Affair, no feelings...is there hope? V

[44tries]

Previous threads:

Part I: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2783627#Post2783627
Part II: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2785704#Post2785704
Part III: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2787496#Post2787496
Part IV: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2790033&page=1


I'm back! Sorry I couldn't post on my trip, was with W the entire time and couldn't risk it.

Overall, the trip was good. There were a few hiccups...one instance she went full "bully" mode and said some very hurtful things, which she did apologize for but I don't think it was wholehearted. It's interesting she tries to use our ending MR as a threat, despite already having played that card. If she gets really upset or hurt, she will lash out and say things like "maybe we should speed up this process" or "I've been going through the motions long enough, I can do it a little longer". She knows exactly where it hurts, but at this point all I think is...she is only undermining herself and her previous threats.

The worst incident was on the last day, and partly my fault. We went to a theme park and from the very beginning, she was texting excessively. Background/update: I know she has contact with OM. 100% confirmed, but it isn't obsessive like before and I have no knowledge of the content of the messages. However, she is shady and secretive to the hilt. She will verbally tell me to give her physical space while she is on her phone and accuse me of spying or watching her. Has changed her password, hides her phone while showering, covers it while typing if I am within view, etc. Anyway, at the theme park, my patience wore thin and I asked her if she was going to text all day (I know, bad move). She gave some ridiculous speech about how she is an adult and it isn't rude, look at everyone else on their phones, back off, blah blah. So I did, and then she accused me of sucking the fun out of the day and that I had ruined it. I am SO tired of being blamed for everything. So I kick myself and try to get through the day despite everything. Later, she talks about taking her nephews to Disneyland in the next year or two. She says maybe she will "hit me up" when they go and I can join so I can "still be a part of their lives". I KNOW to ignore all of these nonsensical comments she makes, but I am starting to feel resentful myself and I couldn't hold back when she called me shady. I basically told her what makes her assume I would want to go to DL or even be friends with her when in fact she is the one who is shady as he11. I told her I know she is still in contact with OM, has continued to lie and be completely insensitive and unapologetic. Of course, she got very defensive saying things like I am assuming and it's not what I think, etc. The best part--if she tried to tell me the truth, I wouldn't believe her. Gee, I wonder why??? So that's pretty much how the trip ended.

When we got back, I went surfing with my GAL friends (had a GREAT day). They changed plans and we ended up not going overnight, but W still sure wasn't happy. She made sure to let me know she was "leaving" before I got home and I know she desperately wanted me to ask where she was going etc but I gave her nothing. Yesterday she moped around the house, surprisingly wasn't rude to me but so over-the-top with her pouting. She actually got a deck of cards out to play solitaire in the living room. I honestly don't know what she wants from me at this point. How can she be so attached and needy, but so resentful and contemptuous at the same time??

I picked up another book to read by Stosny that addresses resentment. It really helped me to understand how her behavior toward me and subsequent guilt and shame feeds her own self-loathing. It violates her own humanity and core values to not show me care and compassion, but she is stuck in the cycle of misery where she is trying to starve her hungry heart to death rather than feed it (which he says is like trying to drown yourself--impossible). I really struggle with the fact that she resents me and has so much hurt, because I know I am not perfect and have probably done some very hurtful things, but I feel with her being wayward I am not supposed to have remorse or apologize for anything. I understand I need to regain her respect which may breed attraction, but how will that wash away her resentment when I have not sincerely owned my mistakes and given her a formal apology? The book describes how compassion is the only antidote; I am trying to find that balance of being compassionate toward her but also intolerant to her disrespect. It is tricky!

One strange thing that I am trying not to read into--she bought a book about praying for your husband. The entire thing is daily prayers dedicated to him. I'll admit I'm somewhat hopeful if she has some kind of spiritual connection (one way to connect with your core self according to Stosny), especially if it involves having compassion for me through prayer. I just can't really believe it given the state of her heart at the moment. I'm not sure why else she would have bought it; maybe there is some manipulation I am blind to because she brought it to my attention by texting me to check if her "new books" synced to her kindle. I told her it was there, but didn't comment on the content.

The one good thing is that she does have motivation to make positive changes in her life in general. I am trying to encourage this. I know it is supposed to be a huge no-no, but I have considered suggesting she read the part of the Stosny book for those with deep resentment. Not as a ploy for me or the MR, but because her misery is so clearly founded in everything he talks about and it will not get any better without help (will carry over to future relationships, etc). Reconnecting with the core self and finding compassion is obviously healthy and healing regardless of the MR. But I know she might not be receptive even if I made it clear I was only suggesting she do it for herself.

I'm so glad to be back here reading because I am still a newbie that needs constant reminders. A few days off the board and I remember everything but it's like I can just see it all swimming around in my head without the coherency I have when I'm focused, posting, and reading. I am working to get back to where I was before the confrontation. Actually, I think it was the talk we had when she came home that really set me back. I still don't know if maybe I should have waited to initiate that R talk, but how she was treating me during that time she was gone was where she needed to be and I am trying to retrace my steps to get back there. I think my DBing was at it's best when I was totally focused on me while knowing of her A, mourning my dead MR, and moving on without giving up. I think it's still too early to do much else without undermining my efforts. The trip was fun, but now it's time to fully detach and hit the GAL and "me" stuff hard.

[AnotherStander]

I honestly don't know what she wants from me at this point. How can she be so attached and needy, but so resentful and contemptuous at the same time??

This is very typical WAS behavior. I know it seems strange to you but it seems oh-so-normal to me having read so many sitches over the years. Here's a list of the things she wants from you:

"_______"

Yup that's right, nothing. So that's what you need to give her. Nothing. Time and space, that's it.

I really struggle with the fact that she resents me and has so much hurt, because I know I am not perfect and have probably done some very hurtful things, but I feel with her being wayward I am not supposed to have remorse or apologize for anything. I understand I need to regain her respect which may breed attraction, but how will that wash away her resentment when I have not sincerely owned my mistakes and given her a formal apology?

Not sure if you read many of Sandi's posts but if not, please do. Your W is wayward and waywards need more of a "tough love" approach than a WAS. She's having an affair and YOU want to apologize? That will not earn you her respect, she will have LESS respect for you because she KNOWS she's wayward and she KNOWS it's wrong. Do not give her any concessions, your attitude should be that the affair has to stop and until then there's nothing to discuss.

One strange thing that I am trying not to read into--she bought a book about praying for your husband. The entire thing is daily prayers dedicated to him. I'll admit I'm somewhat hopeful if she has some kind of spiritual connection

I think you're reading too much into it. I mean she could have bought it because she thinks you are at fault for everything and a horrible person and that you need to be saved and maybe her praying will save you even though she doesn't want you. You just don't know so don't lose sleep trying to figure it out.

I know it is supposed to be a huge no-no, but I have considered suggesting she read the part of the Stosny book for those with deep resentment. Not as a ploy for me or the MR

It doesn't matter whether it's a ploy or not, what matters is what she thinks it is, and she WILL think it's a ploy. So don't do it. You can't fix her, and you really need to quit trying to. It's her journey to make.

[44tries]

Not sure if you read many of Sandi's posts but if not, please do. Your W is wayward and waywards need more of a "tough love" approach than a WAS. She's having an affair and YOU want to apologize? That will not earn you her respect, she will have LESS respect for you because she KNOWS she's wayward and she KNOWS it's wrong. Do not give her any concessions, your attitude should be that the affair has to stop and until then there's nothing to discuss.

I understand. That is exactly why I am not going to actually apologize. I'm just saying it's hard to reconcile both ways of thinking. It was easier before when I knew for sure there was an affair and what was going on. Now, I don't really know what my attitude should be because I can't trust anything. It's almost like there are now two versions of my W in my mind--the wayward one that we paint here in all its ugliness and her "core self" who is a human being deserving of compassion and love. I cannot think about both as one in the same and it feels like glitching trying to tell myself which one is real. And if it's the former and the latter doesn't exist, then do I really even want her at all? It's hard to explain and maybe I sound crazy, IDK.

[quoteI think you're reading too much into it. I mean she could have bought it because she thinks you are at fault for everything and a horrible person and that you need to be saved and maybe her praying will save you even though she doesn't want you. You just don't know so don't lose sleep trying to figure it out. [/quote]

I had the same thought too and actually found it a bit amusing.

It doesn't matter whether it's a ploy or not, what matters is what she thinks it is, and she WILL think it's a ploy. So don't do it. You can't fix her, and you really need to quit trying to. It's her journey to make.

Of course you are right, and these are answers I already know so why do I keep asking their questions?


Tonight she blew up over my surf day. Claimed I was so selfish, had abandoned my family, didn't spend any time with the dogs, etc. Had a fit because I didn't tell her until the morning of, despite the fact I have been telling her for weeks. I told her I was sorry she felt that way, that I spend time with my dogs every single day, and walked away. Round 2, she threatens to leave while my mom and brother visit and says she doesn't want them to come. Round 3, she comes into my bedroom crying saying that I had accused her of talking to OM while we were waiting at a restaurant with the friend we visited and in fact she was talking to her mom because someone close to her had died that weekend. I also made the mistake of using something our friend said to back me up and now she is saying she will lose a friendship and we are ganging up on her etc. I don't feel I should feel sorry for accepting a friend reaching out for support during a difficult time and FWIW said friend has been about as neutral and unbiased as possible.

Turns out it was her friend's grandpa that had died. He went to all her sports games for years, but I also have to wonder if this isn't all manipulation. She is purposely trying to make me feel guilty and bad about myself. So should I just ignore her spiels? I know she probably wanted me to go chase after her and give her reassurance. This is where I freeze and feel like if I just never bring it up or show concern about the death that would only breed more resentment. But then a part of me thinks, it's not even about the death or the friendship, all she really wants is assurance she still has control. Then I go back to being horrified at myself for thinking those things about someone who is hurting. Argh.

[44tries]

I am having a hard time with detachment while still living together. It IS improving, but it feels like a tug of war against associating with my W. I am GALing and giving myself times where I feel great. But I need more structured guidelines for how much time I should be spending with W and what kinds of activities, etc.

Note that I already shut down any association during which she is disrespectful or uncommunicative. It's times where she is not moody and acting nice and normal that I don't know how open to be. Today she came home randomly around lunch and asked if I wanted to come to her work to play board games and swim for the afternoon. I accepted, but I don't know if that is inhibiting my detachment or if you can still detach while doing any of that stuff. We had a fun day and all her saltiness from yesterday was gone. We played around in the pool and when we got home she rushed me to finish my shower so we could nap and watch TV together. It's all well and good, but half of me feels guilty like I'm doing something I shouldn't and sabotaging myself. I know that I can't nice her back and I don't want to enable cake eating. But at this point in time, I just need more clarity on where to be on the "I want nothing to do with you" scale (my actual emotions are still on the typical roller coaster of love, anger, hurt, apathy, etc, repeat).

[lusa]

Ditto 44, i could have written that, so thank you for asking it

[sandi2]

I don't understand. Do you see her as being emotionally abused?

[44tries]

I don't understand. Do you see her as being emotionally abused?

Sandi, I would love if you explained your question a bit more--what are you responding to exactly? I don't see her as being emotionally abused per se, at least not by me, if that's what you're asking. I do not see her as a victim. But I do see her as a person with a lot of emotional pain and using self-destructive mechanisms to deal with it. That is not my problem nor can I or should I help/save her. However, I still have compassion and understanding and it prevents me from feeling overly resentful/angry toward her. It's a strange conundrum for me, because I don't think I should be trying to replace my compassion with resentment (that is the entire problem we are dealing with, from her side). But a lot of times when I try to implement advice I receive here it feels like I should be having "harder" feelings toward her and encouraging my anger. It sort of comes back to my previous comments on feeling like there are two versions of her in my head. I don't know how to internalize the fact that I'm done putting up with her and will be better off without her, without also abandoning the belief that she is a decent human being. I don't know if that makes any sense at all or answers your question.

[SteveLW]

44, we all struggle with that. I know I vacillated between the same kind of thinking. That she didn't deserve me anymore. And then that she was still the girl I married and I needed to give her more time.

44, the trick is until you embrace the first fully, and realize that the girl you married is gone. Forever. You don't have a hope of ever attracting her to a new MR. Let her go to get her back. That is the only thing that really works. You have to tap into that desire that innate in all humans that they want what they've lost or can't have.

And even then it isn't a guarantee, but at least you'll mentally be at a place where you don't care. That you can move on.

44 remember too that once you are over her, you don't have to deal with her ever again. I know it is hard to believe that you will be happy about that. But one day, if you end up D, you'll thank the Lord above that you two didn't have kids. And that you can move on.

Think of it this way: it is a win-win. Either you will have a renewed MR with a woman you love, or you will move on unattached to someone that truly deserves you.

[sandi2]

Sandi, I would love if you explained your question a bit more--what are you responding to exactly?

You seemed confused after reading Stosny's book. You come back talking about compassion, resentment, etc. Do you see yourself being in an emotional abusive MR?I'm just trying to see where your head is, after coming back home.

However, I still have compassion and understanding and it prevents me from feeling overly resentful/angry toward her. It's a strange conundrum for me, because I don't think I should be trying to replace my compassion with resentment (that is the entire problem we are dealing with, from her side). But a lot of times when I try to implement advice I receive here it feels like I should be having "harder" feelings toward her and encouraging my anger.

Let's get one thing straight. Replacing compassion with resentment is not advised. Resentment is never healthy!

I often talk tough and straight to a H that wants to remain in his state of passivity. The nice guy will be drawn to the type of books that talk about showing loving tenderness, compassion, understanding, cooperation, etc. There is nothing "wrong" with any of those things.......when implemented in the right time & place. The problem here is that you have a wife with a wayward mindset. She abuses your tenderness, goodness, compassion, etc.

You want to make excuses for her. Partly, b/c you love her, and partly b/c you think you can work around the controlling, manipulative relationship.......if you show her how much you are committed; how deeply you care about her; show her the attention she craves; manage to have time to GAL while she's at work; and hope to God she'll change......maybe a miracle will come.

(I have to move from the IPad to my computer, so I'll be right back).

[44tries]

44, we all struggle with that. I know I vacillated between the same kind of thinking. That she didn't deserve me anymore. And then that she was still the girl I married and I needed to give her more time.

44, the trick is until you embrace the first fully, and realize that the girl you married is gone. Forever. You don't have a hope of ever attracting her to a new MR. Let her go to get her back. That is the only thing that really works. You have to tap into that desire that innate in all humans that they want what they've lost or can't have.

Thanks, Steve, it helps to know this thinking is normal. It's strange, for me it's not really about realizing the girl I married is gone, but more like that she never even existed. Like maybe I was blind and somehow deluded myself.

44 remember too that once you are over her, you don't have to deal with her ever again. I know it is hard to believe that you will be happy about that. But one day, if you end up D, you'll thank the Lord above that you two didn't have kids. And that you can move on.

Think of it this way: it is a win-win. Either you will have a renewed MR with a woman you love, or you will move on unattached to someone that truly deserves you.

I definitely agree, if things don't work out, I have a lot to be thankful for. I have a generous amount of favorable conditions to move forward from this. I never lose sight that it's a win-win. But it doesn't change the fact that it has to hurt along the way.

[44tries]

You seemed confused after reading Stosny's book. You come back talking about compassion, resentment, etc. Do you see yourself being in an emotional abusive MR?I'm just trying to see where your head is, after coming back home.

Ah, I understand. The confusion is in my perspective of my W. I am stuck between feeling compassion for her as an inherently good human being vs. feeling negatively toward her and thinking she isn't good enough for me (or however you want to phrase it). A huge part of Stonsy's book is an explanation of the selfish, resentful behavior of your spouse, but he is still painting them as if their "core self" is "good". His whole goal is basically to develop compassion, which he claims is the only antidote to resentment. The problem is for nice guys like me, this is already sort of our default mindset and does not help make us less "soft".

Let's get one thing straight. Replacing compassion with resentment is not advised. Resentment is never healthy!

Right. Logically I completely know this.

I often talk tough and straight to a H that wants to remain in his state of passivity. The nice guy will be drawn to the type of books that talk about showing loving tenderness, compassion, understanding, cooperation, etc. There is nothing "wrong" with any of those things.......when implemented in the right time & place. The problem here is that you have a wife with a wayward mindset. She abuses your tenderness, goodness, compassion, etc.

I understand exactly what you're saying.

You want to make excuses for her. Partly, b/c you love her, and partly b/c you think you can work around the controlling, manipulative relationship.......if you show her how much you are committed; how deeply you care about her; show her the attention she craves; manage to have time to GAL while she's at work; and hope to God she'll change......maybe a miracle will come.

(I have to move from the IPad to my computer, so I'll be right back).

You describe PERFECTLY the default NGS "plan"...and hoping for that miracle. I don't know why it's so darn hard to let go of those ideas. Especially when living together, you get forced to make this choice 100x per day.

[sandi2]

But a lot of times when I try to implement advice I receive here it feels like I should be having "harder" feelings toward her and encouraging my anger.

Do you have to muster up harder feelings for her in order for you to implement some of the advice? I'm sure it must feel very uncomfortable and perhaps unnatural, b/c you seem to be a gentle person. You have been in a very manipulative relationship for a long time, and it must cause you to question your feelings a lot.

To be clear, I don't want you to harbor hard feelings for your W. Those type of feelings will result in you becoming a WAH. If your goal is to have a healthy MR, then don't swap the positive feelings for negative ones. Make sense?

I felt the vacation trip was much, much too soon following the events in your sitch. But I knew you were going and nothing I said was going to prevent it. During that time, you lost touch with your support system, and it probably set you back. She is contacting the OM, manipulating you, etc. If you called her hand on anything.....I didn't catch it in your posts. I understand not wanting to "ruin" the trip, as you probably thought you'd be doing......so now you are pretty much back to the starting line again (with her). I believe once you can grasp the correct concept of how you should feel vs the actions to show, you'll be okay.

You love this woman with all your heart. As long as she is respecting you and the MR, then by all means.....show all those warm, tender, affectionate actions that are bursting to get out. She will see, "When I respect my H, I get wonderful acts of love in return".

What happens if she doesn't respect you? What happens if the lines become a bit blurred for you and you aren't sure if it is disrespect.....but it seems she takes advantage of you, likes to dictate what you do, reacts petty when you do something for yourself, etc. If you continue with the warm affection or subservient behavior, she'll think, "Hummm, I get his wonderful acts of love regardless of how badly I treat him. My sex desire for him is gone. He is not what I admire in a man. I can treat him anyway I want, and get the same results".

You'll lose her positive feelings, if she can manipulate or boss you and still get the warm, fuzzy actions from you. Does your love stop? No, but you have self-respect and your values of how others treat come into play. When you refuse to succumb to her bossiness, or comfort her pettiness, or be understanding of her cheating behavior, or give physical affection when she belittles you....then she sees, "44 is stronger than I gave him credit. I admire him for not taking any of my cr@p behavior. I miss him spending time with me, and I miss the affection he once gave. I miss the closeness we once had. I want to treat him better, or I might lose him completely".

That's kind of the way it is in a nutshell. Of course, it's not as easy and quick as this sounded, b/c a bad situation has been created, and she feels in total power over you. She is not going to give up that sense of power easily. You have been in a subservient mode for so long that it may take a professional therapist to help you get out, IDK. I do think you have blurred the lines between feeling one emotion and doing another action. If we all based our actions on our feelings, the world would be more messed up than it already is. We base our actions on our values.

I don't know how to internalize the fact that I'm done putting up with her and will be better off without her, without also abandoning the belief that she is a decent human being. I don't know if that makes any sense at all or answers your question.

It makes sense, but I'm telling you it doesn't have to be that way. I wish I knew how to tell you that you don't have to think of her in derogatory terms, in order to stand up yourself. We teach people how to treat us. If I tell you that the only thing a WW respects is strength, then tell me why it is so difficult for you to show that strength to your W? What do you see in your mind when you think of a man of strength dealing with a wayward W? I'm just curious to know.

I so hope that you have not developed the mindset of an emotionally abused spouse. If you haven't, there's a good chance that you will, continuing to subject yourself to this type of treatment. Can you see how you make excuses for her, try to blame yourself, find reasons to believe it's not as bad as it may sound to others, etc. What led you to read Stosny's book? Nobody on the board is going to blame you or find fault if you feel abused. If you do, then I suggest you get professional help with it. By that, I'm not trying to get rid of you or anything. I'm trying to get to the heart of what's really going on with you.

[44tries]

Do you have to muster up harder feelings for her in order for you to implement some of the advice? I'm sure it must feel very uncomfortable and perhaps unnatural, b/c you seem to be a gentle person. You have been in a very manipulative relationship for a long time, and it must cause you to question your feelings a lot.

I wouldn't say I have to, because I am logical enough that just knowing it is the "right" thing to do can push me to do it. But it certainly becomes a lot easier in moments where I can get myself to feel angry or know she literally just sent a text to OM, or whatever. You are spot on, Sandi, I do question my feelings a lot. I only ever had good intentions and wanted to be the best, loving H I could be, but I can see now how everything became about her and she became manipulative and power hungry. I simply never considered she could be so selfish and therefore I was blind.

To be clear, I don't want you to harbor hard feelings for your W. Those type of feelings will result in you becoming a WAH. If your goal is to have a healthy MR, then don't swap the positive feelings for negative ones. Make sense?

I understand, and this is exactly what I was referring to in my previous post. Hearing all the advice telling me to just drop her, walk away, etc feels like it is encouraging me to have the feelings of a WAH. I know that those negative feelings are not required to be able to walk away, but again they make it a whole lot easier. However, even Stosny talks in his book about how sometimes the most compassionate thing you can do is let them go. So, it doesn't have to be out of bitterness. I just don't know how to heal the longing feeling of still loving someone if you let them go out of compassion.

I felt the vacation trip was much, much too soon following the events in your sitch. But I knew you were going and nothing I said was going to prevent it. During that time, you lost touch with your support system, and it probably set you back. She is contacting the OM, manipulating you, etc. If you called her hand on anything.....I didn't catch it in your posts. I understand not wanting to "ruin" the trip, as you probably thought you'd be doing......so now you are pretty much back to the starting line again (with her). I believe once you can grasp the correct concept of how you should feel vs the actions to show, you'll be okay.

