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#2794514 06/07/18 12:49 AM
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Cadet new thread created as requested. Can you link my priors?

Steve, W silence is like water off this duck. I will not give up HOPE! (Thanks Stander!)



previous threads
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2791963#Post2791963

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...806#Post2788806

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2786324#Post2786324

Last edited by Cadet; 06/07/18 01:19 AM. Reason: Link

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Stander that is sad that your W did it to try to help you. For me seems at least pretty clear cause and effect. W was open prior to ring removal, but once off W flipped to what I am dealing with now.

Last edited by Cadet; 06/07/18 02:46 AM. Reason: restored post

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Originally Posted By: ballast
Stander that is sad that your W did it to try to help you. For me seems at least pretty clear cause and effect. W was open prior to ring removal, but once off W flipped to what I am dealing with now.


Yeah the mind of a WAS is a strange place. I mean she said it was to "help" me, but really it was to help herself. She wanted out of the M but wanted me to do all the hard work, so let's treat H like crap and maybe he'll buy in and initiate the D.

Yes your W flipped to what she is now, but why are you so convinced she can't flip back again? Do you flip your light switch and think "well great, that's it, my lights went out and will never go back on again" grin Women CAN and DO change their minds and then change them back again. I've heard and read so many stories about WAS's doing a 180 but it was the LBS that decided not to recon. You simply don''t know the outcome. None of us do. I've been in a new R for over 3 years now, but I can't tell you where that R will be in 6 months or a year. I mean I think I know, but she could go rogue like my ex did or die in a car accident, or who knows what. What I learned from my experience is to continue to let people into your life and love them, but always maintain your independence too. You need to be able to change and adapt as life throws crap sandwiches at you, because it WILL.


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Honestly W getting so ticked off at me taking off my ring surprised me. She is a very stubborn, nothing bothers her personality outwardly and she sells that as how she is like a badge of honor. BUT there IS a softer emotional side within her but her showing it would invalidate the tough girl persona everyone thinks she has. So my gut is that it would be very hard for her to change her mind as she has made her decision to leave and changing back would make her feel all who know her think she was not as strong and determined and right as she thinks she is.


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Well LOL the silence continues...and I even said hello! The trauma caused me to go out for beers and dinner!


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The silent treatment is a phase, in order to protect W or its controlling or ........

Don't mind read on it. Just brush it off with humour, it's childish at best. She is going to Co parent, it will be court mandated.

Just treat it as you might a sulky teenager.

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V,

Thank you! Yep, like I say last night I just closed the door behind W as she left and then went out and had a great dinner. Ended up bumping into some of her family who asked me to join them and had a greater time than expected.

Sad really, childish as you say. Protection from what...meh. W wanted this situation. As she has it now, why so miserable then...anyway I paid it no mind. Her acting like this has been great for my detaching.


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So two questions on scenarios...

1) A nephew graduates next week and there's a party at her sister's house. Given our current status I don't think I'm going to attend. I don't want our sitch to make anyone/anything uncomfortable during what should only be a happy event. No idea if she would even go.

2) I've been spending time out with my parents. My family is a great source of strength and support for me during this time. Would you think she would think me a wuss for doing so, a stronger man would not take off to his folks, but rather would stay at his place and GAL/enjoy?


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If the party is at her sisters house I probably wouldnt go, unless the family or sister would really like you there. Even in that case I would only go if you could go and be upbeat and positive and not focused on your sitch.

Regarding the second one, that is just silly. Of course you should be relying on your family at this point in time. Dont mindread what she might be thinking or not. If spending time with your parents makes you stronger and happier that is exactly what you need to be doing. I know that I am talking on the phone with my parents who live 10 hours away, nearly every other day for similar reasons. They are my rocks. For me that is the epitome of GALing, you are getting on with your life and spending time with people who make you happy and feel secure.


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[censored] when you get pics of your D from Ws family and you can not be there with them...


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Good morning all...I'm grieving today. Nothing in particular beyond dealing with the continual pain of this roller coaster I'm on. I had a good weekend of GAL, went to the gym this morning (forced myself). I'm just battling against depression I feel and the constant unrelenting angst of losing all that I most loved and cherished and feeling like I failed my W. These days I feel even more like just curling up in bed and staying away from the world. Father's day upcoming has me emotional. So happy that I'll have D with me, but so terribly distraught in thinking that I've failed her by not being able to give her mom what she needed in a MR and therefore a happy family with both parents present full time.

At night these days I wear my ring and other jewelry that my W gave me over the years. How proud I've been of those symbols of our love and commitment to each other. Cried like a baby and begged God for his help and mercy. I'm living such a dichotomy these days. On the one hand I can and do see at times some light towards my future, but at the same time I grieve like I've never done before for a love and life that means everything to me. At close to 4 months in I know folks will say I'm very early days yet in this process...just hard to have hope (but Stander I'm trying and sticking to your words of encouragement!).

W will not even acknowledge me presently. Since taking my ring off, this has been the normal. It pains me terribly that we are as we are, but I know her silence is her action based on her feelings and as that's out of my control, I simply go on. I don't know what else to else beyond I'm in terrible pain like many others of you who've found yourself here. I pray that for all of us God will continue to bless us with his grace and have mercy and comfort on our suffering hearts.


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ballast, the dual emotions in these sitches are real. No way around it. As others said the grieving is part of the process, and it is better to go through it rather than around it.

ballast, I do wonder what it was you were trying to accomplish with the ring removal. Most expert related to anti-divorce say that as the LBS you should keep your ring on. Were you looking for a reaction from your wife with that decision? You appear to be opposed to the D so why would you do something that acknowledge the break up of your marriage?

I know opinions are mixed on this board about wearing or not wearing. And I know many others suggest that if your spouse removes theirs than you should too. I disagree with that vehemently. If you are married you should wear it until the time when you are no longer married.

Anyway, hang in there, it gets better. You need to realize that while you made mistakes in the MR you were still there. When the going gets tough it is no excuse to leave the MR, or to step outside of it either. So your W is more to blame for the problems currently in the MR than you are. Despite what she says (remember: believe NOTHING they say and only 1/2 of what they do).


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Steve...what would you think if I wanted to put my ring back on?

And yes I did NOT leave, I would fight for our MR if I could...actually scratch that...I would work committedly with W to make a new R for the two of us that we could both be happy with.


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I would say put it back on. You are still married. A decision like that (removing it) doesn't have to be permanent.


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Any thoughts/ideas on positive/negative effects? Seem wishy washy? Desperate?


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Ballast,

I am in a similar situation. When I first left the house, I took off my ring and left it on the dresser in the bedroom. It was a dumb decision - an attempt at emotional manipulation. Later on my W told me that she couldnt bear looking at it so she put it away. Now I dont know where it is. I just left on a 2 month trip without it.

I think you should do whatever feels best for you. Dont do it to get a reaction out of her. If you feel better with it on, wear it. If not, leave it. Dont focus on her reaction.


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Thank you Davide...when I took it off it was about me seeing how I felt about having it off. I was so trapped mentally into being needy, wanting to save the MR that I held tightly to it, likely too tightly. I had to take it off for a while to "breathe" if that makes sense. I had to acknowledge that the MR I knew was over and I had to allow myself a chance to experience the possible future of my life, not by dating or anything like that, but removing the ring allowed me to accept that there will be a future for me with or without my W. Thing is last week I found myself putting it back on and saying "It Matters". I AM a man who stands for marriage and believes in commitment and doing whatever the hard work of marriage requires. H**L I have not even had the chance to do/try the hard work with my W!


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ballast,

Putting your ring on or taking it off is secondary to your demeanor around W. If you take it off and keep pursuing her it really doesn't matter that it's off. If you put it back on but "act as if" your life is grand and it doesn't matter what she does, she's free to do whatever she wants and it doesn't impact your emotional state, then it doesn't matter if its on. Does that make sense?

Whether you wear it or not is subordinate to your state of attachment and pursuit. If you put it back on, she *may* want to engage you in a conversation about why you did it, and that is a danger zone, because you don't want to engage in R talks, and you don't want to be intimate with her and share your feelings -- that's not where you are right now.

