Afraid of the dark

[Ste7e]

OK I am starting a new thread as my old one is almost full and I want to keep a different focus here.

The quick and dirty is I was extremely depressed from my own MLC and dealing with the death of several family members. I got Fat and after a good 7 years together W and I started arguing last Nov. She BD me late Jan and I acted like a cry baby and opened my eyes to my faults. She moved out end of Feb saying we would do counseling and after a month of no contact one of the pets got sick and died and she came over to help. While here She said she didn't want to do counseling and wanted a D. I didn't see her for another month but there was pursuing behavior and ILY during that time from me. She initiated a meeting we had a very nice night but it ended in her wanting to fast track the D. I stated my stance ILY and not wanting a D and validated otherwise even saying I was proud of her for doing the work on herself which was the only thing I got a positive response from. She claims no EA/PA and is just focused on her spiritual development...and wants to remain friends but can't have a romantic relationship with me. But is encouraging me to continue to work on myself. I started seeing a shrink,I am no longer suffering from depression and generalized anxiety, started an emotional 12 step program, go to yoga 5 times a week, cut out sugar and fried foods, I have lost 35lbs since she left and have begun looking for work after 3 years! But it doesn't appear that she has taken any notice of these things oh well I feel great so no worries!

That pretty much gets us caught up and where I want to go from here is to track my experience going completely dark with a daily journal to keep myself occupied when I feel overwhelmed. Feel free to come along for the ride or not. I realized that I need to stop pursuing and more so stop expecting and focus on me.

Day #1 of darkness began yesterday, W came by Sun to sort the rest of her possessions from mine and her parents are coming by to get them this coming weekend. I have chosen to leave town for the weekend and go hang out with friends. I am quite proud of myself for the exchange on Sun I left soon after she arrived and avoided all confrontation in an emotionally charged situation. I was not going to take the bait...even if the bait was coming from inside me. I felt yesterday was a good place to start my voyage into darkness as I had said everything I needed to say the previous week and am ready to DB fulltime and open the birdcage.
Well day 1 was horrible I didn't get much sleep the night before on the phone with a buddy til 3am. I thought I was going to skip yoga but ended up going afterall which was good for me. I had a job interview midday which was not the right fit and was in my old career field which having burned out on started my MLC 3 years ago. I came home and looked for more jobs but found I didn't have experience and felt trapped, same cycle as start of MLC. I had a full breakdown in the kitchen and ended up in a ball crying for an hour. I felt like I had nowhere and no one to turn to so I just cried it out. I ended up calling my dad and talking to him about work options to bring me happyness. He is a great resource as he is the king of detachment and has been through 3 marriages. He was very helpful and encouraged me to look for things at an entry level and just begin a new path in life. Went to a meeting and was asleep by 10.
Proud of myself for not reaching out to W even though I was hurting like nothing ever before. Proud of myself for instead of sinking into a pity party got back to the work of rebuilding my life for me.

Today was day 2 went to Yoga, had a work call with a buddy who is working on a writing project with me ate lunch mowed the yard, got on here going to make dinner take a bath watch some tv and call it a day. Today has been much better didn't really think about W much. I am anxious to get out of town though as I do better not thinking about her when I am engaged and away... and only have 36 more hours til I'm on the road...I can do that, I can do one day at a time just need to stay in this day.

[Ste7e]

Day #3 So far today has been odd. I woke up this morning and for the first time wasn't instantly hit by the severity of the situation. IN fact it took me awhile to even picture my WAW in my mind. Went to see my shrink didn't mention W once just talked about job stuff and anxiety. Went to another job interview which was better than Mon. not feeling so overwhelmed, but job is in a different field so that might be why. I have a dinner party with friends to go tonight which will be nice. I guess there is a sliver in acceptance today so far?

[Davide]

Hey Ste7e!

Riding out these ups and downs is rough. Stay strong. There will be good days and bad days. Just survive the bad days and try to improve yourself on the good ones. I am reacting just like you - you dropped a bunch of weight - I've dropped 25 lbs in a month. We are both doing yoga, seeing a therapist. I have an appointment with a doc tomorrow and am thinking about getting on an SSRI anti-depressant/anxiety drug to even out the wild swings.

The other thing I will say reading through your post that I have found to be true is that sleep is super important. I constantly struggle the day after a bad night's sleep. I have resorted to taking NyQuill (just 2 capsules, never more) to help knock me out when I am having trouble. Exercising incessantly helps a good bit, but sometimes that dosesnt help shut down the mind.

Hang in there! (also I couldnt read your response on my post and would LOVE to hear your thoughts).

[Ste7e]

Davide thanks for the encouragement.
Yeah Sleep is a huge deal when dealing with my anxiety.
I haven't mentioned it yet but I have totally fixed my sleeping schedule I used to stay up all night and sleep til noon and now I go to bed around 10pm and wake up at 6:30am which is a huge 180 for myself.
I am sober so the nyquil thing is not really a healthy option for me. I have been thinking about medication for depression/anxiety also but have not felt that I fully need it yet as upping my health regiment has been doing wonders so far for me, but it is not off the table if I start to slip. It is sort of a vicious cycle I get anxious about becoming depressed again...but anxiety is a cause for depression.
In your thread I mentioned wishing I had moved out instead...the big reason for that is that when this all began it was all about me and my WAW had a laundry list of complaints. I have since begun addressing all those complaints but along her journey it stopped being about her resentment about me and her "spiritual growth" and need to kill her ego etc. these are all good things for her and things which I believe could be done in the relationship... but because she moved out and severed her connection to her old life those changes and growth are viewed in context of being free.

