Affair, no feelings...is there hope? V

[LoneWlf]

I hate feeling like I'm back in the position without any power, which is setting off alarm bells for me.

44- Power is not what you should be seeking but you are in a position of power- The power to control what YOU do.

[44tries]

44- Power is not what you should be seeking but you are in a position of power- The power to control what YOU do.

You know, LoneWlf, this brings up a great point. I am not in the position I was in before because I have gained power in objectivity and growth. I know my real power is in what I can control and that is up to me.

[SteveLW]

Firstly, yes it does sound like she is softening to the idea of R. This is exactly how my W started moving back towards the MR. There will be no grand gesture. (Look up the story of Naaman the leper for an allegory about expecting some grand gesture!) It will be a slow, organic process. She will rebel against it a time or two as well so be prepared for that. WWs don't know what they want long-term, only what they are thinking/feeling at that exact moment.

Take it slow. You have made a lot of progress thus far.Lots of LBSs would trade places with you in a second! Let things play out for a while. There will always be time for the deeper MR/R discussions to come. Just concentrate on your GAL, 180s, and detachment. (As I told another poster, look up self-differentiation in a relationship. Detachment isn't just for DBing, it is the healthiest way to be in a MR.

Once you are more sure of R, and she is all in and committed, then I would suggest making MC a condition. She will need to also agree to complete transparency (to rebuild trust). Date nights should be weekly at a minimum to being to reconnect. Look up touch and talk charges (sounds like you are already doing these to a degree, but being more consistent is the key).

Remember, too much pursuit and pressure can still send her running the other way. But be careful that you don't let opportunities slip away. Let her come to you. Let her initiate the R talks. At the same time don't let her skate on the work she needs to do. Letting things go back to the way things were is NOT the direction you want to take or you will end up right back here at some point.

Keep posting and keep us informed.

[MoveFrwd]

She then corrects herself and says it could be our house. I don't know how to take this. I don't remember the exact words or order of the conversation, but at one point her response to me saying none of this makes any sense if we aren't together was "no matter what happens, you won't be on your own, so stop stressing." She then continued on, describing our future house and cars and the camping trips we would take with the dogs. She was deliberately using words like "us" and "ours" even after I corrected her that I would not be involved if we are separating. After the third time she told me to "stop stressing",

It's a little strange to me that she is the only one that gets to make decisions like this. It sounds like you are putting the decision of whether or not to separate completely in her court. I think thats why you feel so powerless. You say you know you can only control you, but it sounds like you are giving that power to her....

On a side note, I get the idea that she might be open to working on the MR if I proposed something specific. So if you guys do think I should force an R talk and demand she verbally recommit right now, I think it would be most effective if I had a plan of action that was more tangible than just "working on our MR". Will have to think more on this.

I think that plan starts with seeing a professional to navigate through a confusing time. I ouldnt take that on as your responsibility to identify and plan.

[sandi2]

I definitely understand what you're saying. I guess what I meant about other ways is that I don't really feel like I need to literally read all her messages or have full access to her phone like she's on probation.

Well, that's your decision.

Ideally, in my mind, I wouldn't need to monitor her every message like a teenager and she would be understanding and transparent on her side, offering me enough information and openness (as in, have sensitivity over how I must feel after what she's done) that I feel safe, which I would.

I don't think you understand how transparency works. I'm not going to talk about it any more with you (if I don't forget I've told you this). You know she won't agree to it, and so you make excuses of why you don't need it. Just realize that if she is not working toward building a trustworthy relationship with you, then I seriously doubt she is going to be open in the ways you want/need.

You mentioned how she won't discuss her past. I am wondering if some of her behavior stems from her FOO.

My only problem is knowing when to drop that hammer, when she's had enough time...I think you discuss the progress topic further down but right now I have the mindset that I can have patience while things are moving in a positive direction but if it plateaus or backslides, I'm out.

What do you mean "drop the hammer"? When she's had enough time for what?