Regarding your depression, please consider talking to your doctor about SSRI's. In my sitch I had two bomb days three years apart. The first time I just gutted my way through it, the second time I talked to my doctor and got a prescription for anti-anxiety meds and an SSRI. I just went on a very low dose but it made a big difference for me. It wasn't a "happy pill", it didn't change my personality. All it did was prevent me from brooding. You still have negative thoughts but you don't obsess or spiral when they occur, you move on much more easily.

If your leg was broken, you'd certainly entertain taking some pain killers. If your heart is broken you should do that same, or at least consider it.

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ACC...thank you for replying!

Yes what you say makes perfect sense. I have not ring on or off been pursuing. I simply want to STAND!

Point taken on if I put it back on triggering a convo. Definitely a danger zone. Had already been thinking about that. Had only gotten to a man can change his mind OR a man can make a mistake. Best I got so far.

I do hear you on the depression as well. I will consider it, although I do feel while I have my sad moments, with the passing of time I continue to get just that bit stronger each day.


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help...so I get an email..."we both know you've moved on" meaning me...how do I best reply?


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I have not EVER wanted anyone but her and our family back together.


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Originally Posted By: ballast
help...so I get an email..."we both know you've moved on" meaning me...how do I best reply?


Ignore it. The fact that she thinks that is perfect!!This is what you want. As hoosjim just told another user, you are never more attractive to her than when you are walking away. This proves your DBing is working.


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but good lord I so want to refute that!!! I feel like I'm losing her by letting it go...


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Originally Posted By: ballast
but good lord I so want to refute that!!! I feel like I'm losing her by letting it go...


Did you ever try to grab and hold on to a wet bar of soap?

The harder you squeeze the harder it is to hold.

Letting GO is counter intuitive but it is the only way you might get her back.


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Originally Posted By: ballast
help...so I get an email..."we both know you've moved on" meaning me...how do I best reply?


Is that all she said?


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Agree with ovrrnbw, what else did she say? What was the context? Giving advice without context in this scenario would be dangerous. Themeatically I agree that this is what you want her to believe provided she actually believes that and is not just trying to make you the bad guy to displace her guilt.

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Originally Posted By: ballast
help...so I get an email..."we both know you've moved on" meaning me...how do I best reply?


Your response: Stop bothering me. I told you I'm still married. You'll have to wait.

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She added I am attempting to do the same


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Originally Posted By: ballast
She added I am attempting to do the same


Shame on you! wink

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I think it is to displace her guilt


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Honestly though maybe she really does believe it...whole thing is crazy to me


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Hey Ballast. I'm Hoosjim.

I've been around here a while, now, working on my own MR, but now i am trying to "pay forward" some of the help i have received on these boards. Some things in your sitch as you have related on here remind me a bit of mine-- you seem to imply, for instance, at least some period of spousal "neglect" which bred resentment and isolation in your W-- but... your threads seem a bit thin on details, and i notice that you don't have a quick thumbnail "profile" at the bottom as many do. Would you mind terribly providing a semi-detailed sketch of your sitch? I feel I'd be better able to provide help/support if i knew more.

In the meantime, my thoughts and prayers are with you. I know how hard and demoralizing this period can be. Hang in there, keep sending up your own prayers, and do everything you can to take care of and be the best "you" you can be!


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Hi Jim...appreciate your interest and support in my sitch!

I have updated my profile to be complete. Course the EA/PA stuff I honestly have no idea.

Semi-detailed sketch would be W and I having fun, going out, doing our thing happy prior to deciding to try and get pregnant. God's blessing we did and have a beautiful D. Pregnancy was tough for W esp weight gain/body image. Few pictures of W while pregnant. Post pregnancy weight/body image depression. Didn't want to go out, be seen. Few pictures of W with D. Connected with D fine, loves her but could not be the "happy mom". I suggested W raise this issue with OBGyn, but that did not happen. We were able to do more as D moved from baby to 3, but we spent most of our time on weekends laying low. W enjoyed us having nothing to do. Our time awake was focused on D...feed, change diaper, nap down, nap up, eat, play, etc. Groundhog Day if that makes sense. As we spent most of our awake time together when D was awake, at naps or when she went to sleep, I'd do my thing and W would do her thing. I felt that gave each of us time to do what we wanted, but rarely did we make it OUR time. So I wouldn't say I was being spousal neglectful, I honestly thought I was enabling W to have much needed time to herself. I should add during this time we went on several trips as a couple without D and had great times on each.

Anyway...BD W says "I'm unhappy and something needs to change" I get zero beyond that as far as an explanation. I did get "we are nothing but roommates" to which I did not disagree with BUT I felt many couples struggle with that once children arrive and believed it was something we could address AND would improve once D got to 4/5 and was more self sufficient and we could more easily bring her with us. Intimacy...well as said above the routine day to day...after D was down we didn't retire together.

From the beginning of physical separation at the same time as BD, W has been unwilling to want to work/try with me. As I found this site, I gave up pursuit and began to read and work on myself. A few days after W left she removed her ring and that was the end of her interest in "working on us". A few weeks ago I took my ring off and basically unleashed h*ll. Where prior to ring removal W was at least somewhat polite, afterwards W accused me of chasing after one of her GFs and basically went quiet on me. W has "developed" this belief that I'm now with an imaginary woman and therefore, I have "moved on". As provided above either W really believes this OR she is using this to portray me the bad guy in order to displace the guilt she feels. ANGER/resentment/control those are the 3 words to describe my W's behavior. Oh and no desire to talk/work/share a feeling/zippo.

I know I've missed stuff and I'm sorry for that. Trying to rehash all of what has transpired over the last few months of this roller coaster is not the easiest thing to do. At this point only starting the 4th month really, hope in what seems like a hopeless process is very difficult. The whole ring on/ring off, does she really think I've moved on, etc. Part of me from all this crazy is ready to drop the rope, put my ring back on, tell her to cut the crap on this delusional belief of someone else and let it roll and let her divorce me. The level of dysfunction I feel I subject myself to each day...meh I ain't sure it's worth it anymore.


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Hang in there Ballast. Like others have said here, you WANT her to think that you are getting on with your life (and it would be even better to truly get on with your life.) This is a rollercoaster ride, and not the fun kind. You always have the choice to say no more, I am getting off. Just make sure that you are doing it for the right reasons, and not making an emotional decision.

My W, similar to yours, has been basically incommunicado and resolute since BD. It is hard to maintain any semblance of hope in this type of scenario. All we can do is work on ourselves and hope that our model of positivity and stability, our lighthouse, attracts them back from the edge. But there are no guarantees for that. The only guarantee is that if we keep working on ourselves we will end up in a better spot than we started.

I am with you.


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Davide thank you as always for your support.

Let me be clear I.WILL.NOT.GIVE.UP! Do not have a clue what is going to happen but guess I will find out.

Just feel myself getting to a point where the whole drop the rope/let her go action is no longer me trying to force myself to make it happen, but rather her actions are forcing me to save myself first. Like she is detaching me if that makes sense.

As I say just feel like I should stand for the man I am, what I believe, whom I love, she left, I will always have my hand out to her wanting our relationship and family. If she does not, my conscience is clear, guilt free, God will not abandon me and I will prosper, I loved you sweetheart, set me free...

With you as well Davide.


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Amen. Save yourself. After that she may follow, but that is secondary.


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Alright so I would prefer not to provide specific details, but I have further reason to believe she really does think I'm seeing someone else even though that's utterly and completely false. I haven't talked/texted/done a thing towards ANY other lady. The only thing I've done is take my ring off. Part of me wants to call out this belief as a complete lie, keep my integrity as a man who wants his marriage and keep my ring on, case closed on this. But...the other folks around here probably think this is a good thing even though I can't see it for the life of me. Allowing this lie to continue as truth is very tough for a moral man like myself.


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ballast, the truth is the truth. Someone believing something other than truth doesn't change the truth. NGS says "I HAVE TO CARE WHAT EVERYONE THINKS ABOUT ME". When really what anyone or anyones think is irrelevant to the actual truth.

Don't confuse truth with what people believe. It is very rare that it matches and hand wringing over it is useless.


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Yes Steve very true. I guess in this instance it's just my desire for MR and feeling like if W believes I've moved on and I do not dispute this, she believes it to be true and so I lose more ground with her than I gain. Although I can see very clearly the gain in attraction as Jim and others have previously commented on. Torn is all between the moral and the desire for the MR.


