Affair, no feelings...is there hope? IV

[SteveLW]

sandi is the expert but i do think a period of limbo is usually necessary. As is often said, you didn't get to this point overnight and it won't get better overnight either. I was very anti limbo, even saying that it would be better to have your spouse drop the bomb and leave and file. But then anther poster pointed out that limbo is the gift of time.

So now I view limbo is that period of change from the state of heading toward D and moving into a new MR. Limbo is difficult but almost necessary. Especially considering that our Ws, whether we like it or not, will go through withdrawal from OM. Also difficult to watch, but also necessary.

[sandi2]

It's been several years now, so I have to think back about how I felt when the board members were talking to me about staying in my M. I understand your W's feelings. But you two have only been together three years, and she is sounding as if there is no coming back b/c things got too deep? That is immature and unrealistic thinking about marriage, IMHO. What did she think M was......a fairy tale where the couple never had a problem? There is no reason on earth you two can't come back from this. She is just afraid she won't experience the butterflies when you walk into the room. I have news for her. As long as she sits and waits for you to make her feel butterflies.......it won't happen. She has to throw herself into the relationship to get the feelings. She may never feel like she did when you first M, IDK. I actually had better times, more romantic times down the road, than we had our first couple of years..... b/c I leaned in order to experience the thrills I had to encourage it and be an active "giving" partner. I also learned that was what people meant when they said you had to "work" at it. A MR must have nourishment, to keep the love alive.

She doesn't seem mature enough to handle the fact she is employed while you are earning your degree. She wants to see evidence where you have worked at home, while she was on her job. Some women just don't do well being the breadwinner. They go home and start hammering the H b/c he did not do enough around the house .....according to the W's expectations. When you described all you did, it sounded like a lot.......but if I heard her side, it would probably be a different story. You know if you are doing enough, or not. You have to have time for your classes..

Give her a few days to go at her own speed and do her own thing. Just be cautious, b/c you will want to do something to make her feel better, and you'll fall back into waiting on her. If she is right about the house, then maybe you really aren't doing as much as you thought.......or else the dogs are way too messy (which this can be true). As for your "projects", I still don't understand why that bothers her, or why she feels you have to give her an update on how you are coming along with it. At first, I thought it went along with all the other stuff of her running a tight ship, but IDK. If you leave an unfinished mess sitting around, it probably is a sore spot with her.

I use to say I had never seen a woman give up a good H b/c he didn't do enough housework. With this younger generation of W's who have such a sense of entitlement.......I don't know if that any longer the case. I just always have suspicions when a woman can't find anything to complain about, other than he doesn't do enough around the house! Maybe it's b/c "she" is the real problem......not him.

Anyway, just take a day at a time. Try to have an easy week. Don't do anything to pressure her emotionally. Don't bring up the R talk again, unless she initiates. Just try to be relaxed and have a comfortable atmosphere at home.

She got caught, called out, and she feels guilty. She's is having to deal with the fallout of her behavior. She is still wayward. It doesn't change overnight. As long as she clings to those old resentments, she is blocking off any feelings of being in love. Her emotions are urging her to rebel against commiting to the MR. I hope she will realize that if you can forgive her betrayal and deception, she should be able to forgive you for whatever she holds against you. Apparently, she hasn't figured that out yet.

[44tries]

sandi is the expert but i do think a period of limbo is usually necessary. As is often said, you didn't get to this point overnight and it won't get better overnight either. I was very anti limbo, even saying that it would be better to have your spouse drop the bomb and leave and file. But then anther poster pointed out that limbo is the gift of time.

So now I view limbo is that period of change from the state of heading toward D and moving into a new MR. Limbo is difficult but almost necessary. Especially considering that our Ws, whether we like it or not, will go through withdrawal from OM. Also difficult to watch, but also necessary.

I completely agree, Steve. I am okay with limbo. Yes, it is frustrating and that awful feeling of uncertainty lingering over my head 24/7 is no fun. But I'm a patient man. I don't know why I have the feeling that I shouldn't accept limbo after spending so much time here. It makes me feel I am doing something "wrong" or being used. I don't know if that makes any sense.

[44tries]

It's been several years now, so I have to think back about how I felt when the board members were talking to me about staying in my M. I understand your W's feelings. But you two have only been together three years, and she is sounding as if there is no coming back b/c things got too deep? That is immature and unrealistic thinking about marriage, IMHO. What did she think M was......a fairy tale where the couple never had a problem? There is no reason on earth you two can't come back from this. She is just afraid she won't experience the butterflies when you walk into the room. I have news for her. As long as she sits and waits for you to make her feel butterflies.......it won't happen. She has to throw herself into the relationship to get the feelings. She may never feel like she did when you first M, IDK. I actually had better times, more romantic times down the road, than we had our first couple of years..... b/c I leaned in order to experience the thrills I had to encourage it and be an active "giving" partner. I also learned that was what people meant when they said you had to "work" at it. A MR must have nourishment, to keep the love alive.

