Wild ride and now trapped in the Bermuda Triangle

[AnotherStander]

Things seemingly turned around that week. She spent some time with us. Joked around. There was lots of eye contact and her body language was overall better. It seemed like things were headed in a good direction.

No, things were not turning around. What you are seeing is the byproduct of your DB'ing and removing the pressure from her. She no longer felt like she had to have her guard up. That is exactly what you want, but you can't read anything into it because it's going to be months or even a year or more before she'll start to see things differently.

She even mentioned putting me on her dental insurance when she goes through open enrollment. To me that meant she wasn't intending to file for divorce immediately and was maybe considering the future.

It doesn't mean anything. Like many of us did, you're trying to hard to read recon into every little thing.

Monday night things took a turn for the worse.

No they didn't, things were the SAME. Your PERCEPTION is that things got worse because you started reading too much into the above.

She's been complaining about me hanging around at drop-off the past 2 weeks (really the only complaint she's had) because the kids want me to read bedtime stories, etc.

I think she is probably right. It too soon post-separation for you to be hanging out at her house (and vice versa). You've got to get settled into a routine of being SEPARATED first, and acclimate the kids to that. Later you can explore relaxing that a bit, but for now I agree with her that you should drop them off and go. Kids are very much "out of sight out of mind". If you drop them off and go then 5 minutes later they'll be happily doing their thing. But if you linger then it is harder on them.

Regarding this:

10 months after they were ripped from their home and they're still suffering through their parents being separated.

I sense a lot of blame there. Be careful with that. If your W were here she would no doubt talk about all the things YOU did that caused the S. There's plenty of blame to go around.

I brought up the elephant in the room being our separation taking a toll on the kids.

Don't. That's R talk, and that's pressure. I also sense some blame assignment there (you blame W for S, so therefore you are passively blaming her for the kids experiencing problems).

After some back and forth discussion and her bringing up lots of things I did including the "you wanted this and wanted to be with someone else" (almost 2 years ago at this point)

Is it your opinion that 2 years is past the statute of limitations for harboring resentment? Because I doubt she sees it that way!

Assuming she didn't leave last June and we maintained a single household, the debt would be all paid off by now and we would have had 4-5 months of savings in the bank.

Lots of blaming here. You are harboring a lot of resentment towards your W, do you think she'll want to come back to an angry, resentful H? Whether you recon or not you have GOT to let it go. My brother divorced 7 or 8 years ago and STILL resents his W. You sound very much like him. He blames his ex for his financial woes, the issues his kids have, etc. etc. Everything is her fault, even now, 8 years later. He is sad, angry and bitter. And worst of all, he is STUCK. Don't do that to yourself.

They're getting dropped off tonight and I'm not even going to get out of the car. She can have her way and deal with them leaving me and see how they behave when it's just her.

So you are hoping your kids will be miserable and cranky and thus you will be punishing your wife by using your kids against her? I have a different approach for you. BE THE BEST FATHER EVER. Forget your W, how can you model the best, strongest, most dignified behavior to your kids? DO THAT INSTEAD. Get out, walk them to the door, give them each a big hug and kiss, tell them that you love them. Then go.

[dmoy]

Steve,

Validation is the biggest and hardest part. I did that a few times in the past week in general discussions. It's hard because she chooses not to talk which means there's no "foot in the door" so to speak as far as opportunities to actually validate and show improved behavior.

A lot of times I'm slow to think about it, but then I later realize "yes, I know how you feel." Getting better/faster at making those connections so I can better connect with her is key.

The one good thing that came of the discussion Monday was that she practically gave me the playbook for what I did wrong.

• I lied about how much I was drinking.
• She wanted to talk about what happened (the affair), I didn't.
• I continued to call all the shots and didn't recognize her feelings.
• I hit (spanked; she portrays as abused) the kids, and yelled at them when frustrated.