I talk about a WW having a processing period, to work through her issues. However, you need to understand that is when the WW makes the decision to do the right thing toward saving her M. It starts with her ending all contact with OM. She may not have a change in her feelings right away, but she can change how she acts.

She now openly admits to having feelings (opposed to before) and the situation has changed ("progressed"?). The problem is she is still stubborn and has a wayward mindset and she isn't going to recommit, at least not truly, until that changes. Like you say, even if the A is over, doesn't change anything in regard to mindset. The "progress" is hopeful (I think), but again, how long should I have patience? I know that is up to me, but I am wary of checking myself and making sure I stay objective.

I think you have this idea that you're suppose to allow her a certain amount of time to shape up. To cut to the chase, you should not tolerate any wayward behavior from her. She can control her actions, words, and attitude she uses with you. Therefore, you should not give her a period of time before she decides to start treating you right. She has always been capable of being good to you, she just chose to treat you badly. She did it in such a way that you questioned yourself about the gravity of her actions. You made excuses for her, etc. Even if there are issues linked to her FOO, the woman knows she is treating you like cr@p! So, don't let her get away with it. There should be consequences for anyone who treats you disrespectfully, don't you agree?

The processing period, you mention, is suppose to be for her to work through her personal issues (like resentment, unforgiveness, disrespect, etc). Ideally, the two of you would seek professional MC, and perhaps she would need IC. However, it doesn't work if she won't cooperate. If she won't at least admit to herself how sh'tty she has treated you, and decide to get the tools to have a really good MR.......then I don't think she'll make the changes.

She probably needs professional help, but you can't make someone do it. The thing here in your sitch, is that you don't know if she has decided to do the right thing, or not. So, you don't know if she is trying to work on her issues. All you can do is observe her actions, attitude,. and words. You can't help what she thinks or feels.......but you shouldn't tolerate her bad behavior. There is no period to allow bad behavior. You don't take her verbal abuse. You don't put up with her abusive attitude. And, you don't take any mistreatment. That means she doesn't get to boss you around, dictate what you'll do or won't do, play mind games and test you, or any of her bullying methods. There is no period that she gets to act out, before you drop the hammer. Get that out of your head! She has to currently treat you in a respectful manner, whether she is wayward or a saint. Do you get what I'm saying?

If you feel progress has been made, that's good. If she's sleeping in the bed with you, then maybe that's a good step. Having a R talk right now is probably not a good idea. Calling her out for testing you, bullying, and other bad behavior should be done every time she does it. It doesn't mean you have to go into a R discussion.

Are you saying there can be no change from wayward status before full recommitment?

I suppose she could change anytime she wanted. However, if she's not committed to saving the MR, then what would be her motivation to change? If she gets the same things for treating you badly, as she would for treating you respectfully......what would cause her to change?

(Sorry if I have skipped around all over the place. I've got to get use to this new look to our forum).

[44tries]

Firstly, yes it does sound like she is softening to the idea of R. This is exactly how my W started moving back towards the MR. There will be no grand gesture. (Look up the story of Naaman the leper for an allegory about expecting some grand gesture!) It will be a slow, organic process. She will rebel against it a time or two as well so be prepared for that. WWs don't know what they want long-term, only what they are thinking/feeling at that exact moment.

Take it slow. You have made a lot of progress thus far.Lots of LBSs would trade places with you in a second! Let things play out for a while. There will always be time for the deeper MR/R discussions to come. Just concentrate on your GAL, 180s, and detachment. (As I told another poster, look up self-differentiation in a relationship. Detachment isn't just for DBing, it is the healthiest way to be in a MR.

Once you are more sure of R, and she is all in and committed, then I would suggest making MC a condition. She will need to also agree to complete transparency (to rebuild trust). Date nights should be weekly at a minimum to being to reconnect. Look up touch and talk charges (sounds like you are already doing these to a degree, but being more consistent is the key).

Remember, too much pursuit and pressure can still send her running the other way. But be careful that you don't let opportunities slip away. Let her come to you. Let her initiate the R talks. At the same time don't let her skate on the work she needs to do. Letting things go back to the way things were is NOT the direction you want to take or you will end up right back here at some point.

