry on, and I don't want to hear about her BF. So far she has not come to me with any of it.


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I wasnt asking if there was anything i could do about it.


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I guess call me guilty of some minor mind reading attempts. Funny how one can attempt to mind read while activley trying not to mind read.

Honestly i think by asking that i was asking "What do these things mean?" "If WIFE is acting this why, what is going on on her end?"

Which are things i shouldn't be concerning myself with, and when i asked, i didnt have these in the front of my mind.
Literally subconsciously working against myself. At least im recognizing that now instead of denying it and arguing with people i guess. Progress?

They say DBing is for YOU not the WS, but the DBer also has to fight against being his/her own worst enemy.

Its amazing how LITTLE of a thing can cause a trigger, im just so glad i can mitigate the triggered responses now.

The picture of S3 WIFE sent this morning from the room at her mothers house had her left hand in the photo.
Just seeing her hand made me think of 1000 things.
"Thats where her ring should be"
"how many times did i hold that hand?"
"this was the hand that held me, and fed our child"

Thankfully, today, these were merely thoughts, not a flood of varying emotions.


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My EW sold her engagement ring for $1700 to buy Christmas presents.......SMH

I will never understand how she got to the place she was in.

I am sure you will be in for more surprises as your story continues to unfold.


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M: 46, W: 45. D: 10. D: 8 (CUR)
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Joseph.

When WIFE cleaned her stuff out of the storage unit I had been paying for back in March, she left behind all of our wedding decorations, her wedding dress (it was left literally in a pile on the floor of the storage unit IN A PUDDLE), family photo albums of prints that cannot be replaced of her as a little girl in Ireland with her family (she took the $8.00 in Scottish money though), clothes she had never worn, a stack of family photos.

Sentimentality - ZERO


M: 35, EX-W: 3, S:4
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Yep.....my EW wedding dress is still hanging in the spare bedroom closet along with all of our family photos. She took nothing outside of furniture, a bed, wall décor, and her clothes. I am saving the stuff for our D's.


Married 14, Together 17
M: 44, W: 43, D: 8, D: 6
M: 46, W: 45. D: 10. D: 8 (CUR)
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I guess i kinda just hoped that all of these instances of her getting more disorganized and erratic would mean there could be some form of unraveling or destabilization on her end of things, be it with her Mother, OM, her Job, or something.

The woman needs to see consequences from her actions, even if they aren't consequences for her actions against me.

I know that's not the most "Detached" thought process, and i honestly shouldn't be wasting my time thinking about those potential eventualities. It is still definitely a challenge that i have to consciously keep myself in check about, trying to analyze everything she does and doesn't do.
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All that said, i will say the irony of a woman who felt the need to take out an RO against me is the one messaging me daily now... lol


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OK - I wish that was the case, I really do. Early on I thought the same thing about my EW, it is hard to not read into things. Over time though you just get emotionally wore out from doing it and eventually you stop and that desire becomes less and less.

I never imagined in a million years my EW would have done what she did. Never, ever. Me and our girls were the only family she had. She told me many times I was her rock and we were together for 17 years.

I will never understand what happened and how she got to the place she is in but I have accepted it. I will never take her back......she has caused too much damage and I could never truly forgive her for the pain she has caused. I will always love her as the mother of my children but our path's are going to be forever different.

Over time you will get there. Chances are the consequences she will face will have nothing to do with you or S3. It will happen when you least expect it, it will be totally random and more than likely by then you will have moved on yourself and you might be married again in a loving R that blows what you and your W had out of the water.

Eventually you will accept these things and truthfully your E might never feel the consequences of her actions or if she does it still might not mean that she turns back to you.

This board is more of a support group than anything else. Some people DB like [censored] and their spouse returns. Others DB perfectly and the spouse never returns. When everyone first arrives that is all the want, they want their spouse to return. Over time you will make the shift and the desire to save yourself will be more important than your spouse returning.


Married 14, Together 17
M: 44, W: 43, D: 8, D: 6
M: 46, W: 45. D: 10. D: 8 (CUR)
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I think that shift happened for me the other day.

I do not want WIFE back, wouldnt take her back if she begged me.
I know the reading into things will continue to become less frequent or strong, ive already seen that happening over the last few weeks.

