Advice on my scenario - D-struction comes before c

[OrangeK]

Steve, one thing i know you will be thrilled to hear.

I think I found a new IC.

It is actually the woman Wife and I had seen twice for MC meetings, and we all know that those didnt last long.

But I liked this woman, she was realistic, affordable (sliding scale as she works for a charity), she was patient and attentive, and is 15 min from my new house.

My only concern is if she will be assertive enough, and I will tell her that i both want and think i need that level of assertiveness to get to the bottom of MY issues and what changes I need to make to be a better man.

[OrangeK]

I have spent months trying to convince myself I was over her, I dont miss her, that I dont love her because she never loved me and several other slightly different versions of the same sentiment.

I have been lying to myself.

Of course i love her, she is the woman i chose to marry.
Of course i Miss her, she is the mother of my son, and was the most amazing partner ive ever had, emotionally and physcially.
I have blamed myself, i have blamed her, i have blamed her dad.
Im not over her, obviously.
I always will love her, and miss her, and i may never be 100% over her.

What I am however, is determined.
Not to Not love or miss her, or even get over her.

I am determined to persist and thrive REGARDLESS of those facts.
I have been fighting my love for her, the fact that I miss her, and am not over her.
I need to accept these to be fact, and move forward despite these things, not stagnate because of them.

I cannot say if my 180's or GAL has had any effect on her, but as we know that DOESNT MATTER.

Because despite all the pain and loss i still feel, i am in a WAY better place than i was 3 weeks ago, 2 months ago, or even 1 year ago before i even knew about any of this.
I Feel healthier. I Feel more sane. I feel like im on the right road. Just got some miles left to do. thats all.

Gas tank is full. Lets floor it.

[mtb1981]

You got this, Orange. It only gets better with time...

[OrangeK]

Ahh my partner in the struggle! Thanks MTB , i feel like you and I have run neck-and-neck through all of this. it seems like you and I are flirting with the stage of apathy at the same time. I always look forward to your posts. Plans with the kids for the 4th?

[SteveLW]

OK, good to hear on the IC. I think she can help you explore your need to know.

However, I think your last post about not being over her answered that question. You need to know BECAUSE you are not over her.

OK you and are a lot more similar than you think. In fact, my discovery of this board (though I had been following MWD for over 10 years) was because of my need to know. If you look at my first thread title you see that I was exploring the phenomenon of Ws on antidepressants and the impact that has on their relationships.

The need to know for us in our sitches is similar to an auto-mechanics need to know what caused a car to breakdown: so we can fix it.

OK, I think your last post, and the one in response to my previous post gave us insight into the fact that deep down you still have hope at R with WW. Could it be that it is what feeds your need to know? I think at some level, like me when I came to the board, you still are looking for that magic bullet. That nugget that will bring her back to you. And your quest to "know" is really a quest to fix it so things can be returned to "normal".

I was the same way. I consumed 3-4 books each week OK. I was a reading and researching machine!

But it wasn't until I truly dropped the rope that my sitch started to turnaround.

One of the most profound things I found both hear and in my voracious reading was that WASs have an incredible capacity to know when we are still attached and when we are not. You can put on the best poker face, but they have a 6th sense knowing about when we still have that rope in our hand and when we do not.

In 2005, in my first sitch with my W, as part of our recovery after he EA, I had installed tracking software on her PC. Now remember, this is before smartphones. At the time I was still making my way in my career, not making nearly as much as I do now, and we had decided the year and a half prior that she would stay home with our daughter. So we didn't even have cellphones.

I, of course, was using the SW to track her online activities. About 6 weeks after bomb day, she had a moment of defiance and emailed OM. She knew I would see it, she didn't care. My response? I dropped the rope. But it wasn't what I said, it was what I did! I came home from work and uninstalled the tracking SW. I stopped asking her questions about how she was feeling about things. I stopped initiating R talks. I essentially, due to the realization that I had no control over her, let her go. She would either be true to the MR or she'd not be, but I was done trying to control her.

The turnaround was almost immediate. She opened up with complete transparency. She gave me all of her PWs (I never used them). The moment she detected I had REALLY let go, she clung on for dear life. Note, I was DBing and I didn't even know it!

I say all that to say that the hope you've shared that you still have, believe it or not, comes through in every interaction you have with her. She knows that the rope is still in your hand. And she know if not for the PPO you'd be contacting her for things not related to S3. SHE KNOWS.

Anyway, this got way longer than I intended for it to. I've always been drawn to your sitch OK, I so wish I can do more for you sitch than just type words on a screen. (I just remembered, I do pray for you and a lot of other here, so I do more!) I sincerely hope you can really let her go, not necessarily to get her back, but in your case to get yourself back.

