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Hello, I stumbled across the DB site after trying to figure out how to save my marriage. I've ordered both the DB and the DR books from amazon, but didn't really want to wait to read them to start getting some advice.

Me: 46
Wife: 42
Married: 20 years
Together: 23 years
4 kids

Have just had that feeling that something isn't right. She's been distant and cold. Sex life is dependent on my initiating, lately been feeling like it's a burden to her, so i've stopped. Nothing worse than feeling like having sex with you is a burden to your wife. Just noticing a different vibe from her. Not hostile, but certainly not pleasant.

Have had this feeling once before back a couple years ago. Did some snooping and found out she was texting a married guy from her work. I confronted and she admitted to some flirty texts, but not to an EA or a PA. I think i discovered it before a PA, but told her that i considered it a EA because she did it behind my back and deleted the texts because she didn't want me to see them. Went to MC for a couple months and made some progress. Things got better, even great for a while. I think she finally understood that the concealment was betrayal enough to ruin our marriage.

Lately, like i said, i've been having that feeling again that something was up. So I started snooping again and found an odd phone number with a bunch of texts. Used spokeo and was able to find out it was a cell number from a guy at her work. Now, this is an older guy, that I couldn't see her being into, but i confronted anyway. I asked her whose number it was, and she told me it was her friend "Tammy". I told her i knew whose phone it wasn't Tammy's and she then proceeded to tell me that this guy had loaned phone to Tammy because she was getting ready to file for divorce from her husband and was using the phone to send evidence to the attny since her husband monitored her phone usage. Next day, Tammy called me from that number and filled me in with what was going on with her and her husband. Tammy has since filed for divorce, and my wife has changed the password on cell phone account so i no longer have access to her, mine, or any of the kids phone records.

Tried to have a heart to heart with wife. Talked about many things including sex life. Said she was just in a spot where she didn't desire it. When we did it, she said it was good but just was experiencing low desire. Ok, maybe it's a phase I thought, but soon stumbled across some new lubricant stashed in a drawer that wasn't there earlier in the day. I found a bag with the lube and some used wet wipes. I knew that had to be put there while I was at work as I was in that same drawer in the morning and it wasn't there when i left, but was there when I got back home. I confronted and asked if she was cheating. She said no, I told her about the lube and used wet wipes (we don't have wet wipes in our house). She says she just moved the bag from her car into the house. I asked what she was cleaning up & she admitted to masturbating in the car. But it was a long time ago. She just forgot to get it out of her center console. Problem in the wet wipes were still moist... I'm totally confused and certainly not feeling very trusting at this point. I let it go for a while but just couldn't get the uneasy feeling to go away.

I know she is spending an inordinate amount of time with this friend that's going through a divorce and am worried that there is much man bashing going on. In fact, they recently had a work party that I know is attended by others spouses, but I wasn't invited this year, when she came in very late she admitted to ending up back at the head man-haters house after the party. Very toxic woman who's husband cheated on her and she goes out of her way to bash him every time i've been around her. Pretty confident wife is getting plenty of anti-marriage advice from these "friends".
So, the lack of communication, staying out late with friends, very little interaction other than the day to day operational stuff when running a household, I snapped and made what was probably a fatal decision. I hid a motion activated camera in our bedroom hoping at best to catch a conversation that might better explain our current sitch, or at worst catch her cheating. Two days after setting up the cam, I get a motion alert on my phone while driving home from work, I pull up the live feed and there is my wife laying in bed, masturbating & looking at porn videos on her phone. At the time i was so turned on that I didn't even think to be upset. She finished her business shortly before i pulled in the driveway. I went in and tried to act a bit romantic and she was completely standoffish. Said she was sick and didn't feel well. I said "oh, you don't feel good, huh?" The look on my face must've given me away as she knew something was up and went straight to our room. About an hour later she came out and said she was hungry. Earlier in the day we had planned to go out to dinner with the kids, so I loaded everyone up and away we went. She didn't talk to me all night. Not a word. Later that night I went to our room where she was hiding and asked her what was up. She beat around the bush that nothing was wrong. I again mentioned that I was concerned about our marriage and that she seemed distant and I am just trying to make this work. She couldn't hold back, told me she had found the camera. Was obviously furious, & told me she didn't want to talk. Days past and every time I tried to talk, she said she wasn't ready. Said she didn't know where we go from here. Said that it's obvious that I don't trust her and she doesn't know how to change that. I said how about talking about things. Maybe a little affirmation that things are going to be OK. She said nothing. Asked if we needed to go to marriage counseling, she said "she didn't know"... "Tried that already". So I back off. Spent several uncomfortable days & then she leaves for a planned vacation with 3 of our 4 boys. She's been gone for several days, is due back middle of the week and communication has been sparse at best. Expecting a sit down when she comes back. I know that invading her privacy like that was way out of bounds, and she has a reason to upset with me. That being said, if i had caught her doing something else i doubt i'd feel bad at all. At times I catch myself wondering if she's so upset about my snooping because she knows i'm eventually going to catch her?

So, what advice would you give me? Do i continue to bounce along acting normal, taking her out to eat, etc? Or do I get proactive and start to detach? What would you advise someone that is pre bomb drop?

Sorry if any of my post is off limits. Just felt that hiding details because they might not be "appropriate" would be counterproductive.

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Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.


Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon


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Originally Posted By: Bern19
So, what advice would you give me? Do i continue to bounce along acting normal, taking her out to eat, etc? Or do I get proactive and start to detach? What would you advise someone that is pre bomb drop?


Bern19,

Definitely take the proactive approach. Your wife needs to know with certainty that you're not going to put up with her affair and her bullsh*t. Don't become the wimpy guy that begs her to stay. Let her know that you've got a great life ahead and you're going to live it to the fullest with or without her.

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Wow, there are certainly a lot of red flags there. And I doubt that she has nothing to hide.

A couple of things. First, are you sure that you caught her watching porn and it wasn't another guy on a video chat app, like Facetime? A lot of that going on. Or even a video OM sent her?

Second, I don't trust Tammy. If she is going through a D she likely would help your W out. Could be your W had OM give Tammy his phone to call you. Did you try calling the number from another line to see if he answered? That explanation just doesn't hold any water.

Third, people with nothing to hide don't hide things. The fact that you don't have the PW to your online cell account is a huge red flag.

At a minimum she is in an EA. And there are lots of things here to suggest that she may be in a full blown PA. You said she was spending "a lot of time with a friend going through a D". Hmmmm. How convenient, a friend that is going through a D so would be highly likely to cover for a cheating friend.

Read cadet's links. Pay special attention to sandi's rules. Learn them, and institute them. Especially this one: Trust nothing she says and only half of what he does.

GAL! GAL like a madman. Start getting out with friends and spending time without your WW. (Yes, she seems very wayward at this time.) 180 on behaviors that have gotten you no where, like the snooping. No more snooping. Detach! Read the thread on detachment, and learn it. Detaching in your situation is critical. You have to let her go to get her back. And you have to give her the time and space she needs. Also, become the H only a fool would leave!

You have an opportunity here. This seems like it is early in your wife's waywardness. I am a firm believer, based on my own experience, that if you catch it early and institute DBing methods, then you can bring your current MR to an end, and begin a new one afresh with your W. This is the way you need to look at it, your old MR is dead. To continue on you must forge a new MR.

Good luck and stay active here. You'll get outstanding advice.


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Bern19 Offline OP
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Thanks for the reply's. I just wasn't sure about starting the detachment process since she technically hasn't said that she wants out. Knowing my wife, it could be weeks before she says something. She is a notorious planner. Do I pressure her to talk to see if i can get her to come out and state her intentions? I have no evidence that there is an OM at this point.

As for her video chatting, no it didn't appear to be interactive at all. Lots of scrolling, stopping and starting, volume changes, etc. I've seen enough porn to recognize someone using it.

Did finally get a phone call from her last night. Spent about 30 minutes on the phone just talking about her day, put the kids on speaker for a few minutes. Can't lie, it was good to hear from her & the kids. I did resist the urge to question her lack of communication. It's funny how I think I know what to say and how to act, but when the time comes I have a hard time sticking to the script. Was happy that I did last night.


Me- 47
Her- 43

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Married 21 years

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Read up and know Sandi's rules by memory. You know your W is a notorious planner and so maybe something might be coming. Do not start any relationship talks or what her intentions are. So many red flags. You have enough to go on already.

I would instantly stop all pursuit and GAL. Start organizing your own life and get on a journey of personal growth.


No one is coming to save you!

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Bern19 Offline OP
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Ok, well wife is back from trip with kids.
Busted my but doing projects around the house that have been on the do list for awhile.
Considered not doing any of them while she was gone, but figured thats what she would expect.
Barely mentioned the things I did.
Funny thing is it didnt bother me as much as it would have in the past.
Got a long way to go, and know things will get worse before they get better.

So Im sitting in the living room watching some TV and she is just sitting on the couch.
That isnt really special, but the fact she isnt glued to her phone is.
Just sitting here is a bit uncomfortable, but I dont really want to start a conversation.
Its too late to go do something, so what do I do in these situations?
Do I sit there quietly or so I make small talk?
Do I get up and go to another room?
Just not sure how to proceed.

Gonna have to come up with a project for tomorrow.

Last edited by Cadet; 06/13/18 01:20 PM. Reason: restored post

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You should be out of the house doing something fun and exciting or exercising. Sitting at home watching her not be on her phone is not a good thing dude.

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I'd agree with LH19. She is watching your every move, and will feel like you are crowding her if you watch her. No harm in having conversation - you do need to communicate. It's lack of communication that is the heart of most of our problems I have found. Just keep it light, and then also get yourself busy doing other things that stop you being in front of the TV the whole time.

I am about 8 weeks post BD and I have found that focusing on me, getting out and doing things for me, has really helped me to detach, do LRT and also as a result I'm not so much sitting around watching TV anymore. Originally I couldn't focus/concentrate on it anyway, but now I just don't have the interest.

Getting busy will bring its own benefits as she will notice your changes and it might wake her up. See how it goes, but definitely can't hurt.


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T-21 yrs M-19 Yrs
S17 S15 D12
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BD 04/15/18
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Looks as if you have a serial cheater on your hands. For sure......she is a very wayward wife! This may seem like a lot of reading being thrown at you, but I have some threads devoted strictly to the subject of WW's, their mindset, behavior, etc. Also, what the H should/shouldn't do with a WW.

If you are interested, this is the link to the first one:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

MWD, the author of DB/DR does not use the term wayward wife in her books. She writes about the walk away wife and mid-life crisis. I feel the wayward W is a different breed, so to speak, and requires tougher love. Just wanted to explain this, so as not to confuse you.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Bern19 Offline OP
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Thanks for your input. I realize i need to work on keeping busy, was just looking for some downtime in front of the TV. Wasn't really expecting her to come and sit down. The fact that she wasn't on her phone the entire time got my attention, because that is her "security blanket". Just sitting there silently was uncomfortable to say the least, but didn't want to be the one engaging.

Since I have no evidence of a new EA/PA, and she hasn't come out and said she wants out, I'm struggling with the application of some of the rules. I get the feeling that the bomb drop is inevitable, but knowing my wife, she can sweep under the rug with the best of them, so who knows if/when she'll finally speak up.

In that sense, I guess my sitch is a touch different than most of what i've read. Everyone else had no clue it was coming and were blindsided. What isn't different is that I can feel the resentment and disrespect coming from her. I feel it's only a matter of time. Because she's a planner, and I exposed her behavior, she may not have all her ducks in a row and just isn't ready yet.

Do i suggest MC or encourage her to go seek IC once the subject is brought up? I'm in the process of searching for a counselor for myself right now. I know the rules say don't initiate Relationship talks, but how should i handle it if she brings it up?


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Originally Posted By: Bern19
Lately, like i said, i've been having that feeling again that something was up. So I started snooping again and found an odd phone number with a bunch of texts. Used spokeo and was able to find out it was a cell number from a guy at her work. Now, this is an older guy, that I couldn't see her being into, but i confronted anyway. I asked her whose number it was, and she told me it was her friend "Tammy". I told her i knew whose phone it wasn't Tammy's and she then proceeded to tell me that this guy had loaned phone to Tammy because she was getting ready to file for divorce from her husband and was using the phone to send evidence to the attny since her husband monitored her phone usage.


Trust your gut, there is a reason why everyone has those gut feelings, because they are usually right. If you really want to find out, just ask for the password to the cell account. It is your acct also so there is no reason why you shouldn't have the password. She is not able to change those records so if she is reluctant then that should tell you everything.

Originally Posted By: Bern19
Tried to have a heart to heart with wife. Talked about many things including sex life. Said she was just in a spot where she didn't desire it. When we did it, she said it was good but just was experiencing low desire.


Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but she just doesnt desire sex with you. Most likely the sex you are getting now is good, but for her it is a obligation which is never good.
She is going to try and keep you confused, because that will allow her to keep on doing what she is doing. I wouldn't believe anything she says and only half of what she does. You know she has desire, because you have seen it on camera, if she desired you, then when you got home she would of attacked you and taken you to the bedroom. But exactly the opposite happened, headache/not feeling well .etc.

She is also pobably upset because she wasnt able to put a plan in place to BD you.

You need to ask yourself, if this was a new gf would you put up with this behavior. I know I wouldnt, but that is something you have to decide for yourself. She has already said MC didnt work, so no need for you to bring it up. I would be proactive and BD her. Talk to a lawyer and get prepared, it is coming either from her or preferable from you with preparedness. The reason for the proactive BD is to hopefully scare her out of her current mindset. Problem is you cant look at it like that because if you dont mean it they will know it and it will do you no good. Do you want to put up with this disrespectful behavior?
It is probably safe to say she has already cheated on you. If she hasnt she was definately planning it.

I would start working on yourself. Hit the gym, hangout with friends. Dont invite her to any of it. The more you try to please her the more you will push her away. Do things because you want to do them, not because you think it will make her happy.


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Quote:
Since I have no evidence of a new EA/PA, and she hasn't come out and said she wants out, I'm struggling with the application of some of the rules. I get the feeling that the bomb drop is inevitable, but knowing my wife, she can sweep under the rug with the best of them, so who knows if/when she'll finally speak up.