The first I have no response for aside from validation. We're both at fault here. I wrongfully assumed she knew that I was having 2 drinks one night when I went to the kitchen and came back with a refilled cup, but I wasn't explicit about saying I had a second drink so I was accused of lying. Continually trying to be open and honest about things, and be accountable to do something when I say I'm going to do it.

The second I recognized later after I read Healing from Infidelity and had since called out and apologized for. Nothing really I can do there at this point until she brings it up.

The third has been an ongoing process the past few months as I've tried to listen and validate things (like D6's medical care/concerns) and finding opportunities where we can work together on things (like involving her in doing the taxes 2 weeks ago).

The last is a non-issue for the most part. Sometimes still get angry/frustrated with the kids but it's a rare occurrence. She likes to wave this one as the reason she had to leave and can't come back, but if there was any validity to it now I wouldn't have custody of my kids to the extent I do. Clearly it's still a big issue in her mind though, at least when digging for negative emotions. I've been great around the kids, especially when she's around. Always room to improve though.

[dmoy]

No, things were not turning around. What you are seeing is the byproduct of your DB'ing and removing the pressure from her. She no longer felt like she had to have her guard up. That is exactly what you want, but you can't read anything into it because it's going to be months or even a year or more before she'll start to see things differently.

It doesn't mean anything. Like many of us did, you're trying to hard to read recon into every little thing.

No they didn't, things were the SAME. Your PERCEPTION is that things got worse because you started reading too much into the above.

I thought that was the whole point. Experiment, test the results. If they don't go the right way, reverse course and try harder. Hindsight is 20/20 and you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. It probably was lack of pressure and I tried to jumpstart things.

I think she is probably right. It too soon post-separation for you to be hanging out at her house (and vice versa). You've got to get settled into a routine of being SEPARATED first, and acclimate the kids to that. Later you can explore relaxing that a bit, but for now I agree with her that you should drop them off and go. Kids are very much "out of sight out of mind". If you drop them off and go then 5 minutes later they'll be happily doing their thing. But if you linger then it is harder on them.

This gets difficult because she wants to co-parent which means spending time together as a family.

I sense a lot of blame there. Be careful with that. If your W were here she would no doubt talk about all the things YOU did that caused the S. There's plenty of blame to go around.

Don't. That's R talk, and that's pressure. I also sense some blame assignment there (you blame W for S, so therefore you are passively blaming her for the kids experiencing problems).

Is it your opinion that 2 years is past the statute of limitations for harboring resentment? Because I doubt she sees it that way!

Lots of blaming here. You are harboring a lot of resentment towards your W, do you think she'll want to come back to an angry, resentful H? Whether you recon or not you have GOT to let it go. My brother divorced 7 or 8 years ago and STILL resents his W. You sound very much like him. He blames his ex for his financial woes, the issues his kids have, etc. etc. Everything is her fault, even now, 8 years later. He is sad, angry and bitter. And worst of all, he is STUCK. Don't do that to yourself.

Yeah. I've accepted blame openly for all I've done wrong. She acts like she's blameless in all of this. I think I'm really just jaded because I thought we had moved on, we renewed our vows, moved back in, went to counseling, made financial plans, etc. Then I go away for work only to come home to an empty house. I later found out she moved my kids out of state, an hour away. To realize the person you thought you loved had been smiling and lying to you face while living one foot out the door is devastating.

I'm not trying to be resentful, I'm trying to be practical. But I've learned, and often need to be reminded, that you can't talk facts with someone who is making emotion-based decisions. I think it's also the reality of trying to get on my feet multiple times and having life pull the rug out from under me.

In January I heard work was having payroll issues. I immediately called her, then she immediately called her uncle (who's recently divorced) for an hour (I was still snooping on phone records at the time). Apparently she used my lack of pay as an excuse to file for child support despite me consistently paying her what we had discussed and promised. Had it not been for my parents bailing me out here and there I'd be homeless and not even able to provide for my kids. That's a huge stress.

Maybe it's my own childhood where I got beat up in school and didn't defend myself because I didn't want detention for getting into a fight, only to get reprimanded by the principal anyway for not defending myself. The whole d@mned if you do d@mned if you don't thing got reinforced by W on multiple occasions. I think I just need to do stuff and embrace the imperfection.