Hang in there brother!

[AnotherStander]

Detachment is truly not caring what she does to her hair. If you went to a store yesterday and a cashier rang you up and long jet black hair, then you went back the next day, same cashier rings you up but she now has short, uber-blonde hair, you wouldn't give to craps about it. That is what your goal should be with your WW. No matter what she does. How she changes, water off a duck's back.

^^THIS^^

I have answered this question in the past in several different forms, i will do so again.

I have a very surgical mind, i need to know why the pieces fit where they do, i am investigatory by nature, If A causes B, and results in C, i Need to know what about A and B cause C to occur. I am never satisfied with the "A+B=C" answer. I need to know what it is about A and the way it interacts with B to cause C. You know what I mean?
This is why i struggled for so long with the "Its not a light-switch i can just shut off" issue regarding my feelings for her.

So, to directly answer your inquiry,
Why does making this correlation help me?

Because Wife (A) is experiencing or reacting to something I am unaware of such as a new problem in her life, some issue with OM or maybe even guilt or remorse on her part (B), and has caused her to make drastic changes (yet again) in her personality, looks and style (C).

Orange, this "surgical mind" is working against you in this situation. I understand you are analytical, but what we are telling you is THAT DOESN'T WORK with a WAW. Her actions are UNEXPLAINABLE. All the analysis in the world will NEVER offer you any explanations or solace or help you with future relationships (if you want that then look WITHIN). Please understand this, the sooner you do the sooner you will set yourself on the road to recovery.

By the way I can almost guarantee you the change in hair has nothing to do with guilt or remorse or an issue with OM. It's very typical of a WAS to change their clothing and hair as part of their "rebirth".

[OrangeK]

Detachment is truly not caring what she does to her hair. If you went to a store yesterday and a cashier rang you up and long jet black hair, then you went back the next day, same cashier rings you up but she now has short, uber-blonde hair, you wouldn't give to craps about it. That is what your goal should be with your WW. No matter what she does. How she changes, water off a duck's back.

^^THIS^^

I dont disagree, but did you see my reply to that?

Orange, this "surgical mind" is working against you in this situation. I understand you are analytical, but what we are telling you is THAT DOESN'T WORK with a WAW. Her actions are UNEXPLAINABLE. All the analysis in the world will NEVER offer you any explanations or solace or help you with future relationships (if you want that then look WITHIN). Please understand this, the sooner you do the sooner you will set yourself on the road to recovery.

By the way I can almost guarantee you the change in hair has nothing to do with guilt or remorse or an issue with OM. It's very typical of a WAS to change their clothing and hair as part of their "rebirth".

Again, i agree with what you say here, but the only thing that stands out to me as i mentioned is that her changing appearances happens at the start/end of each R.
She already made changes right when she met OM, to be more fit to his social circle, and is now doing so again, just seems like shes in a new transition. thats all. I still believe theres more to it than a "rebirth", given her chameleon like tendencies with each new social circle.

I know it doest change my goals, or my plan of action at all, but i do still think its notable.

[SteveLW]

So OK, is the hope that her new look means she and OM are splitting up? That seems to be your implication.

[OrangeK]

OK, good to hear on the IC. I think she can help you explore your need to know.

However, I think your last post about not being over her answered that question. You need to know BECAUSE you are not over her.

This is a difficult thing to touch on. Sometimes i feel over her, other times, far far from it.

I think of it this way, My feelings and thoughts concerning her are still suffering from cognitive dissonance.

Logically, i know she abused me, lied to me from very early on and generally treated me like trash.

Emotionally, I still want it all to be real, even though, emotionally now i know it never was.

I think I am really close to "Dropping the rope" as you say,
here is why i think so.

The "Stomach Nerves" have all but gone away, i do not wake up angry anymore. I actually am enjoying activities i used to that i had lost interest in. I find myself thinking of other women as much if not more than i think of WW (Still not dating though, the woman I slept with recently and I both talked and decided is probably best to focus on our own lives ATM).
I feel that the "Detached Apathy" i was striving for is around the corner.
Honestly, i don't even recognize WIFE anymore.
Shes a different human being, because she doesn't have her own identity. Its like silly putty, it just molds to whatever container you put it in.

OK, I think your last post, and the one in response to my previous post gave us insight into the fact that deep down you still have hope at R with WW.

I had been clinging to tiny fibers of hope, I think what WAS hope has recently morphed into just. . . . disappointment. I dont hope for R anymore because I know it would just mean more abuse and lies.

