Affair, no feelings...is there hope? IV

[sandi2]

To steal a line from MWD, we can always get divorced. Committing to give it our best shot doesn't have to mean we are trapped as prisoners in an unhappy MR forever.

I think this would be an excellent response if she starts talking about not "feeling it" and being concerned she is not "connected" to you. Just save it, b/c you'll probably have an opportunity to use whenever she decides to start talking and giving excuses for not wanting to go all in a 100%.

As I've said, we could discuss scenarios all week and wouldn't hit it just perfectly. I don't think you should grab her by the hair and say, "Now listen up, woman.....cause I'm about to lay down a boundary"! You might as well declare war without another word. Can't you just tell her you need to have a talk. Look at her and say, "(inset W's name) I have decided that I will not stay in a marriage where I am disrespected in any form or fashion". Is that so bad? Then if you want to cut out that additional stuff I had added, and go on to the next and say, "I will not stay in a MR with private and/or inappropriate friendships and/or affair". I do suggest you add...... "You have betrayed my trust, and you brought OM into our M. So, now we either go forward committed to being faithful, or we end the M now. If there is to be a M, then there can be no more private/secret texting. If you are not willing to be transparent in our M, then say so now". If you have a better way of saying it, that's fine. It has to be your message. I'm just trying to give you an idea how to show strength and deciviness, instead of a pushover.

I can see her saying things like "IDK if we just don't have a connection and aren't meant for each other, or if I just refuse to let it in." Or "Maybe I'm just too damaged. If I really had true love to offer, it wouldn't be so hard." "You don't deserve to let my inability to be happy prevent you from a happy life." "No one else should be dragged down by my repeated cycle to self-sabotage everything good in my life." I'm making this up, but you get the idea...a bunch of self-focused musings, feeling sorry for herself, saying she has issues but they can't be fixed. She could very well suffer from depression or some other mental health issue, but she refuses to get help due to fear for her career. For this same reason, I'm worried she will be resistant to counseling.

A lot of this is stuff WW's use as manipulation tools, or some self-pity b.s. No, don't offer solutions. I see nice guys doing that every time their WW pulls this trick. She knows he'll do it, and that's why she does it. I know, it's crazy.....and don't ask me to explain why, b/c I can't. But I can tell you what to do. Nothing! It's her decision to be willing or not.....but you didn't ask for a bunch of excuses. It's not your job to convince your wayward spouse. Now is the time to break that old dynamic and it will stop when you stop trying to persuade her.

Seriously, if she has any maturity whatsoever, she should expect to at least get talking from you!

I just meant she seems emotionally Immature, to me, and I hope she will realize she's not out of the woods so easily. You will be talking to her about the situation.

I will resist temptation to be nice and chatty and be ultra cool, calm. You are saying she will expect me to talk? So the calmness will make her nervous, right?

I believe it will. You not talking will make her nervous. Unless you have the habit of sulking when she's hurt your feelings.

This will be the hardest thing!! No more melty-cheesy 44. I will not offer any consolation if she cries. It helps to think of it as manipulation, even if she is being sincere.

My H was a nice guy, too. But if I was crying b/c he had to say something stern, he would not comfort me. If I bawled all day, he would not try to console me. It's a good thing he didn't, b/c I would have used it like a tool. I don't think I am the manipulating type......but I believe all females have the ability to manipulate males. Just watch any three year old little girl with her daddy, grandpa, uncle, etc. And, that's one reason little girls can't con mommy as easily as daddy.

I will just move forward with the boundaries talk. I guess this will sort of be assuming she wants to keep our relationship? If she doesn't, she will say so? This kind of goes back to my original question of which comes first...

Assuming she has not plainly said she wanted a D. If she has not waited to discuss things and goes straight for "I want a D".......then use what I suggested.

She might not feel totally convicted, but I think (hope) if I make her choose all or nothing, she will choose all.

