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OK I wasn't being snarky. its weird butI care about you and when you're hurting it bothers me. I really think you need to amp up GAL. You seem to have too much time to stew in your own juices.

Also I vividly remember our IC discussion. You said the current one, your 2nd one wasn't working so you saw it as a waste of money. i encouraged you to keep looking for a good one and you shut he discussion drown.

I really think you, due to your sitch, need IC more than anyone else that posts here. But ICs are like a pair of jeans. You have to find one that fits.


M(53), W(54),D(19)
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Originally Posted By: Steve85
OK I wasn't being snarky. its weird butI care about you and when you're hurting it bothers me. I really think you need to amp up GAL. You seem to have too much time to stew in your own juices.


Its touching to hear you say you care. Seriously. Thank you. I agree on GAL upgrade. Ive been slacking off with excersize recently too. Memorial day weekend is looking to be a good one. I havent had a break like that in a long time.


Originally Posted By: Steve85

I really think you, due to your sitch, need IC more than anyone else that posts here. But ICs are like a pair of jeans. You have to find one that fits.


Alright. Hard truth time. Enough about ww, please elaborate on this and be thorough. Why do I more than anyone else here need IC? Maybe I need to hear the reasons from someone other than myself.


M: 35, EX-W: 3, S:4
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OrangeK I have been following your sitch. I am a bit of newbie so take my advice for what it is worth. I currently have 2 IC one is for me to deal with personal issues an dthe other is a marriage counselor. I was very reluctant to see the first one but once I started it was what I needed to do for 20 years and is helping me unpack codepenency stuff and anxiety obsessive stuff. These are all so important when dealing with the crisis and trauma of a seperation and or D. Got to get your house in order.


M 40 W 34
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BD 1/18 need space
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Originally Posted By: OrangeK

Alright. Hard truth time. Enough about ww, please elaborate on this and be thorough. Why do I more than anyone else here need IC? Maybe I need to hear the reasons from someone other than myself.


Because you didn't get closure due to the nature of your sitch. The TRO really messed up your ability to DB. To see if you could potentially turn things around. You've mentioned getting closure.

I just feel for you man. You have someone any integral part of your life suddenly ripped out of it with no recourse like that is a lot to deal with. The right IC could really help you work through that. Then when the craps TRO is finally lifted you'll be in a much healthier place to deal with your WW.


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Orange. Exact same boat. Got a TRO for begging, pleading, refusing to move. She called the cops because I told her I would fight for my kids and 50/50 time with them.

I am curious now since I am NC and pushing a divorce I don't want but have to do for her and my own sanity.

She hasn't done much of anything lately. I have no clue on her mindset or feelings.

We have spoken a few times with mixed results after she dissolved the RO. Once when I was clear and happy...she sounded remorseful and I could hear her old self. Most of the times after though were detached and cold.

I have little hope. Not much hope when they drop a RO on you. Someone advised her to do it. Too bad for her. I have regrets...but she made the situation the way it is now. The EA/PA allows her to move on without me. My focus has to be me and using this adversity to grow. I'm going to IC 3x a week and get to see my kids frequently now. I'm ok...not good. But maybe with more time and space I can get back to being me.

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Quote:
Past: All of the questions. they "Why's", "Does she feel bad, guilt, remorse, self-loathing?" "How could She's" "Did i EVER mean anything to her?" and "What was she thinking??" "how could she discard every item from our wedding and life together?" "why him over me" "WHY couldnt she have just talked to me instead of all the lying and cheating and pain" - Pretty straightforward stuff to work out. Knowing ill NEVER get answers is just the hard part. I know ill never gen answers or at least honest ones, unless she has a breakthrough. Just takes time to cope with these not ever being addressed i guess.