I don't disagree with you one bit. I do think it set me back. I would definitely not have initiated the trip at this time, but she did and perhaps I wasn't strong enough to turn her down. It didn't help that I wanted to go on the trip regardless of anything to do with W. I did not call her out until that last day of the trip, when my anger did boil over and I simply told her I had had enough of her shadiness and she shouldn't assume I would want to be friends much less family in the future as she seems to somehow think this is still possible. The problem, I know, is that my actions do not back this up when we are right back to being friendly the next week. This is why I still don't quite know how to not be "all or nothing". How do I show I want nothing to do with her during times she is disrespectful, but be fine when she is friendly and we have fun? It feels like everyday I wake up and have to decide "should I detach and do my own thing today/borderline ignore W or accept her invitation to come to her work or go to dinner, etc?" I desperately want to grasp the correct concept and feel very frustrated with myself that I have not fully done so already.

You love this woman with all your heart. As long as she is respecting you and the MR, then by all means.....show all those warm, tender, affectionate actions that are bursting to get out. She will see, "When I respect my H, I get wonderful acts of love in return".

This is partly what I'm unclear on...she can't be respecting me and the MR at any time right now, right? I feel like I'm running hot, then cold all the time in response to her moods, which is the opposite of detachment. Like today she was totally nice and friendly, wanting to plan workouts with me, play video games, go to dinner, etc. Do I engage or not? Doesn't it undermine my withdrawal tomorrow when she will inevitably start getting jealous and petty because I'm going to a birthday party on Friday?

What happens if she doesn't respect you? What happens if the lines become a bit blurred for you and you aren't sure if it is disrespect.....but it seems she takes advantage of you, likes to dictate what you do, reacts petty when you do something for yourself, etc. If you continue with the warm affection or subservient behavior, she'll think, "Hummm, I get his wonderful acts of love regardless of how badly I treat him. My sex desire for him is gone. He is not what I admire in a man. I can treat him anyway I want, and get the same results".

You'll lose her positive feelings, if she can manipulate or boss you and still get the warm, fuzzy actions from you. Does your love stop? No, but you have self-respect and your values of how others treat come into play. When you refuse to succumb to her bossiness, or comfort her pettiness, or be understanding of her cheating behavior, or give physical affection when she belittles you....then she sees, "44 is stronger than I gave him credit. I admire him for not taking any of my cr@p behavior. I miss him spending time with me, and I miss the affection he once gave. I miss the closeness we once had. I want to treat him better, or I might lose him completely".

That's kind of the way it is in a nutshell. Of course, it's not as easy and quick as this sounded, b/c a bad situation has been created, and she feels in total power over you. She is not going to give up that sense of power easily. You have been in a subservient mode for so long that it may take a professional therapist to help you get out, IDK. I do think you have blurred the lines between feeling one emotion and doing another action. If we all based our actions on our feelings, the world would be more messed up than it already is. We base our actions on our values.

This makes complete sense. Again, I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be responding differently now depending on how she treats me day to day or if I should just be viewing her as perpetually disrespectful right now. I understand your point on feeling one thing and acting another way, based on values. I can do that; I don't need to "feel" it to act on it if I know it's right. The problem is being confident in every little scenario about what is the "right" way to act. Like you said I am so out of practice, it's like building this muscle up after years of being in a cast.

It makes sense, but I'm telling you it doesn't have to be that way. I wish I knew how to tell you that you don't have to think of her in derogatory terms, in order to stand up yourself. We teach people how to treat us. If I tell you that the only thing a WW respects is strength, then tell me why it is so difficult for you to show that strength to your W? What do you see in your mind when you think of a man of strength dealing with a wayward W? I'm just curious to know.

It is not because I don't want to or am not willing, but because I lost my "natural" ability to do it. Like you mentioned earlier, it is not comfortable and I question myself constantly. I know I can do it, I just need to keep putting in the work and make sure I am not doing the two steps forward, one step back dance all the time. To answer your last question, I see a man who is intolerant. I think of all the guys on here who talk about showing your W the door and not caring about losing her because there are so many better things in life to fill your time with than a WW. Outside of no longer giving her the time of day at all, I can see strong responses to individual acts of disrespect. Like all the dialogues you have written to me as responses to her manipulation and selfishness. Those are strong. But I draw a blank when it comes to "normal" daily interaction.

I so hope that you have not developed the mindset of an emotionally abused spouse. If you haven't, there's a good chance that you will, continuing to subject yourself to this type of treatment. Can you see how you make excuses for her, try to blame yourself, find reasons to believe it's not as bad as it may sound to others, etc. What led you to read Stosny's book? Nobody on the board is going to blame you or find fault if you feel abused. If you do, then I suggest you get professional help with it. By that, I'm not trying to get rid of you or anything. I'm trying to get to the heart of what's really going on with you.

I'm not sure what the mindset of an emotionally abused spouse looks like, exactly. But I hope I have not developed it either. I would not argue with you if you told me my W was emotionally abusive. In fact, she was worse in the past. There was a time when she was verbally uninhibited and if she had not recognized it, apologized, and changed, we probably would not be having this conversation right now. I do see how quickly I make excuses for her or blame myself. I think of the very first post I wrote here (and I see a lot of NGs with WW post the same stuff at the beginning, desperately trying to find all the ways they failed), but now I have removed most of the blame. I know I am flawed and contributed to the problems, but I know now that all the little things I came up with at the beginning are not the real reasons for the breakdown. My main fault was allowing the dynamics to become what they are.

I was led to read Stosny's book because I was looking for more material on how to respond to a W filled with resentment. Of course, the main "action" part of his book (the one I read anyway) is actually written for the resentful spouse. I did gain insight on the importance of GAL, however, along with some interesting thoughts on boundaries (he talks about how they are not drawing lines in the sand or really anything outside of yourself; rather, when you are in touch with your core self and values, the boundaries come naturally and are a part of you). I don't really know how to answer if I "feel" abused. I have always had a very healthy self esteem; I do not tend to internalize blame or allow others to make me feel bad about myself. There have been times when I have realized how my W has damaged my self esteem. I can easily see how a more vulnerable person in my position could have been made to feel quite low. But I think I have known all along what my true worth is and that it's my W's problem, not mine. I have sort of the opposite problem to hers; she detests vulnerability whereas I give too much of myself too freely. I may think I am giving without needing anything in return, but my self discovery in recovering from NGS told me I in fact needed more than I thought.

[sandi2]

It didn't go as well as I'd hoped. As I kind of expected, she didn't initiate the conversation. I let her settle in and eat and then I initiated, leading with the boundary talk. That went over fine and she mostly agreed. She cried and said she knew she was a "bully" (her words). She agreed I was right to ask for no further disrespect and that it can't continue. Also, she had no problem with no private inappropriate relationships.

Frankly, it all went fine except for the part where it came to willingness. She couldn't tell me she wanted to go all in to try to save the MR. She said she felt like I was giving an ultimatum. She said she didn't know if things could be fixed. Yes, it sounds great to start fresh, but you can't just shove all the old stuff out the door. She is very afraid of going back to the same old cycle and being stuck in an unhappy MR. I made it clear the old MR was dead and I didn't want that back either. She just didn't get how we could build something new on top of rubble. She talked about how she didn't know if she could just get rid of all her resentment, she can't control her feelings.

I don't think she thinks it is possible to regain attraction and feelings. She cried and cried, went on about how she didn't know how to let go and was really struggling with the idea of divorce. I told her there were no promises or expectations, she just needed to be willing to try. I really don't understand why she can't do that. She claims she doesn't want to prolong a bad thing, but then says she struggles with divorce and wasn't rushing to go that route. She basically admitted that she doesn't want to lose my friendship and companionship. I told her I can't just give her the parts she wants and forget the rest. She said she feels she has lost all her independence and we had codependency issues and she doesn't even know who she is. She doesn't see a way to take a hard detour and get back from the wrong road we went down for so long (her words). She just feels something is missing. She craves intimacy and connection and doesn't see how it can be with me.

I copied part of the account of the confrontation when she had returned from her military trip. Did you state any boundaries to her? This part is the closet thing I could find that appeared as an agreement: She agreed I was right to ask for no further disrespect and that it can't continue. Also, she had no problem with no private inappropriate relationships.

She agreed you were right, but did she agree to stop her bullying and disrespectful treatment? Did she agree to NC with OM? You say she had no problem with it, so I assumed she agreed to it. But, she has not lived up to it. In that conversation, did you say there would be any consequences if she continued to contact OM? I just need to know where you stand now.

Back to your initial thread after returning from the vacation, you said:

There were a few hiccups...one instance she went full "bully" mode and said some very hurtful things, which she did apologize for but I don't think it was wholehearted. It's interesting she tries to use our ending MR as a threat, despite already having played that card.

Of course it wasn't wholehearted! It was to put you in a holding pattern.

How would you act toward her after she apologized? How did you respond when she would threaten to end the MR?

She knows exactly where it hurts, but at this point all I think is...she is only undermining herself and her previous threats.

Your thinking seems to be more of a coping strategy when she bullies you. This goes back to what I was trying to tell you yesterday. You are trying to work around the main issues of her bullying by thinking she is undermining herself. So what if she is undermining herself? She doesn't see it. She only sees a H who will not stand up to her bullying him. Telling her she is being rude, or that she owes you an apology is not strong enough. You can word it differently, and may have a little affect the first couple of times, but eventually you are going to need to deal with it by using actions.

We went to a theme park and from the very beginning, she was texting excessively. Background/update: I know she has contact with OM. 100% confirmed, but it isn't obsessive like before and I have no knowledge of the content of the messages. However, she is shady and secretive to the hilt.

In other words, she is not honoring any type of transparency, and you aren't holding her to it. Look 44, it makes absolutely no difference the content of her messages with OM....or how many times she contacts him. She is hiding her texts, and she's contacting him, which violates transparency.

She will verbally tell me to give her physical space while she is on her phone and accuse me of spying or watching her. Has changed her password, hides her phone while showering, covers it while typing if I am within view, etc.

This is not acceptable. The cheater does not get to do these things and continue on in the MR.....unless you are okay with having an open MR.

Anyway, at the theme park, my patience wore thin and I asked her if she was going to text all day (I know, bad move).

Yes, it was a bad move. Stop asking her questions like this, and start telling her if she is going to text all day, it will be without your company.....and you leave her there and go on with your day in the park, totally ignoring her for the rest of the day.

She gave some ridiculous speech about how she is an adult and it isn't rude, look at everyone else on their phones, back off, blah blah. So I did,

See how you are trying to make it sound "ridiculous"? This is part of your coping mechanism.

In the end, you backed off just as she told you, but you did not leave her. You would see that action being too rude. So, you continue to endure the disrespect.

then she accused me of sucking the fun out of the day and that I had ruined it.

Now this is her being manipulative. She can accuse you or twist things around to put the blame on you....make you feel guilty, and she knows you will bend over backward to retreat to your nice-guy ways. Remember, I said she will use the guilt card? This is an example of how she uses it to control you.

She says maybe she will "hit me up" when they go and I can join so I can "still be a part of their lives". I KNOW to ignore all of these nonsensical comments she makes,

This is another example of your coping mech. See how you refer to it as nonsensical comments? It was a continuation of her bullying tactics. She pulled the threat card to remind you she was the one in control of this MR. You try to brush it off and tell yourself it was just nonsensical comments. She knew full well she jabbed you with that comment. It had a purpose, and it was intentional.

I couldn't hold back when she called me shady. I basically told her what makes her assume I would want to go to DL or even be friends with her when in fact she is the one who is shady as he11. I told her I know she is still in contact with OM, has continued to lie and be completely insensitive and unapologetic.

44, I'm not trying to give you a hard time. This is all I have to use to illustrate. What you said to her is true. But it sounds weak. It sounds as if you are more upset that she has been insensitive and unapologetic, than the fact she is being secretive and engaging in an EA with OM. Let me put it this way. It is not about her having good manners. It is about her cheating. She doesn't get to text OM, and then just apologize for it.

I have noticed when you try to stand up to her, you use the "rude" word a lot. "Rude" and "apologize". These two words mean nothing to a WW. She is calloused. She is not sensitive to your feelings. You are expecting a bully to be sensitive and mannerly? I strongly suggest that you temporarily remove these two words from your vocabulary when speaking with her. They don't seem to be very effective.

Of course, she got very defensive saying things like I am assuming and it's not what I think, etc.

That was the perfect time to say, "If it is not what I think, then you'll have no problem letting me see your phone".

This was the point you should have held her accountable. She had said the day of confrontation she had no problem with "no private, inappropriate relationships". So, why did you allow this to just slide?

Yesterday she moped around the house, surprisingly wasn't rude to me but so over-the-top with her pouting. She actually got a deck of cards out to play solitaire in the living room.

And what is your go-to plan when she pouts and has a pity party b/c you left the house to do something with some friends the day before? This is another form of her playing the guilt card. She wanted to make you feel badly.

I really struggle with the fact that she resents me and has so much hurt, because I know I am not perfect and have probably done some very hurtful things, but I feel with her being wayward I am not supposed to have remorse or apologize for anything.

This resentment of hers does not necessarily mean it is merited. You don't even know what she wanted or what you did to make her resentful. The resentment/disrespect factors become enmeshed after a point. Just b/c a W is resentful, does not mean the H is guilty of anything. Please get that in your head.

Here's the thing I see in you. You are trying to change positions and put yourself in the role as abuser. For you, it would be so much easier if you could be the one at fault, b/c you would have no problem with remorse and apologizing for doing whatever. You want to take the place of the bad guy. If you were the abuser, and she was wanting out of that situation, then she would be a walk-away W. She is clearly not a WAW. Sorry, but you just aren't the bad guy in this case. You are too nice, too gentle, and too passive for this military WW. She likes to control you, and she'll stoop to whatever level necessary to do it.

I understand I need to regain her respect which may breed attraction, but how will that wash away her resentment when I have not sincerely owned my mistakes and given her a formal apology? The book describes how compassion is the only antidote; I am trying to find that balance of being compassionate toward her but also intolerant to her disrespect. It is tricky!

The book is not about wayward wives! Please, just put it down b/c it is scr@wing with your head. You are not an abuser! She has a wayward mindset. You cannot apologize away that waywardness. Do you get that? You still want to use a form of nicing her back by being sweet, understanding, compassionate, etc. Those are wonderful traits in a MR.....but it just won't cut it with a WW.

Actually, I think it was the talk we had when she came home that really set me back.

No, that's not what set you back. Not following through with actions, set you back.

[44tries]

I copied part of the account of the confrontation when she had returned from her military trip. Did you state any boundaries to her? This part is the closet thing I could find that appeared as an agreement: She agreed I was right to ask for no further disrespect and that it can't continue. Also, she had no problem with no private inappropriate relationships.

She agreed you were right, but did she agree to stop her bullying and disrespectful treatment? Did she agree to NC with OM? You say she had no problem with it, so I assumed she agreed to it. But, she has not lived up to it. In that conversation, did you say there would be any consequences if she continued to contact OM? I just need to know where you stand now.

The two boundaries I stated were the ones we had discussed--respect and transparency. The problem is that without her recommittal I don't really have the ability to enforce them since they were originally framed as requirements for a recommitted relationship going forward. She agreed to stop the disrespect and this I can (and am) enforce(ing). It still happens, but I am way past the jumping when she says frog stuff. The transparency is more of an issue because she claims she is transparent! And then turns it around on me to claim I am not. I don't know how to enforce this boundary because if she wants to be non-transparent, she will be, plain and simple. My internal response to this crossed boundary is what is actually driving me toward wanting nothing to do with her.

Back to your initial thread after returning from the vacation, you said:
How would you act toward her after she apologized? How did you respond when she would threaten to end the MR?

Passive, which is a problem. I acknowledged the apology in the briefest way possible and didn't change my mood. Threats to end the MR I just straight up ignore because they are outside of my limit of rationality. I would love to hear your thoughts on having stronger responses, because I feel if I actually open my mouth it just turns into a nasty argument. I need to break that same old dance cycle where I argue logically against her manipulative antics. I need to feel confident I can quickly defuse it and walk away the "winner" of the clash.

Your thinking seems to be more of a coping strategy when she bullies you. This goes back to what I was trying to tell you yesterday. You are trying to work around the main issues of her bullying by thinking she is undermining herself. So what if she is undermining herself? She doesn't see it. She only sees a H who will not stand up to her bullying him. Telling her she is being rude, or that she owes you an apology is not strong enough. You can word it differently, and may have a little affect the first couple of times, but eventually you are going to need to deal with it by using actions.

I completely understand. I am trying to get a better grasp on what those actions should be so I have them coming as second-nature.

In other words, she is not honoring any type of transparency, and you aren't holding her to it. Look 44, it makes absolutely no difference the content of her messages with OM....or how many times she contacts him. She is hiding her texts, and she's contacting him, which violates transparency.

100%. But she will deny she sees it that way.

This is not acceptable. The cheater does not get to do these things and continue on in the MR.....unless you are okay with having an open MR.

The issue is she isn't continuing on in the MR. So she thinks she has licensed herself. What do I do? Tell her her license is phony?

See how you are trying to make it sound "ridiculous"? This is part of your coping mechanism.

This is insightful.

Now this is her being manipulative. She can accuse you or twist things around to put the blame on you....make you feel guilty, and she knows you will bend over backward to retreat to your nice-guy ways. Remember, I said she will use the guilt card? This is an example of how she uses it to control you.

Got it. I see it clearly and recognized it at the time. She can no longer get me to chase at all by trying to blame me, and she's getting frustrated. Has been testing me over and over on it the past couple days.

This is another example of your coping mech. See how you refer to it as nonsensical comments? It was a continuation of her bullying tactics. She pulled the threat card to remind you she was the one in control of this MR. You try to brush it off and tell yourself it was just nonsensical comments. She knew full well she jabbed you with that comment. It had a purpose, and it was intentional.

Again, insightful. Exactly what I needed to hear, thanks.

44, I'm not trying to give you a hard time. This is all I have to use to illustrate. What you said to her is true. But it sounds weak. It sounds as if you are more upset that she has been insensitive and unapologetic, than the fact she is being secretive and engaging in an EA with OM. Let me put it this way. It is not about her having good manners. It is about her cheating. She doesn't get to text OM, and then just apologize for it.

Don't worry, I know. I see the problem, I'm still working on figuring out how to fix it. I can't be too direct or it's weak, and that's where I struggle. My default is to just always be direct and honest, and it really fails here.

I have noticed when you try to stand up to her, you use the "rude" word a lot. "Rude" and "apologize". These two words mean nothing to a WW. She is calloused. She is not sensitive to your feelings. You are expecting a bully to be sensitive and mannerly? I strongly suggest that you temporarily remove these two words from your vocabulary when speaking with her. They don't seem to be very effective.

This is really good advice, thanks. Cheeseless tunnel, for sure.

That was the perfect time to say, "If it is not what I think, then you'll have no problem letting me see your phone".

This was the point you should have held her accountable. She had said the day of confrontation she had no problem with "no private, inappropriate relationships". So, why did you allow this to just slide?

So what do I do when she squirms and deflects and denies? She will just fight me to the death and I don't know how to respond to that.

And what is your go-to plan when she pouts and has a pity party b/c you left the house to do something with some friends the day before? This is another form of her playing the guilt card. She wanted to make you feel badly.

That's exactly what she wanted and she can't do it anymore because I see through it. My go-to plan is to completely ignore it, if she is doing the passive-aggressive pouting like playing solitaire. If she comes at me with accusations, I say something polite and diplomatic that essentially says, "I'm not having this conversation." If she continues to push, I become angrier and less polite, and try to figure out how to tell her she's insane without saying those words. Please tell me how I can improve these responses.

This resentment of hers does not necessarily mean it is merited. You don't even know what she wanted or what you did to make her resentful. The resentment/disrespect factors become enmeshed after a point. Just b/c a W is resentful, does not mean the H is guilty of anything. Please get that in your head.

^^^^^^THIS is incredibly helpful, thank you.

Here's the thing I see in you. You are trying to change positions and put yourself in the role as abuser. For you, it would be so much easier if you could be the one at fault, b/c you would have no problem with remorse and apologizing for doing whatever. You want to take the place of the bad guy. If you were the abuser, and she was wanting out of that situation, then she would be a walk-away W. She is clearly not a WAW. Sorry, but you just aren't the bad guy in this case. You are too nice, too gentle, and too passive for this military WW. She likes to control you, and she'll stoop to whatever level necessary to do it.

This is all exactly what I'm starting to realize and I am removing myself from that abuser role more everyday. I am no longer blaming myself for things or underestimating her. But I am concerned about becoming too self-righteous.

The book is not about wayward wives! Please, just put it down b/c it is scr@wing with your head. You are not an abuser! She has a wayward mindset. You cannot apologize away that waywardness. Do you get that? You still want to use a form of nicing her back by being sweet, understanding, compassionate, etc. Those are wonderful traits in a MR.....but it just won't cut it with a WW.

Makes perfect sense. I will throw it away (for now). Recognizing every form of nicing her back and eliminating it from my plans is high on my priority list right now.


Whew, it has taken me three days to write this post because I have been so busy and have to stop and come back. Apologies if it is disjointed and super long.

Aside from being jam-packed, I had a fun, pretty positive weekend.

Friday night I went to my GAL friend's birthday party (had a fantastic time). At first, W was obviously unhappy. She called to me while I was showering and getting ready to tell me she lost her wallet and no one at work could find it, she needed mine. I said sure, it's by the door where it always is. She then comes up the stairs and point blank demands I go get her money out of an ATM. I said you're welcome to take my card and do it yourself, I'm not sure why you are asking me, sorry I'm busy and you know that. That actually sounds polite compared to reality, because with her demanding rather than asking, I just wasn't having any of it from the beginning. But here's the real mind-bender: She gave up and went back to watching TV; I go downstairs and her wallet is sitting right on her desk in the office! I ask her what's going on and she freely admits she was testing me.

