My little daughters deserve a happy home, help!

[arsh18]

Hi all, I am moving from an older thread that had too much personal info.
Summarizing my sitch -

H of 10 years starts to shut down when D is 7 weeks old. Initially when I confront him says he is done with this life, with me, 2 kids, our home and life with me overall. Every subsequent conversation has been him blaming me, full of resentment and anger and not taking any responsibility for this. Says he had depression last year and I wasnt available to help during my pregnancy. Based on our cultural background, extended family intervened and H reached out to some friends too but he is not willing to change his mind and wants immediate D. I want to keep the marriage at any cost since I still feel this is a crisis that can be overcome and our Ds need a happy home with parents and not part time mom and dad.
No proof of EA/PA but has been very secretive with a new phone that he got after BD.
H wants me to move to a new state post D, says better job opportunities and environment for kids.
I have been through denial, depression, hell on earth and currently osciallate between depression and acceptance. Minimal GAL with 2 small children, have been trying to do 180s but have taken some baits. H's animosity has not decreased, switched overnight from being a patient person for 15 years to an eruptive volcano.
Is a good father to D3, has slowly started accepting baby after she turned 4 months.
Hoping to get help and support from all of you to somehow work a miracle and save my family for my Ds.

[arsh18]

Maika, Steve, Nicole, Vanilla and others hope you continue guiding me

[arsh18]

H has set up an appointment for mediation tomorrow. i know it is not the end but i cant stop the drowning sensation building in me, I am going in to just listen what he has to say and if he divulges anything that he has not told me before. is there still hope at this point?
He claims to want the children for half the time. L says he may get upto 40% custody with D3 and lesser with D6 months but I do not want to split the children, they are all the consistent family they will have. So he may end up getting 40% with both. He was all set to move out but has decided to stay until the D finalizes and even after wards live at the marital home until it is sold and we all move out of state to a new place. His L probably told him to stay with kids if he wants shared custody.
I am trying but it is hard to be cheerful in front of him now, and limited GAL but I try taking the children out as much as I can. Doing 180s but nothing seems to affect him.
How do I proceed? How do i keep hope alive?

[arsh18]

Mediation meeting upates - H asked for 50% split with kids and all other assets, when the mediator started talking to me and we got to specifics with kids I just broke down. I know I have to always act happy in front of H and I have been but yesterday was beyond my control. I told the mediator that i do not want the D and dont think it is right for us or the small children we have. H mentioned to her he plans to stay at home until the D and even after to raise the kids together and the mediator advised against it saying it is not healthy for the kids or me to do continue living together after the D, at which point I told H that i will not live together after the D gets finalized. The meeting conculded with her suggesting we get some couselling and then meet again in a month. H has declined to go to any counselling, I plan to go to show my committment to the cause. I dont understand why he wants to continue living together and yet ask for 50% custody
He keeps saying be amicable so it is good for us in the long run, how do I continue trying to support him through this process that I am opposed to?

Behavior at home - I have been patient and we are functioning like a well oiled machine at home. We had extended family staying with us until 2 weeks ago helping with baby so this is the first time after the BD that we are just by ourselves. But he still decided to proceed with it without any delay as soon as my MIL left. I try validating as much as possible and keep conversations minimal. His attitude to me is still hostile and regulary launches the attacks. I am working on detaching so his words still hurt me.I get out of the house as much as I can with the children to give us some distance and he has completely stopped socializing. Work and back home is all he does and continues to be on his phone 24x7.
He has become extremely helpful at home chores which is a 180 for him. Cooks, clean and even did our laundry for the first time ever. I am not sure how to read this.
I asked him to reconider his decision before we met the mediator, did not beg or plead but said it is not what our children deserve. He said he would never reconsider and 'after detaching from you I am more productive so will not give this up'.
In another convo he said this M has no love, affection or respect, so I just said I am sorry you feel that way but please speak for yourself I do not feel that, at which he got more bitter and launched another verbal attack
Any guidance on how I should proceed and how i have performed to some of these situations is much appreciated

[SteveLW]

Is there any history of mental illness with your H or his family? Something about all this just doesn't seem right. I can't put my finger on it, but it is almost as if he just isn't thinking clearly. Live together after D? Why even get a D then? How is living together facilitate a 50-50 split of custody?

The phone usage is still a red flag, but part of me is thinking there is more going on here. Let me ask you a very sensitive question, is there any way he might be a homosexual? The reason I ask is that he could keep up the illusion of family, and throw off anyone that might shame him for it, while being free (after the D) to do what he wants to do.

I may be way off with that. I just don't see a lot of sense in what he is wanting.

[NicoleR]

Arsh, just saw your update. I really seriously don't know what to say about your husband. Did you or the mediator ask his reason for wanting to keep living there? Maybe he feels guilty about leaving the kids or it makes more financial sense for him?

If you can go to a counselor yourself that might help a lot in getting input based on someone who can see and work with you regularly to figure this out.

Have you tried to do any investigating to see what your husband is doing when he's not at home? If you could find out where he's going maybe that would provide a clue. Until you know more about what triggered all this it's hard to know if you should keep doing DB in hopes of saving this or if it's a lost cause.

[arsh18]

Hi Steve & Nicole, thank you for your responses.

Is there any history of mental illness with your H or his family? Something about all this just doesn't seem right. I can't put my finger on it, but it is almost as if he just isn't thinking clearly.

There is no history with him or family but he keeps saying he was severely depressed last year and blames me for not understanding him. He neither discussed this with me or sought any medical help, I knew he wasn't himself but thought it was just work stress and dealing with a toddler and the fact that we were expecting another baby and the added responsbilities. One of his complaints for wanting D is that I did not support him thru his bad times last year.
So his plan that he has disclosed to me so far is, we get D ASAP then move to another state through the same jobs. He has said he will live together now and after D in the same home here but once we move to new state he does not share specifics. Until 2 weeks ago he could not wait to move out and get his own apartment, kept talking about it and then changed his plans. We are from a south east Asian background and although neither of us has any family here, work and live in a predominantly south east Asian community. I think he is worried by the social aspect of being judged by people around us for getting a D when we just had another baby. If he continues to live together he can keep it under the rugs and as soon as we move to a new state as per his plan it will be a clean slate to start afresh. He shares very little so this is just my analysis of the situation.
But it is very true, he is all over the map of what he wants, the only constant is he just wants the D immediately.

[arsh18]

Hi Nicole

Have you tried to do any investigating to see what your husband is doing when he's not at home? If you could find out where he's going maybe that would provide a clue.

We work at the same workplace so I know his whereabouts, he has been doing home and office in fact much less socializing than I would want him to. Until a month ago I even had access to his financial accounts so I know up until then money was not moved in a suspicious manner. I do not suspect a PA for this reason, no missing time or furious expenditures. the phone secrecy began after he started shutting down on me, until then we freely used each other's phones. I am trying to understand what he may be really going through but its just all over the place.

[Maika]

arsh! Firstly, I am so sorry for the mediation process and what a huge clusterf#$K this is. I haven't been through that process so I can't give you any good feedback. But, don't beat yourself up for getting emotional - you're a human being and this is just an atrocious situation and of course you're going to feel what you feel.

I totally understand him wanting to stay at home to keep up appearances. I know how South Asian communities are. He doesn't want to be looked badly upon and keep up his reputation. The fact that he wants to move away is just a sign of escapism and he doesn't have to deal with the negative backlash from the community. If you can, i don't think you should let him get his way with this. If he wants a D, he can get the hell out.

Also, him on the phone all the time is not a good sign. Even if you know his whereabouts and he's not doing anything, it could easily just be an EA for now. Maybe once he can get away, it could turn into something else. If there is a way for you to get intel, then do that just to confirm things. If not, then let it go and just move forward with DB anyways. The truth will eventually come out in some way. People in South Asian communities talk and he can't hide his nonsense forever.

My only thing for you is that keep your focus on you and your kids. Let him be and do whatever he's doing. you need to get healthy and heal.

[arsh18]

Thank you Maika, I will follow all your advice of trying to just concentrate on myself and the kids. He is too confused right now and flip flops every other day for me to figure out what he wants.

The change in him of doing house hold chores and taking at least half responsibility with everything at home, is this common? Is this his way of showing he can function independently or something else?

Setting boundaries-
I finally after almost 3 months of BD got to a point where I wanted to set boundaries with H. Since he has decided to stay at home and continue with the D process, his attitude and treatment of me has not changed.
1) absolutely no discussion about D or complaints in front of children
2) I gave him half hour each week a fixed day and time to bring up anything he wants about this. I told him I would not be replying back and if he gets too abusive shall even walk away at all other times.
I have a full time job and 2 small children, I am tired of crying and being miserable everyday so I had to set these boundaries with him.
He broke both these rules yesterday and started yelling at me in front of children, D3 understands when we are upset and started crying. I requested he not talk about it in front of children but he kept going and I ignored him and tried consoling D3. He was angrier and said I was not listening to him so I asked him to come back to me at the set time, until then I will not be participating in these conversations.