The 37 rules can be implemented now. You don't have to wait till bomb drop. I will be glad to help, if you'll tell me which rules you aren't sure about. The bomb drop does not usually include any admission of inappropriate behavior of the WW. She will probably tell you she doesn't feel "in love" with you, not happy, and either wants a D or is not sure what to do. Don't offer any advice or tell her you don't want a D or how you want to commit to working on the MR. You will want to.....but don't. Look her dead in the eye and tell her, "I will not agree to an in-house separation. If you want out of the M then you can get your things and leave". Think you can handle it? Don't beg her to stay. Don't agree to sleep anywhere else. Stay in the MBR and the marital home. If it happens in the next few days, don't try to discuss anything at that time. Wait until you can talk it over here. You need to get as much information under your belt as you can. I don't mean information about her & OM.......I mean information here on the board, reading about waywards.

If a LBH would react as if he is dumping the WW, instead of turning into a beggar and pleaser.......he would not have to go through near as much as we usually see around here. By reacting in a calm but determined way, like I have explained, it changes the dynamics. Don't believe her if she tries to soften you by suggesting you sleep on it, or giving her space & time......or any of that stuff. She's told you she doesn't feel in love with you.......so don't let her try and twist things around when she sees you aren't falling on the floor begging her not to leave. She needs to see you standing tall and strong.

Until that time, my suggestion is to start calling her out on any outward disrespectful behavior. If you have not read about setting boundaries, take a look at it. You'll need to enforce personal boundaries.

Stand up to her, don't cow down.

Don't kill yourself trying to score brownie points with her. Know what I mean?

Quote:
Do i suggest MC or encourage her to go seek IC once the subject is brought up? I'm in the process of searching for a counselor for myself right now. I know the rules say don't initiate Relationship talks, but how should i handle it if she brings it up?


I don't think MC would help, unless she is honest and is willing to do whatever is necessary to save the MR. If a WW suggests MC, it is usually with the intent to announce she wants a divorce, and just uses the counselor as a buffer.

As for R talks.......your job is not to initiate the discussion. Try not to get suckered into a R talk by her, but if she talks calmly....just listen. If she starts getting out of control, being verbally disrespectful.......shut it down and walk away or leave the house.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Originally Posted By: sandi2
Look her dead in the eye and tell her, "I will not agree to an in-house separation. If you want out of the M then you can get your things and leave". Think you can handle it?



That is 100 percent pure golden info! I believe if I had done this I'd been where I am now months ago.


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Thanks Sandi,
I will keep practicing that in my mind so Im prepared when the time comes.
Ill work on some questions for you about the specific rules I have questions about.

As for this weekend, thus far, I got home on Friday from work and normally would have sat down and watched tv till dinner, but I knocked out another item on my to do list.
Ill admit Ive been falling behind on getting thinks done, but the last week, Ive been Bob freaking Villa.
I know that Im supposed to be doing these things for me, but with a wife who claims acts of Service as her main love language, its disappointing to see almost no reaction from her about getting some pretty major projects done.
I wasnt expecting a parade, but something wouldve been nice.
I know that im not supposed to be doing these things to impress her, but Ill admit to struggling with that one.

Another one that is getting to me is that she only seems to want to talk to me when she wants something.
Im sure it isnt every time, but she is ok with sitting in the car and not saying a single word to me, but then once we get somewhere she has no problem talking to me about spending money on something.

I dont know, I just feel like Im over analyzing everything and need to work harder on detaching. Im still allowing her too much influence on my attitude.

Tomorrow is Fathers Day, so lets she if she can be nice or if shell remain indifferent.
I think thats the best word for how shes acting towards me currently.

Happy Fathers Day to all the guys out there that are fighting to keep there families together.

Last edited by Cadet; 06/16/18 07:56 PM. Reason: restored post

Me- 47
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S-20
S-18
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Together 23 years
Married 21 years

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Weekend update...

Sunday went well for about 4 hours and for some reason my mood just changed. Kids were acting out and testing my patience & wife was her typical standoffish self. Made it through church OK, but at dinner it just hit me. I didn't act out or cause a scene or anything, and was trying not to pout and act frustrated. But even my oblivious 13 year old could tell as he asked me if i was OK. The ride home was silent (well as silent as could be expected with a car full of boys) once we were home W asked what was wrong, I immediately faked a smile and said "nothing, i'm fine" and went about my day. I went into our bedroom to get out of church clothes and W follows my in, locks the door and initiates. Now, i can count on one hand the number of times she's initiated sex in the last 3 years. I wasn't expecting it, and even though I really wanted to say "no thanks" I caved. We didn't have intercourse, but performed an "oral" inspection on each other.

No relationship talk was had, and we went on about our day. Not sure if I was doing better at the 180 than i thought, or if she was throwing me a bone on fathers day. She's been known to do that before, but never initiates it.

Not reading anything into it other than she wanted it. What prompted her to initiate? I don't really care.

Originally Posted By: sandi2


The 37 rules can be implemented now. You don't have to wait till bomb drop. I will be glad to help, if you'll tell me which rules you aren't sure about.


The ones that I was really struggling with were the ones about having an awakening & getting out. Without the bomb drop, i'm not sure about just taking off without an explanation when GAL. Also, i know i'm going to have issues with putting up a front of "everything is fine". I just know that i'll crack at times and let my emotions show, just like i did yesterday.

I'm working on getting some things set up to help with GAL. Working on getting my bike running to get back to riding with friends. Continuing to do projects around the house is another, but want to make sure that isn't perceived as me just trying to please her.


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You may never found out what prompted her to initiate, but it sounds like you might have been doing something right. So keep doing what works. I'm not sure what other advice to offer you, so good luck.


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ok, well last couple days have been better. Doing better at showing myself as upbeat and positive, actually it might even be contagious. She's been in a better mood the past couple of days too.

I finished a project outside on our back porch and she came out and just sat with me. Not together & no relationship talk. Just small talk. We joked and laughed a little. It was nice.

Still working on the GAL. Got my motorcycle running and just need to get insurance and away I go. Still not sure if I should just up and leave, or should I fill her in on my plans.

She's only gone out once in the last week, and i didn't ask for details, but she filled me in anyway. Went out with her oldest friend (one that i consider a good influence) and was home at a normal time.

I don't know, just trying to make it from day to day. I'm not sure how we get to the point that we actually talk about "us" as see's avoided those conversations for years. She never was one to open up and spill her feelings. That being said, i know i lose if i'm the one to bring it up.


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OK, well that was short lived....

Went out tonight with the family for dinner. Then went to the store to shop. Was having a great time, joking, laughing, etc. until the ride home. Wife mentions having to haggle with the customer service dept about a return because one of the boys had taken the tags off a shirt before trying it on but then it didn't fit. Store agreed to take it back anyways and then she mentions that she returned a pack of socks too. I said "not the black ones?" She said yes. I said that surprises me because I had taken a pair out of the pack. She got all fired up, "Why would you do that? I said I was going to return those!" I asked her why she was so upset. "Did they say anything to you about it?" She said "no, but they could have." "That doesn't even matter, that was just pure laziness! Instead of bending over to get a pair out of the laundry basket, it's was easier to just open the pack I said not too!" First I'm thinking why are you so upset about this, and why are you yelling at me? Then it hit me... She just called me lazy in front of our kids! Unfortunately i didn't handle it well. I didn't get mouthy or continue with the conversation, I just shut up and sat there quietly. I'm not saying I wasn't upset, I was, but I'm sure it showed. That is one i'm going to have to work on. I realized i missed an opportunity to set a boundary and was probably more upset about that missed opportunity.

In my defense, While she was gone on vacation, I spent every night after work busting my butt on a new project at home. I was so busy that I forgot to dry my laundry one night and didn't have any socks to wear to work. That's why I took a pair of socks. So to be accused of being lazy really hurt my feelings.

I'll admit to not doing a very good job of validating her feelings, but it was because I was so focused on the opportunity to set a boundary. I shouldn't have to deal with her being disrespectful towards me in front of the kids. I can't make her respect me, but she should not be influencing my kids to disrespect me.

I tried to explain myself later that night in bed, when she asked what was bothering me, but she still didn't see that she had done anything wrong. I'll admit to not doing a very good job of validating her feelings, but it was because I was so focused on the opportunity to set a boundary. I shouldn't have to deal with her being disrespectful towards me in front of the kids. I can't make her respect me, but she should not be influencing my kids to disrespect me. She just rolled over with her back to me and hasn't spoken to me since.

I know better than to expect an apology from her. She's terrible at it (think the Fonz with blond hair). She's just very bad at admitting to being wrong. That's not something new.

So we'll see how long before she puts this one behind her and starts acting like nothing happened. My guess is it will be once I start acting like nothing happened, just like every other argument we've ever had.

So is that what I do? Just act like nothing happened? Take the fact that I got a chance to set a boundary and be happy with that?

Thoughts?


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Originally Posted By: Bern19

So we'll see how long before she puts this one behind her and starts acting like nothing happened. My guess is it will be once I start acting like nothing happened, just like every other argument we've ever had.


Just my .02 cents but set the boundary and dont let her walk on you. when she tries too, just act cool and state your position and dont get emotional about it. If she wont let you state your position, its ok to just leave the room. If she wants to act irrational thats fine, it doesnt mean you have to stay there and put up with her berating you. Turning your back to someone and leaving has a profound impact on them. Its lets them know you have self respect and wont put up with their crap and will leave if you have to.

Btw if you have relations with your wife during this time, protect yourself and wear protection. It is better to be safe than sorry.


I remember when i first took back my respect when my exwife was yelling at me for something, and i am a very patient man, and when she was done, she then said 'so are you going to say anything' and i calmy replied 'are you done' to which she really went bat crazy so i turned around and left. 20 mins later she came out and apologized for how she was acting.


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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted By: sandi2

The 37 rules can be implemented now. You don't have to wait till bomb drop. I will be glad to help, if you'll tell me which rules you aren't sure about.


The ones that I was really struggling with were the ones about having an awakening & getting out. Without the bomb drop, i'm not sure about just taking off without an explanation when GAL. Also, i know i'm going to have issues with putting up a front of "everything is fine". I just know that i'll crack at times and let my emotions show, just like i did yesterday.


Are you referring to Rule #17?

17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.


What do you mean taking off and not giving an explanation about GAL? Which rule are you talking about?

Quote:
Now, i can count on one hand the number of times she's initiated sex in the last 3 years. I wasn't expecting it, and even though I really wanted to say "no thanks" I caved. We didn't have intercourse, but performed an "oral" inspection on each other.


If the WW feels her H is pulling away, she'll use sex to secure her hold on him. Although it sounds very contradictive to the fact she is not currently interested in having a better MR, it is a form of manipulation. Some WW's are very controlling.

Quote:
Also, i know i'm going to have issues with putting up a front of "everything is fine". I just know that i'll crack at times and let my emotions show, just like i did yesterday.


Here is the point of that rule. A lot of LBS's think if their partner sees how heartbroken or upset the LBS is feeling, it will somehow affect the wayward spouse's feelings of compassion. It doesn't. In fact, it makes WW's treat the H worse. A wayward W is attracted to the person they see as self confident, not succumbing to weak emotions, independent and enjoying life.....and not being co-dependent on their partner. They see the emotional partner as being weak. They wayward W respects strength.

You are not expect to feel no emotions. I am saying to not break down in front of your W & kids! Go to the bathroom and bury your head in a stack of towels to cry, but do it privately. A family is suppose to look up to its leader, that means they expect him to be stronger and capable of handling trying times. If they see their leader falling apart, the kids feel insecure and the W loses more respect for him.

You have four kids watching how their leader will deal with this crisis. It will definitely affect what kind of spouse they will be one day , and what kind of person they M.


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Originally Posted By: sandi2
[quote]

Are you referring to Rule #17?

17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.


What do you mean taking off and not giving an explanation about GAL? Which rule are you talking about?


I guess I got confused here. Turns out I associated another's post as one of your rules..

Originally Posted By: rexgm
[quote]

I would start working on yourself. Hit the gym, hangout with friends. Dont invite her to any of it. The more you try to please her the more you will push her away. Do things because you want to do them, not because you think it will make her happy.


I don't think that just going off without an explanation would do anything but magnify the negatives she already associates with me. I know i need to do some serious 180's, but not sure that one would be productive.


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I'd like to go back to the Father's Day initiation for a second. Because it just struck me that another anti-divorce author (not MWD) talks about a phenomenon when it comes to WAWs/WWs and the LBH detaching.

When you detach properly and they start to feel the loss of control slipping away, they will often resort to sex (and if they are in a full blown PA usually it is oral sex) in order to reestablish some control. She predicted that when the LBH emotionally differentiated that the cheating W would usually go to that.

Wives in limbo (many of whom are in PAs) are unsure of what they want, but they know they want that safety net there. Since intercourse is often saved for the AP, they will resort to oral sex to try to control the H.

Anyway, that just hit me.


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Originally Posted By: rexgm
[quote]

I would start working on yourself. Hit the gym, hangout with friends. Dont invite her to any of it. The more you try to please her the more you will push her away. Do things because you want to do them, not because you think it will make her happy.


Originally Posted By: Bern19

I don't think that just going off without an explanation would do anything but magnify the negatives she already associates with me. I know i need to do some serious 180's, but not sure that one would be productive.


I know it doesn't seem that way, but i am telling you now, chasing, pursuing, trying to talk, ANYTHING that feels REMOTELY like you are begging, trying, pursuing, or trying to ask questions or mind read WILL BE MET WITH COLD HOSTILITY.

You NEED to abide by Rule #17 - It is key. If i had done this from Day One, i MAY still be living with WW.
Chasing and begging, when i should have been HARD CORE implementing Rule #17 is easily one of my biggest mistakes i made in the entire process.

It seems counter productive when you are so RAW and wanting answers, but i am telling you now 150% RexGM and Sandi know what they are talking about here. DONT IGNORE IT.

Go ready my sitch if u want to see where ignoring this advice gets you.


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Originally Posted By: Steve85
I'd like to go back to the Father's Day initiation for a second. Because it just struck me that another anti-divorce author (not MWD) talks about a phenomenon when it comes to WAWs/WWs and the LBH detaching.

When you detach properly and they start to feel the loss of control slipping away, they will often resort to sex (and if they are in a full blown PA usually it is oral sex) in order to reestablish some control. She predicted that when the LBH emotionally differentiated that the cheating W would usually go to that.

