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Really struggled last night. Had been good the past few days, focusing on myself, being there for my kids, being strong and determined. I still have hope that things may get better despite WAW's hurtful words last Monday.

After a week of very little contact, even IRT kids, I was pretty down last night. Didn't sleep well (couldn't get to sleep). Just reflecting on the lack of contact. It's new to me. It feels foreign, and hard to comprehend, but I keep telling myself it's for the best right now.

This morning when dropping off the kids W took a second to fix my shirt. Nothing crazy and certainly nothing to hold on to. But after 9 days of little to no contact, it offered the glimmer of hope that I needed, that things may not be as bad as she made them out to be last week.


M:33 W:36
T:10 M:7
D8, D6
EA->PA (me) July/Aug '16
W move out 8/30/16
Recon M 9/7/16
S0 (miscarried) 9/13/16
W moved back 9/17/16
BD/WAW 6/24/17 while out of town
Home to empty apartment 6/27/17
Joined: Feb 2018
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dmoy, not to burst your bubble, but it was likely guilt over the hurtful words that caused her to fix your shirt. Most WAWs will try to continue to be "nice" until the D is final. I am seeing more and more WAW behavior where they want the D to be as smooth as possible, and will bend over backwards to grease the runway to get the D through as painlessly as possible.

Remember, WAWs are trying to be happy. That is their ultimate goal. Dwelling on D proceedings/filings/briefs/court appearances aren't what makes them happy.

When my neice left her husband for another guy, she was trying to be as nice as possible until she got the final D decree. Once she did she was as happy as a lark to move on with the new guy.

Believe nothing she says (even her hurtful words) and only 1/2 of what she does (fixing your shirt this morning).


M(53), W(54),D(19)
M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017
Ring and Piecing since March 2018
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Originally Posted By: dmoy
Humans are stupid creatures.


I wouldn't say stupid, we are highly intelligent, but yet driven by base instincts at the same time. After BD I was having crazy anxiety attacks and read up on fight-or-flight syndrome (which was exactly the anxiety reaction I was having). It is just so bizarre that we've evolved well past the need for fight-or-flight and yet when something like BD happens to us it triggers that instinct in us even though our intelligent, logical brain KNOWS it is an unneeded and in fact unwanted reaction. I mean I was there sitting in the same office I had sat in for 10 years, no physical danger whatsoever, and yet my instinct was telling me there was danger nearby and I needed to run. It was so strong that I simply could not sit at my desk, had to get up dozens of times a day and stroll the hall or even outside the building aimlessly (which didn't really help much).

Anyway, my point there is just that our base instincts are not always right. That's the struggle with DB'ing is it doesn't "feel" right, at least not at first. Eventually when you see it working you'll come to embrace it more.

Originally Posted By: dmoy
1 more Q just because I need to get the stupid out of my system.

W is running a half marathon this weekend. She's ran it a few times before but skipped last year. The other weekend she was excited when kids and I came to support her in a local 5k.

Thinking I'm ok with a basic "good luck on your run" text or audio message from me/kids but leave it at that? She's grown accustomed to the support and appreciates it. Just thinking totally avoiding saying anything at all would make me seem like a jerk and I'm trying to get out of the passive-aggressive habits of old me.


Given that she responded favorably last time (remember, keep doing what works, don't do what doesn't work) I would call her and say "hey would you like me to bring the kids by to watch you run?" I think phrasing it that way takes the "pursuit" aspect out of it.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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Originally Posted By: Steve85
dmoy, not to burst your bubble, but it was likely guilt over the hurtful words that caused her to fix your shirt. Most WAWs will try to continue to be "nice" until the D is final. I am seeing more and more WAW behavior where they want the D to be as smooth as possible, and will bend over backwards to grease the runway to get the D through as painlessly as possible.

Remember, WAWs are trying to be happy. That is their ultimate goal. Dwelling on D proceedings/filings/briefs/court appearances aren't what makes them happy.

When my neice left her husband for another guy, she was trying to be as nice as possible until she got the final D decree. Once she did she was as happy as a lark to move on with the new guy.

Believe nothing she says (even her hurtful words) and only 1/2 of what she does (fixing your shirt this morning).


Entirely possible. Trying not to read too much into it.