Shes just so damn skewed and erratic its hard not to be like "WTF?! why would she do that and whats her endgame?"

Chaos is the best way i can think to explain it. Pure, Raw Chaos.
Chaos in of itself is not destructive, it just cares not if it results in destruction.


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I understand the erratic.....I thought when my EW reached out to me for stupid random things that it was a sign that she was moving closer to me. Then after I moved her into her apartment I found out she had a BF.......SMH.

I just think it's about where they are at mentally. My EW called me honey at our kitchen table in the same sentence she was telling me about her BF.

You just have to let it go in one ear and out the other and keeping moving forward.


Married 14, Together 17
M: 44, W: 43, D: 8, D: 6
M: 46, W: 45. D: 10. D: 8 (CUR)
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Originally Posted by OrangeK
"WTF?! why would she do that and whats her endgame?


I and everyone else aware of my sitch in my life are asking the same thing about my W. It's just so damned irrational.

Their endgames are non existent I think... *shrugs*

The more the rational mind tries to understand something completely irrational like the WW mind, the crazier it makes the rational mind imo.


W 31(WW) Me 32
Married 7 years together 12
1 kid - 1.5 yr old S
BD 23/05/2018
Separated since BD
I moved out 20/06/2018 for my own sanity
OM or just fling? Not sure...
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There is no way to ever understand.....last weekend my ew was talking to me about us opening a business together. Absolutely makes no sense.......again let it go in one ear and out the other and keep walking. It is just noise, do not try to make sense of it.


Married 14, Together 17
M: 44, W: 43, D: 8, D: 6
M: 46, W: 45. D: 10. D: 8 (CUR)
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Hey Orange, have you watched videos on Cognitive Behavior Technique? If not, I encourage you to look for the basic CBT. I wish every LBS would read about it or watch youtube. I thought about the time you asked how you could stop having thoughts about your W all the time. Like, how could you get her out of your head. Take a look at some of the videos and see what you think about them. I watched LuAnn Helms, and she gave practice skills. Maybe this would be something that could help you.


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Sandi,

I have been hearing about CBT through the videos by folks like Richard Grannon.
I was going to ask IC about it when i get setup with her, as she is on vaca until Monday.

I will be looking into the videos you mention.
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I am Looking forward to a good string of GAL events coming up!

I am going to take S3 on "Abenture" tonight after daycare pickup.
Ill probably take him in the canoe across the lake to the playground at my brothers house where i am now living.
Tomorrow we are going out on the ocean on SIL's Fathers Boat.
SIL's Dad and S3 have the same name, and S3 LOVES spending time with him, so thatll be good.
Sunday will be a relaxed day with S3 and then WIFE comes to get him on Sunday evening at 5pm.
Monday my friends have planned a special birthday edition of a D&D Gamenight for me.
Then i have S3 Tuesday Night and Wednesday.
After that I will be leaving super early on Friday for a big important business trip to Wash. DC on Friday. Very excited about this. Quick trip, flying to DC in the early AM, doing my meeting with some Big Movers in DC, then Flying back hom Fri Night. Just in time for my birthday on Sat.

S3 has been excited for my Birthday, and I will see him on Next Sunday night, and will celebrate my Bday with him then.

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Tuesday I am meeting with my grandparents to finalize funding for L.
WIFE has been accumulating neglected responsibilities that will not look good in court.
Has fallen behind on Daycare payments Twice, but yet has not filled out or sent in her packet she needs to complete for me to be able to pay child support.
I have mounting proof of the co-sleeping at OM's house.
S3 was telling me last night that she told him to say the "Boo Boo"s he got happened at my old roommates (Uncle BestFriend) house (She obviously told him to say this before she knew i moved from my BestFriends to my Brothers). He had 2 cuts, one on his thigh and one on his back. He said they were from "Bumping into Nails" whatever that meant.
They were little cuts, certainly nothing to worry over, hes a 3yo boy. Hes going to get bumps and scratches, im ok with that.
What I am not OK with is her telling him to say they happened when he was with me.
I asked him where the boo boo's came from and he said "Uncle BestFriend's House"
I told him we haven't been to Uncle BestFriend's In a few weeks, and that the boo boo's were new.
he replied "Mama said Uncle BestFriends"
i asked "Did Mama tell you to say you got those boo boos at Uncle BestFriend's?"
S3: "Yea!"
ME: "Oh ok, well they didnt happen there, but thats ok. Are your boo boo's ok and getting better?"
S3: "Yea!"
Me: "ok Buddy thats all that matters, i love you"


M: 35, EX-W: 3, S:4
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Weird. Getting the "Twisty stomach" feeling, like something bad is happening/going to happen.