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Originally Posted By: ballast
Yes Steve very true. I guess in this instance it's just my desire for MR and feeling like if W believes I've moved on and I do not dispute this, she believes it to be true and so I lose more ground with her than I gain. Although I can see very clearly the gain in attraction as Jim and others have previously commented on. Torn is all between the moral and the desire for the MR.


Youve heard that DBing is counter-intuitive. Well here you go. You have to do what is unnatural to you in order to save your MR. By all means if you are in a verbal conversation with you and she says something you can calmly and directly say "that isn't true". But then let it go, don't be insistent, don't overly protest. Just state it once and move on. If she continues to push just stick to "that's not true" and move on.


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So I need help/advice...do WW go through an extreme anger phase? I caught h8ll when dropping D at Ws place even though I asked if it was ok and she said it was. I have never experienced anger like this from anyone I have ever dated. D was crying, it was a terrible scene. Sandi/Jim/Acc somebody tell me if this is normal


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Sure, some get very angry. The WW basically blames her H for all that's wrong in her life, and he is target of her anger.


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How about trying to control to whom her LBH can speak to? W is trying to create a narrative where she is the victim and then trying to keep me from any contact with her family so as to allow in her mind at least justification for her actions. When you see the real rage in the woman who was your W...so sad although it did for me at least push me further towards letting her go. To make our D cry...NO that is completely unacceptable. Thank you Sandi! I have never experienced anger as intense as I have from my W.


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With every WW comes various degrees of anger, entitlement, manipulation, deception, etc. Although WW's are similar in mindset and even behavior..... their background/history, personality, experiences,.........causes individuality, just as with any other classification.

Just bear in mind that waywardness comes from her own volition. Nothing is forcing her to behave badly. You do not have to stand there and take her wrath. People know who they can unleash their anger upon, and who they can't. Know what I mean?


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Thank you Sandi that makes sense. In the large amount of reading I have done of what you have posted I just did not get a real sense of the anger I might face nor anything on WW desire to control the story so to say. I get that each will customize beyond some core behaviors.

Yes understood. I took more than I probably should have but I was consoling our D who did not want me to leave. As I say these actions do help free me from wanting anything to do with her. After I left as she is known to do I then got a text where she threw some anger at me. Saying we were no good for each other, she will file immediately, whatever she could. She probably was hoping I would trigger on those but I ignored them and then as is her pattern after the initial spew, she changed back to being a normal conversation. Believe none of what she says, feel like I have done a good job remembering that rule.

I am leaving her be but I do wonder every day where my sitch will go next. These random anger events can sure make the week a long one! Thankfully my focus is fully on my D and myself. Appreciate your reply!


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Morning vent/reflection...well W and I managed to work out a new 4-3 schedule for D. When I'm not traveling for business I'll see her more. It's going to be tough on all of us though. There are no winners in this entire process. Feeling like pushing this stuff through..I stressed about it, cried out to God why we had to go through this pain, but knew we had to and so did it. Tough having any belief in hope as by taking these steps, D seems more and more assured, but I've read in other threads where many times this stuff is kinda of like required to get the sitch to where it needs to be. Don't understand that, but can only say that I'm facing head on the challenges life presents as they come. I have no option really to go around them anyway.

As I said yesterday W spewed certain doom and gloom. Toughest part when hearing such things feeling like there's something I can DO. I'm thankful that I did not react, but I do know when "the bullets start flying" so to speak I'm not performing as optimally as I could be when we get like that and I hope to improve myself. With further detachment and more work on not fearing her, I think I can improve. Staying calm in the storm.

Hoping for some peace the rest of the week. The emotional toll this takes on a person...thankfully I force myself out of bed and to the gym and I have been sleeping lights out. It will be wonderful to have my D with me for Father's Day. Trips to the beach and to visit some friends with her will be so good for my soul.


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Ballast this may help I read recently that- When things seem to be at their worst it allows for God to work in a miraculous way so that he may enrich you with gifts far greater than you can imagine. In the same breath remember that God will reveal all the answers in His time not yours. Be patient and stay the course. Blessings!


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Thank you for those words Wlf! I said to my W in this process we all lose. She disagreed, but I do think that with us configuring our lives consistent to what being D'd would look like, that it will highlight to her what she can expect if we go through the process.

As folks say if you are going through H*ll keep going. I know that God will not abandon me and I continue to pray for him to help me be patient, accept his time, keep my heart open and find HIS way into my wife's heart/mind.

I wish the same for you as you've wished for me!


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Quote:
Yes understood. I took more than I probably should have but I was consoling our D who did not want me to leave. As I say these actions do help free me from wanting anything to do with her. After I left as she is known to do I then got a text where she threw some anger at me. Saying we were no good for each other, she will file immediately, whatever she could. She probably was hoping I would trigger on those but I ignored them and then as is her pattern after the initial spew, she changed back to being a normal conversation. Believe none of what she says, feel like I have done a good job remembering that rule.


I'm glad you are feeling freer.

Do you want to know how to stop some of that text rage.......or even when she's saying that type of stuff to your face? Agree with her. When she says you are not good for each other, you could reply with something like, "I agree". B/c right now, you aren't good for one another. The problem with a lot of H's, is they want to counter everything the W says, and it infuriates her.

Let me give a longer example.

WW: "I don't love you anymore".

You: "Okay, I can accept and agree that you don't".

WW: "I want out of this M. I deserve happiness".

You: "We both deserve to be happy, and currently, this is not working for either of us".

WW: "So you are saying you want a D?".

You: "I'm saying I don't want this kind of MR".

WW: "Fine! You can expect to get the D papers".

You: "Do whatever you need to do".

(She may, or may not proceed with D papers).

Now, the above dialog may scare some LBH's and think they have signed their M away. Truth is, their MR is already gone. The only hope is to have a new one. Maybe it will even be with this gal, but you don't tell her so. She has to have time to work through her issues, and it is going to take a long time. What this type of dialog does, is take some of the wind out of her sail (hopefully). I mean, when you agree with her......would she continue to blast you away? IDK, if she has anger management issues, she just might.

Here's the thing.......if she wants a D so badly that she has turned into a raging lunatic, what are you accomplishing if you try to argue and tell her why she shouldn't get a D? And, if you try to persuade/convince her to give it another chance.....she's just going to fight you that much harder. She sees you as her #1 enemy. I have seen how agreeing with the WW often makes her relax and end the fierce fighting..... and some have even reconsidered the decision to D. At least, it takes some of the heat out of their interactions.

I hope this will not confuse you about standing up for yourself. If it does, let me know and I'll try to do a better job at explaining.

Let me say a word or two about the scene in front of your little girl. My son went through it with his little one, and it is gut wrenching, to see your children being torn apart. If the mom is the one who is causing the scene over you being there to console the child......it's probably best just to hug the child and leave. B/c the longer you tarry, the louder and angrier mom is going to get.......and the more upset it will make the child. Mom doesn't like it b/c the child wants to go with you, and she's just trying to make you get out of thete. Can you see how staying only makes it worse in the long run? Unless you fear for the child's safety, my advice is leave quickly. Things will calm, once you are gone.

Here's another thing I've learned about children coping with the parent that is leaving. If at all possible, it usually is less stressful if the other parent comes to pick up the child from your place, if the child is going to spend the night with the other parent. There may still be a few tears, but they seem to do better if they are the ones going bye-bye. Also, if the daddy drops by the family home at the child's bedtime, it tends to be more traumatic to see him leaving right before time to go to sleep. (Of course this has the same effect if it is mom dropping by to say good night to the child).

Asking the child if she is going to miss mom/daddy......or things along those lines, seems cruel to me. Who wouldn't cry? My MIL was never contented to just kiss the grand kids and tell them bye. She had to keep on & on until she had them crying & begging to go or stay with her. It would frustrate the living daylights out of me. As if she delighted in seeing them begging to be with her! What kind of an rational adult does that to a child?

I don't think parents should make phone calls to say goodnight when the child is getting ready for bed, either. There is something psychologial there that stirs up those insecure or lonely feelings for the child. Instead of reassuring the child that daddy will see her soon, it just reminds her that mom and daddy are separated and one of her parents won't be there tonight. My advice is to call before dinner, or soon thereafter.......if at all possible.