My nephew experienced a similar situation as yours. His first marriage, and her second (so she claimed). She had a couple of little kids, who loved him to death.....and he did them, too. She put on a good front to everyone on his side of the family. I was a little suspicious about her, but told myself I was judging her for her past and should give her a chance. His family paid for the wedding, even bought her a beautiful wedding grown. Immediately following the wedding, she changed. Her treatment toward him was terrible. Long story short, he asked her why did she even M him if she didn't love him. Her answer? She had never had a bridal grown and just wanted to experience having a pretty wedding. Her children were devastated, and I don't know if my nephew will ever trust another woman to fall in love again. It was so unbelievable that a woman could be that cold and calculated. I won't get into the other things she did, but it was bad!

Like you, he was left with so many unanswered questions. He felt duped and could barely look at anyone. She "used" him, and I saw the raw pain in his eyes. It made me want to beat her head against the wall until she spilled everything. There was no regret or guilt in her. She was "using" a new OM and could care less how my nephew was struggling or how hurt and confused it left her children. She is the epitome of a cold, calloused heart and self centeredness.

Quote:
"Will she ever apologize or show remorse? If so, how, when and what would I do in response?"


Honestly, I don't think it is likely. I think she will go from man to man. If she runs out of men who give her what she wants.......she may go sniffing around you again to see how warmly you respond, but I think you are just adding more agony for yourself to think there is a possibility she'll contact you one day and give a sincere apology and express any remorse. At this point in her wayward lifestyle, I doubt she's ever considered the fact you deserve an apology or some type of explanation. She isn't thinking of you. It's all about her and how she can play the next guy.

Quote:
"Does she actually have feelings for OM or did she just land with him out of convenience of right place and time?"


The same question could be asked about YOU. Did she actually have feelings for you, or did she simply use you to show her EX how fast she could get another man and get M and get pregnant. I mean, seriously.........why do you care what feelings she has or don't have for OM? Just between us......I don't think the girl has fallen in love with anyone. She just uses people for her own twisted purposes.

Quote:
"How is she treating S3 when they are alone?"


That is a legit concern, and one that you have no control over. I don't believe in pressing children about the other parent's personal life, etc. But if the child feels safe with you and sees that you won't react in anger or get sad, etc.........most children will reveal little things at a time, innocently, in their child-like ways. Just listen closely.

Quote:
"is she ever going to try and re-idolize me and seek Recon, not that i want it but how do i handle it if she starts pursuing? What do i look for? How to avoid it without making her more angry and spiteful?"


These are the type questions that LBH's ask that are very, very unlikely he'll ever face. No, she won't re-idolize you again. I can't say she'll never try to feel you out about reconciling, who knows? I thought I had gone over signs to look for, should she try. I think would flirt and use her sexiness, b/c that's how she got you the first time around. She would probably act real frinedly, and as if there had never been any problems between you. She wouldn't appear guilty. How to avoid it? Simple show no interest. If necessary, tell her you don't want to reconcile or be BFF's. If asks if you can be friends, it's a trap......so tell her "no".

Do you daydream of her wanting to come home, weeping and telling you how wrong she was for hurting you? Do you dream of her begging you to take her back and giving her another chance? And do you see her telling you how much she loved you then and realizes how much more she loves you now?

I think you kind of do. You still have not let it go, and that's why these questions still haunt you. I am being very plain with you. A girl like her is unpredictable in many ways, but I don't think she's going to seek R with you as long as she is meeting new men, and mixing in with other waywards, and seeing future opportunities in short term relationships. I think you served the purpose she had in mine at the time. Now she is playing with someone else.

Quote:
"Does she ever miss me?" (makes no difference to me, but would effect how she treats me down the line)


I think it does make a difference to you. Be honest with yourself and your own feelings. It is normal. You still love her, so these are natural things you wish could be answered. I suspect it's still early for her, and she is caught up in her new adventure or viewing her next guy to be soooo in love with.

Why do you say it would affect how she treats you down the line? What do you mean?

Quote:
"How is her mental state? Is she scared of D? scared to face me and deal with her guilt? Is that why she extended the TRO Is that why she never initiated filing for D herself?"