She then initiates an R talk. Essentially, she tells me she doesn't like my detachment and the distance between us. Me: "Uh, okay, well what do you expect? Sorry I have to do what's best for me." She said she can tell I have changed and she isn't sure she likes the new me (my potentially wrong mind-read: you are no longer a pushover and that frustrates me, but I also have more respect for you). She went a lot into how she doesn't think I could trust her again and she will always be criminalized, etc etc. I told her I know my own capacity for forgiveness, but that perhaps she is in a different place based on her previous comments about not knowing how to forgive (my words, not hers, but an essential summary). She said she has been struggling with whether or not she should come to me and tell me all the details so that the record is straight and I know the truth. She also said she knows I think they are still in contact, and tried to assure me there is nothing there and if they do have any (infrequent) contact, it's about work (don't worry, I'm not eating this up). She said [the affair] was all talk and "talk is trash".

She flip-flopped a lot asking these sort of questions about if we could get past it, saying she still thinks she needs space, and also being pretty open to what I suggested. I didn't want to push too much, but I got the sense that if I proposed something specific, she might be willing to do it. Then again, she also brought up me leaving for a couple months again so who knows. The thing about her fixation on needing space is that she doesn't really know. She won't say she wants a trial separation, she won't say she has a final answer and wants to be done, she won't say she wants to commit to trying again, etc. I asked her to look me and the eye and tell me she really wanted me to leave (temporarily) and she couldn't. The conversation ended with her saying she wants what is best for both of us and I should think about it and if it's more comfortable for me to stay here, she supports it. The topic is tabled once again and I leave for the party.

I got home (very late) and she was sleeping in the bed. I climbed in and she rubbed my back and asked if I had a good time. We slept, not cuddling really, but close, touching. That day we did some errands and went to a movie and dinner and an outdoor concert. No other friends, just the two of us, we had a really nice time. It's hard to describe, and I kept wondering if it's all in my head, but it's like I can tangibly feel the dynamic changes. I can tell when she is feeling closer without her actually doing anything different. It's slow and ebbs and flows, but that day I had that feeling like "hey, the pool is definitely getting warmer". Her being genuinely nice to me and not disrespectful probably helps.

Then yesterday. Another good day, we hung out with a friend, went swimming, and he came over for dinner and drinks/games. The metaphorical pool was still feeling tangibly warmer. We made a lot of food, snacks, and such. At one point, we were making cookies and the friend was outside. I am thinking in my head that I cannot be imagining how warm the water is getting. W and I make eye contact, lean closer to each other past the point where everyone watching the movie knows you're about to kiss, and she says "do you want to kiss me?" So I did. Just a short, sweet kiss like you would give while cooking together and that was that.

I have to say the thing I am most happy about is her telling me how much I have changed. That tells me my efforts are getting me somewhere. I definitely think I have at least gained a little respect back at this point (and apparently a bit of attraction). I am treating any positive signs as just that and keeping my head down. Remembering it's a marathon and nothing is in a hurry. I still have a long way to go. I can also see my newfound objectivity. I am no longer hyper-focused on the idea of reconciling, but rather in doing what is best for me.

[sandi2]

The two boundaries I stated were the ones we had discussed--respect and transparency. The problem is that without her recommittal I don't really have the ability to enforce them since they were originally framed as requirements for a recommitted relationship going forward.

Let me see if I can clarify it a little. You don't have to have her commitment, in order for her to show respect. When she shows disrespect, you will call her out on it....and (depending on the disrespectful act) you will do something that basically has some type of consequences for her show of disrespect. That's why I was asking you what you did when you were in the theme park and she showed disrespect toward you. When you ignore her disrespectful actions (hiding to text her boyfriend) and her talking down to you or belittling you.....her feelings of disrespect will increase and she'll lose more attraction for you. Therefore, don't let her get away with disrespecting you.

When a couple has had some form of betrayal in their MR, transparency can be a means of strengthening the trust for the betrayed S, and help keep the cheating S on track while going through withdrawals. It's a way of holding her accountable, and invites you to see what she is doing. Any W who has nothing to hide, will gladly let her H take a look. Therefore, the spouse who was guilty of cheating, has to cooperate....to make transparency work. This is why there has to be an agreement about the transparency plan. She may have said she didn't have a problem with "no inappropriate relationships", but apparently, the part of her showing her text messages, fell through the cracks. If the cheater is not willing to be transparent, then you can bet they are still cheating. She can call it trash all day long, but it still spells an EA.

I believe you named respect and transparency as the two things you would need, in order to remain in the MR. Therefore, if she doesn't give you a "final answer", and the two of you continue living like a M couple......it is a win-win for her. She gets her cake with a heap of icing. Look at the vacation trip, that immediately followed the confrontation. Look at the two great fun filled days the two of you enjoyed together since returning home......living just like a normal M couple. Why would she be prompted to stop texting OM and be transparent, if she can have this nice MR without giving up her affair partner? See what I mean? She is continuing her EA while benefiting from the MR, too. She has had no consequences for her cheating. My question is why you've gone along with whatever she wanted....when she has left you dangling in the air without a "final answer" (as you call it)? I mean....what is your game plan? IMHO, you should have never agreed to go on a fun vacation when the MR is pending. Anyway, you are back home now, so what's next?

To be clear,44, this is your M....not mine. So, it is entirely up to you if you continue to put up with her cheating. I think you were originally hoping to build the respect and attraction back. (That was before the big talk after she returned from her trip.) Are you wanting to wait out the EA? I'm just concerned that she'll find a new OM when this one fizzles out. Her feelings for you will not return as long as she has some other guy giving her an emotional thrill. But, I won't repeat all this again, b/c we have gone over it in the past.

Threats to end the MR I just straight up ignore because they are outside of my limit of rationality. I would love to hear your thoughts on having stronger responses, because I feel if I actually open my mouth it just turns into a nasty argument.

She sees you dependent upon her, and she believes you are afraid of losing the MR. Threats to end the M, is a form of bullying. You cannot ignore a bully. Parents give the wrong message when they tell their kids to just ignore the school yard bully, b/c bullies become worse. You have to deal with them head on. If it were me, I'd call her bluff. Seems like it would be better than having her hold that threat over your head all the time.

How would I handle her threats of ending the M? I'd show her the door and tell her to get with it. But, that's just me. That's my personality, b/c I am not going to beg my spouse to like me or stay with me. I am not going to tolerate that type of treatment. If my spouse was threatening to end our M.....I'd personally walk him to the door and show him out, or I'd pack my bags and leave.

If she won't leave, and won't shut up, then you need to be prepared to leave the house. She brings up this thing about you should leave for a couple of months.......and it's just more bulling. It needs to stop. I don't think she'll ever desire you sexually, if she can control you with these threats. I believe her "not sure if she likes the new you" is b/c she sees you being more independent, and it's not as easy to "manage" you when you're acting like a grown-a$$ man.

FWIW, some men can put a shut down a lot of b.s. from their W, simply by using their authoritative voice. Do you know what I mean?

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

That was the perfect time to say, "If it is not what I think, then you'll have no problem letting me see your phone".

This was the point you should have held her accountable. She had said the day of confrontation she had no problem with "no private, inappropriate relationships". So, why did you allow this to just slide?

So what do I do when she squirms and deflects and denies? She will just fight me to the death and I don't know how to respond to that.

Well, you don't scuffle with her to get the phone. She has pretty much given herself away. You need to decide right now which hill you want to die on. If you say you are not going to stay in a M with a third party, inappropriate relationships, dishonesty, or whatever..... and she is not showing herself to be trustworthy, then it's time for you to take action. If you ask to see her phone (not after she deletes her messages) and she refuses, then you need to start taking steps to separate. I think you know it in your heart, but you had rather "ignore" it. It boils down to this......she is contacting her OM, so what are you going to do about it?

This is all exactly what I'm starting to realize and I am removing myself from that abuser role more everyday. I am no longer blaming myself for things or underestimating her. But I am concerned about becoming too self-righteous.

I am relieved to hear it. I have never seen anything in your posts that hinted at self-righteousness. You should know that I would have called your hand on it.

I will have to continue this in next post.

[sandi2]

Continued from previous post:

But here's the real mind-bender: She gave up and went back to watching TV; I go downstairs and her wallet is sitting right on her desk in the office! I ask her what's going on and she freely admits she was testing me.

How did you respond? Did she bother to tell you what the test was about? This is very unacceptable behavior, 44. She enjoys pulling your chain.

She then initiates an R talk. Essentially, she tells me she doesn't like my detachment and the distance between us.

So, she doesn't like you being distance, but she wants to have space!

Let me interpret it, b/c this is written in WW code.

You being distant = You being unavailable to her.

Her having space = Her having privacy.

She went a lot into how she doesn't think I could trust her again and she will always be criminalized, etc etc. I told her I know my own capacity for forgiveness, but that perhaps she is in a different place based on her previous comments about not knowing how to forgiv

This is an example of how a WW will pull the old switcheroo by putting words into the H's mouth......and it's usually something about not sure he can ever trust her again, yada, yada. It is WW b.s. Don't start telling her anything about your capacity to forgive, etc. Don't start trying to convince her that you'll forgive her, b/c that has nothing to do with her little game here. Don't say a word. Just look at her with a poker face. She needs to be concerned that you might not forgive her! Stop reassuring her that you are eager to forgive, or that you've already forgiven her. If she should ever truly become remorseful and repent, then you can tell her.

She said she has been struggling with whether or not she should come to me and tell me all the details so that the record is straight and I know the truth. She also said she knows I think they are still in contact, and tried to assure me there is nothing there and if they do have any (infrequent) contact, it's about work (don't worry, I'm not eating this up). She said [the affair] was all talk and "talk is trash".

Of course she is in contact with him....she just admitted it! Why else would she be so secretive? She can use little quips to describe her affair, trying to make it sound insignificant, but it was an EA. She is still contacting him b/c she is addicted to how it makes her feel. Don't believe affair partners change their status from AP to just friends. If they are just friends, then she'll have no problem when you reach for her phone to look at her messages. That is what transparency is all about. The cheater cannot hide messages, and have secret/private "friendships". I guarantee you that she would not stand for you privately texting another woman!

She flip-flopped a lot asking these sort of questions about if we could get past it, saying she still thinks she needs space, and also being pretty open to what I suggested. I didn't want to push too much, but I got the sense that if I proposed something specific, she might be willing to do it. Then again, she also brought up me leaving for a couple months again so who knows.

This conversation was to secure her position. I don't know how you responded, but you are afraid to push too much, so you must have sounded as if you were encouraging her to work on the MR. IMHO, when a WW is using these type of comments....she is testing her H. She is not serious about working on the MR. She is merely letting him know that she is still in charge. It would be better if he didn't say anything, and let her wonder what he's thinking.

She won't say she wants a trial separation, she won't say she has a final answer and wants to be done, she won't say she wants to commit to trying again, etc. I asked her to look me and the eye and tell me she really wanted me to leave (temporarily) and she couldn't. The conversation ended with her saying she wants what is best for both of us and I should think about it and if it's more comfortable for me to stay here, she supports it. The topic is tabled once again and I leave for the party.

44, it is going to continue to be tabled! This is how she stays in charge of the relationship. Can you not see it? Why on earth are you waiting for a "final answer"? Remember after the confrontation talk, and how she left things unanswered? That kept her in charge and kept you dangling. She's done it again.

I have to say the thing I am most happy about is her telling me how much I have changed. That tells me my efforts are getting me somewhere. I definitely think I have at least gained a little respect back at this point (and apparently a bit of attraction). I am treating any positive signs as just that and keeping my head down. Remembering it's a marathon and nothing is in a hurry. I still have a long way to go. I can also see my newfound objectivity. I am no longer hyper-focused on the idea of reconciling, but rather in doing what is best for me.

That's good to hear.

[44tries]

Let me see if I can clarify it a little. You don't have to have her commitment, in order for her to show respect. When she shows disrespect, you will call her out on it....and (depending on the disrespectful act) you will do something that basically has some type of consequences for her show of disrespect. That's why I was asking you what you did when you were in the theme park and she showed disrespect toward you. When you ignore her disrespectful actions (hiding to text her boyfriend) and her talking down to you or belittling you.....her feelings of disrespect will increase and she'll lose more attraction for you. Therefore, don't let her get away with disrespecting you.

I understand. The commitment is more of an issue for the transparency boundary than the respect one. I am fully on board with calling out her disrespect and it has become habitual for me to do so. I have a little more trouble with the consequence part. I'm not going to ignore her texting, but as I've written before I struggle with not sounding weak by simply calling her out or making a wimpy comment. But I know in this instance, the consequence should have been me walking away and leaving her there. I need to get better at quickly knowing these types of responses. In general, will the consequence be along the lines of me removing myself and no longer interacting with her? That is becoming my default response to disrespect.

When a couple has had some form of betrayal in their MR, transparency can be a means of strengthening the trust for the betrayed S, and help keep the cheating S on track while going through withdrawals. It's a way of holding her accountable, and invites you to see what she is doing. Any W who has nothing to hide, will gladly let her H take a look. Therefore, the spouse who was guilty of cheating, has to cooperate....to make transparency work. This is why there has to be an agreement about the transparency plan. She may have said she didn't have a problem with "no inappropriate relationships", but apparently, the part of her showing her text messages, fell through the cracks. If the cheater is not willing to be transparent, then you can bet they are still cheating. She can call it trash all day long, but it still spells an EA.

Completely agree. She seemed to think she was being transparent until I told her what that meant. Her response to that was basically defensiveness and evasion. The problem is that she is never going to show me her text messages and it isn't because of an A or having something to hide. She is picky about personal space and privacy and has been since day one. However, the main issue is her attitude about it. If she isn't comfortable with me directly reading her messages, we can find other ways to have transparency that satisfy both of us. The real issue is her dropping the defensive stance and understanding why extra steps are necessary at this time to restore trust (again, restoring trust is not a priority for her like it would be with recommitment). She can't seem to concede the fact that it is natural for me to need more transparency than I normally would before the A. It's the whole resistance to being in that weaker role of truly admitting she did something very wrong and needs to be fully remorseful, etc.

I believe you named respect and transparency as the two things you would need, in order to remain in the MR. Therefore, if she doesn't give you a "final answer", and the two of you continue living like a M couple......it is a win-win for her. She gets her cake with a heap of icing. Look at the vacation trip, that immediately followed the confrontation. Look at the two great fun filled days the two of you enjoyed together since returning home......living just like a normal M couple. Why would she be prompted to stop texting OM and be transparent, if she can have this nice MR without giving up her affair partner? See what I mean? She is continuing her EA while benefiting from the MR, too. She has had no consequences for her cheating. My question is why you've gone along with whatever she wanted....when she has left you dangling in the air without a "final answer" (as you call it)? I mean....what is your game plan? IMHO, you should have never agreed to go on a fun vacation when the MR is pending. Anyway, you are back home now, so what's next?

This is an issue I am well aware of and know needs to be addressed. I fully see the problem, don't worry. I don't think final answer is a good term and understand why you put it in quotes. I understand this is a slow process and she isn't going to have any overnight changes of heart, feelings, behavior, etc. If her A is out of the picture, I don't see a reason to be too pushy about recommitment or labels. Especially because she is stubborn and I think there are a lot of steps for her to go before she is near making anything "official", if that makes sense. I find myself at odds with the whole DB philosophy of non-pursuit when I think about how to demand more so that she isn't cake eating. Again, if the A is out, is it cake-eating to do "couple" things before I have total recommitment? Or is there a stage where she is in the turnaround process and I shouldn't be shutting everything down?

To be clear,44, this is your M....not mine. So, it is entirely up to you if you continue to put up with her cheating. I think you were originally hoping to build the respect and attraction back. (That was before the big talk after she returned from her trip.) Are you wanting to wait out the EA? I'm just concerned that she'll find a new OM when this one fizzles out. Her feelings for you will not return as long as she has some other guy giving her an emotional thrill. But, I won't repeat all this again, b/c we have gone over it in the past.

These are very valid concerns that I have as well. Obviously, I can't go by anything she says, which has remained that she ended the A two months ago. So I can't know anything for sure, but I have not seen any sign of OM contact since the trip. I do not think it is appropriate for them to have contact of any kind ever, and if we ever do get to recommitment this will be something I draw a hard line about, but right now I do not believe there is an active relationship between them.

She sees you dependent upon her, and she believes you are afraid of losing the MR. Threats to end the M, is a form of bullying. You cannot ignore a bully. Parents give the wrong message when they tell their kids to just ignore the school yard bully, b/c bullies become worse. You have to deal with them head on. If it were me, I'd call her bluff. Seems like it would be better than having her hold that threat over your head all the time.

This is good advice because you are right, it is effectively bullying and the best thing to do is probably to call her bluffs. I've already gained confidence that it is all a bluff, but I should just completely rid myself of any hesitations and not be afraid to be fairly aggressive about the bluff-calling.

How would I handle her threats of ending the M? I'd show her the door and tell her to get with it. But, that's just me. That's my personality, b/c I am not going to beg my spouse to like me or stay with me. I am not going to tolerate that type of treatment. If my spouse was threatening to end our M.....I'd personally walk him to the door and show him out, or I'd pack my bags and leave.

Noted.

If she won't leave, and won't shut up, then you need to be prepared to leave the house. She brings up this thing about you should leave for a couple of months.......and it's just more bulling. It needs to stop. I don't think she'll ever desire you sexually, if she can control you with these threats. I believe her "not sure if she likes the new you" is b/c she sees you being more independent, and it's not as easy to "manage" you when you're acting like a grown-a$$ man.

Her control becomes less all the time. Perhaps I can be harsher and the whole thing will speed up, but while I'm moving in the right direction and constantly reminding myself the changes can only happen slowly anyway, I struggle with knowing just how much to push.

FWIW, some men can put a shut down a lot of b.s. from their W, simply by using their authoritative voice. Do you know what I mean?

Yes, I do. I have been working on male dominance stuff which includes body language and voice and it definitely helps. Again, I don't know if I should be looking for some kind of instant change (in both her and myself), or if realistically the progress I'm making is, for the most part, what I'm aiming toward.

That was the perfect time to say, "If it is not what I think, then you'll have no problem letting me see your phone".

This was the point you should have held her accountable. She had said the day of confrontation she had no problem with "no private, inappropriate relationships". So, why did you allow this to just slide?

Great question, and I should not have let the conversation move away from the direct accountability I could have demanded in the moment. If OM contact becomes an issue again and this type of conversation occurs, I won't make the same mistake.

Well, you don't scuffle with her to get the phone. She has pretty much given herself away. You need to decide right now which hill you want to die on. If you say you are not going to stay in a M with a third party, inappropriate relationships, dishonesty, or whatever..... and she is not showing herself to be trustworthy, then it's time for you to take action. If you ask to see her phone (not after she deletes her messages) and she refuses, then you need to start taking steps to separate. I think you know it in your heart, but you had rather "ignore" it. It boils down to this......she is contacting her OM, so what are you going to do about it?

Understood and agreed. As I mentioned above, OM doesn't seem to be a present issue. If the contact had continued or resumes again, I don't have much tolerance left (not that I should have had any to begin with). I can be patient and do the whole limbo thing if there isn't a third party, but if the lies go on, I have to be done. This was essentially the message I sent at the theme park and I have no real way to know it's effect other than that I haven't seen OM contact since.

I am relieved to hear it. I have never seen anything in your posts that hinted at self-righteousness. You should know that I would have called your hand on it.

This is great to hear and I know you would It is most likely just the unnatural feeling of removing myself from the bad-guy role.

How did you respond? Did she bother to tell you what the test was about? This is very unacceptable behavior, 44. She enjoys pulling your chain.

I told her she was unbelievable and walked away. She did not directly say what the test was about and I don't think it was even coherent in her mind, really. It boiled down to feeling like she was losing power and testing to see how much she still had i.e. could she get me to set aside my time while I was busy to prioritize her. I can see right through this now, so it isn't going to work.

So, she doesn't like you being distance, but she wants to have space!

Let me interpret it, b/c this is written in WW code.

You being distant = You being unavailable to her.

Her having space = Her having privacy.

Nailed it. Luckily, I am learning this code. Yes, it made no logical sense to complain about the distant environment and then also cry for space. However, I was no longer bewildered. It makes perfect sense in WW speak.

This is an example of how a WW will pull the old switcheroo by putting words into the H's mouth......and it's usually something about not sure he can ever trust her again, yada, yada. It is WW b.s. Don't start telling her anything about your capacity to forgive, etc. Don't start trying to convince her that you'll forgive her, b/c that has nothing to do with her little game here. Don't say a word. Just look at her with a poker face. She needs to be concerned that you might not forgive her! Stop reassuring her that you are eager to forgive, or that you've already forgiven her. If she should ever truly become remorseful and repent, then you can tell her.

Great reminders. Still have to stop myself from trying to meet the WW with logic or be fooled into thinking her concern is real. One question, is true remorse/repentance going to coincide with recommitment or could those be separate states/events?

Of course she is in contact with him....she just admitted it! Why else would she be so secretive? She can use little quips to describe her affair, trying to make it sound insignificant, but it was an EA. She is still contacting him b/c she is addicted to how it makes her feel. Don't believe affair partners change their status from AP to just friends. If they are just friends, then she'll have no problem when you reach for her phone to look at her messages. That is what transparency is all about. The cheater cannot hide messages, and have secret/private "friendships". I guarantee you that she would not stand for you privately texting another woman!

HA, absolutely not. And I will never accept them being "friends". I can't control her and if we aren't together she can be "friends" with whoever she wants, but like I said before I will have none of it while I'm still here. The secretive behavior has thankfully stopped, but I am wary because of exactly what you say about the addiction. I'm not letting my guard down.

This conversation was to secure her position. I don't know how you responded, but you are afraid to push too much, so you must have sounded as if you were encouraging her to work on the MR. IMHO, when a WW is using these type of comments....she is testing her H. She is not serious about working on the MR. She is merely letting him know that she is still in charge. It would be better if he didn't say anything, and let her wonder what he's thinking.

Understood. So my question is, when can I start showing any encouragement to work on the MR. Wait for her to explicitly go there? Or at least cut out all the back and forth securing her position stuff? I'm assuming it will be an obvious difference, but I'm also afraid of being too optimistic...remember slow, subtle changes are the name of the game...

44, it is going to continue to be tabled! This is how she stays in charge of the relationship. Can you not see it? Why on earth are you waiting for a "final answer"? Remember after the confrontation talk, and how she left things unanswered? That kept her in charge and kept you dangling. She's done it again.

I see it.