At the moment, you need willingness from her. Don't tell her that you don't need to see remorse, or conviction.......I'm just explaining this to you.

My main concern is if she says she has to think it over. Unless you can be strong enough to hold her feet to the fire in the confrontation, I'm a little worried you'll get stuck in separate bedrooms. IMHO, if she says she has to think about it, that would be a good place to use the quote from MWD. In fact, you could use any quotes from her.

If she commits to giving it her best shot, then there is no reason for her to sleep in the other room. I know why she may want to, but you don't have to have sex with her just b/x she's in the same bed. Right? I said.....right?

I feel this would be her biggest hesitation--to know she can't promise her feelings will return or whatever other [insert woe is me problem here], and be afraid she will never get another chance to escape (remember, I used to be the guy she knew would never leave).

You can tell her, if you want, that you are not asking her to promise feelings. You are asking if she will commit to giving it her best shot.

I will be waiting anxiously to hear how things go.

[44tries]

Okay, here is my big update...been a long day.

It didn't go as well as I'd hoped. As I kind of expected, she didn't initiate the conversation. I let her settle in and eat and then I initiated, leading with the boundary talk. That went over fine and she mostly agreed. She cried and said she knew she was a "bully" (her words). She agreed I was right to ask for no further disrespect and that it can't continue. Also, she had no problem with no private inappropriate relationships.

Frankly, it all went fine except for the part where it came to willingness. She couldn't tell me she wanted to go all in to try to save the MR. She said she felt like I was giving an ultimatum. She said she didn't know if things could be fixed. Yes, it sounds great to start fresh, but you can't just shove all the old stuff out the door. She is very afraid of going back to the same old cycle and being stuck in an unhappy MR. I made it clear the old MR was dead and I didn't want that back either. She just didn't get how we could build something new on top of rubble. She talked about how she didn't know if she could just get rid of all her resentment, she can't control her feelings.

I don't think she thinks it is possible to regain attraction and feelings. She cried and cried, went on about how she didn't know how to let go and was really struggling with the idea of divorce. I told her there were no promises or expectations, she just needed to be willing to try. I really don't understand why she can't do that. She claims she doesn't want to prolong a bad thing, but then says she struggles with divorce and wasn't rushing to go that route. She basically admitted that she doesn't want to lose my friendship and companionship. I told her I can't just give her the parts she wants and forget the rest. She said she feels she has lost all her independence and we had codependency issues and she doesn't even know who she is. She doesn't see a way to take a hard detour and get back from the wrong road we went down for so long (her words). She just feels something is missing. She craves intimacy and connection and doesn't see how it can be with me.

We talked for a long time and I'm probably forgetting some stuff. I tried not to do too much talking, explaining, or convincing. In regards to the bed issue, I actually foolishly thought it wouldn't be a big problem. She had even asked earlier if it was clean, I don't know why exactly. To answer your question Sandi, the reason she wouldn't sleep in it has nothing to do with sex. I'm not pushy about that at all. To be honest, I thought the main reason she left the bed originally was so she could text all night. But I guess I was wrong. She said she doesn't want to send me mixed signals by sleeping in it now. I also think she is hurt/mad that I have hogged it.

She was very exhausted by the end of the talk and I honestly started to regret having it at all (I know, it needed to happen). Unlike me, she hasn't had any alone time for three weeks. She said she needed to sleep and get some clarity. I told her I understood but I really didn't want to have to drag her into another conversation again if she was just going to try to avoid it. She didn't really leave me with a definitive answer. I made it clear that the way I see it is we get a D or we commit to trying. I don't even know what her option 3 looks like. She talked a little about needing time and space (but also about how she doesn't want me to leave because I'm all she has here), and how she knows we can't really do that under the same roof.