Wives in limbo (many of whom are in PAs) are unsure of what they want, but they know they want that safety net there. Since intercourse is often saved for the AP, they will resort to oral sex to try to control the H.

Anyway, that just hit me.


Holy Mackerel Steve, My WW did this, twice. Once with the O Sex, and last year day before my Birthday she did the same thing with full intercourse. It felt like $1,000,000 because she had sex starved me so bad.
It kept me hanging for months longer, as i had been getting suspicious and began asking questions.
This shut me up quite effectively both times.

Cant believe i never saw this. Fits like a damn GLOVE.
*Sorry for Hijack*


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FWIW, I have seen more than one case where the WW in a PA would discover she was pregnant by her OM, and then she would have intercourse with her H. It was her extra coverage, so later when H discovers the pregnancy and he questions the paternity of the child, she could say, "Don't you remember that one time we had intercourse"?


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Originally Posted By: Steve85
I'd like to go back to the Father's Day initiation for a second. Because it just struck me that another anti-divorce author (not MWD) talks about a phenomenon when it comes to WAWs/WWs and the LBH detaching.

When you detach properly and they start to feel the loss of control slipping away, they will often resort to sex (and if they are in a full blown PA usually it is oral sex) in order to reestablish some control. She predicted that when the LBH emotionally differentiated that the cheating W would usually go to that.

Wives in limbo (many of whom are in PAs) are unsure of what they want, but they know they want that safety net there. Since intercourse is often saved for the AP, they will resort to oral sex to try to control the H.

Anyway, that just hit me.


OK, so then that begs the question... Do i decline any future initiations? It doesn't happen often, so it might have been a fathers day present, or could have been an attempt to control. If it happens again any time soon, I think that would answer the question and prove that it's her grasping for control. How do I decline to make sure it makes the right impact/impression? I don't want to come across as mean or spiteful, but would really like something to jar her into the realization that I'm not OK living the rest of my days in this current sitch.

I've only been on this DB/DR journey for 3 weeks and was thriving early on, but lately I'm feeling as lost as ever. Probably because there has been no bomb drop from her and I have no evidence of a OM. I feel that by just keeping my head down and moving forward it allows her to do all the cake eating she wants. By cake eating I'm talking about going out to eat at night a couple nights a week and going to church as a family, etc. Doing all those things that publicly say "we are a normal family". This cake eating could also include a EA/PA, but without proof of that I'm choosing to not go there in my mind. I'm having a hard enough time focusing on the neglect and resentment to worry about that. Without snooping for more info, it's not likely I'll get that answer anytime soon.

The one thing that is really getting me (besides feeling like she's just using me to keep her entertained while her friends have to tend to their families) is how she is asking for permission to spend money on equipment for her "hobby". She works in the education sector, so she has her summers off and has been "asking" to buy high end photo equipment. Recently she has been pursuing this hobby as more of a side venture/business opportunity. It makes me think, is just a step in getting herself set up with income to help replace what she loses if she decides to dispose of me? How do I respond when she "asks" for permission to spend that kind of money? It's not that we can't afford it, but it certainly affects our discretionary income. It's funny, i can always tell when she's going to ask to buy something because she'll act all nice before she asks. How nice she acts is directly related to how much money she wants to spend.

I guess I know that I'm supposed to just ignore her and focus on myself, but at times I feel like pressing her to at least get an "official" bomb drop so she's forced to at least address the elephant in the room. Our currently unsustainable MR.


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Originally Posted By: Bern19
I'm having a hard enough time focusing on the neglect and resentment to worry about that.


That should have read... I'm having a hard enough time working through the neglect and resentment to worry about that.

I'm certainly not trying to focus on anything other than bettering myself right now.


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Originally Posted By: Steve85
I'd like to go back to the Father's Day initiation for a second. Because it just struck me that another anti-divorce author (not MWD) talks about a phenomenon when it comes to WAWs/WWs and the LBH detaching.

When you detach properly and they start to feel the loss of control slipping away, they will often resort to sex (and if they are in a full blown PA usually it is oral sex) in order to reestablish some control. She predicted that when the LBH emotionally differentiated that the cheating W would usually go to that.

Wives in limbo (many of whom are in PAs) are unsure of what they want, but they know they want that safety net there. Since intercourse is often saved for the AP, they will resort to oral sex to try to control the H.

Anyway, that just hit me.


That's crazy to read. I'd love to see the rest.

No way would I be engaging in that if I were you, Bern.


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Originally Posted By: Bern19
OK, so then that begs the question... Do i decline any future initiations? It doesn't happen often, so it might have been a fathers day present, or could have been an attempt to control. If it happens again any time soon, I think that would answer the question and prove that it's her grasping for control. How do I decline to make sure it makes the right impact/impression? I don't want to come across as mean or spiteful, but would really like something to jar her into the realization that I'm not OK living the rest of my days in this current sitch.


How do you decline? Just find another, more interesting activity. Turning down women even when you aren't in your situation is playing with dynamite. They will have a hard time understanding that you are:
-too tired
-already occupied
-have something else to do

"Sorry, but I can't right now". And go right back to what you were doing. Plus, you might pick up an STD if you keep doing this. Have you read my threads? Not that I know for sure, but your health is serious stuff.


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Are you currently in a SSM?


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Oh, without question. Has been for years.


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I know men and women think very differently when it comes to the subject of sex. And when a couple has been in a SSM for years, I could understand a man taking the offer of sex without question. However, when you have already discovered some inappropriate texting between your W and another guy.........and then one day out of the blue she initiates sex with you........do you not have any alarm bells going off? Are you telling me your biggest concern is accepting or rejecting her advances?

First, just to get this out of the way........yes, women have used sex as a means to get something else.....ever since the beginning of time. It doesn't mean every single woman has........but probably, at least once, she had sex with her H for some other reason than just b/c she couldn't keep her hands off him. Sorry, guys.

So, back to your sitch. She has no desire for you. It's dead......there's nothing there. Hasn't been anything in years. So, she gets interested in some other guy. He makes her feel certain things. Then SUDDENLY, whamo! She is initiating sex!

You even wondered if it was a Father's Day gift, b/c you had been so forgotten. cry

If you've been in a SSM for years, due to her having no sex drive........then she suddenly initiates, I suspect it is b/c the OM has jump-started her sex desire. Yes, she used you......or rather, she used your body.

Your gut has been talking to you, and it's on track. Do not get distracted by her sudden interest in sex. It may happen again........or several times (if you are willing). It does not mean she wants to work on the MR. It does not mean she has lost interest in OM. The OM is getting her all hot & bothered, and she's using your body as a means of sexual relief. Which guy do you think is in her head while having sex?

So, how has she acted toward you, since Father's Day?


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Originally Posted By: ovrrnbw
Originally Posted By: Steve85
I'd like to go back to the Father's Day initiation for a second. Because it just struck me that another anti-divorce author (not MWD) talks about a phenomenon when it comes to WAWs/WWs and the LBH detaching.

When you detach properly and they start to feel the loss of control slipping away, they will often resort to sex (and if they are in a full blown PA usually it is oral sex) in order to reestablish some control. She predicted that when the LBH emotionally differentiated that the cheating W would usually go to that.

Wives in limbo (many of whom are in PAs) are unsure of what they want, but they know they want that safety net there. Since intercourse is often saved for the AP, they will resort to oral sex to try to control the H.

Anyway, that just hit me.


That's crazy to read. I'd love to see the rest.

No way would I be engaging in that if I were you, Bern.


Well if there is no PA, then it is ok as long as you attach no expectations of meaning to it. But if there is a PA then avoid it due to disease.


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Originally Posted By: sandi2


Your gut has been talking to you, and it's on track. Do not get distracted by her sudden interest in sex. It may happen again........or several times (if you are willing). It does not mean she wants to work on the MR. It does not mean she has lost interest in OM. The OM is getting her all hot & bothered, and she's using your body as a means of sexual relief. Which guy do you think is in her head while having sex?



Sandi, just to clarify, catching her texting a OM was over 4 years ago. Shortly after we had reconciled and had gotten pretty close. I'm just seeing some of the same "red flags" that I saw back then.

I have no proof or anything that there is a OM. I do know that she had gotten more distant and secretive... (changing password on phone, buying one of those screen protectors that makes it so you can only see the screen when looking straight on, not from an angle). When i brought up the issue of her acting distant, she just said that everything was fine. Well, she wasn't acting that way. Of course (this was pre-DB) I kept pushing over the next couple weeks trying to get her to talk to me, asking her several times to just tell me everything was OK. She never did come out and say it. That's when my suspicion got the better of me and I started checking her phone logs. That's also when i set up the camera in our bedroom hoping to get some insight as to what was going on. Since then, she's changed the password on our phone account so i can't access the phone logs, and she never leaves her phone unattended.

Originally Posted By: sandi2


So, how has she acted toward you, since Father's Day?



Well other than the one day when she got all bent out of shape about the whole return at the store and called me lazy in front of the kids, things have been... um, tolerable would be the word i'd use. She's not initiated again, but has been nice. Not mean or spiteful, but certainly not loving. I've been trying to detach, sometimes I feel like i'm doing it right, others I know i'm not detaching for myself, but wanting her to notice that I am detaching. When that happens it's easy to get resentful and detaching turns into me just being spiteful. Still working on that one.

I have resisted the temptation to try to drag her into talking about the MR. But I did fall off the wagon and did some snooping of her internet usage and found that she's visited her "site of choice" twice since fathers day. No need to initiate when you'd rather be with anyone but me to begin with. Now I know firsthand why your supposed to cut out the snooping. Only person that it hurt was me. I did see she's visited a few marriage counseling sites, but she certainly hasn't put anything she may have seen there into practice.

As for GAL, I was doing great out of the gate, but have not done as well lately. Been spending a lot of time around the house doing odd jobs and such. Need to get out of the house and start meeting some new people.


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Thanks Steve85. I've decided to not initiate myself so as to not pressure her in anyway. I'm still not sure that I shouldn't decline if she were to initiate again, just to get her thinking. I've always been one of those guys that is "ready" at any time, so me turning her down might just make her realize that she's losing a bit of control.


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last few days have been relatively uneventful. She's been nice and is seemingly trying to limit her screen time when i'm around. I think she knows it makes me uncomfortable watching her choose to communicate with anyone that is willing on that device while being able to ignore those that are right there in front of her.

This weekend I knocked out several more projects around the house, two of which were things the wife has been wanting done for a while. Can't remember the last time she actually showed appreciation for something I had done, but I could tell she was impressed. Saturday night when i went to bed, she asked if I had taken a shower. I told her I was too tired and would do it in the morning before church. She said wanted to "thank me" for the all the hard work I had done but she needed a shower too and could I wait till after we both showered in the morning. I told her that she didn't have to do that, it was all stuff that needed done and I wasn't expecting a reward.

Sunday morning came, I showered first, and instead of waiting in the bedroom for her to finish her shower, I got ready quickly and went out to start working on breakfast for the kids. I basically avoided any chance of being alone with her all day. She went to bed first and I waited about 45 mins to go in, she was still awake and on her phone. I just got in bed and layed there. She definitely was expecting me to initiate, I didn't and just fell asleep. I can tell you it felt pretty good to be the one in control for once. Not that i'm playing a game here, but knowing that she can't manipulate me at will, feels pretty good.

Gonna work on GALing full speed this week. I think i might have her attention, so it's time to just keep on track and let her see what she will be missing.


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Hey Bern, how are things going?


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Hi Sandi, sorry i've been absent. Confirmed her PA. Not sure she isn't aware this board. Can't really take that chance. I tried to PM you, but looks like that feature is locked to us newbies. Thanks for checking in...


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Originally Posted by sandi2
Hey Bern, how are things going?




Ok, well guess I have nothing to lose at this point.

So I had been working on my GAL, and detachment without seeing any visible results in her behavior. I knew that it was going to take time, so I didn't let her indifference phase me and just kept trying. Like most LBH's I failed and had more setbacks than I'd like, but finally began to feel a bit more in control of myself. Had a couple IC sessions with a pastor from a local church that deals with marital issues, including infidelity. His methods were to pursue, love, etc. He advised that I buy a book that a Kirk Cameron Movie was based on and "dared" me to love my wife, so I did. On Day #3, I left work early to surprise my wife at home with a gift which was that day's dare. Came home quietly to surprise her and as soon as I got into the house I heard the unmistakable sound of two people having sex in my dining room. Same co-worker that she was texting years ago. Same guy that I've suspected for some time now. I was in shock and just stood there listening (wish I'd not done that now). After they finished, I snapped out of it and just walked out the door. They didn't even know I had been there. Looking back, I wish I'd have just busted in on them just to see her reaction. Because when I confronted her later that night, she was emotionless. I'm pretty sure she actually said. "well, I guess I'm sorry". My head was spinning though, so that could've been me imagining things. When it was clear she wasn't going to talk about it with me, I left and drove to OM's house and confronted him. Told him to leave my wife alone, and if he ever talks to her again that I would tell his wife. By the time I had gotten home, they had already been in touch per my wife. She claims he texted her and said that "I was right, and it was over". I facebook messaged his wife anyway since he ignored my request to leave my wife alone.

So, the OM's wife contacted me the next afternoon. She said she told her husband that she had received an odd facebook message from a stranger (me), so he confessed everything to her. She wanted me to know that he has committed to fixing their marriage and that he won't be talking to my wife anymore.. My wife is devastated that he's dropped her, and blames me for the whole thing. Said it's my fault and that all my accusations pushed her into it. I wish I could say I did all the right things, but like most LBH's I spent the first couple days playing the "pick me" game. I still seem to have issues with sticking to the plan long term, but each stretch gets longer and the "down" time is getting shorter.

She claims that the affair is over, that he won't even make eye contact with her. She is obviously going through withdrawal. We have only talked about things a few times as I know she isn't ready to be honest with me, and I don't want to discuss it until she ready to be truthful. I'm guessing that will happen if she hits bottom and decides that she wants to be with me. Right now she claims it's only been going on for a few months, but putting some pieces of the puzzle together, I believe it's been well over 2 years now. My biggest issue right now is that while he dumped her for his wife, I'm pretty sure had he picked my wife, she'd have gone with him. So the fact that they work together and have access to each other every day, I wonder what happens when he decides that he misses what he had with my wife and they try to strike up a "friendship" again and just make sure they are more discreet than before.

