Affair, no feelings...is there hope? IV

[44tries]

If you give in too quickly, you'll likely experience a period of her showing better behavior, followed by a quick return of the old disrespect and self-entitlement attitude. So, you must be firm. If your WW says she is truly sorry and wants to work on the MR, let her know that you need to see some things change, to feel confident about her decision. If she starts telling you what you need to do for her.......just let her have her say. Depending if her attitude is okay. If she says she doesn't know what she wants, then tell her you know what you don't want, and proceed to tell her the following. At whatever point, the following boundaries need to be stated......if you mean it. If you won't stick to your resolve......then what's the point, right? She cannot think she can return to the same old behaviors and keep the M.

So, what exactly do you mean by give in too quickly? This is something I am confused on, because I have read Zeus' post about not taking them back too easily like ten times. I don't want to do it, despite the temptation to finally feel some relief and closeness. But if we have the conversation, and she agrees to commit, is that "giving in"? I mean I'm essentially telling her I will take her back, under "all in" conditions. I understand she will still have bad habits and I cannot soften on letting her get away with any of them. I just want to make sure I'm clear on what not "giving in too quickly" means.

* "In order for the MR to go forward, there are some behavior patterns that must change".

* "I will not stay in a MR where I am disrespected in any fashion".
"I will no longer tolerate your self-entitled attitude. I will not be treated as if I owe my services to you, expected to wait on you hand & foot, or give accountability. I will not tolerate you treating me as if you are my mother, my commanding officer, or my employer. Are we clear, so far? If you aren't willing to change this behavior, then we need to end the M, right now".

Side Note: If she is not willing to do this much, then there is no point in trying to discuss anything else. There is no point in discussing the affair, or bringing this & that up, b/c it all boils down to one word........disrespect. So, if she starts talking about how you made her feel, yada, yada.......just look firmly at her and say, "This is about what you are willing to do to save our M. If you can't treat me respectfully, then we need to get a divorce, because I will not continue tolerating it".

* "I will not stay in a MR with private and/or inappropriate friendships and/or affair". "You have betrayed my trust, and you brought OM into our M. We either go forward committed to being faithful, or we end the M now. If there is to be a M, then there will be no more private/secret texting. If you are not willing to be transparent in our M, then say so now".

Side Note: If she tries to turn this around and bring up how you've been so secretive lately, just hold up your hand in the stop position, and say, "That was after learning of your affair. You've talked a lot about your feelings, and I had hoped for once you would consider my feelings. I did nothing that was inappropriate or disloyal. I have never had an inappropriate relationship with another woman. I have remained faithful and loyal to you, although you made it clear that you did not want to have sex with me". If she accuses you of wanting to punish her, just say "No".

The statements in bold are boundaries. However, don't mention them being boundaries to her. You are simply stating what you will not tolerate in your life. That is what boundaries do. They protect us. That is why countries have boundaries; our property has boundaries; and we have personal boundaries for how others treat us. We don't allow people to just treat us any old way. Right? We either push back, or we remove ourselves from the situation.......but we don't simply ignore it or comply.

For now, these two boundaries are the most important. I am going to send this on to you, b/c I don't want to accidentally lose it. If you have questions, please ask.

These are perfect. They are exactly what the main two requirements should be (I know, I won't tell her they are "requirements" ). And your notes about what to do with her comebacks are also so helpful. I have a feeling, if she doesn't want to lose me, she is going to agree to anything but it will be hard to know how much of it is her desperation in the moment. But if she agrees, no matter the motivation, I then have the foundation to reference and can be firm about the boundaries never getting crossed.

WW: "I won't let you control me"!
You: "I am telling you what I will no longer tolerate, if we are going to stay M. You are free to decide if you will cooperate or not. If you have no intentions to show respect, that's your choice, but I have choices also. I will choose to get a divorce, rather than tolerate further disrespect".
WW: "Well, this is the way I am, so if you don't like it, then you are welcome to leave".
You: "Then I have my answer, and I see no point of continuing this discussion any longer".
WW: "Oh, that's typical. If you don't like something.......just walk away. Go into your bedroom and shut the door.
You: "I wanted an answer and you gave me one, so that's fine".
WW: "What about what I want, huh? What about my feelings? You didn't even care that I was stuck over there by myself. You waited till I was alone, and then you chose to lash out and punish me. You don't know what that did to me! You didn't even care enough to to just respond to my text".
You: "Look, we both are at a crossroads. I needed time to get my head clear. Before getting into saying things we might both regret latter, the first decision to make is whether or not we save our MR or get a divorce. I am telling you what I cannot tolerate any longer. You have the same right to say whatever you want. However, if you know at this moment you will refuse to change your behavior toward me........then I think it is pointless to continue".

WOW, this is so, so accurate! It sounds exactly like my W! Such helpful responses. She will either surrender when I try to disarm her self-absorbed defense/control weapons, or she won't and I walk. This is a similar feeling I had during the confrontation conversation. When she started with the question game and testing how far she could push, how much I knew, if she could get away with it...in the moment she knew she had "lost" and stopped struggling, the feeling I had was something I haven't felt in so long. Like she was finally not trying to arm wrestle me. I was finally in the driver's seat. I think it will be a long time before she is comfortable with me driving and stops trying to fight back, if we get there at all. Now I will make it clear that if she can't let go of that stubbornness, she loses me.

So, she will either give you a straight answer, or she try to wiggle out and find an alternative solution.

WW: "I couldn't wait to get back home and be with you. I wanted us to make love and tell you how sorry I was for everything. I dreamed of us taking a little trip......like a second honeymoon, to start over. Then I get here and find you cold and hateful, yelling ultimatums at me, before I can even tell you how I feel. But.....I guess my feelings aren't important to you. Maybe you are right. Maybe we should just get a divorce".

See how that was worked by your fake W (me) in her last response? ^^^^^^^. It is to make you regret what you've just told her and how you handled yourself. She is giving you a picture of something beautiful and than you got into a hurry and messed up everything. It's designed to put you into pursuit mode. Don't do it. Remain calm, whatever happens.

I see it!! So clearly. It will take strength, but I can do it. Now that I understand the full picture. It's amazing to realize my own cluelessness. She got so good at knowing how to make me fold every time.

Good grief, man! You aren't getting ready for your first date, your WW is coming home.

Some people may see this and think you have many lovely attributes, but I don't. I see a H with a lot of NGS.

O, I know. Don't worry. That's why I asked. I know she cares a lot about this kind of stuff, but I also know I am way too eager to comply. I'll make the house clean, but "lived in". I won't wash the cars.

Follow through with basically what I sent in the previous post. If you think I was too shaped tongued in places, you can bring it to my attention, or give a better example. I realize it sounds a lot more like ultimatums than boundaries. I just think you need to be that firm and not play pattiecake with her.

No, I think your examples were perfect. Besides, realistically my delivery will probably be a little less sharp than yours, by default. Me trying to live up to your sharpness probably ends up being just right .

The very best scenario would be if she came home and humbly apologized and ask for your forgiveness, and tell you she wanted to work together in having a good M. If (and that is a big IF) this should be the case, then you can ease into the same conversation, but maybe say it more tenderly. Make sense? I don't think it will take long before you'll know how sincere she is.

