M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Just an update: Wife continues to demonstrate consideration and respect. She seems to be moving closer. I am cognizant and apprehensive. I am aware that it may be temporary, it might even just be my exaggerated imagination. When it is appropriate she will make it clear and easy.
I would like to share for the benefit of others going through this. Even when things are looking like they are on the uptick, sometimes this whole thing can get you down. Yesterday I was taking it easy, just relaxing and I started to feel a bit sad. Not the dark pit of despair that I felt before when I felt like life wouldn't go on and that I had this big miss that I needed to fix. lol
I laugh because I feel so much different now. Detachment is the difference. The whole concept is difficult to explain and oh so important. So important to consistently maintain. Fear is the obstacle. It is like a diet. You are afraid to start. You have to commit. You will struggle at points. You will slip. Just recommit and get back to it. Drop the rope. WWs will notice and may test you. Know that it is a test and not total and complete Recon. Guard your heart.
So when most of the time I am self-assured and confident lately, there are still bouts of weakness. Don't show it. It will pass.
Get back on that diet.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Drop the rope mean letting go. Let them go. Stop controlling or trying to control your W. Stop allowing them to have control over you and your well being. Detach, become unenmeshed within your MR Differentiation of Self, your thoughts, and your feeling are separate, and separate from who you are. Don't allow the thoughts and feelings of others define who you really are. Their thoughts and feelings are self serving at best.
Ws test, see the test and pass the test. The right answer is that you are a strong man and will be in control of yourself. Those that try to control others do it mostly out of fear.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
So last night I initiated a trip to see fireworks. I thought it was the masculine thing to do and then after I wondered if it is pursuing. Or perhaps testing the waters since I have seen a change. Either way, whatever.
D19 was off with her friends, D15 went to a movie.
We picked up a 6 pack and went to the place to sit and watch.
Before the show, W opened up about the idiots at her work and I listened and validated some, but soon became annoyed with the rant. Besides, I was preoccupied with watching the entitled young parents and their misbehaving kids. We were on a golf course with yellow tape to limit access and protect the course and let's just say that some people don't think rules apply to them or their broods. I really didn't pay my full attention to her gripes, but I could only imagine how in the past our roles may have been reversed.
I simply intended to enjoy the fireworks. The lights and sounds and oh yea, people watch.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
One of the things that I have had trouble with and still continue to have trouble with is being in the present. When someone speaks put your full effort into not just the words that are being said but moreso the feelings behind the words that are spoken to you . I hope this helps. Cheers!
M51 w50 T-20Yrs M-16Yrs S15- mad at W for not trying and giving up 1 Awesum dog BD 10/31/17 separate rooms 02/08/18 wife moved out 05/17/18
Lol, I was in the present. I was enjoying and observing what was going on in front of me. I just got tired of listening to a rant about what happened earlier and decided not to suffer the story. Wolf, if you struggle, you should try practicing mindfulness. There are countless videos and books. I had to look into it a while back to help break the bad habit of rumination. I think it helped.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
RR my thought was you needed to put more emphasis on being in the present with your wife. Listen intently-Isn't that what a good partner does? Although she may rant- she may need you there to just listen. Not putting your attention on other less important issues. My 2 cents.
M51 w50 T-20Yrs M-16Yrs S15- mad at W for not trying and giving up 1 Awesum dog BD 10/31/17 separate rooms 02/08/18 wife moved out 05/17/18
Why not just say that I didn't spend enough time listening and validating?
How would you know if it was enough? I did say that I listened and validated.
"Isn't that what a good partner does? In the event that this wasn't rhetorical, I going to answer. Yes, that is what a good partner does, to a point. At some point, it can become excessive and feels inequitable. At that point, the partnership may feel one-sided and it is imposable to be a good partner in an inequitable partnership.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
I guess the silver lining is I now recognize these things without taking it too personally. It is what it is and I have control over how I allow it to affect me.
I also have made great strides on being in the present. If I attend an event or even witness a beautiful cloud formation as I did this evening, I am better able to soak it in. For years I was too stressed or worried or just preoccupied with whatever was coming next to ever really stop and smell the roses.
Amazing what you can accomplish when you sense of self, comes under attack.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
So I'm in a bit of a crossroads here. I just went to breakfast with W. Both Ds didn't want to go. It was pleasant, nothing special. But immediately after returning W knocks on my MBR door and says she is running down to her office to get some paperwork ready because a new hire is coming on in the morning. I replied "Okay". I sometimes think she does these things to restore trust. Ws office is only like 3 miles away. She has a work friendship with a younger guy that is not her type but gets brought up too often in stories. I have expressed concern and W has assured me that there is nothing inappropriate. It is a small office and who knows?
So my dilemma, Do I drive down there and look for her car at the office? Most of the time I don't feel suspicious, but every now and then...
When a bond of trust has been abused and the proper steps to repair the damage are not taken, I expect this will continue to haunt me.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
What do you have to gain by doing that? All you will know for sure is where her car is at. If her car is there, she could be doing exactly what she said by herself or she could be there hanging out with the guy co worker. If her car is not there, she could be somewhere else with OM or she could have just decided she wanted a coffee or something. In the end, the only thing you're going to know is if the car was there or not. And if she catches you checking up on her, she'll make you out to be the bad guy for stalking her. I'd just let it go...
Me: 38 W:31 Kids: S16(mine from previous R), D10, S9, S4 M: 10 years T:12 years BD:Jan 3, 2018 W moved out: Apr 13,2018 Filed for D: Jun 2018 D final: Sep 2019
I laugh because I feel so much different now. Detachment is the difference. The whole concept is difficult to explain and oh so important. So important to consistently maintain. Fear is the obstacle. It is like a diet. You are afraid to start. You have to commit. You will struggle at points. You will slip. Just recommit and get back to it. Drop the rope.
You wrote this less than a week ago. It's good advice. Take it...
Me: 38 W:31 Kids: S16(mine from previous R), D10, S9, S4 M: 10 years T:12 years BD:Jan 3, 2018 W moved out: Apr 13,2018 Filed for D: Jun 2018 D final: Sep 2019
I know, I know. I did call and ask if she fed the dog. Our dog is old and not in good health and will probably die soon. I tell you this to understand that the call was not out of place. W answered the phone immediately which is a good sign.
Posting here was the right move.
Occasional suspicion is expected and typical. What I do with it is up to me.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
As this week starts, I am reflecting back on this weekend. For weeks now I have maintained a healthy detachment and the results are as expected. Good. Maintain a centered and confident self has reminded me of who I was before M.
But it has come to my attention that this shift in attitude is not 100% solidified. Meaning that it is still possible to slip back into past thought patterns. I'll assume that this will get better with time and the fact that I recognize it, is another step in the right direction.
What makes it all the more difficult is the time I spend with W.