She says she doesn't want to split apart our family, but it's clear she considered our marriage dead and over in order to justify her tryst. She's not sure she can trust me and that I'll just go back to my emotional abandonment and leave her vulnerable again. We went to MC this weekend and it was clear she isn't ready to reconcile. She doesn't feel she's ready to talk about it, and really would rather not even have to. She even said that she just wants to close the book on this chapter of our life an move on. I know that without a major transformation in our MR, it will just be a matter of time before she is back with him or with the next co worker that takes a fancy to her.

In spite of it all, I still do love my wife and don't want to drag my family through a divorce if it can be avoided. But i'm also certain I'm not interested in just sweeping it under the rug and moving forward with my head down. So, I'll get back to GAL and living my life. As I prove that I can be OK independent of her, maybe she'll snap out of it and start to realize what she is going to lose. Honestly, it'd be nice to see any emotion out of her. This indifference is hard to take.


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Bern thanks for posting that, as brutal as it was. I know all of us feel for you in having to have found out the way that you did.

However, I think your tale is a cautionary one for other LBS' that are tempted to confront the OP in their WAS's A. The truth is, as you've found out, is that the AP is not the problem. The R with your W is. Confronting the AP (and I did it in my W's first EA in 2005) is akin to putting a bandaid on the stump of a severed limb. You haven't really dealt with the problem in totality. And now you are constantly looking over your shoulder wondering. Unfortunately, when we "ruin" a WAS's A (like so many of us want to do!) they will blame us for getting in the way of their happiness. Another anti-D expert that I've read and followed, terms it this way. "Do you really want to force your W to stay with you? The way you'd cage a wild animal? Or do you want her to come back of her own volition, wanting to be with you, and wanting to work on the MR?"

Who wants to be with someone that keeps wanting to get away? That is why confronting rarely works.

So Bern, are you doubling down on DB? Detach....GAL.....180s? That may be the only thing that saves your marriage.


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Originally Posted by Steve85


However, I think your tale is a cautionary one for other LBS' that are tempted to confront the OP in their WAS's A. The truth is, as you've found out, is that the AP is not the problem. The R with your W is. Confronting the AP (and I did it in my W's first EA in 2005) is akin to putting a bandaid on the stump of a severed limb. You haven't really dealt with the problem in totality. And now you are constantly looking over your shoulder wondering. Unfortunately, when we "ruin" a WAS's A (like so many of us want to do!) they will blame us for getting in the way of their happiness. Another anti-D expert that I've read and followed, terms it this way. "Do you really want to force your W to stay with you? The way you'd cage a wild animal? Or do you want her to come back of her own volition, wanting to be with you, and wanting to work on the MR?"

Who wants to be with someone that keeps wanting to get away? That is why confronting rarely works.



That's exactly where I am right now. Although I want my marriage to survive, I'm not interested in some hollow arrangement where I'm always going to wonder where she is or who she's with. If she's not able or interested in working to rebuild trust, and then rebuilding our marriage, then I will have to let the MR go.

Originally Posted by Steve85
So Bern, are you doubling down on DB? Detach....GAL.....180s? That may be the only thing that saves your marriage.


yes, trying hard. Failing often.

Issues in the past were being dismissive of her, talking down to her & the kids, not taking care of my self, not helping around the house, etc. Basically a truly bad husband that thought that providing a high standard of living and spending some quality time with them was all it took to be a good dad/husband. I've spent way more time talking about and working on me in my IC sessions.

Detachment- (been my achilles heel so far)
No- "But, I love you"
Not initiating conversations
Not pursuing, begging, pleading.
Trying to give her the gift of my being absent

180's-
Making sure I'm focused on her when she does speak, validating along the way.
Focusing on not just what I say, but how I say it.
Keeping busy at home, helping out with household chores, etc.


GAL-
Spending time away from home with friends
Joined a boxing gym


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Originally Posted by Bern19
She's not sure she can trust me and that I'll just go back to my emotional abandonment and leave her vulnerable again.


Oh wow. Your poor wife, she's sooooo afraid she can't trust you again. The same woman who secretly engaged in a 2 year affair with a married man. Yeah. The things that come out of their mouths are just astounding sometimes. I wouldn't be too sympathetic to her pleas. Just work on detachment and getting out and GAL'ing and leave her to contemplate the mess she is making.

Quote
We went to MC this weekend and it was clear she isn't ready to reconcile. She doesn't feel she's ready to talk about it, and really would rather not even have to. She even said that she just wants to close the book on this chapter of our life an move on. I know that without a major transformation in our MR, it will just be a matter of time before she is back with him or with the next co worker that takes a fancy to her.


Yes you are likely right about that. I would suggest dropping MC for now, it's clearly not having an impact on her and is probably just making things worse.

Quote
In spite of it all, I still do love my wife and don't want to drag my family through a divorce if it can be avoided. But i'm also certain I'm not interested in just sweeping it under the rug and moving forward with my head down.


Good. Because ignoring it is only inviting it to happen again.

Quote
So, I'll get back to GAL and living my life. As I prove that I can be OK independent of her, maybe she'll snap out of it and start to realize what she is going to lose.


Great plan! And if you do it right, at some point you'll quit worrying about her snapping out of it because you'll be too busy being awesome.


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I've been working on my detachment, but had a setback last night. I was keeping busy outside with some yard work and then came in after dark and went to my room to start sorting through my dresser & closet. I've been on this journey of self-improvement for some time, long before I confirmed the WW's PA. So I needed to purge a mess of clothes that no longer fit due to my weight loss. The WW comes in and lays down in bed and just watches me. I asked her if she needed something and she said no. I asked her if she had a headache, and I thought she said no. So, I just kept on working. It was just a very odd vibe that I was getting. I've been pretty good in the past and just ignoring things and moving on with my business, but after a while it started getting to me, so I decided I'd go out to the living room and watch TV. After being out there for 15 or 20 mins, I couldn't get it out of my mind, so I went back in and just asked her. "what was up?" I told her about the weird vibe I was getting and she just looked at me and said she had a headache and just needed to lie down. I guess I was thinking she was wanting to talk, but didn't know how to start. Turns out she just needed to lie down. I felt so stupid. It's crazy how I can project what I want to be happening in a situation like that. Seems like I'll have some momentum and then I can't get out of my own way.


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Bern, no big deal. That was a small indiscretion. So just learn from it and move forward!


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So, I'll get back to GAL and living my life. As I prove that I can be OK independent of her, maybe she'll snap out of it and start to realize what she is going to lose.


So what happened to this whistle


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Hi Bern,

Sorry that you are going through this. A positive step is that you ended up in the right place.

If I may I would like to add my 2 cents worth.

- You mentioned in your first post that you had ordered the books. Have you received them? Did you read them? Do you understand the message they are trying to get across?

- If you have answered yes to the above question why buy more books?

- You mentioned you talked to a pastor about the matter and about infidelity. While I respect all religions and believe help can come from anywhere I seriously doubt that religion and the book you bought will be of use.

- I understand you read the rules? Do you understand them?


The reason for the above questions is that a lot of times I see people come here looking for answers to direct questions and situations but if they do not read and more importantly understand the books then it is all just words. Detaching, validating, GAL, moving on, boundaries, etc are not understood and therefore not correctly applied.

If you haven't, I seriously suggest you read and re-read the books until things make sense and click. I remember I had to take the book and go over points to read between the lines and then like a jigsaw everything began to fall into place. Obviously with help from the forum, a lot of help but consider the forum as a place to discuss battles and reading where you learn to plan a strategy. Battles end up wearing you down.

Reading your situation first point is I would not take the time between A (a) and A (b) as a period of calm. Just like a hurricane that is the eye and those are sometimes recharging periods before the WWS goes at it again. It reminds me when during a marriage after a period of nagging the S shuts up and the other S thinks things are ok when in fact it is the opposite. Here it is the same and your W is long gone.

To be honest I think you are still trying to save your M when one of the first things you should have learned by now is that the M you knew is gone. Furthermore you really don't want that one patched up as a long term investment for the future. You have to start from scratch.

The reason I say this and think it is important is that if you work on yourself for yourself and not looking through the corner of your eye to see if she notices the changes, in which case you are failing the whole point and working for her, you will start to notice her flaws, her disrespect towards you and you will then question if that is really the woman you want to spend the rest of your life with. You will make her earn every ounce of you whereas now you look like a garage sale on offer.

Another point to cut out is snooping.I understand that a lot of errors are textbook and we all do or did them but cut it out. I can understand investigating to prove a suspicion but there is a fine line between snooping and "making sure". It's not healthy for you and proves you really aren't moving on.

One word Sandi uses a lot is respect. Obviously your wife has no respect for you. Respect is not the only building block but it is an important one. Even if you both do not work it out you can always tell when a woman has respect for you and earning it in a way is representative of how you act as a man in general. Alpha males generate a lot so you need to up your game.

Sex ... we all like it, at least I do but it needs to be done with passion, romanticism or any other positive emotion that 2 people generate. As mentioned in the forum a lot of times, WWS and women in particular use it as a weapon or bargaining tool to obtain an objective. As a guidline I always remember the expression that men and women are "wired" differently. With regards to sex, men need sex to create a bond. Women need a bond to have sex. Obviously this is not always the case but I think it is pretty accurate and seems to be true. Would you say there is a bond strong enough to push her to have sex with you? But by playing you she is also making you create a false bond.

Rear view mirror. Stop doing things and judging how they affect your W and if she will notice any change. The idea is that you DO change. She messed up and is responsible for her actions but from what I have read you are guilty of your own crimes. If you do not look into the mirror and see who you are and change what needs to be changed you will fail now and in any other relationship you may have. I can tell you from experience that I became a better man, husband and father as a result.

Contacting the OM. I will never forget the words from Cadet. Forget the OM focus on your R, he is just a distraction. So true. An OM/OW or EA PA only steps in when there is a crack in your R. Focus on your R so that your WWS also wants a R and will take the necessary steps to shut out any "distractions". At the end of the day it is the WWS who has to take those steps. An OM is like a mosquito buzzing around waiting for an opportunity and it is up to your W to stop that from happening. No matter how many times you shoo them away they always come back. And if not the same one then a replacement. It is your W job to not be a target anymore.

Bedroom. Are you guys still sharing the MB?

Another point ... GAL and being attractive to your W is not really cleaning up. I can tell you from my own experience I did not have to clean dishes left right and centre nor leave the house spotless. What I did make sure is to clean up after and not leave the are dirty. Going out on guys night bowling or "safe" areas are ok but sometimes guys stay away from dangerous areas in case W gets a hump. What are dangerous areas? well imagine your W dresses up looks sexy and goes with friends partying and arrives in the morning at what ever time. How do you feel? Bet your imagination goes wild. You on the other nad go to a gym and come back in the evening and are tucked up by bedtime. Imagine now you start to meet new people, male and female and go out to different places and also come back late or dont but open up your social circle. Things change.

What I would not advise is as some do and start a R with someone new while still in no mans land with their WWS. First because they are not emotionally ready, it messes up with the DB and may hurt the other person. Secondly because it is generally vindictive and just another example of not really moving on. Acts of revenge are filled with emotion against someone, unless of course you are a Klingon, and just show you are living in the past.

Finally, once again, read and understand. Do not use this website as the answer for everything, try to work out things on your own and understand how everything is related and affects you. Do not be afraid to fall, sometimes for some it is the only way. Sometimes we need to learn the hard way before it sinks in. The good thing is that then it never leaves.

As my dad used to say, if you don't listen you must feel. That was before I got a wipping for doing some stupid sh1t.

There are a lot more things but I hope this can be of help and you get something out of it.

Peace

Max


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Originally Posted by Maximus

Finally, once again, read and understand. Do not use this website as the answer for everything, try to work out things on your own and understand how everything is related and affects you. Do not be afraid to fall, sometimes for some it is the only way. Sometimes we need to learn the hard way before it sinks in. The good thing is that then it never leaves.


This is so good. Goes along with the not just reading the books but understanding them. So many of the newbies here struggle because the see this as a "follow the directions" exercise. "Here is what happened....tell me what to do."

But understanding will give you the tools necessary to adapt the advice you get, no matter from which source, to your exact set of circumstances.

Reminds me of a girlfriend I had when I was a teenager. I was a terrible boyfriend. Routinely she would ask me "What are you doing Friday night?" My answer was usually "I don't know yet."

One night, some buddies of mine and I went to a go-kart track. Her best-friend was the bf of one of my buddies and through him they found out we were going to the go-kart track. She showed up there. I wasn't thrilled as this was supposed to be a guy's night out and suddenly she was there.

After we rode the go-karts she wanted to talk. During the talk she said "I hate when I ask what you are doing coming up and you tell me I don't know yet. It makes me feel like you don't want to make plans with me and are keeping your options open." She said a lot of other things, but when we were done we started walking towards the rest of the group and she says "So what are you doing tomorrow night." I said "I don't know yet." She threw a fit!

Now say that I decided I wanted to save my R with her, and I came here and said "She just texted me and asked what I was doing tomorrow night! What should I say?" And one of the responses proposed was "tell her you don't know yet."? Should I blindly follow that advice? Of course not, and understanding the principles involved with DBIng, TRULY understanding, will be a huge guide to you about what will or won't work in your own sitch.

Long winded way of saying how much I agree with Maximus on this point!


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Originally Posted by Maximus

- You mentioned in your first post that you had ordered the books. Have you received them? Did you read them? Do you understand the message they are trying to get across?

- If you have answered yes to the above question why buy more books?



Yes I have received them, I can say that I've not read them both, and probably did a poor job at comprehending what I did read. When I started this, I could feel her distancing herself from me, thus the title of my post referencing "pre-bomb drop". In the process of reading the book, I discovered the PA, and shifted gears to affair recovery per advice from the pastor. Enter Dr. Harley's book and MWD's Healing from an affair.

Originally Posted by Maximus

To be honest I think you are still trying to save your M when one of the first things you should have learned by now is that the M you knew is gone. Furthermore you really don't want that one patched up as a long term investment for the future. You have to start from scratch



This is the mindset I'm striving for.... has been extremely challenging for me so far..

