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#2789193 05/10/18 12:33 AM
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Link to previous thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2774656#Post2774656

Rose, I've thought a lot about what you said, and you're right, kicking her out of my house for this isn't the best way to go. But I think I am done trying to save her from the consequences of her actions. I haven't seen her since the incident, but I sent her a text saying I'm still very hurt and upset, but I love her very very much and miss her. She sent me a heart icon in response.

There's not been anything else going on in the last week. W and I were supposed to sit down with a mediator, but W was too sick, so we rescheduled for today, but she's still too sick. Who knows if we'll ever get together?

Friends have been on me to update my wardrobe, so I went out with two different female friends and played human Ken doll, and picked up a few new threads.

One of them happened to be talking to W, who knew about it, and said "I've been trying to get him to do that for years." I'm not even going to begin to speculate about what that means.


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I had a conference at school with W and two of D16's teachers, and her guidance counselor. She will fail at least one of her required classes this year. We discussed allowing her to do extra credit work to get her grade up, but we all decided that it was best to let her fail (there are a lot of reasons that I haven't discussed here, but she has a history of people bending over backward to accommodate her; it's time she stops expecting that) and face the consequences. W was onboard.

I showed up at the meeting wearing some of my new clothes, and W at least noticed they were new. We talked about how sick she's been and how high her temperature was. I was sympathetic, but not overly so.

We have a session scheduled with a mediator tomorrow, so hopefully we can agree on the particulars of the separation, and get this done this week or next. I'm sure some issues will be contentious, but I think we agree on most things. Wish me luck.


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Good luck Jim. You will be find. Congrats on the new threads, were you wearing smell good as well?


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This process is not a sprint it's a marathon! Patience, Patience, Patience.
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lol joejoe, I'm not sure what "smell good" is, but I suspect cologne. No, I don't really like it, so I don't wear it. If I did, it would have only been to get her to notice, and I don't really care.

Mediation went ok. Like I said, we're not all that far apart, and we spent most of the time going over the settlement proposal written by her lawyer, and all three of agreed it wasn't written well. I'm glad we are doing this with a mediator, at relatively low cost, versus us and our lawyers in one room. We basically rewrote the proposal ourselves, and it's going well. Just a few numbers we didn't have, well, really, a few numbers SHE didn't have. We're getting together again on Monday to hopefully finish.

The only times there was any tension was when we discussed how long alimony should last, her taking the position that the duration should start when she moved out, and me taking the position it should start when she filed. I suggested we table it until later, and we moved on. Also, there was some tension at the end when she suggested I continue to pay child support after S18 graduates High School in two weeks (because otherwise "how will W pay for half of his college??????" "Since you filed for divorce, that's not my problem.") But, we basically just tabled it and moved on.

Again, I wore new clothes; she didn't say anything, but I'm sure she noticed. Doesn't matter.


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I am absolutely freakin' miserable.

We went to mediation again today, and looked over the draft divorce decree (I guess that's what it's called.) typed up by our mediator. We agreed on everything, but we still have to work out the money. W is still figuring out the dollar value of stock issued to her by her company, and we have to get current assessments on our houses, and then we can divide up the assets. That part shouldn't be difficult; I don't care which half I get as long as I get half.

But, I am just miserable. Seeing it in black and white crushed me. I was able to hold it together in the meeting, but I'm weeping at the keyboard, and am overwhelmed with sadness. I'm sure it will pass eventually, but right now I just want to curl up in a ball in a dark room.


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Jim, those papers symbolize so many things. You have a right to feel miserable. All those years you were committed to your wife and it came to this...why? I would be feeling the same way. This has been a long process for you with different trigger points and this is one of them. I can't write much now but will try to write more later.

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Sorry Jim, it is tough. I can tell you I had the same experience as we went through the process. There is something about the finality of it all that stirred it up in me. It wasn't the BD feeling but just an overall rush of emotions. I was mentally exhausted.


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Jim, very understandable for you to be upset but now you pick yourself up and know that there is a wonderful life just up the street for you. After you typed this up and read a few threads what are you going to do now? Go for a run, walk, listen to music.

GAL is part of what we do! time for you! Call a friend go out.

Divorce can open up some great stuff for you!


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Thanks, Nicole.

J9, you always seem to have it together, and it helps to know you dealt with the same things.

bhappy, I went for a long walk (beautiful day yesterday), sat outside on my patio and read my book, and when my kids came home, spent time with them. Today, though, I need to be more responsible... pay bills, do yard work, etc.

I couldn't sleep last night.... combination of jet lag, and going over my situation. I am weakening, thinking of asking her to reconsider before everything is finalized, even though I know it's a terrible idea. In my head, I went over how to tell her, admit my shortcomings as a husband, promise to open my mind to understand her needs and try to meet them, and ask her to do the same. This morning, I'm still miserable, but probably not going to bring it up to her because I suspect it wouldn't do anything.

I am struggling, though, with something. Communication is key to a good marriage, yet I probably shouldn't communicate the above thoughts. It seems counter intuitive.

I'm just rambling, I guess....


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Hey man! Sorry to hear the turn in your sitch.

Lean into the pain. Give yourself 24 hours to do it. Be miserable. Plan something fun for the next day and pick yourself up. Be proactive about your pain and you'll get through it.

yes, no point in communicating to the W and making a last stand. It's not going to go over well, you already know it.


No one is coming to save you!

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Originally Posted By: Maika
no point in communicating to the W and making a last stand. It's not going to go over well, you already know it.


I know. And I will just keep my mouth shut.

thanks for reminding me.


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Jim....TBH I thought about doing the same thing with my EW. One last stand, one last plea, one last are you sure, yada, yada, yada but in then in opted not to.

I just kept reminding myself to hold the line, she started this and she can end it. I reminded myself that I won't chase her, I won't pursue her and if this is what she wants then I will give it to her.

For me, letting her go, was my ultimate gift of love.

Hold the line.


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Jim, sorry brother. I know this is not where you want to be. Remember Andy Dufresne from Shawshank Redemption? Dude had to crawl through 500 yards of the foulest smelling substances to get to where he wants to be.

View the D process as the journey, NOT THE DESTINATION! D may be your sewer pipe that gets you to where you eventually want to be.


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Originally Posted By: Joseph9
letting her go, was my ultimate gift of love.


Boy it's hard to see it that way, but I know what you mean.



Thanks, Steve.


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Originally Posted By: Jim1234
Originally Posted By: Joseph9
letting her go, was my ultimate gift of love.


Boy it's hard to see it that way, but I know what you mean.





You will get there and soon you will come back here and start to help others. Its just a matter of time and listening to the advice given to you, sometimes I believe this site is better than IC.


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Had a good weekend. Went down to Washington. Had a very nice time sightseeing Fri, Sat, came home Sun afternoon. Went to a neighbor's house last night for some beers around the fire pit. Very pleasant.

W has the kids. Today, the weather [censored], so I texted W and asked if she would mind if I asked them if they wanted to see Solo with me this afternoon. She replied, "No, I don't mind but only if I can go too." S18's already seen it, but D16, W and I went. I picked them up. W got in the car, and while we were waiting for D16, W said D16 wanted to go to dinner afterward. I had no plans, so said "sure."

D sat between us, and the movie was good. Found out at the end that apparently W had a brush with poison ivy and was itching like crazy during the movie. We stopped by a pharmacy on the way home so she could pick up some benadryl. Obviously, she didn't want to go to dinner, so we dropped her off, and D and I went. Very casual, but always nice spending time with D.

I'm just wondering, is this kind of weird? We're supposed to be meeting tomorrow for lunch to decide how to value our respective homes for the asset division so we can finalize the divorce on Friday, and she tells me she'd like to go to the movies with us? I'm not reading anything into it, but how many of our exes invite themselves to the movies? Just seems weird to me.

And should I have said no?