What I "Hope" for is the materialization of the R that never existed, and never will. So i cant really call that hope?
Maybe call it a pipe dream.

I do KNOW it is unattainable. Never was, never will be.

Could it be that it is what feeds your need to know? I think at some level, like me when I came to the board, you still are looking for that magic bullet. That nugget that will bring her back to you. And your quest to "know" is really a quest to fix it so things can be returned to "normal".

I think my need to know is just a need to understand. Think of it like a murder case. A cold case.
I am that determined detective, ready to retire, but i CANT until i solve this one last case. You Know?
As i said earlier, i know theres no fixing what was never there, so I think you "Magic Bullet" expression is amusingly accurate, not because it will fix anything (bullets never heal), but if you think of the "magic bullet" in the sense of the JFK case, where if it was discovered, it would explain the ENTIRE inexplicable conspiracy.
I am looking for that "AH-HA!" Moment when it all makes sense.
I think my IC will be paramount in uncovering WHY i have this need to know, because I do not believe it is driven from a need to fix or reconcile.
I know that is never going to be an option, because it technically never WAS an option to begin with.

I was the same way. I consumed 3-4 books each week OK. I was a reading and researching machine!

But it wasn't until I truly dropped the rope that my sitch started to turnaround.

One of the most profound things I found both hear and in my voracious reading was that WASs have an incredible capacity to know when we are still attached and when we are not. You can put on the best poker face, but they have a 6th sense knowing about when we still have that rope in our hand and when we do not.

I agree with this, its like a superpower or something.
Sandi, can you touch on this? Any idea how the "WW" can detect this, even during NC?

I say all that to say that the hope you've shared that you still have, believe it or not, comes through in every interaction you have with her. She knows that the rope is still in your hand. And she know if not for the PPO you'd be contacting her for things not related to S3. SHE KNOWS.

Again, i dont think its hope, but i can agree my desperation and frustration likely still bleeds through in my texts.

Anyway, this got way longer than I intended for it to. I've always been drawn to your sitch OK, I so wish I can do more for you sitch than just type words on a screen. (I just remembered, I do pray for you and a lot of other here, so I do more!) I sincerely hope you can really let her go, not necessarily to get her back, but in your case to get yourself back.

Hang in there brother!

Thanks Steve,

I am shocked but all the guys in my same sitch, all with WW's around age 30.
Me, MTB, Ballast (happened to him TWICE!!!), ovrrnbw, Davide, STH, blackmac and the list goes on.

It is a damn pandemic of WW's.
Perhaps its the "everybody gets a trophy" parenting method rearing its ugly head 20 years later IDK.

But i am heartbroken to see all these great guys, great dads, that gave it their all, resolved to be dedicated family men, and their hopes and dreams were just obliterated.

Nice guys really do finish last i guess, and yet all you see online is women posting about how all guys are A-holes, and that chivalry is dead and so on.
Well the few nice guys where WERE are likely all set with bearing their heart to be smashed a 2nd or 3rd time now, after getting their hearts blended to paste by women who just fester in their problems, not communicating and expecting their husbands to read their minds and just guess what is wrong.

My WW never said A WORD that she was unhappy, or expressed any intent to leave.
She just went cold for a few months, while i scrambled to try and delicately figure out why, and by then she had already been cheating for weeks/months.

I had no chance, she decided before the rings even went ON, that they would come off. Even her choice of wedding band is suspect looking back (a very thin, fine gold hoop, easily put on any other finger and not recognizable as a wedding band)

Such a litigious, materialistic, throwaway society we live in.

I wanted a whole family, and the american dream for my family.
And I am the bad guy, who gets slandered, lied about and prosecuted.

The American Dream has turned into a waking nightmare.

I am just disgusted by the state of marriage and family values in the world today.

[OrangeK]

So OK, is the hope that her new look means she and OM are splitting up? That seems to be your implication.

Steve, i will be honest with you.
I do hope her an OM break up.
Not for the reasons you think however.

I want OM to dump her, and leave her alone and without help.

She needs the reality check.
Barring that, i hope they get married ASAP, it would seriously help my case. I could re-evaluate Child support if they had 2 incomes.

I think her new changes could be because she is getting bored of OM, who knows? It could be just an act of desperation as she is struggling to find an identity that works for her in this current scenario.
She could be attempting to curry favor with some woman in her industry she views as superior.

All i will say is that there is motive behind her dramatic personal changes, its not just idle "looks changing".
Im not going to dwell on it or dig into why.

trying to "drop the rope"
or as we say in the climbing world.

"Wife, you are off belay"