Keep posting and keep us informed.

Thanks Steve, it helps to know this "progression" is pretty normal. My main concern is getting to that long term goal of secure commitment. I don't want to keep taking baby steps toward "not divorcing", but find myself back in the same place a year from now, just like you said. Right now I am enjoying the changes in her respect level and we are getting along great. But I am going to be pretty interested to see the road ahead and make sure we keep moving forward in the right direction.

[44tries]

It's a little strange to me that she is the only one that gets to make decisions like this. It sounds like you are putting the decision of whether or not to separate completely in her court. I think thats why you feel so powerless. You say you know you can only control you, but it sounds like you are giving that power to her....

I agree completely. And I don't want to give all that power to her, but I got stuck in the position of "divorce isn't what I want but I respect your choice" and now she holds that decision of whether or not to separate. Of course, I have my half of the control in that I can always choose to walk, but unless I go that route I'm not sure how I can avoid being at the mercy of her own decision in that regard.

I think that plan starts with seeing a professional to navigate through a confusing time. I ouldnt take that on as your responsibility to identify and plan.

This is good advice. I will just make sure to tread carefully and know that if we get to that stage, it will be important to make a plan together that includes counseling and definitive action steps. I agree I am probably getting ahead of myself trying to worry about much of that right this second and without her fully on board with me.

[44tries]

I don't think you understand how transparency works. I'm not going to talk about it any more with you (if I don't forget I've told you this). You know she won't agree to it, and so you make excuses of why you don't need it. Just realize that if she is not working toward building a trustworthy relationship with you, then I seriously doubt she is going to be open in the ways you want/need.

This point is a very important one. And you are right, a lot of it is probably me making excuses rather than setting the hard lines I need to. These are exactly the kinds of things I need to be reminded of because it is how I'm going to end up in a situation where I am not getting what I want/need AGAIN. Nope, not going to do it. Time to keep chipping away at those default NGS habits.

You mentioned how she won't discuss her past. I am wondering if some of her behavior stems from her FOO.

What is FOO?

What do you mean "drop the hammer"? When she's had enough time for what?

I talk about a WW having a processing period, to work through her issues. However, you need to understand that is when the WW makes the decision to do the right thing toward saving her M. It starts with her ending all contact with OM. She may not have a change in her feelings right away, but she can change how she acts.

Okay, I totally understand what you are saying here and I agree with all of it. Do you think that I should initiate a discussion and ask if she has ended all contact/demand proof? (still seems that way as of now). Now that I am not hyper worried about everything being in immediate crisis mode, I am running into navigating how to make the tranistion from "the brink" to getting all of my needs clarified and met.

I think you have this idea that you're suppose to allow her a certain amount of time to shape up. To cut to the chase, you should not tolerate any wayward behavior from her. She can control her actions, words, and attitude she uses with you. Therefore, you should not give her a period of time before she decides to start treating you right. She has always been capable of being good to you, she just chose to treat you badly. She did it in such a way that you questioned yourself about the gravity of her actions. You made excuses for her, etc. Even if there are issues linked to her FOO, the woman knows she is treating you like cr@p! So, don't let her get away with it. There should be consequences for anyone who treats you disrespectfully, don't you agree?

Bingo. Again, so much of what I need to hear. To be clear (and hopefully this is a big positive), the biggest thing that has changed IS her behavior and respect level. She may not come forward and initiate recommitment talks or verbally discuss much at all, but her behavioral changes are huge. She is choosing to treat me well and doing it consistently. If she says anything that remotely sounds rude or snappy, she catches herself and apologizes and tries to explain what she is feeling, etc. And she knows that if she does cross the line, I'm not letting her get away with it. I can only think of one instance in the past week where she slipped to bad behavior and let her tone/words get out of control and I immeditately walked away. You know what? Instant remedy; she corrected herself real quick.