Trying to be more positive overall. W can be very negative and I see that in my kids. She posts a lot on SM and gets positive feedback from "friends" so the cycle continues. Hopefully if I turn the kids behavior around it will reflect on me and maybe even get her to change her own attitude for the better. I recently just deleted all SM profiles and have been getting out more / ignoring the news.

So you are hoping your kids will be miserable and cranky and thus you will be punishing your wife by using your kids against her? I have a different approach for you. BE THE BEST FATHER EVER. Forget your W, how can you model the best, strongest, most dignified behavior to your kids? DO THAT INSTEAD. Get out, walk them to the door, give them each a big hug and kiss, tell them that you love them. Then go.

Thank you for the reminder. My response immediately above captured what you said before I even processed what you wrote.

[AnotherStander]

Validation is the biggest and hardest part. I did that a few times in the past week in general discussions. It's hard because she chooses not to talk which means there's no "foot in the door" so to speak as far as opportunities to actually validate and show improved behavior.

Yeah that's part of the challenge is now that you have some tools you hardly ever get to use them. That will probably change over time though.

[*]I lied about how much I was drinking.
[*]She wanted to talk about what happened (the affair), I didn't.
[*]I continued to call all the shots and didn't recognize her feelings.
[*]I hit (spanked; she portrays as abused) the kids, and yelled at them when frustrated.

Whenever she offers info like this then do not argue with her about ANY of it no matter how outlandish you think it is. Just thank her for sharing her thoughts and tell her you will use this info to work on becoming a better person.

I thought that was the whole point. Experiment, test the results. If they don't go the right way, reverse course and try harder. Hindsight is 20/20 and you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. It probably was lack of pressure and I tried to jumpstart things.

Yeah a lot of people read the book and misunderstand, they think that if they throw every trick at their W including the kitchen sink then surely SOMETHING will bring them back and end this quickly. But that's not how it works. REAL CHANGE + TIME = CHANGES SHE CAN BELIEVE IN. Nothing in DB'ing happens quickly. If you think you're seeing a turnaround it's usually a misinterpretation of a softening of her position. If you pull back and remove all pressure then she will relax, communicate more, maybe temperature check. That doesn't mean anything has changed, it just means you're going the right direction. Like Michele says, this is all about baby steps. There are rarely any big moves.

This gets difficult because she wants to co-parent which means spending time together as a family.

And that's fine, but the two of you have to agree on what that means. She clearly does not want you hanging out at her place and doesn't consider that part of co-parenting, so you need to honor that request. By the way, it is completely within your rights to make the same request of her when she drops the kids off to you (if she's not doing it already).

[dmoy]

Yeah that's part of the challenge is now that you have some tools you hardly ever get to use them. That will probably change over time though.

Found a marriage app called Lasting and it's had some useful sessions, even if I do them by myself. There are daily reminders about talking to your partner and how to listen. I applied one the other week when she said something and I asked her for more info so I could try and put myself in her shoes.

Whenever she offers info like this then do not argue with her about ANY of it no matter how outlandish you think it is. Just thank her for sharing her thoughts and tell her you will use this info to work on becoming a better person.

Yup. What I've been trying to do. Not 100% perfect, but getting there.

Yeah a lot of people read the book and misunderstand, they think that if they throw every trick at their W including the kitchen sink then surely SOMETHING will bring them back and end this quickly. But that's not how it works. REAL CHANGE + TIME = CHANGES SHE CAN BELIEVE IN. Nothing in DB'ing happens quickly. If you think you're seeing a turnaround it's usually a misinterpretation of a softening of her position. If you pull back and remove all pressure then she will relax, communicate more, maybe temperature check. That doesn't mean anything has changed, it just means you're going the right direction. Like Michele says, this is all about baby steps. There are rarely any big moves.