I sometimes fantasize about a life living alone. My kids visiting and lower stress. Becoming this eligible bachelor and after taking a break even pursuing other women. It doesn't seem all that bad. I guess this is a healthy part of detachment. Although I do, I struggle to imagine dating W.
I don't know that I have read about others expressing these feeling. If so I would like to hear. I also welcome any thought on this.
As I live in Limbo. I have been reading and watching videos about masculine and feminine dynamics. I find it helpful in understanding what traits I have embraced in my M that ultimately make us men unattractive to our Ss. I won't go so far as to say I had NGS but I believe that we morph into something that hardly resembles our pre-MR self and doesn't look anything like what the W was attracted to in the first place. Nor does it feel as comfortable to me.
As CS&N once sang: It's been a long time comin' It's goin' to be a long time gone
As I live in this state of limbo I occasionally think that it is my turn to take action. Force a reaction. It sounds like control, right?
I slip in my detached autonomy because she is still around. Still around only now extending the respect and consideration that she withheld for so many years. The only thing missing is the affection and intimacy.
I wonder if I should pull further back?
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
I sometimes fantasize about a life living alone. My kids visiting and lower stress. Becoming this eligible bachelor and after taking a break even pursuing other women. It doesn't seem all that bad. I guess this is a healthy part of detachment. Although I do, I struggle to imagine dating W.
I don't know that I have read about others expressing these feeling. If so I would like to hear. I also welcome any thought on this.
RR, yes I have had that fantasy/vision many times since separating from my W. It is the supposed light at the end of this long tunnel I currently find myself within. And yes, dating the W thought is a struggle for me as well. I don't believe it's because I could/would not, but rather almost like in the bachelor scenario there's just no place that a previous relationship fits in it if that makes any sense.
Originally Posted By: RR17
As I live in Limbo. I have been reading and watching videos about masculine and feminine dynamics. I find it helpful in understanding what traits I have embraced in my M that ultimately make us men unattractive to our Ss. I won't go so far as to say I had NGS but I believe that we morph into something that hardly resembles our pre-MR self and doesn't look anything like what the W was attracted to in the first place.
I've been watching videos/reading just like you and while I know many things I could have done to improve myself, I do also find myself wondering if perhaps ladies have an unrealistic expectation on pre and post male attractiveness in an MR. I'm not trying to get men off the hook at all for being responsible to keep doing all they can in the MR, but over many years surely initial feelings/attractions will recede for both parties, I would like to believe replaced by a much stronger bond and love. Hopefully my thoughts on this make some sense.
I've been watching videos/reading just like you and while I know many things I could have done to improve myself, I do also find myself wondering if perhaps ladies have an unrealistic expectation on pre and post male attractiveness in an MR. I'm not trying to get men off the hook at all for being responsible to keep doing all they can in the MR, but over many years surely initial feelings/attractions will recede for both parties, I would like to believe replaced by a much stronger bond and love. Hopefully my thoughts on this make some sense.
I think the two are separate issues. I think men are lead to believe that their S wants them to embrace their feminine energy and this is counter to what they were attracted to initially. This deeper bond is what holds it together until she realizes what she is attracted to looks nothing like what H has become. The whole ILYBINILWY thing I believe pertains to attraction. Attraction is much more than physical looks. IMO
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Well, This just went down and I'm not sure how well I handled it.
So our family dog is in her last days. She is old and I think it is time. She has good days and bad days and the bad are becoming too frequent. W called me this afternoon to say she thought it was time. W went to her Bible study tonight and I stayed home with the dog. When she returned she came up to the MBR and we discussed the dog and plans. Then out of the blue, she tells me that BTW, she had made vacation plans at the beach for next week some 60 days ago and didn't think I should go.
Thrown in like some detail, this hit me like a ton of bricks. I told her that was fine but that when she plans and hits me with these things I feel like she is plotting behind my back. She apologized and although she could now see it that way, she didn't think of it at the time. I asked if she had hidden it as I hadn't heard the Ds discussing and wanted to know the depth of this secret plan. Anyway, I went into an explanation about how withholding info that affects another person was no different than a lie. About how I refused to continue to be friendly if I am expected to tolerate wondering what other plots and plans were going on behind my back. The conversation never reached an argument and she didn't dismissively walk out, as usual. The conversation just kind of came to a close and that was it.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
So I called to have the vet come out to euthanize our dog tomorrow. The saddest phone call I've ever made. I cried afterward for the first time in like 40 years. Even losing my father last November didn't bring a tear. A lot has built up and I guess I was due.
So something my W said during our discussion last night has stuck with me. She said, "I definitely don't feel cared for".
Not sure what to do with that but since I'm to really listen to what W is saying. Any insight is appreciated.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Likely a manipulation attempt. I'd ignore it for now. Your 180s will take care of that eventually.
Sorry about the dog. I know the sting of that many many times over. The joy they bring to our lives vastly outweighs the heartache of having to say goodbye. But it is never easy.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
ovrrnbw, seeing that the beach trip was an add-on and surprise to the discussion regarding the dog. I was angered and the details are a little blurred. We weren't shouting and such but I now recognize that I was mad. I think we were discussing the current dynamic in the home as well as how she might feel if the shoe were on the other foot. I often now feel like I have to explain these things that seem self-evident. She probably felt attacked and as Steve said it was a manipulation.
If so it was not the typical MO of passive aggressive dismissal.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
RR- Sorry about your dog. Having a strong bond with mine- I fear having to go thru what you are experiencing now. As for your W maybe the sitch with your dog has changed temporarily changed the dynamic between you and W. Putting you both more on edge. Hope it works out for you none the less. Blessings!
M51 w50 T-20Yrs M-16Yrs S15- mad at W for not trying and giving up 1 Awesum dog BD 10/31/17 separate rooms 02/08/18 wife moved out 05/17/18
Thanks, everyone. Sad day here and I'm sure tomorrow will be too.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
In your case talking about the dog and maybe your sadness
They have to shift attention back to themselves
Remember they are the center of the show
How dare you inject yourself and your feelings into it
And guess what
That one comment she made
Made you stop and think all about her and what did she mean by that
It worked
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Yes, it sounds like she is wanting to bring the attention back to her. I understand the sitch with your dog. A couple years ago, based on a Google search, I thought my dog had a brain tumor. Luckily that wasn't the case but I cried and cried. I completely understand. Pets are family.
Sad day here. We did the right thing and everyone was kind to each other.
Thank LW, Steve, and Gordie, I think you are correct. "I definitely don't feel cared for" is an irrefutable counter to my accusation regarding her beach trip planning.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Thanks again, all you well wishers. This is the first time I have ever had to make the decision to euthanize. Of course, the poor thing perked up around 24hrs. the vet was scheduled to arrive.
