Affair, no feelings...is there hope? V

[sandi2]

Continued from my previous long winded post..........

If she isn't comfortable with me directly reading her messages, we can find other ways to have transparency that satisfy both of us. The real issue is her dropping the defensive stance and understanding why extra steps are necessary at this time to restore trust (again, restoring trust is not a priority for her like it would be with recommitment). She can't seem to concede the fact that it is natural for me to need more transparency than I normally would before the A. It's the whole resistance to being in that weaker role of truly admitting she did something very wrong and needs to be fully remorseful, etc

Look 44, she understands a lot more than you give her credit. The whole defensive attitude comes from her guilt. You have always been submissive to whatever she wanted, however she wanted it. She thinks if she holds out long enough, you'll eventually give up. I'll have to say it kind of sounds like you want to back peddle on some things. You sound like a man who doesn't know how to enforce his boundaries......so you want to stop "pushing & labeling", and just go with the flow (which is code for a nice-guy wanting to return to his comfortable old ways). Nothing in the sitch has changed.

Especially because she is stubborn and I think there are a lot of steps for her to go before she is near making anything "official", if that makes sense. I find myself at odds with the whole DB philosophy of non-pursuit Especially because she is stubborn and I think there are a lot of steps for her to go before she is near making anything "official", if that makes sense. I find myself at odds with the whole DB philosophy of non-pursuit when I think about how to demand more so that she isn't cake eating.

Oh well, if she's stubborn then that makes for all exceptions in the world! No, it doesn't. Look up stubbornness in the King James Old Testament and you'll see it in the same scripture as witchcraft. You'll see where God doesn't like it. That places some perspective on her stubbornness. Besides, all waywards have stubbornness, 44. Look, don't you think I recognize some of the language in these quotes above? I've seen it so many times, where the LBH starts saying how he is at odds with the DB philosophy. More times than not, it's all excuses b/c he doesn't feel that he has what it takes to implement tough love.

IDK what type of "steps" she needs to go through before committing to doing the right thing in the MR (I suppose that's what you mean by "official").

If her A is out of the picture, I don't see a reason to be too pushy about recommitment or labels.

44, she is sneaking around texting some guy. It may not be the same 19 yr old boy, but it is some guy. Women don't hide to text another woman. She has offered nothing for you to arrive to the conclusion her A is over. You can't see her texts, so to save face you decide her A is out of the picture.

Pushy, recommitment, and labels...............what it sounds like you are really saying is that you don't want to rock the boat.

Again, if the A is out, is it cake-eating to do "couple" things before I have total recommitment? Or is there a stage where she is in the turnaround process and I shouldn't be shutting everything down?

.

Does this all boil down to you not wanting, or not being able, to say "no" to couple things? What is it, that is keeping you held back? Ever since you've come back fom the vacation, you've sounded differently........like you were trying to find an excuse to leave things like they were. Well, that's up to you.......but to answer your question, and to repeat myself.......your sitch has not changed. She has done absolutely nothing to show she wanted to cooperate. If things between her and OM ended, I think it happened while she was on job trip. She is hiding and texting someone, and if it was not another guy.....and if she had really broken off the A......she would have gone through.......and probably still experiencing some withdrawals, and I think she would have given you some kind of evidence of when they last texted. With all of that said, an affair, alone, does not define her waywardness. It is what is in her heart. And, may I ask what on earth have you "shut down"? As far as I can tell, things just kept beeping along, like there had never been a confrontation.

and if we ever do get to recommitment this will be something I draw a hard line about, but right now I do not believe there is an active relationship between them.

I thought you drew a hard line when you had the big talk. ^^^^^^This seems so turned around to my thinking. One minute you don't think you should push and talking about having steps........and then you say, "But if ever do get recommitted this will be something I draw a hard line about". What about in the meantime?

Perhaps I can be harsher and the whole thing will speed up, but while I'm moving in the right direction and constantly reminding myself the changes can only happen slowly anyway, I struggle with knowing just how much to push.

What changes are you talking about can only happen slowly?



I'll have to finish this later.