Right now I am staying vigilant about her disrespectful behavior, not getting comfortable with the status of OM, and continuing my self focus and growth, GAL, etc. My family is visiting and I have had long days, no normalcy to my routine or being able to post, which I am so ready to get back to (as much as I enjoy having them here). My GAL is going great; almost overwhelming. I have people inviting me to do things all the time and I'm trying to find balance. I have learned more about myself and my NGS (fear of displeasing people, saying no, etc).

W and I are sharing the bed while my family visits. It is amazing how passive aggression and manipulation are sooo imbedded into how she communicates. I don't think she knows any other way and that is a little scary. She is so stubborn about not wanting to seem too positive about anything/me. If she wants me close to her she tries the old "I'm cold" trick. Before my family arrived, she came to the bed a day early and was again making sure she clarified there was some reason she was sleeping there. Some of that stubbornness is subsiding though. There are days she is pretty relaxed about having her guard down. She is definitely warmer, treating me better; more of the good, less of the bad. I need to make sure I don't let my own guard down and lose any ground on the respect front.

[sandi2]

My family is visiting and I have had long days, no normalcy to my routine or being able to post, which I am so ready to get back to (as much as I enjoy having them here)

I am relieved to hear it. I was very concerned that we were losing you. I was worried that you felt too much pressure and was fading away. I want to teach/show you what I can, but if it becomes too much or pushy......just tell me. As you may can tell, I can get rather.......passionate. (Yeah, that's a good word).

I am fully on board with calling out her disrespect and it has become habitual for me to do so. I have a little more trouble with the consequence part

Well, a lot of the consequences for the more minor acts of disrespect is just you calling her out on it, and then walking away and leaving her alone. Some other things may require you to tell her.......

"You are very unattractive when you try to bully me".

"i don't desire your company when you act this way, so I will be spending the day/night being with people I do enjoy".

I'm not going to ignore her texting, but as I've written before I struggle with not sounding weak by simply calling her out or making a wimpy comment. But I know in this instance, the consequence should have been me walking away and leaving her there.

You're learning.

I need to get better at quickly knowing these types of responses. In general, will the consequence be along the lines of me removing myself and no longer interacting with her? That is becoming my default response to disrespect.

Yes, generally. When you are home together and she does something.......like the "testing game", or whatever, call her out on it and immediately get ready to leave the house. No information, just tell her you are going out......and for her not to be bothering you with texts.

The problem is that she is never going to show me her text messages and it isn't because of an A or having something to hide. She is picky about personal space and privacy and has been since day one. However, the main issue is her attitude about it. If she isn't comfortable with me directly reading her messages, we can find other ways to have transparency that satisfy both of us

What do you have in mind, that will satisfy both of you? And let me just explain something about transparency. The spouse that betrayed the trust, doesn't get to choose the form of transparency. The faithful spouse decides what he will need to feel safe in the MR again. It's not like you have a discussion to see what she'll agree to do. If she is still contacting the same OM, or has a new OM (which I suspect is the case), she is not going to want to disclose her private text messages. Without seeing her text messages, what other means would you have to check? Doesn't she do all her communicating over her phone?

You say she's always been picky about personal space and privacy. Well, I am too. At least to an extent, but I don't keep secrets from my H. There's the difference. Her "privacy" is really all about her secrets. There should be none of that type of stuff in a MR.

When did you explain to her what real transparency would mean? Before or after the theme park day?

Here is your problem, as I see it. The big talk ended without her saying yea or nay......so, nothing was really settled. So, what do you do in the meantime? What if she never offers commitment? Honestly, if she wouldn't commit when you had the big talk, I don't think she'll ever do it.....apart from her actually seeing you walking away from the M. To her, relationships are all about who holds the power. To her, submission is weakness. To cooperate with your terms is seen as giving up her control/power, which leaves her in a weak position. That's why she clings to stubbornness.

I suppose you will know when you've had enough......at least, I hope you will. Just don't rationalize away her bad behavior. Some spouses do it, in order to live with their horrible partner......but what a way to live your life!

I don't think final answer is a good term and understand why you put it in quotes. I understand this is a slow process and she isn't going to have any overnight changes of heart, feelings, behavior, etc.

I think we need to clarify about the "slow process". A wayward can make the decision to "do the right thing" and enter into an agreement/commitment with her H, although her feelings has not changed. This is what I did in my sitch. My loving feelings did not return until after I repented, which took a while.......(seems I had some stubborn issues of my own). Anyway, you are correct that there won't be any overnight changes in her heart/feelings.......not until she repents, anyway. However, if she agreed to do what you needed, she could stop her disrespectful behavior (by her own volition), even if she never felt remorse.

What I wonder about is if you are looking at the two of you being in this slow process........as in her changing from a wayward mindset. B/c she has not agreed to "do the right thing". She's made no commitment, no transparency, no change, no offer to cooperate. She won't even offer proof her EA ended. Therefore, i dare say that your WW is not in any type of change or process. She is still in rebellion. (You referred to her stubborness. Part of it is rebellion to submit or even cooperate under the conduct codes of the MR). Do you understand what I mean? She is not in the process of changing from the wayward status. I just want you to clearly understand that this is not like a reconciliation where she is trying to do the right thing to save the M. The two of you simply continued doing what you were already doing.

Yes, you are making positive changes, but she never agreed to work on the MR........right? Perhaps I am making too much out of what you said.

I'm going to continue with a new post.

[SteveLW]

The problem is that she is never going to show me her text messages and it isn't because of an A or having something to hide. She is picky about personal space and privacy and has been since day one. However, the main issue is her attitude about it. If she isn't comfortable with me directly reading her messages, we can find other ways to have transparency that satisfy both of us

This should end when two lives become one. The problem is that people go into marriage not really understanding what marriage really is. A sandi said, there should be no secrets in a marriage.

A person that defends hiding something is a person with something to hide.

[sandi2]

Continued from my previous long winded post..........

If she isn't comfortable with me directly reading her messages, we can find other ways to have transparency that satisfy both of us. The real issue is her dropping the defensive stance and understanding why extra steps are necessary at this time to restore trust (again, restoring trust is not a priority for her like it would be with recommitment). She can't seem to concede the fact that it is natural for me to need more transparency than I normally would before the A. It's the whole resistance to being in that weaker role of truly admitting she did something very wrong and needs to be fully remorseful, etc

Look 44, she understands a lot more than you give her credit. The whole defensive attitude comes from her guilt. You have always been submissive to whatever she wanted, however she wanted it. She thinks if she holds out long enough, you'll eventually give up. I'll have to say it kind of sounds like you want to back peddle on some things. You sound like a man who doesn't know how to enforce his boundaries......so you want to stop "pushing & labeling", and just go with the flow (which is code for a nice-guy wanting to return to his comfortable old ways). Nothing in the sitch has changed.

Especially because she is stubborn and I think there are a lot of steps for her to go before she is near making anything "official", if that makes sense. I find myself at odds with the whole DB philosophy of non-pursuit Especially because she is stubborn and I think there are a lot of steps for her to go before she is near making anything "official", if that makes sense. I find myself at odds with the whole DB philosophy of non-pursuit when I think about how to demand more so that she isn't cake eating.

Oh well, if she's stubborn then that makes for all exceptions in the world! No, it doesn't. Look up stubbornness in the King James Old Testament and you'll see it in the same scripture as witchcraft. You'll see where God doesn't like it. That places some perspective on her stubbornness. Besides, all waywards have stubbornness, 44. Look, don't you think I recognize some of the language in these quotes above? I've seen it so many times, where the LBH starts saying how he is at odds with the DB philosophy. More times than not, it's all excuses b/c he doesn't feel that he has what it takes to implement tough love.

IDK what type of "steps" she needs to go through before committing to doing the right thing in the MR (I suppose that's what you mean by "official").

If her A is out of the picture, I don't see a reason to be too pushy about recommitment or labels.

44, she is sneaking around texting some guy. It may not be the same 19 yr old boy, but it is some guy. Women don't hide to text another woman. She has offered nothing for you to arrive to the conclusion her A is over. You can't see her texts, so to save face you decide her A is out of the picture.

Pushy, recommitment, and labels...............what it sounds like you are really saying is that you don't want to rock the boat.

Again, if the A is out, is it cake-eating to do "couple" things before I have total recommitment? Or is there a stage where she is in the turnaround process and I shouldn't be shutting everything down?

.

Does this all boil down to you not wanting, or not being able, to say "no" to couple things? What is it, that is keeping you held back? Ever since you've come back fom the vacation, you've sounded differently........like you were trying to find an excuse to leave things like they were. Well, that's up to you.......but to answer your question, and to repeat myself.......your sitch has not changed. She has done absolutely nothing to show she wanted to cooperate. If things between her and OM ended, I think it happened while she was on job trip. She is hiding and texting someone, and if it was not another guy.....and if she had really broken off the A......she would have gone through.......and probably still experiencing some withdrawals, and I think she would have given you some kind of evidence of when they last texted. With all of that said, an affair, alone, does not define her waywardness. It is what is in her heart. And, may I ask what on earth have you "shut down"? As far as I can tell, things just kept beeping along, like there had never been a confrontation.

and if we ever do get to recommitment this will be something I draw a hard line about, but right now I do not believe there is an active relationship between them.

I thought you drew a hard line when you had the big talk. ^^^^^^This seems so turned around to my thinking. One minute you don't think you should push and talking about having steps........and then you say, "But if ever do get recommitted this will be something I draw a hard line about". What about in the meantime?

Perhaps I can be harsher and the whole thing will speed up, but while I'm moving in the right direction and constantly reminding myself the changes can only happen slowly anyway, I struggle with knowing just how much to push.

What changes are you talking about can only happen slowly?



I'll have to finish this later.

[sandi2]

3rd and last continuing response to your previous post:

The secretive behavior has thankfully stopped, but I am wary because of exactly what you say about the addiction. I'm not letting my guard down.

Oh, so there have been no more of her trying to keep you from seeing who she is texting? She doesn't try to hide it?

One question, is true remorse/repentance going to coincide with recommitment or could those be separate states/events?

Depends on the sitch, but usually, I think she wants to reconcile and do whatever is necessary to save the M.

So my question is, when can I start showing any encouragement to work on the MR. Wait for her to explicitly go there? Or at least cut out all the back and forth securing her position stuff?

When you see authentic, freak'in change in her attitude & behavior. Not some head dreams you try to convince yourself. When she starts showing you respect. When you see her genuinely trying to do the right thing, and trying to reconcile the MR.

I'm assuming it will be an obvious difference,

There will be an obvious difference in what you are currently seeing in her. You will knows she is sincere, b/c she is willing to cooperate. She won't be playing these disrespectful games with you! Her attitude will be humble, warm, appreciative......and even giving. I dare say, she expects you to do all the giving in the relationship, rather than her. If her heart changes, then her unwillingness changes, too.

She is so stubborn about not wanting to seem too positive about anything/me. If she wants me close to her she tries the old "I'm cold" trick. Before my family arrived, she came to the bed a day early and was again making sure she clarified there was some reason she was sleeping there.

It is not stubbornness that makes her this way. It is her waywardness.

There are days she is pretty relaxed about having her guard down. She is definitely warmer, treating me better; more of the good, less of the bad.

Are there ever any days where she treats you all good with zero bad? Do you ever remember having a 24 hour period together, where there were no hints of bad?

[44tries]

I am relieved to hear it. I was very concerned that we were losing you. I was worried that you felt too much pressure and was fading away. I want to teach/show you what I can, but if it becomes too much or pushy......just tell me. As you may can tell, I can get rather.......passionate. (Yeah, that's a good word).

No, no, don't worry, you aren't losing me. If I feel too much pressure I will say so...so far the pressure is good for me and I have been missing all your input while I've been away. My family left last night and when W goes back to work tomorrow morning and my normal routine resumes, I will be very relieved. These past few weeks have been a lot of fun, but also exhausting and nonstop going. I'll be back to posting much more frequently. Now, I will respond to all your thoughts from last week.

Well, a lot of the consequences for the more minor acts of disrespect is just you calling her out on it, and then walking away and leaving her alone. Some other things may require you to tell her.......

"You are very unattractive when you try to bully me".

"i don't desire your company when you act this way, so I will be spending the day/night being with people I do enjoy".

Those quotes are helpful. I think I got confused about "just calling her out" because a few times I thought I was, the feedback I got here was that it was weak to simply call her out without some kind of action. But I can see how saying things like you're unattractive or I don't want to spend time with you are "stronger" than saying you're rude or talking to me that way is unacceptable, etc. It's just sort of a fine line in my mind to know the difference.

Yes, generally. When you are home together and she does something.......like the "testing game", or whatever, call her out on it and immediately get ready to leave the house. No information, just tell her you are going out......and for her not to be bothering you with texts.

Okay, got it.

What do you have in mind, that will satisfy both of you? And let me just explain something about transparency. The spouse that betrayed the trust, doesn't get to choose the form of transparency. The faithful spouse decides what he will need to feel safe in the MR again. It's not like you have a discussion to see what she'll agree to do. If she is still contacting the same OM, or has a new OM (which I suspect is the case), she is not going to want to disclose her private text messages. Without seeing her text messages, what other means would you have to check? Doesn't she do all her communicating over her phone?

I definitely understand what you're saying. I guess what I meant about other ways is that I don't really feel like I need to literally read all her messages or have full access to her phone like she's on probation. Perhaps this too naive, but as I said, I know she would hate it or never allow it anyway. This is part of my frustration, though, because I agree with you completely that she should not have any say in what I need to feel safe and shouldn't have the attitude of thinking she does. It's back to the stubborn thing and her not being completely remorseful. Maybe it's part of her personality (like I said, always been that way) but frankly it's a manifestation of her respect problem/immaturity, and I think it's something that needs to change for this problem to be completely fixed. Ideally, in my mind, I wouldn't need to monitor her every message like a teenager and she would be understanding and transparent on her side, offering me enough information and openness (as in, have sensitivity over how I must feel after what she's done) that I feel safe, which I would. I agree that the only way to "check" in absolute terms would be to read her messages. However, thus far, I have a pretty good idea of everything that goes on without overtly reading because her behavior is fairly obvious. I can tell when she is sneaky and when she isn't, when she is texting or not on her phone at all, etc. Sometimes she will casually announce what she is typing if she is in on her phone in my presence, but it's never a direct discussion.

You say she's always been picky about personal space and privacy. Well, I am too. At least to an extent, but I don't keep secrets from my H. There's the difference. Her "privacy" is really all about her secrets. There should be none of that type of stuff in a MR.

I agree wholeheartedly. That's why it bothers me that there are things she won't discuss (emotionally), things she won't tell me about her past/childhood (mentioned previously), and certainly when she intentionally covers her phone so I can't see it. The first two I can understand to an extent, and realize I am different that way, but her stubbornness about being vulnerable still feels like an obstacle to intimacy. The phone stuff is obviously unacceptable and a dead giveaway to her doing things she shouldn't be doing. Since our trip, this behavior has stopped and she has not done anything sneaky or that she's trying to hide.

When did you explain to her what real transparency would mean? Before or after the theme park day?

During the initial discussion when she returned home, I probably took too much for granted in regards to the need to define it. Frankly, I think we both know full well what real transparency means, but later when she tried to say she was in compliance, I guess she tried to use the definition as if it simply meant she wouldn't be overtly lying to my face (not her words, but my interpretation). At the theme park, I made it clear that hiding her phone and texting in secret were definitely in violation of being transparent. To me, transparency is a whole package--it's an attitude along with the actions. You're either transparent or you're not and it can't really be faked or done halfway. Maybe I'm wrong in my thinking because admittedly I also have a hard time understanding mind games and manipulation etc. I'm a very open book type person.

Here is your problem, as I see it. The big talk ended without her saying yea or nay......so, nothing was really settled. So, what do you do in the meantime? What if she never offers commitment? Honestly, if she wouldn't commit when you had the big talk, I don't think she'll ever do it.....apart from her actually seeing you walking away from the M. To her, relationships are all about who holds the power. To her, submission is weakness. To cooperate with your terms is seen as giving up her control/power, which leaves her in a weak position. That's why she clings to stubbornness.

This is really good insight and to be honest, confirms my fears and what I already suspected. I feel like I'm patiently watching this slow progress toward...not really what I want. If anything, it's more likely toward falling back into the old status quo where maybe we are "back together" but it isn't clearly defined and it's on her terms. This is a MR for Pete's sake...I'm not doing that again. Thankfully, that is a decision that has already been made firmly in my mind and I have no problem walking away if she isn't willing to do it differently. My only problem is knowing when to drop that hammer, when she's had enough time...I think you discuss the progress topic further down but right now I have the mindset that I can have patience while things are moving in a positive direction but if it plateaus or backslides, I'm out.

I suppose you will know when you've had enough......at least, I hope you will. Just don't rationalize away her bad behavior. Some spouses do it, in order to live with their horrible partner......but what a way to live your life!

Totally understand. Not a life want to live. Before all this, I was probably in that category. I would not rationalize away cheating or the like, but I definitely put up with way too much of the disrespect and bad treatment, buying into her BS about not being able to control her mood swings or whatever else. I'm definitely at the point where I have grown and know what I want, and she is either on board and changes too, or it's not going to work.

I think we need to clarify about the "slow process". A wayward can make the decision to "do the right thing" and enter into an agreement/commitment with her H, although her feelings has not changed. This is what I did in my sitch. My loving feelings did not return until after I repented, which took a while.......(seems I had some stubborn issues of my own). Anyway, you are correct that there won't be any overnight changes in her heart/feelings.......not until she repents, anyway. However, if she agreed to do what you needed, she could stop her disrespectful behavior (by her own volition), even if she never felt remorse.

This makes sense. And I think what has always been most striking to me about your story is your decision to recommit before you had any of those feelings. That takes a lot of strength and dedication (I would assume) and I really think you are a rare person to make that choice. For my W, I do not see her taking such a grand stand before feeling anything. Some mind reading to follow: I think she knows the cheating and A were wrong and not something that could rationally continue (this likely due to a complex combination of reasons, only some of them due to her guilt/desire to the right thing). I think my own changes and growth are apparent to her and have had some effect (the typical response you hope for when employing LRT, GAL, etc). She now openly admits to having feelings (opposed to before) and the situation has changed ("progressed"?). The problem is she is still stubborn and has a wayward mindset and she isn't going to recommit, at least not truly, until that changes. Like you say, even if the A is over, doesn't change anything in regard to mindset. The "progress" is hopeful (I think), but again, how long should I have patience? I know that is up to me, but I am wary of checking myself and making sure I stay objective.

What I wonder about is if you are looking at the two of you being in this slow process........as in her changing from a wayward mindset. B/c she has not agreed to "do the right thing". She's made no commitment, no transparency, no change, no offer to cooperate. She won't even offer proof her EA ended. Therefore, i dare say that your WW is not in any type of change or process. She is still in rebellion. (You referred to her stubborness. Part of it is rebellion to submit or even cooperate under the conduct codes of the MR). Do you understand what I mean? She is not in the process of changing from the wayward status. I just want you to clearly understand that this is not like a reconciliation where she is trying to do the right thing to save the M. The two of you simply continued doing what you were already doing.

I see what you are saying and it is helpful. I think you are right that I am looking at it as a change from wayward status. Otherwise, we've gone absolutely nowhere. Well, I personally have gone somewhere, but the relationship, no. Are you saying there can be no change from wayward status before full recommitment? Because as I mentioned above, I don't really see why she would recommit while still wayward. Does that make any sense? Perhaps I am just being foolish. Do you suggest I demand proof of the EA ending? Demand recommitment today or I leave? If I had any notion she was still in any kind of A, I would be gone. If she was not becoming any warmer or gaining feelings or whatever you want to call it, I would be on my way out. If she was not showing me more respect, I would not be thinking there was progress. She is increasingly concerned with my feelings and caring what I think. My voice is no longer unheard and despite her aversion to words, her actions have definitely changed. Yes, they need to change further and verbal commitment is required, but I don't how much to push or demand immediately.

Yes, you are making positive changes, but she never agreed to work on the MR........right? Perhaps I am making too much out of what you said.

I'm going to continue with a new post.

Right, and I fully understand why this is concerning. Trust me, I am concerned. I guess I was thinking of it like she needed to regain feelings and desire to be in the relationship to a certain point before she is going to jump in head first. I mean, I'm certainly not asking everyday "are you ready to work on the MR yet?" I'm just looking at actions and looking for positive signs per the DR plan. I guess I feel like a big part of DB is not applying pressure and that's why I'm hesitant to rush in with demands. I get that I get to be demanding when it comes to transparency and ensuring she isn't still in an A, but as I've said, I'm fairly certain this is not a current issue.

I will respond to your next post in a separate post so I can keep quoting.

[44tries]

Arghhh...I had my first experience losing a long post...and I was about done with it too Maybe this one will be more succinct.

Look 44, she understands a lot more than you give her credit. The whole defensive attitude comes from her guilt. You have always been submissive to whatever she wanted, however she wanted it. She thinks if she holds out long enough, you'll eventually give up. I'll have to say it kind of sounds like you want to back peddle on some things. You sound like a man who doesn't know how to enforce his boundaries......so you want to stop "pushing & labeling", and just go with the flow (which is code for a nice-guy wanting to return to his comfortable old ways). Nothing in the sitch has changed.

I think she understands everything. I don't intend to go back to being submissive or give up (assuming you mean give up on regaining power, not the MR). I will be the first to admit I have issues enforcing boundaries, but I am (hopefully) getting better. That is a major area I have been trying to grow. I have no intention of going back to the old ways. The power I have been able to regain already has made it more than clear to me that there is nothing comfortable about going back (ie having no power). If you are right that nothing at all has changed, I will have to re-evaluate.

Oh well, if she's stubborn then that makes for all exceptions in the world! No, it doesn't. Look up stubbornness in the King James Old Testament and you'll see it in the same scripture as witchcraft. You'll see where God doesn't like it. That places some perspective on her stubbornness. Besides, all waywards have stubbornness, 44. Look, don't you think I recognize some of the language in these quotes above? I've seen it so many times, where the LBH starts saying how he is at odds with the DB philosophy. More times than not, it's all excuses b/c he doesn't feel that he has what it takes to implement tough love.