Yes, this makes sense. I agree.

Since she's in the military, what kind of trip could she plan?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this? Because of our location, there are tons of places we can travel to and it's a pretty high priority while we're here. She isn't on a deployment, so she can take leave and go on vacation, if that answers your question.

I will role play with you (me being the WW or the H, it doesn't matter). Tell me what role you want. I had written out some scenarios in the post I lost, which is probably for the best.....since I they may have sound a bit sharp.

Hmm...I guess I will be her, since I know her and can try to think up the exact kinds of things she is likely to say and you can show me how to respond Sorry about the lost post.

MWD says in her DR book that if you give an ultimatum, be prepared to back it up. I say the same goes for boundaries. (You can't always just walk away and think the person will respect you for it). The differences in the two is the ultimatums don't give much of a choice. The recepient hears, "Do it my way, or else". Some people don't believe boundaries should have consequences. Well, I do. What good are they if they are dishonored and there are no consequences?

Here is how I see it. You tell her what you will not tolerate. Now, she can do whatever she chooses. Of she chooses not to honor your boundary, then some action should take place as a response. Since it was your boundary, you are the one to choose the action. You said you would not tolerate disrespect any longer. So, the ball in your court. What will you do? If you've already announced what you'd do.......then you best do it. If you didn't say what you'd do......you still need to show action.

To me, ultimatums are saying do it my way or else. So, that may seem how my examples sounded to you, IDK. At this point......and how she pushed this to a head like a nasty pimple.....I think you should be firm in your delivery. If you want to call it an ultimatum or whatever.......it doesn't really matter. I think it will have about the same effect. All I ask is that you don't walk around in your house crowing about this & that being your boundaries. As long as you know what they are, that's the important part. If you use these two examples I sent previously, then you'll need to be ready to follow through if she won't agree to cooperate in showing you respect.

In many ways, this is another confrontation. Only this time, you are hitting hard, and there is just one answer you want to hear. Which is, "I am willing to cooperate and work to save our M". I will be surprised if it's that easy. I don't think she'll be that straight forward about it. Giving her a chance to saying something first, will give you a better idea of what she's thinking. Her waywardness is still there, I'm pretty sure.

I understand. It doesn't have to be something I state over and over, I just need to clear she knows/agrees and then be able and willing to back it up. I too would be surprised if it's that easy, I am trying not to get my hopes up. But that's a little bit where my struggle with the ultimatums comes in. If I give an ultimatum to a wayward wife, that can't end well right? I will be walking away. I'm still struggling with how to have patience and know she can't be fixed overnight, but also be firm about my boundaries and ready to walk. I think the key will be in her willingness to at least agree and try, and get smacked down when she gets out of line. But if she is still wayward and not ready to do that...I leave?

It sort of feels like I am building up the ability to push her farther and farther. Before, I gave no push back and that was the problem. Now, I already feel I have a lot more power to give pushes because I have been practicing and moving that line back, inch by inch, the same way it got to be so bad--slowly. I am seeing her need to change her technique, and gaining more confidence she won't just run away if I rock the boat. The dynamic is changing (and is certainly helped by the position she put herself in by cheating). But I think it takes time and there is still a breaking point; I can't rush in and hit her over the head too soon. I don't know if I'm making any sense...

I will be glad to help. I don't think it's necessary to present it at the same time you tell her the first two boundaries. Once that conversation dies down, and if it seems to go well and she's showing positive signs of cooperating, then you might suggest that each of you make separate lists of what you need in the M, which the other spouse can provide.

That sounds like a good idea. I think from the get-go, the main thing I "need" is respect, and that is covered by the first boundary. The second would probably be commitment, which is sort of built into the conversation about if she agrees to go all in on working on the MR (and not have any outside inappropriate relationships).

Also, she isn't coming back until Saturday now--the replacement's flight got cancelled. But, it will give me more time to prepare

[sandi2]

While I wait to hear from you today, I will write some scenarios as I think of them.

Scenario #1: WW comes home, and when she sees you, she hugs you and seems to struggle holding back tears. After she gets settled in, she initiates a conversation.....acting almost shy about it.
WW: "Are you still mad at me"?
You: "I'm not sure how I feel, at the moment".
WW: "Well, I don't care anything about the OM. I hope you know that, and I have no intentions of ever contacting him again. I hope we can have a fresh start".
You: "I'm afraid it's not that simple anymore".
WW: "What do you mean"?
You: "I've had time to do a lot of soul searching about my role in our relationship, and also, about what I need in a MR and from my wife".
WW: "Well, I've thought a lot about my feelings, too. I have had a lot of unmet needs for a long time. I'm not sure you can meet those needs anymore".
You: "You may be right".
WW: "So, are you saying you want a divorce"?
You: "I am saying I want a new relationship. Maybe it will be with you, or someone else. We can decide to move forward in a new and better relationship together, or if we get a divorce. However, if we decide to move forward, it won't be in separate bedrooms or any type of separation methods. At the moment, we need to decide if we do the work to save our M, or call it quits and file for a D".
WW: "I'm not ready for us to start having sex. I'm not sure my feelings will ever return".
You: "You have made your feelings well known to me. Your treatment toward me has affected my feelings, as well. There are other things that need to be understood and agreed upon before we even discuss sex". (Than you begin to lay out the boundary about respect, etc.)


Scenario #2: WW comes home and is all smiles, acting very nice, almost as if nothing has happened. You exchange pleasantries while she makes herself comfortable. You give her a chance to initiate a conversation about the sitch.

WW: "So, how have you been the past few days while not talking to me"?
You: "Surprisingly well. I've done a lot of thinking about the future".
WW: "I have given it a lot of thought, also. 44, I want you to know I am terribly sorry about the whole thing with OM. I didn't take it seriously. It just started out as friends, and he started getting serious, but I never felt serious about him. I was just in an unhappy place in our MR, and I wondered if I could feel attraction for someone else. (Notice a little twist & turn in her reasoning). Anyway, I have ended it, so it is over.
You: "I see, you just want to put it all behind us and continue on as before the OM came on the scene"?
WW: "He was never the problem. I told you......I don't know if my attraction can ever return. I think we should leave things as they are for a while, and work on our friendship. See where if we can become closer. I've been really hurt with how distant you've been, not sharing, not talking, being secretive. I need to know where you are going and when you will be home. That's only considerate, and I think I deserve that much".
You: "Yes, it is considerate for a couple to think of their spouse's feelings, not to have secrets, unknown activities, exclusive friendships, private texting, etc".
WW: "Oh I see, you just want to get back at me! Make me feel guilty! That's why you were playing your secret little games, to punish me. Well, forget it, b/c that isn't going to happen"!
You: "Hum....maybe. It's tempting, but no, there is little satisfaction there. I suppose I was hurting too badly myself. You had betrayed my trust, and I needed some space to think about my role as a husband and determine what changes I needed to make. Your actions indicated you saw a double standard in our MR.
WW: (Goes into all kinds of excuses or rattles off accusations and essentially blaming her H for every problem in the MR).
You: "I hear what you are saying. I heard you when you talked about your feelings last week. Now, I ask that you hear what what I have to say".

