Affair discovered

[rminer]

I'm sorry you are here, but you will be getting a lot of good advice from some great people, so listen and apply.

I know what you are talking about when you say how bad your W's actions are hurting you. When my W started her A she started spending money on new clothes to impress the OM. Knife to the heart. She removed her wedding rings. Another knife to the heart. She took down everything in the house that reminded her she was M to me, right down to the crystal clocks we received as a wedding gift. A third knife to the heart.

Everything she does regarding the A will hurt. The only way I have found to deal with it is to not think about it as much as possible.

When I discovered my W's A on Christmas Day last year, I started doing much of what you are right now and it didn't make me feel any better. I snooped. A lot. I looked at her planner, email, call logs, text logs. Anything I could to keep track of her contact with the OM. It only made me feel worse. I didn't start to really deal with the issues until I STOPPED snooping.

Believe me, I know it is difficult not snoop, but it is for your own good. Tracking her will only keep the sitch in the front of your mind and not allow you to focus on the rest of your life. Your Master's Thesis will be tough enough. Obsessing about your W will make it nearly impossible. I don't know if I could have done mine while thinking about my W's A.

Do yourself a favor and listen to your therapist. Only then will you be able to step back, get a clear picture of your sitch and figure out what your next move should be.

[STH17]

Thanks rminer, your advice sounds difficult to follow, but I am willing to do it. I've had all those knives in my heart too. That's a real literal pain in the heart too. Feeling it right now. I will go rock climbing tonight, and not go home early. I am meeting my therapist tomorrow morning. I'm always frustrated that those sessions are only one hour long. I've got issues for days! I do think they help though.

mtb1981, I am going to hold off on your advice. The spending is an extremely sensitive issue which I feel foolish waiting until now to talk about it, but still don't feel confident enough to have that conversation with her now. I can't control her spending any more than I can control her having an affair, right? Finances have seemed to be a conflict too large to talk about without risking instant meltdown. She still believes I have hurt her and it would show her "I haven't changed" if I ask her to spend less. I have three months of spending history as proof that what she is doing is unfair though. Even if I was making the income I'd have if I was graduated and working full-time, if she continued her same spending there would only be a tenth that amount left for me to spend. And that's not even allowing me to save for things that are important to me, like retirement and my son's education. So yeah I know the spending is a problem and needs to stop somehow, but I don't see an immediate solution to that which I can implement without regret. I might also mention however that she has had her own private checking account she opened a year ago for herself and apparently is only saving that money for her escape. Which I don't understand, because she could have left any time already with the amount of money she spent on clothes and cosmetics and hobbies.

There's more to this spending story but I need to go home now and watch my son while my wife goes to her workout class. I'm suspicious of that class too. I haven't told her I want to go rock climbing tonight yet. I will tell her when I get home. I don't want to make it easy for her to plan ahead for my absence. Is that manipulative on my part? Or not letting go enough?

[rminer]

I might also mention however that she has had her own private checking account she opened a year ago for herself and apparently is only saving that money for her escape. Which I don't understand, because she could have left any time already with the amount of money she spent on clothes and cosmetics and hobbies.

You need to remember that she has the security of your M and the excitement of the A. Right now she has the best of both worlds. She might be saving to leave, but something is still keeping her around.

When you have a chance, read ALL of sandi2's threads on the WW's mindset. Everything she explains in those threads is virtually identical to what my W was doing and the way she was acting. sandi2 was a WW, so she gives some great insight.

Is that manipulative on my part? Or not letting go enough?

I wouldn't say it is necessarily manipulative, but it does show you are obsessing a bit. You will not be able to stop her from meeting up with the OM. Just know that. If she wants to, she will find a way. Do not try to control her actions. If you do, she will rebel even more. Just learn to let go and detach as best you can. I've been trying to detach since Jan, and I haven't gotten there yet. It's hard and takes time. Once you begin the process, it all becomes easier.

Detaching doesn't mean you stop loving her, it just means you emotionally remove yourself from what she is doing and let her make her own mistakes.


You will hear a lot of advice that is counterintuitive here and you will have a hard time grasping it as most of us have. It seems crazy, but it works.