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Sandi I do get what you say about agreeing with her to help diffuse the situation. Thankfully I knew better than to try and counter, but I see where agreeing could have helped. If/when the next time this occurs, I will remember that.

I have long ago accepted that the MR we had is dead and gone. And from reading and LEARNING much of what you have written, I understand W will have to process her feelings on her time. It is not for me to involve/intercede/whatever into it. And no it does not confuse me, I should continue to stand up for myself while fully accepting the reality of her feelings and what that means for the future of my life.

W to me at least does not express concern on the impact of our sitch on D. Thank God that yesterday was the first and only time so far where D became directly upset. D knows something is up and she is feeling and expressing it. When with me, she misses W and I know when with W she misses me. I will never be disrespectful of W to D. Only by her labor and God's blessing was it possible for me to be a father to such a wonderful baby girl. I understand what you are saying about not tarrying. Leaving quickly would have shortened the trauma time. Again I will remember that if this situation arises again.

There will come a time shortly where W and I will pick D up direct from daycare without seeing each other. Definitely makes sense that it would be easier for the child to leave than the parent. My dropping her off and leaving I won't do anymore unless absolutely required because I can see the value in what you say. Thankfully I don't ask her if she will miss me and I tell her to be a good girl for Mommy. When it is she and I, at bedtime I tell her that Mommy loves her and Daddy loves her. There is nothing in this world more important than the quality of life for my D. NOTHING! And lastly, once W departs with D there is no bedtime call or communication which might increase the chances of her feeling lonely or insecure. Very hard not to have that good night, but again D's getting through this is THE most important thing.


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Quote:
Ballast this may help I read recently that- When things seem to be at their worst it allows for God to work in a miraculous way so that he may enrich you with gifts far greater than you can imagine.


Judges 7

Last edited by Cadet; 06/13/18 01:12 AM.

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Well W social media accounts now use her maiden name. That took less than 4 months. Oh well


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Originally Posted By: ballast
I said to my W in this process we all lose. She disagreed


Pretend that this is another person and explain to them why the statement above is pursuit and should have been avoided


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Acc...nothing I can say but yep, point taken. I completely just thought I was stating a shared realization. I do see the pursuit in it now that you point it out. Should be left up to her to experience and her own opinion.

The maiden name changes on social media hurt me, especially my hope. Such a small thing but it hurt for sure.


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Ballast- My W never used fb now she opened an account using her maiden name and she has not put anything in the relationship status yet. I dagger to the heart. I feel your pain. Stay strong!


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Seriously struggling today...feeling like not saying anything towards her and her anger/not talking has any chance with her to be drifting away...sandi's reflections thread really hit home with me this morning especially hearing her talk about her personal experience with TV and pillow talk over which I feel like I completely failed my W on. And now with W and I separated, nothing I can do to 180 on that. For several others that I recognize in myself I plan to work on those as best I can, but still with her not seeing me, her appreciating those I wonder if she'll be able to notice. She left, doesn't want to talk and even with that reality I'm beating myself up thinking this was all my fault. Truly felt like I was complete crap after reading that reflections thread.

I read some other sites and have some friends who say, "you need to tell her how you feel, don't let her walk without knowing how you feel". I hold against doing that, but during this point where I'm not reaching out to her and she seems completely angry and done with me...I know ACC would say it's the lack of control that's bugging me.


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Do you really think that she doesnt know how you feel?

I get the feeling of wanting to express your love, or willingness to wait for her, because I feel the same urge each and every day. But I hold off because she knows that I love her. Pushing that on her when she isnt ready for it will just push her further away.


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What Davide said 100%...


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Agreed. Davide is right. I did this exact thing. It doesnt help.


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Fourthed. Never say ILY to a WW. It only increases their disgust with you. (Sorry)

For some more detailed color on this dynamic, read Sandi2's WW threads. Over, and over, and over. And over.


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Had no intention of saying ILY. It was more on all the things I felt I did in sandi reflections thread to make her lose respect for me. As I say being real critical of myself given her complete anger and silence towards me right now.


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B,

Do not vomit your feelings all over her. That BS only works in the movies. Stop wallowing and feeling sorry for yourself for the things you did and did not do. You did the best you could based on what you observed in the past.

Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and start making a plan of action for what you can control in the FUTURE.

You are only 34 and have a full life ahead of you. What are you going to do with it?

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LH, yeah I got it and I will keep it in.
I know better, vent here safely, but keep it in check to her. Like I say she left, has not talked...seeing things I should have done better is tough and she could see them if she wanted to work with me, else a pretty lady in my future will benefit from her letting me go.

Always good to have a sandbox to vent in with friends to keep me safe!

Appreciate you all!

Last edited by Cadet; 06/14/18 11:40 AM. Reason: restored post

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Well day is almost done...not even a Happy Fathers Day text...women can be flat cruel...what did I do to deserve such complete disrespect...absolutely nothing.

I hope you other Dads with your WWs at least received some common decency for being the father of their children.


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Hey B!

The sentiment - have zero expectations - gets around quite a bit on these forums. Usually, it is in the context of doing 180s and not improving yourself, and if your partner notices, then not to have any expectations that this is going to lead to something.

I believe this is also another layer of meaning within that sentiment - build self reliance. For me, this has been one of my most important goals. I don't expect anything from W and also do not rely on her for anything. Of course you have to collaborate for co-parenting and what not, but I pretend that I am a single dad and use that mentality to plan for everything around my kids, and also my life.

In this particular case, why does it matter to you if she sent a text? Who are the most important people in your life that this day is kinda dedicated for - your children. So, why would you focus on whether or not she validates you as a good father, but rather how do your kids validate that for you. And how do they see you and what are you going to do during this day with them?

I could care less if my W says anything about it to me. I saw her today and she didn't wish me or say anything about it. Guess what - it didn't even faze me because I was having way too much fun with my kids and they were super psyched about spending all day with me doing things.

Stop focusing on her. Stop relying on her to validate you as a person, father, partner, friend etc. Develop your self reliance and self worth. If you feel your relationships need improvement as a father, friend, son etc, then focus on that and get that in order.

Honestly, stop giving 2 $hits about what she says or does not. If she had wished you or sent a text, you could've easily turned it around and said that she's being shallow and just saying things out of obligation - there's no winning here with this thinking and waiting on her. Forget her and do your thing with people who want you in their lives.


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Originally Posted By: ballast
Well day is almost done...not even a Happy Fathers Day text...women can be flat cruel...what did I do to deserve such complete disrespect...absolutely nothing.

I hope you other Dads with your WWs at least received some common decency for being the father of their children.


No offense. But you aren't her father.


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Originally Posted By: ballast
Well day is almost done...not even a Happy Fathers Day text...women can be flat cruel...what did I do to deserve such complete disrespect...absolutely nothing.

I hope you other Dads with your WWs at least received some common decency for being the father of their children.


I was commanded by WW to inform her next time i put a pull up on S3 instead of a regular diaper, as they hold less and she felt she deserves specific forewarning as such, as opposed to just checking herself, not a peep about Fathers Day though.

But like Makia said, Zero Expectations.
Women who will bail on their home and family of their 3YO Son before thinking about the impact on the child arent going to put much sentimental stock in Fathers Day im thinking.

Don't let it make you backslide, keep doing you and S3. All that matters.


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Originally Posted By: ballast
Well day is almost done...not even a Happy Fathers Day text...women can be flat cruel...what did I do to deserve such complete disrespect...absolutely nothing.


Very sorry, I know it hurts but it is also very typical of a WAS. She doesn't want to give you "the wrong idea". Right now she's afraid to do or say anything that might be construed as her reaching out to you. You're both still sorting out where you stand and how you move forward from here. At some point whether you recon or not she'll likely relax her attitude and be more like her old self. It took my ex a couple of years to come to accept she can wish me a happy father's day or birthday without worrying about me wondering if it was an invitation to recon, LOL! I know it sounds silly but that's how they think.


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Maika, Steve, Orange...thank you for your replies. Bottom line is that I respected her enough to wish her a Happy Mother's Day, thought she would have enough respect for me as D's father to do the same. Guess not.