[sandi2]

3rd and last continuing response to your previous post:

The secretive behavior has thankfully stopped, but I am wary because of exactly what you say about the addiction. I'm not letting my guard down.

Oh, so there have been no more of her trying to keep you from seeing who she is texting? She doesn't try to hide it?

One question, is true remorse/repentance going to coincide with recommitment or could those be separate states/events?

Depends on the sitch, but usually, I think she wants to reconcile and do whatever is necessary to save the M.

So my question is, when can I start showing any encouragement to work on the MR. Wait for her to explicitly go there? Or at least cut out all the back and forth securing her position stuff?

When you see authentic, freak'in change in her attitude & behavior. Not some head dreams you try to convince yourself. When she starts showing you respect. When you see her genuinely trying to do the right thing, and trying to reconcile the MR.

I'm assuming it will be an obvious difference,

There will be an obvious difference in what you are currently seeing in her. You will knows she is sincere, b/c she is willing to cooperate. She won't be playing these disrespectful games with you! Her attitude will be humble, warm, appreciative......and even giving. I dare say, she expects you to do all the giving in the relationship, rather than her. If her heart changes, then her unwillingness changes, too.

She is so stubborn about not wanting to seem too positive about anything/me. If she wants me close to her she tries the old "I'm cold" trick. Before my family arrived, she came to the bed a day early and was again making sure she clarified there was some reason she was sleeping there.

It is not stubbornness that makes her this way. It is her waywardness.

There are days she is pretty relaxed about having her guard down. She is definitely warmer, treating me better; more of the good, less of the bad.

Are there ever any days where she treats you all good with zero bad? Do you ever remember having a 24 hour period together, where there were no hints of bad?

[44tries]

I am relieved to hear it. I was very concerned that we were losing you. I was worried that you felt too much pressure and was fading away. I want to teach/show you what I can, but if it becomes too much or pushy......just tell me. As you may can tell, I can get rather.......passionate. (Yeah, that's a good word).

No, no, don't worry, you aren't losing me. If I feel too much pressure I will say so...so far the pressure is good for me and I have been missing all your input while I've been away. My family left last night and when W goes back to work tomorrow morning and my normal routine resumes, I will be very relieved. These past few weeks have been a lot of fun, but also exhausting and nonstop going. I'll be back to posting much more frequently. Now, I will respond to all your thoughts from last week.

Well, a lot of the consequences for the more minor acts of disrespect is just you calling her out on it, and then walking away and leaving her alone. Some other things may require you to tell her.......

"You are very unattractive when you try to bully me".

"i don't desire your company when you act this way, so I will be spending the day/night being with people I do enjoy".

Those quotes are helpful. I think I got confused about "just calling her out" because a few times I thought I was, the feedback I got here was that it was weak to simply call her out without some kind of action. But I can see how saying things like you're unattractive or I don't want to spend time with you are "stronger" than saying you're rude or talking to me that way is unacceptable, etc. It's just sort of a fine line in my mind to know the difference.

Yes, generally. When you are home together and she does something.......like the "testing game", or whatever, call her out on it and immediately get ready to leave the house. No information, just tell her you are going out......and for her not to be bothering you with texts.

Okay, got it.

What do you have in mind, that will satisfy both of you? And let me just explain something about transparency. The spouse that betrayed the trust, doesn't get to choose the form of transparency. The faithful spouse decides what he will need to feel safe in the MR again. It's not like you have a discussion to see what she'll agree to do. If she is still contacting the same OM, or has a new OM (which I suspect is the case), she is not going to want to disclose her private text messages. Without seeing her text messages, what other means would you have to check? Doesn't she do all her communicating over her phone?