When you have questions, ask. There are no stupid questions here. Before you make a major move, seek advice. There are many experts here that will help. Most of all, do not take offense to what people say to you. 2x4s are common around here and we all need them, so when someone says something that stings a bit, stop and think about it. They are only being blunt to help.

[mtb1981]

Whatever you want to do, man. It's your choice. You're right about not being able to stop her seeing OM and having A, but from what I understood is that money was from your student loan, not her shoe loan. That is something you should have a say in. Just don't let yourself be a doormat. Like rminer said, read Sandi's threads on WW. They need tough love and you need her to respect you if you want to save your M. Spending thousands of dollars of your student loans to buy shoes and new clothes to look good for OM is far from respecting you. You need to read Sandi's thread ASAP. Good luck, brother...

[STH17]

Last night when she came home from her workout and before I went rock climbing, she said she wanted to buy a car. She said she saw one down the street that she wanted. I thought that meant a used car in a driveway, but then she said it was $8000, and she had enough for the 10% down payment but not the monthly payments since she didn't have a job. And there was another one she liked but this one had less miles on it. I asked her what the monthly payment would be and she said she thought $150-$200 a month. She has complained about wanting a new car before, but now it sounds like she is making more plans for herself, and not even asking what I think about buying a car. What I think is yes, we could use a new car, but we need to budget for it. And she has not wanted to look at a budget with me since separating in January. A friend advised me that if she is indicating that she is planning on making large financial decisions without me, I should do something to protect my own interests. I don't yet know how to do that without my actions being perceived by her as as controlling and abusive. I haven't contacted a divorce attorney yet, but now seems to be the right time for that. I think I will make that phone call after posting this. I don't want a divorce, but I know I can't stop one if she wants it so I'd better get ready, right?

When we were in marriage counseling last December, our therapist revealed to both of us that my behavior towards my wife amounted to emotional abuse. That pretty much broke my wife, and my immediate reaction was to want to help her heal and never hurt her in that way again. The core issue then seemed to be that she felt she had lost her identity in our relationship because of my frugality, which made her feel like money was more important to me than her, and I made her feel bad about spending money on herself, just because I wouldn't have spent it that way. I recognized my attitudes about money were hurtful to her. understood those feelings finally as a result of a men's retreat I went on last November where I did the most powerful emotional work of my life up to that point.

Other things she has wounds about and I want to apologize for are our sexual relationship. Being raised Catholic I ended up thinking the only non-sinful way to have sex was PIV, and I didn't believe my wife when she told me that wasn't enough for her. Therefore she was often left unsatisfied, and was hurt by apparent unwillingness to give her what she needed. I've done a lot of work on my own to change my beliefs about sex and have become much more liberal in that regard. I have not communicated that to my wife though, since I didn't want to just sound like I was saying "see how much I've changed!?" And the only physical contact we've had in the last six months is maybe a dozen group hugs with our son, two or three instances of hand-holding, and one hug with each other when I was feeling really lonely and touch-deprived. My desire for physical contact grew stronger the more comfortable she started to become around me, which led me to ask for a hug that time. I don't think she was comfortable with it though.

Anyway, I thought I was respecting the distance she wanted between us, and was trying to do everything I could to work on myself and the marriage by trying to have positive interactions,
turn towards her bids for attention, be vulnerable myself to rebuild trust, manage my emotions so I wouldn't say things out of anger I would regret, talking about conflicts when I recognized them instead of avoiding them (which is why I approached her about the message I read which worried me about an affair), and asking her if something was wrong if I saw her in distress rather than avoiding her unpleasant feelings. That all seemed to be helping her feel safer around me and more connected, though I could see there was a long way to go still. That all changed when I asked about the message I read though, and now I think she views all those acts of kindness and positive changes in myself as manipulative behavior. I had been taking on a lot more of the housework too, but feel I can't keep that up anymore which frustrates me to have that also be seen as an inconsistency or something I didn't really change. It's not that I don't want to continue contributing with the housework, I just don't think I can continue it any longer at the same pace without any effort from her. Sigh, I know that I could still exhaust myself by doing all the housework, but I also know acts of service is not one of her LL.

