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M: 26 W: 26
M: 1.5 T: 3
No kids
BD: 31 March 2018

W's affair began: 23 March 2018
Affair confirmed: 18 April 2018
Confrontation/claims she ended A: 14 May 2018
Ended in-house separation: July 2018
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 249
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Originally Posted By: Mowgli

When she starts to do the whole "I don't deserve sympathy" routine, that roughly translates to "please give me sympathy" in WW speak.

She does the whole self deprecating thing because she wants you to be the "Nice Guy,' and tell her it's all okay.

It's not okay. She needs to keep hearing that early on. Forgiveness and sympathy is for her, not for you. You will heal at your own pace which is different for everybody. You will forgive at you own pace, too, so when you say it, you need to be ready to mean it.


This is what I had suspicions of and you and Sandi confirmed it. Makes total sense. I will make sure I don't fall for it and give her any kind of comfort. I'll make it clear it's not okay.

Originally Posted By: Mowgli
You need to play it out like you know WAAY more than you actually do about her tryst, so keep the questions to a minimal, and let her dig her own hole.


This is along the lines of what I was thinking, which is why I didn't ask many questions.

Originally Posted By: Mowgli
There's lot of other stuff, but I wanted you to be thinking about those two things before all the dust settles. You don't know how this will all play out, and it will be a LOONNG play-like years long- and there are lots of different roads you both will travel in that time.

Right now, you are confident and strong and are becoming your best version. Your focus is still on what is best for you.

All she needs to know is that you know you will be fine and will come out stronger and better on the other end (you will. We never fully feel that way, but we all do).


Thanks, man, I really appreciate it. This really excellent advice. I will keep those two things in mind.


M: 26 W: 26
M: 1.5 T: 3
No kids
BD: 31 March 2018

W's affair began: 23 March 2018
Affair confirmed: 18 April 2018
Confrontation/claims she ended A: 14 May 2018
Ended in-house separation: July 2018
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 249
4
44tries Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: sandi2

It is manipulative. I've seen the same thing reported hundreds of times. When she says this type of stuff, she actually wants just the opposite. She wants you to feel sorry for her and show her tenderness and sympathy. (Google hard hearted wife). You don't have to be cruel or cold as an ice burg. However, you can't give in to your urges to say something comforting to her. Present a stoic front, and let her wonder how you feel. She is extremely self-centered. It is the nature of the WW. I pray that during this time away, God will confict her heart and she really will repent for the disrespectful treatment she gave you and seek to have the right feelings of a loving W. If she gets her heart right with God, that's a good start in healing the MR...........but, that part is between her and Him. As the H, your part is stepping up to be the dominent male in the MR and in the home. She will have to learn to remove her military uniform when she comes home from work. Lots of women who are in an employed position of authority forget to change hats when they go home.......just like some men forget how to interact with his W and children after dealing with very stressful issues all day at work. Neither of them are going to respond well if they start shouting orders at home. Regardless of their position on the job....both spouses have to regroup, so to speak, and wear the appropriate hat for the home, bedroom, family, etc.


This all makes sense. I won't give in to any urges to comfort her.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
I think she loves you, but she acts like a spoiled brat. I don't think she knows how to value the MR. At least that's what her actions say. It has gone past being extreme and has gotten completely out of control. I hope you see that you can never allow it again. While she's gone, I hope to talk to you about setting boundaries.


I would love to talk about setting boundaries.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
What she said about the sexual issue......I use to feel the same way. I have explained how a W's attraction is tied to her level of respect for her H. I had gone through so many years of a SSM that I thought there was something sexually wrong with me. Yes, my H played a big part, b/c he would not stand up to me and just stonewalled (which was the worst thing he could have done with me). He stopped initiating and even stopped sleeping with me. He was not a dominant male in the bedroom (or anywhere else) that I needed, so it left me feeling as if my insides had died. That is an awful feeling. It was not just the lack of sex, but the lack of an intimate relationship and the sheer loneliness that made me very vulnerable to some man who showed me the right kind of attention. My feminine ego was starving, and once I had a little taste of male attention, it did play a part in tempting me for "more". When I discovered I had normal sexual responses, I felt alive for the first time in years......and I was hooked almost instantly. It's like a strong drug, and that's why it is hard to end an affair.