I feel very tired and don't know what to think. I'm disappointed I didn't get the answers I was looking for, and admittedly feel a little despondent. But I'm not devastated, which I'm taking as a positive that my growth and detachment have been genuine. I can't force her to try. I'm glad she didn't definitively say no, but it's a very frustrating impasse where she just doesn't "feel" like it. I thought I understood being willing without having the feelings yet, but now I see the other side where if you don't feel like it, how can you be willing? IDK, like I said I'm tired. My brain can't think about it anymore tonight.

[Ste7e]

I got a very similar response from my WW
Hang in there 44

[sandi2]

Sorry it didn't end the way you had hoped. She may have been in contact with the OM. The last time you had talked to her over the phone, she seemed pretty desperate to hold on to you. Didn't you get that impression when she was telling you she loved you and needed you? Now she comes home and can't be willing to at least try? That sounds suspicious to me.

I didn't except her to jump with joy. I figured she would throw up the "no attraction" thing. But something seems a bit "off". It could be that she is going through withdrawals of OM/A. When a WW is going through withdrawals, she doesn't feel much anything else but depression.

Did she apology for the betrayal, the scretiveness, etc? Did she agree to be transparent?

I don't know if I buy the idea about why she doesn't want to share the bed. I suspect she's still texting OM. Even after being caught, the urge will pull at her to contact him b/c she is addicted.

I hope you told her you would not accept a "friendship" in place of the MR. From her actions, she is trying to stay in the same in-house separation status.

Did you agree with her about the co-dependent statement? Would she consider MC for co-dependent issues?

Did expound on knowing she was a bully?

Okay, well, I hope you will be able to rest and get a good night's sleep. Tomorrow is a new day.

[SteveLW]

44, my W said almost the exact same things on bomb day. Almost verbatim to what you typed.

Look, don't read too much into it. Remember, believe nothign she says and only half of what she does!

Look WWs have an illusion of a perfect life post-LBH. But I am telling you, as the reality of that life draws closer the illusion starts to fade. Your W has been through an emotional roller-coaster. OM is always new, fresh, without the problems that have cropped up with you over the years, and so she's put a lot of emotional investment into that "future".

WWs do not like to give up the illusion. Plus they have to go through an emotional grieving of OM. Further, they are usually angry at LBH for getting into that way of the illusion. And they also usually are more sorry for getting caught than they are for the actual betrayal.

44, you need to remember that WWs can change. Think about how in love she was with you when you got married. Somewhere along the line she changed to where she is now. She CAN change back. She may not want to right now but the work you do from this moment forward can help her in that change.

You are under the same roof, that is a start. I have a lot of thoughts on how to go about this myself, but as I am fond of saying, every sitch is different. You are under the tutelage of sandi, you can't go wrong with her advice.

But, I will give you a piece of advice that helped so much in my sitch: keep your conversation with her fun and light 97.5% of the time. In MC my wife mentioned that as we interacted in that way she had started to see herself staying in the MR. I took advice of another anti-divorce expert where I would call her from work in the late morning, almost everyday, and would tell her something about work, or that I heard on the radio, or something I read on my Google feed. Anything short, light and fun. Then I would say "Ok well just wanted to share that, talk to you later! Goodbye." And then hangup.

I honestly believe she started to look forward to those calls. She is a SAHM, and she doesn't get a lot of human interaction from 8am-3:30pm. Sometimes I'd squeeze another call in early afternoon too, but that was about once a week.

Anyway, that went a long way with her. Mainly because we had that kind of relationship when we were dating and early in our marriage. Think about something similar that you used to do and incorporate that.

Otherwise, continue to detach, 180, GAL and be the best 44 you can be.

Don't be to down, this conversation went pretty much to the script.

[Ste7e]

Hey Steve85 I am curious about the short friendly calls
I am in NC but want to do the short friendly thing for the same reasons you did but afraid that it is pursuing
Sorry dont want to hijack this helpful thread

[Davide]

Yeah. Ste7e, I was thinking the same exact thing. For the first 3 weeks of my separation I still sent upbeat or informational texts to my wife, but once I got on here I went NC and cut that off completely. How is that not seen as pursuing? Or are they just in another phase, way ahead of us?