Well it was weird. We've had positive stuff on and off. After the last argument in March where I subsequently apologized for not managing my feelings better and then had a heart to heart with her the next day, she immediately changed her own behavior and it had been positive and getting much better for 5 weeks. I obviously jumped the gun, but what was I supposed to think? Patience. Getting there.

And that's fine, but the two of you have to agree on what that means. She clearly does not want you hanging out at her place and doesn't consider that part of co-parenting, so you need to honor that request. By the way, it is completely within your rights to make the same request of her when she drops the kids off to you (if she's not doing it already).

Honestly in reading her text the other night the issue wasn't that I came in and hung out, but that she felt it was because it kept the kids up late. She's generally never had issues with me staying on say a Saturday afternoon when I bring them back. Instead of listening and agreeing I tried to make my feelings trample hers.

[dmoy]

So after a few days of silence I'm starting to doubt. It's hard to tell when she won't share anything.

Last time (~6 weeks ago) when we talked about stuff, she sent me pictures of the kids later. I apologized for letting my feelings get the best of me and then had a long text convo with her the next day trying to better understand what I had done to her. Ended the convo with something along the lines of "I hope I can be worthy of your love again someday." Immediately I saw a change in her behavior.

Since Monday night when I committed the cardinal sin of ending the conversation where she said she doesn't feel the same way about me and she can't change how she feels, with "good night, I love you" she's been very standoff-ish. She's barely texted, even about the kids. She usually shares something about their day, but today I haven't seen or heard from them since church.

It starts to make me doubt the detach/GAL is right in this scenario because she deals with depression. Yesterday when I dropped the kids off she was all mopey around her house. I went in for ~5 min to help carry stuff in and say goodbye to the kids. She acted awkward the entire time I was in her house, and then when it was time for me to leave, I bounced out the door all chipper saying "Have a great evening" with a smile on my face. She put a smile on her face and said goodnight.

She's very good at grinning and bearing it. She did this for years making it seem like things were good. Most of last spring was this behavior from her. Apparently she wasn't happy, but she'd always put a smile on her face when she came home from work and pretend things were ok. What am I supposed to think when you hide your feelings from me?

Another thing that happened this week with D6 and her doctor appointment. I took her Wednesday. She was having a bad day and spent half the car ride crying (unrelated to the doctor appointment but rather because she left some clay there and we were too far gone to turn back and get it.) I was texting WAW about this on our drive home and even sent her a picture of D6 crying (along with some pictures from the dr appt). Turns out she posted all of that on FB and made it out like D6 hated going to all the doctor appointments and that God hates her because she's sick. This was all made up but it got WAW the sympathy she so desires from random people online. I get that some of that is my fault for not listening and validating. She's made this community of 600+ people on FB that she broadcasts this to all for sympathy and attention. It really makes me sad.

I'm at a loss of what to do. Do I reach out or just leave her be? She was really opening up the past month then I shot myself in the foot. Both feet, perhaps.

[dmoy]

W is back to her super-negative behaviors again. Maybe dealing with some depression.

I did text her later last night to inquire about the kids. She was pleasant and joked a little bit. Left it at that.

This morning I maintained my good mod and I joked with the kids as she dropped them off. I came out of the house wearing D6's Elsa ball cap on my head because it matched my sweatshirt. Wished W have a nice day and she didn't say much in return.

Kids came inside and started playing on a couch I got from my parents. They were having a blast sliding down the leather sofa and building forts. I sent some photos to W and her response was "I hope they don't get hurt."

Not really sure if/what I can do other than maintain my own positive attitude. She wants affirmation and support but she's looking for it in all the wrong places so her "friends" stoke the negativity rather than positivity. This is like trying to have a relationship with Eeyore some days. Sigh.

[AnotherStander]

Since Monday night when I committed the cardinal sin of ending the conversation where she said she doesn't feel the same way about me and she can't change how she feels, with "good night, I love you" she's been very standoff-ish. She's barely texted, even about the kids. She usually shares something about their day, but today I haven't seen or heard from them since church.