Thinking back, although not intentional, the Lighthouse was exactly what I was. Thanks, LoneWlf for the reminder. I also showed a vulnerable side that none of my family had ever seen. Nor that I had experienced in a very long time.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Just a quick update. W and D heading to the beach. I've not expressed any opinions. I'm kind of looking forward to having the house to myself. I continue to do a lot of reading. W continues to seem to enjoy our time together. She enjoys my listening while I keep most all my business to myself.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
I'm kind of looking forward to having the house to myself.
GOOD! I've got to say, I have read a hundred comments from LBS's that they've detached and not believed a single one of them. You know how I can tell when someone is REALLY detaching? They make statements like yours.
AnotherStander, I totally agree. Detachment is not something that I understood until I experienced it. And I can't say I've mastered it. Initially, I thought it was just a version of "going dark" or pulling back to get the WW to take notice.
It is something all relationships require to thrive. It is when we become too enmeshed that we become too reliant on another for the way we feel. Unhealthy. This applies to all relationships, IMO. To borrow from another, we should love in a way that each other feels free. Steve85 has often reminded us that we are to believe her actions more than their words. It's easy to try to decipher every little conversation while we forget that often they are struggling as well and words can be nothing more than defense mechanisms to combat whatever pain or struggle the W is experiencing. A way to push back. This in no way justifies their actions. I think I started to figure it out when I grew more comfortable with the idea that life without this MR wasn't the end of the world and in fact had its own benefits.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Not much new here. W and Ds came back from the beach. No kissing, but W gave me a big hug when they were leaving and I initiated one when they returned. FWIW
All has been good and clam except for D19's blow up when I was explaining to W that somehow we had blown through our shared data plan and that it could possibly be a setting on D15s new phone. D19 is very strong-willed like her father and a typical teen that thinks she knows it all. Disrespectful outbursts insue.
Anyway, later it dawned on me that the argument may not even be about the data at all, but possibly the D19 hearing me speak to W and in her mind, gain control over the mother she has had in her palm for the last week. A power struggle if you will. One of my pet peeves has been how W remains passive when Ds show disrespect. In the past, W has said that she didn't feel it was her place to get involved. IMO, it is an excuse to remain impartial and nonconfrontational. I have said that I would never alow them to talk to their mother that way. This time I expressed my frustration and stated that I thought she should say something to D19. She agreed that she would. I have my doubts. People-Pleasers are the worst.
Later I explained my theory regarding this power struggle. W said, "Well, nobody controls me." I agreed. I also asked her to consider the dynamic.
Points is, W is making major changes in the respect department. Not just in regard to Ds or lip service to avoid confrontation. But in regards to letting me know what is going on and taking me into consideration (most of the time) when decisions are being made. Asking if I need anything at the store etc. Treating me better than a third wheel that gets in the way of The 3 Amigas. We watch movies that I pick out and W seems to genuinely enjoy my company. She seems to look forward to these intentional times together.
But still no intimacy. I have stopped trying to initiating. She takes some measures as to not taught me. If you know what I mean. And that is fine. Not optimal but I'll survive.
What I'm wondering is if this is some kind of control dynamic in its self.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Happy Friday you Centered, Confident and Detached DBers!
Here's a story that I want to chronicle as well as I hope can help others.
So this Wednesday W said she wanted to go to the Costco after work. Based on past experience with this poor communicator I took it to mean that W wanted me to join. You see I am expected to draw intended conclusions based on abstract verbal illustrations. I had been intentionally absent the couple evenings before and why not?
So I make a point to be home as W is getting home and ask about a plan. Big mistake. You see D15 had requested W perform some errands during the prior scheduled event. Fine with me. I ask what time do you want to go to Costco? She replies with the other errands and this and that. I say, "That's not the question I ask". Anyway you get the picture and things escalated quickly and she said "What I'm not doing is this" and stormed out the door with D15. Fine with me.
So I intend to drop the issue and return to the bliss that is our cohabitation as friendly roommates. Next morning she is acting suspiciously. Well, this got to me and I checked Ws phone when she took a shower. I saw a text with a W of some friends of ours regarding the recent demise of our family dog. Friend asked if we were going to get another and my W replied "No, I am trying to get folks out of my house" laughing emoji
Well, this pissed me off and contrary to my best judgment, I reacted instead of responding. I know, bad RR17. I confronted W and as expected she said: "what are you doing with my phone." I responded, "I'm reacting to suspicious behavior". W said she was talking about getting the kids out.
So I set a boundary. "If you think it's okay to disrespect me to our friends, you will regret it" "If you think that our current status grants license to start up your next little something, it does not." Seems self-evident, but WWs don't think like normal people. Once again she assured me that there was nothing going on and left for work.
One last bad decision on my part. I had to send on more text message while she was on her way to work. "Just so I can understand your perspective. I don't deserve respect but you deserve to be trusted. Is that correct?" As expected she didn't reply.
Well, I resorted to that closure and had no intention of continuing any type of punishment. I dropped it.
For the last 2 days, W has been pouting around when I am present. Not cold shoulder, but woe is me, pouting. This morning I told her a story about her 85 year old dad asking for plumbing advice and how I felt he was getting personally involved in the project and MIL might want to watch the purse strings. I can't stand contractor that take advantage of old people. W listened and agreed. Still blue and pouty all the while. Me? Not reacting to her state.
So, if your still here. IMO, W is now trying to control me with her "feel sorry for me" manipulation. The "No intimacy" control didn't seem to work so W in on to other techniques.
I am not perfect and I still make mistakes, but I have also reached a point of detachment where I can see what the intended dynamic probably is and rise above it. I hope others find this helpful and upon finding themselves in a situation where their W try to control through manipulation, perhaps they will remember this post and prevail.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
RR17, I had started to respond to your prior update but I was on my phone and it wasn't going well. LOL (Too many typos.)
However, we are past that. Yes WWs like to use lots of manipulations to their advantage to control. Your radar is dead on with that.
However, let me caution you on the overly sensitive LBS thing. Because this is something I am seeing more and more with LBSs. Believe it or not, sometimes the problem with something the WAS/WS does or says is with the LBS, not the WAS. What do I mean? A comment said in jest (I am trying to get people out of my house!) is taken the wrong way due to the sitch. If your W had said that and your marriage was perfect, then you would never have taken that comment the way you did. This is why it is important to take a minute before reacting. Because a LBS' initial reaction is USUALLY the wrong one. At least until they get really good at DBing and detachment.
Now I know you already have admitted that the actions above were not good. So I won't lecture you. However, you had gotten to a place where you thought you were detached. Detached means you wouldn't have looked at her phone. Nor sent the text afterward that you sent. I know respect is rightfully a big thing when dealing with a WW. However I don't see how a potentially innocent joke in jest on a private text exchange is the same as open disrespect. Open disrespect was her storming out of the house with D15 after the escalation. To me that was worse than a joking text to another woman.
