Affair, no feelings...is there hope? V

[44tries]

Okay, might be setback time. Two nights ago I woke up at 4am and W was gone from the bed. I found her asleep in the spare bedroom. In the morning, she claimed she couldn't sleep all night and was having an anxiety attack (had to be at some intense training drills early in the morning). She has been saying she has had horrible sleep since moving back to the bed and yesterday mentioned she might need to go back to sleeping separately. Obviously, I wasn't happy, and she wasn't up for discussing it. She told me she didn't want to have the same conversation we have had on repeat for months (R talk). She asked if I thought everything was just magically better and then expressed that she is feeling suffocated again and doesn't think it will ever change. Since she didn't want to talk, I just listened and let it drop.

She did sleep in the bed last night and commented that I wasn't on my phone before we went to sleep. Then, this morning she said she actually got a good night's sleep for once. Hopefully, she continues to figure out how to sleep well in our bed and the threat of re-separation doesn't become a real issue. However, I have to think that it has a lot more to do with how she is feeling about us than actual sleeping trouble (I do believe this is a real problem, but one that is used as the excuse). So, I'm trying to evaluate what has happened to cause her to pull back and do this turn around. I think I ran a little too far ahead with subtle pursuit (body language, physical touch, etc). I haven't initiated any R talks, or pushed for any physicality, but since things were going better, I have let some affectionate behavior reappear like touching her back or giving a hug. However, this was in response to her becoming more affectionate herself! Now I am frustrated with myself, but also the situation. I can't help but feel like everything will always be dictated by her mood swings.

I'm trying to not let the emotional rollercoaster fatigue me. I think the most important thing for me to do is, like it always has been, focus on bettering myself. Frankly, I have been exhausted lately. I've let my desk get cluttered and my productivity has decreased. All of this probably adds up and has a contribution. So, back to the basics. It's actually incredibly helpful to have a foundation to go back to when things start to get hairy. I'm going to metaphorically splash some cold water on my face and get back to top form. I'm going to worry less about the minutiae of the relationship stuff and dial back on all forms of pursuit, breaking Sandi's rules, etc. The part I could use advice on is, if things turn positive again, what should I do differently? Not reciprocate when she gets closer/warmer?

Last thought...I sort of feel as though I'm building a house of cards and any bump in the road might cause it all to come crashing down again. Is that normal? And if so, will it go away? My biggest fear is being stuck this way forever.

[44tries]

After reading over my own post, I had the revelation that maybe this change has a lot less to do with me than I am giving credit. It's funny how easily I settle into my own perspective that is so different (and likely wrong) from someone like Sandi's who clearly sees the wayward mindset. Perhaps she is having a withdrawal, thinking about OM (or contacting, but I have seen no evidence), or just an influx of waywardness in general. There hasn't been a relapse in disrespectful behavior, thankfully. Just a pullback emotionally, physically, etc. I think she still resents feeling like I don't completely trust her or am subtly monitoring in the background (I'm not really doing anything besides keeping my eyes open). Coupled with feeling a surge of rebellion and no freedom to act, I could see this causing a pullback. There are small incidents that happen where that lack of trust is an elephant. Yesterday or the day before, she was telling me about how she was discussing a work issue with a girl who is associated with OM (they work together and were here at the same time). We were both acutely aware of that underlying awkwardness. At some point, I think the A will have to be discussed and everything in the open.

[SteveLW]

40,

I just exchanged postsin Jlh's thread on this phenomenon where LBSs get too anxious when DBing starts to work, and then being pursuing and pressuring and see the WAS run the other way.

So yes, go back to DBing, removing all pressure and pursuit. At the same time, this may have been a temporary "moment". If you have read my sitch, my W had one last rebellion against R and the MR in mid-February. It happens as the WAS is juggling emotions and on their own emotional roller-coaster. It took a lot for the WAS to drop the bomb on BD, and it is just as hard to come back from those proclamations. Once we as humans say something, it is difficult for us to go back on it. Especially when it is as big as ending a marriage.

I sort of feel as though I'm building a house of cards and any bump in the road might cause it all to come crashing down again. Is that normal? And if so, will it go away? My biggest fear is being stuck this way forever.

Yes this is normal, especially during limbo when your DBing is making gains. Until you get more solid ground underfoot, you are unsure. It feels like BD2 is impending. Even initially into piecing and R it feels like the ground is still moving beneath you.

But yes it will go away. Either you will move on to full piecing and R with a W who is now fully committed back to the MR. Or you will be moving towards D. DBing is about preparing for both eventualities. Limbo always feels unsteady and unsure. But it is necessary in the process. Let the process work.

But yes, even when she starts to warm and move back towards the MR keep DBing. Read the distance-pursuit dynamic thread again. She will pull when you push, and push when you pull. Always be pushing!

[SteveLW]

Sorry, should have been addressed to 44, not 40!