The processing period, you mention, is suppose to be for her to work through her personal issues (like resentment, unforgiveness, disrespect, etc). Ideally, the two of you would seek professional MC, and perhaps she would need IC. However, it doesn't work if she won't cooperate. If she won't at least admit to herself how sh'tty she has treated you, and decide to get the tools to have a really good MR.......then I don't think she'll make the changes.

I understand. I think that's mostly what I mean when I refer to the "processing". Her disrespectful behavior was the immediate concern and that has been what I have been addressing and seen the most difference in. In my mind (and I could be wrong), I view her resentment and unforgiveness, etc that you mention she needs processing time to work through, as the pieces that need to change for her to be truly recommitted feelings wise. I understand she can still make the right choice before that, but sometimes I feel like what you mean by that is mostly just ending the affair (which is certainly a huge and necessary piece, and one that I am pretty confident is mostly in place at this point). She told me she ended it and I can either choose to believe her or demand proof, which brings me back to my above question on your opinion. I know it is my choice, but I am just asking what you would do in my shoes since I value your thoughts highly and you have given a lot of input on this particular topic.

She probably needs professional help, but you can't make someone do it. The thing here in your sitch, is that you don't know if she has decided to do the right thing, or not. So, you don't know if she is trying to work on her issues. All you can do is observe her actions, attitude,. and words. You can't help what she thinks or feels.......but you shouldn't tolerate her bad behavior. There is no period to allow bad behavior. You don't take her verbal abuse. You don't put up with her abusive attitude. And, you don't take any mistreatment. That means she doesn't get to boss you around, dictate what you'll do or won't do, play mind games and test you, or any of her bullying methods. There is no period that she gets to act out, before you drop the hammer. Get that out of your head! She has to currently treat you in a respectful manner, whether she is wayward or a saint. Do you get what I'm saying?

Yes! and I will not give her any period of allowance. I never intended to; all my work since day one has been about putting my foot down on that and I wasn't confused or thinking I could go back to letting that slide. Maybe I wasn't very clear with my wording, but I hope I didn't give the impression that I was giving her a period of allowing bad behavior. The period I am talking about is the period where we are "working" on the relationship before she verbally comes out and says she wants to stay with married to me, forever. I love that she is treating me right and is affectionate and acting like my wife again, but I do not love being unsure where we really stand or her telling me to "not stress", etc. I also do not want to go back to a sexless marriage, that is a clear problem and the biggest sign that nothing will be sustainable (at least, to me). I will not put up with all of this indefinitely. But I understand there has to be limbo and that's okay, I just don't know what to expect. So that's where my uncertainty lies; how to state these needs without being too much, too fast.

If you feel progress has been made, that's good. If she's sleeping in the bed with you, then maybe that's a good step. Having a R talk right now is probably not a good idea. Calling her out for testing you, bullying, and other bad behavior should be done every time she does it. It doesn't mean you have to go into a R discussion.

This is exactly where I am. I figure it is not advisable to push for any of these needs as far as sure commitment to the long term or physical stuff, etc. But I can call her out for bullying/tests and keep moving things in the right direction that way without R discussion. I just don't want to do this indefinitely; I went a long time putting up with her lukewarm stance to our MR and lack of physical touch etc and I don't want to repeat that and be back in the same place. So I'm hoping to get some help with this and I know the board will hit me with 2x4s when it IS time to make those demands.

I am also really trying to keep my guard up and not get emotionally invested in any of this new positivity, but it is a hard balance. I want to be reciprocal of her warmth when she reaches out or be excited about future plans, but I constantly feel like I am setting myself up to be hurt all over again if I start getting hopeful about any of it.

I suppose she could change anytime she wanted. However, if she's not committed to saving the MR, then what would be her motivation to change? If she gets the same things for treating you badly, as she would for treating you respectfully......what would cause her to change?

This is another thing I keep coming back to, and something I was especially worried about a short while ago. I suppose the way it is supposed to work is that as she gains respect and starts treating me differently (already happening), then naturally she will feel motivation to want our MR and change it for the better (right?). She is at the point where she is not shy about discussing future plans and including me, has ended all separation at home, and is even showing me affection in public. So I guess her motivation is that if she wants any of this to last, she needs to maintain her newfound respect and more importantly get both feet back in the door.