But what's the play? If they want to be happy and appease just to get D finalized it seems like there's nothing that can really be done. Sometimes DB really seems a lot like a wing and a prayer.

Detach, fix yourself, and hope that W sees the change and decides to change course. But from the sounds of it, most of the time this doesn't happen and maybe it's more dumb luck. In the end you come through with change to yourself but that's like getting a consolation prize, tbh. "You're now single again and your kids will grow up in a broken home, but at least you feel better about yourself!"

Not trying to be negative, just realistic. Life isn't all unicorns and rainbows.


M:33 W:36
T:10 M:7
D8, D6
EA->PA (me) July/Aug '16
W move out 8/30/16
Recon M 9/7/16
S0 (miscarried) 9/13/16
W moved back 9/17/16
BD/WAW 6/24/17 while out of town
Home to empty apartment 6/27/17
Joined: Oct 2017
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dmoy Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: AnotherStander
Originally Posted By: dmoy
Humans are stupid creatures.

Given that she responded favorably last time (remember, keep doing what works, don't do what doesn't work) I would call her and say "hey would you like me to bring the kids by to watch you run?" I think phrasing it that way takes the "pursuit" aspect out of it.


This race was out because it's pretty far away. I had asked her the other week and she pushed back on it with excuses-- "I haven't practiced much so it's going to be a bad run" ... "it's far away" etc. Realistically she's staying w/ family and I don't think she wants them to find out we're spending time together.

She did redirect and say there's another local event a few weeks later that we could go to instead of going to the one further away.

I think we'll send her well wishes since we're not able to attend this weekend, but I'll follow up on supporting her at the next one since that did seem to work.

Thanks


M:33 W:36
T:10 M:7
D8, D6
EA->PA (me) July/Aug '16
W move out 8/30/16
Recon M 9/7/16
S0 (miscarried) 9/13/16
W moved back 9/17/16
BD/WAW 6/24/17 while out of town
Home to empty apartment 6/27/17
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 9,822
Likes: 226
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Originally Posted By: dmoy
Originally Posted By: Steve85
dmoy, not to burst your bubble, but it was likely guilt over the hurtful words that caused her to fix your shirt. Most WAWs will try to continue to be "nice" until the D is final. I am seeing more and more WAW behavior where they want the D to be as smooth as possible, and will bend over backwards to grease the runway to get the D through as painlessly as possible.

Remember, WAWs are trying to be happy. That is their ultimate goal. Dwelling on D proceedings/filings/briefs/court appearances aren't what makes them happy.

When my neice left her husband for another guy, she was trying to be as nice as possible until she got the final D decree. Once she did she was as happy as a lark to move on with the new guy.

Believe nothing she says (even her hurtful words) and only 1/2 of what she does (fixing your shirt this morning).


Entirely possible. Trying not to read too much into it.

But what's the play? If they want to be happy and appease just to get D finalized it seems like there's nothing that can really be done. Sometimes DB really seems a lot like a wing and a prayer.

Detach, fix yourself, and hope that W sees the change and decides to change course. But from the sounds of it, most of the time this doesn't happen and maybe it's more dumb luck. In the end you come through with change to yourself but that's like getting a consolation prize, tbh. "You're now single again and your kids will grow up in a broken home, but at least you feel better about yourself!"

Not trying to be negative, just realistic. Life isn't all unicorns and rainbows.


dmoy, if you are looking for a magic bullet to save your M, then yes, you are going to be disappointed. There is none. The whole problem with trying to save your M is that you have NO CONTROL over your W. None. And any efforts to control her will only further cement her decision to D.

So yes, you work on you. Detach. GAL. 180s. BE THE BEST YOU THAT YOU CAN BE, and then with every opportunity you have, show her that you are the best you can be!

You're in a better position than some in that you have kids, unless she is completely off the rails she will want to maintain a relationship with her kids, and that's your in. Do exactly what you did this morning.

Also, don't answer her phonecalls. Don't respond to VMs and texts right away. Make her wait. Sorry, you were busy. Keep texts to logistics about the kids. You have to start getting a little mysterious. Make her wonder what is going on. You see, the reason WAWs don't like it when you start to pull back is because you are their safety net. Their plan B. When you start to take that away they feel disoriented, uneasy and start to question their decision. The idea of you not being their to catch her if she falls makes her feel that she may be making the wrong choice.