[sandi2]

Okay, might be setback time. Two nights ago I woke up at 4am and W was gone from the bed. I found her asleep in the spare bedroom. In the morning, she claimed she couldn't sleep all night and was having an anxiety attack (had to be at some intense training drills early in the morning). She has been saying she has had horrible sleep since moving back to the bed and yesterday mentioned she might need to go back to sleeping separately. Obviously, I wasn't happy, and she wasn't up for discussing it. She told me she didn't want to have the same conversation we have had on repeat for months (R talk). She asked if I thought everything was just magically better and then expressed that she is feeling suffocated again and doesn't think it will ever change. Since she didn't want to talk, I just listened and let it drop.

I see your W as being a major controller and game player. If she feels she is conforming too much, and she sees happier interactions from you.......she pulls back. It's her way of regaining power and to show you that the MR is not that easily fixed. I think it's her way of holding it over your head. It's important that she doesn't get the desired response. I suggest you not react, show no emotion, and most of all.....don't have a R talk. I suspect she just wanted to remind you that she's still in charge.

She asked if I thought everything was just magically better and then expressed that she is feeling suffocated again and doesn't think it will ever change. Since she didn't want to talk, I just listened and let it drop.

Good way to handle it, 44! Don't offer suggestions, show any emotional response, try to fix her, or argue with her feelings.

She did sleep in the bed last night and commented that I wasn't on my phone before we went to sleep.

Notice this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^, b/c she is talking in female code. She is telling you something that's very important to her. When it's time to snuggle down and go to sleep......she wants it to be just the two of you in bed. I remember you not appreciating her looking at her phone during dinner, so you have to set the example. I have to say I would not appreciate my H looking at his phone while we were in bed. It could be seen a little offensive, and IMHO, it's a killer for potential intimacy.

I have let some affectionate behavior reappear like touching her back or giving a hug. However, this was in response to her becoming more affectionate herself!

As long as she is treating you respectfully, then I see nothing wrong with this ^^^.

The part I could use advice on is, if things turn positive again, what should I do differently? Not reciprocate when she gets closer/warmer?

IMHO, the biggest problem for you is the NGS. When you feel overwhelmed, discouraged, defeated, etc.........you default to what feels comfortable for you, which is your NGS. I hope you'll read that book on NGS again. I think you've come a good way, but you get tired easily, b/c you feel as though you can't relax and be yourself. Having that book (that I can't mention) as your manual, might help you from falling back into old behavior patterns.

Last thought...I sort of feel as though I'm building a house of cards and any bump in the road might cause it all to come crashing down again. Is that normal? And if so, will it go away? My biggest fear is being stuck this way forever.

(((hugs))) That would make anyone a nervous wreck. You know what you want in a MR, and you told your W when you confronted her. As long as you feel respected and she's not playing her silly games or tests, then can't you relax a little and enjoy the moment? If she suddenly goes into her game playing........call her out and tell her you aren't playing her games. Detach and go about your business. When she straightens up, then resume to however things are now. You don't need to have a R discussion. In fact, I discourage it, b/c she is going to test you and she needs to see you calling her out and refusing to go along with it. Having a discussion just gives her fuel. BTW, I think you have done a fantastic job of not having those type of talks. I have the same nature, and want to fix things by talking, so I can appreciate how difficult it must be for you.

I think she likes what she is seeing in you. That's not to say she won't try her old stuff, but I really think she likes the new you.

[44tries]

Thank you Steve and Sandi, you are both so incredibly helpful. More than you know. It helps to know that limbo cannot last forever. I think part of the reason it makes me so uneasy is because it is sort of possible for it to go on indefinitely IF you have NGS. Essentially the year before BD for me was a little bit of limbo underneath it all. But that is because I buried all my needs in the relationship and gave her all the power because I was afraid to rock the boat. Now that I'm kicking all that NGS stuff to the curb, it's going to have to go one way or the other.

The positive progress I was enjoying before seems to have hit a plateau. Up until my birthday camping trip I felt she was consistently moving closer, but now her warmth has dimmed. I'm trying not to be overly concerned (still focusing on detachment). Sandi, I think your suggestion to reread NMMNG is spot on. Now is the perfect time to re-up on all those guiding principles.

I hope you are right and she is liking what she sees. I think she does, but there is still that big gap between not cheating/wanting a divorce to actually being in love with me. For some reason, it's so hard for me to imagine how we are going to get over that hump. I know it's the cliche--how to get that passion back once you've been together for years and it's gone. But there is definitely something missing and I guess it's TBD if we can find that something again. I still think my biggest enemy is her stubborn pride and the blaming. Lately, the blaming has been worse and I hope it's not going to be closely followed by all the rest of the old stuff. Any advice on how to handle it when she tries to blame me for...everything? I'm very tired of being blamed for things that are equal responsibility or legitimately nothing to do with me at all. I tell her right then and there that she is blaming me and I will not accept it, but it doesn't seem to help.