I definitely get each of your points. I guess I had an expectation and clearly should not have. Actions like that, meh hope is hard. As you all say I'll just keep focusing on myself and D and keep on going. It is what is.


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Thank you Stander! With me having D this weekend, first thing on Saturday W hit me up about needing some information for our car insurance to split up. For sure she knew by doing that, she would likely get me thinking about us and not having fun with D. I simply replied back with the requested answer and moved on to having a great time with my D. This whole "sorting out" if you say that's what it is, right now it seems like passive/aggressive (vindictiveness) from W. I had heard this anger was a phase...just trying to keep an even keel and keep a LONG TERM perspective. Dealing with the day to day negatives is a no win game. Haven't seen an UP on the roller coaster in some time anyway.


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There is no hope for me and W. We had a new arrangement planned for watching of D. It was to start with me, but now W wants to start. As I am trying to take the higher ground I acquiesced. Bottom line though her anger...I simply want to be done with her now. Dealing with the sheer rage/hatred from W each day is no way to live. I'm envious of the other LBHs on here who at least have some degree of civility from the WW especially when it comes to matters of co-parenting. I've never seen/dealt with an ex so completely consumed by anger as she is.


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Go Greystone my friend.


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LOL...so I have NO IDEA what that means!! :-)


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Look it up. Be as boring as a grey stone. show no emotions. give no reactions. Stick to yes, no, Who what were and when. Only when necessary. you dont need to deal with anger and abuse.


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Thanks Orange...THAT I get!


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B, my W was consumed by rage and anger all the way through. What worked was coming to an understanding about the kids stuff and then following it. I also became hella proactive about the kids and co parenting stuff and would keep her in the loop and vice versa. But I did it very business like and kept it that way. And about the anger, I just got out of the way man. I disappeared as much as I could.

So, my take is, get everything hammered out as soon as possible and then be proactive and keep at it. And then get out of her way and stay as dark as possible. Then she has no avenue to rage at you. And if she does, and if it isn't about the kids, the validate and get out of the way.

I am not saying it's easy. None whatsoever. But with their rage, they can only project it out on to you if you are there engaging with them. Once you refuse to play that game, they gotta handle their own business and figure it out. It took months, but W has mellowed out. Also, you start learning how to stand up for yourself and handle all the rage. Once she realizes it doesn't have the desired effect on you, it will stop.


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Originally Posted By: ballast
Bottom line though her anger...I simply want to be done with her now. Dealing with the sheer rage/hatred from W each day is no way to live. I'm envious of the other LBHs on here who at least have some degree of civility from the WW especially when it comes to matters of co-parenting. I've never seen/dealt with an ex so completely consumed by anger as she is.


My ex never did the rage thing but it does happen a lot and it does sound absolutely miserable. This is tough enough to go through without that! Sometimes they do it to "help you move on" and if that's the case it will get better with time. But sometimes they are just a B. Hopefully it's the former and not the latter!


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Let me be clear on this. WW (waywards) normally show no respect, walkaways are different.

Don't confuse the two wayward and walkaway. You need to know which you are dealing with.

Rage is about CONTROL not anger. It's abusive and manipulative.

If you had a two year old throwing a tantrum you would know what to do. Children grow out of tantrums which they thrash to get their own way.

Seeing a fully grown adult rage is terrifying and hilarious at the same time.

Don't kid yourself it is nasty and intended deliberately to intimidate. I recorded the G in this mode and applied for a non mol based on it. It's nuts and crazy loco.

As Maika said get out of the way and as Orange clearly stated grey rock is a good tactic. Also Google BIFF and NC.

Stay safe.

V


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V...so I have no idea if W has an EA/PA which means I do not know if she is WW or WAS. I would assume WW. There was no abuse or anything besides W saying I am unhappy. I have gotten ZERO from W since beyond high selfishness and desire to control whom I talk to within her family.

Last edited by Cadet; 06/20/18 09:33 AM. Reason: restored post

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Cadet little help on a missing post?


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Anger and rage are the WAW' of justifying their unjustifiable action. Whether it is an EA, PA, or just being tired of being a W and mother, for most doing that pleasantly feels wrong.

My take on WWs is a bit different than sandi's and V's. All are WAW's, some are also wayward. DBing can work in both cases though certain tactics have to be adjusted. But you still need to GAL, 180, detach and be the S only a fool would leave. Oh and that last one includes reclaiming respect.


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Steve/all...yep I agree with you. It's all a defense mechanism to beat down other more vulnerable feelings of sadness/fear/etc that they don't want to face. Better to cast/project resentment/false accusations onto the LBH than to face the feelings deep within their self conscious that tell them what they have done they should not have done.

I'm sure I was embellishing a bit on the anger/rage. It feels way worse than it is, but the daily "what's gonna come today" gets tiring. As I say W continually doing that does very much help to move me forward and detach. I mean nobody wants to deal with mess like that all the time no matter how much I may love her.

Stepping back from us I can see that she is acting textbook to what many of you have said she would act like. Operating purely from emotion, spewing as she feels the need, creating false realities to make me the bad guy. Exactly as many of you told me. I know I'm only into the 4th month, but I kind of have a clarity of the WW tornado within which I'm existing. There's not the panic there once was inside me, although detaching is a continual process for sure.

I feel pretty good all things considered. At this point I would still be interested to R especially as we have not given anything in what was our MR a single minute of serious discussion since BD. At least get it all on the table and exhaust all options. BUT honestly I'm ok with the future without her as well now. I think SHE has pushed me that way more so than me myself doing it. I just know I don't deserve any of the crazy that's come out of her mouth so being set free would be a blessing if she keeps on as she is now. As I heard once "when it comes to you or her you will make a decision". Anyway that's me now...trying to keep hope for whatever way that means and roll on along.


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So I was reading the following post that sandi put up within the last few days. Given my sitch where we are separated and W has little/no respect for me what chance/how can the work I do on myself and my desire command her respect come about? I mean you read what sandi writes below and for an LBH in my sitch it sounds completely hopeless. Curious for experienced folks on here, perhaps sandi herself to weigh in.

Sandi's post:

That's a valid question. It would be interesting to hear a round table discussion on the subject from a group of former WW's. When I try to put it into words, it starts getting more complexed. So, bear with me here.

I feel it is highly unlikely for her to "wake up", without those experiences you mentioned. I have observed this type of situation for a long time even before I knew the psychology (if you will) behind it, or experienced it myself. I can't recall a case where the WW came to her senses and returned to her former self......in that MR with that LBH. B/c it takes self effort, self discipline, cooperation, and in most cases.... some type of counseling or accountability. It is a process to bring your mindset back to a healthy mental place. There is no snapping out of it. We may inadvertly use that word, but it is not an action that is suddenly done & over. I am very suspicious of any wayward W who claims anything "suddenly". She didn't become wayward overnight (even if some H's think so) and she can't complete her way back over night.

The cases I remember where a WW was involved, the couple would divorce, and she'd move on to another man. If she was lucky, she would marry an alpha type who took none of her b.s. and held her feet to the fire. I've seen these WW's respect these second or third H and not have the problems as with the first H who she disrespected. Of course, this can get deeper and I could talk about the type that is wayward with all their H's in every MR......but I'll spare you.

I think you really want to know about a WW who stays with the betrayed/disrespected H, and she doesn't have consequences, or experience loss.....etc. does she just kind of ease back into her former self? I don't believe so. I wished it was like the movies, where she sees how good a man her H is, and fall in love all over again. But she can't, as long as the disrespect goes unresolved. That's why we say, you can't nice back a .WW. At best, the couple would live together as roommates and he would settle for whatever level friendship (if you could even call it such) that she offered on a "good mood" day. The H would basically give up sex for the remainder of his life, and try to endure a woman who does not respect him........all in the name of keeping his family together for the sake of his kids.