This is making him angrier but I have to set some ground rules to find my peace. Is this strategy ok in the DB process. Any advice on how to tweak this and handle the times he breaks it in a better way?

[EricC]

He keeps saying be amicable so it is good for us in the long run

I would agree with him. What he has been doing to you is quite cruel, but it does not change the fact. I consulted a divorce lawyer at some point, and that was the smartest thing he told me: What you do during the divorce will reflect all your lives. Among other things it is also a public record, God forbid you do something nasty and your kids decide one day to read about their parents divorce...

He has become extremely helpful at home chores which is a 180 for him. Cooks, clean and even did our laundry for the first time ever. I am not sure how to read this.

I think it may help you to try to look at him primarily as the father of your kids. I think this is what he is trying here. (He probably feels a lot of guilt too).

In another convo he said this M has no love, affection or respect, so I just said I am sorry you feel that way but please speak for yourself I do not feel that, at which he got more bitter and launched another verbal attack

Saying you were sorry how he felt was spot on. You may want to refrain from pointing out that you did not feel the same way... It is a form of pursuing ("We had good moments too...").

[EricC]

I think you did great to set ground rules. If he wants to live together, he needs to help with the situation, not making it worse (especially for kids). You did the right thing focusing on your daughter and not on him during his tantrum.

Not sure if it is possible, but you may want to find appropriate time when he is not angry, and tell him that this kind of behavior is unacceptable. You do not need to accuse him of anything. Just point out you agreed to keep the kids out of your conflicts and him screaming in front of the kids is unacceptable. He may scream again, do not retort, but do not back down either.

Hope this helps.

[Maika]

When you enforce boundaries, the other person will get angry because you're following through and standing up for yourself.

My W got pissed off me too in the beginning when I didn't just roll over for her. I know it's hard to keep your strength and composure in the beginning, but match his anger with you being calm and cool. It will have a huge effect.

In this situation, take your kids and just leave the room. if he gets abusive, then call the cops. I know that you probably don't want to do that, but you have to think of your kids. Him yelling at you in front of them is very traumatic. I remember those episodes with my parents and till to this day it reminds me how scary it was and how I felt helpless being such a little person.

Don't back down from your boundaries. They are in place for you and your kids. If he's going to go unhinged, he'll have to face the consequences. If he continues yelling at you even with you enforcing boundaries, I would seriously consider contacting authorities and getting help. Vanilla has amazing advice if things get more abusive and she'll be able to tell you what you can do.

[arsh18]

Thanks Eric, your input was very helpful. I still have a lot of things to work on.

I think it may help you to try to look at him primarily as the father of your kids.

I know what you are saying is true, it is just so hard to detach to that level yet, I am aware every minute that it is what I need to do, but mentally I am not there yet.

Saying you were sorry how he felt was spot on. You may want to refrain from pointing out that you did not feel the same way... It is a form of pursuing ("We had good moments too...").

Oh when put that way it sounds so pursuing and I have been attempting to completely back off giving him the space he needs. Thanks for pointing it out. I will work on the pursuit/distance aspect more.

[arsh18]

Thanks Maika, I will make sure to be calm and face him.

if he gets abusive, then call the cops.

He is not the kind of person he has become and even now it is just anger and verbal, I know probably all LBSs say it but even if the R does not work out I still want to make sure things are amicable because at the end of the day my children need a stable father. Every day I am hoping things improve and he gets out of the fog but I have come to realize I cannot control it.
I will make sure there is no harm to me or the children and I do believe strongly that it would never get there.
Thanks for all the guidance though Maika, it always helps me.

[arsh18]

First thing this morning H starts off saying he hardly slept and has been suffering from insomnia and been depressed for a year. I am dragging the D process and making him suffer. This is after 2.5 months of BD, said get that counseling done and your head sorted. I was quiet and have been out of his way taking kids out as much as I can. No idea what he expects from me and why he continues staying at home if I am so insufferable

[arsh18]

It is clear he needs some help , will not listen to my suggestion of getting some therapy. Has just decided the D papers finalized will be his redemption, family and friends suggestions for seeking help is of no use either. Any advice on how to proceed

[arsh18]

H has been calling me selfish because I have set a specific time to discuss D items and it is coming up soon.
Is it ok to talk about the following to him -
1) request to get some therapy something on lines of I want him to be happy too and it is important for our Ds that he is.
2) keeps saying wants freedom from burden of our M, is it okay to tell him I have emotionally set him free, have zero expectations from him and I have no control over the legal process?
I want to save the M at any cost, but want to appear I am not pursuing, are these things ok to do?

[arsh18]

How does someone in my sitch do NC or go dark? we live together taking care of 2 small Ds, communicate frequently about children, I do not initiate convo unless it is about children and keep my replies to him only to topic. H is angry when I do not explicitly keep him informed, it is a 180 for me because I used to communicate every single thought in my head earlier
1) I took kids out last week, when he came home and did not see us was angry that I did not tell him where we were going
2) I went to visit a sick friend and he got mad that I did not tell him how our friend was doing while H was home watching children, H never asked our friend directly how he was.
Is my action too independent as if I do not care anymore and is that why he is angry?
Any suggestions of how I should tweak this?
He is aware I am still very eager to keep the M because of the mediator episode and I do not know how to show him I have let him go? I am working on it but in the meantime I want to fake it until I actually make it.

[SteveLW]

Arsh, detach, don't go dark. Dark is for people that are separated physically. You need to validate his feelings. Respond when he asks things, just don't be the starter of conversations. sandi says treat him like you would the cashier at the store, be friendly, but not overly sharing.

Please forget about him getting therapy. Therapy is a waste of time until the person makes the decision that they need it. You can't control him or his depression. He has to deal with that.

On 1) "Sorry you feel that way. But since you are leaving the MR I feel no obligation to keep you informed of my every movement."

on 2) "Sorry you are angry about that, however, if you are interested in how he is doing I would suggest you ask me."

You are doing great. Keep it up. His anger is showing he isn't being honest about his feelings towards the MR.

READ THE VALIDATION THREAD.

[NicoleR]

Arsh,

I haven't been able to respond to your threads but one thing I had wanted to say is if your husband's plan is that you'll all move together to a new state, and will start to live separately at that time - does that work for you? It seems a bit unfair to be expected to move yourself and the kids just because your husband wants to be in a place where his bad actions are more anonymous. You'd be leaving behind your own home and network of friends. Perhaps you want to go too but if you don't then that's an area where you may need some external help to figure out where everyone will live and when.

I know how it is trying to detach with a little kid. You have two, and with a baby you're probably not getting much sleep. It seems it'll be a lot easier when you're actually divorced and your husband has the kids during his custody time. Then you'll have time to yourself to detach more. For the time being it seems you shouldn't put much more pressure on yourself because there isn't much time left in each day aside from caring for the children, working, housework, and cooking. It seems for people in our situations we have to depend more on activities that we can do with our kids and things that can be done at home while they're sleeping like meditation or reading or listening to music.

Perhaps you can do a few one-time things like getting a new hair style, buying some new clothing items, or going for a long walk alone to try to start detaching more.

I just wonder what's wrong with your husband. I was on a family camping trip this past weekend and I was the only single mom among 20 or 30 families. Every other family seemed happy together and were laughing and joking. I saw all the dads, even South Asian ones, caring for the kids and helping their wives. I don't know what's wrong with our husbands who see their family as so intolerable they must leave whereas most husbands love their families and feel responsible for them. What kind of upbringing did your husband have? Did he suffer instability in his family or was he treated badly by his parents? There must be some root cause. Not that you can control anything that he's doing and comparing him to all the great husbands and dads will only make you feel worse, but for me it was a reminder and realization of just how bad my husband really is.

I hope you can learn the right things to say and do to reduce your husband's anger and fighting in front of the kids. It seems like another adult needs to be in the house to mediate. He sounds out-of-control and he's trying to further weaken you when you're already in a damaged and weak state. Too bad you can start living separately immediately to get out of this toxic situation.

I really hope for a quick positive outcome for you, whatever it may be. This current situation just sounds so so difficult and you're doing the best you can.

[arsh18]

Arsh, detach, don't go dark. Dark is for people that are separated physically.

Thank you Steve for clarifying that, I have a long way to go detaching, I am working on validation. I will read up both the threads again.

[arsh18]

Hi Nicole,

Perhaps you can do a few one-time things like getting a new hair style, buying some new clothing items, or going for a long walk alone to try to start detaching more.

I have been treating myself to some shopping therapy in a small scale, but yes GAL for moms with small children is almost impossible.

Not that you can control anything that he's doing and comparing him to all the great husbands and dads will only make you feel worse, but for me it was a reminder and realization of just how bad my husband really is.

oh, that is one of the worst feelings really, seeing happy families and knowing our babies will never have that basic need fulfilled.

I really hope for a quick positive outcome for you, whatever it may be. This current situation just sounds so so difficult and you're doing the best you can.