So take away the safety net. Don't be plan B anymore. Will it work in saving your marriage? Maybe. Maybe not. But how has what you've been doing been working for you? Time to 180.


M(53), W(54),D(19)
M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017
Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 38
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dmoy Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Steve85
dmoy, if you are looking for a magic bullet to save your M, then yes, you are going to be disappointed. There is none. The whole problem with trying to save your M is that you have NO CONTROL over your W. None. And any efforts to control her will only further cement her decision to D.

So yes, you work on you. Detach. GAL. 180s. BE THE BEST YOU THAT YOU CAN BE, and then with every opportunity you have, show her that you are the best you can be!

You're in a better position than some in that you have kids, unless she is completely off the rails she will want to maintain a relationship with her kids, and that's your in. Do exactly what you did this morning.

Also, don't answer her phonecalls. Don't respond to VMs and texts right away. Make her wait. Sorry, you were busy. Keep texts to logistics about the kids. You have to start getting a little mysterious. Make her wonder what is going on. You see, the reason WAWs don't like it when you start to pull back is because you are their safety net. Their plan B. When you start to take that away they feel disoriented, uneasy and start to question their decision. The idea of you not being their to catch her if she falls makes her feel that she may be making the wrong choice.

So take away the safety net. Don't be plan B anymore. Will it work in saving your marriage? Maybe. Maybe not. But how has what you've been doing been working for you? Time to 180.


Thanks for the reminder on the bolded. I had gotten comfortable in oversharing again as she spent more time together over the 5-6 week period. Maybe she was just being nice. Who knows.

What I do know is that her behavior then did not match her words of "I don't feel the same way" and "I can't change how I feel." Those words were a lizard brain (yes, AS, that's what it's actually called wink ) reaction to my pressure on R. I'm 100% confident when I say that there was an emotional connection, for whatever reason. The eye contact and intimacy holds a significant bond when talking to someone or sharing in an activity together. It's one thing we should all focus on when trying to better connect with our spouses. So despite what she said in the moment, her body language in the weeks prior was saying the opposite. Whether she knew it or not.

In any sense, I'll get back to mystery. Taking care of the kids and not sharing what we're doing.


M:33 W:36
T:10 M:7
D8, D6
EA->PA (me) July/Aug '16
W move out 8/30/16
Recon M 9/7/16
S0 (miscarried) 9/13/16
W moved back 9/17/16
BD/WAW 6/24/17 while out of town
Home to empty apartment 6/27/17
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 38
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dmoy Offline OP
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Well the last few weeks have been meh. W is up to her usual. I'm trying to find ways to improve myself and remove my own focus from her. Been working on empathy and validation but it doesn't work as well over text, obviously. Limited IRL interactions long enough to hold any type of convo. I'm between a rock and a hard place because she's given me the playbook-- didn't appreciate her or validate her, but then little chance to try and do that now. (I read a book called "I Hear You" which was very good. I'll drop more details about that in the validation thread for everyone's benefit.)

The local race we were going to go to, when I asked her about that the other week she had made plans to take the kids to her mom's and cut me out of the loop. When I asked she said she "forgot" and it was "last minute" which with everything else just felt like an excuse for her not admitting she didn't want me there.

Other times she's pushed her way in and hung out when it benefits her. I've started pushing back a bit. It's hard to do because she uses the kids. I'd do anything for them and it's hard to tell if it's intentional or not. I don't want to seem like an a-hole for refusing when I'm available and I also love spending every minute of time I get with them. She's also repeatedly texted me old photos of me and the kids and sometimes our dog that I had to put down back in March.

In conversation about 3 weeks ago we were talking about the dentist again and she again mentioned something to the effect of putting me on her dental insurance starting in July, which makes no logical sense since that's about the same time she'd be eligible to file for D given the 1 year separation mark.

More recently, the other day at drop-off the kids were nagging her again about getting back together and why she wouldn't do it. She brushed them off with "it's adult stuff." I just kept my mouth shut and didn't encourage the girls as to not put any more stress on her.

Also of interesting note was that she unfriended my mom and sister on FB back around Jan-Feb and hasn't talked to my mom since. Out of the blue she texted my mom to wish her a happy birthday the about a week ago.

Lots of conflicting stuff. Trying not to think too much about it. Just feels like she's saying one thing and doing another. It'll be interesting to see what happens in July once she can file for D if she wants. We've never discussed it. Feels like maybe she's not ready but has pressure from friends/family.