This is really good insight.. and also crushing for me. It kills me to think I made my W feel that way. And I can definitely see why it would cause such vulnerability to cheating.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
If you will continue on your path to being a dominant male in your home, and especially when interacting verbally, physically, and sexually with your W........her attraction will return, if she'll just cooperate. She will have to show respect, even if she doesn't feel it. That is key. It will take her being willing to put away her demanding ways, stop trying to rule over you, and drop the entitlement. A woman does not sexually desire a man she can rule (unless in a kinky female dominant fantasy.....but it doesn't work in a real relationship).

I don't know how she was raised or what type of dynamics she saw between her parents. But, it's never too late to learn something new. There is too much available information out there for her not to learn, if she is willing. She has to be cooperative. She has to put forth the right action in order to get the feelings in return.

The WW operates out of her emotional frame of mind. It's all about "her feelings", which is evident in your W's conversations. The main thing she is concerned about in reconciling or trying again......is how she will feel. Just between you and I, her feelings are not the most important issue right now. Remorse (which is another feeling) is not the most important issue, or even her commitment. The most important thing needed is her willingness to do the necessary work. If she cooperates, then these other things will come........if her heart is right. As long as her heart is resentful and selfish......then those feelings won't come b/c you just can't have a loving, happy MR with resentment, selfishness, and disrespect in the heart.


And how will I know if she gains this willingness? She will say so?

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Forget about the sexual stuff right now. She'll bring it up, b/c she's concerned about her feelings, but I don't want you making it an issue at this time. Don't even try to assure her that the feelings will return. B/c when a man tries to tell a woman about her feelings......it doesn't seem to have a good affect.


Got it, I will try to minimize discussion about the feelings issue and not talk at all about how she can fix it.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
When she comes home, and if you decide together to stay in the M, it has to be with the understanding that she is all in.....not just part way. She needs to know that she will sleep in the same bed with you. There are to be no more separate bedrooms while living under the same roof. She is either all in....or all out. She doesn't get to set the rules by what she wants. You are the betrayed spouse, and she cheated, so that pretty much forfeited her game rules. As long as there are separate bedrooms, the chances of increasing an intimate MR is not near as good as when sharing the same bed....and having the same bedtime. Know what I mean?


Yes, I know what you mean. I completely agree, this is the only way I want the reconcile to go if it's going to happen. But back to my question above, will this be obvious and she will say so? Or how do I know when I go from unaccepting to knowing she is all in? I am preparing for something wishy washy where she says she wants to try but doesn't really believe it will work and isn't really willing to give up her demands. I guess maybe thats the answer ^^ she no longer makes demands?


M: 26 W: 26
M: 1.5 T: 3
No kids
BD: 31 March 2018

W's affair began: 23 March 2018
Affair confirmed: 18 April 2018
Confrontation/claims she ended A: 14 May 2018
Ended in-house separation: July 2018
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 249
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Originally Posted By: AnotherStander
44, you're getting some really great advice, especially from Sandi and Artista. I'm just going to say that I wholly approve of what they are advising you on how to deal with your WW. If you read other threads on these forums just please keep in mind that your sitch is different than most, you're dealing with the worst kind of lying, rebellious, immature, controlling and manipulative WW. The advice we offer others does not apply to you.

Yours is a textbook case for going well and truly dark and I'm not sure why you haven't done it yet. Don't believe ANYTHING coming out of your W's mouth. She's lying about just kissing OM, she's lying about being worried about you, she's lying about anything and everything. What is the use of talking to her if nothing but lies stacked on lies comes out of her mouth? There is no point. You get nothing from it, she gets nothing from it, your relationship gets nothing. SO STOP!!!! Time to get off the roller coaster.

I think at some point she'll hit rock bottom and then she may come to you with genuine humility, but that's not going to happen anytime soon. She may very well feign humility to bring you back under control so just expect it and be VERY wary. Any apparent attempt on her part to pull you into recon should be met with this response from you: "I don't know what I want, I have a lot of thinking to do and I think it would be best if we remained separated and out of contact for a while."