[SteveLW]

Many here would call it pursuit. and it probably is strictly speaking. However, in my sitch I detected that reconnecting that fun side was something we needed. It was a bit of a gamble but was a gamble that paid off. Again every sitch is different, and that tactic may not work in other sitches.

[44tries]

Sorry it didn't end the way you had hoped. She may have been in contact with the OM. The last time you had talked to her over the phone, she seemed pretty desperate to hold on to you. Didn't you get that impression when she was telling you she loved you and needed you? Now she comes home and can't be willing to at least try? That sounds suspicious to me.

I didn't except her to jump with joy. I figured she would throw up the "no attraction" thing. But something seems a bit "off". It could be that she is going through withdrawals of OM/A. When a WW is going through withdrawals, she doesn't feel much anything else but depression.

I agree, Sandi. I didn't want to be too hopeful, but I will admit something just seems to not add up. I definitely got the impression she didn't want to lose me and needed me. I guess that part still rang true yesterday. She said she was afraid to lose me. She cried every time she thought about it. But she said I am the one that has been there for three years, and I think she is more just afraid to be alone. She just kept saying how she didn't want to back to the same cycle, over and over again. The part that really felt off to me was the total distance. It's hard to explain, but in the times I have talked to her in the past couple weeks where she seemed desperate to hold onto me, I felt a closeness with her. I could feel her reaching for me. Maybe it's just because it was in person this time, but yesterday it was like she was closed.

Did she apology for the betrayal, the scretiveness, etc? Did she agree to be transparent?

Not nearly like she should have. I got the impression she didn't want to rehash all the apologies she gave during the confrontation. She would rather just run away and hope I never brought it up again. She was very uncomfortable. She doesn't even like me to see her cry (lots of stubborn pride there I think). She said she has been cheated on before and knows how it feels (okay, not by your SPOUSE). And she said she thought maybe right now I say I can move past it, but it's a roller coaster and I might not feel that way going forward. She said it adds another major issue on top of all the others. But did she say how sorry this made her? No. She agreed if we were going to re-commit she would be transparent. But she also said she felt like I would always be looking over her shoulder, suspicious, etc.

I don't know if I buy the idea about why she doesn't want to share the bed. I suspect she's still texting OM. Even after being caught, the urge will pull at her to contact him b/c she is addicted.

You may very well be right, I have no idea. We didn't talk a lot about the A itself. I didn't ask her why she ended it. But I still haven't seen any reason to not believe her...yet. She said the reason it was so hard to go NC with me the past week was because I was the one she was talking to about everything and that checks out with the feeling I got that the stuff she would tell me, she would have been telling him if they were talking. She didn't text at all yesterday. But who knows. Like I said, I was a little surprised about the bed issue. She hates sleeping in the spare room. But I can see why she would think coming back to the bed would signal she is re-committing.

I hope you told her you would not accept a "friendship" in place of the MR. From her actions, she is trying to stay in the same in-house separation status.

I clearly told her if I was staying here I saw no point other than to work on our MR. I told her I didn't want separate rooms or limbo. I sort of got conflicted about the ultimatum issue since she brought it up herself, but I stood firm on my thoughts that I didn't want in-house separation. Really, she agreed. She doesn't want that either. But she was very confusing because she doesn't want me gone but doesn't want in-house separation but doesn't want to re-commit. I think the answer is she doesn't know/can't face what she wants.

Did you agree with her about the co-dependent statement? Would she consider MC for co-dependent issues?

Yes, I think we probably both have some degree of co-dependency. That word is a bit hard to define but I think of it as the opposite of detachment. I think her points about losing independence and individuality rang true. And my willingness to stay no matter what was obviously a problem. I did bring up counseling or really any way to try to work on it and her answer was always the same--we are buried so deep, we went the wrong way for so long, etc that I don't know that it can be fixed. The feelings will still be there (or not be there). She said this several times, she doesn't buy the willingness over feelings stuff. She said "We can't just say starting at 8am tomorrow morning, we'll go and work on fixing all our issues." That's how she sees it.