I definitely understand what you're saying. I guess what I meant about other ways is that I don't really feel like I need to literally read all her messages or have full access to her phone like she's on probation. Perhaps this too naive, but as I said, I know she would hate it or never allow it anyway. This is part of my frustration, though, because I agree with you completely that she should not have any say in what I need to feel safe and shouldn't have the attitude of thinking she does. It's back to the stubborn thing and her not being completely remorseful. Maybe it's part of her personality (like I said, always been that way) but frankly it's a manifestation of her respect problem/immaturity, and I think it's something that needs to change for this problem to be completely fixed. Ideally, in my mind, I wouldn't need to monitor her every message like a teenager and she would be understanding and transparent on her side, offering me enough information and openness (as in, have sensitivity over how I must feel after what she's done) that I feel safe, which I would. I agree that the only way to "check" in absolute terms would be to read her messages. However, thus far, I have a pretty good idea of everything that goes on without overtly reading because her behavior is fairly obvious. I can tell when she is sneaky and when she isn't, when she is texting or not on her phone at all, etc. Sometimes she will casually announce what she is typing if she is in on her phone in my presence, but it's never a direct discussion.

You say she's always been picky about personal space and privacy. Well, I am too. At least to an extent, but I don't keep secrets from my H. There's the difference. Her "privacy" is really all about her secrets. There should be none of that type of stuff in a MR.

I agree wholeheartedly. That's why it bothers me that there are things she won't discuss (emotionally), things she won't tell me about her past/childhood (mentioned previously), and certainly when she intentionally covers her phone so I can't see it. The first two I can understand to an extent, and realize I am different that way, but her stubbornness about being vulnerable still feels like an obstacle to intimacy. The phone stuff is obviously unacceptable and a dead giveaway to her doing things she shouldn't be doing. Since our trip, this behavior has stopped and she has not done anything sneaky or that she's trying to hide.

When did you explain to her what real transparency would mean? Before or after the theme park day?

During the initial discussion when she returned home, I probably took too much for granted in regards to the need to define it. Frankly, I think we both know full well what real transparency means, but later when she tried to say she was in compliance, I guess she tried to use the definition as if it simply meant she wouldn't be overtly lying to my face (not her words, but my interpretation). At the theme park, I made it clear that hiding her phone and texting in secret were definitely in violation of being transparent. To me, transparency is a whole package--it's an attitude along with the actions. You're either transparent or you're not and it can't really be faked or done halfway. Maybe I'm wrong in my thinking because admittedly I also have a hard time understanding mind games and manipulation etc. I'm a very open book type person.

Here is your problem, as I see it. The big talk ended without her saying yea or nay......so, nothing was really settled. So, what do you do in the meantime? What if she never offers commitment? Honestly, if she wouldn't commit when you had the big talk, I don't think she'll ever do it.....apart from her actually seeing you walking away from the M. To her, relationships are all about who holds the power. To her, submission is weakness. To cooperate with your terms is seen as giving up her control/power, which leaves her in a weak position. That's why she clings to stubbornness.

This is really good insight and to be honest, confirms my fears and what I already suspected. I feel like I'm patiently watching this slow progress toward...not really what I want. If anything, it's more likely toward falling back into the old status quo where maybe we are "back together" but it isn't clearly defined and it's on her terms. This is a MR for Pete's sake...I'm not doing that again. Thankfully, that is a decision that has already been made firmly in my mind and I have no problem walking away if she isn't willing to do it differently. My only problem is knowing when to drop that hammer, when she's had enough time...I think you discuss the progress topic further down but right now I have the mindset that I can have patience while things are moving in a positive direction but if it plateaus or backslides, I'm out.

I suppose you will know when you've had enough......at least, I hope you will. Just don't rationalize away her bad behavior. Some spouses do it, in order to live with their horrible partner......but what a way to live your life!

Totally understand. Not a life want to live. Before all this, I was probably in that category. I would not rationalize away cheating or the like, but I definitely put up with way too much of the disrespect and bad treatment, buying into her BS about not being able to control her mood swings or whatever else. I'm definitely at the point where I have grown and know what I want, and she is either on board and changes too, or it's not going to work.

I think we need to clarify about the "slow process". A wayward can make the decision to "do the right thing" and enter into an agreement/commitment with her H, although her feelings has not changed. This is what I did in my sitch. My loving feelings did not return until after I repented, which took a while.......(seems I had some stubborn issues of my own). Anyway, you are correct that there won't be any overnight changes in her heart/feelings.......not until she repents, anyway. However, if she agreed to do what you needed, she could stop her disrespectful behavior (by her own volition), even if she never felt remorse.