Some more great insight. To be clear, I was not saying I was okay with her stubbornness. It is one of the biggest enemies! I want it gone. And I understand that drawing hard lines and having no tolerance are my best weapons against it. I definitely see what you're saying about excuses. I do think I have what it takes and can implement tough love (and I am in a lot of ways). The only thing I feel at odds with is strictly about forcing an ultimatum on recommitment. To me, the DB approach is about everyday increasing the chances the WAS/WS recommits. And I honestly feel that is happening in my sitch. So, it's hard to say today is the day I force it. In the beginning, I thought the end is when the WAS/WS comes to you and says they want to recommit. But obviously that might never happen and you have to draw your own line too. So I can see why it just looks like an excuse.

IDK what type of "steps" she needs to go through before committing to doing the right thing in the MR (I suppose that's what you mean by "official").

I just meant the steps in between "I want completely out of this MR/I'm having an A" to "I want to recommit to the MR and do everything possible to make it work". Of course, the right thing to do is stay committed to an MR. But none of us would be here if our spouses wanted to do the right thing. The hope is that they get to the place where they do want to, right? I suppose whatever steps they need to get there are personal and we cannot control them; that's a central pillar to DB. All my efforts to rebuild respect and regain attraction etc have been helpful, so when do I say enough is enough or force the issue? I know that is my question to answer, but that is my dilemma.

44, she is sneaking around texting some guy. It may not be the same 19 yr old boy, but it is some guy. Women don't hide to text another woman. She has offered nothing for you to arrive to the conclusion her A is over. You can't see her texts, so to save face you decide her A is out of the picture.

She is not currently sneaking around texting anyone. I have arrived at the conclusion her A is over because I have not seen her hiding anything for weeks.

Pushy, recommitment, and labels...............what it sounds like you are really saying is that you don't want to rock the boat.

Not totally wrong. I have no problem rocking the boat in day to day interaction. But yes, I am admittedly hesitant to rock the boat when it comes to the ultimatum issue. It's not even that I'm afraid to lose the MR or walk away. I'm just concerned about the timing, doing it too soon. Back to issue of progress or not. But I hear you, if there is in fact no progress and I'm kidding myself, then so be it.

Does this all boil down to you not wanting, or not being able, to say "no" to couple things? What is it, that is keeping you held back? Ever since you've come back fom the vacation, you've sounded differently........like you were trying to find an excuse to leave things like they were. Well, that's up to you.......but to answer your question, and to repeat myself.......your sitch has not changed. She has done absolutely nothing to show she wanted to cooperate. If things between her and OM ended, I think it happened while she was on job trip. She is hiding and texting someone, and if it was not another guy.....and if she had really broken off the A......she would have gone through.......and probably still experiencing some withdrawals, and I think she would have given you some kind of evidence of when they last texted. With all of that said, an affair, alone, does not define her waywardness. It is what is in her heart. And, may I ask what on earth have you "shut down"? As far as I can tell, things just kept beeping along, like there had never been a confrontation.

No, I can and will say no if I should. I don't want things how they were. I do believe her A ended on her job trip (which is consistent with what she said). She probably did go through withdrawals...and did give evidence of having contact with him on our trip...which I confronted and told her she was clearly not transparent and I wouldn't put up with it...and I have seen no sneaking or contact with another man since. Maybe she still has withdrawals (admittedly, I'm hoping from a 5 week texting relationship they won't last TOO long), and I fully understand the waywardness is there with or without an A. The only thing I have shut down is her possessiveness or assumption she has any control who I hang out with and can ask questions etc. I don't shut her down if she tries to snuggle up to me in bed or the like. That's why I was asking if I should. I don't disagree I am frustrated there hasn't been a bigger change since the confrontation (more remorse, etc). But there has been a significant increase in her respect level, which is why I said there is progress. We do not discuss the A, other than her initiated conversation about whether I could trust her again (and I told her what would be required).

I thought you drew a hard line when you had the big talk. ^^^^^^This seems so turned around to my thinking. One minute you don't think you should push and talking about having steps........and then you say, "But if ever do get recommitted this will be something I draw a hard line about". What about in the meantime?

Okay, I understand the confusion. I DID draw a hard line during the big talk. What I mean about after recommitment is more of an enforcement issue. Right now I do not feel like I can demand to see her phone or such if I felt the need. If we were to go back to being committed, I would feel more license to openly ask about contact or demand proof etc if I felt it necessary. Maybe this is turned around thinking. I'm not sure why I feel there is a difference. In the meantime, I am monitoring more from the sidelines. I still feel I can bring it up if there is an issue (which I did at the theme park).

What changes are you talking about can only happen slowly?

Her gaining respect and attraction. Me gaining strength and power back in the relationship. And I feel like all of those things are happening.

[44tries]

Oh, so there have been no more of her trying to keep you from seeing who she is texting? She doesn't try to hide it?

No, not since the theme park, which was the last day of our vacation. She has since not hidden anything about her phone and I have been with her most of the time, including sleeping since she had to give up the guest room for my family. She may or may not remain in the bed but she stayed last night after they left.

So my question is, when can I start showing any encouragement to work on the MR. Wait for her to explicitly go there? Or at least cut out all the back and forth securing her position stuff?

When you see authentic, freak'in change in her attitude & behavior. Not some head dreams you try to convince yourself. When she starts showing you respect. When you see her genuinely trying to do the right thing, and trying to reconcile the MR.

I'm assuming it will be an obvious difference,

There will be an obvious difference in what you are currently seeing in her. You will knows she is sincere, b/c she is willing to cooperate. She won't be playing these disrespectful games with you! Her attitude will be humble, warm, appreciative......and even giving. I dare say, she expects you to do all the giving in the relationship, rather than her. If her heart changes, then her unwillingness changes, too.

She is so stubborn about not wanting to seem too positive about anything/me. If she wants me close to her she tries the old "I'm cold" trick. Before my family arrived, she came to the bed a day early and was again making sure she clarified there was some reason she was sleeping there.

It is not stubbornness that makes her this way. It is her waywardness.

There are days she is pretty relaxed about having her guard down. She is definitely warmer, treating me better; more of the good, less of the bad.

Are there ever any days where she treats you all good with zero bad? Do you ever remember having a 24 hour period together, where there were no hints of bad?

Yes, there are days with all good and zero bad. And increasingly so. A big difference too is that when there is bad, and I have been consistent about not tolerating it, she will come and apologize. She cares about what I think and is willing to be the one to reach out and fix things. Because I'm not going to be the one to do it anymore and she knows it. Maybe she is just no longer sure how far she can push, but her apologies are genuine. She is interested in discussing her feelings and asking about mine and improving the relationship.

So while there are still times of stubbornness or disrespect, there are also times where she is humble and warm. It's a back and forth, but more of the latter as time goes. That's why I was asking if the difference would be instant or permanent. My observation that there is progress could be wrong if this is the case, because there are still times she reverts.

She is definitely more affectionate and started calling me pet names occasionally; her stubbornness about not showing positivity or 'giving me hope" has subsided a lot. But I will not let it fall back into being "together" without explicit discussion and commitment. I feel like we are getting close to where I feel it is time to force the issue. Again, I just don't know how to know when exactly is the time.

[44tries]

So it seems she might be ready to end the bedroom separation...only been a few nights but no indication she is going back to "her" room. On a personal note, I think I gain more objectivity the "closer" she gets. I definitely have some of those typical LBH feelings of being unsure I really want her back and increased resentment about everything. I know that's normal and I'm trying to deal with it appropriately. Recon may or may not ever end up on the table, but I think it's a good thing that I've gotten to the point where I know exactly what I need to even consider it and I'm not going to settle for anything less.

[SteveLW]

So it seems she might be ready to end the bedroom separation...only been a few nights but no indication she is going back to "her" room. On a personal note, I think I gain more objectivity the "closer" she gets. I definitely have some of those typical LBH feelings of being unsure I really want her back and increased resentment about everything. I know that's normal and I'm trying to deal with it appropriately. Recon may or may not ever end up on the table, but I think it's a good thing that I've gotten to the point where I know exactly what I need to even consider it and I'm not going to settle for anything less.

Yep, normal. When my W started showing signs of wanting to R, I suddenly started having a strong desire to just file for D. It was weird. But she definitely could see that I was detaching.

[44tries]

Yep, normal. When my W started showing signs of wanting to R, I suddenly started having a strong desire to just file for D. It was weird. But she definitely could see that I was detaching.

Right. I think overall it's a good thing and means I can consider things more objectively rather than emotionally (which is sooo hard in the beginning, even for a rational-minded person).


My birthday is coming up and W has been asking what I want and talking about another trip. Sandi, I know we discussed the last trip may have been a mistake, would like to hear your thoughts on the trip situation from here on out because traveling is going to be high priority given the time we have remaining in current location.

Today, I'm a bit all over the place. So glad to be back in routine and have time for myself, but it's thinking time I haven't really had for awhile. I don't even know how I should be looking at my situation. I'm trying to get back to the core of LRT, GAL, sandis rules, etc but my approach can't be the same as it was two months ago. I feel like I'm committing constant violations; reality is, now that we are back to sleeping in the same bed, there isn't any separation at all. Everything about my day-to-day life is a detachment minefield. There is no way I'm going to be able to detach from a woman that falls asleep snuggled up to me every night. So what do I do? Initiate an R talk? Run away and stop making plans so I can GAL? I feel like I'm looking at my roadmap thinking I might be heading toward where I wanted to be, but also realizing I totally lost my place and don't know where I am.

My biggest concern is if I don't pull the brakes and withdraw, we might fall back to "normal" (which upon honest assessment seems to be the direction we're going). The difference is I have no interest in the old normal, and I am not my old "normal" self anymore either. So I assume if I'm not complacent, it will be up or out anyway right? I guess I'm back to the question of what is slow progress and am I really seeing any?

Please note when I say old normal I am not referring to the disrespect or bad treatment. I'm not letting that back ever again.

[SteveLW]

44, you remind me a lot of myself in March and April. The answer is, as it always is, that you can only control you.

y biggest concern is if I don't pull the brakes and withdraw, we might fall back to "normal" (which upon honest assessment seems to be the direction we're going).

Notice, this is UP TO YOU, but only from your end. If going back to "normal" is where she wants to go then you will have a decision to make at some point. Your goal is to keep the changes you've made going: GAL, 180s, detachment (even as you reconnect, please look up self differentiation in relationships for what that means) and being the best spouse you can be.

Marriage experts often say that if you want a better MR be a better S. It would be difficult for a S to not respond favorably to positive changes in their S. You cannot control your S but you can control you, so if you want your S to improve, then you make improvements.

I have seen this in my own MR. My W was stressed out last night. Moving is stressful. I have maintained a positive attitude throughout the move, even when she has been stressed and become short. Last night she was short and snappy at times. I just kept responding calmly, cooly, friendly and upbeat. The result was that she would quickly change to being more friendly and calm.

So 44, you are the key. Stay consistent and vigilant in your 180s and changes. Don't let yourself go back to the old normal. Make your new normal permanent. Your W would be a fool not to follow suit.

[44tries]

Marriage experts often say that if you want a better MR be a better S. It would be difficult for a S to not respond favorably to positive changes in their S. You cannot control your S but you can control you, so if you want your S to improve, then you make improvements.

I have seen this in my own MR. My W was stressed out last night. Moving is stressful. I have maintained a positive attitude throughout the move, even when she has been stressed and become short. Last night she was short and snappy at times. I just kept responding calmly, cooly, friendly and upbeat. The result was that she would quickly change to being more friendly and calm.

So 44, you are the key. Stay consistent and vigilant in your 180s and changes. Don't let yourself go back to the old normal. Make your new normal permanent. Your W would be a fool not to follow suit.

Thank you for these words, Steve. I also can definitely see the differences I have caused just by being a better person and S myself. Like you said about your sitch, the more calm and positive I am, the more my W is. Honestly, my W's communication and treatment of me has improved SO much. I assume this is due to a combination of all the work I've done to demand respect, be a better S, be a better person individually, but also probably due in part to changes in the situation and whatever goes on in her own head. But it is important to remember how much effect we can have as only one half of the equation and I intend to stay consistent and vigilant from my side. Hopefully this will be enough to establish a new normal for both of us.



Puzzling/concerning/positive (?) conversation last night. We were in bed talking and she brought up my birthday and the trip. I told her I wasn't sure I wanted to do a trip, it wasn't necessary, and I wasn't totally comfortable spending the money on it given the circumstances. She said she would feel terrible since we didn't go anywhere last year either and money wasn't an issue. I decided to initiate what could be considered an R talk, mainly about the future. I explained that we had no plan for what is going to happen in 6 months. We have the holiday season, immediately followed by an international move, my spring tuition due, her needing to buy a new car since she is selling her local one before we leave, and the assumption that we will begin living in separate households. I told her as kindly as possible that she was crazy if she thinks we can afford all that on her salary, and we are making no attempt so far to save extra in preparation. I explained that I would hopefully be able to get a job soon after returning to the states, but I am not comfortable going into that situation without a proper cushion of funds so that I am not desperate for an immediate solution the moment I step off the plane (obviously I have been considering/trying to solve this privately for awhile). Our money is still all conjoined and with her being the sole breadwinner currently, I find this whole topic frustrating and a bit awkward. But it's something that cannot be ignored because we need time to prepare and splashing out a bunch of money for trips without a thought for the future doesn't make sense to me. Now, I understand we are in a very unique situation that allows us to travel to places we will probably never get back to (and certainly not without MUCH greater expense). We want to make the best of that, but there needs to be a plan.

Anyway, her response was that I could live with her when we move. She goes on to say that depending where she gets assigned, she is considering buying a house. I say well that's all well and good, but why the he11 would you or I want me living in it? (In slightly gentler words). She then corrects herself and says it could be our house. I don't know how to take this. I don't remember the exact words or order of the conversation, but at one point her response to me saying none of this makes any sense if we aren't together was "no matter what happens, you won't be on your own, so stop stressing." She then continued on, describing our future house and cars and the camping trips we would take with the dogs. She was deliberately using words like "us" and "ours" even after I corrected her that I would not be involved if we are separating. After the third time she told me to "stop stressing", I let the conversation end. I know in the past she hated it when I got all worked up needing an immediate plan or solution and wanted to talk it to death. So, I'm trying to have patience and letting things happen naturally. BUT is this a problem? I feel like she is passively aggressively telling me she wants or is thinking about getting back together. I want to tear my hair out.

I'm trying to keep perspective. She has only been voluntarily back in the bed for less than a week. She consistently wants to cuddle and has now added holding hands and talking about our future house. Still nothing sexual or even kissing (I haven't tried), but I don't know if that is a red flag or a patience thing. I have this weird, baseless gut feeling that she is holding back (consciously or subconsciously) on that because there is something about the A she hasn't told me, like she lied about them just kissing, etc. But I could be totally wrong and it's just a slow progression (really need some input on that topic ) or maybe all this is some kind of manipulation that I'm missing. I hate feeling like I'm back in the position without any power, which is setting off alarm bells for me. So really I'm in the same position as my last few posts...should I force a full, open R talk and see where we stand, give it more time as things aren't stagnant, or...? I don't know why I had the notion that if we got to reconciliation, it would be her coming to me with some grand gesture.

On a side note, I get the idea that she might be open to working on the MR if I proposed something specific. So if you guys do think I should force an R talk and demand she verbally recommit right now, I think it would be most effective if I had a plan of action that was more tangible than just "working on our MR". Will have to think more on this.

[LoneWlf]

I hate feeling like I'm back in the position without any power, which is setting off alarm bells for me.

44- Power is not what you should be seeking but you are in a position of power- The power to control what YOU do.

[44tries]

44- Power is not what you should be seeking but you are in a position of power- The power to control what YOU do.

You know, LoneWlf, this brings up a great point. I am not in the position I was in before because I have gained power in objectivity and growth. I know my real power is in what I can control and that is up to me.

[SteveLW]

Firstly, yes it does sound like she is softening to the idea of R. This is exactly how my W started moving back towards the MR. There will be no grand gesture. (Look up the story of Naaman the leper for an allegory about expecting some grand gesture!) It will be a slow, organic process. She will rebel against it a time or two as well so be prepared for that. WWs don't know what they want long-term, only what they are thinking/feeling at that exact moment.

Take it slow. You have made a lot of progress thus far.Lots of LBSs would trade places with you in a second! Let things play out for a while. There will always be time for the deeper MR/R discussions to come. Just concentrate on your GAL, 180s, and detachment. (As I told another poster, look up self-differentiation in a relationship. Detachment isn't just for DBing, it is the healthiest way to be in a MR.

Once you are more sure of R, and she is all in and committed, then I would suggest making MC a condition. She will need to also agree to complete transparency (to rebuild trust). Date nights should be weekly at a minimum to being to reconnect. Look up touch and talk charges (sounds like you are already doing these to a degree, but being more consistent is the key).

Remember, too much pursuit and pressure can still send her running the other way. But be careful that you don't let opportunities slip away. Let her come to you. Let her initiate the R talks. At the same time don't let her skate on the work she needs to do. Letting things go back to the way things were is NOT the direction you want to take or you will end up right back here at some point.

Keep posting and keep us informed.

[MoveFrwd]

She then corrects herself and says it could be our house. I don't know how to take this. I don't remember the exact words or order of the conversation, but at one point her response to me saying none of this makes any sense if we aren't together was "no matter what happens, you won't be on your own, so stop stressing." She then continued on, describing our future house and cars and the camping trips we would take with the dogs. She was deliberately using words like "us" and "ours" even after I corrected her that I would not be involved if we are separating. After the third time she told me to "stop stressing",

It's a little strange to me that she is the only one that gets to make decisions like this. It sounds like you are putting the decision of whether or not to separate completely in her court. I think thats why you feel so powerless. You say you know you can only control you, but it sounds like you are giving that power to her....

On a side note, I get the idea that she might be open to working on the MR if I proposed something specific. So if you guys do think I should force an R talk and demand she verbally recommit right now, I think it would be most effective if I had a plan of action that was more tangible than just "working on our MR". Will have to think more on this.

I think that plan starts with seeing a professional to navigate through a confusing time. I ouldnt take that on as your responsibility to identify and plan.

[sandi2]

I definitely understand what you're saying. I guess what I meant about other ways is that I don't really feel like I need to literally read all her messages or have full access to her phone like she's on probation.

Well, that's your decision.

Ideally, in my mind, I wouldn't need to monitor her every message like a teenager and she would be understanding and transparent on her side, offering me enough information and openness (as in, have sensitivity over how I must feel after what she's done) that I feel safe, which I would.

I don't think you understand how transparency works. I'm not going to talk about it any more with you (if I don't forget I've told you this). You know she won't agree to it, and so you make excuses of why you don't need it. Just realize that if she is not working toward building a trustworthy relationship with you, then I seriously doubt she is going to be open in the ways you want/need.

You mentioned how she won't discuss her past. I am wondering if some of her behavior stems from her FOO.

My only problem is knowing when to drop that hammer, when she's had enough time...I think you discuss the progress topic further down but right now I have the mindset that I can have patience while things are moving in a positive direction but if it plateaus or backslides, I'm out.

What do you mean "drop the hammer"? When she's had enough time for what?

I talk about a WW having a processing period, to work through her issues. However, you need to understand that is when the WW makes the decision to do the right thing toward saving her M. It starts with her ending all contact with OM. She may not have a change in her feelings right away, but she can change how she acts.

She now openly admits to having feelings (opposed to before) and the situation has changed ("progressed"?). The problem is she is still stubborn and has a wayward mindset and she isn't going to recommit, at least not truly, until that changes. Like you say, even if the A is over, doesn't change anything in regard to mindset. The "progress" is hopeful (I think), but again, how long should I have patience? I know that is up to me, but I am wary of checking myself and making sure I stay objective.

I think you have this idea that you're suppose to allow her a certain amount of time to shape up. To cut to the chase, you should not tolerate any wayward behavior from her. She can control her actions, words, and attitude she uses with you. Therefore, you should not give her a period of time before she decides to start treating you right. She has always been capable of being good to you, she just chose to treat you badly. She did it in such a way that you questioned yourself about the gravity of her actions. You made excuses for her, etc. Even if there are issues linked to her FOO, the woman knows she is treating you like cr@p! So, don't let her get away with it. There should be consequences for anyone who treats you disrespectfully, don't you agree?

The processing period, you mention, is suppose to be for her to work through her personal issues (like resentment, unforgiveness, disrespect, etc). Ideally, the two of you would seek professional MC, and perhaps she would need IC. However, it doesn't work if she won't cooperate. If she won't at least admit to herself how sh'tty she has treated you, and decide to get the tools to have a really good MR.......then I don't think she'll make the changes.

She probably needs professional help, but you can't make someone do it. The thing here in your sitch, is that you don't know if she has decided to do the right thing, or not. So, you don't know if she is trying to work on her issues. All you can do is observe her actions, attitude,. and words. You can't help what she thinks or feels.......but you shouldn't tolerate her bad behavior. There is no period to allow bad behavior. You don't take her verbal abuse. You don't put up with her abusive attitude. And, you don't take any mistreatment. That means she doesn't get to boss you around, dictate what you'll do or won't do, play mind games and test you, or any of her bullying methods. There is no period that she gets to act out, before you drop the hammer. Get that out of your head! She has to currently treat you in a respectful manner, whether she is wayward or a saint. Do you get what I'm saying?

If you feel progress has been made, that's good. If she's sleeping in the bed with you, then maybe that's a good step. Having a R talk right now is probably not a good idea. Calling her out for testing you, bullying, and other bad behavior should be done every time she does it. It doesn't mean you have to go into a R discussion.

Are you saying there can be no change from wayward status before full recommitment?

I suppose she could change anytime she wanted. However, if she's not committed to saving the MR, then what would be her motivation to change? If she gets the same things for treating you badly, as she would for treating you respectfully......what would cause her to change?

(Sorry if I have skipped around all over the place. I've got to get use to this new look to our forum).

[44tries]

Firstly, yes it does sound like she is softening to the idea of R. This is exactly how my W started moving back towards the MR. There will be no grand gesture. (Look up the story of Naaman the leper for an allegory about expecting some grand gesture!) It will be a slow, organic process. She will rebel against it a time or two as well so be prepared for that. WWs don't know what they want long-term, only what they are thinking/feeling at that exact moment.