Just some things to consider moving forward. We all struggle and make mistakes. The key is to learn from them and do better from that point forward.
Upward and onward my friend!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Steve, all point well taken. And hindsight is 20/20. I tell my mistakes as well as successes if it seems appropriate.
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However, let me caution you on the overly sensitive LBS thing. Because this is something I am seeing more and more with LBSs. Believe it or not, sometimes the problem with something the WAS/WS does or says is with the LBS, not the WAS. What do I mean? A comment said in jest (I am trying to get people out of my house!) is taken the wrong way due to the sitch. If your W had said that and your marriage was perfect, then you would never have taken that comment the way you did. This is why it is important to take a minute before reacting. Because a LBS' initial reaction is USUALLY the wrong one. At least until they get really good at DBing and detachment.
No excuse, but one of my challenges with this forum is it is almost impossible to express all the details or dynamic in any given sitch. Example: This family friend W has a history of being anti-marriage. She would like nothing more than to take my W under her wing and team up against the bad men. I've seen her do it. W know this and we have distanced our selves from them because of tampering during W's A, years ago. Get it?
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Steve, all point well taken. And hindsight is 20/20. I tell my mistakes as well as successes if it seems appropriate.
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However, let me caution you on the overly sensitive LBS thing. Because this is something I am seeing more and more with LBSs. Believe it or not, sometimes the problem with something the WAS/WS does or says is with the LBS, not the WAS. What do I mean? A comment said in jest (I am trying to get people out of my house!) is taken the wrong way due to the sitch. If your W had said that and your marriage was perfect, then you would never have taken that comment the way you did. This is why it is important to take a minute before reacting. Because a LBS' initial reaction is USUALLY the wrong one. At least until they get really good at DBing and detachment.
No excuse, but one of my challenges with this forum is it is almost impossible to express all the details or dynamic in any given sitch. Example: This family friend W has a history of being anti-marriage. She would like nothing more than to take my W under her wing and team up against the bad men. I've seen her do it. W know this and we have distanced our selves from them because of tampering during W's A, years ago. Get it?
Very solid point. It is true that it is hard to give full context to everything. Though I do remember you mentioning this friend before.
Even with that context, I think you probably shouldn't have confronted over that. If nothing else now she will be more diligent about covering her tracks.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Very solid point. It is true that it is hard to give full context to everything. Though I do remember you mentioning this friend before.
Even with that context, I think you probably shouldn't have confronted over that. If nothing else now she will be more diligent about covering her tracks
True, I shouldn't have. Most of the time I don't feel the need to look. Sometimes something happens and I just want to know. Confronting her is another thing. This pissed me off.
Her explanation seemed honest. I put her on the spot and she's not quick like that. As you said it was the context and the characters involved. I don't regret doing it. If she gets more diligent, so be it. If anything the event has inspired movement. Limbo gets old. And things were getting too comfortable in this new normal. This adds perspective and a segway for me to pull further away. I am watching a movie with W as I type. lol The pouty persona has all but gone. I have gained more distance. During the fight, she accused me of not listening to her. I said "S*&%, all I do is listen." This seemed to cause pause. I believe she realized that I have been listening and confirming. But who knows? Tomorrow night I will be MIA.
Steve, don't think I don't appreciate your observations. I do. Even if it wasn't the intended point of the story. I can always use an honest constructive opinion. Thank you.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
RR-thanks for sharing your experiences with us. It may become valuable someday should we need it. Blessings
Thanks for your continued support.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Okay, gang, it's been nearly a month but I figured it's time to check in.
Limbo is still in place but with modifications. We still make time to watch movies together a couple times a week. I pick out the movie and for the most part, the time is held sacred. Meaning it is intentional and interruptions are limited. I usually cook. Like I often did when we were dating. But no expectations. No intimacy. No R talks until today.
This morning. after a couple months of no sex and recent positive vibes, I decided to try initiating. I changed my approach and prepared myself for rejection. And rejection is what I got. But it was different. She took the opportunity to start the R talk. I listened. Only interrupting to seek clarity. W talks in vague abstracts that she assumes that the listener just has to understand what she means. Like assembling a puzzle with missing pieces. At one point she explained how her life had changed and that she felt that mine had remained the same. With a light-hearted wit I explained all the things that had been taken from me and low and behold, she listened without simply dismissing or looking for a slight inaccuracy to discredit my statements. I felt heard. W also explained how her life had not turned out like she planned and how she was aware that other people had it a whole lot worse. She referenced a story about D19s classmate that recently died of cancer. Sensing that W felt guilty for her feelings. I got off track and suggested that we have to practice gratitude. And how it didn't always come organically and why it was called practice. I know, I know. Old, problem-solving habits die hard. Anyway.. I did get a little preachy when I pointed out how some of the dynamics in our M/R had improved, like the detachment and gained autonomy in both of us. No I didn't divulge any DB secretes. And W agreed. I have often felt that W assumed that my lack of trust in her was some sort of hold-back that I was harboring, a weapon of sorts to use against her when I needed. In an ongoing effort to explain that this trust-deficiency was not by choice but because W hadn't done the work to restore it. I reminded her of a recent time when she said she was at Bible Study with her women's group. Well, when she got home and said hi, I realized that she wasn't wearing a bra. Fancy that? If I know anything about this woman it is that she doesn't go out in public braless. Well, without fully engaging my suspicious mind, I decided to dig a bit before defaulting to my imagination. I didn't just approach the obvious question, I guess for fear of starting a defensive fight or some lie. But, with some minor digging, I learned that that night's meeting was more of a social one and they went swimming at one of the girl's pools and she must have changed back into the clothes she wore over her one piece suit on the way there. A story I later confirmed with some snooping. I found out that at least some of these ladies were baptized, but W never mentioned. Well, I explained this example to W during our R talk today. I explained it from my perspective and how it could easily and reasonably cause suspicion that I had to overcome in spite of my feelings. Low and behold, she apologized without hesitation. This is huge. She could have very well dismissed or belittled the whole story. She did not.
W acknowledged enjoying these movies together. I don't dare call them a date. lol
Later I thanked her for feeling heard. She said the same. This is also an unusual and different reaction.
I sometimes feel like I have allowed things to slip into some dissatisfying New-Normal. I usually find a way to gain more space when this happens. If you've followed my threads you will know that I am adamant about a proper reconciliation as defined here in this group. I have not changed on this point.
Anyway, that is where things are. I welcome any questions or feedback. You guys, even the ones that no longer reply to my threads, have all been a big part of my journey, and for that I thank you.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
RR - sounds to me that although things are not moving at a rapid pace. Things are still moving forward. For this I commend you. It seems like she still continues to enjoy time with you with the movies. You also mentioned that you felt heard- another positive. Let's celebrate these small victories with caution of having no future expectations. I too believe in not compromising in your proper reconciliation because if this is done hastily and wrong it is like building your house on a foundation of sand . Done with proper care to detail it will be a solid foundation on rock. Continue to move forward and be the lighthouse. Blessings!