(You begin the discussion stating your boundaries about respect).

Scenario #3:WW comes home and is appears humble and sincerely apologizes for everything and asks if you can forgive her.

WW: "Can you forgive me"?
Yes: "Yes. However, you betrayed me and broke my trust, so I will need to see certain behaviors change, in order for me to be able to fully trust you".
WW: "What kind of changes? I've already ended things with OM. Besides, I'm not the only one who needs to make changes around here. Seems to me you have been taking a lot for granted....yada....yada".
You: Yes, there needs to be a lot of changes in both of us. I have thought of nothing else while you've been gone. At the moment, we need to decide if we are going to do the work to save the M, or quit. Do we go all in, or forsake it.......b/c I will tell you upfront that I will no longer accept a one-sided MR. We either reconcile and have a real M, or we end this mockery".
WW: "Wouldn't it best if we just learned to be friends, first, and then see how things go? B/c I'm not ready to resume sleeping together".
WW: "You can't have it both ways, W. Sleeping in separate beds is not bringing us closer together. It causes more distance. I am painfully aware of your feelings. My feelings have been affected, too. Before we can deal with those feelings in a healthy way, we need to make the decision to go forward building a new MR, or end it. I am tired of the mistreatment and disrespect, and frankly, I don't intend to endure it any longer". (Then go into the part about your boundary, respect, etc.).

Scenario #4: WW comes in the house and is nice, even loving toward you.

WW: "Can we just put this behind us and forget it ever happened"?
You: "I wish it was that simple".
WW: "It can be, if you'll let it".
You; Well, I've done a lot of thinking about it, and I am no longer willing to accept the relationship we previously had. I can't, and won't, sweep this under the rug and pretend nothing happened, b/c you broke my trust and betrayed me".
WW: "I think you are making too much out of it. I only kissed OM to see if I could feel like a normal woman. It didn't mean anything". If you are going to hold it over my head for the rest of my life, then we just need to fully separate".
You: "I don't intend to hold it over your head. Neither do I intend to shrug it off as nothing serious. My W carried on a secret and inappropriate relationship with another man. In my book, that is the epitome of disrespect......which fell in line with your overall disrespectful attitude and behavior toward me". (Begin the part with going forward and not accepting disrespect from her).


Scenario #5: WW comes home and immediately expresses remorse, is very emotional, etc. She shows humility, sorrowfulness, and begs for your forgiveness.

WW: "I've treated you terribly and am so sorry. I will do whatever it takes to make our MR better, if you will give me another chance". (I doubt it will sound this good....but this is just a scenario).

You: "I hope and pray you are being honest, b/c I have done a lot of hard thinking about our relationship and how I lived with your disrespectful behavior. I loved you so much that I lost sight of some very important issues. I don't want a divorce, but I won't continue going in the direction of our current relationship. If you are willing to work at showing me respectful behavior, then I will do my part. I don't expect your feelings for me to change overnight, but I do expect your behavior to change. I will not stay in a M where I am not treated with respect. I need to know if you will agree, or if we call it quits. I don't want a half-marriage where we sleep in separate rooms and pretend to have some sort of friendship. I want a real marriage, and a real wife who loves and appreciates me".
WW: "Can you forgive me"?
You: "Yes, for the inappropriate relationship with OM, I can forgive. However, I need your agreement that you will no longer have exclusive friendships, private texting, etc. You need to be transparent about your social communications. If you aren't willing, then I can't continue trying to build a life with someone I can't trust".
WW: "It may take me some time. You know I like to have my privacy, and I feel it has been violated. I don't know if I feel comfortable with you seeing everything. Besides, you broke my trust by snooping". (I don't know if she realizes that is how you know about OM, or not).
You: "You brought a third party into our M, so don't talk to me about how violated you feel. As for it taking you time......we aren't going to play that game. You either agree or you don't. It's that simple. There is no negotiation on this issue, and there is no point of talking about anything else, if you are not in agreement to be transparent in order to help me trust you going forward. If you aren't even willing to stop hiding who you are texting, then what makes you think you deserve another chance in a committed relationship....like marriage"?
WW: "Everyone needs a certain amount of privacy. I noticed you wanted privacy recently and was acting very secretive".
You: "That was after I had learned about your secret affair, and I had hoped you would wake up and realize that you can't demand accountability from me when you are not willing to be open as well. You wanted to control every move I made, have me report in to you.....but have your secret OM on the side. I'd call that a double standard. I have never acted inappropriately with anyone. I have been faithful to you. You can't demand accountability from me, and have your private life on the side. That doesn't work for me, and I won't accept that kind of life. I want a wife who loves me and appreciates what I do.....not tell me how she isn't attracted to me and then turn around to demand I give an account for every minute I am not in her sight. And, don't even get me started about your self entitled attitude, expecting to be waited on hand & foot just b/c you are bringing home a paycheck. I'm done with it".
WW: "Well, I think I do deserve a little attention, since all you do is stay home while I work".
You: "I am working very hard to earn a higher degree, which will draw a better salary. I don't mind doing my share around the house, but when you expect my services simply in return for room & board......I won't do it. I'm done with your entitlement cr@p".
WW: "You've said some pretty harsh things to me. I was ready to put everything behind us and try to make things right. But I see you don't feel the same way".
You: (Say nothing. Just look at her, not stirred and not shaken... ).
WW: "So I suppose this leaves us right back where we were".
You: "Not quite".
WW: "Why, what do you mean"?
You: "I don't intend to go back to the way things were. We either go forward with new behavior changes, or we divorce. No separation, no half-marriage-half separate-friendship arrangement".
WW: "I don't know. I'll have to think about it".
You" "I won't remain in this situation, and I won't wait long for you to decide if you want to stay M or get a D. If you wait long, then I will have to make the decision, myself".

[sandi2]

So, what exactly do you mean by give in too quickly? This is something I am confused on, because I have read Zeus' post about not taking them back too easily like ten times. I don't want to do it, despite the temptation to finally feel some relief and closeness. But if we have the conversation, and she agrees to commit, is that "giving in"? I mean I'm essentially telling her I will take her back, under "all in" conditions. I understand she will still have bad habits and I cannot soften on letting her get away with any of them. I just want to make sure I'm clear on what not "giving in too quickly" means.

I mean, you don't just take her word that she is going to commit or be transparent, or change her behavior and show respect. Some guys are so keyed up about just getting her to stay with him that they give a big sigh of relief and go right back into the same situation again. You have to hold her feet to the fire until you are convinced she has truly changed and is seriously trying her hardest to show respectful treatment. Your goal is not to just get her to stay. She has to prove herself. And you have to prove that you will not accept cr@ppy behavior. Understand? Getting past the initial "talk" where you let her know where you stand, is just the first step. Btw, I wrote about this very subject in my second thread to LBH's with a WW.

I have a feeling, if she doesn't want to lose me, she is going to agree to anything but it will be hard to know how much of it is her desperation in the moment.