Originally Posted by Maximus

Another point to cut out is snooping.I understand that a lot of errors are textbook and we all do or did them but cut it out. I can understand investigating to prove a suspicion but there is a fine line between snooping and "making sure". It's not healthy for you and proves you really aren't moving on.



I'll admit to struggling with this. I guess because she says there has been no contact w/ OM, yet they see each other every day at work. I have been doing much better though. The first two weeks I was a mess and was trying to keep tabs on her. I think the fact that he cut off contact with her makes me think about what would happen if he changed his mind and wanted my WS instead of his BS.

Originally Posted by Maximus

Sex ... we all like it, at least I do but it needs to be done with passion, romanticism or any other positive emotion that 2 people generate. As mentioned in the forum a lot of times, WWS and women in particular use it as a weapon or bargaining tool to obtain an objective. As a guideline I always remember the expression that men and women are "wired" differently. With regards to sex, men need sex to create a bond. Women need a bond to have sex. Obviously this is not always the case but I think it is pretty accurate and seems to be true. Would you say there is a bond strong enough to push her to have sex with you? But by playing you she is also making you create a false bond.

Bedroom. Are you guys still sharing the MB?



Obviously I'm no longer initiating, but if she does? Do I decline? That would be a huge 180 for me... She's never been one to initiate often..

Yes, she spent the first couple nights out of the MB, but has been back for about a month now.

Originally Posted by Maximus

Finally, once again, read and understand. Do not use this website as the answer for everything, try to work out things on your own and understand how everything is related and affects you. Do not be afraid to fall, sometimes for some it is the only way. Sometimes we need to learn the hard way before it sinks in. The good thing is that then it never leaves.



I will focus on reading to comprehend instead of skimming over the material trying to find what I think applies to me. I'm realizing i've missed several nuggets of wisdom in my haste to burn through the material. Should I put away MWD's Healing from Infidelity for now? I'm thinking yes?


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Originally Posted by Steve85


This is so good. Goes along with the not just reading the books but understanding them. So many of the newbies here struggle because the see this as a "follow the directions" exercise. "Here is what happened....tell me what to do."


I'll be honest, I'm so emotionally and mentally drained from this process that it'd be nice to be able to follow directions at times.

This is the hardest thing I've ever had to deal with in my life, by far....


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Hi Bern,

Physical and emotional injuries are very similar. They hurt, affect your functions, need time to heal and leave scars.

Like many others you come here looking for answers but what you will receive is advice.

You need to find the answers yourself.

That is how you heal, learn and grow.

In answer to your reply:

- Yes I have received them, I can say that I've not read them both, and probably did a poor job at comprehending what I did read. When I started this, I could feel her distancing herself from me, thus the title of my post referencing "pre-bomb drop". In the process of reading the book, I discovered the PA, and shifted gears to affair recovery per advice from the pastor. Enter Dr. Harley's book and MWD's Healing from an affair. Why start on another book if you havent read the first one? Why read a different book to the forum you are in? Different solutions will only confuse you, especially if you are unprepared. Additionally, you will most likely cherry pick and go for the solutions that suit you most.

- This is the mindset I'm striving for.... has been extremely challenging for me so far.. It is important you achieve this. Whatever the cost.

- I'll admit to struggling with this. I guess because she says there has been no contact w/ OM, yet they see each other every day at work. I have been doing much better though. The first two weeks I was a mess and was trying to keep tabs on her. I think the fact that he cut off contact with her makes me think about what would happen if he changed his mind and wanted my WS instead of his BS. I suggest you only investigate to confirm but right now I think it is pretty clear what your situation is. Does it matter if she sees him once a week or seven times a week. You know your marriage is up sh1t creek. What does snooping offer? Will it get her back?

- Obviously I'm no longer initiating, but if she does? Do I decline? That would be a huge 180 for me... She's never been one to initiate often..

Yes, she spent the first couple nights out of the MB, but has been back for about a month now.
The fact you are still unsure reflects what I mean. The posts have concluded what women do and how sex is used. They even give you their opinion. You know the answer. What do you think? Apply it. You need to start making decisions. About the MB I mean if you have left it.

- I will focus on reading to comprehend instead of skimming over the material trying to find what I think applies to me. I'm realizing i've missed several nuggets of wisdom in my haste to burn through the material. Should I put away MWD's Healing from Infidelity for now? I'm thinking yes? No harm in finishing it. Suggest you apply techniques after reading all the books. The more information you have the better. What I do not suggest is cross reading with other therapies or techniques.

Peace

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I only have a couple of things to toss your way. You are reading conflicting messages in your books. IMHO, The Dare book is not what you need to follow at this time. From what I remember about it, the methods seem extremely pursuing...….which is not what the H should do with a WW. Dr. Harley has a lot of good information, however it doesn't always line up with what MWD teaches. I encourage you to finish reading Divorce Remedy (updated version of Divorce Busting). You may need to decide which method is for you, or risk being very confused.

The other thing I want to tell you is that a couple who has been in any type of affair, cannot continue working together. An affair is like a drug addiction, and seeing the affair partner every day will keep your W stuck fantasizing over the OM. In other words, your M is not going to get better until she has absolutely no contact (visual, verbal, written, etc.) with him. If she won't resign from that current work place, I think you need to face the fact that she is still in an affair (emotionally, at least) and you just waiting around on her, hoping her feelings will change, is not getting the right results.


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Originally Posted by Bern19

Originally Posted by Steve85


This is so good. Goes along with the not just reading the books but understanding them. So many of the newbies here struggle because the see this as a "follow the directions" exercise. "Here is what happened....tell me what to do."


I'll be honest, I'm so emotionally and mentally drained from this process that it'd be nice to be able to follow directions at times.

This is the hardest thing I've ever had to deal with in my life, by far....



I said the same thing....until we moved into piecing and Ring. THAT is the hardest thing you will ever have to deal with in your life. My point? It is going to get much harder.


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Originally Posted by sandi2
.

The other thing I want to tell you is that a couple who has been in any type of affair, cannot continue working together.






THIS^^^^^^^^^^

Several of us just covered this in someone else's thread. (I can't remember which, Hero18's I think). Seriously considering making her getting a new job a requirement for Ring.


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Ok, so after the discovery of the WW's affair, she said she wasn't sure what she wanted to do going forward. So after a couple of days of pursuit, I pulled back and started working detachment again. In the past month, we've spoken very little about the affair and even less about us. She's admitted the the initial disclosure on D-day wasn't completely truthful and that they had fabricated the timeline. I guess they figure that a 2 week affair is easier to own than a 2 year affair?

I've told her that I need an honest timeline and some details about the affair before I can even begin to consider reconciliation. She has been hesitant to do that, until yesterday. She told me she has made up her mind, and wants to stay and work on our marriage. She then asked me to put together a list of questions that I want answered truthfully and she would commit to doing it.

Any advice on questions I should ask? Do I give her a list and let her answer in writing, or do I make her do it orally, face to face. I guess I feel I have a better chance at getting a more complete answer by letting her write out her answers. However, with very little trust for her still, I wonder if that gives her too much time to "construct" her answers.

I'm trying not to get too hopeful for us until I get a feel for her disclosure and see if there will be any true remorse or if it will just continue to be clinical and emotionless. I know that making forgiveness too easy to attain just sets us up for failure down the road. I am encouraged that she approached me and claims to want to save the marriage, as until now, I haven't had anything hopeful to point to. Still in my mind I know that I need to be skeptical of what she says and does.

Still just keeping an even keel and not letting my emotions run away with me. Although I can see how easy that would be.


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She then asked me to put together a list of questions that I want answered truthfully and she would commit to doing it.


That seems odd. Maybe she wants to answer your questions once, and then put it in the past. But, you may have questions later, that you don't think about right now. She may also want them in writing, so she and OM can make sure their stories match. IDK, just guessing.

Here's the thing Bern. She should answer any question you have at any time. Yes, it's very uncomfortable for her, but you were the one betrayed. On that note, I want to caution you......if you don't want to really know the answer....then don't ask. Some things are hard to erase from the mind. You know yourself and what you can handle better than anyone.

She may not know it, but there needs to be a lot more than her answering some questions. It's about your need to feel secure in a relationship with her. It's about what she's willing to do to go forward in saving this MR. The first thing she needs to do is find another place to work. She cannot continue to work with OM in the same place. She needs to be willing to be transparent about her phone activity. She can't have secret relationships, and secret passwords, and secret texts, etc. You should be able to pick up her phone at any time, without warning or even without her knowledge, and look at her phone activity. Anytime a spouse doesn't want the other one seeing their phone, you can bet something shady somewhere. If she won't share her password, or she changes it, then she's keeping secrets. If she wants to grab her phone, and starts deleting things, then she's not being transparent.

Look, she doesn't get to call the shots about reconciliation, b/c she was the one who betrayed your trust.....not the other way around. Whatever you need in order for you feel secure in the relationship......she should be willing to do it. If she balks, then she's not ready to reconcile. She has betrayed you in the worst possible way. She is wayward and she has some tough work ahead. She may not have the desire or feelings.....but that's okay. All you need is her willingness and cooperation. The feelings will follow later.

She must do whatever is necessary to prevent any contact with OM. No visual, audio, or written contacts should be permissible. Why? B/c affairs are addictive, and even if she thinks she's through with OM, she's going to have the craving to have contact with him. If she has any contact, even sees him at a distance, it can place her back to square one again. It's hard. I've been through it. But she can do it. First, she has to get real about reconciling the MR. She needs to stop acting self righteous and making statements about how she doesn't know if she can trust you again. And YOU need to call her out on that kind of sh't. You didn't lie, cheat, and commit adultery. She did! Don't let her turn the tables, b/c she is trying to keep the spotlight off her own actions.

Don't let her lay out the terms. Don't you dare allow her to put your actions, or neglect, into the same classification with her and treat you as if you are just as guilty. She'll try. I know she'll try it. I've seen so many guys who were too eager, and jumped right in there with the WW to show her how willing he was to be transparent with her. No, that sends the wrong message. She's the one who needs to give an account.....not you. She's like nothing better than to treat you like you can't be trusted. However, you can be trusted, and you've proven it. She's proven she can't be trusted, and if you agree to reconcile, it will be under the condition that she will cooperate with your plan of transparency, to be carried as long as you need it.

I can't warn you enough, if she has half a chance, she'll mess with you and have you thinking you should be willing to do whatever terms she lays out. This isn't her call. It's your call. She can agree or disagree, but if she wants to stay in the MR, you had better set things straight by telling her how what you will expect. If she doesn't like it, she can leave. You don't want to repeat this experience again, so stick to your guns.

She should agree to pro-marriage counseling...….preferably one who specializes in healing after an affair. Just some hole in the wall counselor won't be enough. She may even need IC, but most couples have to get professional guidance to help them through the piecing stage. You don't have to go right away, but she needs to agree to do it in the very near future. (I can't remember if you are still seeing one, or not). Until she gets through the withdrawals of the affair addiction, I don't know that MC is going to do much good. So, first things first.

She shouldn't be taking any trips without you, for a long time. She shouldn't be taking "girls night out" or staying overnight with friends, until you feel completely safe in the MR and can trust her word (after a significant period of transparency). She should not excuse herself from your presence to go into another room for private phone calls. She should not do any computer activity behind closed doors or with secret passwords. She is transparent about all her activity. You have to handle it as if she's an addict, b/c she is.

She will probably accuse you of wanting to control or punish her. It's more WW cr@p. Don't get scared and back down. Transparency is not about control. It is a method of giving an account. I promise you if she is not trying to deceive you......she will be thrilled for you to see what a good girl she's been! If she's not, then she's not genuine about saving the MR. You see, there's a big difference in a WW who simply agrees to stay on in the M...…..and the WW who is willing do whatever is necessary to save the M. I don't think your W is quite there yet, but I hope I'm wrong.

Another important step to make immediately upon the decision to reconcile, is that she sleeps in the same bed as you. Don't start off the R by sleeping in separate rooms/beds. (That's not to say you have to have sex right away, but she needs to understand you won't continue doing without it.) Just don't agree to separate beds.

I may be forgetting something, cause I'm writing this quickly, but I think those are some of the main points in reconciling with a WW. Either or both of you can take a few days to think it over. That would give you extra time to check with the board, if you needed to ask a question.

Both of you will each have plenty of work to do, but it may not look exactly alike.


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Hi B

Each of you have a separate goal to achieve and both are a long way away.

To be quite frank you are not in the "hopeful" league yet to consider that any action she does now is for reconcilliation. My bet is it is for manipulation.

To be sincere and it may sound harsh and be against what others think, I really suggest you not focus on your wife right now (basically shut her out) but on yourself and for 2 reasons.

1) I do not see her ready to do anything with you and is playing you. If you are suckered you will be here in a year or so with even less credibility than before with your wife. You need to make yourself unavailable right now. Empty the hurt and the primary feeling of needing her back at any cost. She also has to feel your loss, your unavailability and show it.

2) Even if she works on the relationship you are still the same flawed person before BD but with the addition of being vulnerable. You need to improve yourself for you not her and if you do things the right way you will notice the changes in many ways, including seeing her differently. Not changing yourself and having her change will mean you will also be here back again in some time.

Even if you get to the stage where you both want to make it work, piecing is just as hard and requires you be on top of your game to make it work and we are talking years of being under scrutiny and under pressure to make it work.


An alternative view maybe to consider

Peace

Max


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Hi Bern. I’m neffer, I was a ww husband sometime ago. I’m sorry about your sitch. Really hard to read.

You are getting really good advice here man. Can’t be better. Remember some things Sandi, Steve and Maximus said: no working together, that is a no go. I agree with Maximus last post: work on yourself, detach.

Move forward B. Stay strong.


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Thanks guys....

The work thing is a problem as we get our health insurance through her job. I want her out of there badly, but having a few pre-existing conditions complicates things. We are working on this currently trying to find a solution...

I think she's finally willing and says she wants to cooperate, but I'm just gun-shy about jumping right into reconciliation until I get a full disclosure of the affair. Not that I plan on changing my mind about staying, but really want to know how deep this all went. Until I get my head around that, I don't even want to start discussing transparency and boundaries.