[Ste7e]

Day #3 continued.
Ugh it hit me hard tonight. Went to dinner party and a bunch of our Couple friends were there. One of them my W has pissed off a couple weeks ago. They were all happy to see me and we all had a good time but it felt like my W had died or something her absence was really strong even though none of us talked about it. I came home and tonight is normally the night W comes over to see the pets. It was clear that she never came. Quite a roller coaster of emotions today

[LoneWlf]

Hey Steve,

I'm feeling the same at times I fell things are good like while I'm coaching my son's baseball team and then I look around and see all the families-then it hits me that there's a big hole in my life without W. I know you've heard this stay strong - stay on course..take care

[Ste7e]

Day #4 Well yesterday was hard. Whatever detachment and acceptance I had tapped into on day 3 evaporated up waking. I spent hours driving and just thinking on the situation. I am so confused on what all has happened. It really feels like the BD was an overnight change of heart. I ended up running into one of W best friends last night who wanted to talk to me about what was going on. I just focused on talking about all the changes I was making and how I was doing good. I did not go into any details except to say that W has asked for a D. The friend then told me that when she saw W a few weeks ago that W was very cagey about explaining anything and had said that this was just a break as she figures stuff out and that W really wanted to ensure that we remained friends. What is strange about this is that this after W had initially stated to me that she did not want to work on the OR and wanted a D? I'm really trying not to get my hopes up in anyway but found it all strange. The friend also told me that a mutual married couple we all know who were planning on D and had seprerated at the same time as me had just reunited! Not sure if this will have any influence on my WAW?
On a positive note for finding myself I have been really enthusiastic about the career direction I am heading in and am signing up for some summer school to get some new skills...I am seeing the merit in GAL.

[Davide]

Ste7e,

The days go up and down, that's for sure. Just get through the tough days and trust that the next one will be easier.

It sounds like you need to focus more on yourself and not get caught up with what the W is saying to other people. You cant control her anyway. Try not to get too high or too low with anything she says or does. The focus is on getting yourself stronger and better. Sounds good about the new career direction and summer school. Having goals and motivations like that are important.

(I still struggle with all this as well, so my words are as much for me as you!)

[Ste7e]

They are good to hear...it helps to have a voice outside my own head to refer to thanks Davide. Yeah detachment detachment detachment I feel like a shark who has to keep moving or it will die...when I am not busy she creeps into my head and I am stuck again.

[Ste7e]

Day #5
Not a great day filled with alot of anxiety. A buddy I was supposed to see was busy so I had alot of idle time and being out of town I had a hard time filling it. A lot of lonleyness as I ran about doing pointless errands. It did make me appreciate my normal routine back home which is worth something. I really had to just dig in deep on myself and kept thinking about how I have to learn to be happy and enjoy my own company. I know I used to be able to do that just trying to remember how? I had a few brief moments especially when I would catch myself thinking about the future and ground myself into the present moment I realized I was ok. Serious baby steps of the most smallest order but progress to getting back to myself.
I am really surprised that WAW has yet to text or anything even just in a logistical way related to her moving the rest of her stuff this weekend or the pets? I know she said that she unfollowed me on social media because she can't handle being reminded of me so maybe she is dong everything in her power to just wipe my existance because I do have some influence. Also she did see me for the first time with a new haircut and 35 lbs lighter last week I wonder if that is having an effect which she is trying to squash. I would really like to know what exactly it takes for a WAW to have a change of heart? I know I shouldn't care but I do I am just at the beginning of my journey.

[Davide]

Stay strong Ste7e!

Keep working on GAL and detachment. Enjoying the present moment is paramount. Thoughts to the future are always going to provoke anxiety. Find those good moments and savor them.

Stop focusing on her thoughts and reactions. You can't control them and thinking about them only prevents you from detaching. I have a mantra I repeat to myself to snap me out of thoughts like that. Find your own way to nip those thoughts in the bud before they become obsessive (and I know how obsessive they can become!)

[Ste7e]

Ok need some advice so WAW called today and didnt leave a message then texted two hours later to say that she was packing stuff to donate and see if I wanted to go through it I assume I do not respond or do I wait and respond

[Davide]

I mean, is this something you have to take care of or is she just looking to engage in you conversation? There are certain things around the house that my wife needs to talk to me about and I will certainly respond to her about them. But if she is just fishing, then let it go. Only you know enough about the details of your situation to tell the difference.

[Ste7e]

OK been thinking about your question about is it something I need to engage in...I decided that this is not something I need to engage in and something which I do not care about. Let her figure out what to donate etc.
I guess upon going dark I did not think about how I would respond when WAW reached out to me?
It has also questioned why I am going dark...
What I have come to is that I can not focus on myself if I am focusing on interactions with WAW and it has been my experience so far that when we interact she just slam dunks me at the end and sets me back to square one.
I am done with that I am making progress on my own finding a sliver of serenity and piecing my own life back together.
I also have read all of Sandi's threads and even though I am dealing with a WAW truth be told she acts like a WW.
I also came to realize that despite her desire to remain friends this is just something I do not want. And I guess I am resigned to hold out until she either has a change of heart or files for D and it is all finalized. From what I read by Sandi the only chance I have now is to not friend zone myself and grow a pair. Is this something I need to convey to WAW? Not holding on and not responding is a 180 for me. I do not depend on her for my happiness and if anything currently she is an impedence to said happiness (maybe how I relate to her with NGS has been an impedence for years?). I have also read the Pursuer/distancer thread and man oh man are those description spot on. Thus I will stop pursuing all together.

I came home from out of town tonight and she had moved out the remainder of her stuff but left just the box of our wedding invitations...I took it as very passive aggressive and it really hurt. I Love her dearly still and believe if she were willing to also try we could stand a real chance... but where is my self respect in this when she is just constantly hurting me. Thus I am dark and not responding. Please any advice is very greatly needed now on how I proceed.

[Davide]

Can I ask a dumb question, what is the difference between a WAW and a WW? I know one is walk away wife and the other is wayward wife, but I'm still not 100% clear on what the difference is.

You definitely need to work on the detachment part. (so do I!) For as much as you GAL and don't pursue and do 180s it is clear that she still has an emotional hold over you. You are giving her that power to upset you, you can take it back. In my mind that is what detaching is all about.