Take it slow. You have made a lot of progress thus far.Lots of LBSs would trade places with you in a second! Let things play out for a while. There will always be time for the deeper MR/R discussions to come. Just concentrate on your GAL, 180s, and detachment. (As I told another poster, look up self-differentiation in a relationship. Detachment isn't just for DBing, it is the healthiest way to be in a MR.

Once you are more sure of R, and she is all in and committed, then I would suggest making MC a condition. She will need to also agree to complete transparency (to rebuild trust). Date nights should be weekly at a minimum to being to reconnect. Look up touch and talk charges (sounds like you are already doing these to a degree, but being more consistent is the key).

Remember, too much pursuit and pressure can still send her running the other way. But be careful that you don't let opportunities slip away. Let her come to you. Let her initiate the R talks. At the same time don't let her skate on the work she needs to do. Letting things go back to the way things were is NOT the direction you want to take or you will end up right back here at some point.

Keep posting and keep us informed.

Thanks Steve, it helps to know this "progression" is pretty normal. My main concern is getting to that long term goal of secure commitment. I don't want to keep taking baby steps toward "not divorcing", but find myself back in the same place a year from now, just like you said. Right now I am enjoying the changes in her respect level and we are getting along great. But I am going to be pretty interested to see the road ahead and make sure we keep moving forward in the right direction.

[44tries]

It's a little strange to me that she is the only one that gets to make decisions like this. It sounds like you are putting the decision of whether or not to separate completely in her court. I think thats why you feel so powerless. You say you know you can only control you, but it sounds like you are giving that power to her....

I agree completely. And I don't want to give all that power to her, but I got stuck in the position of "divorce isn't what I want but I respect your choice" and now she holds that decision of whether or not to separate. Of course, I have my half of the control in that I can always choose to walk, but unless I go that route I'm not sure how I can avoid being at the mercy of her own decision in that regard.

I think that plan starts with seeing a professional to navigate through a confusing time. I ouldnt take that on as your responsibility to identify and plan.

This is good advice. I will just make sure to tread carefully and know that if we get to that stage, it will be important to make a plan together that includes counseling and definitive action steps. I agree I am probably getting ahead of myself trying to worry about much of that right this second and without her fully on board with me.

[44tries]

I don't think you understand how transparency works. I'm not going to talk about it any more with you (if I don't forget I've told you this). You know she won't agree to it, and so you make excuses of why you don't need it. Just realize that if she is not working toward building a trustworthy relationship with you, then I seriously doubt she is going to be open in the ways you want/need.

This point is a very important one. And you are right, a lot of it is probably me making excuses rather than setting the hard lines I need to. These are exactly the kinds of things I need to be reminded of because it is how I'm going to end up in a situation where I am not getting what I want/need AGAIN. Nope, not going to do it. Time to keep chipping away at those default NGS habits.

You mentioned how she won't discuss her past. I am wondering if some of her behavior stems from her FOO.

What is FOO?

What do you mean "drop the hammer"? When she's had enough time for what?

I talk about a WW having a processing period, to work through her issues. However, you need to understand that is when the WW makes the decision to do the right thing toward saving her M. It starts with her ending all contact with OM. She may not have a change in her feelings right away, but she can change how she acts.

Okay, I totally understand what you are saying here and I agree with all of it. Do you think that I should initiate a discussion and ask if she has ended all contact/demand proof? (still seems that way as of now). Now that I am not hyper worried about everything being in immediate crisis mode, I am running into navigating how to make the tranistion from "the brink" to getting all of my needs clarified and met.

I think you have this idea that you're suppose to allow her a certain amount of time to shape up. To cut to the chase, you should not tolerate any wayward behavior from her. She can control her actions, words, and attitude she uses with you. Therefore, you should not give her a period of time before she decides to start treating you right. She has always been capable of being good to you, she just chose to treat you badly. She did it in such a way that you questioned yourself about the gravity of her actions. You made excuses for her, etc. Even if there are issues linked to her FOO, the woman knows she is treating you like cr@p! So, don't let her get away with it. There should be consequences for anyone who treats you disrespectfully, don't you agree?

Bingo. Again, so much of what I need to hear. To be clear (and hopefully this is a big positive), the biggest thing that has changed IS her behavior and respect level. She may not come forward and initiate recommitment talks or verbally discuss much at all, but her behavioral changes are huge. She is choosing to treat me well and doing it consistently. If she says anything that remotely sounds rude or snappy, she catches herself and apologizes and tries to explain what she is feeling, etc. And she knows that if she does cross the line, I'm not letting her get away with it. I can only think of one instance in the past week where she slipped to bad behavior and let her tone/words get out of control and I immeditately walked away. You know what? Instant remedy; she corrected herself real quick.

The processing period, you mention, is suppose to be for her to work through her personal issues (like resentment, unforgiveness, disrespect, etc). Ideally, the two of you would seek professional MC, and perhaps she would need IC. However, it doesn't work if she won't cooperate. If she won't at least admit to herself how sh'tty she has treated you, and decide to get the tools to have a really good MR.......then I don't think she'll make the changes.

I understand. I think that's mostly what I mean when I refer to the "processing". Her disrespectful behavior was the immediate concern and that has been what I have been addressing and seen the most difference in. In my mind (and I could be wrong), I view her resentment and unforgiveness, etc that you mention she needs processing time to work through, as the pieces that need to change for her to be truly recommitted feelings wise. I understand she can still make the right choice before that, but sometimes I feel like what you mean by that is mostly just ending the affair (which is certainly a huge and necessary piece, and one that I am pretty confident is mostly in place at this point). She told me she ended it and I can either choose to believe her or demand proof, which brings me back to my above question on your opinion. I know it is my choice, but I am just asking what you would do in my shoes since I value your thoughts highly and you have given a lot of input on this particular topic.

She probably needs professional help, but you can't make someone do it. The thing here in your sitch, is that you don't know if she has decided to do the right thing, or not. So, you don't know if she is trying to work on her issues. All you can do is observe her actions, attitude,. and words. You can't help what she thinks or feels.......but you shouldn't tolerate her bad behavior. There is no period to allow bad behavior. You don't take her verbal abuse. You don't put up with her abusive attitude. And, you don't take any mistreatment. That means she doesn't get to boss you around, dictate what you'll do or won't do, play mind games and test you, or any of her bullying methods. There is no period that she gets to act out, before you drop the hammer. Get that out of your head! She has to currently treat you in a respectful manner, whether she is wayward or a saint. Do you get what I'm saying?

Yes! and I will not give her any period of allowance. I never intended to; all my work since day one has been about putting my foot down on that and I wasn't confused or thinking I could go back to letting that slide. Maybe I wasn't very clear with my wording, but I hope I didn't give the impression that I was giving her a period of allowing bad behavior. The period I am talking about is the period where we are "working" on the relationship before she verbally comes out and says she wants to stay with married to me, forever. I love that she is treating me right and is affectionate and acting like my wife again, but I do not love being unsure where we really stand or her telling me to "not stress", etc. I also do not want to go back to a sexless marriage, that is a clear problem and the biggest sign that nothing will be sustainable (at least, to me). I will not put up with all of this indefinitely. But I understand there has to be limbo and that's okay, I just don't know what to expect. So that's where my uncertainty lies; how to state these needs without being too much, too fast.

If you feel progress has been made, that's good. If she's sleeping in the bed with you, then maybe that's a good step. Having a R talk right now is probably not a good idea. Calling her out for testing you, bullying, and other bad behavior should be done every time she does it. It doesn't mean you have to go into a R discussion.

This is exactly where I am. I figure it is not advisable to push for any of these needs as far as sure commitment to the long term or physical stuff, etc. But I can call her out for bullying/tests and keep moving things in the right direction that way without R discussion. I just don't want to do this indefinitely; I went a long time putting up with her lukewarm stance to our MR and lack of physical touch etc and I don't want to repeat that and be back in the same place. So I'm hoping to get some help with this and I know the board will hit me with 2x4s when it IS time to make those demands.

I am also really trying to keep my guard up and not get emotionally invested in any of this new positivity, but it is a hard balance. I want to be reciprocal of her warmth when she reaches out or be excited about future plans, but I constantly feel like I am setting myself up to be hurt all over again if I start getting hopeful about any of it.

I suppose she could change anytime she wanted. However, if she's not committed to saving the MR, then what would be her motivation to change? If she gets the same things for treating you badly, as she would for treating you respectfully......what would cause her to change?

This is another thing I keep coming back to, and something I was especially worried about a short while ago. I suppose the way it is supposed to work is that as she gains respect and starts treating me differently (already happening), then naturally she will feel motivation to want our MR and change it for the better (right?). She is at the point where she is not shy about discussing future plans and including me, has ended all separation at home, and is even showing me affection in public. So I guess her motivation is that if she wants any of this to last, she needs to maintain her newfound respect and more importantly get both feet back in the door.

[sandi2]

FOO = Family of origin

Do you think that I should initiate a discussion and ask if she has ended all contact/demand proof? (still seems that way as of now). Now that I am not hyper worried about everything being in immediate crisis mode, I am running into navigating how to make the tranistion from "the brink" to getting all of my needs clarified and met.

Here are a couple of things to consider. If you feel things have steadily improved since the day at the theme park, and you have seen nothing to indicate she is secretly texting, then to ask for proof at this point could possibly send her back to the other bedroom. This improved behavior may be all smoke and mirrors, but I based on her previous MO, I rather doubt it...….if she has sincerely changed as much as you try to make us believe. In other words, if you feel OM is out of the picture, than don't have a conversation. If you see her reverting back to sneaky behavior, then ask to see her messages, that she's not texting some other guy (not just the 19 yr old, but any guy). If you find her repeating old sneaky habits, don't ask her if the EA is over, and don't refer to the 19 yr old. If she's texting a new guy, it would be too easy for her to deflect from it by telling you the EA with 19 yr old was over.

Many people these days believe it is fine to have close friendships with the opposite sex. When it excludes the spouse, I think it becomes very threatening to the MR. If she doesn't have any female friends, and if all her friends are her co-workers (and most are men), it could be an easy trap for her. I would think the military offers counseling to couples. Whether or not she'd listen to a counselor, or even be willing to cooperate......is anyone's guess.

To be clear (and hopefully this is a big positive), the biggest thing that has changed IS her behavior and respect level. She may not come forward and initiate recommitment talks or verbally discuss much at all, but her behavioral changes are huge. She is choosing to treat me well and doing it consistently. If she says anything that remotely sounds rude or snappy, she catches herself and apologizes and tries to explain what she is feeling, etc. And she knows that if she does cross the line, I'm not letting her get away with it.

Good!

In my mind (and I could be wrong), I view her resentment and unforgiveness, etc that you mention she needs processing time to work through, as the pieces that need to change for her to be truly recommitted feelings wise. I understand she can still make the right choice before that, but sometimes I feel like what you mean by that is mostly just ending the affair (which is certainly a huge and necessary piece, and one that I am pretty confident is mostly in place at this point). She told me she ended it and I can either choose to believe her or demand proof, which brings me back to my above question on your opinion. I know it is my choice, but I am just asking what you would do in my shoes since I value your thoughts highly and you have given a lot of input on this particular topic.

As long as you see no previous behavior that indicates she is hiding something, and as long as she continues to show respectful behavior......then I would not bring up the subject of the A, at this time. One reason is b/c you let it slide that day in the theme park and all this time has past since then...….so unless you see her acting sneaky again, or you have doubts about it......then why bring it up now, when she's returned to sleeping in your bed, etc.? That's not to say there won't be another incident and you'll need to address it then, but we are talking about right now. On the other hand, you may be a person who needs to know she is committed to the MR before you have sex with her. That's your decision. I just doubt she's going to voluntarily tell you she's committed, due to her stubbornness.

I think commitment is what you really want from her. You'd like to hear those words from her, so you could relax and the two of you could live happily ever after. I don't think she'll say those words. Unless she received some excellent counseling and she was able to understand your needs, and the importance of her willingness, I don't think she'll say it. I think she'll just ease back into life with you, similar to how she eased back into sleeping in your bed. Yes, of course, she used the excuse of your parents visiting...….and she just continued after they left. No explanation, no conversation, and no commitment. Isn't that usually how she operates in most things, or am I wrong? If I were her, I'd probably see it as being easier than discussing it and dragging up the old stuff again. It common for the WW to want to put everything behind them and just pick up with up and start from "here" in their M. Plus, she's probably not ready for you to corner her about a commitment. This way is a smoother transfer back into the MBR, for her. Now, as to how genuine her feelings are...….I simply don't know. You have to decide if you are okay at this point....and if you can take a day at a time. If you are, and you see things progressing...….then go with it. If things start falling back, then you can discuss what to do.

Maybe I wasn't very clear with my wording, but I hope I didn't give the impression that I was giving her a period of allowing bad behavior. The period I am talking about is the period where we are "working" on the relationship before she verbally comes out and says she wants to stay with married to me, forever.

Sometimes it sounded a little like you were thinking she was suppose to have a period of bad behavior, so that's why I wanted to make sure we were on the same page. As I said, I think IC for her and MC for both of you, would do wonders for your MR. Without her getting IC, I think her stubbornness will be the destructive force in this relationship. I googled the word, stubbornness, and found......"dogged determination not to change one's attitude or position on something. Reading the synonyms sounded like reading waywardness. So, stubbornness is very intertwined in the wayward mindset. If she has been this stubborn most of her life, it would take a lot of motivation to change, IMHO. It can be done...….if she wants it. But things like telling you she is committed and wants the MR forever, etc. goes against her what I call "stubborn pride". My stubborn pride held me back a long time. It's terrible and it prevents true remorse & humbleness. I don't think I was anything comparable to your W, but I was older and may have had many more years of resentment stored, than she does.....IDK. Neither do I know what emotional baggage she may have brought into the MR that plays a part in her stubbornness. Again, this is where IC might be able to help her.

I suppose the way it is supposed to work is that as she gains respect and starts treating me differently (already happening), then naturally she will feel motivation to want our MR and change it for the better (right?).

Well, it's usually a little more complexed. I think she has to feel respect for you, in order to restore her sexual attraction. But let me point out something very important. Without her feeling remorse for her bad behavior and willing to cooperate in doing what is necessary to have a good MR...…..I think her ill treatment toward you will rear its ugly head frequently, b/c she's got to tear down those walls of selfishness and stubbornness. It's difficult for me to try to divide all of this into levels or steps. It all blends and works together.

The WW ends her affair, and then goes through affair withdrawals. The H requires respectful behavior from her, and in time, her feelings of disrespect begin to diminish and adoration begins to build..….which leads to sexual desire for her H. This usually softens her attitude and overall interactions with him, causing her to be more affectionate, and even feminine (especially if there is male dominance in their relationship). The extreme short cut version would be to say that she falls in love with her H, and that causes her to be motivated to work on the MR. However, I think this period of time varies with each case, and every WW has her own issues that must be resolved. That's not to say she can't work on them while the relationship progresses. See what I mean? It's like surgery, in some cases, and it takes time to cut away the cancer. Sometimes, treatment is required, and it takes time to completely heal. It's just not an overnight process.

I realize you are uncomfortable. All of this is tiring to you. Your NGS is screaming for you to settle back into your old accommodating patterns. Just understand something. If/When you do...….all her acts of disrespect returns with it. IDK how long you can give her time to work through her issues. There is no way to place a calendar date on things of this nature. IDK if she even realizes she has issues that need to be resolved. I really think IC could help her to identify some things in herself and how to work on them, and how to work with her spouse. In other words, she needs outside help. Depending on her level of waywardness (which stubbornness will be the main enemy) as to her willingness to seek help. Most couples do not enter into a relationship knowing one thing about how to make it work. Oh, they think they know, and most think that their MR will be different, yada, yada...…..but they are unprepared to deal with the day to day stuff that erodes the pipes to their loving feelings toward each other, and it starts breaking down. Becoming informed and getting the tools, is vital. Getting professional help to heal the issues that exist is smart, IMHO.

I apologize if I sound as if I'm rambling. I've had a lot of distraction since starting this post.

[44tries]

Here are a couple of things to consider. If you feel things have steadily improved since the day at the theme park, and you have seen nothing to indicate she is secretly texting, then to ask for proof at this point could possibly send her back to the other bedroom. This improved behavior may be all smoke and mirrors, but I based on her previous MO, I rather doubt it...….if she has sincerely changed as much as you try to make us believe. In other words, if you feel OM is out of the picture, than don't have a conversation. If you see her reverting back to sneaky behavior, then ask to see her messages, that she's not texting some other guy (not just the 19 yr old, but any guy). If you find her repeating old sneaky habits, don't ask her if the EA is over, and don't refer to the 19 yr old. If she's texting a new guy, it would be too easy for her to deflect from it by telling you the EA with 19 yr old was over.

Okay this really helps reassure me I am thinking along the right lines. I'm very confident she is not texting other guys since that trip. Of course, without proof, no one can say 100%, but I'm comfortable trusting this assumption for now. And I know what to look for and how to respond if it recurs.

Many people these days believe it is fine to have close friendships with the opposite sex. When it excludes the spouse, I think it becomes very threatening to the MR. If she doesn't have any female friends, and if all her friends are her co-workers (and most are men), it could be an easy trap for her. I would think the military offers counseling to couples. Whether or not she'd listen to a counselor, or even be willing to cooperate......is anyone's guess.

I understand completely. Especially since she is in the military, she is surrounded by a lot of men as females are the minority. Fortunately, she is not the flirty type and for the most part I am not too uneasy, but it's certainly an easy trap as you said. They do offer counseling, I'll have to look into more about the details, and obviously get her on board. I think I can get her there, actually. Not sure how long it will take, but I see it as achievable.

As long as you see no previous behavior that indicates she is hiding something, and as long as she continues to show respectful behavior......then I would not bring up the subject of the A, at this time. One reason is b/c you let it slide that day in the theme park and all this time has past since then...….so unless you see her acting sneaky again, or you have doubts about it......then why bring it up now, when she's returned to sleeping in your bed, etc.? That's not to say there won't be another incident and you'll need to address it then, but we are talking about right now. On the other hand, you may be a person who needs to know she is committed to the MR before you have sex with her. That's your decision. I just doubt she's going to voluntarily tell you she's committed, due to her stubbornness.

This is incredibly helpful, thank you. On the sex issue, that's such a huge part of the problem that I don't think those things (commitment and sex) are separate for me. Her wanting to have sex with me is something I am concerned about and am okay being patient with, but I don't want to end up trapped in a sexless situation.

I think commitment is what you really want from her. You'd like to hear those words from her, so you could relax and the two of you could live happily ever after. I don't think she'll say those words. Unless she received some excellent counseling and she was able to understand your needs, and the importance of her willingness, I don't think she'll say it. I think she'll just ease back into life with you, similar to how she eased back into sleeping in your bed. Yes, of course, she used the excuse of your parents visiting...….and she just continued after they left. No explanation, no conversation, and no commitment. Isn't that usually how she operates in most things, or am I wrong? If I were her, I'd probably see it as being easier than discussing it and dragging up the old stuff again. It common for the WW to want to put everything behind them and just pick up with up and start from "here" in their M. Plus, she's probably not ready for you to corner her about a commitment. This way is a smoother transfer back into the MBR, for her. Now, as to how genuine her feelings are...….I simply don't know. You have to decide if you are okay at this point....and if you can take a day at a time. If you are, and you see things progressing...….then go with it. If things start falling back, then you can discuss what to do.

Again, so so helpful. You are right--I do want commitment. If we are going to be married and she wants to buy a house, etc, I don't think it's normal to not feel a need for commitment. But that is something I question, because I wonder if my expectations are off. But it is extremely helpful to hear you say that it is actually normal for her to want to just ease back into life with me. You are right on the money about her using excuses and being non-open about it--yes, that is precisely how she usually operates. As long as it isn't a huge red flag, I'm okay with that. I don't need the grand gesture and I can take things a day at a time. My only concern is, this feels the same way it did a year ago when she initiated a mini-crisis and then it blew over without a word. I don't want to be in a cycle where she is never truly happy or satisfied and stays wayward, etc.

Sometimes it sounded a little like you were thinking she was suppose to have a period of bad behavior, so that's why I wanted to make sure we were on the same page. As I said, I think IC for her and MC for both of you, would do wonders for your MR. Without her getting IC, I think her stubbornness will be the destructive force in this relationship. I googled the word, stubbornness, and found......"dogged determination not to change one's attitude or position on something. Reading the synonyms sounded like reading waywardness. So, stubbornness is very intertwined in the wayward mindset. If she has been this stubborn most of her life, it would take a lot of motivation to change, IMHO. It can be done...….if she wants it. But things like telling you she is committed and wants the MR forever, etc. goes against her what I call "stubborn pride". My stubborn pride held me back a long time. It's terrible and it prevents true remorse & humbleness. I don't think I was anything comparable to your W, but I was older and may have had many more years of resentment stored, than she does.....IDK. Neither do I know what emotional baggage she may have brought into the MR that plays a part in her stubbornness. Again, this is where IC might be able to help her.

YES. You get it. It is honestly a major root of the problem. I hope I can get her to do IC.

Well, it's usually a little more complexed. I think she has to feel respect for you, in order to restore her sexual attraction. But let me point out something very important. Without her feeling remorse for her bad behavior and willing to cooperate in doing what is necessary to have a good MR...…..I think her ill treatment toward you will rear its ugly head frequently, b/c she's got to tear down those walls of selfishness and stubbornness. It's difficult for me to try to divide all of this into levels or steps. It all blends and works together.

The WW ends her affair, and then goes through affair withdrawals. The H requires respectful behavior from her, and in time, her feelings of disrespect begin to diminish and adoration begins to build..….which leads to sexual desire for her H. This usually softens her attitude and overall interactions with him, causing her to be more affectionate, and even feminine (especially if there is male dominance in their relationship). The extreme short cut version would be to say that she falls in love with her H, and that causes her to be motivated to work on the MR. However, I think this period of time varies with each case, and every WW has her own issues that must be resolved. That's not to say she can't work on them while the relationship progresses. See what I mean? It's like surgery, in some cases, and it takes time to cut away the cancer. Sometimes, treatment is required, and it takes time to completely heal. It's just not an overnight process.

This is a great illustration that helps me understand.