She has been going to IC and we went to our first joint session last weekend. The therapist seems very nice and is openly pro-marriage. After our first joint session, it seems she is still in withdrawal, but it is obvious that she is starting to come out of the fog as she's realizing how much this secret life caused her to neglect our family. Again, signs of progress but not enough for me to pronounce it time to proceed to working on the MR. It took years for us to get to this place, taking our time seems

She still wants to point to my neglect as a cause of her decision to cheat, she also knows that I'll admit to being emotionally absent and sometimes a jerk, which gave her a reason to ask me to sit down and talk, or go to counseling, or even for her to initiate a separation, if I wouldn't change. What it didn't do is give her an excuse to betray our MR and commit adultery. She knows she has to own that, and I'm hopeful that sitting down with me and answering my questions will shine some light on a few of the areas she's been avoiding talking about.

We are sleeping in the same bed. We haven't yet had actual intercouse though. I'm just not ready for that as of yet. Not that I'm not attracted to her, I'm just not there yet.

I am still working on myself, spending very little down time with her alone. Trying to pull more of my own weight around the house with the chores and the kids, but still taking time out for myself. Really enjoying going to the gym. Even went out with some old college buddies this past weekend.

The hardest part of all this is I still love my wife and I'd like to believe that this was all just a mistake and move forward to get fixing this. But I also know that is exactly how we got here. Had I found this place 5 years ago I might not be in this place. I know that it's going to get worse before it gets better. However, for the first time in a month, I'm starting to see that things are going to be OK, no matter what happens with my marriage.


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Don’t agree with being put at the same level with W. She decided to cheat, she has to own that. Don’t validate lies or disrespect. Long affairs tend to go on with more discretion. Be aware of that. Demand total transparency. Working together is a no go. Believe me, I was in that position sometime ago...


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Ok, so seems like there has been a shift in my WW's mood over the past few days. Last week, she was saying all the right things, like "choosing us", and being willing to answer all my questions, etc. But the last couple days she's been distant, cold, and almost standoffish. I've been working my detachment and GAL, but was looking forward to having her answer some questions I've had about the length and scope of her affair. I've been careful not to put much weight on her words as I know better than to believe her, but it seems clear she's having second thoughts about coming clean.


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Stay away from those talks. Stop the pressure. Stick to DB. You control yourself, can´t control W. Detach.

Take your time. Time to read, time to learn, time to rest, time to keep your mind clear. You need to do it.

Time and patience. It´s a marathon. Stay strong man.


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Ok, so seems like there has been a shift in my WW's mood over the past few days. Last week, she was saying all the right things, like "choosing us", and being willing to answer all my questions, etc. But the last couple days she's been distant, cold, and almost standoffish. I've been working my detachment and GAL, but was looking forward to having her answer some questions I've had about the length and scope of her affair. I've been careful not to put much weight on her words as I know better than to believe her, but it seems clear she's having second thoughts about coming clean.


She's had contact with him. Your MR doesn't stand a chance as long as she's working with him. She can't get through the withdrawals, b/c she sees him at work. It doesn't matter what OM's W says about him. Your W's first move in showing that she is serious about saving her M, is to leave that work location. It should not be okay with you that she and OM are working together. Do you understand how this feeds her affair addiction? Even if they aren't engaged in a PA, you can bet the EA is going strong! She has to go through withdrawals, which is impossible when she's seeing him at work.

She would like to act as if her affair was just a mistake, and move forward. It was more than just a mistake. She betrayed you for a long time. This requires healing. I know by the answers she's giving that she is not serious about saving the M, yet. I know by her responses, and how she still wants to focus on your negative issues......she's not serious, yet. I know b/c she is still working with OM. This MR will need serious therapy to guide both of you to a healthy place again. But first, she's got to get serious about saving it, and she's not.


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Sandi, that was the first thing that came to mind. She was all talk about R for 3 or 4 days until she went to work Monday morning. By Monday night, she was cold and distant. Wouldn't even look at me when I got home. Was pretty obvious to me that something had happened. At first I was upset and it probably showed. I had a rough day at work and then came home to that. It passed quickly & it didn't crush me like it would have 2 weeks ago. I just need to keep doing my thing. I know for a fact that she is not ready to be truthful with me, so why bother asking any questions.

I'm going to keep plugging along trying to have a MR, but for the first time, I'm thinking that this will probably end in D as I don't believe she will quit her job. I don't believe I can ever R while they still work together. That our family insurance is through her work was what had me hung up. That will be a major hurdle for our family. She has said that she is worried that if she quits her job and we end up not being able to make it work, she'd be out on the streets with nothing. She's convinced that this modest paying job is going to allow her to live the lifestyle she's been accustomed to. She's just not aware of how much it costs to run a household. We are doing OK, but if you split our income and have to pay for two of everything, life will definitely be different. Her shopping habit will take a huge hit, that's for certain.

I'm going to keep working on detaching. I'm getting better at it, but still have a way to go. Giving up all the spying a couple weeks ago was hard at first, but now I can see how it was keeping me stuck on her. Letting that go was a huge step for me to start the process of letting her go. I think at this point she's hoping that this will all settle down and things can go back to "normal". She doesn't yet realize that isn't an option that will work for me. Next time she initiates a "talk" I plan to let her know about a few of my boundaries and that should clear up any ideas about rug sweeping this mess.


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It passed quickly & it didn't crush me like it would have 2 weeks ago.


Good! Although you may not see much evidence of any progress toward reconciliation......there has been progress made in you. smile

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I know for a fact that she is not ready to be truthful with me, so why bother asking any questions.


I have to agree with you. Why waste your breath, if she's not going to be truthful?

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I'm going to keep plugging along trying to have a MR


My question is why would a man keeping plugging along trying to have a MR while his W is trying to have a relationship with another man? I know that you said you didn't think they were in a PA, currently. It doesn't mean she wouldn't like to be in a PA. The fact that she is still working with him, speaks volumes. Don't get me wrong here, b/c I'm not telling you to run out and get a divorce, rather than try to save your MR. I'm trying to see how you look at this picture.

If your WW makes not attempt to find another job, then you may need to consider taking a different approach. Once the WW has been confronted about her affair, there should be a clear understanding that things will not remain the same. In other words, there will either be a full reconciliation or a physical separation/divorce...…..but you aren't going to play house with her while she continues making goo-goo eyes at OM.

Have you given her any stipulations about reconciling? For example, have you told her that you will not reconcile if she continues working with the OM? It's simply unacceptable. Until she stops working with him, you are wasting time and precious energy, cause nothing will work until she ends all type of contact with him. This is when you have to stand very firm on your principles/values. Don't compromise with a cheater. How incredible inconsiderate to her husband, for an unfaithful W to continue working with her lover. Talk about rubbing it in your face!

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That our family insurance is through her work was what had me hung up. That will be a major hurdle for our family.


Is there someone in the family that has an ongoing physical health issue? Have you researched other insurance companies? It may come down to choosing between insurance and marriage. cry

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She has said that she is worried that if she quits her job and we end up not being able to make it work, she'd be out on the streets with nothing.


In true WW form, she shows no concern for your feelings, or even the insurance issue. She's only concerned about herself.

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She's convinced that this modest paying job is going to allow her to live the lifestyle she's been accustomed to. She's just not aware of how much it costs to run a household. We are doing OK, but if you split our income and have to pay for two of everything, life will definitely be different.


It's all part of her fantasy. WW's are not very realistic.

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Next time she initiates a "talk" I plan to let her know about a few of my boundaries and that should clear up any ideas about rug sweeping this mess


Just for the record, you don't have to wait for her to initiate a talk before you set boundaries. In fact, stating your boundary is not an introduction for discussion. She has a choice to honor it or dishonor it. But if she dishonors it, you need to know what action you will then take.

I'll give an example. Let's say you state the following boundary: "I will not stay in a relationship where my wife works with her current or previous affair partner". You aren't telling her what she can or cannot do. She can make her own choice. If she does nothing, and continues working with OM, then you have to back up your word and physically separate (maybe even divorce). Currently, she doesn't believe you have the b@lls to do it, and just plugging along trying to have a relationship with her......isn't likely to change her mind.

What other boundaries are you considering? I am concerned that you really just want to talk about it, and you may even think telling her something is your boundary will settle things. It doesn't. And, boundaries are not confronting the WW. The WW is going to test you to see what you'll do when she doesn't honor your boundary. The stronger the consequences, the more effective the boundary. You don't have to "discuss" the consequences or anything else. Just state the boundary, and know what you are going to do to back it up......b/c she's going to try you. And listen, if you can't back it up, it's better if you never open your mouth. To state a boundary and then do nothing if it's disrespected...….is like serving your b@lls on a silver platter to her. You have to carry through with some type of effective action. By effective......I don't mean you simply ignore her. That's a classic nice guy move, to just ignore the WW.

Come here, first, to discuss your boundaries and how you'll enforce them. We can help you fine tune them. One word of caution while I'm thinking about it...….don't start walking around the house crowing about a bunch of things suddenly becoming your boundaries. I've seen some newbies do it, and it is a dead give away to her that you've been reading some book...….and she'll just roll her eyes and not take it seriously.

My suggestion is that you don't give her a laundry list of boundaries, if you know what I mean. State one boundary. See how you do with that one, and maybe a little later you'll need to state another boundary.

Do you have any questions about boundaries?


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Originally Posted by sandi2
My question is why would a man keeping plugging along trying to have a MR while his W is trying to have a relationship with another man? I know that you said you didn't think they were in a PA, currently. It doesn't mean she wouldn't like to be in a PA. The fact that she is still working with him, speaks volumes. Don't get me wrong here, b/c I'm not telling you to run out and get a divorce, rather than try to save your MR. I'm trying to see how you look at this picture.


I guess like most guys on here it's because I still love my wife. I'm finally starting to wrap my head around the idea that she no longer exists and this new person is not who I fell in love with. To further complicate things, I don't personally believe in divorce. I know it sounds stupid, but I married this woman because I saw the pain that she went through when her parents divorced when she was 15 years old. She swore that she would never put her family through anything like she went through. Yet, here we are... Obviously that's not the only reason I married her, but was something that I considered before I chose to give my heart to her.


Originally Posted by sandi2
Is there someone in the family that has an ongoing physical health issue? Have you researched other insurance companies? It may come down to choosing between insurance and marriage.


Yes, I deal with afib and was diagnosed with heart failure two years ago. I have insurance available to me through my job, but it's nowhere near what we can get through her job. (govt.). That and the pre-existing condition issue have me stuck between a rock and a hard place. That is why I haven't dropped this on her as a boundary as I'm not sure if I'm ready to back it up until I have researched the health insurance things.


Originally Posted by sandi2
What other boundaries are you considering?


Since I can't yet back up the boundary of quitting her job, I'd like to state something about not sharing her with him in any capacity. Not as lovers, friends, buddies or anything. I can't be with her as long as she is having any contact with him. I get that it's hard to enforce when they can see each other every day. I do have one ally at her work that I can count on to hold her accountable, but there are two others there that will go out of their way to protect her and may have even encouraged her affair.


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Originally Posted by Bern19
I've been working my detachment and GAL, but was looking forward to having her answer some questions I've had about the length and scope of her affair.


Why? You already know the answers and you won't like them? What difference does it make? If she tells you its been going on for years and it happened in your bed, your car, and your kids call him daddy are you outta there?

What will "knowing" do for you?


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Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
What will "knowing" do for you?


I'm just one of those guys.... I need to know how long she's been lying. Just need to know so I can try to wrap my head around it all. Not sure if it will affect my desire to R or not, but not knowing isn't working for me.


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I still don't get it. She's been lying longer than she's told you and longer than you know or want to believe. If you want to save the MR, I'd put that on hold for a long time. I think MWD addressed this either in her books or on a podcast she did with Neil Sattin. I'd look for it if I were you.


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Originally Posted by Bern19
Since I can't yet back up the boundary of quitting her job, I'd like to state something about not sharing her with him in any capacity. Not as lovers, friends, buddies or anything. I can't be with her as long as she is having any contact with him. I get that it's hard to enforce when they can see each other every day. I do have one ally at her work that I can count on to hold her accountable, but there are two others there that will go out of their way to protect her and may have even encouraged her affair.


This will never work. Relying on people to spy or tattle on your W is useless. She has to WANT to change her behavior and cut all contact. In real R, that would mean changing jobs.


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To further complicate things, I don't personally believe in divorce. I know it sounds stupid, but I married this woman because I saw the pain that she went through when her parents divorced when she was 15 years old.


No, it's not stupid, if you truly believe divorce is wrong. I am trying to figure out how you look at things.

You say you married her b/c you saw her going through pain of her parents' D when she was 15. Was that your way of rescuing her and/or offering her a new life? I assume you were in love with her. But, was she really in love with you? (You don't have to type out a response, I just want you to think about it.) When a young teenage girl wants out of her current home life so badly, she'll nearly M the first boy that's willing to help her. I have seen so many girls marry young, trying to get out of a bad situation.

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She swore that she would never put her family through anything like she went through. Yet, here we are...


I'm sure she meant it at the time, but she was still a kid, and people change.

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That is why I haven't dropped this on her as a boundary as I'm not sure if I'm ready to back it up until I have researched the health insurance things.


Well, I can sympathize. But I encourage you to get on that research now. It would be terrible to feel you are forced to stay with a cheater, just to have insurance coverage. And, if she thinks you have no choice but to let her remain at that job, then she'll feel she has you by the b@lls, and your MR will be washed up. So get busy about that insurance stuff. Besides, if she decides she wants the D, then you'll be looking for supplemental insurance anyway.

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Since I can't yet back up the boundary of quitting her job, I'd like to state something about not sharing her with him in any capacity. Not as lovers, friends, buddies or anything. I can't be with her as long as she is having any contact with him. I get that it's hard to enforce when they can see each other every day. I do have one ally at her work that I can count on to hold her accountable, but there are two others there that will go out of their way to protect her and may have even encouraged her affair.


Until she has made a clear, verbal commitment to do whatever is necessary to save the M, she's not going to honor this type of boundary of not being friends, etc., with OM. It's not the job of your ally to hold her accountable. Beside, it would place a lot of stress on the ally. S/he is the one who has to work there every day with your W. Your WW would highly resent it, and I'm sure the friction would not be worth it to your ally. Plus, the others at work who encourage the affair will make an outcast of the ally, or maybe cause other problems at work. (I've seen this happen a lot.) Women are like cats, especially when they work in the same company.