Let me add this part, since we are talking about possibilities. I was raised in a strong Christian environment and M into the same type of family. I was very active in Church, but there was a little part of my heart that struggled throughout my entire M. I would try to forgive my H, and go on.....but the feelings of disrespect was constantly gaining. We had been suffering in several areas for many years. Long story shortened........I had an Internet A. In time, I begin to see little red flags in OM and I needed someone to talk to about it. One night I "accidentally" found my way to this board, and there were just the right people who were able to get my attention. I give them and this board a lot of credit for helping me to get my eyes opened. However, I also give credit and much thanks to God. I can look back and see how the timing of things all fell into place.......and I just had to make the decision to "do the right thing", based on my personal values & beliefs. Even after making that decision to end my A and start showing respect for my H, it took me nearly two years before I could work through my fantasy issues and resentment/disrespect issues. This is a lot of stuff to process, and most LBH's just have no clue and think she should just "snap" back.

There is no "snapping back". It is a long, trying, and painful process for her. Want to know why? Everything about her waywardness was built on feelings/emotions/fantasy........mostly negative/inappropriate. Waywardness is an act of volition, it is never forced on anyone against their will. When the WW experiences something that makes her see herself in true light of day,........she cannot wait around on feelings to guide her or she'll likely stay stuck. She has to make decisions based on the right thing to do.......and from her own free will. It is so hard b/c her feelings are not cooperating with the right thing to do. Unless, and until, she experiences true remorse, her heart can't open up for positive feelings for her H. She has to completely let go of all the resentment over the past, and she has to intentionally show respectful behavior for her H before her loving feelings catch up. It's easy when we fall in love the first time around. We have all those wonderful feelings floating around in us. When we are working our way back from waywardness, we are more likely to find ourselves feeling nothing for our spouse........and it's scary. Not being able to have her feelings return for her H is the scarest thing for a WW, when she's considering staying in the M. The feelings can return! But she's got to work through all those main issues first.

Anyway, I did suffer some those things you mentioned, but not nearly as much as a lot of WW's. That's where I have to give thanks to God and the people who gave me the information I needed. I think it was a combination of the right information and my faith that really got me back on track. Without the understanding of forgiveness being an act of grace, and knowing I could never be at peace with God until I did repent for my A and I did forgive my H for the past.........I just don't think I would have pulled out of it without a lot of effort on my part. B/c it is an act of volition....going into the waywardness and coming out of it. FWIW, it's a lot easier going in than coming out! I had a lot of stubborn pride, and that's why it took me nearly two years. I'm not saying it takes that long for every person.....but it is a process.

Wow! IDK if I answered your question or not.....but I said a lot. Let me give this word of what I hope is encouragement. At the base of waywardness lies disrespect. If you are going to remain in a M with a WW, you have to hold her feet to the fire about showing you respect. You can't help what she thinks/feels.....but you don't take her outward show of disrespect for you and the MR. If there is ever hope things will change......it will come by you commanding (not demanding) respect as her H and as the head of the family. Make the needed changes if you have NGS......b/c you can change a lot. Set boundaries and carry through with enforcing consequences if they are dishonored.


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From Sandi's post:

If you are going to remain in a M with a WW, you have to hold her feet to the fire about showing you respect. You can't help what she thinks/feels.....but you don't take her outward show of disrespect for you and the MR. If there is ever hope things will change......it will come by you commanding (not demanding) respect as her H and as the head of the family. Make the needed changes if you have NGS......b/c you can change a lot. Set boundaries and carry through with enforcing consequences if they are dishonored.

Can someone provide examples of what/how a non-in-house separated LBH goes about doing the above?


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Bump for same question.


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"Can someone provide examples of what/how a non-in-house separated LBH goes about doing the above?"

I am not sure why there is a difference? The only difference is that the interactions are less often. But no matter what your circumstances, the point is to follow sandi's advice WHENEVER you have the opportunity.

I wrote about this the other day. LBHs always think the other situation is better. If they are inhouse S'd they talk about how much easier it would be to be truly S'd. If they are really S'd then they think it would be easier to be in-house S'd.

The truth is there is no difference except the amount of interaction you have. More is both a blessing and curse. you have more opportunity to show her your GAL, 180s, and detachment. However, those things become more difficult due to having to deal with her a lot more often. Less is both a blessing and a curse. Detachment becomes easier, but you have less opportunities to show her your changes.

In the end you still need to be GAL, 180ing, detaching, and being the best ballast that you can be! Do that 24/7, and whenever you are interacting with her she will take notice.


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Steve, yep I do get that each scenario has it's pluses and minuses. I would not trade being physically separated for in house. I honestly believe that would be much more emotionally taxing.

It's just if you are physically separated and if it's a prerequisite as sandi provides that the LBH needs to hold the WW's feet to the fire in order for her to maybe gain back some respect for him. If she doesn't see/interact with him, no matter how needed that is, the LBH can't make it happen. Hope that makes sense on why I asked.


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It does, but you do have interaction with her. And will for the next 15 years (coparents). So you command respect in any interaction you have. You do that by shutting down any conversation that she starts getting disrespectful in. You do that by projecting confidence at every interactions. No sadness, woe is me, nor depression. CONFIDENT. PRESENT. PLEASANT. PLEASED. CONTENT.

Those are what you project.


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Originally Posted By: ballast
So I was reading the following post that sandi put up within the last few days. Given my sitch where we are separated and W has little/no respect for me what chance/how can the work I do on myself and my desire command her respect come about? I mean you read what sandi writes below and for an LBH in my sitch it sounds completely hopeless.


Well in reading through Sandi's post I've got to say that as usual she is right on target. That is the uphill battle an LBS faces. This is why we stress a few things-

1. You are not trying to go back to the old M, it is dead and gone. You are trying to build a new R with her.

2. PATIENCE. It took a long time for your W to become a WAS and it will take a long time for her to come out of that.

3. TIME and SPACE. Nothing you do is going to affect her directly. By changing yourself you can affect her INDIRECTLY. And that takes time. You've got to become someone she DOES respect. You do that by getting in touch with being a man again. We all start out alpha, and married life makes us very beta. So you get back in touch with your alpha side.

As far as it being completely hopeless, again I will turn to my buddy's story to demonstrate it is not. His W was a textbook WAS/ WW. Left him in disgust, wanted nothing to do with him, it was over, didn't even want to talk. They split up the house and business and she moved in with OM. Hopeless, right? Yet they are back together and have been for several years and have a stronger M than ever before. I have a few other personal examples too, but the point is there is ALWAYS hope.


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Stander, yes I mean the uphill battle she portrays...chances of an LBS like me NOT divorcing are slim to none. And then if I do divorce, not to say that folks like your friend don't come around, but by then at what cost? It's commentary like sandi provides that really hits home to me that at best most likely I could be in the future with her post-D, but anything changing pre-D is highly unlikely. The old MR is dead I know that and accept it, heck at this point any R with her is basically the same. Patience, time, space and acceptance are the things within my control. The whole we started out alpha...eh we all started out slate clean, now we are old news. There are too many men that I see who are married to loving women and in no way are those men alpha. Anyway...the whole thing is just discouraging to me. The best (more like only thing) I can do is just to forget her and move on for myself. I appreciate everyone's comments on it...just frustrated but realistic about the fact that between now and when she can D me, ain't nothing likely to change her mind if she's in the state that sandi describes. The futility that I feel...starting to hate her to the point I give up.


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All sorry for my last point...I don't hate her nor do I plan to give up. I know I sound all over the place. What can I say just the pain inside me coming through. Hope you all can understand that.


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All over the place is par for the course Ballast. Read through my thread, im like an emotional YoYo.

Think of it like you are a bouncy ball, and your WW leaving was her SLAMMING that bouncy ball onto concrete.

You will bounce several hundred times, but each time will be less, and less, and less high, with weaker and weaker impacts on the concrete.

Eventually you (and I) will lose all of our bouncing inertia, and roll idly down the driveway, calmly rolling away from WW.

We just have to make sure, if they ever pick up the bouncy ball again, it will be to bring it inside the house and keep it safe, not to slam it into the concrete again after shes had her fun playing with a tennis ball for a year instead.

Odd analogy, i hope it makes sense.


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Originally Posted By: ballast
And then if I do divorce, not to say that folks like your friend don't come around, but by then at what cost?