I think this post is getting too long, but I've got a lot more to get out and I worry about not having enough time. The fashion show is tonight, and my wife is going to a baby shower tomorrow two hours away in our hometown. I want to ask her to take our son with her, so I can have more time to work through things on my own this weekend, and write an apology letter. (I won't tell her why, just tell her I need a day or two to myself, which is what she told me last week when she met with AP)

Met my therapist today and my homework is to say this to my wife: "I am sorry that I hurt you. I was emotionally abusive towards you. How do you want to move forward? I don't want a divorce, but if you want it you will have to start it because I emotionally can't."

Doesn't sound like something people her would recommend I say, but I see now that nothing can improve MR while W believes I am her abuser, and that will not change without me acknowledging it to her and apologizing. I want to write a complete apology letter this weekend. I was going to last weekend but A discovery got in the way.

[SteveLW]

Very insightful post. I am sure at a minimum your wife felt you were controlling. I was the same way as you when it came to spending money. On my BD, she spent several minutes telling me how she wanted more leeway related to buying things for the house, and for charity (our church holds charity drives and I've discouraged her in the past from going "overboard"). Whenever she'd leave to go shopping I'd say "be sense-able!". Like your W I think she felt I cared more about money than her.

The weird thing (maybe God's intervention?) is that our financial situation got a lot better in the months after BD. And because of her grievances in that regard I did a 180 and loosened up about money. This had a big effect on her. She knew that would be one of the most difficult changes I could make so as she tested it over time my consistency in not behaving the way I had previously really started to make her believe the changes I was instituting.

She likely is testing you. Are your changes real? If I say I want to spend this money will he react the way he always has? If you are interested in saving things I would encourage you to back off and let her make this decision on the car. I don't know your financial situation, but if it is at all possible, then I would encourage you to just let her do it. Don't even give your blessing, just tell her it is up to her and you will support the decision either way.

And then see if there is someway you can sacrifice to help if it makes things difficult. One of the things I did was switched to bringing my lunch instead of going out every day. I was spending $10-15/day (4 days a week since I work from home one day a week). That is $200-300/month right there!

Controlling and emotional abuse is one of the worst things that we can do as spouses (behind only physical abuse). If you were that way then the biggest change you can make is to stop it, and if you need help stopping that then get it.

[Gerda]

STH, I am just writing a quick post to you to tell you that if MLC were 24 hours, you would be in the first millisecond of that 24 hours. You are at the big bang but you want to already be walking around on planet earth. I read that when I started and I didn't believe anyone. Then I thought it would be 2 years. I'm in year five and I just got rebombed. I'm not saying that will happen to you; I'm just saying, take a deep breath and stop trying to fix this. You can't fix it yet. It's true what everyone says -- you have to pull away completely and work on yourself and let her go. I came to Christ through my stand for my marriage. It's long, it's slow, but it's also beautiful. God will give you graces beyond imagining during this journey through the fire. If you are a Catholic, don't apologize, use it! Faith may be the best way for you to stand and it will certainly be the best way for you to forgive her daily for all the stuff she is doing and will do. Read Hosea, talk to a priest who believes in the sanctity of marriage. The more you commit yourself to the stand, the more you will be able to do it. Your obsession over the A is totally normal, but it's not true. It may be true that horrible things are happening, but it's not true that it's the end of your marriage -- greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world! Get ready for your spiritual battle, you can do this! Check out Rejoice Ministries, it will help you a lot if you want to lean on your faith. The movie "Fireproof" also was pivotal for me, and I did the Love Dare many times over, but your W may not respond to it at all for a long while.

You can't fix this yet. You have to take a deep breath and step back. You can do it, you can do it, God will help you, I promise!

[Gerda]

P.S. And I also forgot to say that if your wife is entering MLC, you have to be really careful or she will spend everything you have. Money was always a huge issue for us too, my H was always a bit crazy with it, and in deep debt when we met, but my H has spent well over 30K on extras and tuition during his MLC not to mention left me with all our debts and continues to demand money from me since I "refuse" to sell the house (he wants to live on his half). You can show respect and love to her without letting her buy a car you can't afford! That is not a good test of your love or marriage or a good way to buy her or you back, it is a an MLC-style test. I would try something more proactive -- e.g., tell her that you will always take care of her because she is your wife but out of respect for your marriage and to make sure your son is taken care of, you will always put the family's needs first. You could tell her that you want her to feel the control of her choices that she craves, so she can make her own account and you will put X amount into it per week from your earnings, and out of that can come all her spending for her car, groceries, etc. Then if she wants to blow money on a car you can't afford, it will be a consequence she faces on her own. My H demanded his own account in the beginning and I was crushed. But in the end, it enabled me to start separating finances enough that his crazy MLC excesses (hair transplant, for example) damaged deeply but so far didn't destroy our family.