If I understood correctly, your WW made a half-hearted attempt to indicate she had decided to stay in the M. However, that's not the same as committing to do the necessary work to get over this affair and repair the MR. She has no idea of the hard work ahead that she needs to do. I have a pretty good idea where her head is right now, and she's thinking that you'll accept what OM's W told you as being a done deal and the affair is over......and everything goes back to the way it was previously, if she plays her cards right. But. that's not how it works. She's going to see OM at the office every day and it's going to keep those feelings stirred for him. OM and your WW think they'll lay low for a couple of weeks, but eventually they start giving each other the eye contact, meet up at the water fountain, take coffee breaks at the same time, start sending emails, etc., until it's back full on again. Working together keeps the emotional embers fanned, and it doesn't take look until it's a blazing flame again. It's inevitable. If they have to sneak around and hide in a broom closet, that just makes it more exciting.

So, back to your boundary about not sharing her. What are you prepared to do, should she not respect your boundary? The effectiveness of any boundary is determined by the consequences. Weak consequences reap weak boundaries. No consequences equal no boundaries. A person who disrespects you doesn't care if they cross your personal boundary, but if they suffer b/c they made the choice to cross it....…..then it might cause them to reconsider. See what I mean? She is currently wayward minded, and her feelings for you did not bounce back just b/c OM's W called a halt to the A. Don't expect a wayward W to do the honorable thing, b/c she's already proven that she can't be trusted, right? If she'll compromise or disrespect her wedding vows, she'll have no problem disrespecting your personal boundary, unless the price is too steep for her. See what I mean? She has to decide if contact with OM is worth the price she'll have to pay. The consequences have to be harsh enough that she'll at least think twice before dishonoring that boundary. Sadly enough, most WW's who are in the thick of an affair, allow their emotions to dictate their decisions. That means, most of them have to experience consequences. It's usually the loss that breaks through the affair fog enough to at least get the WW's attention and see what she is doing.

You say you can't be with her as long as she has contact with OM. What does that mean? Does it mean physical separation? B/c anything less than that, will not phase her, and a physical separation may not be enough to stop her. But check with a lawyer before you give any hints/threats of going that far. You need to know where you would stand financially, and your rights. So, use this time wisely and don't mess around.


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Originally Posted by sandi2
You say you married her b/c you saw her going through pain of her parents' D when she was 15. Was that your way of rescuing her and/or offering her a new life? I assume you were in love with her. But, was she really in love with you? (You don't have to type out a response, I just want you to think about it.) When a young teenage girl wants out of her current home life so badly, she'll nearly M the first boy that's willing to help her. I have seen so many girls marry young, trying to get out of a bad situation.


We both grew up in relatively conservative Christian homes, so we were just brought up that way. I know that's why she was so affected by her parents divorce. We dated as kids, but then split up when I went off to college. We ended up getting back together about 6 years later. I was and still am in love with her and I believe she was in love with me. Of course with all that has transpired lately, I'm questioning everything in my life. While I don't believe in divorce, I've been thinking that I need to prepare for it as she might make that decision for me, or leave me rethinking my own beliefs on the matter.

I will get working on the insurance info now as you're right, she may make the decision for me that forces me to figure that out. No sense in waiting...

As for the boundaries, I've been trying to figure that out. It seems everything I've read says to never leave the home. So not sure about a physical separation. Not sure if I asked her to leave if she would? I'm thinking not, unless I threaten exposure to the family/church/friends. That may be the final nail in the coffin of our M.

I realize that something has to change to get her attention. Right now she seems content to just go back to the way things were. I'm not sure why... if things were so bad that she had to seek out an affair, why would she want to go back there? I spent the first couple weeks doing all the wrong things (begging/pleading/pursuing) but as i've settled in I've realized that I wasn't all that happy with our marriage either. I don't want to go back to that stale relationship. I want to be a better husband, but I want something better, too. Why do I still want her? It would be much easier to just say screw this and move on with my life, but I know I'll regret it if I don't give everything I have to trying to revive my M.

I really need to figure this out as I've been doing pretty good with my detachment and GAL, but have been dealing with nightmares the past several nights. Makes starting each day real fun when you get a chance to relive the whole mess every night.


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While I don't believe in divorce, I've been thinking that I need to prepare for it as she might make that decision for me, or leave me rethinking my own beliefs on the matter.


Some people don't believe in a heaven and hell, but my advice to them is that they had better make preparations now. We may not agree with divorce or want it, but ignoring the reality is not very smart. So, getting legal advice and doing whatever you need to do to protect your rights is smart. You don't discuss it with her. Your business is private. It may feel strange, but those days of sharing with her every move you make is over. Some WW's make some very underhanded moves when they start to get custody or divorce, so you can't trust her. She's not that young, helpless girl any longer.

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As for the boundaries, I've been trying to figure that out. It seems everything I've read says to never leave the home.


What does that have to do with your boundaries? Do you even know what your boundaries are? Have you read the boundaries thread Cadet posted to you? I suggest you not say anything to her about something being your boundary, until you know what you are doing.

Well, it is preferable for the faithful spouse to remain in the home, but in some cases, it's not possible for various reasons. Moving out, or not, is why you need legal advice. Some have said it makes no difference in custody, b/c everything is 50/50, while others say the lawyer suggests to stay in the home. Ask a local attorney.

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So not sure about a physical separation. Not sure if I asked her to leave if she would? I'm thinking not, unless I threaten exposure to the family/church/friends. That may be the final nail in the coffin of our M.


If you have physical separation, then you have your kids 50% of the time. It's not like you abandoned them. One of you would have to find another place to live. If one person can't handle the mortgage, then sell the house. Yes, it is serious and tough stuff, b/c this is what you do when you are not willing to live in open marriage. How do you think she would ever have respect for you if you passively sit back while she sleeps with OM?

You are hesitant about physical separation, but would expose her to everyone? I don't suggest you threaten her with this type of exposure in order to force her to end her affair. I suggest you not threaten a WW with anything. It shows more strength, character and honor, when a man physically separates from his adulterous W, rather than threaten to expose her to the world. Just for the record, I'm not saying you need to lie for her.

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Why do I still want her?


B/c she doesn't want you. B/c she turned to another man. B/c you are afraid of losing her. B/c you are dependent on her. B/c you have this family picture that is your identity with the community, all your friends, the church, etc. You see yourself as a family man.....and don't know how to be anything else.

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It would be much easier to just say screw this and move on with my life,


I don't believe a word of that statement, for the reasons I just stated above. You are scared to death to move on with your life without her, and that's why you are trying to figure out how to stay with a cheating wife.


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To continue from my previous post, I thought I would copy something I had previously sent to another member explaining boundaries. I hope it helps.

Okay, to start explaining boundaries (and I am not an expert), you first have to understand what they are and what they aren't. Think of a personal boundary like an invisible circle around you. This circle is to protect your feelings. Anything that crosses over that line, disrespects you.

You are the one who decides what is offensive/disrespectful to you. This should be based on your standards of values, principles, morals, religious beliefs, integrity, self respect, etc. If something offends you, then there should be a reason it is offensive. In other words, don't just go by whatever you feel that day, b/c emotions can be fickle. When it comes to your boundaries, they should not really change unless your beliefs change to support it. Does that make sense?

You cannot control other people actions. You only control yourself. In a relationship, you can tell the other person their actions are disrespectful toward you. They have the choice of honoring your boundary, or ignoring it. If you can't control anyone but yourself, what happens if your boundary is disrespected after you tell the other person their actions are offensive? You respond with some type of action.

Let's bring it on down to a MR. To clarify by using the word "action", this is not to be interpreted as meaning you respond in any type of violence or abuse. If necessary, take the action to leave.

I believe most WW's have to experience some type of consequences when she shows disrespect to her H. The first time, he can tell her that is disrespectful and he will not tolerate it. The second time it happens, he needs to be ready to respond with some type of action that will result as a consequence for her.......in order to be effective. Of course, he can always walk away or leave the house, but he can't do that for everything or she'll just see him "running away", and interpret it as weakness (depending on the situation). And for nice guys, they have to watch their tendency to be passive-aggressive.

To use an example of a enforcing a boundary, let's say the WW calls her H and is yelling, cursing, and b'tching at him. He tells her he will not tolerate being spoken to over the phone in that disrespectful manner. She ignores him and continues to raise he!!. Does he warn her again? No! What can he do? He hangs up! If she calls again and starts the same stuff, he hangs up and doesn't answer again. No arguing, no negotiation, no more warnings.

That was a simple one, and the bigger the offense, the bigger the consequence should be. Some people might argue that it is punitive. I suppose you will have to make that decision. You are protecting yourself by doing something that clearly gives her the message that you will not be treated in that disrespectful manner. She doesn't have to agree or like it. She doesn't have to do it, but if she ignores your one warning......then there will be some action from you that protects your feelings from her disrespect.

Never say you will not tolerate some behavior, if you can't stand behind your word. In the link on boundaries, I think they use an example of the boundary "I will not stay in an open MR". Some newcomers with a WW in an A thought they would jump right on that one. Well guess what? The A did not stop and the newcomers were trying to back peddle, b/c they were not ready to carrying through with what they said.

What makes you feel disrespected? (You don't have to list those things here). Women can show disrespect for their H in many ways. The passive nice guy settles for her bad treatment, and some day she's showing him disrespect in front of his kids, his friends, his parents, his boss, strangers......and it gets worse as time goes on. We teach people how to treat us.


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Sandi, thank you for spending some time on my sitch. I've been absent the past couple of days as I've been trying to figure out some things and thinking about what boundaries I can start with.

My wife claims to have cut off all communication with the OM. She has been going to IC with a Christian therapist and has become much more open and transparent with me. She seems willing to start working on the marriage, and has been doing and saying many of the things I've been waiting for. We have are going to MC tomorrow morning and she has told me that she will truthfully answer any questions that I have about her affair, but wants to do it during our session tomorrow. I've been hesitant to ask questions and we haven't really talked much about the affair since the first couple days after D-day. The reason is I'm still having major trust issues and told her I didn't want to ask any more questions till I knew she was ready to be honest with me. At that time, she was still protecting the OM. I told her that I can't take any more lies, omissions or spinning of the facts. She claims she is now ready to do that. My problem is I'm not sure I can believe anything she says. In fact, I know that I shouldn't until she proves herself. I have a list of questions about 1.5 pages long that i've been compiling as I think things over. Some probably don't really matter, but others I just have to know. So, do I move forward and ask the questions? Do I wait till we are further down the road?

As for some boundaries, one that I've settled on is that I will not share my wife with any other man. Not as friends, text buddies, lovers, anything... I know that some might say that forbidding her to have male friends is too controlling, but she obviously has an issue with enforcing her own boundaries or she wouldn't of ended up in bed with the OM. So not having male friends/buddies/pals is something she will have to live with, if she wants to stay with me. Is that going too far? I feel like that is what I need from her (at least right now) to make me feel safe. Also, she claims she isn't communicating with the OM, but if i were to discover she was talking/texting/emailing him while telling me she isn't, that would be a deal breaker that I couldn't get past. What's the best way to verbalize that to her?

I'm realizing that I've done a poor job of setting boundaries my whole life.


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Good stuff Bern! Keep up the good work.

Remember, she will need to show consistent behavior over a long period of time before you can trust it. Continue to believe nothing she says.


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Originally Posted by Steve85
Remember, she will need to show consistent behavior over a long period of time before you can trust it. Continue to believe nothing she says.


Thanks Steve. It’s been a tough couple of months. At times I feel like I’m getting things under control (those things that I can control) and am letting go of the things I can’t. Still drop the ball now and then, but do feel like I’m making progress. I want to believe we are making progress too, but I just can’t get the idea that she was able to lie to me for over two years out of my head. I want to ask her questions, but if she were to lie again now, I know I couldn’t forgive that and any shot of R goes out the window. So, the question is whether I’m ready to gamble this marriage by asking for the facts and hope she is being truthful? I wish I was sure she was being honest, but with her track record over the past couple years I’m just thinking about waiting and taking the time tomorrow to listen and set a boundary if I get an opportunity. Maybe the MC will have some thoughts.


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Well, back to square one in my sitch... Wife had been saying all the right things. At our last MC session, she had opened up about the affair. Answered some of my questions... Pretty much what I had expected. It'd been going on for about 3 years. Started as EA & has been physical the last 2. Since that's pretty much what I expected, It didn't wreck me like I thought it might. Biggest thing that I think about now is all the times she came in and asked me how she looked or which outfit to wear... it was more about looking good for the OM than wanting my opinion on how she looked. The other one that really bothers me was how she said that she didn't really agonize over the decision to bring him into our home for sex. It was just about convenience. Didn't even consider it an additional betrayal... smh.

So things were going pretty good, still having an issue with setting boundaries with male "friends". Got very defensive when I mentioned that I wasn't comfortable with her interacting "one on one" with other men. Either in person or via text, messages, snapchat, etc. Said not one of her friends is forbidden from talking to other men. The heightened level of her defense set off way to many alarms that something was amiss. So I asked her to see her phone... she was slightly agitated by the request, but handed it over. I checked her text messages- nothing. Facebook messenger- nothing. Snapchat- bingo. A different guy from work has the little heart next to his name. I've done enough research to know that means she sends more snaps to him than anyone else..AND he sends more snaps to her than anyone else. I told her that made me uncomfortable due to the fact that there is no trail of texts to read as they disappear after so many seconds. She feels that i'm being unreasonable. That's when I knew something was wrong...

So, in a panic that we are back to square one, I left one of my kids cell phones in her car that has a location app installed on it. I know, not a good DB move, but I had to know what I was dealing with. So, I can pull it up on my phone and see where she is in real time. The first day, I pull up the app when I know she is leaving work and see her drive into town and park on the far side of the local grocery store.... for 20+ mins. I know she wouldn't park out there and walk into shop, so I called her. It went to voicemail. She called me back about 10 mins later and said she was sorry, but was in talking to her boss about something and couldn't answer.... Lies... Lies.. Lies...

So to be certain I did it again the next day, and the same thing.. stopped off at a parking lot in town for about 15 mins. When I asked her about her day, she skipped right past that.

Now, I don't know who she is meeting with, but obviously she is hiding it from me, so I'm imagining it's either this new guy that she's chatting with, or more likely it's the original OM.