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Jim, I had seen your post and wanted to respond that the most obvious explanation is that your wife was bored and wanted to see the movie. Perhaps she feels comfortable knowing the divorce will soon be finalized so she got what she wants and she can relax now and be friendly with you. I remember you saying it's been an amicable divorce so maybe your wife still wants to socialize with you. Or perhaps she's feeling lonely and wanted a taste of having an outing with her family just like old times. It's so hard to know what goes through their minds. My husband has been horrible but then invited me to lunch with our daughter recently. No interest in reconciling or fixing things but he seemed happy for us to have lunch together. I guess as long as they're getting their way and feel in control they are happy to spend time with us? I wish I was one of those people who could read between the lines but that's not a talent of mine, although I've seen other people on this board with that skill.

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Quote:
And should I have said no?


Jim I think you do whatever is comfortable to you as long as you can do it with no emotions, no expectations and it doesn't have an impact on your children giving them the impression that mom and dad are getting back together.

I would say it does seem kind of odd but every R is different and has their nuances. My EW will invite me but she has not invited herself.

I would also say that when you start to date and get serious with another woman I highly doubt you will feel comfortable with this happening and then you will probably say "no" if she asks.


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Nicole, I wish I could read between the lines, too. It could have happened for any or all the reasons you mentioned, but I think you nailed the most likely one.... she was bored, wanted to see it, and she's comfortable around me. Who knows.


Originally Posted By: Joseph9
Quote:
And should I have said no?


Jim I think you do whatever is comfortable to you as long as you can do it with no emotions, no expectations and it doesn't have an impact on your children giving them the impression that mom and dad are getting back together.

I would say it does seem kind of odd but every R is different and has their nuances. My EW will invite me but she has not invited herself.

I would also say that when you start to date and get serious with another woman I highly doubt you will feel comfortable with this happening and then you will probably say "no" if she asks.


J9, I had no expectations, highly doubt it gives the kids the impression that we're getting back together, but part of me thinks I shouldn't be allowing her to cake-eat, you know, divorce me, but still do things as a family when convenient to her. Part of me was happy to have her come along. That's why I am curious as to whether I should have said "OK" when she asked.


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J - There have been times where I have went out to eat with my W and times that I have not. Maybe next time tell her "no" if she asks, if that is what you truly want to do. I declined dinner with my EW on Sunday because I did not want to give my girls (they are young) the wrong impression.

I think if you tell her "no" after a few times of hearing it she will probably stop asking.

Early on my DB coach told me to plan things weekly to do together as a family. IMO if you and your soon to be EW get together once a month with the kids for dinner or to go see a movie and your children get to interact with mom and dad together IMO that is a good thing. As long as it doesn't confuse them.

My guess is once you start a serious R with someone else though this won't happen.


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J9, I guess I'm not pursuing, I'm not pressuring, but I am still allowing pleasant interactions between us to happen. Leaving the light on, so to speak. I don't know if I'm rationalizing, and letting her have her cake and eat it, though, and whether that makes me less than a man a woman would be a fool to leave.


On a related topic, I'm meeting W for lunch to go over dividing our assets before we meet with the mediator on Friday, where we will hopefully come up with a negotiated settlement. We're really just going to discuss the value of her house, so it shouldn't be contentious. We'll see.


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Jim, there is nothing in DBing against pleasant interactions. The key is that you don't initiate those interactions. Let her come to you. Otherwise it is pursuit and pressure. But when she initiates, for crying out loud, BE PLEASANT!! LOL Detachments is not being mean, or ignoring, or pouting. When you are pleasant with her when she initiates interaction THAT IS THE EPITOME OF BEING A MAN A WOMAN WOULD BE A FOOL TO LEAVE.

I really think the term detachment confuses most LBSs. That is why I prefer the term differentiation, or self-differentiation. It really is about finding happiness internally, not externally. It is about not giving anyone the power over your mental well-being. That you will be happy, healthy, pleasant, upbeat, and optimistic no matter what anyone else (including your S) says or does.


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Originally Posted By: Steve85
When you are pleasant with her when she initiates interaction THAT IS THE EPITOME OF BEING A MAN A WOMAN WOULD BE A FOOL TO LEAVE.


Thanks Steve. Your post really helped put this issue into perspective. Especially the line above.


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Had lunch with W to discuss settlement. I got a little emotional on the way over, but when I got to the diner I was solid.

She sat down. We ordered. We talked for about 30 minutes over our food, about our kids, the issues they are having, what's going on in their lives. We talked for a while about her house and the problems she's having with her A/C and furnace. I tried to be supportive and just listen.

We had to discuss some things so we didn't waste time with the mediator, and I wasn't sure how long it would take, but it turned out to be only a minute's worth. She totally agreed with me about how to value her house, and the conversation moved on. We could have had the conversation via a 30 second text, but I was worried we were going to argue for an hour. I brought all sorts of supporting documents. It turned out to be a non-issue. We stayed for another hour just chatting.

Two things struck me as we were finishing up. First was that nearly all of the issues and problems we discussed were the direct result of her deciding to divorce and move out. I thought about bringing that up, but in the end figured she simply wouldn't hear it if it came from me.

The second was that we were having trouble over a few days getting together to discuss this and she suggested I could take her to lunch for her birthday tomorrow. I already had plans, so I told her so, sorry. I'm having lunch with two of our best friends. When I realized that, it kind of made me sad, but then the vindictive side of me hoped that she would ask about my plans, and I could tell her. She didn't ask, though.

Also, I just think it's strange that she asked to go to the movies on Monday, and then suggested I take her for lunch on her birthday.


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Yes all that is interesting Jim. And while it certainly seems promising, it is too early to tell if maybe she is regretting her decision. Likely she is trying to remain friendly for the kids' sakes. And that is not a bad thing either. Since it will give you opportunities to show her of the new man you are becoming.

Is she doing anything other than this meeting to move the D forward? Looks like she filed going on 2 years ago? That seems like an awfully long time. Obviously that feet dragging on the D, coupled with some of her recent behavior suggests that maybe, to steal a line from AS, she is realizing her new life isn't going to be all unicorns pooping rainbow skittles.


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Jim,

You said the divorce will be finalized soon, right? I guess you'll find out as the final papers are processed if she has any regrets because the reality of actually being divorced will surely hit your wife whereas all this time it's just been one long detailed process to get to where she wants to be. Her life doesn't sound that great from what you've said. It's not as if she has an amazing boyfriend and she's traveling around the world and living out all her dreams. It sounds like she spends a good amount of time alone.

If you and your wife spent 30 minutes talking over lunch and then another hour after settling the house issue that doesn't sound to me like two people who are about to get divorced. It sounds like two people who are on a date. I'm not sure how often you and your wife did that before you separated?

It's hard to understand the reason for this divorce. It sounds like you've changed a lot for real. If you've changed then why does she still need to divorce you? I hope she's thinking those thoughts but we have no way of reading other people's minds. Perhaps she's content to just be divorced friends, or maybe after divorce she'll finally realize what she's done. The stories about people who divorced and then got back together are alluring.

I just noticed one thing in your signature - your wife appears to be older than you. This is interesting because as a man you could probably find a younger woman in her 30's or 40's whereas your wife at almost 60 might not have so, so many opportunities to date younger men. It just seems so strange for her to let you go. There's no affair on her part. We don't even hear of a MLC. It's not just strange because of age but because you've also been loyal, worked on changing yourself, and you have kids and such a long history together. You and your wife are kind of outliers here on this forum because your reasons for getting divorced don't seem warranted. They just don't seem to be so bad that they can't be fixed in counseling or with better communication. It's just odd. Perhaps I'd have to go back to read your old threads to remember more of her reasons but it really does sound like you've changed.


I wish the whole divorce thing could just be cancelled and you and your wife could start over but I guess it's not helpful to get too optimistic about that just as the divorce is about to happen. It would be nice though to see more signs of regret on your wife's part and effort from her side to take responsibility.


Keep us posted!

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Solid observations here Nicole! I agree, the lunch sounds more like a date than a D logistics meeting. And very good point about the age thing, and the opportunities for men and women of certain ages and prospects for future relationships. In fact, another author I read (not MWD) points out that often WWs will initiate D and then cold feet for the very dynamic you point out. Men seem to move on to post-D relationships much easier than women. IN the US, women make up 50.8% of the population so that might have something to do with it too.