That's part of not letting her back too easily. I'm always telling the LBH to make his WW "work" to get him back. If she doesn't, she won't respect or appreciate him....b/c she didn't have to work for it and got it too easily. That's called "spoiled"! She may be so emotional, she'll agree to most anything, but I kind of doubt it. You cannot budge from your position on going forward with a new MR or ending it. I know you are scared, but you have to take this hard stand and make her believe you are ready to end it, rather than accepting her disrespectful and entitled behavior.

the feeling I had was something I haven't felt in so long. Like she was finally not trying to arm wrestle me. I was finally in the driver's seat.

It/s b@lls, 44. Big ole b@lls of steel. Listen, we women love men with big b@lls. Draws us like flies to honey. Don't buy into her bluff.

I think it will be a long time before she is comfortable with me driving and stops trying to fight back, if we get there at all. Now I will make it clear that if she can't let go of that stubbornness, she loses me.

It's hard to relent the power when she's had it so long, but once she sees you can handle her, she'll like it. She may not like at first, in fact, I think you can count on it. She'll test you, but once you've proven yourself, she's going to fall in love with you.

I see it!! So clearly. It will take strength, but I can do it. Now that I understand the full picture. It's amazing to realize my own cluelessness. She got so good at knowing how to make me fold every time.

I am so relieved to hear you say so. I also sent a long, long post with about five detailed scenarios. I hope they will help you.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Since she's in the military, what kind of trip could she plan?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this? Because of our location, there are tons of places we can travel to and it's a pretty high priority while we're here. She isn't on a deployment, so she can take leave and go on vacation, if that answers your question.

Okay, well if she takes off, so be it. It doesn't change your position.

If I give an ultimatum to a wayward wife, that can't end well right?

It's not the best way, if you can word it where it doesn't sound like one. Actually, you are giving an ultimatum, which is that she start behaving like a respectful W or you are out. But maybe it won't sound so much like an ultimatum when you say it, as when I say it.

That sounds like a good idea. I think from the get-go, the main thing I "need" is respect, and that is covered by the first boundary. The second would probably be commitment, which is sort of built into the conversation about if she agrees to go all in on working on the MR (and not have any outside inappropriate relationships).

Yeah, we aren't going to worry about making a his & her list of wants/needs until we've got this other part clearly established. She'll probably want her say, but if she's truly remorseful, I don't think she'll be blaming and accusing you, trying to make you feel bad about her feelings. That's is so disgusting. This is the time for her to shut up and listen to what you have to say. But whatever........I think you'll be able to tell to some degree if she's really remorseful. I don't know she'll be remorseful about the disrespect (apart from the A) until after she has to start actually implementing respectful behavior.

[44tries]

While I wait to hear from you today, I will write some scenarios as I think of them.

Wow, Sandi, these scenarios are SO helpful! And so nuanced. How deliberate were you about what to say in each one? By that I mean, what if I ended up using stuff from more than one? Or is everything very specific? Also, you mention stating the boundaries at the end of each (except #5, although they were touched on within the dialogue)...so am I clear that the boundaries are to be stated before she makes a definitive commitment to go "all in"? I state them and if she is in agreement, then I confirm she is totally committed?

I find it interesting that scenario 5 seems to start out the most promising...and seemingly ends the least promising. To your question about the snooping, I managed to avoid that topic altogether so she does not know. I intend to keep it that way, I don't see any reason for divulging it as it was a 10 second glance and frankly, it was warranted. She never explicitly asked and I made it sound like I had seen enough during all the times she was blatantly texting him in front of me, while I drove, etc. I am going to read over the scenarios again as I prepare and if I have specific questions, I will ask. And I might try to come up with some other things I feel she may say and ask about responses. Thank you for taking the time to write all those out, I cannot emphasize how helpful they are.

O, one last question. Since I will be picking her up from the airport, I should avoid having any of this talk in the car, right? I don't know if she will launch into it, and the drive home is about 35 minutes. I'm sure I can make small talk about the trip and stuff if need be. For some reason, I have a bit of anxiety about the transition into the conversation in the case that she doesn't initiate (this would probably look something like scenario 2, with less overt questions from her). For all her controlling ways, she isn't really that dominant in personality, especially if she is uncomfortable, and I could see her just being nice and anxiously waiting for my move.

I mean, you don't just take her word that she is going to commit or be transparent, or change her behavior and show respect. Some guys are so keyed up about just getting her to stay with him that they give a big sigh of relief and go right back into the same situation again. You have to hold her feet to the fire until you are convinced she has truly changed and is seriously trying her hardest to show respectful treatment. Your goal is not to just get her to stay. She has to prove herself. And you have to prove that you will not accept cr@ppy behavior. Understand? Getting past the initial "talk" where you let her know where you stand, is just the first step. Btw, I wrote about this very subject in my second thread to LBH's with a WW.

I understand. Especially since I'm not overly worried that she is going to come back and demand a D or something, hopefully the relief if she agrees to work on the MR won't be too extreme. I get that the initial talk is just the first step and the real stuff comes when I prove I won't tolerate the past dynamics. I will read your second thread again (last time I read it, this topic wasn't my primary concern at the time ).

That's part of not letting her back too easily. I'm always telling the LBH to make his WW "work" to get him back. If she doesn't, she won't respect or appreciate him....b/c she didn't have to work for it and got it too easily. That's called "spoiled"! She may be so emotional, she'll agree to most anything, but I kind of doubt it. You cannot budge from your position on going forward with a new MR or ending it. I know you are scared, but you have to take this hard stand and make her believe you are ready to end it, rather than accepting her disrespectful and entitled behavior.

I am clear. I know the stand I have to make. I am a lot less scared now that I have already gained a lot of confidence pushing her and rocking the boat. And as I said above, I think I know her hand and she has given a lot of signs that me walking out the door is not something she wants (but I know that is very different than committing to go all in on the MR).

It/s b@lls, 44. Big ole b@lls of steel. Listen, we women love men with big b@lls. Draws us like flies to honey. Don't buy into her bluff.

Well, they feel good Sandi! I won't let them get away again. I know now so much of her control tactics are bluffs. I've been folding all this time while her hands are really nothing to be afraid of.

It's hard to relent the power when she's had it so long, but once she sees you can handle her, she'll like it. She may not like at first, in fact, I think you can count on it. She'll test you, but once you've proven yourself, she's going to fall in love with you.

This is very encouraging. I had sort of forgotten about that little fact and was prepping for a long, drawn out war. At first, you're right, it will be bloody. But hopefully it's not a long battle and if the end result is her falling back in love me, well you can imagine I will be quite pleased .

I am so relieved to hear you say so. I also sent a long, long post with about five detailed scenarios. I hope they will help you.

You don't need to hope, they are extremely helpful!

Okay, well if she takes off, so be it. It doesn't change your position.

I think I'm still confused about your original question about the trips I never implied she would take a trip to run away. All her talks about trips the past couple weeks have been her trying to plan a trip with me.

It's not the best way, if you can word it where it doesn't sound like one. Actually, you are giving an ultimatum, which is that she start behaving like a respectful W or you are out. But maybe it won't sound so much like an ultimatum when you say it, as when I say it.

Okay, this is good to know. That an ultimatum is in fact not ideal, but essentially what I need to say is one. I can try to be cognizant of it sounding like I'm trying to trap or control her (I think that would be the root of why an ultimatum is bad). Rather, I will make it clear that it's something I need to continue a relationship with her, and it's her choice whether she gives it to me.