I realize you are uncomfortable. All of this is tiring to you. Your NGS is screaming for you to settle back into your old accommodating patterns. Just understand something. If/When you do...….all her acts of disrespect returns with it. IDK how long you can give her time to work through her issues. There is no way to place a calendar date on things of this nature. IDK if she even realizes she has issues that need to be resolved. I really think IC could help her to identify some things in herself and how to work on them, and how to work with her spouse. In other words, she needs outside help. Depending on her level of waywardness (which stubbornness will be the main enemy) as to her willingness to seek help. Most couples do not enter into a relationship knowing one thing about how to make it work. Oh, they think they know, and most think that their MR will be different, yada, yada...…..but they are unprepared to deal with the day to day stuff that erodes the pipes to their loving feelings toward each other, and it starts breaking down. Becoming informed and getting the tools, is vital. Getting professional help to heal the issues that exist is smart, IMHO.

Just what I needed to hear and be reminded of. A major pillar of positivity is that she is expressing a lot of motivation to better herself and her life. I believe she does realize she has issues she needs to work on and she has the desire to do so--and in a lot of ways has already begun.


Things are still moving in a positive direction. But I can see how her behavior with rear its head. I am running into a problem where she has started saying I am constantly assuming she is doing/saying something with bad intentions. I don't know if there is actually a problem with the way I am communicating and not tolerating disrespect, or if she is just pushing back to not having her way without resistance.

We took a last minute camping trip to celebrate my birthday. It was a blast and bucket list type trip. The only time we had any issues was when she felt I was overly critical. I am reflecting on my attitude and words and refocusing on myself and making sure I'm the spouse only a fool would leave. I think if I stick to the core principles I have been following since the beginning, things will keep progressing positiviely. Like Sandi mentioned, the biggest battle will be not settling back into old patterns and making sure the new ways stick.

[44tries]

Okay, might be setback time. Two nights ago I woke up at 4am and W was gone from the bed. I found her asleep in the spare bedroom. In the morning, she claimed she couldn't sleep all night and was having an anxiety attack (had to be at some intense training drills early in the morning). She has been saying she has had horrible sleep since moving back to the bed and yesterday mentioned she might need to go back to sleeping separately. Obviously, I wasn't happy, and she wasn't up for discussing it. She told me she didn't want to have the same conversation we have had on repeat for months (R talk). She asked if I thought everything was just magically better and then expressed that she is feeling suffocated again and doesn't think it will ever change. Since she didn't want to talk, I just listened and let it drop.

She did sleep in the bed last night and commented that I wasn't on my phone before we went to sleep. Then, this morning she said she actually got a good night's sleep for once. Hopefully, she continues to figure out how to sleep well in our bed and the threat of re-separation doesn't become a real issue. However, I have to think that it has a lot more to do with how she is feeling about us than actual sleeping trouble (I do believe this is a real problem, but one that is used as the excuse). So, I'm trying to evaluate what has happened to cause her to pull back and do this turn around. I think I ran a little too far ahead with subtle pursuit (body language, physical touch, etc). I haven't initiated any R talks, or pushed for any physicality, but since things were going better, I have let some affectionate behavior reappear like touching her back or giving a hug. However, this was in response to her becoming more affectionate herself! Now I am frustrated with myself, but also the situation. I can't help but feel like everything will always be dictated by her mood swings.

I'm trying to not let the emotional rollercoaster fatigue me. I think the most important thing for me to do is, like it always has been, focus on bettering myself. Frankly, I have been exhausted lately. I've let my desk get cluttered and my productivity has decreased. All of this probably adds up and has a contribution. So, back to the basics. It's actually incredibly helpful to have a foundation to go back to when things start to get hairy. I'm going to metaphorically splash some cold water on my face and get back to top form. I'm going to worry less about the minutiae of the relationship stuff and dial back on all forms of pursuit, breaking Sandi's rules, etc. The part I could use advice on is, if things turn positive again, what should I do differently? Not reciprocate when she gets closer/warmer?

Last thought...I sort of feel as though I'm building a house of cards and any bump in the road might cause it all to come crashing down again. Is that normal? And if so, will it go away? My biggest fear is being stuck this way forever.

[44tries]

After reading over my own post, I had the revelation that maybe this change has a lot less to do with me than I am giving credit. It's funny how easily I settle into my own perspective that is so different (and likely wrong) from someone like Sandi's who clearly sees the wayward mindset. Perhaps she is having a withdrawal, thinking about OM (or contacting, but I have seen no evidence), or just an influx of waywardness in general. There hasn't been a relapse in disrespectful behavior, thankfully. Just a pullback emotionally, physically, etc. I think she still resents feeling like I don't completely trust her or am subtly monitoring in the background (I'm not really doing anything besides keeping my eyes open). Coupled with feeling a surge of rebellion and no freedom to act, I could see this causing a pullback. There are small incidents that happen where that lack of trust is an elephant. Yesterday or the day before, she was telling me about how she was discussing a work issue with a girl who is associated with OM (they work together and were here at the same time). We were both acutely aware of that underlying awkwardness. At some point, I think the A will have to be discussed and everything in the open.

[SteveLW]

40,

I just exchanged postsin Jlh's thread on this phenomenon where LBSs get too anxious when DBing starts to work, and then being pursuing and pressuring and see the WAS run the other way.

So yes, go back to DBing, removing all pressure and pursuit. At the same time, this may have been a temporary "moment". If you have read my sitch, my W had one last rebellion against R and the MR in mid-February. It happens as the WAS is juggling emotions and on their own emotional roller-coaster. It took a lot for the WAS to drop the bomb on BD, and it is just as hard to come back from those proclamations. Once we as humans say something, it is difficult for us to go back on it. Especially when it is as big as ending a marriage.

I sort of feel as though I'm building a house of cards and any bump in the road might cause it all to come crashing down again. Is that normal? And if so, will it go away? My biggest fear is being stuck this way forever.

Yes this is normal, especially during limbo when your DBing is making gains. Until you get more solid ground underfoot, you are unsure. It feels like BD2 is impending. Even initially into piecing and R it feels like the ground is still moving beneath you.

But yes it will go away. Either you will move on to full piecing and R with a W who is now fully committed back to the MR. Or you will be moving towards D. DBing is about preparing for both eventualities. Limbo always feels unsteady and unsure. But it is necessary in the process. Let the process work.

But yes, even when she starts to warm and move back towards the MR keep DBing. Read the distance-pursuit dynamic thread again. She will pull when you push, and push when you pull. Always be pushing!

[SteveLW]

Sorry, should have been addressed to 44, not 40!

[sandi2]

Okay, might be setback time. Two nights ago I woke up at 4am and W was gone from the bed. I found her asleep in the spare bedroom. In the morning, she claimed she couldn't sleep all night and was having an anxiety attack (had to be at some intense training drills early in the morning). She has been saying she has had horrible sleep since moving back to the bed and yesterday mentioned she might need to go back to sleeping separately. Obviously, I wasn't happy, and she wasn't up for discussing it. She told me she didn't want to have the same conversation we have had on repeat for months (R talk). She asked if I thought everything was just magically better and then expressed that she is feeling suffocated again and doesn't think it will ever change. Since she didn't want to talk, I just listened and let it drop.

I see your W as being a major controller and game player. If she feels she is conforming too much, and she sees happier interactions from you.......she pulls back. It's her way of regaining power and to show you that the MR is not that easily fixed. I think it's her way of holding it over your head. It's important that she doesn't get the desired response. I suggest you not react, show no emotion, and most of all.....don't have a R talk. I suspect she just wanted to remind you that she's still in charge.

She asked if I thought everything was just magically better and then expressed that she is feeling suffocated again and doesn't think it will ever change. Since she didn't want to talk, I just listened and let it drop.

Good way to handle it, 44! Don't offer suggestions, show any emotional response, try to fix her, or argue with her feelings.

She did sleep in the bed last night and commented that I wasn't on my phone before we went to sleep.

Notice this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^, b/c she is talking in female code. She is telling you something that's very important to her. When it's time to snuggle down and go to sleep......she wants it to be just the two of you in bed. I remember you not appreciating her looking at her phone during dinner, so you have to set the example. I have to say I would not appreciate my H looking at his phone while we were in bed. It could be seen a little offensive, and IMHO, it's a killer for potential intimacy.

I have let some affectionate behavior reappear like touching her back or giving a hug. However, this was in response to her becoming more affectionate herself!

As long as she is treating you respectfully, then I see nothing wrong with this ^^^.

The part I could use advice on is, if things turn positive again, what should I do differently? Not reciprocate when she gets closer/warmer?

IMHO, the biggest problem for you is the NGS. When you feel overwhelmed, discouraged, defeated, etc.........you default to what feels comfortable for you, which is your NGS. I hope you'll read that book on NGS again. I think you've come a good way, but you get tired easily, b/c you feel as though you can't relax and be yourself. Having that book (that I can't mention) as your manual, might help you from falling back into old behavior patterns.

Last thought...I sort of feel as though I'm building a house of cards and any bump in the road might cause it all to come crashing down again. Is that normal? And if so, will it go away? My biggest fear is being stuck this way forever.

(((hugs))) That would make anyone a nervous wreck. You know what you want in a MR, and you told your W when you confronted her. As long as you feel respected and she's not playing her silly games or tests, then can't you relax a little and enjoy the moment? If she suddenly goes into her game playing........call her out and tell her you aren't playing her games. Detach and go about your business. When she straightens up, then resume to however things are now. You don't need to have a R discussion. In fact, I discourage it, b/c she is going to test you and she needs to see you calling her out and refusing to go along with it. Having a discussion just gives her fuel. BTW, I think you have done a fantastic job of not having those type of talks. I have the same nature, and want to fix things by talking, so I can appreciate how difficult it must be for you.

I think she likes what she is seeing in you. That's not to say she won't try her old stuff, but I really think she likes the new you.

[44tries]

Thank you Steve and Sandi, you are both so incredibly helpful. More than you know. It helps to know that limbo cannot last forever. I think part of the reason it makes me so uneasy is because it is sort of possible for it to go on indefinitely IF you have NGS. Essentially the year before BD for me was a little bit of limbo underneath it all. But that is because I buried all my needs in the relationship and gave her all the power because I was afraid to rock the boat. Now that I'm kicking all that NGS stuff to the curb, it's going to have to go one way or the other.

The positive progress I was enjoying before seems to have hit a plateau. Up until my birthday camping trip I felt she was consistently moving closer, but now her warmth has dimmed. I'm trying not to be overly concerned (still focusing on detachment). Sandi, I think your suggestion to reread NMMNG is spot on. Now is the perfect time to re-up on all those guiding principles.

I hope you are right and she is liking what she sees. I think she does, but there is still that big gap between not cheating/wanting a divorce to actually being in love with me. For some reason, it's so hard for me to imagine how we are going to get over that hump. I know it's the cliche--how to get that passion back once you've been together for years and it's gone. But there is definitely something missing and I guess it's TBD if we can find that something again. I still think my biggest enemy is her stubborn pride and the blaming. Lately, the blaming has been worse and I hope it's not going to be closely followed by all the rest of the old stuff. Any advice on how to handle it when she tries to blame me for...everything? I'm very tired of being blamed for things that are equal responsibility or legitimately nothing to do with me at all. I tell her right then and there that she is blaming me and I will not accept it, but it doesn't seem to help.

The longer time goes on and she seems to have not even a shred of humility, the more turned off I become. I'm struggling with LBS resentment and questioning if I'm going down the right road (how do I get 'once a cheater, always a cheater' out of my head?). The good news is that I think a lot of this is somewhat expected now that I have shifted my perspective and taken myself out of the 'bad guy' position. I can't tell you enough how important that part of this journey has been for me. Just realizing how I made so many excuses for her and shouldered all the blame myself has been so eye opening. I'm excited about how much I've grown individually these past few months and can't wait to push myself further.

[SteveLW]

Remember, the move towards R, if that is where you both are headed, is a process for her too. Just as you have ups and downs, so does she. I saw this with my W. She would cycle between being excited and leaving the MR, to being scared of leaving it. To being excited about our future together, to being sad that she was giving up her dream of a new life. She would be close some days, far away others. Attentive and affectionate one day. Sad and withdrawn the next.

I can't tell you the exact moment her demeanor switched from wrestling with staying and going and deciding that staying was what she wanted. It was a lot of little baby steps along the way. Steps that in an of themselves didn't mean much, but as time went on and they mounted up, began to show a direction. And a lot of it had to do with me. Was I pressuring and pursuing? Or being the lighthouse! Was I thinking about how my changes were affecting her, or was I just implementing them to be the best I could be? Was I mulling over in my head whether she'd stay or go, or was I at peace internally with whatever she ultimately would decide?

As the former in those morphed into the latter, so to did her re-commitment to the MR. As she saw me in MC owning my part in the problems of MR, without taking the responsibility off of her for the choices she had made that had us there, she started to trust the changes she had been seeing for weeks. The rebelling against the MR became further and farther between, and with shorter duration. She slowed down and eventually stopped reminding me that doing MC, spending time together, and even physical affection didn't mean she had decided to stay.

You mention "Lately, the blaming has been worse". My W did that too. I am not sure if this textbook DBing or not but I would remind her, when she'd say something like "yeah you always complained about the floors not being swept!", I'd say, "Yeah I used to be that way, but I am not anymore." She couldn't argue. That is the beauty of 180s. You can take ownership of your past bad behavior, and then point out that you aren't like that anymore. If it is true at a minimum then they can't say anything to the contrary. Many times my W would follow with "that is true, you haven't done that in a long time".

Reread the validation thread again too, 44. Listen to her blaming. Validate her feelings. Do not disagree or agree with what she is saying. Disagreeing leads to conflict. Agreeing leads to her thinking her rewritten history is the truth. My method was a combination of all three! I would validate her feelings on it. "Yeah, I used to be that way but I know it made you feel bad. But I am not like that anymore." See what I did? I admitted the past behavior. Validated her feelings. And had the opportunity to point out that I had stopped the behavior (which then caused her to take note of the fact "Hey, yeah, he hasn't complained about the floors in a long time!".

Okay, this got lengthy. The point 44 is that you are an exciting phase. There are many signs that your W is moving in the right direction. Just keep controlling yourself to keep the 180s, continue to GAL, and remain healthily and lovingly detached. She will cycle through ups and downs. It is kind of like the stock market. It doesn't matter what the stock did yesterday, or today, or what it will do tomorrow. The overall trend is the key! So try not to look at her behavior myopically focused on now....step back and look at whether the trend over time is in the right or wrong direction.

[SteveLW]

44, any update?

[44tries]

Hey guys, sorry for the delay in updating. Things are are still improving slowly, but surely. I think we got over the stall that occurred a couple weeks ago and I can see progress happening again. W's behavior toward me is still much better and I haven't seen any major relapses. Occasionally, we may get into a squabble and I can see flashes of that old, stubborn, disrespect. But, I think she has really made it a priority to change and genuinely grow, which is very positive. Both of use are in a place where we have high motivation for self-improvement and right now we are working together as a team and lifting each other up more than we have in a long time.

I am having patience with the limbo period. I'm not in any rush and I know there's a long way to go before I can really say we are out of the woods. My biggest concern is her lack of vulnerability. Like I said, I am hopeful as she is obviously willing to do work and make positive changes, and I know she is aware of this issue in herself. However, it's such an ingrained trait and that stubborn pride is a powerful enemy. I think IC is going to be very important and I am going to advocate for it in the near future.

We still haven't had any real R talks, discussion of the A, etc. I don't really know when is the right time. But I have a feeling she isn't going to be the one to bring it up and it makes me slightly uneasy. Is that normal and to be expected? If I am the one to do it, I want there to be a clear purpose.

On a physical front, things are still very slow. Aside from cuddling in bed/on the couch and the occasional short kiss, she doesn't seem to be too interested in much. That's fine...unless it lasts forever. Any thoughts on what I should expect in this department and how to handle it? I may have been remained silent about being in a sexless marriage before, but I'm not going to settle for it anymore. Taking all those NMMNG lessons to heart.

Will update again soon.

[uk82]

You’ve come a long way - back from the brink. The physical stuff will surely take time given where you’ve been. Have patience and build back the trust and this will fall into place I would imagine.

[SteveLW]

Hey guys, sorry for the delay in updating. Things are are still improving slowly, but surely. I think we got over the stall that occurred a couple weeks ago and I can see progress happening again. W's behavior toward me is still much better and I haven't seen any major relapses. Occasionally, we may get into a squabble and I can see flashes of that old, stubborn, disrespect. But, I think she has really made it a priority to change and genuinely grow, which is very positive. Both of use are in a place where we have high motivation for self-improvement and right now we are working together as a team and lifting each other up more than we have in a long time.

I am having patience with the limbo period. I'm not in any rush and I know there's a long way to go before I can really say we are out of the woods. My biggest concern is her lack of vulnerability. Like I said, I am hopeful as she is obviously willing to do work and make positive changes, and I know she is aware of this issue in herself. However, it's such an ingrained trait and that stubborn pride is a powerful enemy. I think IC is going to be very important and I am going to advocate for it in the near future.

We still haven't had any real R talks, discussion of the A, etc. I don't really know when is the right time. But I have a feeling she isn't going to be the one to bring it up and it makes me slightly uneasy. Is that normal and to be expected? If I am the one to do it, I want there to be a clear purpose.

On a physical front, things are still very slow. Aside from cuddling in bed/on the couch and the occasional short kiss, she doesn't seem to be too interested in much. That's fine...unless it lasts forever. Any thoughts on what I should expect in this department and how to handle it? I may have been remained silent about being in a sexless marriage before, but I'm not going to settle for it anymore. Taking all those NMMNG lessons to heart.

Will update again soon.

So 44, on the affection/physical front. Be aware that you may be in a period of a new normal.

These kinds of things morph and change overtime in relationships. Think about the early, honeymoon, any and everything goes period, vs. the more settled in once or twice a week (or less) more straight ahead sex, etc.

In my sitch, my W is not interested in the passionate, tongue kissing like she once was. I've talked to others and this is not an unusual change in longtime Rs. My W is much less into snuggling on the couch, and holding hands, that sort of thing. It isn't that she is anti-affection now, just not as into initiating and not into as often as she was when she was younger. Things have improved in other ways too though. Like during sex she is much more into it, and it is more satisfying, and more of a connection than it was in years past.

Lots of good progress here from where you were several months ago. I agree that you do not have to settle for a SSM. Get into MC, and make sure she is agreeable to working on things before accepting full R.

[sandi2]

We still haven't had any real R talks, discussion of the A, etc. I don't really know when is the right time. But I have a feeling she isn't going to be the one to bring it up and it makes me slightly uneasy.

She's not going to bring it up to discuss, and frankly, I don't believe anything will be made better by discussing the affair. I'm not saying you shouldn't ever talk about it, but I don't think she'll change due to a discussion. She'll react like she did the last time, leaving ends untied and you'll not get the answers you want or the satisfaction. You need an unbiased third party......like a professional MC.

My suggestion is to make up your mind as to when you are ready to go either way in the M, and then tell her if the M continues, that the two of you will need to attend MC until the issues in the MR can be resolved and you can learn the skills needed in this relationship. As long as she sees you putting up with this style of living arrangements, and no commitment from her...….I think she is going to continue doing the same old stuff, b/c unfinished business was never settled. To her, it's a game of manipulation.

I agree that you've come a long way, but I sense something is off b/c you are not posting like you once were. That's usually a sign that the member has given up. I'm concerned that maybe you've been reading some other material, like previously, and it messes with your NGS. Even if you don't have much to update, you can post on other threads. Just don't forsake all the hard work you've done thus far.

((hugs))

[ovrrnbw]

Hi 44,

just wanted to say that I haven't commented on your thread in a while, but I've continued to follow it. One thing I've noticed is that you are looking for some major progress - which you should be. But given your situation, I think that things aren't moving at an unreasonable pace either. Rome wasn't built in a day, but like MWD says, the small, consistent actions will mean more than anything else.

Keep on keeping on!

[44tries]

ovrrnbw, thank you for your post, it's a great reminder and very true. It really helps to have outside input reassure me that we are still headed in the right direction.

Sandi, I completely agree with you that MC is going to be necessary and, hopefully, a huge help. Only problem is, I don't know if she will go. Last week she brought up that her coworker and his W were 'already' going counseling (they've been married a year I think). I asked where they were going because this installation does not have those kind of services and she said they were going to a different branch's base about an hour away. I got a little excited and said I didn't know that was possible, can we go? She said no. It wasn't a heated argument or anything, but I asked why not and she said because I will only be disappointed and hurt to hear all the honesty, even though I already know it and am in denial (her words). Yes, W, I'm well aware of the issues and not in denial (I didn't say this). Apparently, not 'accepting' her lack of feelings and walking away means I'm in denial that we have MR problems. I think the real reason she doesn't want to go to counseling is because it scares her and she is worried what other people would think; clearly she upholds some stigma about it given her gossip over her coworker. But, the reason doesn't really matter, I just don't know if/how she will change her mind.

The irony is that she tells me I need to go to counseling! In the past couple weeks, she has been acting like I am a total failure and making me feel like trash. She says she is holding me accountable and pushing me to be better, which in fairness is kind of working because I value her input and it motivates me. However, I feel like no matter how hard I try, there is just more criticism. If I forget one task, I hear never ending comments on me being irresponsible, procrastinating, etc. If I say the wrong thing, she claims I am always rude and treating her badly. Some of the stuff she says aligns with my true weaknesses and I understand her point, but I'm left wondering if I'm really THAT bad. I really try to self-assess and reflect, but it's sort of bizarre to feel like you're doing the right things and see no positive effects. My dad is the king of denial, lack of self-awareness, and is guilty of a lot of things my W complains about. I know I am like him in a lot of ways, so it is quite troubling to me to hear my W parroting the same gripes I've heard from my mom and siblings about my dad for years. But, I am doing my best and I truly feel that the best thing I can do is keep trying to make myself better. It's the DB way all along, and I think it applies no matter what stage you are in. If I can't stand there and say that have successfully battled my personal flaws, then I have no grounds to assess the struggle against the MR issues. So personal improvement and working on my hyper-focus, procrastination/time management, and taking more time to think before I speak are my priorities right now.