Regardless, Nicole is right, as the D becomes more real, that reality will be something your W has to face head on.


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Originally Posted By: Steve85
it is too early to tell if maybe she is regretting her decision. Likely she is trying to remain friendly for the kids' sakes. And that is not a bad thing either.


There was not one indication of regret on her part.
I don't think it's just remaining friendly for the kids' sakes.
We've always gotten along very well, even through the D. This whole process has been weirdly amicable.


Originally Posted By: Steve85
Is she doing anything other than this meeting to move the D forward? Looks like she filed going on 2 years ago? That seems like an awfully long time. Obviously that feet dragging on the D, coupled with some of her recent behavior suggests that maybe, to steal a line from AS, she is realizing her new life isn't going to be all unicorns pooping rainbow skittles.


She hasn't really done anything to move the D forward, besides filing for alimony because she needed the money.
I'm the one who suggested she get her lawyer to send a draft settlement proposal, and then arranged mediation, moving this process along to where we are very close to an agreement. I believe that if I left it up to her, none of that would have happened.

She's realizing her life isn't rainbows and unicorns, and it's too bad that realization didn't happen earlier. Just like I would not have suffered the introspection without her filing and moving out, I don't think she will have her own epiphany without the D being finalized.


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Great point about the self-reflection and introspection and the need for something to trigger that. I feel just like you do that BD was my trigger to get my own [censored] together. I dont know that that trigger will ever come for our Ws, or if it does, if it wont happen too late (i.e. after we have moved on.)


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Originally Posted By: Davide
Great point about the self-reflection and introspection and the need for something to trigger that. I feel just like you do that BD was my trigger to get my own [censored] together. I dont know that that trigger will ever come for our Ws, or if it does, if it wont happen too late (i.e. after we have moved on.)


Yes BD is a huge wake-up call. MWD covers this really well in her books.


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Originally Posted By: NicoleR
Jim,

You said the divorce will be finalized soon, right? I guess you'll find out as the final papers are processed if she has any regrets because the reality of actually being divorced will surely hit your wife whereas all this time it's just been one long detailed process to get to where she wants to be. Her life doesn't sound that great from what you've said. It's not as if she has an amazing boyfriend and she's traveling around the world and living out all her dreams. It sounds like she spends a good amount of time alone.


Many of our mutual friends have commented that they don't see her anymore. I don't know if she will regret the turn her life has taken or whether she will regret it. There was no indication of regret yesterday.

I'm pretty sure she still suffers from depression. I've brought this up a few times, and she vehemently disagrees, so I've stopped flogging that dead horse.


Originally Posted By: NicoleR
If you and your wife spent 30 minutes talking over lunch and then another hour after settling the house issue that doesn't sound to me like two people who are about to get divorced. It sounds like two people who are on a date. I'm not sure how often you and your wife did that before you separated?


Our D has been weirdly amicable. I don't understand it. For years, we didn't do it much because of money and the kids, and then for years, we didn't do it much because she got tired of my endless pursuit. I fully acknowledge that I pursued hard, and drove her farther away.

I just noticed one thing in your signature - your wife appears to be older than you. This is interesting because as a man you could probably find a younger woman in her 30's or 40's whereas your wife at almost 60 might not have so, so many opportunities to date younger men. It just seems so strange for her to let you go. There's no affair on her part. We don't even hear of a MLC. It's not just strange because of age but because you've also been loyal, worked on changing yourself, and you have kids and such a long history together. You and your wife are kind of outliers here on this forum because your reasons for getting divorced don't seem warranted. They just don't seem to be so bad that they can't be fixed in counseling or with better communication. It's just odd. Perhaps I'd have to go back to read your old threads to remember more of her reasons but it really does sound like you've changed.[/quote]

Yes, she's 7 years older than I. I don't think she's worried about dating. She's said repeatedly she doesn't care if she's ever in another relationship.

I do fully acknowledge that during all the years we went to counseling, I always thought the problem was her, and I basically waited for her to change. Without her filing and moving out, I would never have suffered the introspection to realize my responsibility in the failure of our marriage. If she would be willing to try counseling again, she might see that, but she isn't willing to give me another chance.

She simply doesn't want to try any more.

And I'm kind of ready to finalize the D, because I don't think she will ever accept responsibility for her part in the failure of our marriage. I think any reconciliation would just leave me disappointed. In the time since she filed, I've heard not one word or regret, apology, or contrition. Maybe that will happen when the D is final, but probably not.


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Originally Posted By: Steve85
Regardless, Nicole is right, as the D becomes more real, that reality will be something your W has to face head on.


Yup, but I doubt she will ever realize that reality is, for the most part, the result of her decision to file and move out. I don't think anyone will point it out to her, I can't tell her because she simply wouldn't hear it, and I doubt she'll figure it out on her own.


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I need some help.

We met today with a mediator. She was supposed to provide and document the amount of OUR money she spent on her house, so we could divide up the marital pie, finish the settlement agreement, and finalize this divorce. That is the last piece of the puzzle, and the only reason we didn't finish the settlement agreement when we met with the mediator two weeks ago.

Well, she's full of excuses as to why she didn't have the number. She's known she needed to come up with this number for 18 months. I can't even begin to express how frustrated, angry, and upset I am at her failure to provide it.

She has been consistent in expressing a desire to get divorced. I don't want to get divorced, but absent any indications she wants to reconcile, accept that it's time to move on. But she just won't do anything to move it forward unless I push her.

I'd like to send her an email expressing my frustration and saying basically "Why the f^%$ are you dragging your ass when you're the one who wants to get divorced?!?!?!" in the nicest possible way.

I'm really at the point where I am done waiting, and want a resolution one way or the other.


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Hey Jim I think only you can answer your question.....you don't want a D but your tired of being in limbo.

By now you should have clarity......what is it that you want?


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After thinking about it all day, on Friday night I sent her an email expressing my frustration and how upset I was. I told her that for someone wanting a divorce, she seemed to be dragging it out ad infinitum. I told her her excuses for not having the information on her house were lame. I told her I just didn't care anymore what the exact value of her house was, take her best guess and lets move forward. I told her I thought the mediation session was a complete waste of time.

I haven't heard from her since. I have no idea what that means.


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Forget what she wants. Do you want divorce?


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Jim,

Your divorce is taking forever! You have the right to be frustrated by her excuses, not to mention how expensive all these lawyer and mediator fees must be. It seems you've tried to give your wife everything she wants and you've cooperated and showed her a new side of yourself. There's also been ample time for your wife to change her mind and decide to reconcile but it sounds like she's disaffected by everything. It's great that you and she were able to go to lunch and a movie and enjoy your time together the other week but it does seem like all of that is shadowed by this endless divorce process. You've been fair to your wife and she should be fair in return. I'm not sure how the e-mail sounded to her but she's been your wife for so many years and you should be able to express your opinions especially given that you have nothing further to lose.

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Originally Posted By: Jim1234
I need some help.

She has been consistent in expressing a desire to get divorced. I don't want to get divorced, but absent any indications she wants to reconcile, accept that it's time to move on. But she just won't do anything to move it forward unless I push her.


Hi Jim, would giving her an ultimatum get you to a better place? I read somewhere you should give a WAS at least as many months as the number of years that you have been together. Giving her a strict ultimatum might make it clear to her that you are truly detached and are not ready to be in limbo anymore.

And about the value of her house, would you be able to get an appraisal on it and share the costs with her? or have her get an appraisal and set up a deadline for it. This would be more beneficial to you than her under quoting the value of the house.

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Jim,

can you hire a CPA or do the research yourself to see what marital money went into her home?

Can you take the bull by the horns and handle this yourself?

If not, then I'd seek counsel about how to move things forward NOT b/c you want a divorce

but b/c she IS dragging this out - probably b/c she benefits from the status quo.


(shrugs) Too bad it's lousy for you.