The longer time goes on and she seems to have not even a shred of humility, the more turned off I become. I'm struggling with LBS resentment and questioning if I'm going down the right road (how do I get 'once a cheater, always a cheater' out of my head?). The good news is that I think a lot of this is somewhat expected now that I have shifted my perspective and taken myself out of the 'bad guy' position. I can't tell you enough how important that part of this journey has been for me. Just realizing how I made so many excuses for her and shouldered all the blame myself has been so eye opening. I'm excited about how much I've grown individually these past few months and can't wait to push myself further.

[SteveLW]

Remember, the move towards R, if that is where you both are headed, is a process for her too. Just as you have ups and downs, so does she. I saw this with my W. She would cycle between being excited and leaving the MR, to being scared of leaving it. To being excited about our future together, to being sad that she was giving up her dream of a new life. She would be close some days, far away others. Attentive and affectionate one day. Sad and withdrawn the next.

I can't tell you the exact moment her demeanor switched from wrestling with staying and going and deciding that staying was what she wanted. It was a lot of little baby steps along the way. Steps that in an of themselves didn't mean much, but as time went on and they mounted up, began to show a direction. And a lot of it had to do with me. Was I pressuring and pursuing? Or being the lighthouse! Was I thinking about how my changes were affecting her, or was I just implementing them to be the best I could be? Was I mulling over in my head whether she'd stay or go, or was I at peace internally with whatever she ultimately would decide?

As the former in those morphed into the latter, so to did her re-commitment to the MR. As she saw me in MC owning my part in the problems of MR, without taking the responsibility off of her for the choices she had made that had us there, she started to trust the changes she had been seeing for weeks. The rebelling against the MR became further and farther between, and with shorter duration. She slowed down and eventually stopped reminding me that doing MC, spending time together, and even physical affection didn't mean she had decided to stay.

You mention "Lately, the blaming has been worse". My W did that too. I am not sure if this textbook DBing or not but I would remind her, when she'd say something like "yeah you always complained about the floors not being swept!", I'd say, "Yeah I used to be that way, but I am not anymore." She couldn't argue. That is the beauty of 180s. You can take ownership of your past bad behavior, and then point out that you aren't like that anymore. If it is true at a minimum then they can't say anything to the contrary. Many times my W would follow with "that is true, you haven't done that in a long time".

Reread the validation thread again too, 44. Listen to her blaming. Validate her feelings. Do not disagree or agree with what she is saying. Disagreeing leads to conflict. Agreeing leads to her thinking her rewritten history is the truth. My method was a combination of all three! I would validate her feelings on it. "Yeah, I used to be that way but I know it made you feel bad. But I am not like that anymore." See what I did? I admitted the past behavior. Validated her feelings. And had the opportunity to point out that I had stopped the behavior (which then caused her to take note of the fact "Hey, yeah, he hasn't complained about the floors in a long time!".

Okay, this got lengthy. The point 44 is that you are an exciting phase. There are many signs that your W is moving in the right direction. Just keep controlling yourself to keep the 180s, continue to GAL, and remain healthily and lovingly detached. She will cycle through ups and downs. It is kind of like the stock market. It doesn't matter what the stock did yesterday, or today, or what it will do tomorrow. The overall trend is the key! So try not to look at her behavior myopically focused on now....step back and look at whether the trend over time is in the right or wrong direction.

[SteveLW]

44, any update?

[44tries]

Hey guys, sorry for the delay in updating. Things are are still improving slowly, but surely. I think we got over the stall that occurred a couple weeks ago and I can see progress happening again. W's behavior toward me is still much better and I haven't seen any major relapses. Occasionally, we may get into a squabble and I can see flashes of that old, stubborn, disrespect. But, I think she has really made it a priority to change and genuinely grow, which is very positive. Both of use are in a place where we have high motivation for self-improvement and right now we are working together as a team and lifting each other up more than we have in a long time.

I am having patience with the limbo period. I'm not in any rush and I know there's a long way to go before I can really say we are out of the woods. My biggest concern is her lack of vulnerability. Like I said, I am hopeful as she is obviously willing to do work and make positive changes, and I know she is aware of this issue in herself. However, it's such an ingrained trait and that stubborn pride is a powerful enemy. I think IC is going to be very important and I am going to advocate for it in the near future.

We still haven't had any real R talks, discussion of the A, etc. I don't really know when is the right time. But I have a feeling she isn't going to be the one to bring it up and it makes me slightly uneasy. Is that normal and to be expected? If I am the one to do it, I want there to be a clear purpose.

On a physical front, things are still very slow. Aside from cuddling in bed/on the couch and the occasional short kiss, she doesn't seem to be too interested in much. That's fine...unless it lasts forever. Any thoughts on what I should expect in this department and how to handle it? I may have been remained silent about being in a sexless marriage before, but I'm not going to settle for it anymore. Taking all those NMMNG lessons to heart.

Will update again soon.

[uk82]

You’ve come a long way - back from the brink. The physical stuff will surely take time given where you’ve been. Have patience and build back the trust and this will fall into place I would imagine.