Mental health is wayward mindset. Is she scared of D? No, why would she? Does she have something to lose? Scared to face you and deal with her guilt? Okay........wait a minute here, b/c this is not a two in one situation. Facing you does not mean she is going to necessarily feel guilty. Did you ever see anything that appeared as though she felt guilty for trying to break up her EX's M? People have to have a conscious in order to feel guilt. But, who knows......somewhere down the road she may start to develop one. Just meeting you face to face is not going to be like your daydreams. Even if she musters up some tears and lies about never intending for you to get hurt, yada, yada.......would you believe it? Would you see it as guilt? Apparently she is good actress, b/c she had you fooled a long time. So, she could do it again.

IDK what to say about the whole TRO thing. It would strictly be a guess.

Quote:
The way my mind works, if I dont have at least a good working understanding of a thing, and why it happened, it cant seem to evacuate my thoughts.


That's why it is so difficult for you to accept the wayward wife analyzes (if I can call it that). It is very hard for a loving spouse to understand the mindset of his WW. It leaves him completely bewildered. When you Google wayward wife, it may give signs of knowing if you have one, but finding free online information that tells you what to do is very limited. As for explaining the psychology........it's even less. I did find some under the hard hearted wife, that described the waywardness and what the H should and should not do. So, finding the right key search word helps. smile. The term wayward is just not that common, I guess. It is generalized as a spouse having an affair. However, I get frustrated trying to find online information that offers more meat on the subject.

Quote:
That being said, I do still struggle with this lack of understanding and not knowing what to expect from her behaviors moving forward, as well as the lingering detachment issues i have to put to bed once and for all. With the level of vindictiveness and manipulation she is capable of I don't want to leave any situation unconsidered so it surprises me and bits me in the @$$ later down the line.


After learning more about her behavior, I think you would be most fortunate if you can move on without her intrusion in your life. Maybe that is not what you want to hear, but this woman is bad news, IMHO. She leaves a path of destruction. That is one reason I urged you not to make any contact with her that was extremely important. The less you hear or see from her, the better for you. I mean that with all my heart. She will have to have a serious make over in her heart/mind and a new set of moral standards, before I can see hope in a R with her.

If she repeats past behavior patterns, the vindictiveness may show more once you meet a new lady friend. I can see your WW trying to run the new lady off. WW's are territorial with the H they dumped. Doesn't make sense, b/c she doesn't want him, but her selfishness and jealous nature of being a wayward, doesn't want him having a happy love life with another lady.

Does she have any credit cards with you as her spouse? I know my CC sends an extra card in my H's name, even though he doesn't use it. If I didn't pay it off, the company would go after him and hold him responsible. So it might be wise if you can take your name off any joint accounts, CC's, etc. Vanilla may be able to tell you some ways to legally protect yourself, financially, etc.

((hugs))


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Orange... I used to have the same obsessive thought about my W. I understand how hard it is to get out of that frame of mind looking for answers. It helped me a lot to realize I'm probably never going to get those answers, so what was the point of stressing on it. My chances of having lunch with Bigfoot were better than me having all my questions definitively answered. It also helped to remind myself that she wasn't worth the headspace it was taking up. Don't get me wrong, I still love her, but I'm not going to let her take up all that space in my head, because she doesn't deserve it...


Me: 38
W:31
Kids: S16(mine from previous R), D10, S9, S4
M: 10 years
T:12 years
BD:Jan 3, 2018
W moved out: Apr 13,2018
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D final: Sep 2019

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Originally Posted By: sandi2

My nephew experienced a similar situation as yours. His first marriage, and her second (so she claimed). She had a couple of little kids, who loved him to death.....and he did them, too. She put on a good front to everyone on his side of the family. I was a little suspicious about her, but told myself I was judging her for her past and should give her a chance. His family paid for the wedding, even bought her a beautiful wedding grown. Immediately following the wedding, she changed. Her treatment toward him was terrible. Long story short, he asked her why did she even M him if she didn't love him. Her answer? She had never had a bridal grown and just wanted to experience having a pretty wedding. Her children were devastated, and I don't know if my nephew will ever trust another woman to fall in love again. It was so unbelievable that a woman could be that cold and calculated. I won't get into the other things she did, but it was bad!