So, If she's harboring doubts about the divorce - but won't tell you she wants a recon, or move towards one, does it matter IF she has internal, doubts, that remain unexpressed? Wouldn't you need more from her to truly reconcile? (& - trust me, a meaningful reconciliation would require more from her in order to last...)

So

What is it YOU CAN control in this situation? Okay then.

Time to exercise choice, and take steps out of limbo. That may wake her up, but either way at least you won't feel so paralyzed due to someone else's choices.

It is soul sucking to have that.

Keep posting


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Originally Posted By: Steve85
Forget what she wants. Do you want divorce?

No, I don't, but I guess I'm at the point that divorce is preferable to limbo. This has taken a long time, and gone nowhere.


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Originally Posted By: NicoleR
you should be able to express your opinions especially given that you have nothing further to lose.


That's kind of what I decided. Nothing to lose.


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Originally Posted By: arsh18

Hi Jim, would giving her an ultimatum get you to a better place? I read somewhere you should give a WAS at least as many months as the number of years that you have been together. Giving her a strict ultimatum might make it clear to her that you are truly detached and are not ready to be in limbo anymore.

My issuing ultimatums was one of the problems in our marriage, so I don't think that's a good idea, but our divorce has gone on a long time. I think the email make it clear that I'm not ready to stay in limbo any more.

And about the value of her house, would you be able to get an appraisal on it and share the costs with her? or have her get an appraisal and set up a deadline for it. This would be more beneficial to you than her under quoting the value of the house.


It's really a matter of how much money WE invested in her house, so an appraisal wouldn't really matter. We both know the number within about $ 30K, and the difference is simply not important to me any longer.


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Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Jim,

can you hire a CPA or do the research yourself to see what marital money went into her home?

Can you take the bull by the horns and handle this yourself?

If not, then I'd seek counsel about how to move things forward NOT b/c you want a divorce

but b/c she IS dragging this out - probably b/c she benefits from the status quo.


(shrugs) Too bad it's lousy for you.

So, If she's harboring doubts about the divorce - but won't tell you she wants a recon, or move towards one, does it matter IF she has internal, doubts, that remain unexpressed? Wouldn't you need more from her to truly reconcile? (& - trust me, a meaningful reconciliation would require more from her in order to last...)

So

What is it YOU CAN control in this situation? Okay then.

Time to exercise choice, and take steps out of limbo. That may wake her up, but either way at least you won't feel so paralyzed due to someone else's choices.

It is soul sucking to have that.

Keep posting


You are right about all this, 25. It is soul sucking and completely leaves me at the mercy of her choices. And if she wants to reconcile, she needs to do the work, and she's shown no inclination of that.

As I mention above, it's not really a matter for CPA's, and to move it forward, if she won't come up with a number, I'll lowball it just to move the process forward.


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Originally Posted By: Jim1234

No, I don't, but I guess I'm at the point that divorce is preferable to limbo. This has taken a long time, and gone nowhere.

Seems like you have made a decision Jim, you seem have been pushed far enough. Hope you find peace however you decide to proceed

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Jim, repeating what one of our DB expert posters told me when I was complaining about limbo: limbo is the gift of time.

Everyday you are in limbo is one day you aren't divorced. And for every day that goes by that you aren't divorced there is a greater chance you will never be divorced.

Remember sandi's rule: NEVER give up.

Limbo is difficult, I agree. But what if you were on the path to R, didn't know it, got impatient and moved the D along yourself. Won't you always wonder if she would have eventually come around?

Just things to think about.


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Originally Posted By: Steve85

Everyday you are in limbo is one day you aren't divorced. And for every day that goes by that you aren't divorced there is a greater chance you will never be divorced.

I second Steve, everyday you arent divorced your children have parents vs part time mom and dad and chances of your MR holding up is higher.Why would you want the guilt of breaking your home, let your W bear that burden.

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Steve and arsh, thank you for your insights. I don't know how much longer I will wait (as you can tell, I'm pretty fed up), but I will wait a little longer because of your posts.


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Originally Posted By: Jim1234
Steve and arsh, thank you for your insights. I don't know how much longer I will wait (as you can tell, I'm pretty fed up), but I will wait a little longer because of your posts.



This is not uncommon. Usually D is finally initiated and/or moved forward by the LBS once they've had enough of the WASs activities and/or inactivity (limbo). Usually when this occurs the LBS is now ready to move on physically and emotionally, which triggers the WAS suddenly being interested in R!

Weird dynamic where it isn't until the LBS really gives up, that the WAS suddenly is interested in saving the MR, often too late.


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seems to me Jim, that at least showing how "Done" you are feeling, but before it's totally completely true,

could trigger a change in your wife. IT MAY NOT, but at least you'd have given that a shot.

Overt Patience
does not seem to be working. And you count here too. Saving the marriage is second in priority to saving yourself.

(You can't really restore a marriage and have it last, without enforcing boundaries and being true to yourself, as well. That was my mistake in reconciliation, btw.0

I did the GAL pretty wonderfully, but I always felt in the back of my mind that X would see the light. A part of me held on, too long.

I didn't realize how much I was projecting onto HIM, how I felt about marriage and family. I thought he was confused or having a "MLC", as opposed to simply revealing the truth about his priorities being HIM first, HIS career second, and so forth...when conflicts between his priorities arose, I cannot think of a time in the second half of our m, that he chose OTHER than himself. Yet I refused to see this. His actions were not totally consistent so I'd glom onto the 1/5 of his behavior that wasn't lousy, and feel a sense of affirmation that indeed he was coming around...so I more or less skimmed over the 4/5 of his behavior that was unloving or selfish.

Truth be told, our spouses often see and value things VERY differently than we hoped.

Hence the phrase, "Actions speak MUCH LOUDER than words".


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25, I've been thinking about what you've written for a few days, and I see what you're saying. I'm trying to reconcile Steve's comment about the gift of time with overt patience not really doing me any good. Because of travelling for work I won't have any time to meet with W and mediator anyway, so I guess I've decided to give her another two weeks or so before addressing it more directly.

The good news is that S18 is graduating today! We're going for an early dinner with D16, my parents, and I thought about it and asked W to join us. So, after tonight, per the state, he is emancipated and I no longer have to pay child support for him.

Also, next month the small arrearage that built up between her moving out and being awarded APL and C/S will be paid off, so I'm about to get $1000/month raise!

TBH, that's also part of my desire to move forward with the D. I want to get it over and done with before she realizes how big this change is and panics.


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Jim, just remember that 2 weeks in these sitches is about a second compared to a day. It is a very small amount of time. So I would caution against timetables, and just encourage you to set times to reevaluate how you feel. Give yourself these 2 weeks and then see what you feel like and if you feel you can continue on DBing, or if you'd rather just end things.

LBS are notorious for setting timetables and not living up to it. And yes I know I set a year limit on my sitch but that was more of a suggested goal by another anti-D writer's (not MWD) private consultation advice.


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Steve,

I always thought your signature block was an odd declaration for a guy on this site because in it, you say you "will file" not that you "might" or "IF"... (just saying)

Jim, no one can handle limbo, indefinitely AND be at peace. There is power in inertia, but it's not a good one.

I understand your need for an internal timeline and I think it's a smart idea as long as you don't see it as a promise or contractual deal you MUST follow up on.

But know why you are following thru - OR not. Are you not following thru b/c you are just being stuck - or you are too fearful to act

OR

if you choose to file, are you acting out of anger and frustration?

Figure this^^ out and see where it leads you. Did you say you have a T?

I cannot imagine going thru this ordeal, without a solid T to bounce ideas off of and to help you stay on your path. That path is guided by a healthy outlook on your end, and a moral compass of your choosing.

((( )))


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Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

You can't really restore a marriage and have it last, without enforcing boundaries and being true to yourself, as well.


This is so well put, to restore a lasting MR should be our aim not just get our WAS back. But as time goes most of us start realizing things will never be the same as before, how we make it better really depends on the couple involved and situations I would think.

Jim, I get limbo feels like eternity but in the grand scheme of things this phase someday may look like just a bump on your smooth life path, hang in there, nothing including the limbo can last forever.