Yes this is something I touch on now and then, that by the time a WAS does come around then inevitably the LBS has moved on and no longer wants recon. The problem with our wanting recon after BD is not that we love our spouse that much, it's that we want to put everything back to normal and resume our life. That's really the crux of this. I was just as checked out of the M as my ex, in fact I had kicked around the idea of leaving her. In the end I decided not to because of the kids. But then when she BD'd me, suddenly I could think of nothing else but getting her back. It's a strange thing, probably chemical, that goes on in our brains. We don't want something we have until we don't have it anymore, then suddenly it consumes us.

Quote:
There are too many men that I see who are married to loving women and in no way are those men alpha.


One thing I've learned from talking to a lot of people since my own BD- things are almost never as they appear. Many, MANY of those happy marriages you see are falling apart in secret. One of my coworkers has what appears to be an amazing 30 year marriage- their kids are grown and starting their own families, the man has an excellent income, the woman is now retired and has an incredible pension, they travel 4 to 6 times a year to exotic locales, they party and do everything together. I've known them 20 years and would have told you they were as happy a couple as I've ever seen. After BD I had some heart-to-heart convos with him about my sitch. Come to find out he had been thinking of leaving her for years. They have sex twice a year, if she is falling down drunk. He has had oral sex with her one time in 30 years. ONE TIME!! When he told me that it was all I could do to to refrain from telling him I had it the evening before and again that morning before work wink She never stops complaining and has tried to kick him out, and actually he did move out once for a while. They basically decided to stick together for financial reasons and for the kids/ grandkids but they live as roommates. But by all appearances they are madly in love and have a "perfect" marriage.

I just don't think humans are wired to be with one person for life, LOL!


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Originally Posted By: AnotherStander
[quote=ballast] I just don't think humans are wired to be with one person for life, LOL!


To add to this, I had it explained to me once that the institute of marriage goes back thousands of years. Up to 150 -200 years ago people would live to about 30-40. If you got married at 20 you were only married 10-20 years tops. Most marriage can make it to 10-20 years. Now that we live twice as long being with the same person for 20-40 years is another story.

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Originally Posted By: AnotherStander
Yes this is something I touch on now and then, that by the time a WAS does come around then inevitably the LBS has moved on and no longer wants recon.


See that is just straight tragic sad. How life goes I guess, but after two people have made a commitment before God, family and each other to then get themselves into such a state...

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander
The problem with our wanting recon after BD is not that we love our spouse that much, it's that we want to put everything back to normal and resume our life.


See for me I feel I did love her that much. Sure there were times when those feelings went up/down and I know many times I did a terrible job at showing her I did, but I never had to question if I loved her. And I would be more than fine with creating a new MR with her and a new life. If one day she was seriously wanting to talk to me about our R, I'd agree with her that the old MR was not enough for either of us. I accept the old normal wasn't enough, sadly I don't think I'll get the chance with her to make a new improved future. You hear it said "ah if two people want to work at it, they can make a marriage stronger than what they had before"...it is again terribly sad that more couples can't/won't turn inwards towards each other, tell each other they are going to get through whatever together and make the changes necessary to fulfill each other.

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander
We don't want something we have until we don't have it anymore, then suddenly it consumes us.


Eh...if I REALLY thought we were horrible for each other then I "think" I could let her go and not be consumed trying to get her back.

In our case both of our parents have been married for 50+ years. We both at least I thought knew that getting married would be up and down and hard work. So when I married, I was come h*ll or high water I am NOT leaving you. I thought she was/would be the same, unfortunately, I could not have been more wrong. Folks just give up these days, it's too easy to believe the grass is greener, social media/Internet makes betrayal available right at your finger tips and having to work at a marriage when instead you can simply drop the problem person and pick up a new one makes no sense. I know I'm old fashioned on marriage/morals. You DO NOT make a commitment and then walk when it does not suit you. Sadly I think way more in my generation completely disagree with that sentiment. People today just do not count the blessings that they have and instead quickly cast them aside when any adversity comes about.


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Originally Posted By: ballast

So when I married, I was come h*ll or high water I am NOT leaving you. I thought she was/would be the same, unfortunately, I could not have been more wrong. Folks just give up these days, it's too easy to believe the grass is greener, social media/Internet makes betrayal available right at your finger tips and having to work at a marriage when instead you can simply drop the problem person and pick up a new one makes no sense. I know I'm old fashioned on marriage/morals. You DO NOT make a commitment and then walk when it does not suit you. Sadly I think way more in my generation completely disagree with that sentiment. People today just do not count the blessings that they have and instead quickly cast them aside when any adversity comes about.


I agree it is a problem with our generation.
I too am old school, i only wanted 1 marraige, and I may stick to that. I have said before, if another woman wants to get married to me it will have to be a really convincing situation. Hard sell.

My parents have been together for 35 years. WW's parents have 4 divorces between them, and it will likely be 5 sometime soon (MIL and Step-FIL hate eachother)
She has said before "I come from divorced families and I am fine"
She isnt. So i know she has her own view of how "Ok" divorces are. I disagree. Of all my friends from un-divorced homes vs. those from divorced homes, i can say who i think ends up being more well rounded relationship partners.

Ballast, here is the thing. I have regretted many a rash decisions ive made in my life.
I think its safe to say the WW's out there, Mine and Yours, are going to rue those decisions later in life.

We be tortoises, they be hares. Let them run off after the green grass, touting their arrogance and superiority.
Thinking they have won the race, and being exhausted from all the effort it took to "win" by deception, they will one day wake from their pretentious nap, only to find we have crossed the finish line, to the elation of our peers, while they slink up to the finish line, alone and defeated, likely looking to bask in our victory.


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Hey Ballast, sorry to hear you are suffering and struggling. One thing I can read between the lines is that you are telling yourself stories, and then getting upset about those stories. That is far different than reacting to what actually happens.

Let's say you go into a store, buy something, hand the cashier your money, and put your hand out for the change. Instead of putting the change in your hand, the cashier puts the change on the counter.

You could tell yourself "the cashier did that because they hate me and are showing their disrespect" and you could then get mad about that and walk around fuming.

Alternately you could tell yourself "the cashier is tired and just puts everyone's change on the counter, it has nothing to do with me" and leave without thinking about it anymore.

--Or-- you could say "the cashier put the change on the counter" (which is the fact of what happened) and not ascribe meaning to it, or draw a relation to what that means about you. Does that make sense?

Originally Posted By: ballast
With me having D this weekend, first thing on Saturday W hit me up about needing some information for our car insurance to split up. For sure she knew by doing that, she would likely get me thinking about us and not having fun with D. I simply replied back with the requested answer and moved on to having a great time with my D. This whole "sorting out" if you say that's what it is, right now it seems like passive/aggressive (vindictiveness) from W.


Can you identify the story you're telling yourself, and how its different from the facts of what happened in the quote above?

W asked you a question about car insurance -- that's the fact, that's what happened.

You told yourself the story that she chose that time to ask the question because she was trying to derail your thoughts so you wouldn't enjoy your time with your daughter.

You went further and labeled her logistical question about insurance as passive aggressive and vindictive.

With the benefit of hindsight, does that conclusion seem like a stretch to you?

If she's trying to get out of the marriage, then why would she ever want you "thinking about us"? If you "think about us" and get sad, on some level she feels guilty, so she doesn't want you to "think about us".

Is it possible that because she didn't have D around, she was taking some time to work on her logistics, had "insurance" on her list, began working on the insurance situation, ran into a roadblock and reached out with a question?

If that's what happened, it had *nothing* to do with you, your thought process, your time with D, or being vindictive right?

It's a very important skill to develop to step back, and separate the FACTS of what happened, from the meaning you attached to it in the form of a story you told yourself. Your stories have far more to do with what you think of yourself than other people's motivations.

In another example, you interpreted the fact that W didn't reach out to you on Father's Day to mean that she doesn't respect you. The fact is that she didn't reach out. The interpretation that this means she doesn't respect you is a story you're telling yourself.

Its also possible that she forgot it was Father's Day, or that she felt awkward about reaching out, or the thought of reaching out made her sad, or her friend got sick and Father's Day slipped her mind. You simply don't know the "why" you only know the "what".

If you've read up at all about NGS then you've read about "covert contracts". Covert contracts are when you do something for someone, and then build an expectation in your mind that you are entitled to get something back as a result, but you don't articulate that expectation. Then, when the "something" isn't delivered, you get mad and resentful.