I think you are right not to respond if you really don't need to. Do you feel like you need to go full NC in order to get enough distance to detach? If you do, then I think you need to do it. For me personally, the physical separation and distance helps, but I know that I need to interact with my W about certain things (our dog, moving back in, finances) and for me the key is just keeping the emotion out of it. I feel fortunate because I don't think my W is manipulative or angry or bitter, just absolutely confused. I have compassion for her journey, but can only control my own. I read all this passive-aggressive, or manipulative, or just nasty BS that so many wayward spouses pull, and I am thankful that I haven't had to deal with that.

You say that she slam dunks you at the end when you talk, what exactly do you mean? Is she putting you down or leading you on? Why react to that? She clearly has her own issues, and they are not about you. If she gets nasty just don't engage. Walk away if you have to.

[Ste7e]

From what I understand a WAW is just done with the relationship.
A WW is having an active A or thinking about it and acting like a 21 year old again.
From what my WAW tells me she is not having any A and has no interest in any relationship and I trust what she tells me. Besides holding in resentment towards me for my life choices she has as far as I can tell always been completely honest with me. And until proven otherwise I am working on trusting her as that is a personal issue of trust I brought into the relationship from some pretty disfunctional previous relationships. So maybe she is not a WW at all...I am just so confused on what is happening.
Things got hard and she just bailed it is what she does it is her pattern with all her past relationships. She has a lot of work to do on herself. But besides that she is a really great smart, fun attractive and smart person and I really love her that is why I am here. I want to be with this amazing person and spend my life with them. It is why I got married to her in the first place. It is why I am emotionally attached still. I will probably always feel that way which is why NC is my only option to save myself if she doesn't want to have a Romantic Relationship with me. It hurts so bad what we had was so special and great I really thought I had met my soulmate. The past two time we saw each other it was there even though we are going through this that special connection was there...I dont think she was leading me on in anyway...but when we were done hanging out she would just push so hard away which would crush me. I think she is just so desperately pushing me away despite her love for me she is scared and what I showed her over the last couple years was me at my worst and she doesn't want to be trapped with that, I dont blame her I dont want to be trapped with either. Which makes my GAL 180 so hard is that I am seriously blossoming and becoming myself again and being happy with myself slowly. But it is all too little too late and she doesnt see it because all she sees is me at my worst still. It all feels entirely hopeless I have lost the second best thing to ever happen to me...the first is finding myself. I wish we could start again as equals and see where this could go. But she has closed the door and moved on. Heartbreaking.

[Ste7e]

I guess it is also worth mentioning that every single person I know is in shock that we split up and I keep hearing you guys were so great together what happened so whatever was running in her was not seen by anybody outside her
Its been almost three months and I am still so confused by what happened

[Davide]

Hang in there. It will get better, but you have to keep working on it. Keep working on yourself. Detachment is a process and we are all at different points. It sure sounds like the two of us are in nearly identical situations with spouses who think they are done, but no affair, no kids, 7-8 years together. I feel the same way about my wife as you do - she is beautiful, smart, funny, caring (and also in the throes of a MLC). You can recognize all that and still detach. In fact you need to keep working on just that.

[Ste7e]

Fell asleep last night reading the detachment tread it was powerful
I started to piece together alot of different thread I am working on for myself in it
I had read it before but didnt have enough reflexive self knowledge yet to get it

[Ste7e]

W did text me first thing this morning to see if I had made it home from out of town and if she needed to feed the pets
I did respond immediately by saying I was home and left it at that
I am a bit flustered I broke NC as I feel even an exchange this trivial sets me back
I would love some feedback from more experienced DB on NC and going dark

[SteveLW]

W did text me first thing this morning to see if I had made it home from out of town and if she needed to feed the pets
I did respond immediately by saying I was home and left it at that
I am a bit flustered I broke NC as I feel even an exchange this trivial sets me back
I would love some feedback from more experienced DB on NC and going dark

No, that isn't a setback. A setback would be her showing up to feed the pets with you still there. Remember, NC doesn't include logistics when it comes to kids (and many people view their pets as kids).

[TBSakaJ9]

W did text me first thing this morning to see if I had made it home from out of town and if she needed to feed the pets. I did respond immediately by saying I was home and left it at that

If she asks you a question it is ok to respond. If it was just informational in nature then there is no need. Responding with one word answers is recommended. You may also start to practice not responding immediately.

I am a bit flustered I broke NC as I feel even an exchange this trivial sets me back

No, its not a setback. You didn't break NC she contacted you.

I would love some feedback from more experienced DB on NC and going dark

If you don't have any kids then it sounds like your only correspondence would be over your dogs and financial questions as it sounds like your dogs are your kids.

If that is the case then just communicate with about those two things but keep it brief, don't look for excuses to contact and generally she should be the one to initiate. My EW still initiates about 90% of our conversations.

[Ste7e]

Well I am only just past lunch today and I am feeling extremely hopeless. I feel like her getting the rest of her stuff really is a nail in the coffin. She has gotten a storage locker to store it all and her parents helped her move it which means that she has informed them of what is going on. I just don't see how this can turn around. How many on here have a WAW completely move out and end up moving back in to the OR house later? I feel like the house is tainted now for her.

[Ste7e]

I am also really confused about the feedback I get on here. I am trying to do whatever it takes to save my M but it seems like everyone is saying just let it go and forget about it. Which I read as it in not going to happen buddy, which is not very encouraging.
I also can't help but think that NC is a bad idea we have barely been in contact this whole time and she keeps moving further and further away. Because I am not dealing with a WW has my actions been the wrong approach I guess I just don't understand the rationale of letting go to and letting the WAW work through all the moves to D. Is she supposed to have some sort of revelation and change her mind. I just don;t see it happening. Ugh I am just hurting so bad today need some hope to keep fighting the good fight.

[LH19]

Man I should just copy and paste this on every thread. It's called the illusion of action. You feel you have to do something to prove your love to her. The problem is it is too late for that at this time.