This makes sense. And I think what has always been most striking to me about your story is your decision to recommit before you had any of those feelings. That takes a lot of strength and dedication (I would assume) and I really think you are a rare person to make that choice. For my W, I do not see her taking such a grand stand before feeling anything. Some mind reading to follow: I think she knows the cheating and A were wrong and not something that could rationally continue (this likely due to a complex combination of reasons, only some of them due to her guilt/desire to the right thing). I think my own changes and growth are apparent to her and have had some effect (the typical response you hope for when employing LRT, GAL, etc). She now openly admits to having feelings (opposed to before) and the situation has changed ("progressed"?). The problem is she is still stubborn and has a wayward mindset and she isn't going to recommit, at least not truly, until that changes. Like you say, even if the A is over, doesn't change anything in regard to mindset. The "progress" is hopeful (I think), but again, how long should I have patience? I know that is up to me, but I am wary of checking myself and making sure I stay objective.

What I wonder about is if you are looking at the two of you being in this slow process........as in her changing from a wayward mindset. B/c she has not agreed to "do the right thing". She's made no commitment, no transparency, no change, no offer to cooperate. She won't even offer proof her EA ended. Therefore, i dare say that your WW is not in any type of change or process. She is still in rebellion. (You referred to her stubborness. Part of it is rebellion to submit or even cooperate under the conduct codes of the MR). Do you understand what I mean? She is not in the process of changing from the wayward status. I just want you to clearly understand that this is not like a reconciliation where she is trying to do the right thing to save the M. The two of you simply continued doing what you were already doing.

I see what you are saying and it is helpful. I think you are right that I am looking at it as a change from wayward status. Otherwise, we've gone absolutely nowhere. Well, I personally have gone somewhere, but the relationship, no. Are you saying there can be no change from wayward status before full recommitment? Because as I mentioned above, I don't really see why she would recommit while still wayward. Does that make any sense? Perhaps I am just being foolish. Do you suggest I demand proof of the EA ending? Demand recommitment today or I leave? If I had any notion she was still in any kind of A, I would be gone. If she was not becoming any warmer or gaining feelings or whatever you want to call it, I would be on my way out. If she was not showing me more respect, I would not be thinking there was progress. She is increasingly concerned with my feelings and caring what I think. My voice is no longer unheard and despite her aversion to words, her actions have definitely changed. Yes, they need to change further and verbal commitment is required, but I don't how much to push or demand immediately.

Yes, you are making positive changes, but she never agreed to work on the MR........right? Perhaps I am making too much out of what you said.

I'm going to continue with a new post.

Right, and I fully understand why this is concerning. Trust me, I am concerned. I guess I was thinking of it like she needed to regain feelings and desire to be in the relationship to a certain point before she is going to jump in head first. I mean, I'm certainly not asking everyday "are you ready to work on the MR yet?" I'm just looking at actions and looking for positive signs per the DR plan. I guess I feel like a big part of DB is not applying pressure and that's why I'm hesitant to rush in with demands. I get that I get to be demanding when it comes to transparency and ensuring she isn't still in an A, but as I've said, I'm fairly certain this is not a current issue.

I will respond to your next post in a separate post so I can keep quoting.

[44tries]

Arghhh...I had my first experience losing a long post...and I was about done with it too Maybe this one will be more succinct.

Look 44, she understands a lot more than you give her credit. The whole defensive attitude comes from her guilt. You have always been submissive to whatever she wanted, however she wanted it. She thinks if she holds out long enough, you'll eventually give up. I'll have to say it kind of sounds like you want to back peddle on some things. You sound like a man who doesn't know how to enforce his boundaries......so you want to stop "pushing & labeling", and just go with the flow (which is code for a nice-guy wanting to return to his comfortable old ways). Nothing in the sitch has changed.

I think she understands everything. I don't intend to go back to being submissive or give up (assuming you mean give up on regaining power, not the MR). I will be the first to admit I have issues enforcing boundaries, but I am (hopefully) getting better. That is a major area I have been trying to grow. I have no intention of going back to the old ways. The power I have been able to regain already has made it more than clear to me that there is nothing comfortable about going back (ie having no power). If you are right that nothing at all has changed, I will have to re-evaluate.