M51 w50 T-20Yrs M-16Yrs S15- mad at W for not trying and giving up 1 Awesum dog BD 10/31/17 separate rooms 02/08/18 wife moved out 05/17/18
I sometimes feel like I have allowed things to slip into some dissatisfying New-Normal. I usually find a way to gain more space when this happens. If you've followed my threads you will know that I am adamant about a proper reconciliation as defined here in this group. I have not changed on this point.
Out of curiousity, what does that look like to you? The "proper reconciliation"? And more to the point how do you see it beginning?
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I had hoped to post a link but I am unable to search back more than 3 months. This I copied this months ago from a Sandi2 post. I agree with these things. Remember this journey started for me nearly 5 years ago with an EA and I allowed it to slip into a miserable new normal. If you guys don't seek many of these, I expect you will end up back here again.
Proper reconciliation:
Quote
This list has some of the things the WW will need to do in order to reconcile, honestly and completely, with her H. If you see something that needs to be added, feel free.
These are in no special order.
1). Consequences! And taking a hit with hard, maybe a painful loss of some kind. 2). Realizing the connection between her decisions with the consequences/loss. 3). Accepting responsibility for her decisions...and for every loss, and every hurt she caused those she loves and who loves her. 4). Accepting and dealing with the consequences, without blaming anyone but herself. 5). Making a conscious choice to end her wayward direction and turn around. 6). Seeking guidance and/or spiritual counsel to guide her in how to cleanse her heart of the wrong attitudes, selfcenterness, resentment, rebellion.......whatever she carries that is unhealthy. 7). To be remorseful. If necessary, even seek spiritual help, pray, whatever......to feel remorse for the destruction her decisions and feelings has caused her H. She has to feel true remorse in order to emotionally reconcile and heal properly. 8). To completely forgive her H for everything in the past. To release the blame,anger, and hurt she held throughout their M. 9). To be wiling to do whatever it takes for the MR to heal. 10). To agree and cooperate with the H's choice of transparency plan (accountability), sending a NC letter, having any medical tests, ending any friendships out of his request, (and of course, any contact with OM), place of employment, giving him requested information, attending MC, or anything else the H may request in order to ensure the success of their reconciliation, and the safety of the MR. 11). Accept/agree, without resentment, that she is in no position to give her H any "conditions" to her going back into the MR. And, to accept without resentment, that the greatest level of work in piecing the M back together, must come from her. 12). To accept that it will take time for her healthy emotions to be restored. To realize and accept she cannot measure the success of their progress by her feelings. 13). To be informed, and accept, that she must go through withdrawals from her AP, and could experience depression. She needs to understand this is normal, and not a sign that she will have never have feelings for H. 13). And the hardest one of all.........learn to forgive herself.
Keep in mind, these things will not all come about at one time. Neither will she be able to know without someone guiding her. It is really important she has help or coaching from an unbiased source who is pro-marriage and is familiar with piecing after an affair.
How do I see this starting? With a commitment.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
RR - sounds to me that although things are not moving at a rapid pace. Things are still moving forward. For this I commend you. It seems like she still continues to enjoy time with you with the movies. You also mentioned that you felt heard- another positive. Let's celebrate these small victories with caution of having no future expectations. I too believe in not compromising in your proper reconciliation because if this is done hastily and wrong it is like building your house on a foundation of sand . Done with proper care to detail it will be a solid foundation on rock. Continue to move forward and be the lighthouse. Blessings!
I couldn't agree more with the foundation built on sand. I not celebrating anything yet. Fact is, I feel like I am settling for less than I deserve. To say this is not happening rapidly is an understatement. She has been out of the MBR for just over a year now. I often wonder if it were financially feasible if she would be gone. I'm tired of feeling the threat.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
I had hoped to post a link but I am unable to search back more than 3 months. This I copied this months ago from a Sandi2 post. I agree with these things. Remember this journey started for me nearly 5 years ago with an EA and I allowed it to slip into a miserable new normal. If you guys don't seek many of these, I expect you will end up back here again.
Proper reconciliation:
Quote
This list has some of the things the WW will need to do in order to reconcile, honestly and completely, with her H. If you see something that needs to be added, feel free.
These are in no special order.
1). Consequences! And taking a hit with hard, maybe a painful loss of some kind. 2). Realizing the connection between her decisions with the consequences/loss. 3). Accepting responsibility for her decisions...and for every loss, and every hurt she caused those she loves and who loves her. 4). Accepting and dealing with the consequences, without blaming anyone but herself. 5). Making a conscious choice to end her wayward direction and turn around. 6). Seeking guidance and/or spiritual counsel to guide her in how to cleanse her heart of the wrong attitudes, selfcenterness, resentment, rebellion.......whatever she carries that is unhealthy. 7). To be remorseful. If necessary, even seek spiritual help, pray, whatever......to feel remorse for the destruction her decisions and feelings has caused her H. She has to feel true remorse in order to emotionally reconcile and heal properly. 8). To completely forgive her H for everything in the past. To release the blame,anger, and hurt she held throughout their M. 9). To be wiling to do whatever it takes for the MR to heal. 10). To agree and cooperate with the H's choice of transparency plan (accountability), sending a NC letter, having any medical tests, ending any friendships out of his request, (and of course, any contact with OM), place of employment, giving him requested information, attending MC, or anything else the H may request in order to ensure the success of their reconciliation, and the safety of the MR. 11). Accept/agree, without resentment, that she is in no position to give her H any "conditions" to her going back into the MR. And, to accept without resentment, that the greatest level of work in piecing the M back together, must come from her. 12). To accept that it will take time for her healthy emotions to be restored. To realize and accept she cannot measure the success of their progress by her feelings. 13). To be informed, and accept, that she must go through withdrawals from her AP, and could experience depression. She needs to understand this is normal, and not a sign that she will have never have feelings for H. 13). And the hardest one of all.........learn to forgive herself.
Keep in mind, these things will not all come about at one time. Neither will she be able to know without someone guiding her. It is really important she has help or coaching from an unbiased source who is pro-marriage and is familiar with piecing after an affair.
How do I see this starting? With a commitment.
The reason I ask is because rarely starts with a big bang. Usually it's a whole bunch of baby steps. Most people don't even realize they are in R until weeks or months after she took the first step towards it. So if you're looking for that one grand moment where she has a come to the truth moment, then you'll be sorely disappointed. Take this lady interaction as a possible step. But.... be prepared for setbacks and for even smaller steps. Remember marathon not a sprint.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I understand. I also know that WW like to eat cake. I'm contemplating an ultimatum. Much as you have. Possibly by the end of the year. Steve, did you tell your wife she had till the end of 2018?