Did expound on knowing she was a bully?

Not really. She cried and got quiet for a long time. I had laid out the parts of the boundary statement where I said she can't feel I owe her services, or wait on her hand and foot, or feel like her employee. That's when she got silent, cried, and said she knew she was a bully. Then she agreed it couldn't continue. But no real expounding. At a different point, she did talk about her frustration and resentment about the fact she works and didn't feel I did enough with the house. She admitted after a while she stopped caring about my schoolwork and whatever else I did because I have so many projects and she doesn't know which ones I will actually follow through on. She just knows the ones with the house got neglected. She also said I had improved a lot, but the resentment had built.

I sort of feel like the conversation sent me back to square one. I think her heart is definitely not in the right place. And she felt pushed into talking about stuff she wasn't ready to talk about. But I don't want limbo, so IDK what the right answer is. I want to have patience. But I don't know where to draw the line. And I don't know when to give up.

[44tries]

44, my W said almost the exact same things on bomb day. Almost verbatim to what you typed.

Look, don't read too much into it. Remember, believe nothign she says and only half of what she does!

Look WWs have an illusion of a perfect life post-LBH. But I am telling you, as the reality of that life draws closer the illusion starts to fade. Your W has been through an emotional roller-coaster. OM is always new, fresh, without the problems that have cropped up with you over the years, and so she's put a lot of emotional investment into that "future".

WWs do not like to give up the illusion. Plus they have to go through an emotional grieving of OM. Further, they are usually angry at LBH for getting into that way of the illusion. And they also usually are more sorry for getting caught than they are for the actual betrayal.

44, you need to remember that WWs can change. Think about how in love she was with you when you got married. Somewhere along the line she changed to where she is now. She CAN change back. She may not want to right now but the work you do from this moment forward can help her in that change.

You are under the same roof, that is a start. I have a lot of thoughts on how to go about this myself, but as I am fond of saying, every sitch is different. You are under the tutelage of sandi, you can't go wrong with her advice.

But, I will give you a piece of advice that helped so much in my sitch: keep your conversation with her fun and light 97.5% of the time. In MC my wife mentioned that as we interacted in that way she had started to see herself staying in the MR. I took advice of another anti-divorce expert where I would call her from work in the late morning, almost everyday, and would tell her something about work, or that I heard on the radio, or something I read on my Google feed. Anything short, light and fun. Then I would say "Ok well just wanted to share that, talk to you later! Goodbye." And then hangup.

I honestly believe she started to look forward to those calls. She is a SAHM, and she doesn't get a lot of human interaction from 8am-3:30pm. Sometimes I'd squeeze another call in early afternoon too, but that was about once a week.

Anyway, that went a long way with her. Mainly because we had that kind of relationship when we were dating and early in our marriage. Think about something similar that you used to do and incorporate that.

Otherwise, continue to detach, 180, GAL and be the best 44 you can be.

Don't be to down, this conversation went pretty much to the script.

Thanks for this, Steve. It helped to know your W said all the same things on bomb day. Although it also makes me feel more like I got sent back to square one, since I thought we were past bomb day.

I know things can change and she already struggles with the reality of having a perfect life without me. That's the main reason she isn't charging ahead with divorce. I just don't know how to proceed because Sandi emphasized not wanting limbo, and of course I don't prefer that, but if she needs more time then what?

Your idea about keeping the conversation light and fun resonates. That's partly why I began regretting our whole talk. If I had gone that route, she would have been much warmer and wanted to engage, etc. But I think the talk had to happen. IDK, at this point I don't really know. But now I will back off. I don't like having those conversations any more than she does and clearly talking doesn't convince her of anything.

Thanks for your support, Steve.