Oh well, if she's stubborn then that makes for all exceptions in the world! No, it doesn't. Look up stubbornness in the King James Old Testament and you'll see it in the same scripture as witchcraft. You'll see where God doesn't like it. That places some perspective on her stubbornness. Besides, all waywards have stubbornness, 44. Look, don't you think I recognize some of the language in these quotes above? I've seen it so many times, where the LBH starts saying how he is at odds with the DB philosophy. More times than not, it's all excuses b/c he doesn't feel that he has what it takes to implement tough love.

Some more great insight. To be clear, I was not saying I was okay with her stubbornness. It is one of the biggest enemies! I want it gone. And I understand that drawing hard lines and having no tolerance are my best weapons against it. I definitely see what you're saying about excuses. I do think I have what it takes and can implement tough love (and I am in a lot of ways). The only thing I feel at odds with is strictly about forcing an ultimatum on recommitment. To me, the DB approach is about everyday increasing the chances the WAS/WS recommits. And I honestly feel that is happening in my sitch. So, it's hard to say today is the day I force it. In the beginning, I thought the end is when the WAS/WS comes to you and says they want to recommit. But obviously that might never happen and you have to draw your own line too. So I can see why it just looks like an excuse.

IDK what type of "steps" she needs to go through before committing to doing the right thing in the MR (I suppose that's what you mean by "official").

I just meant the steps in between "I want completely out of this MR/I'm having an A" to "I want to recommit to the MR and do everything possible to make it work". Of course, the right thing to do is stay committed to an MR. But none of us would be here if our spouses wanted to do the right thing. The hope is that they get to the place where they do want to, right? I suppose whatever steps they need to get there are personal and we cannot control them; that's a central pillar to DB. All my efforts to rebuild respect and regain attraction etc have been helpful, so when do I say enough is enough or force the issue? I know that is my question to answer, but that is my dilemma.

44, she is sneaking around texting some guy. It may not be the same 19 yr old boy, but it is some guy. Women don't hide to text another woman. She has offered nothing for you to arrive to the conclusion her A is over. You can't see her texts, so to save face you decide her A is out of the picture.

She is not currently sneaking around texting anyone. I have arrived at the conclusion her A is over because I have not seen her hiding anything for weeks.

Pushy, recommitment, and labels...............what it sounds like you are really saying is that you don't want to rock the boat.

Not totally wrong. I have no problem rocking the boat in day to day interaction. But yes, I am admittedly hesitant to rock the boat when it comes to the ultimatum issue. It's not even that I'm afraid to lose the MR or walk away. I'm just concerned about the timing, doing it too soon. Back to issue of progress or not. But I hear you, if there is in fact no progress and I'm kidding myself, then so be it.

Does this all boil down to you not wanting, or not being able, to say "no" to couple things? What is it, that is keeping you held back? Ever since you've come back fom the vacation, you've sounded differently........like you were trying to find an excuse to leave things like they were. Well, that's up to you.......but to answer your question, and to repeat myself.......your sitch has not changed. She has done absolutely nothing to show she wanted to cooperate. If things between her and OM ended, I think it happened while she was on job trip. She is hiding and texting someone, and if it was not another guy.....and if she had really broken off the A......she would have gone through.......and probably still experiencing some withdrawals, and I think she would have given you some kind of evidence of when they last texted. With all of that said, an affair, alone, does not define her waywardness. It is what is in her heart. And, may I ask what on earth have you "shut down"? As far as I can tell, things just kept beeping along, like there had never been a confrontation.

No, I can and will say no if I should. I don't want things how they were. I do believe her A ended on her job trip (which is consistent with what she said). She probably did go through withdrawals...and did give evidence of having contact with him on our trip...which I confronted and told her she was clearly not transparent and I wouldn't put up with it...and I have seen no sneaking or contact with another man since. Maybe she still has withdrawals (admittedly, I'm hoping from a 5 week texting relationship they won't last TOO long), and I fully understand the waywardness is there with or without an A. The only thing I have shut down is her possessiveness or assumption she has any control who I hang out with and can ask questions etc. I don't shut her down if she tries to snuggle up to me in bed or the like. That's why I was asking if I should. I don't disagree I am frustrated there hasn't been a bigger change since the confrontation (more remorse, etc). But there has been a significant increase in her respect level, which is why I said there is progress. We do not discuss the A, other than her initiated conversation about whether I could trust her again (and I told her what would be required).