[sandi2]

FOO = Family of origin

Do you think that I should initiate a discussion and ask if she has ended all contact/demand proof? (still seems that way as of now). Now that I am not hyper worried about everything being in immediate crisis mode, I am running into navigating how to make the tranistion from "the brink" to getting all of my needs clarified and met.

Here are a couple of things to consider. If you feel things have steadily improved since the day at the theme park, and you have seen nothing to indicate she is secretly texting, then to ask for proof at this point could possibly send her back to the other bedroom. This improved behavior may be all smoke and mirrors, but I based on her previous MO, I rather doubt it...….if she has sincerely changed as much as you try to make us believe. In other words, if you feel OM is out of the picture, than don't have a conversation. If you see her reverting back to sneaky behavior, then ask to see her messages, that she's not texting some other guy (not just the 19 yr old, but any guy). If you find her repeating old sneaky habits, don't ask her if the EA is over, and don't refer to the 19 yr old. If she's texting a new guy, it would be too easy for her to deflect from it by telling you the EA with 19 yr old was over.

Many people these days believe it is fine to have close friendships with the opposite sex. When it excludes the spouse, I think it becomes very threatening to the MR. If she doesn't have any female friends, and if all her friends are her co-workers (and most are men), it could be an easy trap for her. I would think the military offers counseling to couples. Whether or not she'd listen to a counselor, or even be willing to cooperate......is anyone's guess.

To be clear (and hopefully this is a big positive), the biggest thing that has changed IS her behavior and respect level. She may not come forward and initiate recommitment talks or verbally discuss much at all, but her behavioral changes are huge. She is choosing to treat me well and doing it consistently. If she says anything that remotely sounds rude or snappy, she catches herself and apologizes and tries to explain what she is feeling, etc. And she knows that if she does cross the line, I'm not letting her get away with it.

Good!

In my mind (and I could be wrong), I view her resentment and unforgiveness, etc that you mention she needs processing time to work through, as the pieces that need to change for her to be truly recommitted feelings wise. I understand she can still make the right choice before that, but sometimes I feel like what you mean by that is mostly just ending the affair (which is certainly a huge and necessary piece, and one that I am pretty confident is mostly in place at this point). She told me she ended it and I can either choose to believe her or demand proof, which brings me back to my above question on your opinion. I know it is my choice, but I am just asking what you would do in my shoes since I value your thoughts highly and you have given a lot of input on this particular topic.

As long as you see no previous behavior that indicates she is hiding something, and as long as she continues to show respectful behavior......then I would not bring up the subject of the A, at this time. One reason is b/c you let it slide that day in the theme park and all this time has past since then...….so unless you see her acting sneaky again, or you have doubts about it......then why bring it up now, when she's returned to sleeping in your bed, etc.? That's not to say there won't be another incident and you'll need to address it then, but we are talking about right now. On the other hand, you may be a person who needs to know she is committed to the MR before you have sex with her. That's your decision. I just doubt she's going to voluntarily tell you she's committed, due to her stubbornness.

I think commitment is what you really want from her. You'd like to hear those words from her, so you could relax and the two of you could live happily ever after. I don't think she'll say those words. Unless she received some excellent counseling and she was able to understand your needs, and the importance of her willingness, I don't think she'll say it. I think she'll just ease back into life with you, similar to how she eased back into sleeping in your bed. Yes, of course, she used the excuse of your parents visiting...….and she just continued after they left. No explanation, no conversation, and no commitment. Isn't that usually how she operates in most things, or am I wrong? If I were her, I'd probably see it as being easier than discussing it and dragging up the old stuff again. It common for the WW to want to put everything behind them and just pick up with up and start from "here" in their M. Plus, she's probably not ready for you to corner her about a commitment. This way is a smoother transfer back into the MBR, for her. Now, as to how genuine her feelings are...….I simply don't know. You have to decide if you are okay at this point....and if you can take a day at a time. If you are, and you see things progressing...….then go with it. If things start falling back, then you can discuss what to do.