Time plus distance plus you kicking the $hit out of life with strong actions is the only thing that will turn this around.

Think of your W as a cat. What happens when you chase after a cat? It runs. A cat will approach you when it feels safe. That is when you let her go then she will become curious again.

The question is can you let her go?

[LoneWlf]

Ste7e,

Your focus needs to be on you. This a journey she needs to go alone. It does not make it any easier but if your don't detach it will take you alot longer to heal. You can only control you. Be the best you so that at the end of this bad dream you still win with or without your S. Chin up , stay positive and work on you. I am in a similar situation WAW is packing this week and moving out. It is killing me insdie- but I will never show that to her. Blessings on your journey- stay well.

[Davide]

Ste7e,

I feel your pain man. I do. I empathize with you so much since we have such similar situations. I want nothing more in this world than to reconciliate with my wife as well. It broke my heart when she told me in no uncertain terms that she wouldn't be there when I move back in, in August, and that she didn't want to be married anymore. It is a brutal kind of pain.

But neither of us can control our wives. Neither of us can make them love us again or make them want to reconcile. Only they can do that. The only thing we can do is take care of ourselves, work through our own issues, be the lighthouse and be in a better position for a future relationship with our W's or anyone else. I also feel like by not reaching out to my W, I am letting the relationship slip away a day at a time. But the truth is, our W's are already gone (emotionally if not yet physically). Holding on tight is not going to bring them back - we already tried that.

Hang in there. Keep posting here. You can do this.

[Ste7e]

Thanks for the encouragement I am just in a real time breakdown ugh.
Yeah I accept the need for logistic contact and need to learn to take longer to respond.
Wish I was as calm and collected as you Davide I come and go out of it. I have yet to have a single good day but I have had a number of half days so that's worth something. But half days aren't a lighthouse, I guess I question being a lighthouse as my WAW is so calm collected and robotic about this whole thing that how can I be a lighthouse when she doesn't need it? She has a "process" that she is doing in relation to all of this.
After reading the detachment thread and some MLC threads I had a shocking realization that she might be doing all these things to me. But somewhere along the way she just stopped caring about wanting to be with me in the end.

LH19 you nailed it on the head and was something I needed to hear. When you say let her go do you mean if she comes back around or right now? Also what do you mean by strong actions?

Also can anyone talk to me more about the pros and cons of going Dark and NC

[LH19]

I mean let her go right now. Let her know that you don't agree that a D is the answer but if that is what she wants you will give it to her.

Strong actions are moving on your life and kicking a$$. Have a mission, have a purpose set goals and start knocking them off one by one. Work out, eat healthy, learn to play piano or guitar. Surround yourself with positive people who value your time and your presence.

NC and going Dark helps you with your emotional health. Plus it sends the message to your W that if you don't treat me right you receive the gift of missing me.

Time plus space along with strong actions will get her wondering. Why is Ste7 not pursing me anymore? Is he dating someone? Wow it sounds like he is doing really well. Maybe he wasnt so bad after all.

Do you have it in you? Most here dont this early on.

[Ste7e]

OK let me work through your list LH19 and thanks for getting involved in helping me.
1.) We met two weeks ago on Tues had a great time and dinner together. But upon coming home she doubled down on wanting to get a D. My response was I hear you and "I do not want to get a D and ILY but if this is what you need to do because ILY and want you to be happy I won't stand in your way" I validated and listened but made a few misteps about mentioning the future and past but quickly pulled out of those directions when I caught myself. I also made the mistake of saying that it looks like you are running from your problems but apologized after saying that. I ended the conversation by saying that I was proud of her for doing the work on herself, which she took favorably. But sort of put my foot in my mouth immediately afterwards by saying "selfishly if we were worth anything as a couple in the future the work needs to be done" which underminded my original sentiment.
I in total weakness the next day called her and expressed that I was just so confused and that I was scared of losing her in my life. She said I would not but that we she couldn't be in a "romantic relationship with me" and we talked a bit about the emotional work we were doing as individuals and she said that she needs to be equals in a relationship. I said that I felt like I crippled by fear to do anything in my life and she agreed that was my main problem.
I saw her again that Sun as she came over to sort through stuff she was moving out and I was extremely detached and told her I had to leave soon after she arrived.
I went NC from that moment on until the text this morning saying that I was home. I have to note that my not responding the day before got an 8am text first thing when she got up so maybe she was thinking about where I was?

2.) So in regard to strong actions I am on track. I started seeing a shrink.I have completely changed my diet and I work out and go to Yoga daily I have lost 35 lbs so far and am piecing together a new wardrobe mostly because not of my clothes fit anymore! I cut off my long hair and look great. I have been going to codependency 12 step meetings and have been surrounding myself with friends. I am already a musician and I have been working on projects and getting a new band together. I played live for the first time in 3 years a couple weeks ago. I am a writer too and have been working like crazy on my book everyday with an actual deadline to finish by July 1st. I started making art again to and dedicate an hour a day to it (which I know WAW would be proud of as it was something she always encouraged me to do). I also have been researching classes for Film and went on two job interviews last week and have been on the job hunt. She just doesn't seem to notice or care about any of these things?

3.) I totally see how NC helps me with my emotional state as shown by even such a simple text this morning sent me spiraling.
I have to be honest that I hope she does receive the gift of missing me. But I am being mindful of my actions and intent to be non controlling but acting first and foremost for myself and my own emotional state.

4.) To your final question do I have it in me. The answer is yes. I keep saying I will do whatever it takes (including dealing with an A if that becomes an issue). It's just sometimes I get in the monkey house and feel so much loss I am climbing the walls. I need to learn to quickly redirect my feelings into progressive actions when I feel this way...thus far posting on here has been my response which does help immeasurablly

[Ste7e]

HA! I just went to feed the cats (I do not have dogs fyi) and W doubled their food and water bowls when she was here yesterday so in essence they have about 4 days of food and water. Which makes the 8 am text about needing to come by to feed them today total BS

[LH19]

I said that I felt like I crippled by fear to do anything in my life and she agreed that was my main problem.