Yeah, we aren't going to worry about making a his & her list of wants/needs until we've got this other part clearly established. She'll probably want her say, but if she's truly remorseful, I don't think she'll be blaming and accusing you, trying to make you feel bad about her feelings. That's is so disgusting. This is the time for her to shut up and listen to what you have to say. But whatever........I think you'll be able to tell to some degree if she's really remorseful. I don't know she'll be remorseful about the disrespect (apart from the A) until after she has to start actually implementing respectful behavior.

I agree. I'm not so hopeful to think that she won't have things to say about her hurt and frustrations with the MR...she is still self-focused. But I hope it won't be excessive, she can give me equal (or, frankly, greater) consideration, and the real line will be if she twists any of the blame on me for the A itself. Based on the confrontation conversation, I don't think she will, but you never know with a WW right? As far as the respect goes, frankly, I don't think she will totally "get" it right away, because even though she has admitted to treating me horribly I don't think she even realizes the full extent. I think you're right that it won't be until I start putting down some firmness and correcting her behavior that she will start to truly see and understand and feel real remorse for everything.

[sandi2]

How deliberate were you about what to say in each one? By that I mean, what if I ended up using stuff from more than one? Or is everything very specific?

You want the honest-to-goodness truth? I am seldom deliberate about anything I post. By that I mean I don't think it out, before I word it. (That may be pretty obvious in places). Anyway, I just started typing. I hope that doesn't disappoint you.......or scare you to death. (lol) I had intended yesterday to try to organize something, but I ran short on time, so I shot from the hip. So, you don't have to use my exact words (that would be a lot to memorize, anyway..... ) or be that specific. I was simply trying to give an idea of how she might approach you, and how you could handle it.....since you seem to like the idea of scenarios.

Hope it wasn't too confusing at the end of each scenario where I referred back to the two boundaries. So, each scenario was kind of leading up to the final statement of your boundaries and/or anything attached I previous had said with those. I just didn't want to rewrite all that long speech after each scenario. If you are confused, please ask away. Oh, and for the fifth one, I should have added it at the bottom, just to make sure you get in the boundary about not tolerating disrespect in any form......b/c most of the 5th one was more on the subject of her secret affair.

I didn't write out every possible scenario, b/c there could always be something unpredictable, however I hope you'll practice using various things she might say and how you would handle it. I did not write the very best case scenario, which would be for her to feel very remoresful and to be 100% in and willing to do whatever you said without any hesitation. You would still need to state your boundaries, but obviously, you would not have to be harsh. Firmly, yes. You will take you cue from her attitude and how she reacts to everything. I didn't write it out, b/c frankly, I just doubt she's going to come home feeling completely remorseful. Now, she may feel some guilt over the affair, but you really didn't get into discussing how badly she disrespected you in other ways, when you talked with her on the phone......or did you? She may not be expecting anything but talking about the OM. Waywards find justifications for their actions, and that is one reason why it's hard for them to feel remorse quickly. But it's needed for both your sakes.

I find it interesting that scenario 5 seems to start out the most promising...and seemingly ends the least promising.

Funny you should say so, b/c I had not planned out any scenario or how the discussion would go, but when I started the fifth one, I thought, "Well, may I should try to write one as the the best case scenario", but first thing you know.......it took a turn. And that's just likely what will happen IRL. If you see her start out in a somewhat positive direction.....she could turn on a dime.

She never explicitly asked and I made it sound like I had seen enough during all the times she was blatantly texting him in front of me, while I drove, etc

Okay, that's good. If she asks or accuses, you don't have to reveal your source of intel. Not that it really matters in your case, but it just gives her room to argue, be stubborn, etc. She is the one who did wrong, so don't let her twist it around to sound like you were wrong to look.

one last question. Since I will be picking her up from the airport, I should avoid having any of this talk in the car, right?

I thought she had arranged for someone else to meet her. Anyway........No, you don't try to have small talk with her during the ride home, 44! You nice guy, you!! Let her worry about what to say during that ride home. As wordy as you are, she'll get concerned seeing you not having anything to say, don't you think? Why should you be asking her anything about her trip? Doesn't that equate to calling her and responding to her texts when she was there? Maybe not, but You could care less about her trip, and making idle chit-chat for 35 min. Get it?

So, just say hello, and speak if it is absolutely neccessessary to have some type of response.....then mainly use a one syllable grunt. don't do a lot of smiling and acting so nappy to see her. Know what I mean? Act serious. Do not try to make friendly chit-chat on the way home, b/c this is your usual MO, and she'll expect it. She should be nervous and worried about how you are going to act when she comes home. Seeing you chattering away like Mr. Nice Guy, she'll think...."Hey, no worries, he's just fine and I will continue being a bully"! If she decides to take advantage while you are behind the wheel, (and come to think of it, why wouldn't she) and starts trying to get into everything, you can tell her to wait till getting home to have this discussion......and not while you are driving. This may be where she uses the scenario......"Are you still made at me"? Or.....you can just wing it, but I think you'd do better waiting till you get home and you have your bearings. I hope she pees in her pants!

I have a bit of anxiety about the transition into the conversation in the case that she doesn't initiate (this would probably look something like scenario 2, with less overt questions from her).

(I can picture you in my mind). You are nervous about the transition b/c you have been apart a few days and knowing this is all coming. Out of nervousness, you may feel/want to chatter her ears off......but resist the temptation and notice how nervous your calmness makes her. Seriously, if she has any maturity whatsoever, she should expect to at least get talking from you! This little switcheroo should help build your confidence.

For all her controlling ways, she isn't really that dominant in personality, especially if she is uncomfortable, and I could see her just being nice and anxiously waiting for my mov

She doesn't have to own a dominant personality to be wayward. I hope she is very nervous and anxiously waiting for you to make the first move. That's why I said I hope she pees in her pants. She should be very concerned. Don't go all melty-cheese on me, now. You can't start feeling sorry for her, if you detect her being nervous. If you see her tear up and start crying while you are giving her the tough talk......don't you dare start melting. Don't offer to hold her, hug or comfort her. Women have used tears for 6,000 years to manipulate men. Seriously, I hope she does cry over her bad treatment of you. This could be the beginning of something good.......like a wonderful MR, once she grows up and loses that self entitlement.

I think I started those scenarios with her making the initial move into the talk, but I was just trying to show you some idea how to respond and keep on track. If you initiate the talk ......then you can follow that post I sent with the two boundaries, b/c that was in itself a scenario.

Okay, this is good to know. That an ultimatum is in fact not ideal, but essentially what I need to say is one. I can try to be cognizant of it sounding like I'm trying to trap or control her (I think that would be the root of why an ultimatum is bad). Rather, I will make it clear that it's something I need to continue a relationship with her, and it's her choice whether she gives it to me.

Well, when you say it like that......you aren't controlling. You are telling her what you cannot and will not tolerate any longer. You aren't telling her she has no choice in the matter. In fact, you are wanting to know her decision, rather than continuing on pretending some half-marriage arrangement where she is manipulating you at every turn. So, IMHO, it is not an ultimatum, but I figure someone reading would see it differently. I have read the differences between boundaries and ultimatums, and have even written posts about it, but I lost my bookmarks and yesterday my brain was too tired.....so I coped out and just said, okay call it an ultimatum, I don't care. (lol)

I guess I just misunderstood about her planning some trip. So....never mind.