- Thanks Nicole, there are times that I feel a physical separation might actually be better than living in constant pressure, nonetheless, I have no choice but to somehow be strong enough to make it a happy home for the children. Like everyone else here some days I am okay and some days I just cant beat the feeling of gloom and doom.

[arsh18]

Speaking of goal setting and working on self, WAH seems to be exactly on that track. He has in fact said 'after I let you go I am more productive'
- feels he is a better father and spends more quality time with kids, I do not agree to this because he is angry more often at D3
- has lost weight before and after BD and maintains a good diet
- extremely engaged with house hold chores, cooks, cleans which is new territory for him
Is this typical of a WAS? why would they need a D to become a better person or work on themselves? I have been acknowledging everything he does around the house and get a grunt in return. Although I did not do this until now, I have finally let him be independent with all this since he seems to be wanting it his own way. Am I handling this well?

[NicoleR]

Arsh,

I don't know. In January when my husband wanted to get divorced he spoke of getting a clean slate and having the freedom to make his own decisions. I guess they view us as shackles from which they need to break free to find their happiness. It's just hard to imagine how destroying one's own family could lead to happiness. We can't see it because we'd never be so selfish.

[arsh18]

One of those days where I am trying to put in words the pain I feel.
I keep trying to stay away from home as much as possible. My GAL with 2 small children is not something crazy fun but just kid friendly activities, especially with D3 and leaving baby home with H sometimes. Convos at home are restricted to children and only when necessary. No friendliness, chit chat or casual daily updates. H still talks to me with lot of anger and derision even for simple questions not pertaining to MR at all.
It still hurts so much, the fact that the MR is on a slow death, H's hate and contempt for me and my inability to change anything about saving the MR all these are like thousands swords every single day. Even after 3 months of BD is it supposed to hurt so much? I have horrible days and not so horrible days, the not so horrible days are slowly increasing. in my case I never got to the anger phase. I went from disbelief to depression and denial to disappointment and going through slow acceptance. Why am I not angry? otherwise I am such a hot blooded person with a short fuse. Is this common?

[SteveLW]

arsh, we all go through this journey in our own way. You will feel anger at some point. It is one of the stages we LBSs go through. But I wouldn't worry that you are not there yet.

Remember, kill him with kindness. When he is unfriendy, you remain friendly. When he is angry you remain calm. When he responds with derision you respond with softness. Likely he is wanting you to snap back, be angry, and return his derision. Then in his mind he can be "we aren't getting along, this is the right decision!" He is trying to create what he wants. Don't fall for it.

As far as pain, yes the pain lasts a long time. Even now I still have moments of pain from things that happened in January. Things she said in February. The fact that she was willing to throw away our family for a selfish dream of being on her own. And we are now 3 months into R.

There is nothing fun about DBing. No one ever woke up in the morning during their sitch and thought "Yeay! I get to work on detachment today!" Even the GAL feels more like work than fun. Especially when your sitch is weighing heavy on your heart. I would be out with my friends and my mind would be back in the middle of my sitch.

So anger will come. But the pain will linger. No matter what happens you'll feel pangs of regret over things well into the future.

[arsh18]

Steve, thank you thank you thank you!! This is what I wanted to boost my energy. Kill with Kindness is so perfectly said. I am framing that and putting it up on my mind's mantel to keep reminding myself of it for a long time to come.

Remember, kill him with kindness. When he is unfriendy, you remain friendly. When he is angry you remain calm. When he responds with derision you respond with softness. Likely he is wanting you to snap back, be angry, and return his derision. Then in his mind he can be "we aren't getting along, this is the right decision!"

For now I have decided to consider H as my 3rd child throwing extreme tantrums. I have infinite patience for my babies, H needs that too right now. If he continues with D process I cannot stop it but I will not abet it either.

I am all set to KWK (Kill with kindness)!!

[Maika]

Are you able to go to an IC to help you through this time?

Also, separation under same roof is hell. I did it for a few weeks and it was mental torture. I finally was able to breathe when I got my own place.

[arsh18]

Hi Maika, yes I am thinking of getting some IC, have scheduled an appt. Separation under same roof is hard, even if I am a little cheerful having spent some time outside, it gets snubbed once I get back. Seems like it is hard for his mood to not upset me because if he is in one of those he will take a punch at me with his words. But as long as he continues living at home, the kids have both parents and just maybe a chance to R if he even tries to see any positive changes in me. Well, I have to make the most of whatever I have.

I have always wondered, are there any stats that show which sitch has a better chance at recon? physical separation ones or staying under same roof after BD?

[arsh18]

This is more of a generic question,for a LBS wanting to save MR, is mediation better or a contested D? Through mediation it is less hurtful financially but for someone wanting to save the MR, a contested D gives more time before the D is finalized. So for DB wouldnt a contested D be the better choice for a LBS, more time to 180, GAL and hopefully this will be enough for WAS to see changes. In DR MWD mentions that mediation has better chances for couples to recon after D, but the timelines to save the MR would be much shorter.What is the general DB advice?

[SteveLW]

I've seen arguments for and against both. Sometimes contesting will test the resolve of the WAS. However sometimes being accommodating leaves an impression on the WAS.

In your sitch I think you should contest. I think your husband is trying to make this as easy on himself as possible. You can continue to tell him that you aren't giving up and show him by fighting the divorce.

[NicoleR]

Arsh, I consulted with a Christian counselor who said "don't give him the easy divorce he wants!" regarding mediation. But the mediator with whom I spoke said "why should a court get to make decisions about your family when you can make them yourselves?"

Here's my personal thinking - if your husband is set on a divorce then I think mediation is fine. Let him get a quick and easy divorce so he can start to experience the paradise he thinks is awaiting him. Let him find out what it's really like to be divorced and alone with all the time in the world to enjoy his hobbies. It might be the greatest thing in the world for a while. Then it might start to get old. I think he your husband has to experience the free life they dream to have before they can think about what they've done. Perhaps once your husband gets everything out of his system, and you're living separately and out of the 'pressure cooker' situation you're currently in, then he'll start to have more fond memories of you and will start to regret what he's done. Since it's happening so fast he might also wake up one day and realize he threw everything away and try to fix it again. That would create a dilemma for you - would you take him back after divorce? What if you end up like me, let your husband back and he leaves again? And what if your husband wants to come back but only as a roommate or as a parent? There are things to ask yourself about the future, but for now, in your particular situation, it seems there's a higher chance your husband will come to regret his actions with a quick and easy divorce than to change his mind during a long contested divorce.

[NicoleR]

Sorry I typed that so fast because I need to go to bed, but I wanted to make a correction - "I think our husbands have to experience the free life they dream to have before they can think about what they've done."

[arsh18]

Thanks Steve and Nicole. I see merits and demerits to both. For now I will try the mediation route, with both of us wanting opposite things it might not work but he at least cannot blame me for not wanting to mediate and listen to his side. Well, if it fails he will get angrier about not agreeing to his terms so it seems like a lose-lose with either option at this point.

[arsh18]

Sorry I typed that so fast because I need to go to bed, but I wanted to make a correction - "I think our husbands have to experience the free life they dream to have before they can think about what they've done."

Well, H wont leave home for now in my case and has decided to get D finalized while living together. While I know physical separation is so hard, this is a new level of mental hell believe me. It is slow death by a thousand knives everyday. Everything I say and do is wrong.

[EricC]

Speaking of goal setting and working on self, WAH seems to be exactly on that track. He has in fact said 'after I let you go I am more productive'
- feels he is a better father and spends more quality time with kids, I do not agree to this because he is angry more often at D3
- has lost weight before and after BD and maintains a good diet
- extremely engaged with house hold chores, cooks, cleans which is new territory for him
Is this typical of a WAS? why would they need a D to become a better person or work on themselves? I have been acknowledging everything he does around the house and get a grunt in return. Although I did not do this until now, I have finally let him be independent with all this since he seems to be wanting it his own way. Am I handling this well?

If the above is true, that is good, correct? Good for him. Just do not buy the crap that this is because of the BD. Even if he believes it (which I doubt) that is complete nonsense. For one, nobody feels a better father because they asked for D.

[arsh18]

If the above is true, that is good, correct? Good for him. Just do not buy the crap that this is because of the BD.

Yes, I am just going with the flow, nothing much I can do anyway. Be and let him be for now, he wants to fast track the D he can move as fast as he pleases.

Just had one of those days again where H has been condescending and angry, and I let him get to me.

1) H - I have told you to not do xxx a million times you dont get it
I- I m sorry you have not, I wasnt aware. Will not do it going forward now that I know.

2) I - D3 needs xxx for school and we need to share work
H- When were you planning on telling me?
I - I must have texted you
H- No you have not
I - oh i remember I mentioned while discussing the school work other day
H goes silent
For 2 ppl living under same roof, communication is rock bottom and H treats me like I am the biggest goof ball making mistakes every step of the way. Although I did not show any emotion, I had a good cry later and had to tell myself I am an above avg intelligent person just going thru a bad phase. Some days it is 1 step forward and 2 steps back.