Maybe I wasn't very clear with my wording, but I hope I didn't give the impression that I was giving her a period of allowing bad behavior. The period I am talking about is the period where we are "working" on the relationship before she verbally comes out and says she wants to stay with married to me, forever.

Sometimes it sounded a little like you were thinking she was suppose to have a period of bad behavior, so that's why I wanted to make sure we were on the same page. As I said, I think IC for her and MC for both of you, would do wonders for your MR. Without her getting IC, I think her stubbornness will be the destructive force in this relationship. I googled the word, stubbornness, and found......"dogged determination not to change one's attitude or position on something. Reading the synonyms sounded like reading waywardness. So, stubbornness is very intertwined in the wayward mindset. If she has been this stubborn most of her life, it would take a lot of motivation to change, IMHO. It can be done...….if she wants it. But things like telling you she is committed and wants the MR forever, etc. goes against her what I call "stubborn pride". My stubborn pride held me back a long time. It's terrible and it prevents true remorse & humbleness. I don't think I was anything comparable to your W, but I was older and may have had many more years of resentment stored, than she does.....IDK. Neither do I know what emotional baggage she may have brought into the MR that plays a part in her stubbornness. Again, this is where IC might be able to help her.

I suppose the way it is supposed to work is that as she gains respect and starts treating me differently (already happening), then naturally she will feel motivation to want our MR and change it for the better (right?).

Well, it's usually a little more complexed. I think she has to feel respect for you, in order to restore her sexual attraction. But let me point out something very important. Without her feeling remorse for her bad behavior and willing to cooperate in doing what is necessary to have a good MR...…..I think her ill treatment toward you will rear its ugly head frequently, b/c she's got to tear down those walls of selfishness and stubbornness. It's difficult for me to try to divide all of this into levels or steps. It all blends and works together.

The WW ends her affair, and then goes through affair withdrawals. The H requires respectful behavior from her, and in time, her feelings of disrespect begin to diminish and adoration begins to build..….which leads to sexual desire for her H. This usually softens her attitude and overall interactions with him, causing her to be more affectionate, and even feminine (especially if there is male dominance in their relationship). The extreme short cut version would be to say that she falls in love with her H, and that causes her to be motivated to work on the MR. However, I think this period of time varies with each case, and every WW has her own issues that must be resolved. That's not to say she can't work on them while the relationship progresses. See what I mean? It's like surgery, in some cases, and it takes time to cut away the cancer. Sometimes, treatment is required, and it takes time to completely heal. It's just not an overnight process.

I realize you are uncomfortable. All of this is tiring to you. Your NGS is screaming for you to settle back into your old accommodating patterns. Just understand something. If/When you do...….all her acts of disrespect returns with it. IDK how long you can give her time to work through her issues. There is no way to place a calendar date on things of this nature. IDK if she even realizes she has issues that need to be resolved. I really think IC could help her to identify some things in herself and how to work on them, and how to work with her spouse. In other words, she needs outside help. Depending on her level of waywardness (which stubbornness will be the main enemy) as to her willingness to seek help. Most couples do not enter into a relationship knowing one thing about how to make it work. Oh, they think they know, and most think that their MR will be different, yada, yada...…..but they are unprepared to deal with the day to day stuff that erodes the pipes to their loving feelings toward each other, and it starts breaking down. Becoming informed and getting the tools, is vital. Getting professional help to heal the issues that exist is smart, IMHO.

I apologize if I sound as if I'm rambling. I've had a lot of distraction since starting this post.