Thank you, Sandi, this was encouraging. I was starting to have doubts and wonder if she was right that there was no coming back. I agree with you completely about the idealism I think she has. Ironically, she tried to tell me I was idealistic about being able to build something new and better. I don't think she thinks MR is something where you never have a problem. She said something like "it's one thing if you have a problem, recover, and have another problem, etc. But it feels like we have just had one prolonged problem all along." That was her reasoning for feeling the problem is unfixable; because it wasn't isolated enough. I understand the need to work and nourish, and regret I didn't understand it sooner. But she needs to understand it and I can't convince her or show her otherwise.

She doesn't seem mature enough to handle the fact she is employed while you are earning your degree. She wants to see evidence where you have worked at home, while she was on her job. Some women just don't do well being the breadwinner. They go home and start hammering the H b/c he did not do enough around the house .....according to the W's expectations. When you described all you did, it sounded like a lot.......but if I heard her side, it would probably be a different story. You know if you are doing enough, or not. You have to have time for your classes..

I do a lot. But I will be the first to admit I didn't at first. It was definitely an adjustment for me. She acknowledges I have stepped up and she doesn't come home wondering about what I did, etc. But again, she sort of said too little, too late. It's not like I made the change a month ago. I started doing more and more after the first few months we lived here because I recognized it was a big problem.

Give her a few days to go at her own speed and do her own thing. Just be cautious, b/c you will want to do something to make her feel better, and you'll fall back into waiting on her. If she is right about the house, then maybe you really aren't doing as much as you thought.......or else the dogs are way too messy (which this can be true). As for your "projects", I still don't understand why that bothers her, or why she feels you have to give her an update on how you are coming along with it. At first, I thought it went along with all the other stuff of her running a tight ship, but IDK. If you leave an unfinished mess sitting around, it probably is a sore spot with her.

I will resist waiting on her. She hasn't been asking for me things today and seems to be aware. I think part of that is feeling like she can't ask things of me since she doesn't want to work on the MR. She doesn't want to feel like she owes me anything, in other words. I will try and reflect on the house issue. Maybe I can do more. But she is sort of crazy about it. I spent a lot of time cleaning before she came home and today she made a comment about not knowing what she wanted to do, and all she could think about was cleaning the house. We were standing in a spotless kitchen. Yes, we have three large dogs and there is always dog hair. But she is never satisfied with the state of the house, that is a fact. We ended up spending two hours today disassembling every fan we own and cleaning it. On the project issue, it's nothing to do with leaving a mess. It's things like the fact I like to keep a million tabs open on my computer. MY computer, not hers. But she hates it. I have a lot of interests and fully admit I have a tendency to get obsessed with something and not always follow through. That's why she said she stopped taking interest. But with my degree, I'm not sure if she thinks I am not actually going to finish it or what. Certainly I have never given up or not accomplished something as major as that.

I use to say I had never seen a woman give up a good H b/c he didn't do enough housework. With this younger generation of W's who have such a sense of entitlement.......I don't know if that any longer the case. I just always have suspicions when a woman can't find anything to complain about, other than he doesn't do enough around the house! Maybe it's b/c "she" is the real problem......not him.

I will think about this. She did emphasize a particular frustration about feeling like she often comes home from work and can't relax because there is dog hair on the couch or the sheets are in the dryer and I try to put them on before bed and it's too late. I don't know if she expects a chocolate on her pillow or if I am failing. It is something I am aware of and for a long time I have DAILY vacuumed the couch and even, specifically, her pillow. IDK, it's frustrating. I know I used to be a slob (changed when we moved in together). I know I don't always have the best time management skills. But I have consistently improved. Maybe I still have a long way to go.

Anyway, just take a day at a time. Try to have an easy week. Don't do anything to pressure her emotionally. Don't bring up the R talk again, unless she initiates. Just try to be relaxed and have a comfortable atmosphere at home.

This is what I am doing. Today she brought her pillow into the bedroom and we laid in the bed and talked for over three hours about all kind of things. A lot about her family and childhood. At the end, she talked about wanting to go back to her hometown when it's time to move back and collect some personal mementos like sports trophies. She said, "maybe you can come with me. And we can finally go to [a pizza place she always raves about from the past]." I'm thoroughly placing that one in the "they will be confusing" box.