Erm...I'm getting a little bit turned around because I get very different vibes from your post and Sandi's, but you said you were agreeing with her advice. It seems Sandi is operating under the assumption that she was being genuine but remains very self-centered and you're operating under the assumption that she is completely full of sh!t. Sandi is talking about what to do if we work on the MR and you are saying I should be completely going out of contact (maybe you are just meaning while she is gone?). confused

I think in both cases I am nowhere near trusting her, but these still feel like two very different sets of advice.


M: 26 W: 26
M: 1.5 T: 3
No kids
BD: 31 March 2018

W's affair began: 23 March 2018
Affair confirmed: 18 April 2018
Confrontation/claims she ended A: 14 May 2018
Ended in-house separation: July 2018
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Quote:
t seems Sandi is operating under the assumption that she was being genuine but remains very self-centered and you're operating under the assumption that she is completely full of sh!t. Sandi is talking about what to do if we work on the MR and you are saying I should be completely going out of contact (maybe you are just meaning while she is gone?).


Everyone is saying the same thing, 44. We are saying NC while she is gone on this trip. Don't believe anything she says while she is gone and trying to secure her position in the MR, b/c it is manipulation.

Yes, I was talking about working on the MR........but I thought I was clear about not contacting her while she is gone on this trip. We all are in one accord about NC while she is gone. No initiating and no responding. Sorry, if I was trying to give too much at once.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Okay, that makes more sense. He sounded like he was talking about long term, not a few days. Yes, we are clear about no contact on the trip.


M: 26 W: 26
M: 1.5 T: 3
No kids
BD: 31 March 2018

W's affair began: 23 March 2018
Affair confirmed: 18 April 2018
Confrontation/claims she ended A: 14 May 2018
Ended in-house separation: July 2018
Joined: Sep 2015
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1) Setting boundaries:

They are for you, not her. That's the key thing you need to understand right now.

There's lots of different boundaries you can set, but you need decide what you need to heal, and stick to boundaries that aid in that pursuit.

If you go back and look at how I handled stuff before I dumped the A knowledge on WW, you would see that I really struggled with boundary setting. In fact, I can say I really never set a boundary in our R until sh!t hit the fan.

My dad always told me to "Pick your Battles" and I really took that to heart. WW would complain about the stupidest stuff, and because it wasn't a big deal to me, I'd cave and give in or do whatever I had to do to make things right. Real typical NGS stuff, right?

What I learned was that I needed to take control of myself and be a man. Although I didn't have a problem with all of these "little things," perse, they were creating a big rift between W and I in terms of respectful communication, meaning that I was letting her b!tch at me for things that I was considering no big deal.

So a boundary that I set was that I wasn't going to be talked at, or be disrespected by not only WW, but anyone.

I told her right off the bat that I wasn't interested in going back to the M we had, that anything we started was going to result in a new M on a new foundation. There were times (still are times!) that the disrespect would start to creep in and I just have this thing that I say to her now, which is:

"you don't get to talk to me like that. I don't let anyone talk to me like that, and so you can't, either."

if it persists, I walk away, because you can only control yourself and your actions, right?

Boundaries are NOT for controlling others, they are for you to use to let people know what you will/will not tolerate to your persons.

2) How will you know wether or not she's "all-in?"

You won't for a while, which is why you believe none of what she says, and half of what she does. You'll know when you truly believe she's putting in the work because you're SEEING her put in the work day in, day out months from now. the key here is seeing, not her telling you she's committed.

That's it on #2. I know it seems simple, because it is in concept.

one last note on boundaries (I can give you more info, too, as I've gotten better at them post recoc):

Keep them simple and general and for you, AND stick to them. If you don't stick to your boundaries, she'll walk all over you again.

My boundaries are/were:

Respect

That's it, really.

Personal boundaries are for you and all relationships, but they start in your M.

The way I see things is if W respects me, all the other stuff gets taken care of naturally.

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Originally Posted By: 44tries
Okay, that makes more sense. He sounded like he was talking about long term, not a few days. Yes, we are clear about no contact on the trip.