[arsh18]

The mediator H got us has suggested we get family counseling and see her back in a month. I am going to the counseling and H has declined it. I was expecting he will start by week 3 about the next appointment with mediator, but lay behold it is just week 2 and he started it already after I have had one appointment with the counselor

H - How long before we can continue with the mediation process? Did the counsellor say how many more sessions you need?
I - She has not given me any number of sessions, I just have seen her once so far.
H - It was f-ing embarassing the way you behaved with the L last time, this time you better have your emotions in control.
I - I am sorry you feel that way, I got emotional as this is hard for me and I feel what I feel.
H - So you are the f-ing victim now, after treating me like s*** for all these years?
I- It is unfortunate you feel that is what happened
H - cuts in and says it is agian about you here and you being the victim? Rolls eyes and makes other facial gestures
I - Please proceed with what you need to do, I do not want you to be miserable so do what you think is right and convo ended due to some interruption by D3

He still has a lot of anger and resentment. I am patient and calm which truly is a 180 for me, I was a spit fire before. I know for certain that what he says is not true, we have had disagreements but he has convinced himself that I am to be blamed and blown things out of proportion. I am not sure if Hs hurry for D will even give a chance for him to see the changes in me. GAL is still limited but I try staying out of his way and out of the house as much as possible with kids. A big difference this time is I did not cry to sleep at night after this incident and I was more prepared mentally. I will stand up to my M until the day D gets finalized but seems like anything I do will not make a difference to Hs resolve. Looking for advice on how I fared and how I can improve

[SteveLW]

Very well done Arsh on the validation, and not apologizing for being emotional. He definitely is trying to play up the justifications for what he is doing, to soothe his own conscience I am sure.

I do not like the way he talks to you. Has he always used harsh language in interactions with you? Further, he is dropping f-bombs in front of the kids? (You said interruption by D3 not too long after he used that kind of language.

[LoneWlf]

Arsh- I really have to speak up because when he starts swearing at you that is highly disrespectful and in my opinion the conversation ends right there. I would simply state to him that you are not comfortable with his tone and where this is going and until he can talk to you like an adult then this conversation is over and walk away. A lot of times people say practice what you preach- I can honestly tell you I have never swore - yelled - cursed, hit or cheated on my W. I feel that this is the mother of my child and I will not disrespect her in that way. Good luck on your journey.Blessings!

[arsh18]

Steve and LoneWlf, thanks so much for your responses.
Steve, good catch about D3, yes all this was right in front of her. In my efforts to validate and stay calm, I did not enforce my boundaries of no D talk in front of D3 and D talks only at certain times and he threw them right out the door.
He has never been disrespectful in the 15 years before, has always been loving and supportive. I always thought he is the most patient person until BD when I realized he was a dormant volcano that was building up inside in a unhealthy way. Since BD he has been angry, bitter, condescending and disrespectful.
And swearing in front of kids is just not how he was before.

I need to learn to combine aspects of staying calm, validating and enforcing my boundaries

when he starts swearing at you that is highly disrespectful and in my opinion the conversation ends right there. I would simply state to him that you are not comfortable with his ton

I keep giving him credit for who he was before the BD and try telling myself he is in a bad place and I need to be patient. But I need to stand my ground and stop buckling under pressure. I will definitely work on that, thanks LoneWlf.

[25yearsmlc]

**I keep giving him credit for who he was before the BD and try telling myself he is in a bad place and I need to be patient. But I need to stand my ground and stop buckling under pressure. I will definitely work on that, thanks LoneWlf.**


yes, you are looking at who you saw in the past and not seeing who he is now. Join the club. I speak from experience, which is not to say it's fine for me to project my situation onto yours. I'll try to balance it all, but hope you can hear my hard learned lessons.

It's important not to accept the unacceptable - let alone based on their potential as spouses. My children all have expressed to me that they used to be more frustrated with me for putting up with abusive behavior, than they were at X for doing it. They had written him off already but thought I at least could see the light.

After reading the ranting manifesto X sent our kids last month, and his version of our marital history, which I KNOW to be factually false, I'm better able to depersonalize X's choices AND I can much better see my children's point of view.

X drove across the (family) car across a corn field and right off a cliff.

Maybe what my T told me after she read the manifesto, (in which HE "bled" for us and listed terms for the kids to have a relationship with him, and blah blah blah) will help you with an analogy.

T said "You recall your X and m when it was like Hawaii. Lush and green and comfortable.

But now it's spewing lava. You have to get away from the lava or you & your kids will be burned. Try to stop looking back to see if it's a lush green island again. The lava is still flowing."


If you were to describe "Abuse" to someone else, abuse which did not include violence, wouldn't someone raising their voice or making demeaning remarks, or cursing or criticizing someone for something trivial or invalid, or a combination of these, count?

I don't use the term loosely. And he did it in front of your D3.

What boundaries do you have, at least internally? Do you think your h will respect you more or less, if you allow those boundaries to be crossed?

I operated under the illusion that my X would "See the light" and how my loyalty to him and our m, would be rewarded in time.

Because we were once very happy (I found a love letter of his to me, from year 11. I am glad I found it, so I know that reality existed).

X's potential to return to his old self was what kept me accepting the unacceptable for far too long.

D28 told me that she "tends to go for unavailable people" in dating, and that she's in T now.

Says it relates to the dynamic she saw in our m the past few years, and X's unavailability as a parent as she was growing up. Sometimes we stay in a M even when it's really hard, for the kids. I don't think that is unreasonable. Sometimes you leave for the kids, though. And that's not unreasonable either.

Anyhow, figure out what your boundaries are, and what you think you can do to enforce them. If you actually do not have any boundaries you are wiling to enforce, talk to someone about that, and what you are fighting for.

With a 6 month old baby, it's awfully hard not to let fear keep you stuck. And I get that.

Food for thought.

[arsh18]

"You recall your X and m when it was like Hawaii. Lush and green and comfortable.

But now it's spewing lava. You have to get away from the lava or you & your kids will be burned. Try to stop looking back to see if it's a lush green island again. The lava is still flowing."

Hi 25, what you say is absolutely true. H is not who he is, I desperately try to seek the lost him today but he currently is not the same person. In fact the H i had would have hated this new guy.

Hs main accusation for wanting D is that I have subjugated him and controlled his life and he needs to seek his own identity. In my attempts to do a 180 on being less controlling I may have become meek or it may just be that the anger he has I cannot match. Either way not standing up for myself is not who I am and I need to set my boundaries straight especially since D3 is like a sponge at this age learning from what transpires around her.

My Hawaai is not lush and green now, it is a lava spewing volcano that has erupted after 10 years.

I should really work on enforcing boundaries while incorporating the DB strategies. Thanks for your guidance.

[NicoleR]

Arsh, just for the sake of asking - do you believe you were controlling to your husband? Is that something you recognize in yourself or is that just an excuse he created to justify the divorce?

[25yearsmlc]

Of course everyone can and should look at their behaviors and choose what they want to work on. But sometimes I think the LBS'ers stare at themselves too much b/c hey "we are all we control." The fact is, sometimes nothing we have done justifies what the WAS's are doing.

Besides, Most spouses who want out, or are having A's, use the term "controlling" for an LBS.

Because what other "Flaw" can they use to justify walking out on a spouse and 2 small kids, including an enfant??

If you are not an alcoholic, violent, hiding money or cheating, the remaining term that comes up here the most is "controlling."

Maybe the other categories tend to know why things are happening and don't come to this site.

And for a grown man to need to go find himself b/c his wife, who just had his second child, is "controlling", reeks of excuse making.

But only you know your m or you.

Hang in there, and protect yourself and your babies.

[NicoleR]

I'm just curious because my husband said the same thing. I came to the conclusion that I was too controlling but that's not why he left.

[LoneWlf]

I think this too controlling comment is part due to the fact that as a relationship matures we often change to facilitate the others needs. At times forgetting our own - codependency. After doing this for a while it becomes normal and we tend to lose ourselves. From here it is easier too blame the other person for taking away our identity and our needs. Because we have lost these key elements of our lives we feel the other person was controlling. I too have been accused of being controlling but after thinking about it for a while I realized that all my decisions were based on what was best for my family. I even discussed this with my friends, family and my priest. They thought the opposite that I bent over backwards to accommodate my W. Just my 2 cents.

[Natash]

I too have been accused of being controlling but after thinking about it for a while I realized that all my decisions were based on what was best for my family. I even discussed this with my friends, family and my priest. They thought the opposite that I bent over backwards to accommodate my W. Just my 2 cents.

I read this and had to comment. Every word but Priest is exactly the same for me and my sitch. My WW would drop a controlling comment hear or there in the past and I knew that she grew up with a lot of freedom and a single mom. Many times the comment "your not my dad!" would be hurled at me. After she left, I thought about it. Was I too controlling? The conclusion I came to was I had certain expectations and, like you said, I made my decisions based on what is best for our family. My friends and family say that I have been more than accomodating and many others wouldnt put up with her actions. I think it comes down to NGS and if we ever get to the point of recon, this is one major area that the MR dynamic WILL be different because of this forum making me aware and understand a) the old MR and b) what will be different in a new MR.