Im sorry this happened to him. Sounds AWFULLY familiar.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Like you, he was left with so many unanswered questions. He felt duped and could barely look at anyone. She "used" him, and I saw the raw pain in his eyes. It made me want to beat her head against the wall until she spilled everything. There was no regret or guilt in her. She was "using" a new OM and could care less how my nephew was struggling or how hurt and confused it left her children. She is the epitome of a cold, calloused heart and self centeredness.


How long ago was this? how is he now? Is she still on the same patterns as far as you know?



Originally Posted By: sandi2
Honestly, I don't think it is likely. I think she will go from man to man. If she runs out of men who give her what she wants.......she may go sniffing around you again to see how warmly you respond, but I think you are just adding more agony for yourself to think there is a possibility she'll contact you one day and give a sincere apology and express any remorse. At this point in her wayward lifestyle, I doubt she's ever considered the fact you deserve an apology or some type of explanation. She isn't thinking of you. It's all about her and how she can play the next guy.


I know it isnt likely, and the more back and forth with her and MIL i have the less and less i pine over the loss. It still comes and goes, but its getting lesser and lesser. GAL'ing and testing the waters with dating have helped. It also helps to frequently hear from people here and IRL how abnormally Wayward and cruel she is. I tend to forget the awful stuff and focus on the good things i miss, but the awful stuff far outweighs it.



Originally Posted By: sandi2
The same question could be asked about YOU. Did she actually have feelings for you, or did she simply use you to show her EX how fast she could get another man and get M and get pregnant. I mean, seriously.........why do you care what feelings she has or don't have for OM? Just between us......I don't think the girl has fallen in love with anyone. She just uses people for her own twisted purposes.


Exactly what I mentioned above. this is very helpful, the more often i hear about how seriously effed up she and the things she does are, the more i realize very clearly that the woman i loved was the act, and this is the real person. It just such a shame because "THe Act" was an amazing person, it bothers me that she was so good at FAKING being a good person, why didnt she just do it for real? Its amazing to think people can be that selfish and literally have no remorse or conscious about their actions to someone the professed from the MOUNTAIN TOPS to love infinitely, but you are right, she didnt have any remorse for what happened with any of her EX'es and pretended like life was peachy keen for her and I, meanwhile all the drama going on behind the curtains I was unaware of.

"I don't think the girl has fallen in love with anyone. She just uses people for her own twisted purposes"

I think she THINKS she falls in love, and then when it fades she just kind of goes "oh well, it happened again, on to the next one"
Or she is just fully aware of what shes going to do from Day 1. Which is terrifying.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
That is a legit concern, and one that you have no control over. I don't believe in pressing children about the other parent's personal life, etc. But if the child feels safe with you and sees that you won't react in anger or get sad, etc.........most children will reveal little things at a time, innocently, in their child-like ways. Just listen closely.


Eyes peeled, she was always amazing as a mom around me, and others, and she has a lot of experience with kids, i just worry as S3 becomes an individual she will begin to neglect him because he isnt a pose-able instagram model anymore, he will have his own thoughts and ideas. Plus he looks EXACTLY like me and nothing like her, so as petty as that is, she will get spiteful of that too.



Originally Posted By: sandi2
These are the type questions that LBH's ask that are very, very unlikely he'll ever face. No, she won't re-idolize you again. I can't say she'll never try to feel you out about reconciling, who knows? I thought I had gone over signs to look for, should she try. I think would flirt and use her sexiness, b/c that's how she got you the first time around. She would probably act real frinedly, and as if there had never been any problems between you. She wouldn't appear guilty. How to avoid it? Simple show no interest. If necessary, tell her you don't want to reconcile or be BFF's. If asks if you can be friends, it's a trap......so tell her "no".