[STH17]

MLC is probably all rolled into this too. My wife and I haven't talked about that together, but at the beginning of our separation she was very crushed by her realization that she had "lost her identity" because of our relationship. We never had a constructive conversation about that. I've been practicing not getting defensive when she says stuff like that, but the result ends up being I don't say much of anything at all, which leaves her feeling like I don't care or don't understand her.

Last night was the fashion show. I tried to be asleep before she came home so I wouldn't be thinking about when she might come home. I woke up when she did come home, but pretended to be asleep. I thought that was the right thing to do to try to "detach" and not open up a can of worms by asking "how was the show?" and somehow be seen as prying, but it felt dishonest to pretend not to be awake. I think if I can successfully stop looking for evidence of an affair, I am afraid that will end up just widening the disconnection between my wife and I.

I did ask her about the show this morning, and I enjoyed the conversation for the most part although it was difficult to maintain eye contact as I was worried about sounding too inquisitive. I asked if she had some pictures of the outfits I could see, which she did share with me. I didn't ask if she saw anyone she knew, but she told me that she only saw one person she knew. Overall, nothing really suspicious about our conversation, and I was trying to act AS IF I had nothing to be suspicious about. The more I can do that, and the less snooping I do, the less suspicious I may become. I can see myself in the future even starting to believe that I was just really anxious and making up an affair story in my head because I was so afraid of that happening. Like now I am starting to think of other possible explanations for the evidence I found, but I worry I am just fooling myself. I think the bottom line is, I don't want to feel the pain of her having an affair, and I also don't want to mistakenly assume she is having an affair and have that affect how I think of her and behave towards her. That is why I asked her about the first message I read. I haven't thought about that message for a while, but as I do now it reminds me of how all the pieces of the story I constructed fit together and seem to not allow any other conclusion than an affair.

I'm trying to stay off Facebook, which one thing that is helping me.

There are three reasons I asked my wife to take our son with her today:
1. So I could work on writing an apology letter to her
2. So I could have some time to GAL and do something for myself
3. As some insurance against her meeting up with AP. I recognize this is a similar behavior to what I did a few days ago by not telling her I was going rock climbing until the last minute.

I think my wife may be just as suspicious of my request to have the weekend to myself as I was of her request to have a day to herself. But I think as long as I have nothing to hide, I don't really have to worry about her suspicions. Ugh, now I'm just thinking of all the evidence I have seen of her affair though, and I want to STOP DOING THAT! I'm going to fold some laundry and listen to loud music now. I like loud music, and I never get to enjoy that when my wife and/or son are home. So time for some me time! Crank it! Then I think I'll go rock climbing again. And maybe have a meal in the city. I think I will also renew my membership at the rock climbing gym, which just expired. I think I'll go for the three-month membership, even though W and I had decided to move out of state by mid-June. That was assuming I could find a job there by then. I'm debating backing out of that agreement though and staying put now. I think that might force my wife's hand on starting divorce proceedings though. I don't want to do that, but I don't want to make a move out of state for her if she is just going to leave me anyway. The trouble there is that if the move really is the best thing for her, I don't want to get in the way of that either. I am fearful of an ugly custody battle arising from that too. I think there are some haaard conversations that will be forced very soon, and I worry I won't be ready for them. I'll probably keep posting here about it and hopefully have some insights as I do. Writing my thoughts helps.

By the way I did schedule a consultation with a family law office just to try to be ready for what I think is imminent. I don't want to tell my wife I have done that, because I don't want divorce proceedings to start. I am doubting the wisdom of completing the homework my therapist gave me as well. Like, I know I can't stop my wife from starting the divorce, but do I really want to be giving her any ideas or telling her to just go do it if she wants to? :P

aahhh NOW it's loud music time! !

[SteveLW]

On #1, you are not going to give it to you are you?