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I think my D will be finalized shortly. I saw W today. I didn't mention the D, but she volunteered that she'll accept the number I suggested a few weeks ago (basically because she can't do the work to come up with the exact number), and asked if I would let the mediator know. I've already done that, and now it looks like we will just have to meet with the mediator to sign the agreement, and then stop by court to finalize it.

I'm not sure how I feel about it... Logically, I'm good. Emotionally, not as much. Not devastated, but not happy.


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Hey Jim, I can tell you I felt the same way. I knew that I would be good, far from good but I still felt the emotions. The sadness, the questions still lingering in the back of my head, I just wanted to shake her and tell her to wake up.

BD was far worse than standing in front of the judge and meeting with L but it was emotionally exhausting.

Just remember you don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you. Life is short and you deserve to find happiness. I try to tell myself this every time I start to feel weak and emotional. We just have to keep moving forward.


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Jim, I had meant to ask if your wife had ever responded to that e-mail you sent? I guess not. It sounds like she hasn't had a change of heart which is really too bad. If you and your wife are good enough to sit together at a restaurant and talk for an hour and go to a movie together it just doesn't seem like divorce is necessary. But I guess your wife would have to signal she wants that and you've done everything possible to demonstrate that you've changed and you'd be open to reconciling. Maybe yours will be one of the rare cases where your wife comes to try again after divorce. The risk she's taking is that you may no longer be available or interested at that point. It's hard to give up hope completely. You never know what might happen someday. For now it's just very sad. You've had a long time to prepare for the actual divorce but that doesn't make emotion-free. Surely you and even your wife will have mixed emotions. I hope it goes as well as can be expected. Keep us posted.

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J9, I want to shake her and tell her to wake up, too, but know it won't do any good. I'll just keep trying to move forward. You've done a good job of lighting the way, and I appreciate that.

Nicole, this was the only response I got. I don't know if it was in response to the email I sent, or what she needed to do from our last mediation session. I guess it doesn't really matter.

Anyway, I'm just trying to take it day by day. Between our work/vacation schedules, it will be a while before we sit down with the mediator again.


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Originally Posted By: Jim1234
and asked if I would let the mediator know. I've already done that


So Jim is the D something you want? I am always confused by LBSs that don't want D that do their WASs D work. Why couldn't she contact the mediator and let them know? Have you always done her work for her? Are you a rescuer? Are you only doing it because you think being D will be less painful than limbo?


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Quote:
I'll just keep trying to move forward. You've done a good job of lighting the way, and I appreciate that.


That's really all you can do. It does get better with time but I would lying if I didn't tell you that I still have my moments.

My EW just got her boob job done today and is lying in a hospital bed hurting with a close family friend by her side. It does hurt a little that I am not there but it's no longer my role (just my initial reaction). It is what it is and I just have to keep moving forward. It helps me to remember that she got those done for someone else, they are not for me so when I think about it that way it just helps me move further down the path.

Every now and then I remind myself about what I don't like about my EW, I do this especially when I start to feel weak.


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It's been a while since I've posted, mostly since not much has gone on. With the mediator having all the information, it's really just a matter of finding time when we can get together, read the separation agreement over, and sign it. With our schedules, that may take a little time. I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

W needs money to pay some contractors, so, with the separation agreement pending, I agreed she could liquidate some of our mutual funds. (thanks Steve for reminding me that I don't have to do it for her! She asked me to, but I made her.)

Her mother, sister, and cousin are coming from overseas for a visit next week. W turned 60 recently, and is throwing herself a birthday party. She invited me; I happened to have my work schedule right in front of me, and could let her know right then that I wouldn't be able to attend. She mentioned she was going to invite my family, too, and wasn't sure if any would come. I didn't comment, but I suspect no one will, except possibly my sister in law. I have thrown her great, lavish, surprise parties on the big ones that were very well attended. The vindictive side of me hopes no one shows up to this one.

I like her family, and hope to see them. I don't want to manipulate them into helping me, but OTOH I hope her mother will talk to her and help her see the light. Not holding my breath.

She's finally getting around to doing things around her house, like unpacking boxes and painting. I'm pretty sure it's because she doesn't want her mom to see the state she's been living in. That doesn't help me, because her mom will think she's been living normally for the last year, and so won't push her to get help for depression.

Originally Posted By: Joseph9

Every now and then I remind myself about what I don't like about my EW, I do this especially when I start to feel weak.


I was watching a TED talk about two weeks ago, and it suggested the same thing. I don't know if it's helping, but at least it's something I can actively do, rather than just sitting there feeling sorry for myself.


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Hey Jim - There is also some stuff out there that talks about the fantasy of your ex as well. That could be beneficial also.


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Jim, now I see your update. Interesting that your wife has family overseas. Was she born overseas? You may not want to share and it may not matter but I wonder if where she comes from has any impact on how she handles problems and whether it made any difference in her decision to file for divorce. I hope you will continue to make it through this and find someone new if your wife doesn't come around. This stage of waiting and being alone isn't fun in any way.

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Originally Posted By: Joseph9
Hey Jim - There is also some stuff out there that talks about the fantasy of your ex as well. That could be beneficial also.


I'll look them up. Thanks!

Originally Posted By: NicoleR
Jim, now I see your update. Interesting that your wife has family overseas. Was she born overseas? You may not want to share and it may not matter but I wonder if where she comes from has any impact on how she handles problems and whether it made any difference in her decision to file for divorce. I hope you will continue to make it through this and find someone new if your wife doesn't come around. This stage of waiting and being alone isn't fun in any way.


She's from England, so there isn't the same cultural difference as in your sitch.

In many ways this time [censored], but I've tried to make the most of it. I go out a lot more, with friends and with dates, to ballgames, movies, dinners, lunches, concerts..... I've started playing competitive volleyball again, a lot more golf, going to museums, travelling.... it's not all bad.


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Maybe I'm starting to get some distance after all.

I saw W last night at D16's swim meet. I was selling 50/50 raffle tickets, and kept walking by her. We'd talk a little bit when I'd walk by about D16 and her mom, who just had a car accident.

At the end of the meet, she surprised me by asking when we were going to meet with the mediator to finalize the separation agreement. That's the first time she's shown any inclination to move the mediation forward. I felt strangely dispassionate about it.

I'm not saying "I am over my W" by any means, but I do feel like maybe I'm finally moving down that path.


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J - I know when my EW told me she was ready to move forward with D I initially felt that pit in my stomach but after a couple of days it felt like the clouds parted and the sun was shining. I don't know if you are ever ready but their is some relief especially if you have been in limbo for a long period of time such as ourselves.


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Originally Posted by Joseph9
J - I know when my EW told me she was ready to move forward with D I initially felt that pit in my stomach but after a couple of days it felt like the clouds parted and the sun was shining. I don't know if you are ever ready but their is some relief especially if you have been in limbo for a long period of time such as ourselves.


The clouds haven't parted quite yet, but the forecast is good. I'm certainly better than I was a year ago, and now I can at least see the possibility of better days ahead.



There have been some strange goings on around here, and I was hoping for some thoughts from the community.....

My kids and I were on vacation at my parents' cabin. They came home a day or two before me. When I came home, my bed was not the same as I left it.... It's an adjustable bed, and the foot was raised slightly, the things that I decided not to take with me were still on the bed, but not quiiiiiite in the same place as where I left them, and the comforter was sideways.

I don't have a TV in my room anymore, so no one would be climbing into my bed to watch. Initially I thought, "WTF???? Is one of the kids (16 and 18) having sex in my bed?????" I texted W about it. She replied saying she talked to the kids and they don't know anything about it. Of course they would, so that went nowhere.

But when I pulled the covers back that night, an expensive family ring given to W and since returned by her was squarely in the center of the bed. She loved that ring. Someone had to rummage through my room to find it.

A few days later, I discovered a large egress window in our basement had been left wide open, for at least a week.

A few days later, I came home after being away overnight to find the desktop computer, that isn't used anymore, was on. Whoever had turned it on also shut it down, but they walked away before they realized the process hung up on open programs and it never shut down. The program left open was the address book that she had asked me if she could come over and copy. I said she could do it any time she wanted, but here was obvious proof that she came over when I was out and did it without asking, very sneakily.