I will end for today. If you think of something, let me know. I feel good about this and you are going to handle it fine. You have someone very powerful in your corner. He loves her just as much as you, and God wants this M to work, too. If she won't be the W she is suppose to be, you'll be hurt, but you will heal and God will take care of you. I'm saying you, the man I know as 44, are going to be just fine with or without this woman in your life. But I feel you two are going to make it. ((hugs))

[Zues126]

Hi 44!

I read your comment about rereading my post and was very confused, I didn't remember writing a post recently to you about taking your spouse back too soon. I started going through your threads and couldn't find it, and then it hit me that you might be referring to a thread I wrote a while back to the general DB community. So let me start by sharing that it cheered me up to know that something I contributed was of value. I only wish I could take more burden off of you.

Then I realized I hadn't actually posted on your thread before. I haven't been posting as much lately. But in actuality I have been following your sitch very closely. Maybe because you have Sandi and Artista posting to you and I always like to read their posts. But also because you have a lot in common with me in the sense of some NGS tendencies, a deliberate and analytical approach, and a deep love for your WW and desire to save your marriage. Maybe this isn't so rare, non-analytical people may not find their way to forums, nor those who don't want to save their Ms, and I think NGS is a darn epidemic especially in these crisis. But still, there's more than that, I just feel like I get where you're coming from.

So I wanted to post and let you know that I'm following and rooting for you and am proud with the work you've done and the path you're on. You've got a good head on your shoulders and some of the best in the businesses giving you guidance and support. Keep fighting the good fight and we're all in your corner!

[44tries]

You want the honest-to-goodness truth? I am seldom deliberate about anything I post. By that I mean I don't think it out, before I word it. (That may be pretty obvious in places). Anyway, I just started typing. I hope that doesn't disappoint you.......or scare you to death. (lol) I had intended yesterday to try to organize something, but I ran short on time, so I shot from the hip. So, you don't have to use my exact words (that would be a lot to memorize, anyway..... ) or be that specific. I was simply trying to give an idea of how she might approach you, and how you could handle it.....since you seem to like the idea of scenarios.

No, it doesn't disappoint or scare me . I just wondered. Knowing that, I will feel free to take bits and pieces from each if it's appropriate.

Hope it wasn't too confusing at the end of each scenario where I referred back to the two boundaries. So, each scenario was kind of leading up to the final statement of your boundaries and/or anything attached I previous had said with those. I just didn't want to rewrite all that long speech after each scenario. If you are confused, please ask away. Oh, and for the fifth one, I should have added it at the bottom, just to make sure you get in the boundary about not tolerating disrespect in any form......b/c most of the 5th one was more on the subject of her secret affair.

Thanks for clarifying about #5. I understand not wanting to rewrite the boundary speech five times . The only thing I'm confused about is having the boundary speech before confirming she wants to work on the MR. That is the right order, right? I understand the idea that she should know what I expect before committing, but it also seems a bit odd to start laying out the boundaries before I know for sure that she even wants to continue. I guess as the actual scenario plays out, I will have a good idea which direction it's going before getting to the boundary speech, so maybe this confusion is just me over-analyzing ahead of time.

I didn't write out every possible scenario, b/c there could always be something unpredictable, however I hope you'll practice using various things she might say and how you would handle it. I did not write the very best case scenario, which would be for her to feel very remoresful and to be 100% in and willing to do whatever you said without any hesitation. You would still need to state your boundaries, but obviously, you would not have to be harsh. Firmly, yes. You will take you cue from her attitude and how she reacts to everything. I didn't write it out, b/c frankly, I just doubt she's going to come home feeling completely remorseful. Now, she may feel some guilt over the affair, but you really didn't get into discussing how badly she disrespected you in other ways, when you talked with her on the phone......or did you? She may not be expecting anything but talking about the OM. Waywards find justifications for their actions, and that is one reason why it's hard for them to feel remorse quickly. But it's needed for both your sakes.

She did bring up her bad treatment of me on her own during our phone conversation. She seems to have some awareness of her bad habits because this is not the first time she has told me she knows her behavior toward me can get out of control. Not that we discuss it often, and I honestly cannot remember what I have said in response to these admissions/apologies in the past. I don't think I was too quick to forgive or downplay, but let's just assume I was way too passive about it . This time, on the phone, I made sure to reinforce what she said about her horrible treatment. I wasn't a jerk, but I said something like "yes, you have been disrespectful in a lot of ways and it isn't okay". That was actually when she became so distraught she couldn't talk anymore. I don't think she was expecting me to be so firm in agreement. You might remember one of her follow up texts said "I can barely live knowing and hearing how awful I was." That was directly referring to the part of the conversation where she brought up her bad treatment. Anyway, I'm not sure where her remorse for that lies on the sincerity scale, but I think there is at least some.

Funny you should say so, b/c I had not planned out any scenario or how the discussion would go, but when I started the fifth one, I thought, "Well, may I should try to write one as the the best case scenario", but first thing you know.......it took a turn. And that's just likely what will happen IRL. If you see her start out in a somewhat positive direction.....she could turn on a dime.

This is probably very accurate. I'm trying to be prepared for anything and for wild swings. My biggest concern is if she shows a lot of ambivalence, expressing whatever concerns she has about moving forward to work on the MR. I don't want to fall into the trap where I start trying to convince her. I can see her saying things like "IDK if we just don't have a connection and aren't meant for each other, or if I just refuse to let it in." Or "Maybe I'm just too damaged. If I really had true love to offer, it wouldn't be so hard." "You don't deserve to let my inability to be happy prevent you from a happy life." "No one else should be dragged down by my repeated cycle to self-sabotage everything good in my life." I'm making this up, but you get the idea...a bunch of self-focused musings, feeling sorry for herself, saying she has issues but they can't be fixed. She could very well suffer from depression or some other mental health issue, but she refuses to get help due to fear for her career. For this same reason, I'm worried she will be resistant to counseling.

Anyway, you can see how if she says things like the above, me being analytical Mr. Nice Guy, my instinct is going to be to try to offer solutions. Suddenly, I'm over-explaining and sounding like I'm trying to convince her why her issues don't mean our MR is doomed. If you have any tips about how to respond to any "woe is me" tangents, I would be grateful.

Okay, that's good. If she asks or accuses, you don't have to reveal your source of intel. Not that it really matters in your case, but it just gives her room to argue, be stubborn, etc. She is the one who did wrong, so don't let her twist it around to sound like you were wrong to look.

Got it, I won't worry about evading/lying on this one particular issue, but I don't think it will come up.

I thought she had arranged for someone else to meet her. Anyway........No, you don't try to have small talk with her during the ride home, 44! You nice guy, you!! Let her worry about what to say during that ride home. As wordy as you are, she'll get concerned seeing you not having anything to say, don't you think? Why should you be asking her anything about her trip? Doesn't that equate to calling her and responding to her texts when she was there? Maybe not, but You could care less about her trip, and making idle chit-chat for 35 min. Get it?