I thought you drew a hard line when you had the big talk. ^^^^^^This seems so turned around to my thinking. One minute you don't think you should push and talking about having steps........and then you say, "But if ever do get recommitted this will be something I draw a hard line about". What about in the meantime?

Okay, I understand the confusion. I DID draw a hard line during the big talk. What I mean about after recommitment is more of an enforcement issue. Right now I do not feel like I can demand to see her phone or such if I felt the need. If we were to go back to being committed, I would feel more license to openly ask about contact or demand proof etc if I felt it necessary. Maybe this is turned around thinking. I'm not sure why I feel there is a difference. In the meantime, I am monitoring more from the sidelines. I still feel I can bring it up if there is an issue (which I did at the theme park).

What changes are you talking about can only happen slowly?

Her gaining respect and attraction. Me gaining strength and power back in the relationship. And I feel like all of those things are happening.

[44tries]

Oh, so there have been no more of her trying to keep you from seeing who she is texting? She doesn't try to hide it?

No, not since the theme park, which was the last day of our vacation. She has since not hidden anything about her phone and I have been with her most of the time, including sleeping since she had to give up the guest room for my family. She may or may not remain in the bed but she stayed last night after they left.

So my question is, when can I start showing any encouragement to work on the MR. Wait for her to explicitly go there? Or at least cut out all the back and forth securing her position stuff?

When you see authentic, freak'in change in her attitude & behavior. Not some head dreams you try to convince yourself. When she starts showing you respect. When you see her genuinely trying to do the right thing, and trying to reconcile the MR.

I'm assuming it will be an obvious difference,

There will be an obvious difference in what you are currently seeing in her. You will knows she is sincere, b/c she is willing to cooperate. She won't be playing these disrespectful games with you! Her attitude will be humble, warm, appreciative......and even giving. I dare say, she expects you to do all the giving in the relationship, rather than her. If her heart changes, then her unwillingness changes, too.

She is so stubborn about not wanting to seem too positive about anything/me. If she wants me close to her she tries the old "I'm cold" trick. Before my family arrived, she came to the bed a day early and was again making sure she clarified there was some reason she was sleeping there.

It is not stubbornness that makes her this way. It is her waywardness.

There are days she is pretty relaxed about having her guard down. She is definitely warmer, treating me better; more of the good, less of the bad.

Are there ever any days where she treats you all good with zero bad? Do you ever remember having a 24 hour period together, where there were no hints of bad?

Yes, there are days with all good and zero bad. And increasingly so. A big difference too is that when there is bad, and I have been consistent about not tolerating it, she will come and apologize. She cares about what I think and is willing to be the one to reach out and fix things. Because I'm not going to be the one to do it anymore and she knows it. Maybe she is just no longer sure how far she can push, but her apologies are genuine. She is interested in discussing her feelings and asking about mine and improving the relationship.

So while there are still times of stubbornness or disrespect, there are also times where she is humble and warm. It's a back and forth, but more of the latter as time goes. That's why I was asking if the difference would be instant or permanent. My observation that there is progress could be wrong if this is the case, because there are still times she reverts.

She is definitely more affectionate and started calling me pet names occasionally; her stubbornness about not showing positivity or 'giving me hope" has subsided a lot. But I will not let it fall back into being "together" without explicit discussion and commitment. I feel like we are getting close to where I feel it is time to force the issue. Again, I just don't know how to know when exactly is the time.

[44tries]

So it seems she might be ready to end the bedroom separation...only been a few nights but no indication she is going back to "her" room. On a personal note, I think I gain more objectivity the "closer" she gets. I definitely have some of those typical LBH feelings of being unsure I really want her back and increased resentment about everything. I know that's normal and I'm trying to deal with it appropriately. Recon may or may not ever end up on the table, but I think it's a good thing that I've gotten to the point where I know exactly what I need to even consider it and I'm not going to settle for anything less.