In your story about Father's Day, you seem to imply that since you reached out to her on Mother's Day, you were entitled to have her reach out to you on Father's Day. That is a covert contract, and that is a dangerous practice to engage in because it doesn't end well.

If you want to reach out to her on Mother's Day, then do so, but learn to do it with no expectations that you are then due something in return. If you expect to be acknowledged on Father's Day, then let the people you'd like to hear from know in advance that this is your expectation. Otherwise your "contract" is covert. In this case, I don't recommend asking for something like that from W, but in the future if she asks you to take extra parenting nights so she can go do something, and you'd like to be able to ask her for the same thing in the future, make it clear to her that this is your expectation.

Originally Posted By: ballast
I have gotten ZERO from W since beyond high selfishness and desire to control whom I talk to within her family.


Well that is *her* family right? I had a great relationship with my exW's family. When she became a WAS, I read something here that said that this experience is super painful for the WAS even though they don't show you that. They need their support network just like you need yours.

If you stay in regular and proactive contact with her family, or worse yet campaign that "you are the good guy and don't want this", you're cutting a leg off of her support network and she will resent you for that.

She's their daughter, let her have her family for support, regardless of what she's done or how bad she's been. You have your family and friends to rely upon.

In the future you'll have plenty of opportunities to have a wonderful relationship with your ex-Inlaws, but for now push the pause button.

I told my exFil as much -- he was complaining about exW's choices and behavior to me. I said "Fil, I've really enjoyed our friendship, but right now your daughter needs you and I'd prefer that you support her than commisserate with me. We'll have time to do this in the future once we get through this" He respected that and I'm sure exW appreciated it very much.

On the topic of respect and Sandi's posts, you need to have "The Attitude" as we've discussed. No matter what happens, your toes are still tappin'. This is also called "fake it until you make it" and "Act as If" in the DB book.

If you're confident in who you are and establish healthy boundaries for how you will be treated, and treat others with respect and empathy, everyone will respect you, exW included. There is no reason to disrespect you in that scenario, and if someone did you wouldn't care. That's where you want to be.

Acc


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ACC so bottom line up front, I need to CHILL THE H out! I completely see that instead of taking things at face value, I've blown them WAY out of proportion AND crafted them to make them as pessimistic as possible to feed my fear, anxiety and belief there is no hope. Totally guilty as charged.

I also for sure did expect a covert contract for Father's Day. As I had acknowledged her, I EXPECTED the same and then went off the deep end thinking "She must hate me like crazy, no chance, we're done, over, over, over". Again guilty as charged.

The thing with the in-laws is that she does not talk with them about our sitch nor seek support from them as she knows they do not agree with her choice at all. I do see what you mean and I'm sure she resents that fact. I really, really do not want nor like hearing anything like "I'm on your side"...to me there is no side, there's supporting a couple and hoping for an R/new MR vs divorce. I need to do a much better job on this topic, perhaps backing away may help to defuse/reduce some of the pressure/resentment in her.

Lastly appreciate your insight on the respect topic and reaffirming to me the Mike Damone way. Last last thing I'll say is SEE how you gave me "exW, exFil" even something that subtle triggers me to believe that even you think me and W are hopeless to save AND YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW US! Again I need to chill the H out...way out! Just being in the absence of control as you've told me about before. I will keep working at it...much much much time to go for me to get better in many ways.

Thank you ACC! Always appreciated!


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"I" am my own worst enemy at this time. It is not what W is doing to me but rather what "I" am doing to and NOT doing for myself!


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And just like that W hits me with an email referencing "the divorce" make it already sound to me like a certainty. Treat it as if and go on?


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Originally Posted By: ballast
Treat it as if and go on?


I am not sure what you mean can you be more specific?

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LH...W was saying "we'll have to take care of X prior to the divorce" and seeing that word triggered me to think "that's it, she said the word, it's final, no hope, she's done" that kind of crap thinking I told myself I need to get better about.

That said I just replied back with my comments to her question "as if" it didn't trigger me and kept on with my day.

We are not even 4 months into a 12 month wait to file anyway. I have GOT TO STOP myself from being so beyond completely hopeless in my thinking/mentality every time I see the single freakin word.


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Keep perspective. Time is your ally.

I am also somewhere that requires 12 months separation before D can be filed for. My W will bring up having to do this or that in the interim. I just ignore it generally. She has to do the work if she wants this, I will not help facilitate a D. I am not rude about it, but I will not engage in any serious talk about it either.

So, I say yeah, continue to act as if you are doing fine and envision positive outcomes. There is plenty of time to turn things around and even if you do not succeed, find the patience and discipline to properly DB. You will either end up with a new and better you and a better MR, or you will end up with a new and better you that is prepared to move on successfully.


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I always love to read Acc's posts because he has a gift for cutting right to the core of things! Plus even after all the work I've done these last 6 or 7 years I really need those reminders so I don't slip back into old NG habits. I was the king of covert contracts and still have to watch that, probably will have to the rest of my life. But the beauty of what we are learning is that once we can identify our faults then we can watch for them and do 180's on them as they come up.

Originally Posted By: LH19

If you got married at 20 you were only married 10-20 years tops. Most marriage can make it to 10-20 years. Now that we live twice as long being with the same person for 20-40 years is another story.


Interesting. I mean you would think if you could make it 20 years then you are in it for the duration, but yeah around 20 years seems to be the death knell for marriages that even make it that far.

Originally Posted By: ballast
ACC so bottom line up front, I need to CHILL THE H out! I completely see that instead of taking things at face value, I've blown them WAY out of proportion AND crafted them to make them as pessimistic as possible to feed my fear, anxiety and belief there is no hope. Totally guilty as charged.


Also that is totally normal. We all do or did it. It's like some chemical gets released into our system (which is quite possible) that makes our minds spin out of control and twist everything into a negative scenario. That will slowly dissipate over time.

Quote:
I also for sure did expect a covert contract for Father's Day. As I had acknowledged her, I EXPECTED the same and then went off the deep end thinking "She must hate me like crazy, no chance, we're done, over, over, over". Again guilty as charged.


If something is a big deal to you then just tell people in advance what you expect. Two of my kids are adults now and live in another town, my bday was a couple of weeks ago and about a week before I had not heard a word from them so I texted them and asked if they were coming in and had any plans for us to do anything. They had not made plans yet so we went back and forth and worked it out. They hadn't gotten me presents so asked what I wanted and I gave them a few ideas. We got together and had a great lunch with my GF and then they asked me what cake I wanted, I told them and they picked it up on the way home and we opened presents and had cake, it was wonderful! Sure there were no surprises but guess what, I GOT EXACTLY WHAT I ASKED FOR AND WANTED. It's amazing how when you are open with people and tell them what you want, you usually end up getting it. When my GF comes over she asks what I want to do. You know what I DON'T say? "I don't know, what do you want to do?" I tell her let's do this, then we'll do that, then we'll head home and (fill in the blank with your imagination grin ). She's happy because she hates making decisions, and I'm happy because I get what I want. Now maybe I say Mexican food and she says "I had that for lunch, can we do something else?" Of course we can, I'm flexible, not controlling.

Anyway, not trying to belabor the point too much but forget the covert contracts, if you are expecting something then tell the involved parties what you are expecting. Try it, you will be amazed at how well it works, and the resentment goes away!

Last edited by Cadet; 06/21/18 05:46 AM. Reason: Start a new thread message

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Originally Posted By: ballast
LH...W was saying "we'll have to take care of X prior to the divorce" and seeing that word triggered me to think "that's it, she said the word, it's final, no hope, she's done" that kind of crap thinking I told myself I need to get better about.


Rather than try and ignore that feeling, why not explore it. Sit down and think about it. If D happens what will that look like. Maybe you'll move, or maybe not. Maybe you'll D for a few years and recon. Maybe you'll D and meet some fabulous new woman that EXCEEDS everything you think you want (like I did). I did this exercise and eventually came to peace with D. Hearing the word no longer triggered me.

I promise you this, what happens to you regardless of recon or not is going to be far better than you realize right now.

You're at 11 pages- time for a new thread buddy smile

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2797109#Post2797109

Last edited by Cadet; 06/21/18 08:02 AM. Reason: Link

Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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