[Rose888]

LoneWlf and Natash, I obviously can't tell from what you've posted if you were controlling or not.

However, the argument "I wasn't controlling because I was doing what was best for my family" gives the impression of someone who is unable to see other people's point of view.

Most marital disagreements are between two people who each believe they are doing what is best for the family.

The person who wants to save as much money as possible vs the person who wants to travel and experience the world--both doing what they think is best.

The person who seeks as much career advancement as possible vs the person who wants their spouse to turn down work travel to spend more time with their young children--both doing what they think is best for the family.

The person who teaches their kid that every activity deserves 100% dedication versus the person who teaches their kids it's ok to dabble and explore many things--both doing what they think is best.

The person who never leaves their kid overnight versus the person who feels adult-only trips are important--both doing what they think is best.

Doing what you think is best for your family doesn't keep you from being controlling.

[LoneWlf]

Thanks for your input Rose- and for allowing me to see it that way.

[arsh18]

Thanks for your responses 25, Nicole, LoneWlf, Natash and Rose.

I do not want to paint myself as an innocent victim in the hands of a monster. H has been a very loving and supportive person prior BD. I definitely have issues that I should work on but nothing to me justifies a D.
I understand WASs think differently so patience is a huge 180 for me and I actually think I have been doing that well although the imminent D doesnt make it seem so
Ours is a classic case of a very busy couple failing to scale up to the hard work and responsibilites that come with having children. While I thought we were ready for baby 2, after BD H says he never was. Like all the other things he brings up now, this was never once voiced.
But he has continued to be a good father to D3, accepted baby after a few months but now is very affectionate towards her and takes good care of her.

do you believe you were controlling to your husband? Is that something you recognize in yourself

Nicole, Upon reflection I have realized I have been short tempered, critical and especially the last year in bad moods because I had felt H did not contribute much at home and I had to manage a toddler, house hold chores while pregnant. I failed to communicate this in a loving way and was nagging him.
I have not controlled his behavior but he has said he feels I have ruled him with guilt
I always plan life ahead and have a fall back plan, be it career or personal life and he seemed to be a willing partner until now, he now says early on he realized there was not much use arguing once I made up my mind so he just stopped trying. Unfortunately I was not aware and he has built resentment internally, again all my analysis I may be completely off.
The cruel irony is that this is so out of my control and H was the only one I never had a back up plan for, to me it was for life.

And for a grown man to need to go find himself b/c his wife, who just had his second child, is "controlling", reeks of excuse making

25, He has complained of depression for over a year now without seeking any help for it. I still believe what we have is a marital crisis and he is throwing away our MR for how he sees things now.

At times forgetting our own - codependency. After doing this for a while it becomes normal and we tend to lose ourselves.

Lonewlf, this definitely could have happened to us. I understand now that it was a very enmeshed and codependent MR, H just decided having met young and married young he has missed out on things he would have done otherwise.

The conclusion I came to was I had certain expectations and, like you said, I made my decisions based on what is best for our family.

Natash, in my sitch I probably would have thought doing what I did was best for us too but H never voiced his disagreements.


Not to wallow in self pity, but what [censored] in my sitch is he hit me at my lowest, shut down soon after my delivery and BDd when baby was 2 months. I probably suffered more because of the state I was in postpartum and made all the mistakes of begging, crying, pursuit but did not lose patience.
I will never give up on the MR, because I still believe our sitch does not warrant a D, my babies deserve a parents full time and because H has been a loving, respectable person in the past.
But doing this while enforcing boundaries is healthy for me and the kids, I am so grateful to everyone who is able to advise me through this.

[25yearsmlc]

I don't get the feeling you are wallowing in self pity. I think you have an infant at home, and that's the time in women's lives when we are most vulnerable. That is just true.

And it's a truly lousy time to wound your wife with selfish or dishonest behavior.

That is just true.

((( )))

[arsh18]

Thank you 25, your perspective helps me understand that I need my self worth in place and still can continue standing up to my M.

All, I have a question on father's day gift LBS etiquette. I know we are not supposed to buy any gifts/ show materialistic appreciation. H got me a shutterfly product with the kids pic on it for mothers day. On mothers day itself, told me he sure wants a D and will set up an appointment with mediator and never wished me but a few days later had D3 give this to me and said shipping was delayed.
should I give him a fathers day gift? if so how thoughtful on a scale of 1 to 10?

[Davide]

Arsh,

Let me add how impressed I am by you and how you are handling this situation with a little baby and another child, and your H still in the house. You are doing an amazing job all things considered.

In terms of fathers day I wouldnt buy a damn thing. He is walking out on the R with a little baby, I think he has forfeited any right to a "good dad" present.

[LoneWlf]

Arsh- I'm with Davide. With the BD he fired you from your job. He is not your father. I would keep civil wish him Happy fathers Day and no more. Stay strong!

[arsh18]

Thanks Davide and Lonewlf, guess H wont be getting that personalized mug for him to have coffee at work after all.

Yesterday, during a convo about D 6 months, he slipped up and called me honey but I behaved as if I did not even notice it. 2 weeks ago, he called me sweetie in the middle of a convo and there was an awkward pause between us, he took some time and came back 10 times angrier as if he slipping was my fault somehow. I know there are not positives in anyway because yesterday he also confirmed he is setting up a follow up appointment with mediator. IC thinks it may be because his anger is reducing and its very tiring for someone to be angry for so long. But these slip ups have never happened since BD before now, is this common with a WAS or is it some kind of test?

[SteveLW]

I agree with your IC! Remaining angry requires energy. Especially if it is someone you care about. And he clearly cares about you. It doesn't sounds like he called you sweetie or honey in a manipulative way. That is the only way that would be a negative to be called those things. So yes I think his anger is lessening. I think if you can continue to stall he will eventually come around.

arsh you are doing great. Stay the course.

[LoneWlf]

Arsh- Great job!It is these small victories that give us a glimmer of hope. As you already know this is a long journey. Take the time to enjoy these tidbits of peace yet remain vigilant in your objective of detachment. Stay Well!

[arsh18]

Steve and Lonewlf, thank you for your responses.

Of course such joys are short lived. I was at the mediator suggested counseling today so he wanted an update.
H - what happened at your counseling? How many more sessions? (it was supposed to be MC but since he wouldnt go it has become IC)
I - It was fine, I am talking to her. She needs to see me for more sessions
H - I dont understand why you are dragging your feet with this. I want to proceed here.
I - I am not dragging my feet and I am not in your way, do whatever you want to do.
D3 started talking to us so I diverted attention to her and just said it is not the right time to discuss this and he left room.
I was very calm throughout, he was not crazy angry but there was disdain for sure. There was no swearing or talking me down.
I dont think I validated though.
Although I do not show it, these talks engulf me with an impending gloom so I miss a DB beat.
How did I fare please assess and let me know. I am sure he will set up the next appointment with the mediator now, there was nothing I could do to stop him.

[Davide]

Arsh,

It sounds like you handled things fine. You kept calm and collected, you answered his question factually and you called him out on his BS. It doesnt sound like there was anything to validate there. It is hard for me not to get angry at a guy who would do this with a 6 month old baby. You are doing a great job keeping your sh#t together.

Let him set up the appointment with the mediator. Let him do all the work. It sure seems like he wants you to do it for him.

Hang in there, you are doing great.

[LoneWlf]

Arsh- job well done by setting your boundaries,standing your ground and by staying calm the whole way. We know you got this!Stay Well!!

[arsh18]

Thanks Davide and Lonewlf. Unlike other WWs I read about, H is very determined and has already set up an appt with the mediator peacefully. he currently is waiting for me to 'get my head fixed' by talking to counselor so we can proceed with mediation. I breaking down in front of the mediator delayed the process last time and as per H embarrassed him.

[arsh18]

Hi all,
I have never worked on setting goals before as part of DB and want to start concentrating on that going forward. I need input from you all in determining if I am on the right path. All goals are short term for 1-2 weeks time frame, once I achieve them I plan to keep adding to the list.

Self
- Meditate starting with 5 mins to reach 10 mins everyday in 2 weeks
- Workout 5 days/week
- GAL at least 1-2 hrs per week leaving kids with H

Family
- Play as family with Ds and try including H for up to 5 mins in 2 weeks, start off with playing just with kids at home

R
- validate more
- be cheerful and patient (currently doing)
- appreciate H for doing house chores (currently doing)

I need help in adding more goals to my short term list, considering we are in the mediation phase I do not want any hard to achieve items on my list and I am so weary of adding wrong things on my list

Is it okay to pay compliments on their looks or on what they are wearing?

H is a painter and paints a lot and displays it around the house, should I show appreciation towards this or will it be pursuit? He used to paint and show it to me earlier but stopped sharing things with me last 6 months even though I asked him to. As part of DB I have not shown interest in his activities since he clearly has cut me out of his life.