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
I understand. I also know that WW like to eat cake. I'm contemplating an ultimatum. Much as you have. Possibly by the end of the year. Steve, did you tell your wife she had till the end of 2018?
No I didn't tell her. The deadline was for me.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
It takes time RR. From a former WH, let me tell you it takes time. I understand your frustration but having done such a long journey...just a little bit more patience...
Stay strong RR
WW H(me): 53 W: 48 T: 27 M: 22 S: 18 Piecing since 03/2016 Saw the light in the storm
I plan to give it much consideration before moving forward. There comes a time when enough is enough. When, is the question. I know that if I do it, I must be ready to follow through. I read a story from an MC's personal experience. Her LBH gave her until the end of the year to get it together and she said it worked. Obviously, there is a risk.
She seemed to think that regardless of the inevitable, it expedited things.
Limbo feels like settling. So-called small signs of progress are seen as miss signals. Are you reading too much into it? Is she playing you or testing? Who can really tell?
All of it goes against this regained Alpha Centered Male that I feel I am rediscovering. Right now, if we were just first dating, I would kick this one to the curb.
Last edited by RR17; 08/22/1807:03 PM.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Limbo feels like settling. So-called small signs of progress are seen as miss signals. Are you reading too much into it? Is she playing you or testing? Who can really tell?
That's why you need to see consistent behavior over a long period of time before you trust it!
RR17 I recently went back and read my threads. You gave some really good advice. Step back from your sitch and try to view it objectively. You have really good instincts for this stuff so try to apply this instincts.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Thanks, Steve. lol, I think instinct is always easier when it's not your own sitch.
Understand that I haven't made up my mind yet. But It's been a very long time.
Trust? That's a luxury this MR can't afford.
During a recent fight. Yea, I participated and the good news it both recovered quickly. A lot of ugly things were said. I accused W of not doing the things necessary to restore my trust. Play a stupid game, get a stupid prize. W said that's because it looked like getting back together. I pointed out that not changing passwords or lying about them, didn't look like getting back together. Anyway, the fact is I can't trust what I see or hear.
I will say that venting here and getting the feedback from you all has made me take inventory of what is a trend in the MR and take pause.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
RR - I see you are in a tough spot. I kinda feel the same way now after seeing my W not attractive and not having those pitter patter heart moments. It became more like - blah!. It is these moments I feel we need to step away from our sitch and look at it objectively. Understanding the ramifications and the finality of these major decisions. After fully analyzing and understanding the out comes. With a clear head and a clear conscious should we proceed with caution. My prayers are with you buddy!Blessings!
M51 w50 T-20Yrs M-16Yrs S15- mad at W for not trying and giving up 1 Awesum dog BD 10/31/17 separate rooms 02/08/18 wife moved out 05/17/18
Okay, in an effort to focus on the progress, I have a little occurrence to journal.
This morning while walking downstairs I found a receipt in the foyer. I picked it up and it was from a liquor store about 12 miles north of us. A direction none of us goes as we live in the city and this was from the burbs. This receipt was for a bottle of gin and paid for with an Amex card, dated 10:30am 8/23, just the previous day. Now we don't have an amex and unless W has a company card I have no idea who's it could be. W had a work social function after work but was home by 7:30pm. As you can imagine all sorts of scenarios flashing through my head. We do have a house guest. D19 had a girlfriend from college fly down to stay a week. Those two had a big day doing touristy things in the city, south of the liquor store. Hmmm?
Well, I scan the receipt as it seemed prudent. W was getting ready for work. I took it to her as unaccusative as possible. She looked at it and seemed puzzled as well. W hardly drinks and doesn't drink gin. Anyway, I walk away and start dabbling in work while drinking coffee. A sign of growth on my part. Some 10 min. latter W comes into my home office and says in a sincere voice." I just want you to know it wasn't mine. It didn't dawn on me at first, but I can imagine how this might look." I thanked her. I believe her. If she were lying or covering up, I believe she would have played down the mystery and been mad and defensive. Instead, she was humble and understanding. I thanked her. We discussed the mystery some more and she said she will question D19. I also added how I understood how it must feel being the target of suspicion when you don't deserve it. I also pointed out how I resented being haunted by suspicion. I don't even have to go looking. She validated. So could she be lying and just getting better at acting? Sure. Could a friend have picked up a bottle from the burbs for some sort of skip work liaison and somehow she ended up with a receipt? I guess so.
But right now, I chose to believe her. 20+ years experience with this person, including catching her in an A, tells me this is not her lie. I also appreciate her understanding of my position. Empathy or Sympathy, I get confused. Anyway, something I feel she lacked in the past. Something I believed she couldn't fake while lying.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Even if she is lying it changes nothing. I suspect that after you've all been through she would know better than to leave evidence lying in the foyer. But regardless, it chances nothing either way. Just keep moving forward.Keep DBing. Lovingly detached, GAL, etc.
RR you've got this. The fact that she cared enough to come back and discuss it is pretty huge. It shows that deep down she cares. So just keep putting one foot in front of the other.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Hi RR. Sometimes is also hard for us (waywards/former waywards). To be clean of suspicions removes unwanted pressures. And remember that we live on high stress when being ww...our choice...yeah, it s@cks...
WW H(me): 53 W: 48 T: 27 M: 22 S: 18 Piecing since 03/2016 Saw the light in the storm
The more I have thought about this today, the more it is eating at me. Someone in my home had contact with someone shopping for gin at 10:30 yesterday morning.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
The more I have thought about this today, the more it is eating at me. Someone in my home had contact with someone shopping for gin at 10:30 yesterday morning.
I am probably the most anti-alcohol poster on this site. However, there are worse things they could have been looking for. Let it go.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I know that she didn't drive 16 miles to buy Gin. She doesn't drink Gin. It has very little to do with alcohol. Has to do with whom? You see, one more discovery and I am done. Finished.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
I know that she didn't drive 16 miles to buy Gin. She doesn't drink Gin. It has very little to do with alcohol. Has to do with whom? You see, one more discovery and I am done. Finished.
So you don't believe her? I thought you did. I am confused. Was it the D's friend or not?
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Steve85, I don't know what to believe. The only thing I know is that someone in my home had contact with someone that bought Gin on Thur morning. And nobody is admitting to it.
D friend flew into town and doesn't have a car. Besides she's 19 and doesn't know anyone here besides my D.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Well, sometimes you just don't get to know the truth.