Now I'm thinking the bed thing wasn't the kids at all, especially with the ring in the middle of the bed. But WTF????

I saw her Thursday at a swim meet. She sat with me the whole time, and it was nice, but I didn't mention any of this, and neither did she. I'm not obsessing over this, but I just think it's bizarre.

Any thoughts?


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Jim... It was a ghost. Your house is haunted. Call a priest immediately...

Just kidding. That is very strange though. At this point, I would just ask her if she was responsible for any of it. Is she in need of money? It could be that she rummaged through your stuff and found the ring. Then wanted to look under the matress (common hiding place for cash). Left the ring on the bed when she was putting everything back together and forgot about it. I don't know. I'm just spitballing here. Also, my W is a broke drug addict, so I guess this is how I would see things play out in my sitch...


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Jim, get a home security cam and hook it up. At least you can rule out the ghost theory or confirm it, lol. But going thru your stuff is not OK, and doing so without you knowing about it is invading your privacy, she will I think deny it if you ask her. But is she the kind that would enter and leave by the basement window?

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Jim, I had meant to respond to this. I don't understand it. Why would your wife need to break into your house? If you offered for her to take that address book I don't see why she'd need to climb through a window in the basement to get it....or lay in your bed! Where does the divorce currently stand? I wonder what she's thinking about that made her do this. That doesn't seem like something a mentally healthy person would do. Plus you don't know what else she was spying on or trying to find. I'm sure she won't steal from you or do anything like that, but still, that doesn't make sense. I did enter our house one time and took a quick look around in January but I used the key and I didn't lay in the bed or search through my husband's stuff. Perhaps it's best just to leave it be, but maybe a window lock isn't a bad idea!

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Arsh, MTB, and Nicole, I have no idea what happened. I'm not even sure it was W. I think you are all as mystified as I am. I doubt she came in through the window (she's no longer limber enough), and she knows where the key is. But why would the ring be in the bed??????

Got back last night from college orientation with S18. W drove us to the airport and then home. The drives were pleasant, and much like old times.

Today is a bad one, though. I got an email regarding paperwork for college, and on it was W's address as S18's home. I don't know why, but that hit me kind of hard.

Then W sent me a text letting me know some friends were getting together at a pub tonight. I'm not reading anything in to it, but I admit I'm confused.

I don't really know whether I should go, and remind her of how much we enjoyed each other's company, or not go, making her wonder what else I had going on, and let her know I'm not just sitting around pining away for her.

Oh, Nicole, when W asked me to schedule another mediation session, we never heard back from the mediator. I just sent her another email and she wrote back immediately that I should call her to schedule. I think this should be the final mediation session, and we should have a separation agreement at the end of it. Part of me says to finish this and move on, and part says to give her "just a little more time."


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the first time we could get together with the mediator is July 31st. I expect a divorce settlement then.

Other than that, nothing has happened. I did bump into her in the grocery store today; she was frazzled from picking her mom up at the airport. I basically said "Boy it sounds like it was rough," and then she had to shop.


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Sorry Jim, I know you have been in limbo for long but the finality of it all hurts. How are you holding up?
Sometimes all the WAS reasons seem silly, I wish there was a metal stability test before anybody was granted a divorce - Arshi

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Jim, what happens after the divorce settlement? You mail the papers and wait for the divorce to come in the mail? I know in some states you don't need to go to court. I hope this comes and goes quickly. Aside from getting those papers signed, it sounds like nothing else will change. You and your wife will still interact probably just the same unless she has a sudden change of heart - did you read PsySara's update?

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Arsh, I have ups and downs. Limbo [censored], but I keep reminding myself it's a marathon, not a sprint. At the same time, I'm trying to move forward in various ways. I've started dating someone, but wanting to R with W is definitively a complicating factor! As time goes, though, I desire R less and less, so I guess that's progress. I totally understand about your desire for a mental stability test!

Nicole, I'll read PsySara's update next. As to what happens after the settlement agreement, I don't really know. I think I will drop them off at the lawyers, have him schedule a date in front of the judge, and it's over. That may take a little while because I think the courts here are backed up. But I think you're right. Nothing will change.

Something unusual happened last week that I wanted to ask the group about.... S18 is no longer a dependant and I no longer have to pay child support for him. So an amended alimony/child support order showed up in the mail, showing my child support actually INCREASED by $4. I've been busy travelling, so I haven't talked to the lawyer, but isn't this backward?

Yesterday S18 stopped by and we had a talk. W hit a milestone birthday and is throwing herself a party. Her mom, cousin, and sister flew in for the party and to visit. Apparently her house is in turmoil because mom and cousin are disgusted by the state of her house, taking charge, and making W, S18 and D16 clean ("This place is disgusting! I can't believe you live like this!"). S18 is upset, because he's fairly clean, and getting the backlash of mom's and sister's slovenliness.

For those unfamiliar with my sitch, W has issues, one of which is not cleaning up after herself, and she won't really make the kids clean up after themselves, either. I travel extensively, and for years, killed myself cleaning up after everyone for the three days I was home, then I'd leave on a trip, come home to a house that looked like a bomb dropped on it, clean in a frenzy for three days, leave, and repeat. Finally, after years and years of this, I just gave up, and carved out a small clean niche for myself. When she would come to visit, MIL would see me not cleaning up, and blame me for the state of our house.

I like and have great respect for her mother, and value her good opinion of me. Maybe I shouldn't, but I do.

Anyway, my house is tidy and clean, her house is a shithole, and her mother is seeing how her daughter lives, without being able to blame me. Maybe I shouldn't, but I feel a certain amount of satisfaction.


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Jim, Does your child support just become voluntary now so you'll continue to pay it informally? I always wonder how this works. I'm not in that situation myself but I guess you won't know if that letter was a mistake until you ask or get it cancelled.

That's great your mother-in-law sees how your wife lives on her own. I'm surprised your wife didn't clean more before her mom came. It's good that your MIL now knows it wasn't you! It's interesting how cleaning works in every family. That sounds tiring for you to do it after traveling. It's strange that you put up with it all those years and yet your wife is the one to leave you.

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Nicole,

I'm trying not to feel too self-satisfied, but it's hard! I took MIL, sister in law, and cousin in law out for lunch today. I get along with all three and wanted to see them. Had an enjoyable time. Afterward, SIL wanted to see our house, since she never has, so I gave them the nickel tour. It was nice for them, and especially MIL, to see the contrast in how we live. SIL even asked if I had a maid, and was VERY impressed when I said no. (And W's been cleaning for three weeks in preparation for them coming. It just shows how very bad it was.)

BTW, I was doing all the cleaning because WAW's physical ailments prevented her from doing it (she was bedridden for much of 8 years), and when she became physically able, she was suicidally depressed and couldn't get it together then, either. So, I did what I had to do. My friends can't believe after all that, she was the one to leave, either.

As far as child support, I have no intention of paying any more than the court demands. I am not paying anything voluntarily. I am happy to care for my kids, but I'm not paying W any more than required. In my state, child support ends when the child turns 18 AND graduates from high school. I was expecting SOME reduction in child support, and was surprised when it increased. I'll take it up with my lawyer next week. I do know that in most cases in my state, when child support ends, alimony increases some because W would be entitled to some of my income that is no longer required to support my underage children, but that's not what happened here.


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It's been a while ,so I thought I'd post an update.

We had a mediation session this week, and agreed how we would split our assets. Like everything else we do, it was pretty amicable. The mediator will write it all up, and send us a settlement agreement. Assuming the mediator figures it all correctly, we just have to give it to our lawyers and have them file it with the court, and voila, we're done.

I can't say I'm upset. It was all very businesslike. That doesn't mean I'm happy about it. I still love her and want to R. But I keep reminding myself that she wasn't a very good wife, doesn't recognize that fact, isn't sorry about it, and has no desire to change that. It makes it a little easier.


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Jim, sounds like things are proceeding as expected. What ever happened to the child support issue?

