Separated - Patience & DB or Divorce?

[sandi2]

We have L consultation June 26. Going to say a few words about what I want in my partner.

I may wrong, but that doesn't seem to be the time & place to talk about what you want in a partner. It has nothing to do with the business to discuss in a lawyer's office.

I don't understand why you both are seeing the same lawyer for legal council. Is that not a conflict of interest?

[hoosjim]

I don't understand why you both are seeing the same lawyer for legal council. Is that not a conflict of interest?

^^^THIS.

Speaking as a lawyer, no, it is not necessarily a conflict of interest. In fact my own best friend went this route with his own D. I can tell you, however, that it is one of the biggest mistakes he made and one of the biggest mistakes you can make, especially if you are harboring any hopes of reconcilliation. For starters, a D lawyer has absolutely no vested in interest in you reconciling-- they make their money off of you splitting, and when one represents both sides, there is twice the money at stake. Second, it "legitimizes" the D proceedings in the WAS's/WW's eyes. You are cooperating with her as she seeks to cut the cord from you and move on with her "new better" life. I will leave the nuances of all of that to Sandi2 as i am still a relative noob here, but i have seen first hand what the dynamic is in that situation and it is generally NOT consistent with being the "strong, in-charge, male who is leaving HER behind" (or who doesn't care one way or the other) and is NOT consistent (IMO) with the tenets of DB-ing.

It is also something that, ethical or not, i would personally NEVER take on as an attorney (were i ever to venture into that field of the law).

Peace.

[ovrrnbw]

Yea, I'm gonna add a third voice in support of getting your own lawyer. Don't use hers.

[Did]

Hi everyone thanks for your time and advice. So the L I saw is a mediation attorney. Thats all she does. She has said youre not ready, Im probably the only attorney who doesnt want people to divorce. I hate the court system etc. This is just a consultation. Mediation with her is still expensive (3-4k but cheaper than other routes) and that is how she makes a living but thats what she has said. She has also said things like W needs to work. Separation agreement is legally binding. She mentioned rules of no OM in rental if Im on lease (I will not push for that I dont want to control her - I want her to be free and to come back to me if she chooses not for the wrong reasons). This L I have seen W has not. She will not give either of us legal counsel but helps with a peaceful divorce. Her name is Dawn Clement if you want to look her up. I have had a few conversations with her and met her once already and I like the way she works. I think it will be enlightening for W who seems entitled to believe I should pay for her life until she can get her business up and running. She says she hasnt spent any money isnt entitled etc... of course.

I think W needs to work as soon as she can find a job after I can have D3 consistently (mid July). I am going to say I want her to be working 20 hours a week or making $2000 / mo by the end of August- gives her 45 days to find a job. Thoughts on this? I dont know if / how thats in my power to control or how its enforcable. But I am splitting finances after our house sells June 28 and havent agreed to separation agreement (paying the 2300/mo to her for more than 3 mo) I am paying for everything still... she needs to work.

I get that it is not the time or place at the L office to talk about what I want. Maybe I speak to W the day before?

I want a partner I can talk about anything and everything with (W gets anxious about many things and we cant have good conversation unless its light and easy). A best friend not just a physical attraction. I want a deep connection. A partner who values my opinion and lets me lead the marriage rather than shutting me down if we disagree and holding onto anger for hours or days.

I want a partner who loves her husband as much as her children. And understand a happy marriage is one of the most important things for everyone in the fam including children. Love is a choice its not always the butterfly feeling a long term relationship takes work. Ill do the work but I cant do it by myself.

I want a partner who would never be ok with consistently sleeping in separate bedrooms. A partner who is happy to come home to each other and grateful of our high quality of life, sexual, fun, who wants more children, wants to travel, date / romance and enjoy life.

A partner who is excited about our future, about my future - potential career change or accomplishments. I would be excited for W to get her business going, that would be awesome if she was earning money. Id be happy for her I want the same. Nervous because she doesnt like the work in that field... but not my decision.

I havent figured out exactly what Id say but I feel like I need to say something. If she says of course I want all those things but I dont know if Im ready yet or Im not sure I want them with you or just still doesnt know I will give her some more time. The separation agreement we talked about is 3 months and then divorce has a 90 day cool down period.

Or if she says that isnt something shed like to have in the future or doesnt want that with me and isnt open to working towards in her own way- meaning having her own space to heal as she says what she needs is alone time. Then fine we go into the mediation / divorce process. Its not what I want but I am at peace with it. Im moving to a nice town with a lot of people where I make solid money and have a large network of families to get to know. Im a great dad. Im lucky to have a beautiful daughter and blessed to be healthy, successful, working in a field I enjoy. I have learned so much this past year its unbelievable. Ive changed a lot, emotionally, maturity, strength of character, dealing with stress, depression, being ok with being alone etc. I believe I am a man shed be a fool to leave.

Is this wrong? Should I have no R talk? I want to reconcile itd be like a dream if things actually worked out but she has to want it too and she will have to work to overcome traumas and learned behaviors from her parents that contributed to our MR failing. Ive done a lot of therapy, by no means am I a finished product. But I think I know what I need to work on and Im doing that work... Its been a year as of this week.

Thanks all!

[AnotherStander]

I think it will be enlightening for W who seems entitled to believe I should pay for her life until she can get her business up and running.

Your W won't be enlightened by anything you say or do, or anything your L/mediator says or does. Too many people here think there is some magic button to press to help their WAS "see the light" but there isn't. You misunderstand the anger and resentment she has built up, and how it is clouding her vision.