Saturday, I guess I was wearing my feelings on my sleeve. W asked what was wrong. I told her that the whole receipt thing had been eating at me. She said I thought you believed me. I explained that at the time I did, but this is how things sometimes work when you have exhausted all logical explanations. W got defensive and I too defended my feelings. Then W just stopped and had this look of pain on her face. Neffer, I thought about what you said. The repercussions of infidelity are deep. Especially without proper R. Anyway, again I tend to believe her. W asked D19 and I even called the neighbor. You see we live in a townhouse and receive our mail through a slot in the door. Best I can figure is that the receipt belongs to a neighbor and blew near our unit. Someone may have slid it through the mail slot. This is all possible.
Anyway, I think it is important to report that even though we had an argument, me justifying my feelings and W feeling unjustly accused. BTW, I never accused her. Even with this less than happy exchange, we seemed to recover quickly. Who knows what the truth is? Either W is truly innocent or vastly improved her acting and lying skills. I have been able to move past it. I'm sure some here will say that I should have let it go in the beginning. Well, much like attraction, suspicion is an involuntary emotion. And if and when W pulls the last straw. I will be angry. If I had discovered some inappropriate liaison, it would be over. As I read stories from those that Ss have moved out and those that still cohabitate. I'm not sure being under the same roof is any better.
So back to limbo. W showing respect. I maintain a distance and focus on my missions and not the MR.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Hi RR. I understand what you mean. Having been on the other side, let me tell you that it´s hard for everybody. Just give time the chance to erode the sharpness.
Walk safe RR
WW H(me): 53 W: 48 T: 27 M: 22 S: 18 Piecing since 03/2016 Saw the light in the storm
Interesting update. I figured based on your posts that you were going to confront in some capacity. Glad it seems to have worked out well. The reason we advise against it is it can be the catalyst to destroy everything you've been working for.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Steve85, not addressing it could have been a catalyst as well.
When you are not willing to overlook anymore infidelity EA or PA, physical evidence like this is not something I could choose to ignore. It would have leaked out somewhere.
As for the advice? Even if I don't immediately or fully apply it, I most definitely take all of it into serious consideration. At the end of the day, it still shapes my decisions.
Thank you.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Quick update. Hope everyone is moving along without too much drama and pain. Holidays can escalate issues. Knowing and anticipating helps.
So all is well in Limbo Land. W continues to show love in her way. No affection, but Acts of Service, Respect, Quality Time are all apparent. As with most LBSs, I am slow to trust these signs. I do my thing. Validate and don't pursue. Lower my expectations. Limit engagement. Occasionally I will share a story, but mostly listening.
Intuition tells me I need to intentionally maintain a distance. Experience says this distance is appreciated and if there is ever a "loss" to be experienced, I'm not sure I am heading in the right direction. Thoughts?
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Things are complicated when trust is broken and a relationship is damaged
And it takes time to heal
A long time
Take your time
Trust your instincts
You built walls of self protection around your heart
And she did too
If reconciliation is in the cards
You will only dismantle them when you trust it is safe to do so
And she will too
Tricky thing is this may not happen at the same pace
Take your time
And if you are unsure of something or what to do
Pause
And the answer will come to you
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Thanks. Gordie and neffer, do I trust my instinct or do pause? lol
Problem is I am growing very tired of the Waiting Game. Instinct sometimes tells me to pull the plug on this rodeo. I have always been a fairly decisive person. This feels unnatural. When I post on here, I do see the progress. Kind of like counting your blessings or focusing on gratefulness. On the other hand, when I ponder the future I often think about a future without W. And I'm okay with that. Fact is I want an MR that looks very different than this one has in the past. I'm tired of hold-backs, mysterious communication puzzles, dismissive conflict resolution. I think it is healthy that I recognize and am no longer willing to tolerate this type of behavior.
"The Waiting Game in Limbo Land" that is the title of this chapter of my life.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Real standing starts when you are strong enough to walk away
The feeling of the LBS to want to walk away is real
Good news is you have healed from b d
And now are strong enough
So you have the power
And a big decision to make
For big decisions
I suggest pause
What you feel today may be different tomorrow
Or next week
Or next month
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Well, I'm trying something new. I have to be trying something because not trying makes me feel stuck and unhappy. So with that said I am writing to take inventory of the positive things that I notice.
Yesterday afternoon D19 who returns to school in less than 2 weeks decided to paint some artwork for her room at college. She did it out on the patio and proceeded to use my grill as a table for the oil paintings to dry. Even though the chance was low, I pointed out to D19 that it may rain. She checked her phone and announced that there was zero percent chance of rain. Half hour later and it is coming down in buckets. D19 is in the bath. I point out to W that D19 has used my beloved 20 year old grill to hold the paintings, and hopefully I will be able to get the oil paint off. W shows empathy. Now it's important to note that I said this in a calm matter of fact way. In the past, when things were tense and an unhealthy dynamic existed, I might have embellished on the potential mess. I think this counts as progress in my camp. So, untypical of W, she grabs an umbrella and heads out to mitigate damages. I am surprised as this is out of her nature and like many Ws doesn't like rain. I help. I thank her for doing this.
Hopefully, I have adequately described the event. Both my lack of overreaction and her empathy and reaction though they may seem logical to many, are untypical and I am considering progress.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
RR- I noticed in most of your posts that self realization is a big aspect of what you are and continue to do . I commend you on your growth and positive steps. Only you can decide when enough is enough. Take the time to really think this true. My prayers are with you!
M51 w50 T-20Yrs M-16Yrs S15- mad at W for not trying and giving up 1 Awesum dog BD 10/31/17 separate rooms 02/08/18 wife moved out 05/17/18
LW, there is something about documenting this stuff. I hope that the personal changes remain permanent. I sometimes doubt it.
I also attribute it to how I am treated. My goal is to continue the changes regardless of how I am responded to. To be a centered, self-differentiated man detached so that whoever I am with, feels free. Hey, I'm the only one that I really have any control over.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
I wouldn't say our sitches are exactly the same but I'm getting to the point you are. Wondering is this worth it, or how much I care still. What Gordie wrote stirred up some thoughts that I didn't realize were there for me. Limbo [censored], you seem to be handling it well enough.
Can't believe your D left painting there after your warning. Tell her you're going to reinstate corporal punishment at yournhouse...haha
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
Limbo [censored], I'm there. W is gone weekends now and harrassing me all week via text. I am way beyond done but I know there will still be a day that she breaks down.
H-50 W-48 T-19 M -18 S23, S14 BD - 5/9/2018 OM discovered 5/10/2018
In house sep - 8/18/2018 Rope drop 2/15/2019 R'ing since 3/15/2019
I'm going to throw this out there, not because I have mastered Limbo Land, but because I hope to take some wind out of its sails. Instead of a fight or flight mode, you catch your breath and take inventory.