She got caught, called out, and she feels guilty. She's is having to deal with the fallout of her behavior. She is still wayward. It doesn't change overnight. As long as she clings to those old resentments, she is blocking off any feelings of being in love. Her emotions are urging her to rebel against commiting to the MR. I hope she will realize that if you can forgive her betrayal and deception, she should be able to forgive you for whatever she holds against you. Apparently, she hasn't figured that out yet.

I know. I am okay waiting. I will continue to make sure I don't start waiting on her. I just wish there was something I could do to help her let go of the resentment. But I know it's not something I can control.

[sandi2]

We ended up spending two hours today disassembling every fan we own and cleaning it. On the project issue, it's nothing to do with leaving a mess. It's things like the fact I like to keep a million tabs open on my computer. MY computer, not hers. But she hates it. I have a lot of interests and fully admit I have a tendency to get obsessed with something and not always follow through. That's why she said she stopped taking interest.

She never commented about the house being clean? Sound as if she had to look hard to find something to make you do! Seems she enjoys punishing you, IMHO. Why did you engage? If she wants to clean fans, leave her with it.

In all fairness to her, three large dogs in a house is a lot of hair. If these are considered to be your dogs, then I could see that as an ongoing source of resentment for her.

Her laying on your bed and talking, is good........as long she wasn't complaining about you, or her usual b.s. Like I said, a day at a time.

[Mowgli]

44,

I think you and I are the same person sometimes. your struggles are the same ones I face, both in M and in daily life.

look up the term "hyper-focus," and see if some of the things they say match up with you.

Do you absorb yourself in certain things and try to learn everything about them as fast as possible?

Do you have a tough time using your time on your school work and finish everything under a "time crunch?" Almost like you NEED the pressure to get the work done?

Ever get stuck in your head, or in a book or article, and look up at the clock and a literal hour has passed?


For the record, my W had the same problems with me that your W is saying she has with you.

The first real fight we had in our R was about me eating a PB&J on her bed and getting crumbs on her comforter. We're talking like three crumbs and she f-ing lost it!

Same issues as you're having when we first got M, too. I was working on my Master's and she was working. I was home with my oldest, who was very active at that time, and trying to get my weekly assignments done. It was all I could do to get dishes done during the day, and she'd come home and focus on anything I didn't do.

I almost left her at one point as things got really bad for a while. She just couldn't find happiness, was angry all the time and it was sucking the life out of me.

We got past it, and things were good for 5 years until my second kid came along, then things went down hill.

W had this really bad habit of pointing out all the things that wouldn't get done, and that just killed me on the inside because I really felt like I was doing the best i could. The kicker with her, though, was that she wasn't taking care of her chores, either, but I never said anything to her about it because it wasn't something that mattered to me.

I would say that not speaking up about the hypocrisy really put us on an uneven playing field.

During her A (which I didn't know about), One of the things I tried to do early on was take care of all the household chores, which was unrealistic. I know lots of LBSs try this approach.

After two months, I figured out that this was the wrong thing to do and so part of my detachment process was to sit W down and define and split household chores evenly.

Even now, we maintain these household boundaries, and yes, my household chores are a boundary for me. We've had it out over instances where she hasn't felt like i've done my chores "in a timely fashion." They are my chores and my responsibilities; I get mad if she tries to do them. She knows what she is responsible for and what my jobs are. It's been really healthy, too! I think having the list has made our M better because then she can't say thing like "I'm doing X more work than you," because the roles are clearly defined. It helps us both because she doesn't feel wholly responsible for the house, and I know exactly what my jobs are, so I can see that they need to be done and do them (I'm not one that goes looking for extra cleaning!).

I have no clue if any of this is helpful, but I thought I'd share.

[sandi2]

Same issues as you're having when we first got M, too. I was working on my Master's and she was working. I was home with my oldest, who was very active at that time, and trying to get my weekly assignments done. It was all I could do to get dishes done during the day, and she'd come home and focus on anything I didn't do.

44, does your W really know how much you have to do to stay on track with your assignments and tests? Sometimes I get the idea she thinks you simply goof off all day, and that's why she resents it. Does she ever look at your assignments, etc?

Also, when she has a day off, do you put in your daily time toward your studies, or do you take that time off while she is home? I just wondered if she actually sees you working on the degree, or if it's all done while she's gone. if that makes sense.

[44tries]

She never commented about the house being clean? Sound as if she had to look hard to find something to make you do! Seems she enjoys punishing you, IMHO. Why did you engage? If she wants to clean fans, leave her with it.