Yes you have mentioned a lot of this before, sorry for the repeat question. Still, good info thanks. Look for my next post about a convo her and I had earlier today about S3. She is definitely still in defensive-antagonistic spite mode.



Originally Posted By: sandi2
Do you daydream of her wanting to come home, weeping and telling you how wrong she was for hurting you? Do you dream of her begging you to take her back and giving her another chance? And do you see her telling you how much she loved you then and realizes how much more she loves you now?


Wanting to come home, sometimes, less and less. We dont have a home anymore, i had to move out when she left anyway. Begging for me back and another chance? Again, not as much, id be lying id i said not at all but ive come to the realization after reading this post, that everything, and i mean EVERYTHING good about her was false and fabricated, but no, accountability and apology would be higher on my list.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
I think you kind of do. You still have not let it go, and that's why these questions still haunt you. I am being very plain with you. A girl like her is unpredictable in many ways, but I don't think she's going to seek R with you as long as she is meeting new men, and mixing in with other waywards, and seeing future opportunities in short term relationships. I think you served the purpose she had in mine at the time. Now she is playing with someone else.


Yes, and as much as it hurts sometimes, its liberating other times. Ive spent a lot of time reflecting on our R these past few days, and Ive come to realize that i was fooling myself into thinking i had been happy with the R. In reality i wasn't, for quite a while, it was more familiarity, comfort and complacency. I do miss the illusion, but I know it was simply that.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
I think it does make a difference to you. Be honest with yourself and your own feelings. It is normal. You still love her, so these are natural things you wish could be answered. I suspect it's still early for her, and she is caught up in her new adventure or viewing her next guy to be soooo in love with.


It hurts to now she doesnt, and never really did miss me or love me.
Im still in love with the woman and life i thought i was getting, but so hurt and angry and honestly at this point almost hateful of the person she actually is. The convo i had with her earlier proved yet again that she is just spiteful and antagonistic. I know youll probably rebuke me a little bit about said convo, but it happened so ill post it.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
Why do you say it would affect how she treats you down the line? What do you mean?


Will she stay just bitter and antagonistic forever, and let me be the concrete role in her life as a source of negative attention and a scapegoat she can constantly blame me for things and play the victim for the next 15 years, or will she actually try to build an amicable co-parenting situation, try to be "friends", or even the re-flirting. Her mood and demeanor will play a big role in how easy or difficult co-parenting is in the long term.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
Mental health is wayward mindset. Is she scared of D? No, why would she?


It makes her look bad, she cheated, and left me for another man, she has to go to court and explain that. She is very non confrontational if she can be and the idea of standing in front of a judge and trying to lie her way out of guilt is something i know would bother her a lot. She asked for D but never took a step to initiate it and has waited till the last min to do each step weve done so far.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Does she have something to lose? Scared to face you and deal with her guilt? Okay........wait a minute here, b/c this is not a two in one situation. Facing you does not mean she is going to necessarily feel guilty. Did you ever see anything that appeared as though she felt guilty for trying to break up her EX's M? People have to have a conscious in order to feel guilt. But, who knows......somewhere down the road she may start to develop one. Just meeting you face to face is not going to be like your daydreams. Even if she musters up some tears and lies about never intending for you to get hurt, yada, yada.......would you believe it? Would you see it as guilt? Apparently she is good actress, b/c she had you fooled a long time. So, she could do it again.


She wont fool me again. "Believe half of what the do and nothing they say"
We have to see eachother in person next week at 1st divorce hearing.
I honestly dont know what she fears to lose, she threw away her whole life already.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
IDK what to say about the whole TRO thing. It would strictly be a guess.



Guess away, i value your guesses immensely.



Originally Posted By: sandi2
After learning more about her behavior, I think you would be most fortunate if you can move on without her intrusion in your life. Maybe that is not what you want to hear, but this woman is bad news, IMHO. She leaves a path of destruction. That is one reason I urged you not to make any contact with her that was extremely important. The less you hear or see from her, the better for you. I mean that with all my heart. She will have to have a serious make over in her heart/mind and a new set of moral standards, before I can see hope in a R with her.