My plan now is to hire a PI to find out who it is, just so I have the facts, then to confront her and tell her she's moving out. It's obvious that there is little chance to reconcile until she hits rock bottom. Maybe having her out of the house during Christmas season will do that. What do I do if she refuses to leave? Do I move out? The attorney I have spoken with told me that, ideally, I should stay in the home. I'm not willing to get involved with an in-home separation.

At this point, I'm going to have to take my DB to the next level. I've been doing better with GAL, and will have to double down on the detachment phase. I'll admit I've let that slide since it appeared we were moving forward. It's just crazy that she can lie to me, her mom, her friends and her therapist with no reservations. I now clearly see what Sandi, Steve, and countless others said about being too eager to start the recovery process.

She has sworn on everything she holds dear that she was done lying to me. Obviously the girl I knew and loved is gone. There is no reason for me to hold on to that fantasy any longer. If someday she decides that she made the wrong choice and wants to talk, I'll listen to her. But I am no longer encouraged about saving my marriage. Going to re-read the DR book and add a few things to my GAL.


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Oh, and wife doesn't know that I'm on to her, so she is still acting all sweet and talking about christmas decorations and next years vacation. Even cuddling as we go to sleep each night. The last couple nights have been so hard to lay there while she talks about her day and holds my hand.

I know I've been told to stop trying to figure her out as nothing she does now can be seen logically, but my mind is truly blown. It appears she is willing to gamble 50% of her kids lives for this forbidden thrill.... what a shame.


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Bern,
What are your plans with all this info. Why spend the money on a PI? You already know she's lying. Does it really matter why she's lying? You are letting her cake eat. I would be confronting her now about her lies. Cuddling at night time, telling her about her day and holding your hand, why are you putting yourself through this?


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The PI is just so I have the facts. If you've never dealt with someone that will lie to you, even though you know the truth, you might not understand. It's only about having the info I need. I've "jumped the gun" confronting her so many times over the past 3 years with partial information only to have her come up with some "semi-plausible" explanation that I can't refute because I don't have all the facts. I'm done with that type of confrontation. I've made it this far, I can hold on for a few more days till I have what I need to be comfortable moving on. Maybe your a different type, one that could move on without the facts. I am not that person. Thanks for your post.


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Originally Posted by RyanHun
Bern,
What are your plans with all this info. Why spend the money on a PI? You already know she's lying. Does it really matter why she's lying? You are letting her cake eat. I would be confronting her now about her lies. Cuddling at night time, telling her about her day and holding your hand, why are you putting yourself through this?

Confronting will do nothing. You have to take action to reaffirm your boundaries on your spouse seeing other people. Simply confronting says "I know you're doing this and I'm not doing anything about it".


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Ovr,
That's why I included the part about the cuddling, hand holding etc. Would it not make sense just to let her know that you are aware of the ongoing lies and remove yourself from that situation?


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Originally Posted by ovrrnbw

Confronting will do nothing. You have to take action to reaffirm your boundaries on your spouse seeing other people. Simply confronting says "I know you're doing this and I'm not doing anything about it".


Yes, I know confronting will do nothing, but I do still want the facts. Maybe you weren't dealing with someone as manipulative as I am? The only way this can go down without a confrontation is if I leave my home. I don't want to leave my home. If she wants to be with someone else, then she needs to go live with someone else. I'd rather sit her down and explain that I know she's lying to me and have the facts to back it up. I've already verbalized the boundary that I will not share any part of her with him. Not as friends, text buddy's, or lovers. Even if she's just talking to him, she's lying to me. I explained that is a deal breaker for me. She is aware of that. I would tell her that until she is prepared to stop with all the lies and betrayal, she needs to go. ... but first I need the facts. If you don't understand that, i get it. We are all different people. That is just something I need for me. I have no problem taking a 2x4 to the face to get my attention, but when it's something I know that I need, i'm going to stick to that.


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Sorry if that came across too aggressive... I know you guys are here to help, I just know that this is the way I need to handle the process. I've noticed that some people are often great at suggesting you run right out and "dump the whore" or "kick her to the curb". I know that's not what you were doing, but I have no desire to hurt my wife. I just want to make it clear to her that I won't tolerate her behavior any more. She is free to do whatever she likes, but not if those things cross my boundaries. Talking, seeing, screwing the OM crosses a clear boundary that I set. That comes with a consequence... either she leaves or I guess I have to. What really [censored] is even though she is the one looking outside the marriage, I can't make her leave. If she won't go, and I can't be with her because of her actions, then I guess i have to leave.... her being out of the home over christmas sounds much better than me being out of my house for christmas. Any suggestions on how to get her to leave?


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Bern,
My apologies for not getting my thoughts across clearer. I think you are handling things perfectly. My intention wasn't to come across as mean and vindictive towards W, it was more about you but sounds like you have things covered. All you can do is stick to your boundary. I wish I had some advice for you on how to get her to leave as I'm in the same boat, but she refuses. I was lucky that I managed a bit of free time since her parents went away and she lived over there. I am dreading the 17th as she mentioned she is returning home. I don't really think there is anything you can do except try and make the best of the IHS.


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Ryan, I appreciate that. I don’t really feel like I have things under control. I’m just learning how to let go of the rope as it were. I really don’t think I’d be able to handle the IHS. How does that work? Can you give me some pointers on how you interact. Does she still sleep in your bed? I know the time is near when I get to make a demand that I can live with. I just doubt she’ll pack up and leave... thanks again.


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Dude, you are a better man than I am. There’s no way I could cuddle and hold hands with my W when I knew she was doing as you suspect. I’m not patient enough to handle that....Probably part of the reason I haven’t seen any improvement in my situation!

I’m with you though, I need facts too. Not knowing the truth drives me absolutely nuts.

I’m curious what the PI finds so update us! Stay strong!


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I guess you can't really call it cuddling... She puts her hand on my arm and pulls my hand up on her knee. Nothing to write home about. Of course I would have killed for her touch 3 months ago...

I heard back from one PI, but his retainer is out of sight. Tried explaining my sitch and that it would only be 2-5 hours of surveillance, tops. Hard to justify $500/hour....

I want to get this over with as soon as possible so we can figure out how to move on. The longer it takes, the closer we get to christmas and I don't want to dump this on my kids too close to the holiday.


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Originally Posted by Bern19
I guess you can't really call it cuddling... She puts her hand on my arm and pulls my hand up on her knee. Nothing to write home about. Of course I would have killed for her touch 3 months ago...

I heard back from one PI, but his retainer is out of sight. Tried explaining my sitch and that it would only be 2-5 hours of surveillance, tops. Hard to justify $500/hour....

I want to get this over with as soon as possible so we can figure out how to move on. The longer it takes, the closer we get to christmas and I don't want to dump this on my kids too close to the holiday.


Good god. I should maybe consider a career change and I'm an attorney......

Maybe you should do a little of your own investigative work? Put some type of a recording device in her car? I remember reading a thread on here that someone did that.


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I'll be honest, I don't want to hear the "goings on"... I've already lived through that in real life... So not an option I'm willing to pursue at this time. I'd just like to confirm that she is, in fact, seeing him at all. She has lied to me about where she was at. That's enough to do more that just raise some flags, but with the christmas season on us, I can't confront her to find out she's Christmas shopping or something else ridiculous like that. Trust me, she is a master truth twister. If i don't have concrete evidence to proof what I know, it's like it never happened. I'm learning she lives in some sort of bizarro world, where the truth is only the truth if you have physical proof.... Maddening...


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Do you have a buddy who would be willing to follow at a distance just to scope things out at the parking lot she frequents even just one day?


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not one that I feel like I can dump that on. I had become co-dependent and have friends, but they are mostly our friends and I don't want to mix that up right now. I had several close friends over the years, but have let myself get sucked in to where my world revolved around her.

That's the one I still need to work on.. I'm getting out and doing things, either with my kids or by myself, but haven't really put myself out there in a way to get close to anyone. I have tons of people in town that I'm friendly with, it's just the one's i'd consider close enough to disclose my sitch to are all "our" friends.


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Originally Posted by Bern19
not one that I feel like I can dump that on. I had become co-dependent and have friends, but they are mostly our friends and I don't want to mix that up right now. I had several close friends over the years, but have let myself get sucked in to where my world revolved around her.

That's the one I still need to work on.. I'm getting out and doing things, either with my kids or by myself, but haven't really put myself out there in a way to get close to anyone. I have tons of people in town that I'm friendly with, it's just the one's i'd consider close enough to disclose my sitch to are all "our" friends.



Yes, understandable. We are still IHS, so I've only disclosed our situation to two of my close friends I met in college before I met my W and was married. They don't live close by either. No one in our town and "our" group of friends knows anything about our situation to my knowledge, so I'd be in the same boat as you on what I suggested.


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Ok, update time. I had suspicions that my ww was still seeing the om, even though we were in MC and she insists she isn’t. Today I had the day off. I decided to follow her from work even though I knew it wasn’t likely that they would meet since she knew I was off. We’ll sure enough she drove right to the grocery store parking lot and guess whose truck was there? You guessed it... the OM. I pulled up and there was no one in his truck, so I went around to the other side and opened the WW door and boy was she surprised to see me. Turns out he was in the store and she was waiting for him. I handed her a note that I had written explaining that she had crossed a boundary that I clearly verbalized and that I needed her to move out of our home. She took it and drove off. I stayed behind to talk with OM. That went about as well as expected. He claimed she didn’t even know she was there. I said if that was stalking you she wouldn’t park in the next parking space.

Meanwhile WW is blowing up my phone and I just kept declining the call. When I got home she tried to blow it off as no big deal and that I was over reacting. I asked her if she was going to pack her things, she said no. I said that I guess I’ll have to then. She couldn’t believe that I was that worked up about her just talking to him. I started to explain that it wasn’t just that they were talking, it was that she was still willing to lie to me about it. She’s lied to me and the MC about having any contact with him. Then I remembered that there is no reasoning with her. She’s still in the fog and still attached to him. She said she doesn’t feel anything for him...

I told her that I couldn’t be with someone that is willing to lie to me so easily. That I deserved better and that I should be able to expect honesty, love, and appreciation from my wife. If she wouldn’t leave, then I’ll have to. I told her I wouldn’t be going to her moms for Christmas and she would be coming to mine. Then I said something I regret when I told her she wasn’t welcome to attend church with our family anymore. That was out of line and I’ll have to apologize for that.

Anyway, she had to leave to go back for her mid-day shift and when she walked out she said that I should probably call my IC and tell him I plan on leaving my family because she talked to the OM. She was pretty hot and mentioned something about exposing the fact that she caought me mastubating to porn I’d i out her to our friends... then she left.

So, it’s 4 days till Christmas, do I move out or wait till after the holiday? I want some space, but I have two kids that are young enough to still bank on Christmas as a special time of year. My youngest still believes in Santa... I don’t know what to do... any advice?


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Originally Posted by Bern19
So, it’s 4 days till Christmas, do I move out or wait till after the holiday? I want some space, but I have two kids that are young enough to still bank on Christmas as a special time of year. My youngest still believes in Santa... I don’t know what to do... any advice?


Bern19,

Good job confronting the OM.

I don't have specific advice for you, but I don't think you should be the spouse that has to move out. Your wife is the cheater, she should move out. I think I'd consider gently and lovingly pushing her out the door. A dose of reality for her isn't a bad thing.

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Bern,

Don't leave the house, you haven't done anything wrong. Pack a suitcase of her stuff and put it by the door when she gets home. Maybe she will get the hint. Like doodler said, lovingly push her out the door.


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Originally Posted by Bern19
She was pretty hot and mentioned something about exposing the fact that she caought me mastubating to porn

If I had a nickel for every WAW that did that I would....................

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Quote
I handed her a note that I had written explaining that she had crossed a boundary that I clearly verbalized and that I needed her to move out of our home.


You still don't understand boundaries. You can't force her to leave the home. So, that kind of backfired, IMO.

Quote
So, it’s 4 days till Christmas, do I move out or wait till after the holiday? I want some space, but I have two kids that are young enough to still bank on Christmas as a special time of year. My youngest still believes in Santa... I don’t know what to do... any advice?


You should have thought this out before you decided to tell her stuff you won't or can't back up.

Don't leave the house four days before Christmas.
Focus on your children.
Stop interacting with her. She does not care about your feelings, so STFU.
After Christmas, you need to decide what you will do.


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Yeah, after reading my post and taking 10 minutes to think about it, I shouldn’t have said anything. I had a few of my boundaries defined at our previous MC session where I clearly said I won’t stay with someone that lies to me, and I won’t share her with him in anyway. I was ready to enforce those two weeks ago. Now I look at the calendar and realize that if she won’t leave, I’ll have to... do I really want to leave my home 4 days before Christmas? Absolutely not. So she’s been blowing up my phone with bug long texts about how she’s sorry, but I did this or I did that and that’s what led her down this road. I was going to ignore her, but finally replied that I’ll talk to her again after Christmas. At that point one of us will need to clear out to get some space.


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She was pretty hot and mentioned something about exposing the fact that she caought me mastubating to porn I’d i out her to our friends... then she left.
Next time she threatens this, take out your phone, call your friend, and tell them you've watched porn. Threat extinguished.

I mean who gives a rat's rear end if you watched porn? I watch porn sometimes, so what? I have a penis and sometimes it convinces me to watch some porn. Big freakin deal.


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Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
Quote
She was pretty hot and mentioned something about exposing the fact that she caought me mastubating to porn I’d i out her to our friends... then she left.
Next time she threatens this, take out your phone, call your friend, and tell them you've watched porn. Threat extinguished.

I mean who gives a rat's rear end if you watched porn? I watch porn sometimes, so what? I have a penis and sometimes it convinces me to watch some porn. Big freakin deal.



One time I was listening to Chuck Swindoll and he mentioned he had hosted a retreat for seminary students. He sent out a survey before the last day of the seminar asking some behavioral questions, one of them being if they had watched porn while at the retreat. It was an anonymous survey so I'm sure they felt there was no harm in being honest, because no one would know how any particular person had responded. Anyway guess how many admitted to having watched porn while on the retreat? You ready? 100%. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. Doh, busted. So yeah, if 100% of seminary students on a religious retreat are watching porn, then what percentage of the general male population do you think watches it? Finding out someone has watched porn is not exactly an earth-shattering revelation these days.


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Please start a new thread and link your two threads together. Many thanks!


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