It's interesting that you recognize your wife wasn't a very good wife. It is kind of amazing to hear that she was bedridden for so many years, depressed, didn't clean much, and now after separating she didn't respond to all of your positive changes, yet you'd still be open to reconciling. It's hard to imagine there are men who love their wife that much because I was a pretty good wife and my husband left me without hesitation. I still hope your wife comes to her senses someday. It is possible for someone to suddenly wake up or realize what they've done or how they've been. It could happen after they have a certain dream, or after another significant event in their life, or when they hit their lowest point. Anything could still happen but it seems you're coping fairly well given what a long marriage you had and how hard it must be to separate after everything you and your wife have been through together. I hope you're able to keep moving forward imagining what a good wife would be like and hopefully finding one someday!

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Nicole, I haven't talked to the lawyer about child support; I figured I'd just go in when the settlement agreement was done, and discuss it all at once.

I am not really trying to understand her anymore. Maybe that's a first step toward detachment. Having been through so much difficulty together does make it difficult; I'm sure you can relate. I'm trying to move forward, though. "Fake it 'till you make it!"


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Jim, I hope the settlement really settles everything.

I wonder how your wife will feel someday when you find a new wife? You sound like you've done a lot of reflection and would be an excellent husband. I wrote about how I think my husband would react if I was in a new relationship - I bet your wife will think twice about her actions someday when she sees you happy with someone else, but then it'll be too late for her.

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I am sorry Jim, I understand its mixed feelings, glad its over but very sad that it is all over. But who knows what the future holds right, life is long for all of us to reassess how we feel towards sitches and people. I do sense detachment in your thread that is healthy, I pray that you find happiness from within. Good luck

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Well, we're pretty close to reaching a settlement agreement. We agree in principal, and even mostly on the numbers. There were some tax considerations the mediator didn't include in the numbers. I brought it up, and W agreed with everything I said. The mediator asked if I would adjust the numbers to reflect the tax considerations, and I said sure. Not quite sure what I'm paying her for, but at least this way, I get to make sure the numbers are right.

We're supposed to be taking S18 to college in two weeks. 12 hour drive each way, with at least one hotel stay. I am kind of dreading it. Yes, it will give us a chance to talk, but what are we going to talk about? I doubt she has had an epiphany, and, short of that, nothing in our sitch has changed.

The good news is that I am beginning to detach, finally. When I find myself pining for her, I remember all the ways she wasn't really a good wife, and it helps.


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some journalling....

I got the financial part of the settlement done, emailed it to WAW and mediator a week ago, and haven't heard anything from either of them. I spoke to WAW last night, after we returned from an exhausting trip to drop S18 off at college, to ask if she actually received it. She said she, but didn't understand spreadsheets, and couldn't make heads or tails of it. She started to get upset, thinking I was demanding a response, but I quickly calmed her down by saying she could take all the time she wanted to look at it. I just wanted to know if she received it. I offered to explain it in nauseating detail whenever she wanted. She was fine after that, and said she'd take another look at it and get back to me.

We decided to travel with S18 to college. 11.5 hour drive each way. Left Monday, got back yesterday. I was dreading it, but determined to bring no drama to the occasion. Apparently, WAW felt the same way, and it was a really nice trip. I wondered what we were going to talk about on the way home, but it was actually very pleasant. We got a suite the first night, and S18 and I slept in one room and she slept in another. On the way home, we got two rooms. I paid the lion's share, but she contributed significantly.

I was determined not to pursue, bring up reconciliation, or discuss the divorce, and didn't. She didn't either, and I enjoyed the trip. I'm sure she did, too. While she was napping, though, I couldn't help but think "If we still get along this well, WTF are we getting divorced for?"

It was a bit of a setback, in that for the last month, I've been better with distancing, and remembering all the ways she wasn't a good wife, and didn't even try to meet my needs. While she was napping, I thought about bringing up reconciliation, but in the end, decided there wasn't any point.

I'm not sure where we're going to go from here, but I suspect it's one more mediation session where we go over the financial settlement line by line, sign off on it, and then hand it to the lawyers to schedule the rubber stamp by the court.


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Jim,

I read your update and this is the part where I get a confused. When you talk about the nice time that you and your wife had and how slowly the divorce has progressed it just seems like this is all so unnecessary. Have you sought the advice of a relationship expert or counselor to ask if your approach is what they recommend? Do you think you made it too easy on your wife by keeping the relationship amicable and letting her feel that she can have the best of both worlds? A friendship with you and spending time together while getting to live on her own being divorced? What if you made one final push towards reconciliation and fought to keep the marriage? What if you showed her a strong, confident man who believes strongly in salvaging the life you two built together? What if you sweep her off her feet to a romantic getaway and pursue her like you did back when you first met? I'm not proposing you do those things but just asking whether you've gotten a second opinion from an expert or someone from a different school of thought? I feel when you get to this point you have nothing to lose but I guess at the end-of-the-day if you've tried everything and your spouse still doesn't want to be with you then all you can do is accept the new state of affairs and go through with the divorce.

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Nicole, I don't pretend to understand her. I freely admit that I would not have suffered the introspection to understand my part in the failure of our marriage, but it just seems like too little too late. She has told me that. I think you might be right about having made things too easy for her.

As far as different approaches, I tried a number of them between DB and her moving out, and none of them went anywhere. Then I found this the books, and this site, and recognized a lot of those behaviors as pursuing, so I stopped. As far as being too nice to her, someone on one of my earlier threads reminded me that the ultimate goal was to reconcile, and being nice seemed to be a better way to do that than being antagonistic. I'm sure that means I've let her do some cake eating, but that line just seems fuzzy to me, so I've let some things go, which is also a 180 for me. Maybe I'm rationalizing.... I don't know.

I think we're very close to having a finalized settlement agreement, and I am thinking of suggesting that, if she has any interest in working to put our marriage back together, we attend one joint counseling session. But unless she is willing to do her share, I am not really interested. And yes, that's a huge step for me.


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Originally Posted by Jim1234
While she was napping, though, I couldn't help but think "If we still get along this well, WTF are we getting divorced for?"


Yeah I thought that sooooo many times and still think it even now. Even after all these years I'm still kind of astonished that we're D'd. We got along really well right up to BD and really didn't get along badly at all even during S and D. And after all of that we settled back into a friendly R. I don't know what she thought she would find outside the M, but according to my girls she's still struggling with sadness and depression. Honestly I think that's as much of an answer we're ever going to get- they are unhappy and they're not sure why, but they're hoping if they ditch us it'll get better.


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Honestly I think that's as much of an answer we're ever going to get- they are unhappy and they're not sure why, but they're hoping if they ditch us it'll get better.


Amen. I think this is exactly right. Of course that's not to say I couldn't have been better in some ways. It's a shame that I didn't embrace that until too late, though.


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Originally Posted by Jim1234

I think we're very close to having a finalized settlement agreement, and I am thinking of suggesting that, if she has any interest in working to put our marriage back together, we attend one joint counseling session. But unless she is willing to do her share, I am not really interested. And yes, that's a huge step for me.


i hear you Jim, seems all the love and the beautiful family we had lost for nothing. It is worth a try, nothing hurts at this time by asking her I suppose. Do you see changes in her, do you feel she has introspected and is able to own her share in the decline of the MR?

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Arshi, if I'm honest, I think she is happier without me. In retrospect, the pressure I put on her by pursuing her was pretty insane, and she doesn't have to deal with that anymore. Because of that, I don't think she has introspected or cares about her share in the decline of the MR.

I'm about to propose a financial settlement that I think we will both think is fair. I will suggest one more counselling session, but doubt she will be interested. And the nice thing is that I'm not really all that bothered by that any more.


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You know Jim she might just be so unhappy with herself that she can't deal with the pressure of trying to hold and work on a marriage and all that comes with it. It just might be too much for her and the responsibilities that come with it with tending to your needs.

Think about it.


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Originally Posted by Joseph9
You know Jim she might just be so unhappy with herself that she can't deal with the pressure of trying to hold and work on a marriage and all that comes with it. It just might be too much for her and the responsibilities that come with it with tending to your needs.