[SteveLW]

So it seems she might be ready to end the bedroom separation...only been a few nights but no indication she is going back to "her" room. On a personal note, I think I gain more objectivity the "closer" she gets. I definitely have some of those typical LBH feelings of being unsure I really want her back and increased resentment about everything. I know that's normal and I'm trying to deal with it appropriately. Recon may or may not ever end up on the table, but I think it's a good thing that I've gotten to the point where I know exactly what I need to even consider it and I'm not going to settle for anything less.

Yep, normal. When my W started showing signs of wanting to R, I suddenly started having a strong desire to just file for D. It was weird. But she definitely could see that I was detaching.

[44tries]

Yep, normal. When my W started showing signs of wanting to R, I suddenly started having a strong desire to just file for D. It was weird. But she definitely could see that I was detaching.

Right. I think overall it's a good thing and means I can consider things more objectively rather than emotionally (which is sooo hard in the beginning, even for a rational-minded person).


My birthday is coming up and W has been asking what I want and talking about another trip. Sandi, I know we discussed the last trip may have been a mistake, would like to hear your thoughts on the trip situation from here on out because traveling is going to be high priority given the time we have remaining in current location.

Today, I'm a bit all over the place. So glad to be back in routine and have time for myself, but it's thinking time I haven't really had for awhile. I don't even know how I should be looking at my situation. I'm trying to get back to the core of LRT, GAL, sandis rules, etc but my approach can't be the same as it was two months ago. I feel like I'm committing constant violations; reality is, now that we are back to sleeping in the same bed, there isn't any separation at all. Everything about my day-to-day life is a detachment minefield. There is no way I'm going to be able to detach from a woman that falls asleep snuggled up to me every night. So what do I do? Initiate an R talk? Run away and stop making plans so I can GAL? I feel like I'm looking at my roadmap thinking I might be heading toward where I wanted to be, but also realizing I totally lost my place and don't know where I am.

My biggest concern is if I don't pull the brakes and withdraw, we might fall back to "normal" (which upon honest assessment seems to be the direction we're going). The difference is I have no interest in the old normal, and I am not my old "normal" self anymore either. So I assume if I'm not complacent, it will be up or out anyway right? I guess I'm back to the question of what is slow progress and am I really seeing any?

Please note when I say old normal I am not referring to the disrespect or bad treatment. I'm not letting that back ever again.

[SteveLW]

44, you remind me a lot of myself in March and April. The answer is, as it always is, that you can only control you.

y biggest concern is if I don't pull the brakes and withdraw, we might fall back to "normal" (which upon honest assessment seems to be the direction we're going).

Notice, this is UP TO YOU, but only from your end. If going back to "normal" is where she wants to go then you will have a decision to make at some point. Your goal is to keep the changes you've made going: GAL, 180s, detachment (even as you reconnect, please look up self differentiation in relationships for what that means) and being the best spouse you can be.

Marriage experts often say that if you want a better MR be a better S. It would be difficult for a S to not respond favorably to positive changes in their S. You cannot control your S but you can control you, so if you want your S to improve, then you make improvements.

I have seen this in my own MR. My W was stressed out last night. Moving is stressful. I have maintained a positive attitude throughout the move, even when she has been stressed and become short. Last night she was short and snappy at times. I just kept responding calmly, cooly, friendly and upbeat. The result was that she would quickly change to being more friendly and calm.

So 44, you are the key. Stay consistent and vigilant in your 180s and changes. Don't let yourself go back to the old normal. Make your new normal permanent. Your W would be a fool not to follow suit.

[44tries]

Marriage experts often say that if you want a better MR be a better S. It would be difficult for a S to not respond favorably to positive changes in their S. You cannot control your S but you can control you, so if you want your S to improve, then you make improvements.

I have seen this in my own MR. My W was stressed out last night. Moving is stressful. I have maintained a positive attitude throughout the move, even when she has been stressed and become short. Last night she was short and snappy at times. I just kept responding calmly, cooly, friendly and upbeat. The result was that she would quickly change to being more friendly and calm.