She tried to say she would have work do it, but she wanted me to all along. I wasn't going to play her game where she tried to say she wouldn't bother me and hoped I would chase. At some point, she just directly asked me.

Ahh, NGS rears it's ugly head Okay, no small talk. Understood.

So, just say hello, and speak if it is absolutely neccessessary to have some type of response.....then mainly use a one syllable grunt. don't do a lot of smiling and acting so nappy to see her. Know what I mean? Act serious. Do not try to make friendly chit-chat on the way home, b/c this is your usual MO, and she'll expect it. She should be nervous and worried about how you are going to act when she comes home. Seeing you chattering away like Mr. Nice Guy, she'll think...."Hey, no worries, he's just fine and I will continue being a bully"! If she decides to take advantage while you are behind the wheel, (and come to think of it, why wouldn't she) and starts trying to get into everything, you can tell her to wait till getting home to have this discussion......and not while you are driving. This may be where she uses the scenario......"Are you still made at me"? Or.....you can just wing it, but I think you'd do better waiting till you get home and you have your bearings. I hope she pees in her pants!

This made me laugh!! I will make her sweat (or pee her pants).

(I can picture you in my mind). You are nervous about the transition b/c you have been apart a few days and knowing this is all coming. Out of nervousness, you may feel/want to chatter her ears off......but resist the temptation and notice how nervous your calmness makes her. Seriously, if she has any maturity whatsoever, she should expect to at least get talking from you! This little switcheroo should help build your confidence.

The bold sentence confused me a bit, but I think I understand. I will resist temptation to be nice and chatty and be ultra cool, calm. You are saying she will expect me to talk? So the calmness will make her nervous, right?

She doesn't have to own a dominant personality to be wayward. I hope she is very nervous and anxiously waiting for you to make the first move. That's why I said I hope she pees in her pants. She should be very concerned. Don't go all melty-cheese on me, now. You can't start feeling sorry for her, if you detect her being nervous. If you see her tear up and start crying while you are giving her the tough talk......don't you dare start melting. Don't offer to hold her, hug or comfort her. Women have used tears for 6,000 years to manipulate men. Seriously, I hope she does cry over her bad treatment of you. This could be the beginning of something good.......like a wonderful MR, once she grows up and loses that self entitlement.

This will be the hardest thing!! No more melty-cheesy 44. I will not offer any consolation if she cries. It helps to think of it as manipulation, even if she is being sincere.

I think I started those scenarios with her making the initial move into the talk, but I was just trying to show you some idea how to respond and keep on track. If you initiate the talk ......then you can follow that post I sent with the two boundaries, b/c that was in itself a scenario.

This makes sense. If she doesn't initiate, I will just move forward with the boundaries talk. I guess this will sort of be assuming she wants to keep our relationship? If she doesn't, she will say so? This kind of goes back to my original question of which comes first...

Well, when you say it like that......you aren't controlling. You are telling her what you cannot and will not tolerate any longer. You aren't telling her she has no choice in the matter. In fact, you are wanting to know her decision, rather than continuing on pretending some half-marriage arrangement where she is manipulating you at every turn. So, IMHO, it is not an ultimatum, but I figure someone reading would see it differently. I have read the differences between boundaries and ultimatums, and have even written posts about it, but I lost my bookmarks and yesterday my brain was too tired.....so I coped out and just said, okay call it an ultimatum, I don't care. (lol)

Lol. Okay, I get it. I think it depends on how you look at it, but in this case, it doesn't really matter. She needs to decide if she wants the MR or not, and know she can't have in-betweensies (yes, I just made that word up). She might not feel totally convicted, but I think (hope) if I make her choose all or nothing, she will choose all. To steal a line from MWD, we can always get divorced. Committing to give it our best shot doesn't have to mean we are trapped as prisoners in an unhappy MR forever. I feel this would be her biggest hesitation--to know she can't promise her feelings will return or whatever other [insert woe is me problem here], and be afraid she will never get another chance to escape (remember, I used to be the guy she knew would never leave). Oo back to the temptation I know I will have to say all these things...I think I need to tell myself to state the boundaries and then STFU...

I will end for today. If you think of something, let me know. I feel good about this and you are going to handle it fine. You have someone very powerful in your corner. He loves her just as much as you, and God wants this M to work, too. If she won't be the W she is suppose to be, you'll be hurt, but you will heal and God will take care of you. I'm saying you, the man I know as 44, are going to be just fine with or without this woman in your life. But I feel you two are going to make it. ((hugs))

Thank you so much, Sandi. All your help means the world to me. I know you are right, and I will be just fine either way. But, I hope your feeling is right, and we will make it.

[44tries]

Hi 44!

I read your comment about rereading my post and was very confused, I didn't remember writing a post recently to you about taking your spouse back too soon. I started going through your threads and couldn't find it, and then it hit me that you might be referring to a thread I wrote a while back to the general DB community. So let me start by sharing that it cheered me up to know that something I contributed was of value. I only wish I could take more burden off of you.

Then I realized I hadn't actually posted on your thread before. I haven't been posting as much lately. But in actuality I have been following your sitch very closely. Maybe because you have Sandi and Artista posting to you and I always like to read their posts. But also because you have a lot in common with me in the sense of some NGS tendencies, a deliberate and analytical approach, and a deep love for your WW and desire to save your marriage. Maybe this isn't so rare, non-analytical people may not find their way to forums, nor those who don't want to save their Ms, and I think NGS is a darn epidemic especially in these crisis. But still, there's more than that, I just feel like I get where you're coming from.

So I wanted to post and let you know that I'm following and rooting for you and am proud with the work you've done and the path you're on. You've got a good head on your shoulders and some of the best in the businesses giving you guidance and support. Keep fighting the good fight and we're all in your corner!

Hey Zues!

Yes, I was in fact referring to the post you wrote for the community. I didn't check the date to see how long it's been since you wrote it, but it is linked somewhere (maybe in the resource thread?). It was so helpful! That post, along with Sandi's second LBH thread, is like the definitive guide on how to reconcile the "right" way. I'm glad you were cheered up to directly see someone getting value

Thanks so much for your touching words. It means a lot to know there are people following and rooting for me. It definitely sounds like we are very similar and you "get it" (and I agree, NGS is an epidemic!). Your encouragement is so appreciated. I hope one day I can give back the same way you have.

[Mowgli]

Good luck today!

Not adding anything that Sandi hasn't already said better.

You got this!

[ovrrnbw]

So how have you made since the last time you posted? NC, I hope.

As I said yesterday, I think we all are on the same page. I may adding too much, trying to prepare you. I don't want you getting confused again, okay? However, if you don't understand how or when something is to take place, just ask. If I know, I'll speak up.

This is really good insight.. and also crushing for me. It kills me to think I made my W feel that way. And I can definitely see why it would cause such vulnerability to cheating.