Think about it.


This sounds like my W as well, and I think you're right. Maybe not necessarily just unhappy with herself, but the pressure and work needed to fix the M. I just don't understand the thinking that working to save a M is harder than going through a D, starting over, living alone, etc, etc.


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If someone is that unhappy with themselves and they don't want any responsibility to tend to their husbands emotional and sexual needs then I could see it making sense. Throw kids in the mix and the pressure of being a full time parent could really be too much especially if the individual is selfish and really only cares about themselves.


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Jim, just out of curiosity, what was the original reason your wife gave for wanting a divorce? I remember she put a lot of blame on you but you've changed and surely she's seen those changes. Perhaps someday she'll see that you truly changed and it'll inspire her to change as well. Too bad none of these spouses see these things within our time frames or the divorce time frame. Untreated depression can affect people in ways that we must not be able to understand as well. Sometimes I feel she wants you to rescue her and say "I'm not going to let you do this. I'm going to take care of you and get you well…." but how can anyone know if that's what she's thinking? It seems you're doing the right thing by letting the divorce go through but staying pleasant and approachable in case she wants to signal that she's having second thoughts.

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Well, I'm hoping the last year and a half apart may have given her a different perspective, and maybe she'll be open to seeing a counsellor together. If I'm being honest, she did work to save the marriage, for years. I think a large part of the problem was that I thought I was the greatest husband on the planet, so why should I change? So, we went to counselling, and I kept waiting for her to change. Eventually, she just didn't see the point, and gave up. Of course, it isn't that simple.... there were other factors like depression, but where I used to blame the divorce on depression, this board and time have helped me gain another perspective.

We are seeing the mediator, for I hope the final time today, to go over my financial proposal. If she accepts it, then I think we're done. I admit, I'm torn about whether to ask if she is willing to see a counsellor. I worry it's more pursuit, and that I'm not fully detached. If she declines, I'll be ok. The months have helped me realize she wasn't really a great wife, and I'm ok with moving on. I just couldn't live with myself if I didn't feel like I tried, all the way to the end, to prevent this.


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We saw the mediator, and I think we have all the issues worked out, including the financial ones. Of course, the draft she provides translating our agreements into a legal document has to be right, but I'm optimistic that we're done.

At the end of our session, I told W much of what I said in my last post..... I thought I was the greatest husband, about waiting for her to change... and some other stuff. I told her I thought we should get divorced, and asked if we could leave all our baggage behind, and go to one last counseling session to see if we could work on a new improved relationship. I had it written down so I wouldn't screw it up, and afterward she didn't give me an answer, but did ask for the paper it was written on. I don't know what that means.

Anyway, right now I feel great! I've done everything I can to keep my honor and marriage intact. I've treated her fairly and respectfully throughout. And I've gained enough distance that if she doesn't want to give it one more try, I don't really care. And if she does, great, but I won't take her back unconditionally; she will have to commit, and work, to meet my needs, too.


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Jim, I'm glad to hear your made it through the last session and feel good about doing everything you can do! It's really great that you found the ability to make the divorce process so collaborative and that you kept the door open for her to return. Have you heard from her regarding the counseling appointment? I hope you're doing well in the meantime. It's been helpful to see how divorce through a mediator works by the way.

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No Nicole, I haven't heard anything from WAW. I hadn't really expected to, and that's OK.

I can't say how disappointed I am in the mediator. What an ineffectual waste of time. I just got a letter from her saying basically, "sorry, I can't figure out your financial assets. Please figure it out and let me know what you decide." The very first mediation session I handed her a summary of our assets as of both the date of separation, and the current date. 6 sessions and $1500 later, she's asking for the exact same information all over again. AAAAAARGH. It doesn't really matter, though. I can put it all down on paper in about 2 minutes and get W to sign off on it and get this back on track, but the wasted time and money chafes.

In other news, I haven't made a secret of the fact that I'm dating, either on this board, or with W. I've been seeing one woman for a little while. We just got back from 2 days away, visiting the Air Force museum. If you're into aviation, it was awesome, but it was nice to get away, nice to spend some time with some company of the opposite sex, but at the end, I was glad to get home. Maybe just a little too much time together.


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Just a quick update. Nothing much going on. We're still amicably trying to figure out the division of assets. I think the mediator is pretty worthless in this, and I suspect eventually we'll just sit down together in a library and figure it out on our own.


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Jim, you and your wife must be very detail-oriented people. It seems you two have been working on this for so long. Too bad the mediator can't help. I guess they put in a certain number of hours and then decide that's all they can do. I hope you'll soon make progress. I'm curious to hear more about the woman you're dating. Is she also divorced? Did you ever tell her that you'd be open to taking your wife back if your wife changes her mind before the divorce is over? Is your new girlfriend someone who you'd be open to marrying someday?

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Originally Posted by Jim1234
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Honestly I think that's as much of an answer we're ever going to get- they are unhappy and they're not sure why, but they're hoping if they ditch us it'll get better.


Amen. I think this is exactly right. Of course that's not to say I couldn't have been better in some ways. It's a shame that I didn't embrace that until too late, though.


Absolutely, we all could have done better. But were we so terrible that it warranted BD rather than sitting down trying to resolve whatever issues the WAS had with us? If the posts here are any indication, the vast majority of LBS's that find themselves here on these forums are warm, caring, sensitive people. They are heartbroken at the loss of their spouse and would do just about anything to get them back. They are loyal, loving, caring people almost without exception, which is why they (we) come here in the first place. Does that sound like a crappy spouse? Hardly, it sounds like EXACTLY who I would want to be married to! I'm convinced BD and the aftermath has a lot more to do with the WAS and their own internal problems than it does the LBS.

Good luck getting the D worked out, sounds like you are handling it well!


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Originally Posted by NicoleR
Jim, you and your wife must be very detail-oriented people. It seems you two have been working on this for so long. Too bad the mediator can't help. I guess they put in a certain number of hours and then decide that's all they can do. I hope you'll soon make progress. I'm curious to hear more about the woman you're dating. Is she also divorced? Did you ever tell her that you'd be open to taking your wife back if your wife changes her mind before the divorce is over? Is your new girlfriend someone who you'd be open to marrying someday?


I am too detail oriented. I want everything split 50/50 down to the penny, because that's the "right" way to do it. That's just who I am. I did have an epiphany recently, and now, really just don't care. The estate is large enough that being off by a significant amount just doesn't matter anymore. It would be off my maybe 1 %, and I can live with that.
Unfortunately, If I had had that insight 5 months ago, we'd be done by now.

This woman is also getting divorced. Hers has dragged on for over 4 years. She's been a good source of insight and suggestions, and has asked some really hard questions that make me think about my part in the failure of my R, and the limits of my part, too. And at this point, unless W expresses a great desire to make significant changes, I'm not willing to take her back. As far as marrying her, lets just say both of our emotional walls are really high. We enjoy each other's company, but it's too soon for me to think about this.


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Originally Posted by Jim1234
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Honestly I think that's as much of an answer we're ever going to get- they are unhappy and they're not sure why, but they're hoping if they ditch us it'll get better.


Amen. I think this is exactly right. Of course that's not to say I couldn't have been better in some ways. It's a shame that I didn't embrace that until too late, though.


Absolutely, we all could have done better. But were we so terrible that it warranted BD rather than sitting down trying to resolve whatever issues the WAS had with us? If the posts here are any indication, the vast majority of LBS's that find themselves here on these forums are warm, caring, sensitive people. They are heartbroken at the loss of their spouse and would do just about anything to get them back. They are loyal, loving, caring people almost without exception, which is why they (we) come here in the first place. Does that sound like a crappy spouse? Hardly, it sounds like EXACTLY who I would want to be married to! I'm convinced BD and the aftermath has a lot more to do with the WAS and their own internal problems than it does the LBS.

Good luck getting the D worked out, sounds like you are handling it well!


AS, I think statements like this are why you are so highly regarded on this forum. Thank you for the reminder.


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