She asked if it was clean on the way home from the airport and I said yes. She didn't complain about it being messy. A lot of times she will say the house looks good; this time she didn't say a whole lot, but I don't think she thought it was a problem. It was just odd that the next day she commented how all she could think about was cleaning. But she almost has OCD about it and she acknowledges it. She says small things just get stuck in her mind and she is stressed until they are taken care of. Anyway, she didn't tell me to clean the fans. We were just sitting in bed talking and the topic came up and we decided to clean them together. But it's true it shows her hyper attentiveness to the cleanliness of the house. If it isn't perfect she is stressed and bothered.

In all fairness to her, three large dogs in a house is a lot of hair. If these are considered to be your dogs, then I could see that as an ongoing source of resentment for her.

They are not my dogs. They are our dogs, but if you get technical I brought one and she brought two. One of them she got while we were dating so I've known him his whole life and he is sort of shared. But if we split, it's clear where the dogs go and only one is mine (admittedly he is the hairiest). Our dogs are our kids, and they are treated as such. We both love them all of them equally deeply. In fact, she has talked about how she is having a very difficult time thinking about losing my dog. But it does sort of amaze me how little tolerance she has for dog hair despite her love for dogs. I don't like it either, but it is a huge, daily battle that is just reality with the dogs we have. It will never be completely hair free and you could kill yourself trying. In general, though, I think I have said before, no one comes to our house without commenting how clean it is. It's cleaner than anyone I know besides my very elderly grandma who lives alone and has a cleaning service.

Her laying on your bed and talking, is good........as long she wasn't complaining about you, or her usual b.s. Like I said, a day at a time.

No, no complaining really the past few days. Everything has been nice and friendly and relatively stress-free except for the two R talks, one of which occurred again today unintentionally. The bed situation has become slightly awkward because she has made statements about not understanding my hogging of the bed and being very uncomfortable in the other room. It's also the sort of the physical manifestation of the divide between us. Anyway, she was really tired today and went to take a nap in the bed and was talking about how comfortable it was. I tried to address the problem and it became a full on discussion about the same stuff. She can't choose door 1 or door 2. She doesn't "feel" like trying. She feels I am applying pressure and pushing my "angle". She doesn't think there is a way to try without feeling guilt or obligation. Then, some random super specific stuff: She doesn't have fun doing projects with me. I shut her down and make her feel like I'll listen to her ideas but always think mine are better. If I do give her the reigns, I just ask what to do next like a child. I'm not spontaneous enough and she feels she has lost all her motivation to do anything. She said I take forever and worry about things like brushing my teeth first thing or spend too long looking at my iPad before getting out of bed. We can never go anywhere straight away.

I didn't really want to get into another huge R talk because the last one didn't go so well. Admittedly, it became a lot more extensive than I wanted but eventually I tried to ease out of it and said I was also really tired. She said well you should also lay down and take a nap. So I did. She got up to go the bathroom and came back and crawled in the bed and put her arms around me. We napped for a couple hours and cuddled the whole time. After she just had this whole spiel about not wanting to send me mixed signals or give me false hope!

We made dinner together (went all out for a our favorite meal) and watched TV. Everything was good, we shared a wine glass and joked around. Then she talked about needing to finish washing the bedding for her room and getting ready for work tomorrow. I asked her what she needed help with (not sure if I shouldn't do that? She didn't ask). Then she gets in the shower with me! Nothing sexual or anything like that, but tell me it isn't strange she won't sleep in the same bed but we can share a shower??

She still wants to take a trip together to visit a friend and go to a music festival with her co-worker. I also have a feeling she is going to bring up the workout class when I go tomorrow (it hasn't come up again, should I still tell her no if she asks to join?) Still no sign she has any contact with OM. She hasn't touched her phone much at all since she's been home. But I have to admit the separate sleeping thing has made me slightly suspicious; maybe it's just a big deal symbolically for her and she isn't ready to go there. IDK.

44, does your W really know how much you have to do to stay on track with your assignments and tests? Sometimes I get the idea she thinks you simply goof off all day, and that's why she resents it. Does she ever look at your assignments, etc?

Also, when she has a day off, do you put in your daily time toward your studies, or do you take that time off while she is home? I just wondered if she actually sees you working on the degree, or if it's all done while she's gone. if that makes sense.

You are exactly right to get that idea because it's true. She never looks at my assignments. She barely even knows what I'm studying! I brought this up during the first R talk and that's when she admitted she had stopped taking much interest because she felt she couldn't keep up with all my latest stuff (again, I have been studying the same thing this entire time, it's not like I'm jumping all over the place). She probably assumes I am mostly distracted, doing who knows what, and wasting time. Because time management isn't my strong suit, as I've said, and she knows that. But I've never thought to "prove" it to her or show her my work since she isn't interested.