Don't take responsibility or blame for her decision to cheat. Don't make statements to her like the one quoted above. I understand what you mean, but she won't be mentally/emotionally in a place to hear it, without taking full advantage of you. Many LBH's say something along those lines, thinking they are meeting the WW half way. No, he can't says things that sound as if he is taking responsibility for any of her bad behavior. Those were her free choices to make. Waywardness is not forced on another person. It begins with a negative mental attitude toward the spouse. It's like a lazer beam that is directed solely at him. She blames everything wrong in her life on him. The disrespectful actions begin to reflect what is in the heart, and finally rebellion acts out. Currently, she will want you to take blame for everything that went wrong in the MR.....including her A. It will be a big mistake if you agree. If there was ever a time you stand up for yourself, it is now. Do not give in or back down, thinking it will work out. It's only enabling her wayward mindset.

Keep in mind the part you played......which was the passive, pick your battles, keep the W happy, yes dear, beta male characteristics. The more a man acts like another female, the less sexual attraction his W will feel for him. That's why I get all up in the air when men start talking about losing their best friend (their wife). She has other women who can be her best friends. The H should not be her BFF. His position (and her position) are uniquely established and designed by God to be loyal, intimate, sexual mates for a lifetime. They are more than partners. They are more than friends. They are lovers who are bonded together as one body. They have responsibilities in maintaining a loving and caring life together.....and to put it above all others. It takes a lot of effort to keep the flirtiness, playfulness, and sexiness in a lifelong MR. It takes a lot of effort to keep interested in what each other is doing, and to find a common activity you both really love doing together. It gets to be harder to find time to just be alone together and really pay attention to each other's emotional needs. If it stops, it won't be long until their daily lives and the sex becomes routine and dull.......and sex will probably taper off. They become more like roommates and learn to just "settle". Then if one spouse decides they can't live that way any longer and leaves......the left behind spouse will say s/he lost their best friend. What? Best friend! S/he needs to go back and review what a MR is suppose to be. Acting like a best friend, instead of a lover, is what got them into the mess in the first place. Calling your spouse your best friend is a demotion, IMHO. There is only one person who can qualify as your spouse.....and you're going to demote him/her to a friend's position? Anyway.....I'm getting away from my subject.

The most important thing needed is her willingness to do the necessary work. If she cooperates, then these other things will come........if her heart is right. As long as her heart is resentful and selfish......then those feelings won't come b/c you just can't have a loving, happy MR with resentment, selfishness, and disrespect in the heart.

And how will I know if she gains this willingness? She will say so?

It would be wonderful if she spoke up and said she was willing to do whatever work was necessary to save the MR. If you were to tell her how she had to stop bossing you around, expecting you to cater to her, stop interrogating you, drop the self entitlement, start showing you respect as her H and as a man.........she might she'll try or she's willing....IDK. Somehow, I don't think she's going to make it that easy. Even if she agrees to do whatever you may list as stipulations to reconciling......for her to actually "do it", is another matter. Lip service isn't worth a pinch of salt if there is no action to follow.

I kind of regret saying that willingness was more important than remorse and commitment, b/c I think it confused you. Maybe it confused someone reading it, I hope not. Anyway, let me try to explain better. When I was a WW and had joined the board looking for someone to help me decide what to do, I finally made the decision to "do the right thing" and end my affair and stay in my M. I was not remorseful. In all the things different ones said to me, trying to get me to end the A and give my M another chance, there was one question I was asked that stood above all the others. "Sandi, for now, can you just make the choice to do the right thing"? In other words, they weren't telling me what they thought the right thing was. They weren't telling me how I should feel about anything. They said to do what I believed was the "right" thing to do. Well, that had hit me hard, b/c basically, that is who I am. I am a "Thou shalt, and Thou shalt not" type of person. (I realize how that sounds, considering I was in an A at the time). I knew I had to get back to that person again. But at that moment, I was so emotionally low and so tired that it was so difficult to find enough willingness in me to just get to the first level of willingness. That's pretty low! I strictly made my decision based on it being the morally & spiritually right thing to do. And let me tell you, I felt as if I had just sacrificed my life. I had no hope, no positive feelings, and certainly no excitement! I was so depressed in the following days that my adult D called a friend who was a RN, and was told to take me to the doctor immediately.

The first thing I did was end the A. The feelings of remorse did not come for almost two years. It's a long story and I won't take the time to explain why it took that long. I'll just say that my H should have required much, much more from me than I gave those first two years. However, he sat back and let me do pretty much whatever I wanted.......as long as he knew I wasn't contacting the other man. I was transparent (not that he asked, b/c he wasn't the one here getting the tools), and I learned that much from the board. delve ally worked on showing outward respect to him. Eventually, I began to feel the respect I was showing. I worked on my heart.......which is why it probably took nearly two years. Just b/c I had made the decision to stay in the M did not mean all my waywardness went out the window! No sir! Plus, with waywardness, there is a lot of stubborn pride. Some people call it false pride. It's bad. It's what keeps a person from apologizing to the one they've hurt. And if you already blamed your H for you having an affair in the first place.......you aren't going to be very quick to offer a sincere apology. So, anyway, I was coming home from work every day and hitting the DB board. I would stay here until I couldn't keep my eyes open and then hit the bed. Get up and do it all over the next day. It was hard, b/c there's not a lot of advice on the board for waywards. Oh yeah, a lot of H's want to tell a WW the same stuff he wishes his W would do.....but they didn't have a clue as to the mindset of a wayward. So, we learned together. Since my H wouldn't talk, I learned more how he probably felt by listening to the LBH's on the board. That had a lot to do with softening my heart. I also had some terrific mentors, and at that time, we could contact each other privately. So it helped a lot.

Sorry.....I didn't mean to get off into all of that ^^^^^^^^!

Anyway, I never want to imply that remorse is not important. If it doesn't happen, I am not sure if the WW ever has much compassion for her hurt H. I mean, I just don't know. What's to prevent her ongoing justifications and blaming him for her actions, rather than taking full responsibility? You see, I think there is a difference in regretting something you did......from being deeply sorry for doing it. When you are so sorry that you hurt your spouse in such a shameful & disgraceful manner that your heart feels as if it's breaking......that describes remorse, IMHO. There is no sense of self-entitlement, whatsoever. There is no haughty attitude. There is no anger, resentment, or bitterness. There is no pointing a finger at him and accusing or blaming. There is no scorekeeping. There is no thoughts of how she felt then or feels now. There is only concern for the betrayed and terribly hurt spouse. The cold, hard heart has finally softened. The remorseful WW doesn't have arrogant expectations! She doesn't lay down the rules for what she needs from her H! At least, not at that point in time. If truly remorseful, she only prays that someday he can forgive her. Hopefully, these feelings will lead to full repentance (which means turning away from what you were doing). IMHO, it's that remorse and repentance that really humbles the heart and makes it possible for the WW to start replacing those negative emotions for positive thoughts and feelings for her H and their MR. It is like growth. It doesn't happen all at one time. You see, a lot of LBH's don't realize that the WW has a tremdous amount of heart surgery that must be done, and then she has to go through the rehabilitation....so to speak. She has to get her heart & attitude right, and then follow through with the right actions.

Since only God can see the heart of man, we only have the outward signs to observe. So, here is what you look for if she is genuine about wanting to save the MR. Her attitude, words and actions are paralleled. They match. She isn't showing a bad attitude. She isn't saying one thing but acting quite another way. They all match.

Sorry for writing a book. No telling what all has been posted while I was rattling.

Very informative post, I'm glad you wrote a book. Thank you.