First the bad. These fuching statements have to stop. A woman looks to a man to be a leader. She wants a man who has a mission and a purpose who is ready to break down barriers. She also wants a man she knows that will have her back and take care of her. If I am reading this right you are out of work? Big turn off man if you can not provide for her.

The good. You seem to be heading in the right directions. Losing 35 pounds is awesome you should be proud. Playing in a band is great too.

Just know this is going to take a long time to sort out and slow and steady wins the race.

First goal is to obtain employment.

[Ste7e]

Yeah after that talk I realized I had to go NC to get my balls back. The out of work thing has been a real issue I had a MLC about my career path and I got a large inheritance when my stepdad died and I was so depressed dealing with that I quit my soul crushing job but never got something new which added to my MLC and depression.

[Ste7e]

I guess I should go into more details about financial entaglements to shed some light on the situation.

I was in education and I burned out on it big time after moving into an admin position. I was being over worked and the school I was at was imploding. I really poured myself into the job to save the school but it burned me out. At the same time I found out two family members had cancer and I had to help take care. I quit the school job and made money selling collectibles on ebay which was something I did before getting the admin position. It was my default fall back job but the depression really took ahold of me and I was burned out on that also. My W and I got married at this time.
I tried to work on a graphic novel which my wife was very enthusiatic about and she said she would pay for rent, bills and groceries. I was very much against this as I didn't want to have that dynamic in our relationship but after a year I took her up on it as she said it was sexist of me not to view her as the breadwinner. She has a very good very well paying job where she was making twice what I ever was. This is actually a big issue in that she works in tech and works downtown in a very hip culture which I just have no access to with my skills. I ended up getting burned out on the graphic novel as it was too time intensive and started a book instead which I have been working on for 2 years.

Her work really ramped up and she was working 12 hour days 5-6 days a week for the last year from the house half the time where I also was trying to work and we butted heads abit about the space. In addition it felt like she was so obsessed with work that I was an obstacle in her way. She really changed in the job. She was offered a different job which was way better but payed less and I said it was ok because I could support us on the inheritance money until it picked up. She ended up turning down the job because "her team needs her" ironically when we met last tues she said that her position had been terminated and she was going to work at the better job in the end.

SHe has also said that after she had moved out that she had time to think and read and work on her own book and that being at the house and or around me she felt trapped and couldn't get anything done. She is also a codependent and she said she was spending all her time trying to fill the void in me. I said I never asked her to. I guess also worth mentioning that I am 10 years sober and she drinks.

I feel a bit taken advantage of in her career rise as I was there emotionally for the first 5 years of it before my MLC set in, I got her to leave the crappy town we were from where she had no options and my family put the down payment on our house which we pay very little for in a very expensive rental market.

Everything went south just after our 2nd wedding anniversary where she said I was fat and not sexually attracted to me which really hurt my already bruised self confidence from the MLC. We started arguing which we had never done before and she took several trips without me. I also have a terrible fear of flying which had been a big issue. My Step brother was then killed in a Motorcycle wreck and right after the funeral she said I can't do this anymore and was moved out by the end of the month. etc etc..

I guess what I am saying is that any job I get which isn't in education (which I will not do again!) is going to be so lowly in comparison to what she does that it won't matter and I am better served completing the creative projects which in her eyes I could never finish. And that is where my focus is.

While I am ranting I need to say that my W is a very emotionally cold person and was completely unsympathetic to all the deaths I endured over the last year. I was told you just have to accept it and she even would make jokes about the dead a week after their passing. She has a self proclaimed black heart and it was something I could live with but when I needed real support she wasn't there. I can see how I failed in many many ways but as a friend of mine has said that's not stuff you get a D over. SHe has said "I should have never gotten married" and that "I just wanted someone to want me like that but wasn't prepared for the long haul" is this just all script?
She also started seeing a shrink right before BD and I am 99% sure she is being coached by her BFF in this separation. The BFF is a nice and smart person but also not a person I would ever look to for advice about anything.

All in all this just feels insurmountable and I guess it was toxic at times. But also more good than bad which is why I am so let down. I really think it can be fixed and be new I am no longer depressed my GAL and 180s are seriously changing my life and despite my best efforts I don't see how this can turn around.

[Davide]

Wow Ste7e, I am also in education! I'm still in it, but I know the burnout oh too well.

The lack of empathy from your wife during the tough time you endured with the passing of so many people close to you is striking. Was she always like that or do you think she had already begun to close off and detach from you? If that is her general personality I would think long and hard about whether that is the type of person you want to be in a long term R with.

I also got the "I wish I had never married" I think that is part of the script.

I don't think you can focus on turning the R around right now. Focus on turning yourself around. Work on the job front - I have to imagine that would help your self-esteem and GAL efforts a ton. If you get yourself in a good place you will be ready for a healthier relationship, with the W or with anyone else.

[Ste7e]

Yeah she has always been like that I always took it as a defense mechanism as she used to be a pretty big crier over the funniest things before she switched birth control about two years ago and the crying and her sex drive both tapered off right after

[Ste7e]

Day #9
Woke up very early today with a serious DGAF attitude.
Which is a good thing I am slowly regaining my manhood.
By posting a bunch here yesterday I could see my NGS tendencies whether that came across in my posts or not.
NGS is just me being lazy its comfortable and women eventually don't respect it.
I think I really played up the NGS because I was such a bad person when I was drinking 10 years ago that I wanted to change that but I went to far with it and became a doormat and when I was tired of being a doormat with no knowledge how to detach with love I became just straight up confrontational. It is hard for me to stay in the middle I am an extremes person which I really need to get over.
Also writing about my WAWs shortcomings helped to break something loose in my brain that maybe I wasn't that satisfied in the MR either and was just sweeping things under the rug or flat out ignoring them which began to fester and make me frustrated.