Somewhere in these threads it is written that your S has given you the gift of time. The real problem with Limbo is that unlike other stages of DBing, limbo isn't fueled by the other intense emotions. Fear, Anger, intense Sadness are all controlling emotions. Meaning you are subject to there effects. Along for their ride, if you will. Limbo Land is a calm stagnation that allows YOU to captain the ship. Or at least feel like you are. To see where things are and where they have been. To vacillate between "This is working" to "Is this working" to "I don't know if I want this.." and " How dare this person put me through this schit"
Point is and if I have learned anything by and about the phase it is this: [list]
[*]Learn to separate the mood swings from the true feelings. Do you feel this way just today or do you want to change your relationship goals?
[*]Mood swings are inevitable. What you do with them is your choice.
[*]Time is a gift and use it well. Be glad you are no longer in Fight or Flight mode.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Quick Friday update. Limbo Land continues but may be changing. I have noticed that W is even more respectful and less defensive. What I mean is that if I ask a question that in the past she may have taken it personally and become defensive, she now just responds. No self-victimization. She doesn't default to the idea that I am being judgemental or blaming her. Why the change? IDK, I'd like to think that it is a product of my hard work, but I'm not willing to take credit just yet. I guess it's possible that something outside the MR was making her happier. It's possible, but I think she would be less respectful to me as she seems to like to at least hint at her true feelings even if she won't communicate them like a healthy adult. If anything she is hinting that she is much happier with me. If she had something outside bringing her joy, I think she would be more "yea life" "boo RR17". Hope this makes sense.
She is in a better mood more often. Problem with that is I have slipped and shared a story or two about my day when I was mostly listening and validating. I let my guard down. Maybe it's a good thing. I just don't want to slip into a new normal that is not adequate. W sleeps on the couch or in a Ds room if one is vacant. Ds don't seem to care or be concerned. This has gone one for over a year now. Ds are busy with their own lives. I took them to pizza last night while W was at tennis. They are growing ups so fast.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
She is in a better mood more often. Problem with that is I have slipped and shared a story or two about my day when I was mostly listening and validating. I let my guard down. Maybe it's a good thing. I just don't want to slip into a new normal that is not adequate.
I am on record multiple times as stating that the move from limbo to R is gradual, natural and organic. Rarely is there a big bang event. And it involves the LBS too. I know in my case as my W got more receptive, as her actions became consistent, as she began to show she was giving up leaving the MR, i naturally starting opening up more and starting doing more "sharing". So don't feel that you can't do that. If she is showing signs of real change, consistently, overtime, then feel free to be more engaging. Keep it light and fun. That went a long way with my W.
Keep up the good work!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
RR- good post - the fact that W is in a better mood more often is a positive sign. Take the time to celebrate the small wins but don't let your guard down. In regards to your Ds enjoy that time and bask in the moment. After they have grown up and moved on we can not use the rewind button so really take delight in their presence while you can. Blessings my friend.
M51 w50 T-20Yrs M-16Yrs S15- mad at W for not trying and giving up 1 Awesum dog BD 10/31/17 separate rooms 02/08/18 wife moved out 05/17/18
Steve, that's a good point. Keep it fun. When you have gone through a season of not much more than stress and tension as a couple, keeping it fun is huge IMO. Throughout MC years ago the MC would say this. Of course, it was near imposable because I was a mess and not yet detached.
I say these things to remind myself as well as perhaps help others. Being the Lighthouse needs to include fun. WW or WAWs are often coming off of a euphoric high. If you offer a future that doesn't include fun you are at an even bigger disadvantage.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
So I recently read that MWD has written that while wasting away in Limbo Land it sometimes helps to mix things up. I have looked around and can't remember seeing it and can't find it.
Does anyone have any ideas where this was written?
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
So I recently read that MWD has written that while wasting away in Limbo Land it sometimes helps to mix things up. I have looked around and can't remember seeing it and can't find it.
Does anyone have any ideas where this was written?
I thought mixing it up was just another term for 180.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
LOL, if I 180 again, I'll be back where I started.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
LOL, if I 180 again, I'll be back where I started.
Isn't that what mixing it up would do to? For instance, if you have been leaving the house whenever she is home, mixing it up would be to stay at home when she is there. That is also a 180.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
So, I guess nobody remembers reading MWD expanding on mixing up Limbo?
I'm looking to read about it.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
So, just shipped D19 back to college. D15 is at a festival concert with friends and will spend the night out and concert tomorrow. W and I are empty nesting it. The only plan is to grill dinner. This could get interesting. No expectations.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
There has been a "receptive" vibe here lately. At least that is my take. W is showing all signs of love except physical affection. My job is to not screw it up and remove expectation.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
I'm 5 years into this. When does it go from sprint to marathon?
Well, I responded well. I think. Nothing in the cards. I feel that the W was feeling some pressure when I asked her what she had planned after church. When she said laundry. I knew to back off. I did and all is good.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
It has come to my attention recently that W has said a few things that have stuck with me. What is curious to me is that at the time I didn't think much about it but over time these items have stuck in my mind. I'm not trying to mind read as much as I'm trying to understand the significance to me.
The first one I did acknowledge but has turned out to have a much more profound effect than I first thought. While explaining a potential business endeavor, my W said supporting "I think you should do it. Nobody knows it better than you and you are great at it." So I immediately thanked her for the kind words of support. I also thought "I'll bet you do so you can take half the money on your way out the door" I didn't express these thoughts at all. In fact, I struggled with the impulsive thought. I also more importantly realized that since the recession 10 years ago, I have not heard words of encouragement like this from her. Now I was aware that I had not heard these things and I acknowledged that I appreciated the fact that W said it. But this has stuck with me how much I didn't expect it, and how much I had missed it.
The next thing that I am pretty sure I heard but I'm not 100% sure is, one time during one of my dialogs I mentioned that I did still love W. I know I'm not supposed to say that. I didn't say it in a way where there was any expectation of reciprocation, just kind of matter-of-fact. Well if my memory serves me W did reciprocate, and because I had no expectation and she didn't stop me, I breezed right past it. It caught me off guard. (You see, I'm detached) Now the significance is that in the past, pre DB, after BD, I said this with expectation and sometimes I got a forced reciprocation and sometimes I got nothing. Either way, it was forced and not very genuine. At the time I really didn't care because I was hurting and needed to hear it.
This time it, if it really happened, it was genuine. W was never one to say it first. Even when she did it was "Love you too" kind of thing. IDK, some childhood thing probably.
Those of you that have read this are probably thinking, so what. I get it. But if you understood that I am a l"ive in the moment and plan for the future" kind of guy, you might understand the significance of me contemplating somethings that were said in the past. In fact, people ask me about my weekend and I am so caught up in the upcoming week that I often struggle to remember what I did over the past weekend.
I don't know what it all means, but it is odd all the same. I guess good changes are happening. I still have moments when I feel angry or suspicious and feel like blowing things up. The difference is I realize that they are feelings that may very well change and this helps.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
I know the sting of that many many times over. The joy they bring to our lives vastly outweighs the heartache of having to say goodbye. But it is never easy.