I think W needs to work as soon as she can find a job after I can have D3 consistently (mid July). I am going to say I want her to be working 20 hours a week or making $2000 / mo by the end of August- gives her 45 days to find a job. Thoughts on this? I dont know if / how thats in my power to control or how its enforcable.

I already answered this on the last page:

"As far as her having a job, no that would not be part of the separation agreement. That's not your business. Your business is what YOUR financial responsibility is to HER. How she makes ends meet beyond what you give her is HER business."

You are splitting up, how she makes money and how much she makes is 100% out of your control. If she doesn't have enough to survive then that's her problem. That's a consequence of splitting up that she may have to face.

I am paying for everything still... she needs to work.

OK well you need to start thinking in legal terms, not in terms of what YOU want. Legally you cannot force her to work AT ALL. This happens all the time, a couple splits up and one doesn't work, just wants to poach off the other. And often the courts support this, if one of the spouses was the breadwinner and the other a stay-at-home parent then the courts will force the breadwinner to support the other to some extent. Your mediator may tell you you're not responsible. Your W may say screw the mediator, in which case you're now facing a court battle. The outcome of that battle is uncertain. You may have a large financial obligation to support your W as an outcome, you really don't know. But the point is- you can't make her work and in fact she may deliberately avoid working until after the D in order to maximize the amount of support she is awarded.

I get that it is not the time or place at the L office to talk about what I want. Maybe I speak to W the day before?

I want a partner I can talk about anything and everything with (W gets anxious about many things and we cant have good conversation unless its light and easy). A best friend not just a physical attraction. I want a deep connection. A partner who values my opinion and lets me lead the marriage rather than shutting me down if we disagree and holding onto anger for hours or days.

She doesn't care what you want. Maybe she will again some day (months or even years from now), but not now. You really need to read Sandi's rules every day and live by those rules. "Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them." Why is this a rule? Because a WAS is completely focused on themselves. They feel they have been neglected for years, have taken care of others while getting little care and attention themselves. So if you go to a WAS making a bunch of demands, that to them is "more of the same". You go to her with this long laundry list of what you want in a W she's going to say "yup same old H, doesn't care about my needs at all, just wants to control and manipulate and tell me what he wants." In short it will drive her farther away.

I havent figured out exactly what Id say but I feel like I need to say something.

Another of Sandi's rules- "learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out".

[hoosjim]

Hi everyone thanks for your time and advice. So the L I saw is a mediation attorney. Thats all she does. She has said youre not ready, Im probably the only attorney who doesnt want people to divorce. I hate the court system etc. This is just a consultation.

Meh. I mean, what else is she supposed to say as a "mediation attorney".

Look, you gotta do what you think is best for you but... I can't think of anything more soul-crushing than having to go through an entire divorce constantly sitting across the table from the woman I am divorcing. Especially if you at all harbor any feelings for her. Joint MC is one thing, where both parties are committed to making the MR work, but this is entirely different and, IMO, not at all healthy for a LBS nor conducive to his/her GAL, detachment, and "moving on with life". That's why separate lawyers in a divorce is usually the better option-- communication regarding most of the divorce stuff can proceed through the third party attorneys.

Just my two cents. (And my hourly rate is actually much more, so you're getting a bargain )

[ovrrnbw]

Did, if you truly want to reconcile, maybe hold off on the R talks. I know you're hoping to force a do or die situation, but are you truly prepared for the end? I can't tell you what to do or what will happen. Maybe it would work, I don't know.

[Did]

I have been focused on Sandys rules I barely speaks to my W. I post here when I want to tell W how I miss her or I wake up thinking of her etc. The only reason I want this do or die situation is because she wants her own place. She is not working so she needs to be separate and do it on her own. I can not afford to pay for our separate lives long term.

There are so many issues to work through if we reconcile I just do not see her doing it. Unless there is some radical change. Yea I truly want to R with all my heart. But also I feel like I am ready and capable to build a new life with split custody. It is sad and I miss holding her and talking to her sharing life and being able to count on each other. I regret not being the man I am today before. But I can not change the past and I can no team change her. Yes she is focused on herself and was neglected. But what am I supposed to do. We need to separate finances and she needs to see what it is like without me. She needs to be on her own and she seems to expect me continue to support her. I am trying to make this happen.

Hoosjim I appreciate the law advice with your expertise. Yes this is a cheap divorce and it Ian done in 1-2 three hour mediation sessions. Although at this point it is just a consultation for $100.

[Did]

W texts me I think I am definitely starting to feel less anxious around you. She had awful anxiety when I was pressuring her for R for months.

Trying not to read too much into it. But I think it is somewhat of a big deal just going to keep doing what works. Being happy a great dad thankful for my blessings, giving her time and space. Being a man she would be a fool to leave. If she comes back that would be amazing but I am going to have a great life either way. Trying to play it cool and not be excited. Still a long way to go. But I am starting to see a glimmer of light. Want to be the light house.

If she does Want to work on things or do things together I do not know how open to it I should be. I strongly feel like there are things she needs to work to change and other things she needs to apologize for. Things that really messed me up for a while.

Thanks all!

[ovrrnbw]

Instead of trying to play it cool, focus on your boundaries and try to be clear about what you want and need. Coming off as clear and genuine will be helpful. And if she did talk to you, you don't want to be playing games, but rather being honest.

But that text is a good sign, no doubt.