So what I am saying is that today is the first day I felt that I will be OK without WAW. Do I still want her back yeah sure but I don't need her back.

Just noticed that I had to go back and change every statement I made in this post because I led them all off with "I guess I" and that kind of indirect nonsense needs to go bye bye.

[Ste7e]

Just read this by 44tries in another thread

"The WAW is leaving the marriage for reasons surrounding the LBH--maybe he's an alcoholic, an abuser, has a gambling or sex addiction, etc. Could be all kinds of things, but it is a MAJOR problem(s) that would cause someone to be driven out of a MR with him.

The WW is leaving the marriage for reasons surrounding herself. She is looking for greener pastures because she has a selfish heart filled with disrespect, resentment, rebellion, etc. Yes, the degree can vary, but it is all about her."

What I am confused about is that initially my W was a WAW with a laundry list of complaints about me then she became a WW and made it all about her.

Which am I dealing with and doe sit even matter as far as my response?

[OrangeK]

The WW is leaving the marriage for reasons surrounding herself. She is looking for greener pastures because she has a selfish heart filled with disrespect, resentment, rebellion, etc. Yes, the degree can vary, but it is all about her."

Aint this the truth.

[Davide]

Ste7e,

You know your situation better than anyone, but I think that despite the complaints about you this is really about her. It is almost always easier to blame someone else rather than yourself, and that is where your W went first. It sure sounds like she needs to resolve her issues.

This thread is great for me in terms of clarifying the terms. I thought one had to do with an affair or something like that. My W has told me from the moment this started that it was about her. So she is definitely a WW. (Thats not to say that I dont have my own issues to work through - I do. We all do.)

[Ste7e]

Day #9 cont.
Man oh man what I wouldn't give to had a completely good day.
Whatever steam I had rolling this morning petered out around midday. It seems to be about the same time each day I just get overwhelmed with grief.
I went for drive and was just absolutely fighting the urge to contact W. I kept thinking about how since W left for the most part over the last 3 months I have had very little contact except for the week the cat got sick and died. And I feel that the more time we spent together the better things got whereas the more I was away the more she moved and pulled away. I guess I am just so confused on what I am doing, and fearful that I might be doing the wrong thing with NC. But at the same time I am using the NC as a buffer to both try and get myself together and also avoid contact which will be about pushing through the D. Last time we talked W wanted that to happen by the end of the month.

I really broke down tonight cleaning out my old clothes there was a tshirt I bought with W several years ago which I wore alot and thought I should donate it with a bunch of other old clothes which would remind W of OR. But I just couldn't do it and the wave of grief hit me so hard.

[LH19]

S,

Early on is the toughest part but it will get easier. Continue no contact and give her space. She has to choose to be with you that is the only way it works out long term.

Remember even if you do D that doesn't mean the story is over.

[Ste7e]

Yeah I was reading a couple threads here yesterday that had me realize that this is far from the end of the story
Two things I am curious about right now
First have people had the experience of the W who completely moves everything out move back in
Second am I dealing with a WAW or a WW

[LH19]

Yes it happens all the time.

Most likely a WW. Nothing really changes except if you know she is in an affair you do some things differently.

[Ste7e]

no known affair
I have read all of Sandis stuff and sort of know how to deal with an A
Which isnt a deal breaker for me btw
Just dont know how to adapt dealing with WW with no A

[LH19]

Give her space. When you interact listen and validate.

Thats it.

[Ste7e]

Gotha so the big difference is to validate vs not validating if they are having an A
LH thanks for your help I am reading up on your thread now too

[Ste7e]

Day #10 well thanks to all of you I made it through yesterday without breaking or reaching out to W.
I woke up in a bit of a funk but it soon lifted, I went to see my shrink and did not talk about W but talked about my previous disasterous relationship which was really helpful to see some of the root problems I was carrying over on my part in the MR. In addition I was able to unpack that I had gone through some serious trauma before meeting my W. Starting to see some emotional 180s I need to make.

Went to see my tailor and she almost had a heart attack she was talking to me for about a minutes before she recognized me she about fell over! She said I looked amazing and was half my size. She asked how W was and I told her we were separated and she was really sad as she helped us with all our wedding attire and we would go see her monthly to get stuff we thrifted hemmed and such. She said that she just couldn't understand it as we are so perfect for one another and that no matter what I shouldn't give up and that I was looking so good how could I lose. She said she would be praying for me which I honestly believed.
The sentiment was really nice and her not recognizing me made me feel like a million dollars!

[Ste7e]

Ok stupid question here
How long of being dark before I should expect to hear from WW in a temp check way
I know it has only been 11 days and she did text a couple days ago about a logistic
But I am wondering what I should expect and how long do I stay buried and dark

[Accuray]

How long of being dark before I should expect to hear from WW in a temp check way

There's no good answer to that unfortunately. If you were pursuing like crazy for a long time, then WW will be afraid you'll instantly start pursuing again the moment she reaches out to you, so in that context it could take quite a while for her to believe you're safe to reach out to.

If there's an active affair, reaching out to you might trigger feelings of guilt she wants to avoid, so she may not reach out to you until her affair is over and she's feeling lonely.

Point is, its all in her head and there's no way to predict that. Best way to look at it is that "a watched pot never boils", so if you don't expect her to reach out you won't be disappointed if she doesn't.

Acc

[AnotherStander]

Ok stupid question here
How long of being dark before I should expect to hear from WW in a temp check way
I know it has only been 11 days and she did text a couple days ago about a logistic
But I am wondering what I should expect and how long do I stay buried and dark

I know this is tough, but you've got to drop all expectations. You're going dark as a tactic to get a reaction from her when you should be doing it to protect yourself. Use the time away from her to work on yourself. Get out and GAL. Do things to occupy your mind. Don't even think about when she might contact you or what it will mean when she does. You stay dark for as long as you need to. Just keep in mind that going dark doesn't mean being cold/ rude/ indifferent. If she pings you and asks why you are being those then just say that's not your intent, that you feel like both of you need time and space from each other to work through things.