Also Sandi, I wanted to address the part where you suggest maybe I have given up. Not the case at all. I don't feel despondent about the situation; I am not sure whether or not we will make it all the way, but I'm still focused on giving it the best chance and am at peace with whatever outcome. Some days my resentment is higher than others and I question if it's really worth it, but I'm certainly not giving up. I am working on the resentment because that might be what fuels some of my tone/word choice issues with W. I will try to post more frequently, it's a good suggestion to post on other threads if I don't have an update. It feels like nothing new is happening for my MR lately, which is why I don't have things I feel compelled to post. W no longer mentions anything like D or separation and all of her talk of the future is about 'us'. Yet, the issues remain and I guess that's not surprising because they will take a long time to solve. So, I feel I am at some random mile in the marathon, with nothing terribly exciting happening, which is fine.

[sandi2]

She says she is holding me accountable and pushing me to be better, which in fairness is kind of working because I value her input and it motivates me.

Who is holding her accountable? You see, when/if the WW makes the decision to end her affair and save her M, it's the H who holds her accountable. So, like several other things, this is completely out of order. As always, she is treating you as if she is your employer. She's just calling it by nicer term.

However, I feel like no matter how hard I try, there is just more criticism. If I forget one task, I hear never ending comments on me being irresponsible, procrastinating, etc. If I say the wrong thing, she claims I am always rude and treating her badly. Some of the stuff she says aligns with my true weaknesses and I understand her point, but I'm left wondering if I'm really THAT bad. I really try to self-assess and reflect, but it's sort of bizarre to feel like you're doing the right things and see no positive effects.

Do you feel you are back to the place you were when you joined the board (hopefully. minus an A)? B/c what you said in the quote above, sounds very familiar.

Yet, the issues remain and I guess that's not surprising because they will take a long time to solve.

Some issues do take time, especially if it involves healing. However, I think you are stuck in this way of thinking that none of this should be surprising. It should not be an excuse to accept how she treats you.....by saying, "Well, this will take a long time". No, you have allowed her to treat you this way, and she will continue getting worse. People who know right from wrong can change how they treat others, practically overnight. It's healing that takes times. By what your W says, she already knows what is wrong but she doesn't want to hear it. I think she doesn't want to be told that "she" is wrong and needs to act right toward her H. She prefers do continue things as they are, b/c she wants someone to pick on. It should be unacceptable. Unacceptable means that you won't put up with it.......if you stay in this M. As long as she sees you accepting what she dishes out, then she's going to continue the same old stuff. I usually have to remind impatient posters that it takes time, but in your case, I think a lot more should have been done by this point. So, please stop this mindset that this is all going at a normal pace, b/c I'm concerned it is giving you a victim mentality. As long as you were writing how the two of you were getting along better, then I thought maybe some progress was being slowly made. But then when you stopped posting regularly, I became concerned things were sliding.

You are correct that it takes time when people are having to work through issues. However, if the other person has issues that stem from their raising, family of origin, or years of an unhealthy R........then major professional help is usually required. It also takes time when behavior patterns have to be broken and re-trained. Depending on the individual stitch as to how serious and how long it will take. If there was a lot of bad history in the R with betrayal, abuse, deceit, etc..........it takes time for the healing to be compete. And here's the thing, 44. It takes cooperation to do what is necessary to heal, b/c it does take moving forward and it does take the help of a professional to guide the individual or couple through the healing process. Make sense? Yes, you can call her out about bad behavior and disrespect, but if she has deeper issues that is causing her to act like a control freak, then what steps are being made to work through it? If she has some inner demons, it will affect the MR. Therefore, you have a say in it. How is the MR progressing toward a healthy outcome, if nothing is being done toward the issues that got you here? I mean, I don't know if she has demons from her past. She acts like a spoiled brat who likes to bully, but that's just MHO. I've seen nothing from her that suggest she is trying to change or wants to do anything to having a good MR. As young as you are and no longer than you've been M, just trying to endure each day doesn't seem like a lot of progress at this point. And, you are wearing down........which means you are getting a little weaker. You stay stronger when you are in touch with the board, and reading.

Is she still sleeping in the spare bedroom?

Hope to hear back from you soon. ((hugs))

[44tries]

Who is holding her accountable? You see, when/if the WW makes the decision to end her affair and save her M, it's the H who holds her accountable. So, like several other things, this is completely out of order. As always, she is treating you as if she is your employer. She's just calling it by nicer term.

This is good insight. Is the ideal that we are holding each other accountable?

Do you feel you are back to the place you were when you joined the board (hopefully. minus an A)? B/c what you said in the quote above, sounds very familiar.

I agree there are familiar patterns. I would not say I feel we are back to the place we were when I joined. However, I would like to be farther away from it than we are.

Some issues do take time, especially if it involves healing. However, I think you are stuck in this way of thinking that none of this should be surprising. It should not be an excuse to accept how she treats you.....by saying, "Well, this will take a long time". No, you have allowed her to treat you this way, and she will continue getting worse. People who know right from wrong can change how they treat others, practically overnight. It's healing that takes times. By what your W says, she already knows what is wrong but she doesn't want to hear it. I think she doesn't want to be told that "she" is wrong and needs to act right toward her H. She prefers do continue things as they are, b/c she wants someone to pick on. It should be unacceptable. Unacceptable means that you won't put up with it.......if you stay in this M. As long as she sees you accepting what she dishes out, then she's going to continue the same old stuff. I usually have to remind impatient posters that it takes time, but in your case, I think a lot more should have been done by this point. So, please stop this mindset that this is all going at a normal pace, b/c I'm concerned it is giving you a victim mentality. As long as you were writing how the two of you were getting along better, then I thought maybe some progress was being slowly made. But then when you stopped posting regularly, I became concerned things were sliding.

I'm really glad you touched on how people's behavior can in fact change practically overnight. You are right there are times she wants someone to pick on and there's no excuse for it to be me. I don't think I have a victim mentality, I only just got over the mindset of shouldering the burden of being the "bad guy". Part of the process I describe as being slow is my own healing. It's curious because I thought the healing process would be linear with time, and every day better than the last. But I've been battling my own mind lately as the healing seems to have gone backward. I've had increased resentment and feelings of hurt and I'm not sure why.

As far as getting along better, we are. Most days are good. We just got back from a vacation with another couple that went great. There are still bad moments, but for example the only one I can think of in the past week was the night we came home and it was very late and we were tired, but W had homework to finish. I got fed up with her nagging me about shaking my leg (a bad habit which she hates) and told her to back off. She got pouty and left the room and proceeded to ignore (re punish) me when I later checked up on her and her work progress. This sort of immature dysfunctional communication still prevails in times when she gets hurt or angry. I'm sure I'm not perfect either, but I don't resort to passive aggressive/manipulating tactics. Of course, when she got to a point when she really needed my help with something, she swallowed her pride and we both apologized and that was that.

You are correct that it takes time when people are having to work through issues. However, if the other person has issues that stem from their raising, family of origin, or years of an unhealthy R........then major professional help is usually required. It also takes time when behavior patterns have to be broken and re-trained. Depending on the individual stitch as to how serious and how long it will take. If there was a lot of bad history in the R with betrayal, abuse, deceit, etc..........it takes time for the healing to be compete. And here's the thing, 44. It takes cooperation to do what is necessary to heal, b/c it does take moving forward and it does take the help of a professional to guide the individual or couple through the healing process. Make sense? Yes, you can call her out about bad behavior and disrespect, but if she has deeper issues that is causing her to act like a control freak, then what steps are being made to work through it? If she has some inner demons, it will affect the MR. Therefore, you have a say in it. How is the MR progressing toward a healthy outcome, if nothing is being done toward the issues that got you here? I mean, I don't know if she has demons from her past. She acts like a spoiled brat who likes to bully, but that's just MHO. I've seen nothing from her that suggest she is trying to change or wants to do anything to having a good MR. As young as you are and no longer than you've been M, just trying to endure each day doesn't seem like a lot of progress at this point. And, you are wearing down........which means you are getting a little weaker. You stay stronger when you are in touch with the board, and reading.

I like how you illustrate why her personal issues are my business, in a sense. She has her share of emotional wounds from the past, but it's very difficult for me to assess them or compare them to "average". Interestingly, that is a problem I run into a lot which is that I don't know what to expect. I never know if I'm expecting too much or too little.

Your sentence I highlighted about what we are doing toward the issues that got us here essentially touches the bottom line. I do not feel confident we are away form those issues. Have we made some progress? Some, yes. But it feels like the progress is stalling and we're still so far from the goal. You are certainly right that enduring each day is not a positive place to be. To be fair, I don't feel I am simply enduring each day. Like I said, most days are good. She is still very focused on herself and what I can do to help her rather than the other way around, but I can tell she's trying. (Five months until we move and I can go back to working full-time the same as her). We don't have stormy fights nearly as often, and majority of our interaction is friendly and respectful. My main concern is the lack of passion that landed us here in the first place. We can be great friends, but with that missing piece always an elephant in the room, she will be at risk for repeating an affair and both of us living in an unfulfilled marriage. I'm no longer willing to settle for this.

The good news is, she said she will go to counseling. She just doesn't want to go to military doctors for fear of her career. That's fine with me, but I don't know how to find an alternative until we are back in the states. We had a sort of cathartic conversation the night before we left on our vacation where we were talking about the future and how a separation (as in long distance) will probably be inevitable in a year or two as she begins her program and we consider buying a house somewhere. Having been struggling a lot with my own healing, I could not help but express my concern with this given the way things are going (ie my trust is not restored). She told me she cannot promise me 100% she will want to be with me for the rest of her life. I told her I know she feels that way, but I need to know 100% that what happened (the affair) is never going to happen again. She assured me it would not and I decided it was time to discuss some of my questions and unknowns about the whole thing since it was clearly eating at me. I didn't learn anything game-changing, but some blanks were filled in. I feel I got some closure regarding the whole situation and can really focus on moving past it. She was open and (presumably) honest, and patiently answered whatever I asked. She told me she regretted it and wouldn't do it over again, but I could tell she is holding onto a small amount of justification surrounding her feelings (or lack thereof). She isn't brushing the problems that brought the affair about in the first place under the rug, which is a good thing. But those issues need to be solvable and we haven't gotten there yet.

A part of me wonders if whatever's "missing" for her isn't real commitment itself. Clearly she has always had one foot out and was able to make the choice (or "say screw it" as she says) to be selfish and dishonor whatever commitment she had made prior. When (if ever) will she make that choice to truly make herself vulnerable and get rid of her safety nets? To be honest, it's harder than it sounds and I understand the difficulty. But I think our lack of intimacy could be largely blamed on those issues, which goes back to the inner demon discussion. I just find myself constantly wondering if I'm fighting the current on something that isn't solvable, or if there is a pot of gold on the other side.

Is she still sleeping in the spare bedroom?

No, she has been back in the MBR since July; I need to update my signature. There is no more separation, but obviously we are not past the "not 100% sure I want to be with you forever" stage.

[44tries]

Okay I need some advice on a specific situation. W is having surgery in a couple weeks. Not too major, but will render her unable to drive, do her hair, open a jar, etc for 2-4 weeks. So, she has been asking me several times now if I'm sure I'm ready to provide the support she will need. I've assured her it will be fine and I will fill in for the stuff she can't do. Of all people--and I'm sure everyone on the board knows this--I certainly will not have a problem waiting on her, post-op. Since I have spent months cutting back on this type of behavior, it seems this is the reason she is concerned. That I will refuse some request if I feel I'm doing too much. I told her as long as she had appropriate expectations, I'm sure I will be there for whatever she needs. I asked her if she seriously had doubts about that because, frankly, it's a bit absurd. It feels more like she is asking for a hall pass in advance to be a b!tch and treat me like crap (I never would have thought any of those things before I came to this board). But this is the third or so time she had brought it up, so I decided to explore the issue a bit further. I don't remember my exact words, but I think I said something like "what is the real reason you keep worrying about this? because it doesn't make sense for you to be legitimately concerned." Of course she called me out on invalidating her feelings (which is absolutely true but I'm using the WW exception, perhaps incorrectly?) and she wanted nothing to do with me the rest of the night.

This has happened more than once since I started telling her I won't be manipulated or play any silly games. She gets very offended by me implying she is playing games. I don't know if this is all part of the act, if I'm somehow wrong and I'm not applying what I've learned on the board properly, or if she is genuinely hurt by my assumptions. But I would love to hear input, especially from Sandi, about what I should do in these situations.

I am confident the affair stuff is behind us and she is not hiding anything in that regard. We had a brief discussion about a week ago when I saw a text from OM come in on her phone. She didn't know I saw it and I watched carefully to see what she would do. As far as I could tell, she quickly put it away and never responded. Later, she told me it was a random message about a mutual friend and she just deleted it. But it brought up the fact that she is still friends with OM on Facebook and Instagram and I asked if she had considered what I might think about that. She said she had thought about it. But that ultimately there's nothing there and it doesn't matter. She seems to have a habit of discounting my feelings as something that matters.

There is still a lack of intimate connection between us and I think a lot of it is due to this lack of transparency she can't seem to let go of. I don't know why she has such a problem being real. Other times I wonder if that's just the real her.

[SteveLW]

Okay first, ALWAYS BE VALIDATING.

"I can see why you would be concerned with that. However, I am willing to do whatever you need to have done for you post-op, however, due to our past I am still a little fearful about being taken advantage of."

You validated. Then you told her how you feel.

You are in a tricky period 44. Moving on from MR problems into piecing and R is fraught with peril. You have to juggle the delicate balancing act of continuing to DB but also knowing when to NOT DB when appropriate. It isn't easy. At all.
It is an art not a science. The actions of a LBS when they are moving towards piecing and R can make or break that movement.

But let me tell you, this reminds me of my W's first EA in 2005. Found out about it in the fall. She immediately sent a no contact email to EAP, which he was very open to since he didn't want me to tell his W about what was going on. In fact, he adhered to it better than my W did! (She had a few acts of rebellion leading up to finally moving back to R and piecing.) We remained in limbo with her being very distant, thought mostly transparent, until spring of 2006. In May of 2006 things still could have gone either way. She was saying she wanted to save the MR, but she wasn't really doing any work towards that. She had told some friends of hers (in an email I intercepted through transparency) that though she wanted the MR and she didn't want D, that she still so wanted to pursue an R with the AP. She wanted to want to R but her heart wasn't in it.

By May of 2006 we were still very much in a state of limbo. Our MR had been a SSM, and it wasn't improving post all of the EA stuff. The week before Memorial Day she came down with appendicitis. I was out of town, and when I came home she was laid up on the couch, not feeling well. I said "is it your appendix?" She said her whole abdomen hurt not just the right side. The next morning she couldn't even stand up. So I called my parents, had them come get our D (who was just under 3 at the time), and took her to ER.

Her appendix has pretty much exploded by then, and she was in the hospital for 5 days, surgery the first night, and got pumped full of IV antibiotics for the extent of her stay. I went into nurse mode and did everything for her. Took days off work, even cleaned her up after the bathroom (she was so sore after the laparoscopic surgery that she couldn't do that herself).

My taking such good care of her pushed us over the edge into full blown R. And she was fully committed to the MR and working on R after that. (It should be noted that we didn't really deal with underlying issues and do all the work we should have done which led us 12 years later to where we were at the end of last year).

My point is that this could be an huge opportunity to take your reconciliation to the next level.

[neffer]

And, without confronting, just review the boudaries about transparency. Keeping contact with OM is a no go.

[44tries]

Steve, what a great example you gave of how your W's appendicitis became the catalyst for true recon in your sitch. I will definitely remember it going into my W's surgery. I think I have some personal "letting go" to do to make my attitude a little more positive and not always be looking the negative in my W's behavior.

I guess part of the struggle for me knowing where the waywardness stops. After having my eyes opened so much by the board and learning to identify all the underlying motivations of wayward behavior, I don't know when I can go back to trusting my W again. It almost feels like having a spouse you wonder might be a spy. I just don't want to be naive or go back to the old ways and experience this all over again, continuing to be in the position of lesser power. Can I ask you, Steve, what specifically do you think you neglected to do that could have prevented a repeat 12 years later? I will admit, this is now one of my most prominent fears that holds me back from diving into full recon. I do NOT want to look back and be disappointed in the judgments I make today.

Neffer, 100% correct OM contact is a no go and I know she knows that (and so far seems to be able to follow it without reminders based on her account that she promptly deleted the text). The question is whether I should demand she delete him from social media. I don't want to be controlling, and to be honest I don't feel it matters whether or not they are "friends" if they wanted to carry on inappropriate contact. But at the same time, I deleted one of her co-workers and his W upon her request because she didn't "want any association" with them any longer (totally unrelated situation). The fact she doesn't delete someone she had an AFFAIR with, sort of blows my mind. And that right there is the principle of my problem. It isn't about whether or not she will delete him if I demand it; she probably would, with or without a squabble. It's the fact that she didn't already do it on her own as a no-brainer. That shows the level of inherent disrespect, to me. And there is no amount of communication that solves that problem.

We openly aknowledge her lack of respect for me and have discussed it a couple times. Just the other day, she bluntly admitted she thinks I'm a weak person. That stings. But the only thing I can do is take it upon myself to make changes that combat that opinion. Since we had the open conversation about the affair and went on vacation, I feel a little bit of ice has been broken (not to imply things were icy) and we have been getting along especially well. It gives me hope that we can find that connection again. Every time I start to wonder if I'm crazy and we just aren't meant for each other, I'm reminded of how much love and fondness we do have and it goes both ways. But it's like lightning in a bottle and I'm trying to figure out how to bring it to the surface and sustain it.

[neffer]

Transparency rules must be acomplished 44. She must agree to go N/C. Stand for yourself there. It´s about respect.
You need to be a strong person so feel it: you are a strong person.

Leave the weakness for the waywards (including myself here...)

You can do it man!

[SteveLW]

Can I ask you, Steve, what specifically do you think you neglected to do that could have prevented a repeat 12 years later? I will admit, this is now one of my most prominent fears that holds me back from diving into full recon. I do NOT want to look back and be disappointed in the judgments I make today.

44 great question. And one that I've thought about briefly, but will discuss in depth here as I have thoughts about it.

The first thing I have said is that we didn't deal with our marital problems properly after her first EA. When I caught it, and confronted, she immediately said she didn't want a divorce, and wanted to R. (Note, she was saying this with her lips but her heart was far from it!) I insisted on NC between her and OM. I insisted on complete transparency. Etc.

Other than that, we pretty much went on with business as usual. We didn't deal with our SSM. I didn't work on the anger and resentment I had about her not wanting sex. From Oct. 2005 when I found out about her EA, until Dec. 2017 when I found about her new EA, nothing changed! We never went into MR 2.0 mode. We just carried on with MR 1.0.

So how are things different this time? That might be the better answer.

First, I did a lot of 180ing. I realized that my controlling, angry, bitter, withdrawn existence, where her and my daughter felt they had to walk on eggshells around me had to change. I needed to give up selfishness. I needed to give up fear and lack of risk taking. I had to work on who I was, find out what made me tick, what from my past informed the person I had become.

Second, she had to do a lot of work on herself. She had started to exhibit many of the same traits. After 2006 she started trying to be a W again. But I was resistant to it. There were many times she would prepare meals and I would sit down, lead a prayer of thanksgiving, then eat as fast as I could and not communicate with my W and D at all. Get up, clean my plate, and go back to what I had been doing.

Third, counseling. IC and MC All around. 1 and 2 above are meaningless without an independent, non-biased third party to help discuss, give different perspectives, and essentially kick you in the pants. One of my first counseling session the C asked me why I felt the need to parent my W. She was likewise asked why she viewed me more as a father-figure as opposed to a H and lover. Eye-opening to say the least.

Fourth consistency. We are 10 months past BD. By that time in 2006 I had already started to slip back into some of my poor behaviors prior to the BD 2005. She was very leery that my changes this time were permanent because of what happened in 2006 and following. Again, a lot of that was because of the lack of #1 above. I hadn't done the work.

44, it is also important to realize the natural progression of life and relationships. Even if you both do everything right there are ups and downs. There are pressures and problems. There are temptations in and out. But couple that natural progression, along with aging and the questions that causes us to ask (like her turning 50 and thinking this was her last chance at happiness), with a MR that is diseased, decaying, and/or non-existent, and you can pretty much ensure something happening like happened to us last year.

Due to those natural factors I mentioned, you can never be assured of NOT having a spouse step out of the marriage. Spouses even in good marriages go astray. So there are no guarantees against it. But you can guarantee that one or both will step out of the marriage when that marriage isn't what it should be.

Hope all this helps. AS I just told rose in her thread, there are only two options after BD, a both mean an end to the marriage. The first is MR 2.0. The second is D and moving on separate. If you try to keep MR 1.0 you are only temporarily putting off the inevitable.

[ED133]

Steve,
Thanks for sharing that. Thsts kind of what happened to me. Only it was 2 years later. We stopped MC. Therapist actually said we were good and don't have to come back.
We never dealt with the affair and healing after it.
Also WW never worked on her issues.

Hopefully we do better this time

[sandi2]

I guess part of the struggle for me knowing where the waywardness stops.

I thought I had answered that question in the past. You will know it is gone when her actions, attitude and words are parallel and she is working harmonious with you every day. I've told you in the past what would be required for her to get to that place, 44, so don't act like you've never read it.

Can I ask you, Steve, what specifically do you think you neglected to do that could have prevented a repeat 12 years later? I will admit, this is now one of my most prominent fears that holds me back from diving into full recon. I do NOT want to look back and be disappointed in the judgments I make today.

You asked this of Steve, but I'm going to give my thoughts and see if his is any different. If you don't get it right from the beginning...…...I mean, know what it is you require of that woman before ever giving her a chance to "reconcile", or you may face the consequences of an unrepentant woman, who feels no remorse for her actions and who continues significantly in testing her H in very childish and irritating ways for a woman of her age. Plus she continues in keeping private friendships and holds secrets from him (mostly phone messages). Eventually, this activity will lead to another betrayal, if something does not happen to open her harden heart, b/c she was allowed to continue on in the relationship without committing to the M or her H. She refused to cooperate in any type of transparency plan...….or much of anything else. U rthi8nk she tried to get by with one she made up, which of course, gave no reassurances about anything. If I'm wrong, please correct me that she never gave a sincere, humble apology and said she's never to do it again. As for making any progress...…..I suppose that would be determined by you, since you have decided to live with her. However I will say that the good news lately is that she may give consent to see a counselor......so that is encouraging if the right counselor can be found.