I am in a GREAT mood today, so that is odd.

I swear my body/subconscious can tell when something is going to happen even if my conscious mind does not.

I hope I am wrong, and nothing happens.


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OrangeK, sounds like fun plans coming up! Didn't you get that feeling in your stomach before a concert and fun weekend you had planned previously? Maybe there's a correlation between making a lot of plans and some anxiety or anticipation about them? You might still consider the magnesium supplement or some dietary changes to manage the feeling in your stomach and physical sensations you get if your doctor says that's ok. I have no idea about your lifestyle and diet but you can try drinking more water, reducing caffeine and alcohol, and eating healthy easy-to-digest foods when your stomach has that feeling but it does sound more connected to your mental state so it's probably just related to the life stress you're experiencing.

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Nicole, Yes I did get the feeling before when i went to a concert. Major difference is that it was accompanied by one of the LOWEST lows of depression i have hit to date. I am feeling wonderful today.

I dont have a PC Physician, so thats not rly an option. No Health Ins either.

Oddly each time this has happened in the past (the weird stomach feeling) it has often (not always) been followed by some new event in the divorce/separation.

I just feel like she may get desperate / wreckless where i have been ignoring her. I hate having to speculate in what wasys shes going to try and discredit and slander me.
Like teaching our son to lie about where he got injuries.
So messed up.
I hope shes just busy with her own life and doesnt bother me.


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I am going to type out a new letter for WIFE that I will post here, and NOT SEND TO WIFE.

I have done this twice before, and its helpful.
I find re-doing it as my outlook and perspective changes is helpful to keep myself on track.
Heads up. Itll likely be lengthy.


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I think this is good.

I started with "WIFE, "

And sat here for a good 5 min trying to start a "NEVER-SEND" letter to WIFE,
and i couldn't come up with anything.

I dont have anything left to say to her, that i havent already said or have deemed useless to say.

I could easily draft a letter ranting and raving at her.
Calling her a liar, and a cheat, and a deceptive predator.
She would just enjoy the negative attention (hypothetically, as i would never send the letter i couldnt write smile ), and all that would do for me is stir up negative emotions and leave me with angry questions that lack answers, or have answers she will never give me.
No profit there.

I could also write a letter from the perspective of the loving, wounded, betrayed husband.
I could outline how she betrayed me, how we both know what she lied about and why.
I could talk about the good times, and ask "WHy did you throw it away"
She doesnt know that herself, so its again pointless to ask.
It would be a weak, NGS letter filled with veiled pursuit and Oozing with Beta Male subservience.
All that would do is make me depressed and (again hypothetically) she would just view it as weakness and it would show she still has her hooks in me.
No profit there either.

I could also write a letter saying that I know who and what she is, i dont hate her, i pity her.
I will not be a cuck, or a friend, I have boundaries and she needs to respect them.
That i know she is damaged and that what she did is a pattern, and part of a PD, and ultimately not her fault.
That would be disarming. It would alleviate her needing to take responsibility for her actions (which will never happen anyway) and basically gives her a get out of jail free card because she can claim its not her fault.
A good friend of mine went through MUCH WORSE trauma as a child, and she is self-aware and activley in mental health. She is well rounded and owns her disorders, and manages them.
WIFE's PD, past, history and trauma is NO EXCUSE for how she acted and what she did.
A mature adult would have recognized the self-destructive patterns she participates in and would have sought help by now.
NO PROFIT TO BE HAD HERE EITHER.

I know why she did this. Its what she always does.
I know why she lied.
I know why she hid the pregnancy.
I know she cheated and talked to men behind my back.
I know she has never been honest with anyone her whole life, even herself.
I know she doesn't care, never loved me and is incapable of ever loving anyone.