[Davide]

How is it going Ste7e?

All of the advice above is good stuff. The NC is for you not for her. There is no map, no timeline. This period of NC is a gift of time to you. How you choose to use it is what is most important. If you use it to stress over her, or her reactions, or her moves, that means you aren't focusing on you.

Also, can some of the old hands here explain a temperature check in better detail to me. I get the idea that the Ww or WH contacts the LBS to gauge how they are doing. Is that considered a good thing, though? My sense is that the response, if there is one, is short and brief and simply letting them know that the LBS is doing well, taking care of themselves.

[Ste7e]

Well it finally happened and I had a completely good day today

[LoneWlf]

Good Ste7e,

ride it out enjoy the highs! Keep going and stay well.

[Ste7e]

Ok so I am starting head up on two weeks if NC
My detachment is getting better day by day
I have been thinking alot about what happens when I need to actually interact with WW again what things I need to say some pointers here would help so that I am prepared and not blindsided

[Davide]

Ste7e,

Awesome to hear! Keep it up, man. I feel so connected/invested in your sitch.

I am talking to the WW tomorrow, for the first time in 2.5 weeks. I am going into it with a positive attitude, but also a plan for what I want to say. I'll certainly let her take the conversation where she wants, and I will listen and validate, but my plan is to keep it on business and logistics. For me, the key is doing it in a good frame of mind. I am going out for a bike ride ahead of time with friends and plan on GALing the whole afternoon. If I need to vent afterwards I plan on calling a good friend and letting it out, but I know she isn't going to hear any of it.

If you want to, run through some things on here that you would want/need to say to her. Remember, only initiate if you need to. If you can let it go, just wait and let her reach out to you first.

[Ste7e]

[Ste7e]

Yeah Davide we are living parallel lives ha
Great idea keeping it to logistics
I definately messed that up in my 5 previous R talks over the last 3 months
I would just start emoting ILY and how it could work
But WW wanted no part of that
Oops

[Ste7e]

[Ste7e]

Yeah the DB approach is totally antithetical to your emotions
The only positive which came out of the previous talks is I can say well she knows I how feel so I dont need tonsay that again
There is nothing I can say or do to change her mind its her choice
But I am looking good and have really GAL and done almost all my 180s on my list of 25 I made
So maybe she is just a fool

[Ste7e]

Argh disappearing posts on phone

[Cadet]

Argh disappearing posts on phone

Stop using contractions

[Ste7e]

Ok so WW finally contacted me about if she could see the pets tonight
I have not responded yet
I assume I should say yes and not be at the house when she comes

[Davide]

Depends. If it doesn't fit your schedule, don't go out of your way to accommodate her. But, yeah, if she comes over I would clear out.

[Ste7e]

Yeah it works with my schedule
How friendly should I be in the text reply or just logistical

[Davide]

I am always friendly in my text replies, but short. "Sure, come by at 8" or something like that. Don't try to extend it to engage her.

[Ste7e]

Went the friendly response text route
Got a friendly reply text 5 hours later
I was out when she came by business as usual
Weighed myself lost 5 more lbs
Been feeling much better last few days

[Ste7e]

Saw my new shrink yesterday he made a really insightful observation about my life that I appeared to be the victim of neglect in all my relationships
I never considered the concept of neglect and it really hit home

[Davide]

Good stuff Ste7e!

Keep working with the IC and on yourself. I have found that there is so much for me to work on independent of the relationship. There is so much room for growth in all of us. I guess that is what they mean by the "gift of time." It is such a great opportunity to make lasting improvements. The only caution I would have is with falling into a "victim" mentality. If I have learned anything over the past 6 weeks it is that I am far stronger than I ever knew. I felt like a victim before, but that was because I consciously or unconsciously gave up my own power. You are stronger than you think as well.

[Ste7e]

I am very aware of the victim mentality and its negative effects
But as I have been taking so much self accountability and blame on it was helpful to distribute that load and make some sense of a why

[Davide]

For sure. Our WWs are responsible for the ending of our relationships. They walked away rather than doing the work. That's on them. No matter what, I would have done a helluva lot more work before I ever considered leaving. You should never beat yourself up for someone else's (poor) choices.

It's just that you and I, and most people here, have so much power than we ever realized. Power over ourselves, our choices, our attitudes,our detachment, our ability to relate, our ability to set boundaries, our lives. There is so much power and freedom in that.

[Ste7e]

Agreed
Although this [censored] it has given me power I definately didnt have for years if not ever
My depression is gone and I am building the life I always wanted

[Ste7e]

Ok so W just texted me wants to talk with me after my meeting tonight get home around 10 also wanted to know about when I am going on vacation as she moved hers
I assume this is going to be more about fast tracking the D
How do I handle this do I push for another day

[Ste7e]

I really need to know what I need to say to W when she talks about wanting a D?
I assume it is something along the lines of "I do not believe in D, and this is what you want so you need to do it on your own" or something like that
I know to Detach, do not say ILY, listen and validate
what am I missing

[LH19]

I do not think that a D is the answer but I understand this is what you want and I will not do anything to try to stop it.

Listen and validate. Do not try to reason, guilt trip, beg, or plead.

Good luck.

[Ste7e]

what if she pushes me to be involved in the D filing etc

[Ste7e]

Also just so that I am covered on what to expect
What do I say if she tells me she is having an A

[LH19]

what if she pushes me to be involved in the D filing etc

Come on man. Seriously?

As for the second question I would tell her you will help her pack her $hit and she needs to be out by Friday.

[Ste7e]

she has already moved out 3 months ago

[Davide]

In terms of the D, follow what LH told you. That is spot on. If she files, she files. You can't control that. You can control what you do. If you don't want a D, don't file.