So 44, you are the key. Stay consistent and vigilant in your 180s and changes. Don't let yourself go back to the old normal. Make your new normal permanent. Your W would be a fool not to follow suit.

Thank you for these words, Steve. I also can definitely see the differences I have caused just by being a better person and S myself. Like you said about your sitch, the more calm and positive I am, the more my W is. Honestly, my W's communication and treatment of me has improved SO much. I assume this is due to a combination of all the work I've done to demand respect, be a better S, be a better person individually, but also probably due in part to changes in the situation and whatever goes on in her own head. But it is important to remember how much effect we can have as only one half of the equation and I intend to stay consistent and vigilant from my side. Hopefully this will be enough to establish a new normal for both of us.



Puzzling/concerning/positive (?) conversation last night. We were in bed talking and she brought up my birthday and the trip. I told her I wasn't sure I wanted to do a trip, it wasn't necessary, and I wasn't totally comfortable spending the money on it given the circumstances. She said she would feel terrible since we didn't go anywhere last year either and money wasn't an issue. I decided to initiate what could be considered an R talk, mainly about the future. I explained that we had no plan for what is going to happen in 6 months. We have the holiday season, immediately followed by an international move, my spring tuition due, her needing to buy a new car since she is selling her local one before we leave, and the assumption that we will begin living in separate households. I told her as kindly as possible that she was crazy if she thinks we can afford all that on her salary, and we are making no attempt so far to save extra in preparation. I explained that I would hopefully be able to get a job soon after returning to the states, but I am not comfortable going into that situation without a proper cushion of funds so that I am not desperate for an immediate solution the moment I step off the plane (obviously I have been considering/trying to solve this privately for awhile). Our money is still all conjoined and with her being the sole breadwinner currently, I find this whole topic frustrating and a bit awkward. But it's something that cannot be ignored because we need time to prepare and splashing out a bunch of money for trips without a thought for the future doesn't make sense to me. Now, I understand we are in a very unique situation that allows us to travel to places we will probably never get back to (and certainly not without MUCH greater expense). We want to make the best of that, but there needs to be a plan.

Anyway, her response was that I could live with her when we move. She goes on to say that depending where she gets assigned, she is considering buying a house. I say well that's all well and good, but why the he11 would you or I want me living in it? (In slightly gentler words). She then corrects herself and says it could be our house. I don't know how to take this. I don't remember the exact words or order of the conversation, but at one point her response to me saying none of this makes any sense if we aren't together was "no matter what happens, you won't be on your own, so stop stressing." She then continued on, describing our future house and cars and the camping trips we would take with the dogs. She was deliberately using words like "us" and "ours" even after I corrected her that I would not be involved if we are separating. After the third time she told me to "stop stressing", I let the conversation end. I know in the past she hated it when I got all worked up needing an immediate plan or solution and wanted to talk it to death. So, I'm trying to have patience and letting things happen naturally. BUT is this a problem? I feel like she is passively aggressively telling me she wants or is thinking about getting back together. I want to tear my hair out.

I'm trying to keep perspective. She has only been voluntarily back in the bed for less than a week. She consistently wants to cuddle and has now added holding hands and talking about our future house. Still nothing sexual or even kissing (I haven't tried), but I don't know if that is a red flag or a patience thing. I have this weird, baseless gut feeling that she is holding back (consciously or subconsciously) on that because there is something about the A she hasn't told me, like she lied about them just kissing, etc. But I could be totally wrong and it's just a slow progression (really need some input on that topic ) or maybe all this is some kind of manipulation that I'm missing. I hate feeling like I'm back in the position without any power, which is setting off alarm bells for me. So really I'm in the same position as my last few posts...should I force a full, open R talk and see where we stand, give it more time as things aren't stagnant, or...? I don't know why I had the notion that if we got to reconciliation, it would be her coming to me with some grand gesture.

On a side note, I get the idea that she might be open to working on the MR if I proposed something specific. So if you guys do think I should force an R talk and demand she verbally recommit right now, I think it would be most effective if I had a plan of action that was more tangible than just "working on our MR". Will have to think more on this.