I dont have questions anymore.
I dont have any points to make to her, or rants i want to berate her with,

Will i still miss her sometimes? Probably.
Will i still recall the good times as good. Yes.
Are there aspects of her personality i will always like? Yes.
Is she beautiful? Yes.
Is she worth my time? No.
Do is deserve better? Yes
Will a time come where she wants to talk, and has things to say and share with me?
Likely, but im not holding my breath,
Will she regret her decisions? I have no clue.
Would it change anything if she did? NO.

Do i value myself, and think I am a good man? Yes
Do i have things to work on personally? Yes
Am i still healing? Totally.
Will it take time? Hell yes.

I did my best.
I was a good husband. Despite being painted as a physically and emotionally abusive, non-supportive jerk. I am not and i was not. I know that as much as she tries to lie to me, and herself, about what caused this and who was in the wrong, she knows the truth. It likely haunts her, as it should.
One more deed to add to her list of reasons for self loathing.


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I thought I would share something I learned from watching a CBT video. This practice is for those who have trouble with spinning thoughts/emotions. My notes won't read near as well as the psychologist sounded in the video, but here they are FWIW.

* Notice the thoughts that run through your mind. Recognize that your thoughts are not facts. Thoughts are not decisions. You may think about doing something bad, but it doesn't mean you will make that choice.

*Notice where your mind goes when thinking of some event in your life. What happens if your mind leaves the present time and thinks of something you might face in the future? Maybe you will feel anxious and worried. Those are your emotions "practicing" in the present time for something that hasn't happened. Bring your thoughts back and focus on what is happening now. What is the reality in this moment? The same is true when thoughts take your mind to a painful event in the past. If you start feeling resentment, sorrow, etc.....these are your emotions practicing after the fact. So, reel your thoughts back from the past and focus on the current moment.

* In many situations, we want to believe it was the situation, itself, that triggered bad emotions in us. Actually, it is how we interpret the situation. (An example was given of a cashier throwing a receipt at you, the customer). You may experience negative thoughts about that situation, but it doesn't mean it is the true fact. Ask yourself, "How did I interpret it?" "What were my thoughts telling me?" If those thoughts were negative, then shift your perspective. Ask yourself, "What is another way I can see this?" Maybe the cashier was having a terrible day, maybe she was exhausted, maybe she didn't intend to sling the receipt at you. This is you choosing how you want to interpret that situation, thereby, maintaining your emotions.

* Accept your current reality. It does not mean you approve. Make effective choices based on your reality.

* Separate the feelings from the actual facts.

* Create space between the "urge" and your choice.














Last edited by sandi2; 07/13/18 08:21 PM.

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very valuable information. Ive been doing a lot of YouTube in bed as i wind down each day. I think its helped to hear encouraging and healing materials just before bed. It puts my mind n the right place, if i fall asleep with the right attitude.
I never have or recall my dreams, but there were occasions during The Dark Ages (Oct 17' - May 2018) where I was having nightmares. For someone who almost never dreams or recalls them, this was frightening as hell.

I was just reading TXHubbys stuff that had been posted on Fmly1st's post by AS.
Really good stuff there as well.

I just asked SIL to watch S3 for 30min tonight so i can get back on my excersize routines.

I have still been in a great MOOD all day, emotionally speaking, but have been having to fight back the "Twisty Tummy" and other symptoms of anxiety, which i have no clue as to why they have arisen today. I am thinking perhaps because WIFE has texted me the last 3 days in a row, and not today. Perhaps my body is just trying to prepare me for the other shoe to drop so to speak.
I notice these are the same physical sensations that have accompanied my decline into depression and "Spinning out" in the past.
A few weeks ago, i think the symptoms/feelings i am experiencing would have had me really down in the dumps by this point of that day.

Today, these feelings have just made me want to work out, and delve into my writing projects.
i can feel a backdrop of Anger today as well, but its very diminished and feels distant.

I just finally see how......small and petty she can be.
I am so much bigger than this.
I will be 31 on Saturday.
I AM YOUNG.
in 5 years this will be a drop in the bucket. Just the pain i had to go through to gain the most wonderful thing in my life.

S3!!!!!!!!!!


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Join me. In Valhalla my fellow DB Warriors.

Link to new thread - http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2801143&#Post2801143


M: 35, EX-W: 3, S:4
All Divorce Proceedings Complete - Oct 18
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2 Major breakups.
2 Rebounds
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