I will put my two cents in... I am disappointed that you had the conversation/the reveal over the phone... Why? Because you put your foot down and said you wanted to have it face-to-face... She disregarded you and pushed for her way... And you gave in... Instead of working on detaching (you are not detached, no matter what you try to tell yourself) you are engaging with her... You did not put into practice what it is to be a man with balls, and she did not get the consequence of going too far... Neither of you are taking this precious gift of space and time and using it to your advantage... Every time you communicate with her, you take away from your opportunity to become that man only a fool would leave...

Honestly, I don't know what else to tell you... All I have is CUT THE CONTACT! ENOUGH... MY gawd, see if you can live through one entire day without her... I promise you, you will not die! You are a grown man, not a baby who needs milk from his mommy... You see? You don't need her to survive... But if you want her, you MUST DETACH... otherwise, you will surely face the same fate as Tate... A wife who files while you are still fully stuck on her...

--artista

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Originally Posted By: 44tries
You are a grown man, not a baby who needs milk from his mommy... You see?--artista

Awesome lol!

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Originally Posted By: Mowgli
1) Setting boundaries:

They are for you, not her. That's the key thing you need to understand right now.


This is a great reminder. Boundary setting is not something I have a lot of experience with (partly why I'm here). But I understand this is the fundamental key and will keep telling myself as I move forward and practice setting them.

Originally Posted By: Mowgli
If you go back and look at how I handled stuff before I dumped the A knowledge on WW, you would see that I really struggled with boundary setting. In fact, I can say I really never set a boundary in our R until sh!t hit the fan.

My dad always told me to "Pick your Battles" and I really took that to heart. WW would complain about the stupidest stuff, and because it wasn't a big deal to me, I'd cave and give in or do whatever I had to do to make things right. Real typical NGS stuff, right?


This is so me. So, so me.

Originally Posted By: Mowgli
What I learned was that I needed to take control of myself and be a man. Although I didn't have a problem with all of these "little things," perse, they were creating a big rift between W and I in terms of respectful communication, meaning that I was letting her b!tch at me for things that I was considering no big deal.

So a boundary that I set was that I wasn't going to be talked at, or be disrespected by not only WW, but anyone.

I told her right off the bat that I wasn't interested in going back to the M we had, that anything we started was going to result in a new M on a new foundation. There were times (still are times!) that the disrespect would start to creep in and I just have this thing that I say to her now, which is:

"you don't get to talk to me like that. I don't let anyone talk to me like that, and so you can't, either."

if it persists, I walk away, because you can only control yourself and your actions, right?

Boundaries are NOT for controlling others, they are for you to use to let people know what you will/will not tolerate to your persons.


Wonderful example. This is exactly what I am planning to do with my W if we get there. If she wants any kind of recon, the entire dynamic needs to change. She will know from day 1 that I won't let her talk to me like she used to.

Originally Posted By: Mowgli
2) How will you know wether or not she's "all-in?"

You won't for a while, which is why you believe none of what she says, and half of what she does. You'll know when you truly believe she's putting in the work because you're SEEING her put in the work day in, day out months from now. the key here is seeing, not her telling you she's committed.

That's it on #2. I know it seems simple, because it is in concept.


This makes sense to me. I am okay being patient and letting my trust and confidence be earned very slowly. The thing I keep telling myself is, the slower this all goes, the more likely it will be real and lasting. The hardest thing will be perpetually keeping my guard up and not becoming exhausted.

Originally Posted By: Mowgli
one last note on boundaries (I can give you more info, too, as I've gotten better at them post recoc):

Keep them simple and general and for you, AND stick to them. If you don't stick to your boundaries, she'll walk all over you again.

My boundaries are/were:

Respect

That's it, really.

Personal boundaries are for you and all relationships, but they start in your M.

The way I see things is if W respects me, all the other stuff gets taken care of naturally.


Great advice. I have the same mindset you do. Respect gets to the root of the issue and will be my number one priority. I do hope you will continue to give me info; I really appreciate and value your input from experience so similar to my own. Thanks, Mowgli!


M: 26 W: 26
M: 1.5 T: 3
No kids
BD: 31 March 2018

W's affair began: 23 March 2018
Affair confirmed: 18 April 2018
Confrontation/claims she ended A: 14 May 2018
Ended in-house separation: July 2018
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