[Dtrmned]

Just stopping by Arsh!

Thank you for your help and input in my sitch.

I keep track on yours but haven't posted much in response to anyone.

My advice is to detach and GAL. So far they are definitely helping me keep my head about each day. They also seem to be the hardest and very counter intuitive as to what your heart and mind are telling you what to do to save your MR. Remember, this is not about saving your MR. If that happens, that is great! The goal is to get to be a better you. If your H notices and decides to refocus and you both decide together to do it, great. If not, and it continues down this path, you are much further along than you would be had you just wallowed and waited.

Just my opinion FWIW.

Best wishes...

[arsh18]

Thanks JS. I am working on all DB aspects, my next step is to set and achieve some goals so I have some deadlines to hit and my mind doesnt wander where there is only pain and hurt.

[Vanilla]

This is a terrific start love these goals, let's really make these work for you.

The key is to make them emotional and current tense (as if achieved)

So:


Self
- I am peacefully meditating by starting with 5 mins of meditation and within 2 weeks I am achieving 10 minutes every day

- i energetically workout 5 days every week

- I plan a GAL actvity for a minimum of 1-2 hrs per week and I have planned baby sitting

------------------------

These are your goals exclude H as you have no control over H. You can't try in a goal. Try will never work! So your family goal needs redoing. It's just not a goal.

Family
- Play as family with Ds and try including H for up to 5 mins in 2 weeks, start off with playing just with kids at home
------------------------

These are wishes not goals remember who are you validating, when why where, how many?
R
- I am strong on my validation techniques and I use these 3 times daily as appropriate with the key people in my life

- be cheerful and patient (currently doing) ....not a goal

- I praise when praise is due showing appreciation when others make my life easier and this leads to pleasant interactions and daily gratitude

----------------------

Can I suggest that you word these in your own words?

V

[LoneWlf]

Hi Arsh, Looks like you are headed in the right direction - Just her to support and cheer you on !! Keep going. Stay Well!

[Maika]

Hey arsh!

I saw your message in my thread and thought I'd reply in yours for continuity to what's happening with you.

I was able to refine, reframe, and refocus my goals thanks to advice from Vanilla in particular. I see that she has given you excellent pointers. How you write out your goals is extremely important and the choice of words.

Where I can contribute is more on strategy I guess. I've always had goals, but my problem was that I tried to do all of them at the same time. Very unrealistic.

So, I have still set big goals for myself, but I have prioritized them. I also started with goals that I could achieve quickly so that I could build confidence in my ability to execute them and also develop self-discipline.

Take a look at your goals and see which ones you immediately want to tackle. Then think about phasing other goals in. So, I recently rehauled my goals, and I started with a basic one - I want to wake up every day at 5AM. I will do that for a week straight and see how it goes. And then I added in meditation for ten minutes.

Next week, I am going to add in journaling my day plan. So, I want to write down three things I want to accomplish at work that day and three personal things that I want to be mindful about.

And so build on small successes that will exponentially grow. This process has helped me a lot. I also break up my larger goals into smaller pieces. And the larger goal has an outcome associated with it, followed up by smaller goals and commitment to the process. If you commit to the process and keep the larger outcome in mind, then that will help you to be mentally strong.

I strongly believe in committing to the process and following through. And making the decision about you do this because you are this person - for example, I don't miss my workouts because I am a healthy person. the key word there is - don't. Many people say - can't. That gives you the wiggle room to get out. The previous sentence is about your identity.

I also love Michael Jordan's take on decision-making. He was once asked how he was able to train so hard and be on top of his game all the time. He said, and I am paraphrasing - I always think deeply about why I want to do something. After that, once I make the decision to do it, I never think about it again.

So, think about your 'why'.. and then have it crystal clear and make a decision. And then don't look back.

Anyways, I have learned a lot of this from just reading and trying things out. Main takeaways - commit to the process; think and make the decision; make big goals; start with the easy low hanging fruit to build confidence.

[EricC]

Arsh,

Good stuff. Keep it up! No reason to pay compliments IMO.

[arsh18]

Thank you LoneWlf, V, Maika and Eric. I have actually been working on V's suggestion of writing up the goals again in my own words, I will post them tomorrow but some other $hit hit the fan today so wanted to vent here first.
As usual I was all set to take Ds out before H could come home so we spend as little time as possible. I bring them back by D6 month's bed time typically.
H was in bad mood before we left, the house was in a mess with 2 kids, he said "put some efforts cleaning it" I said " sorry, its hard in the morning rush leave it as is, I will get back home and will clean up once the kids get to bed". By the time we got back he had cleaned the house so I thanked him and said sorry I didnt have a chance earlier to clean it.
Both the kids were in a nasty mood today once we got back, both of them were crying and I was trying to get them both to sit and feed dinner.
H- I have decided to move out on aug 1, i have booked an apartment.
I - Ok xxxx
H - you are sitting on your @$$ doing nothing about this, i had said I want to move to another state you havent made that happen thru work.
H- it is too late to sell house this year, it will have to be next year now.
I- were you expecting me to look into selling the house? I wasnt aware.
H- No, but you are not doing anything, not willing to talk and move things forward. I am going to f**ing add in the D as a clause that you move
I- what do you want to talk about, tell me
H - Just Call you mother to help you out, i cant stay here any longer like this.
I - my mom is not in a position to come, its fine.
All this with 2 kids crying loudly and I rushing around to get them to start eating.
What i have not told him so he does not feel guilty and not shared on the forum is, my mom has gone into a deep depression over my sitch. For someone from my cultural background, D is not a common thing and there is a lot of worry and stigma about it. She is currently being treated for depression so I talk to her over the phone bare minimum.
I was very upset when she got into this state and couldnt bear the guilt but I told myself I have bigger problems to worry about and I cannot handle how she manages her problems, she at least has my father looking after her.
My LRT and not initiating R and D convos, H is seeing them as not wanting to sort things with him. As much as I know I have to be strong, it is heart wrenching to know that he finds living with me so unbearable that he has to leave the little Ds too.
I couldnt validate or state my boundaries about no swearing, the situation was very tense with the children crying so I just neglected him and started paying attention to Ds.
Am I terribly failing at DB, I know it is to improve myself and I do feel better but there does not seem to be an ounce of change in him. My efforts to save the MR dont seem to be paying off in anyway.
It is just so hard emotionally trying to keep it all together and continuing with whatever normalcy is possible in life. Sorry I am very emotional so the post is very long.

[Davide]

Why do you think you are failing? I see you heroically keeping your calm in a complete sh@t-storm of a situation. You are doing a great job, especially under those conditions.

That said, I think the situation might actually be better if/when your H leaves the house. Getting distance from him would be really healthy for you. The less you have to interact with his nastiness the better for your detachment and mental health.

You are doing great. Hang in there.

[LoneWlf]

Very tough situation Arsh. I am feeling for you. There are both pros and cons to separating. When you are both under the same roof , your H can physically see the transformation of you being the best you. When you are separated it may make him miss you even more(absence makes the heart grow fonder. I think you handled your sitch the best you could. Stay positive!

[Maika]

Arsh - you are in a tough situation right now. He is behaving like a fool and immature child. I know you want to focus on your goals, and you should, but there are more urgent matters to figure out.

What are your plans once he moves to the apartment? Is he going to help out with the kids? Start planning for his departure and what that will look like.

I will disagree here and say that let the separation happen. You are going through ups and downs based on his moods and reactions, and with two little kids it is very hard to get DBing down and also take the time and space for yourself. I can tell you that most people who do in-house separation are highly miserable. There's tons of folks here who did that and it was madness.

I did it for almost a month and it was hell. Only when I physically separated, was I able to take the time and space and not deal with ridiculous moods from W.

So, don't worry about him moving out. Just worry about what life will be for you and the kids and how you will transition to essentially being a single parent.

I think this is most likely your priority. In the mean time before he moves out, stay cool and chill, validate and have your boundaries in place.

I am so sorry you're in this situation. I can't imagine how this is with such little children. He's truly an a$$hole.

[arsh18]

Davide, LoneWlf and Maika, It really helps me when I read that folks are supporting me , thank you for your responses.

That said, I think the situation might actually be better if/when your H leaves the house. Getting distance from him would be really healthy for you. The less you have to interact with his nastiness the better for your detachment and mental health.

You are doing great. Hang in there.

Thanks Davide, it might turn out to be better, rather I have no other choice but to hope so and make the best of what I am dealt with. It is just so hard to compartmentalize.

When you are separated it may make him miss you even more(absence makes the heart grow fonder

Thanks Lonewlf, I have been trying to be the best I can be but it doesnt seem to affect him, he has decided to turn a blind eye to it. So I am telling myself he needs to go on his own journey to figure out the root of his pain and depression is inside him and not me.

What are your plans once he moves to the apartment? Is he going to help out with the kids? Start planning for his departure and what that will look like.

Great advice Maika, I am going to look for nannies so I can transition the kids slowly. The biggest challenge is going to be the house too, we have a huge one and winters can be brutal with all the maintenance, but well all I can do is suck it up and keep moving forward I guess.