[44tries]

Here are a couple of things to consider. If you feel things have steadily improved since the day at the theme park, and you have seen nothing to indicate she is secretly texting, then to ask for proof at this point could possibly send her back to the other bedroom. This improved behavior may be all smoke and mirrors, but I based on her previous MO, I rather doubt it...….if she has sincerely changed as much as you try to make us believe. In other words, if you feel OM is out of the picture, than don't have a conversation. If you see her reverting back to sneaky behavior, then ask to see her messages, that she's not texting some other guy (not just the 19 yr old, but any guy). If you find her repeating old sneaky habits, don't ask her if the EA is over, and don't refer to the 19 yr old. If she's texting a new guy, it would be too easy for her to deflect from it by telling you the EA with 19 yr old was over.

Okay this really helps reassure me I am thinking along the right lines. I'm very confident she is not texting other guys since that trip. Of course, without proof, no one can say 100%, but I'm comfortable trusting this assumption for now. And I know what to look for and how to respond if it recurs.

Many people these days believe it is fine to have close friendships with the opposite sex. When it excludes the spouse, I think it becomes very threatening to the MR. If she doesn't have any female friends, and if all her friends are her co-workers (and most are men), it could be an easy trap for her. I would think the military offers counseling to couples. Whether or not she'd listen to a counselor, or even be willing to cooperate......is anyone's guess.

I understand completely. Especially since she is in the military, she is surrounded by a lot of men as females are the minority. Fortunately, she is not the flirty type and for the most part I am not too uneasy, but it's certainly an easy trap as you said. They do offer counseling, I'll have to look into more about the details, and obviously get her on board. I think I can get her there, actually. Not sure how long it will take, but I see it as achievable.

As long as you see no previous behavior that indicates she is hiding something, and as long as she continues to show respectful behavior......then I would not bring up the subject of the A, at this time. One reason is b/c you let it slide that day in the theme park and all this time has past since then...….so unless you see her acting sneaky again, or you have doubts about it......then why bring it up now, when she's returned to sleeping in your bed, etc.? That's not to say there won't be another incident and you'll need to address it then, but we are talking about right now. On the other hand, you may be a person who needs to know she is committed to the MR before you have sex with her. That's your decision. I just doubt she's going to voluntarily tell you she's committed, due to her stubbornness.

This is incredibly helpful, thank you. On the sex issue, that's such a huge part of the problem that I don't think those things (commitment and sex) are separate for me. Her wanting to have sex with me is something I am concerned about and am okay being patient with, but I don't want to end up trapped in a sexless situation.

I think commitment is what you really want from her. You'd like to hear those words from her, so you could relax and the two of you could live happily ever after. I don't think she'll say those words. Unless she received some excellent counseling and she was able to understand your needs, and the importance of her willingness, I don't think she'll say it. I think she'll just ease back into life with you, similar to how she eased back into sleeping in your bed. Yes, of course, she used the excuse of your parents visiting...….and she just continued after they left. No explanation, no conversation, and no commitment. Isn't that usually how she operates in most things, or am I wrong? If I were her, I'd probably see it as being easier than discussing it and dragging up the old stuff again. It common for the WW to want to put everything behind them and just pick up with up and start from "here" in their M. Plus, she's probably not ready for you to corner her about a commitment. This way is a smoother transfer back into the MBR, for her. Now, as to how genuine her feelings are...….I simply don't know. You have to decide if you are okay at this point....and if you can take a day at a time. If you are, and you see things progressing...….then go with it. If things start falling back, then you can discuss what to do.

Again, so so helpful. You are right--I do want commitment. If we are going to be married and she wants to buy a house, etc, I don't think it's normal to not feel a need for commitment. But that is something I question, because I wonder if my expectations are off. But it is extremely helpful to hear you say that it is actually normal for her to want to just ease back into life with me. You are right on the money about her using excuses and being non-open about it--yes, that is precisely how she usually operates. As long as it isn't a huge red flag, I'm okay with that. I don't need the grand gesture and I can take things a day at a time. My only concern is, this feels the same way it did a year ago when she initiated a mini-crisis and then it blew over without a word. I don't want to be in a cycle where she is never truly happy or satisfied and stays wayward, etc.