She doesn't see me do much. Most of the time, on her days off, I give her my attention and we do things together. I can mostly avoid studying on the weekends. Occasionally, there are deadlines or things I can't avoid, especially if she has a random weekday off. She has kept the dogs quiet while I take a final exam and stuff like that before. But it isn't 'typical'.

[44tries]

44,

I think you and I are the same person sometimes. your struggles are the same ones I face, both in M and in daily life.

look up the term "hyper-focus," and see if some of the things they say match up with you.

Do you absorb yourself in certain things and try to learn everything about them as fast as possible?

Do you have a tough time using your time on your school work and finish everything under a "time crunch?" Almost like you NEED the pressure to get the work done?

Ever get stuck in your head, or in a book or article, and look up at the clock and a literal hour has passed?

Yes, this is so me!! I am an 'all or nothing' type person and a procrastinator. I can read about all sorts of things for hours and hours. I am always researching. It always frustrated me because my W talks about how I spend too much time on electronics. If we're watching TV or in bed, she hates if I'm on my phone. But the problem is she is too! And she texts a lot. Even before the A stuff, she texts probably 10x more than I do. When I'm on my phone, I'm probably reading an article or balancing the budget. I feel like texting other people would be a lot more disrespectful, but perhaps I'm being narrow-minded.

For the record, my W had the same problems with me that your W is saying she has with you.

The first real fight we had in our R was about me eating a PB&J on her bed and getting crumbs on her comforter. We're talking like three crumbs and she f-ing lost it!

Same issues as you're having when we first got M, too. I was working on my Master's and she was working. I was home with my oldest, who was very active at that time, and trying to get my weekly assignments done. It was all I could do to get dishes done during the day, and she'd come home and focus on anything I didn't do.

I can definitely relate to this!

I almost left her at one point as things got really bad for a while. She just couldn't find happiness, was angry all the time and it was sucking the life out of me.

And this! Especially with my W being gone, it was almost like a lifted weight. Now that she's back, it's so much harder to get anything done or not feel dragged down by her lack of motivation/enthusiasm. She is just always unhappy, tired, doesn't even know what to do with herself and watches way too much TV. And she says I am the one who isn't fun! It is so draining to always worry and wonder why is miserable and try to carry both of us over the finish line to meet goals.

We got past it, and things were good for 5 years until my second kid came along, then things went down hill.

W had this really bad habit of pointing out all the things that wouldn't get done, and that just killed me on the inside because I really felt like I was doing the best i could. The kicker with her, though, was that she wasn't taking care of her chores, either, but I never said anything to her about it because it wasn't something that mattered to me.

I know the exact feeling. Nothing I can do is enough. It's not that she never says she appreciates what I do or tells me the house looks good etc. She does. But it's the feeling that at the end of the day, she still isn't satisfied. It's still an "issue". It HAS gotten a lot better as I've stepped up more, and she doesn't cite it as a major problem like she used to. But she doesn't seem any happier (which at one point she said she would be if it were to improve).

I would say that not speaking up about the hypocrisy really put us on an uneven playing field.

During her A (which I didn't know about), One of the things I tried to do early on was take care of all the household chores, which was unrealistic. I know lots of LBSs try this approach.

After two months, I figured out that this was the wrong thing to do and so part of my detachment process was to sit W down and define and split household chores evenly.

Even now, we maintain these household boundaries, and yes, my household chores are a boundary for me. We've had it out over instances where she hasn't felt like i've done my chores "in a timely fashion." They are my chores and my responsibilities; I get mad if she tries to do them. She knows what she is responsible for and what my jobs are. It's been really healthy, too! I think having the list has made our M better because then she can't say thing like "I'm doing X more work than you," because the roles are clearly defined. It helps us both because she doesn't feel wholly responsible for the house, and I know exactly what my jobs are, so I can see that they need to be done and do them (I'm not one that goes looking for extra cleaning!).

I have no clue if any of this is helpful, but I thought I'd share.

This is really good feedback. I think I am going to try to set some more clear guidelines and agree on set responsibilities with her. Especially now that I am trying hard not to cater to her or over do it, it will really help establish expectations and boundaries, just like you said. Maybe having a more defined idea of what she expects of me would help her resentment too. Thanks so much for sharing, Mowgli! Sure seems like we share a lot of the same struggles.

[Ste7e]

I had the exact same phone tv time dilemma
Frustrating is an understatement