I can't imagine how this is with such little children. He's truly an a$$hole.

This is all so unlike him. He has been a great guy for 15 years and suddenly just goes berserk. I seemed to have fallen for, got married and had children with an idiot so I have to somehow see myself through this.

I was not sure if he really wanted to move yet, this guy has wavered from moving in a few days to wanting to stay together after D and now wanting to move out again in matter of 2 months, each day is a new story. But this morning I found an apartment brochure conveniently left on my car seat, he has found an ultra lux apt with rent more than the mortgage of our home. Even this is unlike his frugal, smart spending habits. The place is 50 mins away from home, he had originally said he will live close by so he can be around for the children.
I wish he had stayed so the Ds would have had their parents for longer and changed his mind, but if it is meant to be it will be I suppose.

[SteveLW]

arsh, sorry. But I think this flip-flopping, and erratic behavior is indicative of what you would have to put up with, at least for a while. It just seems so strange to me. I can't relate to him at all.

But part of the problem is that you've continued to put too much stock in what he says. Believe nothing he says. And only half of what he does.

I know I've asked you before if you think he might have any homosexual tendencies. The reason I ask is because I know in your culture that is very looked down upon. If that is what is afflicting him it is possible that it would manifest in anger, depression, resentment, and erratic behavior. It is curious that after saying he'd be close he chooses a place nearly an hour away. What is he trying to hide? What is he going there for?

All of the signs are just so weird and strange I can't help but wonder if his struggle is as much internal as external. Knowing that if his "secret" ever came out the shame it would cause.

I may be way out in left-field here but again, I just don't understand his behavior at all in any rational way.

[arsh18]

But part of the problem is that you've continued to put too much stock in what he says. Believe nothing he says. And only half of what he does.
All of the signs are just so weird and strange I can't help but wonder if his struggle is as much internal as external. Knowing that if his "secret" ever came out the shame it would cause.

You are absolutely right Steve, I still believe everything he says. I have only perfected the act as if, I am not nearly as detached as I thought I was. Just because he has planted a brochure doesnt mean he will be moving in there, I should know better by now.

There is absolutely no rationale in what he is doing and it is completely opposite of the real him. It is like he pauses, wonders what he would have done normally and does the complete opposite. He is the king of 180 in a negative way.
If there was any $exual identity issue then may be I would have known and moreover we are both open and modern view individuals, I dont think he would exit the MR blaming me for the 'controlling' and 'lost his identity' problems.
But all this goes to show how much he still has control on how I feel and react, time to get back to the DR book again and relearn the techniques.

[Davide]

Arsh,

You brought up Eternal Sunshine in Maikas thread.

God, that has long been one of my favorite movies. Long before I met my W. But it is even more apropos now. The ending always spoke to me. They go through a hellish breakup and the (creepy) relationship with Elijah Wood, and at the end Kate Winslet gets all the tapes and files and realizes everything that has happened between them, and she (and they) choose to try it again, to risk the same result. It wasnt just romantic it was brave. To (re)start a relationship with their eyes wide-open, knowing how painful it can get, and still choosing to love.

Now that we are in our current sitches I dont know if I can even bear to watch that ending again.

[Maika]

I have also loved that movie forever. I recently put it on my netflix to watch list and it's been sitting there for a while. I think I am at a place where I can watch it now again. I am sure it will bring up emotions, but it can also be cathartic. What a brilliantly moving film.

[Vanilla]

Honey

Nothing about this is anything to do with you or your 'failings'. None of it. At all. This is strictly your WH being an ass hat.

DB is for you, if you are wanting to save yourself then DB is it. What you do and who you are is vital to putting you in the strongest position for yourself and your precious children.

Your WH is abusing you in front of your children and that has the effect of putting them at risk.

Whilst your mum's depression is sad it's not your job to cure.

You carry a heavy burden, just that on it's own will make you question everything you know. You deserve better.

V

[Vanilla]

And dear brave heart it's time to get a great L and some advice so you and the children aren't homeless. Know your rights.

Frankly I want to slap that WH of yours but it wouldn't do any good.

V

[arsh18]

Thank you V, you are right I have to put myself first and stop thinking about saving the MR at this point.
Tonight he started to say he wants to discuss custody and wants 50-50 as soon as he moves out. I was too emotional so never responded, let alone validate. This is the same person who at one point called our children an "unfortunate complication" of this MR. My head tells me he wants a fast track D so he knows trying to get the children away from me is the best way to break me. I can show strength in all other aspects but I have 2 little babies, I did not birth them to be involved in only half their childhood. My heart is again making me weak as I only am thinking as a mother at this point. I know they need their father but I am not in a position to give them up for half the time.
I know I am believing in everything he is saying, but it is so hard to master emotions. I have no problems with H moving out, it might be healthy for all of us at this time but losing my Ds for half the time is not something I am ready to digest.

[Vanilla]

Please get L advice, you need this soonest. Validating bad behaviour is not appropriate. Do not validate this.

Validation is for feelings not behaviour and for feelings which are appropriate. There is no way this man should get 50% custody and no sane court would permit that with children so young. This WH is trying to cut the cost of his D and his maintenance by saying and doing this. He doesn't want to pay you child support and is after the house.

It is time to get mama bear and fight for your children.

This is evil behaviour and I truly don't like it.

Please get L advice clearly WH has.

V

[Vanilla]

Your head is right. Trust it. Get mama bear and boxing gloves on.

Sending you rainbow strength.

V

[LoneWlf]

Arsh -sorry you have to go thru this difficult adjustment. It is now time to really focus on protecting you and your little ones. we are all with you. Blessings on your journey

[arsh18]

Thanks for your advice and support V, it brings me a lot of courage. Lonewlf, thanks for your kind words. God only knows how much I need it going thru this.

I had actually consulted a L when all this started and she had said it is better if he moved out. But in terms of custody there is nothing I can do right now unless I want to proceed with separation agreements which will only make the D easier for him with the custody sorted out. So it really is a catch 22 for me.

I was taking both Ds out on Sunday and we got delayed by half hour than planned with feeding and getting them both ready. D3 had her toys all over the place and the houselooked messy and I didnt have a chance to clean it up. H completely lost it just as we were leaving.
H to me - You are still here, just procrastinating not leaving. You are not giving me anytime at all if you leave late
H to D3 - What mess have you made here with all the toys?
I - Let it all be as is, I will clean it up once I get back.
H - Ya right!
H - I need you all to leave right now, Just get the f**ing hell out of my house. All 3 of you, I am done with you, get out
D3 got scared as I started putting her shoes on
H - Get out
I - Ok H, we are leaving

Before we left, he suddenly got a pang of guilt I guess, came and hugged D3. She was upset in car asking me why daddy was scolding her.

for the first time, all this was in front of his sister who lives with us but travels for most part of the week. She had no comments, she has decided to side with her brother.
They were never close before, but just before BD he started getting really close to her. Does not discuss personal stuff but are buddies sharing jokes and hanging out now. He still does not socialize with anybody else.

On return he was being extra nice to her, made dinner and had the house clean. once he had his time to chill, swim(went after 3 months) and go out he was relaxed by the time we came back.To his credit, he does do most of the cooking and cleaning as if in competition so I do not get a chance to do it at all

At night he wanted to have D talks once kids went to bed.

Confirmed he was moving out aug 1. Said he will not be able to pay mortgage and rent on an apartment so he will split only the equity part of mortgage with me, does not want to pay for interest, insurance, maintenance and taxes on house.
H - you have been sitting on your @$$ doing nothing about this, its been 3 months. You have put me in a bad place financially, i have to pay rent and bear the mortgage payments and I cant do all mortgage. Why are you not making decisions?
I - I am still processing all that you are saying, it takes me time to understand and come to decisions.
H- It has been 3 months, what are you still processing?
I - I am trying to understand all this, its a life altering decision and it takes me time.
H - You took me granted for all these years and did not have problems processing things then, saying so walks away before I can respond.

Also for fathers day, he did not want to go out with Ds. I took both of them out by myself, it was hard to manage the two little ones and see how everybody else was a full family enjoying themselves but I dont suppose that ache is going away anytime soon.

How does one keep hopes alive of a healthy MR again and recon? I have not given up, never will but WAH's determination is unwavering.

[LoneWlf]

Arsh- so sad that your Ds have to witness a monster in their dad as he is swearing at you. Again there is no need for this blatant sign of disrespect. I would just say untill you can talk to me like an adult then this conversation is over- and walk away. As per him being now close to his sibling. My wife disliked her oldest brother- to the point where she made comments to him on his wedding day in regards to him treating his wifes family like royalty and him treating his own family like peasants. She would only make obligatory calls to him at Christmas and on his birthday nothing else. Now because she needs someone to side with her she calls him once a week. Funny how they change their stripes!

[Vanilla]

I want to thump him and kick his jackass behind.

Please don't placate this awful ranting in front of your children, lonewolf is absolutely correct and I agree with him. It's disrespectful so I would just go 'whatever and walk away.