This is typical WAS behavior. They'll pull you in and then push you out and repeat. Just keep maintaining minimal contact and quit trying to examine every little thing she does to try and find meaning in it.

It starts to make me doubt the detach/GAL is right in this scenario because she deals with depression.

Detaching and GAL'ing is ALWAYS right. You can't fix her, and she doesn't want your help anyway. Focus on you and the kids.

She's very good at grinning and bearing it. She did this for years making it seem like things were good. Most of last spring was this behavior from her. Apparently she wasn't happy, but she'd always put a smile on her face when she came home from work and pretend things were ok. What am I supposed to think when you hide your feelings from me?

Part of the idea of detaching and GAL'ing is so the WAS can start to realize that whatever they are feeling- depression or sadness or whatever, is not because of the LBS. They go into blame mode where they blame the LBS and decide the "fix" is to get rid of the LBS so they can finally find true happiness. The more you try to intervene and make contact and ask them out and talk about the R then the more convinced they are that it really is your fault. But when you remove yourself from the equation and they're still not happy, then they start to confront the REAL cause of their unhappiness (which is usually something within).

Another thing that happened this week with D6 and her doctor appointment. I took her Wednesday. She was having a bad day and spent half the car ride crying (unrelated to the doctor appointment but rather because she left some clay there and we were too far gone to turn back and get it.) I was texting WAW about this on our drive home and even sent her a picture of D6 crying (along with some pictures from the dr appt). Turns out she posted all of that on FB and made it out like D6 hated going to all the doctor appointments and that God hates her because she's sick. This was all made up but it got WAW the sympathy she so desires from random people online.

First, why in the world are you texting your W at all, much less texting her pics of D crying? Second, quit looking at your W's FB page if you want some peace of mind.

I'm at a loss of what to do. Do I reach out or just leave her be?

Have you read DR? Leave her alone. Get out. GAL. Give her time and space. Quit second-guessing DB'ing, it's counter-intuitive because human nature is to pursue, but human nature is WRONG when it comes to a WAS.

[dmoy]

This is typical WAS behavior. They'll pull you in and then push you out and repeat. Just keep maintaining minimal contact and quit trying to examine every little thing she does to try and find meaning in it.

Huh. Must have missed this.

Detaching and GAL'ing is ALWAYS right. You can't fix her, and she doesn't want your help anyway. Focus on you and the kids.

Part of the idea of detaching and GAL'ing is so the WAS can start to realize that whatever they are feeling- depression or sadness or whatever, is not because of the LBS. They go into blame mode where they blame the LBS and decide the "fix" is to get rid of the LBS so they can finally find true happiness. The more you try to intervene and make contact and ask them out and talk about the R then the more convinced they are that it really is your fault. But when you remove yourself from the equation and they're still not happy, then they start to confront the REAL cause of their unhappiness (which is usually something within).

This is a good perspective. Thanks

First, why in the world are you texting your W at all, much less texting her pics of D crying? Second, quit looking at your W's FB page if you want some peace of mind.

Took D to specialist appointment, but I probably could have avoided sending W pic of D crying. It certainly doesn't help and the stress of whatever D has isn't helping. I don't need to keep pouring it on and should just deal with it myself.

Not looking at FB. I deleted all social media the other week. Was something relayed by my father who is the only person in my family she's still connected with.

Have you read DR? Leave her alone. Get out. GAL. Give her time and space. Quit second-guessing DB'ing, it's counter-intuitive because human nature is to pursue, but human nature is WRONG when it comes to a WAS.

Humans are stupid creatures.

[dmoy]

1 more Q just because I need to get the stupid out of my system.

W is running a half marathon this weekend. She's ran it a few times before but skipped last year. The other weekend she was excited when kids and I came to support her in a local 5k.

Thinking I'm ok with a basic "good luck on your run" text or audio message from me/kids but leave it at that? She's grown accustomed to the support and appreciates it. Just thinking totally avoiding saying anything at all would make me seem like a jerk and I'm trying to get out of the passive-aggressive habits of old me.