Sometimes it sounded a little like you were thinking she was suppose to have a period of bad behavior, so that's why I wanted to make sure we were on the same page. As I said, I think IC for her and MC for both of you, would do wonders for your MR. Without her getting IC, I think her stubbornness will be the destructive force in this relationship. I googled the word, stubbornness, and found......"dogged determination not to change one's attitude or position on something. Reading the synonyms sounded like reading waywardness. So, stubbornness is very intertwined in the wayward mindset. If she has been this stubborn most of her life, it would take a lot of motivation to change, IMHO. It can be done...….if she wants it. But things like telling you she is committed and wants the MR forever, etc. goes against her what I call "stubborn pride". My stubborn pride held me back a long time. It's terrible and it prevents true remorse & humbleness. I don't think I was anything comparable to your W, but I was older and may have had many more years of resentment stored, than she does.....IDK. Neither do I know what emotional baggage she may have brought into the MR that plays a part in her stubbornness. Again, this is where IC might be able to help her.

YES. You get it. It is honestly a major root of the problem. I hope I can get her to do IC.

Well, it's usually a little more complexed. I think she has to feel respect for you, in order to restore her sexual attraction. But let me point out something very important. Without her feeling remorse for her bad behavior and willing to cooperate in doing what is necessary to have a good MR...…..I think her ill treatment toward you will rear its ugly head frequently, b/c she's got to tear down those walls of selfishness and stubbornness. It's difficult for me to try to divide all of this into levels or steps. It all blends and works together.

The WW ends her affair, and then goes through affair withdrawals. The H requires respectful behavior from her, and in time, her feelings of disrespect begin to diminish and adoration begins to build..….which leads to sexual desire for her H. This usually softens her attitude and overall interactions with him, causing her to be more affectionate, and even feminine (especially if there is male dominance in their relationship). The extreme short cut version would be to say that she falls in love with her H, and that causes her to be motivated to work on the MR. However, I think this period of time varies with each case, and every WW has her own issues that must be resolved. That's not to say she can't work on them while the relationship progresses. See what I mean? It's like surgery, in some cases, and it takes time to cut away the cancer. Sometimes, treatment is required, and it takes time to completely heal. It's just not an overnight process.

This is a great illustration that helps me understand.

I realize you are uncomfortable. All of this is tiring to you. Your NGS is screaming for you to settle back into your old accommodating patterns. Just understand something. If/When you do...….all her acts of disrespect returns with it. IDK how long you can give her time to work through her issues. There is no way to place a calendar date on things of this nature. IDK if she even realizes she has issues that need to be resolved. I really think IC could help her to identify some things in herself and how to work on them, and how to work with her spouse. In other words, she needs outside help. Depending on her level of waywardness (which stubbornness will be the main enemy) as to her willingness to seek help. Most couples do not enter into a relationship knowing one thing about how to make it work. Oh, they think they know, and most think that their MR will be different, yada, yada...…..but they are unprepared to deal with the day to day stuff that erodes the pipes to their loving feelings toward each other, and it starts breaking down. Becoming informed and getting the tools, is vital. Getting professional help to heal the issues that exist is smart, IMHO.

Just what I needed to hear and be reminded of. A major pillar of positivity is that she is expressing a lot of motivation to better herself and her life. I believe she does realize she has issues she needs to work on and she has the desire to do so--and in a lot of ways has already begun.


Things are still moving in a positive direction. But I can see how her behavior with rear its head. I am running into a problem where she has started saying I am constantly assuming she is doing/saying something with bad intentions. I don't know if there is actually a problem with the way I am communicating and not tolerating disrespect, or if she is just pushing back to not having her way without resistance.

We took a last minute camping trip to celebrate my birthday. It was a blast and bucket list type trip. The only time we had any issues was when she felt I was overly critical. I am reflecting on my attitude and words and refocusing on myself and making sure I'm the spouse only a fool would leave. I think if I stick to the core principles I have been following since the beginning, things will keep progressing positiviely. Like Sandi mentioned, the biggest battle will be not settling back into old patterns and making sure the new ways stick.