As far as me, I've been working on getting out more, and want to start working out and shed about 30 pounds. Figure if I'm more attractive that'll be better. At least for me. Unfortunately I got sick about 3 weeks ago and it's taken it's toll on being able to exercise.

I'm a bit stressed with work, they're having payroll issues again. Obviously looking for another job just in case. I haven't told W yet since last time she used it as an excuse to go to the state and file for court-ordered child support. With the laws in this state, eviction is also swift so I'm already in a bit of a bind. If I lose my apartment I'm not quite sure what I'll do. It won't be good for the kids, I know that much. I want to be honest but it feels like it comes back to bite me every time. So does hiding it. Not really sure what to do there. Every time I'm in a bind it seems to give her pleasure seeing me hurt, regardless of the effect it may have on the kids.

Any words of wisdom/encouragement are always appreciated. smile


M:33 W:36
T:10 M:7
D8, D6
EA->PA (me) July/Aug '16
W move out 8/30/16
Recon M 9/7/16
S0 (miscarried) 9/13/16
W moved back 9/17/16
BD/WAW 6/24/17 while out of town
Home to empty apartment 6/27/17
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 38
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dmoy Offline OP
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Well yesterday was interesting. Earlier last week W had asked about getting the kids early one day I had them. I pushed back and told her I wanted to get together with my parents this weekend and at the end of hashing out details on when, I ended up inviting over along w/ the kids. I didn't ask her again all week. She texted to ask when to bring the kids over yesterday afternoon and in my response I asked if she was staying at all since her text made it sound like she was just dropping them off. She replied and said she'd stay for a little bit.

She ended up staying for the entire time my parents and sister were here, seemingly having fun. She even brought some food my mom had requested. This was the first time she had seen my family since around Labor Day last year when my parents came to visit right after I moved. The were even group texting and sharing photos after.

I have no idea what is happening aside from the usual wavering back and forth.


M:33 W:36
T:10 M:7
D8, D6
EA->PA (me) July/Aug '16
W move out 8/30/16
Recon M 9/7/16
S0 (miscarried) 9/13/16
W moved back 9/17/16
BD/WAW 6/24/17 while out of town
Home to empty apartment 6/27/17
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 9,822
Likes: 226
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Originally Posted By: dmoy
Originally Posted By: Steve85
dmoy, not to burst your bubble, but it was likely guilt over the hurtful words that caused her to fix your shirt. Most WAWs will try to continue to be "nice" until the D is final. I am seeing more and more WAW behavior where they want the D to be as smooth as possible, and will bend over backwards to grease the runway to get the D through as painlessly as possible.

Remember, WAWs are trying to be happy. That is their ultimate goal. Dwelling on D proceedings/filings/briefs/court appearances aren't what makes them happy.

When my neice left her husband for another guy, she was trying to be as nice as possible until she got the final D decree. Once she did she was as happy as a lark to move on with the new guy.

Believe nothing she says (even her hurtful words) and only 1/2 of what she does (fixing your shirt this morning).


Entirely possible. Trying not to read too much into it.

But what's the play? If they want to be happy and appease just to get D finalized it seems like there's nothing that can really be done. Sometimes DB really seems a lot like a wing and a prayer.

Detach, fix yourself, and hope that W sees the change and decides to change course. But from the sounds of it, most of the time this doesn't happen and maybe it's more dumb luck. In the end you come through with change to yourself but that's like getting a consolation prize, tbh. "You're now single again and your kids will grow up in a broken home, but at least you feel better about yourself!"

Not trying to be negative, just realistic. Life isn't all unicorns and rainbows.


So you are looking to do something that will GUARANTEE your W stays with you? Good luck.

What DBing does is increase the chance that she will reverse course and come back to the MR. But yes you are right, it is just hope, there is no guarantee. I don't know what the percentage but I can tell you that the percentage of LBSs that move to R through pursuit, pressure, and the like is minuscule. Probably in the single digits at best.

DBing, done right, increases the odds your WAS will come around. But even that is just a chance, not a guarantee. The only thing guaranteed in this life are death and taxes. Not necessarily in that order.


M(53), W(54),D(19)
M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017
Ring and Piecing since March 2018
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