After today it has become clear she is just going to be mean spirited and callous. No point in wasting my time or thought on her unless i absolutely need to. Unless she suffers a very strong and jarring loss i dont see her changing her attitude ever.

[/quote]If she repeats past behavior patterns, the vindictiveness may show more once you meet a new lady friend. I can see your WW trying to run the new lady off. WW's are territorial with the H they dumped. Doesn't make sense, b/c she doesn't want him, but her selfishness and jealous nature of being a wayward, doesn't want him having a happy love life with another lady. [/quote]

This is a huge concern, How often do you see this possessiveness? Why do they feel territorial about something they decided was worthless and expendable? that flies in the face of anything resembling logic.
She DEFINITLY did this with her EX, and i know she was really offended he moved onto a new R so quickly, and got married and had a kid to boot. Things she wanted from him, i know she even said to EX's Wife at one point "You got the version of EX that I deserved" or something to that effect.
I anticipate when I am publicly in a new R, is when she will show her change in demeanor if she is ever going to. Granted i know it will be fake, but this is something ive thought a lot about, and trying to figure out how to handle this if and when it happens.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Does she have any credit cards with you as her spouse? I know my CC sends an extra card in my H's name, even though he doesn't use it. If I didn't pay it off, the company would go after him and hold him responsible. So it might be wise if you can take your name off any joint accounts, CC's, etc. Vanilla may be able to tell you some ways to legally protect yourself, financially, etc.



Nope, heres the silver lining, she never wanted to combine finances, in any way after we were married (now i know why).
I talked about consolidating our bills, getting joint CC's and bank accounts, she wanted nothing to do with it, so we dont share a single financial asset, our cars are in our own names and we dont have any property to split. Furniture and household stuff already got split up. in regards to D, we only need to figure out custody, then it should be done. hoping it goes fast.
I think Finalizing D will also have an effect on how she treats me, not sure how, but i think it will cause a change.


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2nd Convo with WW since Jan 24th.

Me: When you fell comfortable talking, i think we need to discuss mutual routines for bedtime, behavior and learning so its consistent when hes with me vs. when hes with you and OM. Im concerned about some of the behaviors the daycare has mentioned. Just want our Bug doing th best he can. Have a good day.

WW: Well first of all, he only has bedtime routine with ME, but yes, i agree there sgould be some similar routines

WW: also he has a haircut appointment on Monday. I wanted to know if you had any input / preference on what she does to his hair.

Me: I said bedtime learning AND behavior, I dont care what level of involvement OM has at this point its not my business. He was brought into S3's life far earlier than he should have been but thats done so it doesnt matter. I only care about whats best for S3. I had planned on cutting his hair short before it got to hot out as he has been asking for it, it gets in his face and annoys him.

WW: Ok ill let her know for his appointment

Me: *Thumbs Up*

WW:Good to know you were planning on cutting it short without saying anything, yet i asked you before making any decisions regarding it. have a nice day

Me: I havent asked you yet because i hadnt made the appointment yet, As i expect is t he same reason i have not heard from you regarding his doctors appointment. I want to talk to you as little as humanly possible, so i didnt think a haircut needed to brought up until i made an appointment. I noticed you made the appointment before bringing it up to me also. You enjoy your day as well.



Ok people. Give it to me. Good? Bad? what should have been said differently? Should i not have even bothered?


M: 35, EX-W: 3, S:4
All Divorce Proceedings Complete - Oct 18
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OM should have never been mentioned. He's not important. This only involves you, W, and S. Pretend like he doesn't even exist...

And a little too wordy on the haircut response. You don't need to defend yourself. She's trying to push your buttons. I would have sent another thumbs up...


Me: 38
W:31
Kids: S16(mine from previous R), D10, S9, S4
M: 10 years
T:12 years
BD:Jan 3, 2018
W moved out: Apr 13,2018
Filed for D: Jun 2018
D final: Sep 2019

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