V

[NicoleR]

Arsh, wow there are so many things wrong with what your husband has said and with his mindset. I'm a little confused by everything because I remember you saying you and your husband would move to another state after the divorce but now it sounds like you'll stay in the house and he'll simply move to another place in the same state / city? And his sister will live with him when he moves?

There is so much wrong with what's happening it's hard to even know where to start commenting. As I understand, you and your husband both work and have similar jobs so it's not "his" house and he can't blame you for any financial pressure he feels because he's doing this to himself! How can he believe his own words? You're equal to him in every way!


Also your husband's sister living with you - so she's around many times in your house not helping you with the kids and she's on your husband's side? This doesn't sound fair at all.

There are times when we all blow up over the house being a mess and we blame our spouse but the way your husband spoke to you in front of your daughters isn't acceptable at all. Even if he felt guilty and was nicer later, your older daughter will remember the outburst, not the nice gestures later.

I know you already know all of this, but it's such a nightmare you're living in. I can't imagine how you're able to work and care for your daughters with this monster around.

Is there any way for you and your daughters to leave temporarily? Like stay with a friend until he leaves on August 1st? Hopefully if it's just a few more weeks until he leaves and you can get through it but packing up and leaving for a few weeks yourself sounds pretty appealing although logistically so difficult with kids.

My sense is if you still hope to save the marriage, the sooner you can be physically away from your husband, the faster his anger will subside and he'll begin to think more rationally.

[Vanilla]

You can't save this MR it's done and over. That's clear.

The question is would there ever be a new R?

V

[arsh18]

V and Lonewlf, you both are right, i should just walk away. In my efforts of trying to 180 and validate I am slipping. And it is still so hard to believe this is the same guy i have been with and almost grown up with. Looking at his mood swings a friend of mine who knows my sitch thinks he is bi polar, he has claimed he is depressed but how can I get him any help if he is unwilling?
The irony is his reason for D is that he feels I have subjugated him the last few years in the MR and this is how he has become? I know a few spouses are angry after BD and H is extreme, but what could contribute to his extreme anger, resentment and then a few days of subdued tolerance?
At this point I am happy he is moving out and may be the best way for a R. But I am just worried about separating from kids, it is a bitter pill I have to swallow.
V - you are right, this MR is over. I still do want to R, because when it was good we fit very well. I dont know what this phase is, but if he had a physical illness I would have stood by him, now I know he is unhealthy and will still stand by the MR, but keeping myself and kids safe is above all else.
Nicole - his plans change every week, its a new thing every time so at this time i am just resigned to the sitch.
My strength is being patient, keeping calm and protecting my children and caring for them every minute of the day.
Thank you V, lonewlf and Nicole for your support.

[Vanilla]

It's not your job to save him or get him help.

Lovely lady it is for you to put your safety harness and air mask on and look after your kids.

If he has bi polar that takes a professional and it's dangerous untreated in so many ways.

The faster he falls the better and the less the damage. It is also more loving to let it happen, truly to stop enabling and controlling. Think of this as the most gentle loving thing you can do. Because it is. For him and for your kids.

It is safer for your kids for a decompensating parent to be at a distance. And loving for you. A gift.

V

[Natash]

Hi Arsh, I know how you feel and how bad it [censored]. If you don't mind I'd like to share my input because I have recently been in your shoes. It was gut wrenching to see my girls cry and question their mom as to why she is leaving, it's something I'll never forget but there is good news. I wish my WW had left sooner. I am in such a better place, the tension is gone and I'm able to detach. I now see after 5 weeks living alone (for the first time in my life) that I will be better off in the end. My relationship with my Daughters is better than ever. They are more relaxed because I am which means they listen better and everyone is in a good mood. When my girls first see me after being with Mom for a few days, they jump onto my arms and give me a big hug. When WW picks them up, they don't hug and neither mom nor child seem excited to see each other. It is sad to see but it shows me what I'm doing is right. I'm not sure what it's like in your home currently but I bet it's similar to what I was dealing with and hope your sitch improves if your spouse does move out. I have had an awakening and realize my self worth. I, as well as you and many others here, deserve better...we deserve a spouse that wants to be with us. Period. If they don't, there will be someone else out there that does. Currently they are not a prize, especially if they are in an A being deceitful liars. My WW seems to be struggling now more than ever, she is still not happy. The problem she thought was me and moving out was supposed to fix that. But it didn't because the problem isn't the other spouse when it comes to a wayward...it is a problem from within them. FYI She too shows signs of bipolar and is depressed. At first I was very concerned but realized I can't control her or expect anything from her so she is on her own on this journey while I'm being the lighthouse back at home.

[Vanilla]

Well said Natash.

V

[AnotherStander]

Looking at his mood swings a friend of mine who knows my sitch thinks he is bi polar, he has claimed he is depressed but how can I get him any help if he is unwilling?

You can't, so don't try. You are the LAST person he would listen to right now about something like this. Honestly probably 90% of the spouses of our LBS's here could benefit from some good counseling and perhaps even medical intervention. But by the time we end up here, our spouses are beyond listening to our medical and mental advice, LOL! So we work on ourselves and hope they work on themselves as well.

The irony is his reason for D is that he feels I have subjugated him the last few years in the MR and this is how he has become?

Separation will help him realize that you are not the problem after all. Not right away, but eventually. That's why we're constantly saying around here that S isn't necessarily a bad thing. It helps the LBS detach and move on, and it removes the LBS from the WAS's "equation of what's wrong".

I know a few spouses are angry after BD and H is extreme, but what could contribute to his extreme anger, resentment and then a few days of subdued tolerance?

Who knows, maybe he really is bipolar, or maybe he's going through MLC (which has characteristics similar to bipolar) or maybe he's just cranky. He probably doesn't know why he acts like that, so there's no chance that you'll ever know.

I dont know what this phase is, but if he had a physical illness I would have stood by him, now I know he is unhealthy and will still stand by the MR, but keeping myself and kids safe is above all else.

Perfect!

[arsh18]

Thank you V, Natash and AS, all your advice is spot on.

It is also more loving to let it happen, truly to stop enabling and controlling. Think of this as the most gentle loving thing you can do. Because it is. For him and for your kids.

v, I will keep this in mind and tell myself this everytime I find a need to get him some help. Removing myself from the path of his wrath will bring peace and hopefully take MR to a better place

I have had an awakening and realize my self worth. I, as well as you and many others here, deserve better...we deserve a spouse that wants to be with us

Natash, thank you I needed to hear that. Living all by myself for the first time ever in a country where I have no family is a fear but it is what will help us all heal including H. While I still hope for R, it has to be on better terms with things being way sorted out than the hot mess right now.
AS, thank you for your input, H has said in past he might have a MLC or a quarter life C. But breaking up our house is not an answer for it nor can I make him see that. My focus should and is just my babies and their bright future.

[arsh18]

Today I had to tell H that my mom was depressed and getting medical assistance. He insisted I call her here to help me once he moves out and I kept saying she is not in a condition to help and he wouldnt let go. He wants to get out washing his hands off of the responsibilities. I hadnt told him about my mom in the past because I did not want to make him guilty but today I did. I know making them guilty drives them further away, how much damage would this cause in my sitch?

[AnotherStander]

I wouldn't worry about it, I doubt it caused much damage. I doubt it caused him to rethink his position either. Like you said, he's trying to get out with clean hands. He won't, but he wants to think he will.

You're at 10 pages, time for a new thread! Link this thread in your first post of the new one, and link the new one as your last post in this one.

[NicoleR]

Hi Arsh, I guess this thread is about to disappear but it seems often your husband is trying to intimidate you into complying with his demands by acting aggressive, using swear words, or threatening you. I think it's good you were honest about your mom and you can even tell him it's not his business how you'll manage once he's gone. It seems the most he thinks he can intimidate you the more he does it, but if you push back within safe limits (like you don't want him to go into a rage where he'll hurt someone or something) then hopefully he'll start to show more respect. It's hard because DB prescribes a certain set of actions but sometimes you also need to take individual circumstances into account, like if a 180 means you used to be controlling and now you're being complicit then it's great to do a 180, but if doing it means it's empowering your husband to act abusively then maybe it's not the best technique.

[NicoleR]

Correction - that one sentence is supposed to read "It seems the more he thinks he can intimidated you the more he does it."

[EricC]

I have been trying to be the best I can be but it doesnt seem to affect him, he has decided to turn a blind eye to it. So I am telling myself he needs to go on his own journey to figure out the root of his pain and depression is inside him and not me.

Arsh,

Do not be the best you can for him. Do that for yourself. Don't even pay attention whether it affects him. It does, regardless whether he shows it.

He does need to go on his own journey. Let him do it. Don't pay attention to him too much. You have to go on your own journey too.

[arsh18]

Thank you AS, Nicole and Eric. I feel it has been just a ride down the deep dungeons so far, yet to experience the high of a roller coaster.
My new thread -
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2796816&#Post2796816