Do you have a reason to think she is having an A, or is this just fear projecting? Obviously don't validate an A, but you don't want to react emotionally either. You are the lighthouse. No matter what, A or no A, your W is acting out and damaging the relationship. You need to personally decide what that would mean to you in terms of continuing to DB, or letting go once and for all. But don't do that in the heat of the moment. Let it sit.

[LH19]

Well then a simple good luck with that and the end the discussion.

[Ste7e]

No I do not think she is having an A, just want to know how to handle it if that is thrown at me. I do not want to be caught off guard and become emotional.
I have thought about it and her having an affair does not change how I DB.
Stuff happens in life people make mistakes if at some point she wants to be in a R with me again I think we can make it work if we are both working on it.

[Davide]

Try to get out and do something fun to distract your mind before you meet. That really does help.

Just remember to stay calm and don't react. You are in control of your emotions, not her.

You got this.

[Ste7e]

Ok now I am a bit confused about what W wants to talk about?
I checked my email and she had just finally accepted my linkedin request (I started the job hunt in full earnest again last month).

She then texted saying we could meet tomorrow and asked if I was watching the basketball semifinals (ah I love how WW & WAW always shift the meetup dates oof)

I finally texted back saying tomorrow was fine and yes watching the games.

She texted back "OK. Great! I'll see you tomorrow" I texted to confirm time as I have buddy coming by during the day and she texted back "Yep!"

Looking back at her first text it also lead off with "Hey!"
All these exclamation points and general banter seems way more enthusiastic and friendly than any recent past text exchanges, and seems a bit too friendly to be dropping the D ax. I don't know maybe I am just being set up for the upcoming blow on the head or maybe the last 16 days of being dark are lightening her stance? Maybe she has met someone else and is now happy, that idea hurts but I am glad that she is happy.

Trying not to get too into her head and expect something but the mood just caught me off guard a bit. I know she wants to remain friends so maybe that is all she is setting up with no desire for anything more than a D and friends on the otherside booooo. Detach detach detach
Also thanks for the support crew!

[Davide]

What are we supposed to do with the desires for friendship?

I have read somewhere, I don't remember if it is here, that that is often an intermediary step before resuming the R. However, it also seems like it can be cake-eating from someone who has no desire to continue the R, but still wants the companionship.

Any experts who want to chime in?

[LoneWlf]

I cut an pasted this from one of the threads I cannot remember where...I think it was Sandi

I would say "I'm your husband not your friend and that's how I will keep it in my heart. We can do-parenting if D happens and be cordial, but I can't be your friend, when in my heart I'm meant to be your H. Then let it be. DB, 180, and live your life. But you not about to friend zone me after, I'm your husband and all you've done to me.


She doesn't want to be your W, but she wants some level of connection with you. Not in a romantic/sexual sense, but sort of like an ownership of you. I think 98% of the cases I have read, the WW wants to maintain some type of "friendship" with the H she dumped. However, there is a vital difference in his definition of their friendship......and hers. He thinks their friendship will gradually lead back to a romantic relationship. But she is a user.....a taker.....and she will use him and take advantage, and if he tries to step back or refuse, she claim, "But you said you wanted to be friends". So, it's a no win situation.

What you can do is be civil. Perhaps there will be times you can even show a small level of friendly behavior.......the way you would toward a neighbor that you don't really care to become best buds. Know what I mean? You speak, or wave.......and keep moving.

I wouldn't give her any in depth speech about why. Just say, "Thanks, but no thanks".
I mean.........friends? seriously??

[Vanilla]

Ste7e

I am answering you on this thread after your call out on another thread. I noticed that you moved to MLC. Remember I am giving you my thoughts only, your sitch is your sitch and everything you are is for you to know.

My thinking is that your W is a walkaway, she appears to have finished the M for multiple reasons including her unhappiness in the R with you and nothing you have written indicates she is wayward. I can't see any indication of serious disorder either.

She may at some stage post S get a bf but that isn't wayward if she has filed. Thus will likely unfold in time.

You aren't wayward or disordered either. This means I don't believe MLC forum is appropriate place for you to be for those reasons.

I can't see WAW changing her mind about the old M being over and she clearly wants D. Wanting D doesn't make a W wayward, it just means finishing an R that isn't working for her. You dating or going LRT isn't wayward either if your M is in the D stage. This won't I think make WAW believe a new M is possible.

I see a great deal of a poster called Ghost in you, the confusion and fear of abandonment. Ghost is a wonderful poster who fought for his M and really struggled to accept his R was over. His W was a WAW and as far as I am aware still hasn't a bf. It is possible to want an M over and still not be wayward or disordered. Some just want a single life or to be out of the M.

Ste7e there is nothing wrong with you at all. I sense some depression and much of that is likely to be as a result of being neglected in your R. Much of that can be because you neglected you, physically and emotionally. Like many of us you ceased to take extreme care of you or so it seems. It's no wonder you are down, there are several posters including AS and LH who have said this to you in different ways.

It is my thinking that LRT isn't useful for you. Firstly it is saying I think my M is over I am living my life free of M. In LRT you live your life as if you were moving on, you clearly arent at that stage. And secondly it requires a lot of emotional health to be LRT.

So what to do?

Sandi rules are right on point for you, I would have those printed and laminated to follow if I were you. Particularly becoming a man only a fool would leave. It's a no lose strategy for you. No lose because this means looking after you in every way. It is Classic DB strategy and clearly in my view a proven way to move forward.

It can be easier if a W is wayward and crazy because it's clear how a sitch is and often eventually evaluating a way forward is clearer. It's easier to move forward and move on mentally although it is painful. Even if WAW has a bf that doesn't make her wayward from your M, it just means she is done with your R and is moving on. It would be adultery though as you are not yet D, but are S.

MLC forum has some lovely folk in it and whilst you and WAW have no disorder you are very very down and struggling. MLC is where the crazy sitches are, I don't see your sitch as crazy. Your WAW is behaving as a W who has decided to end her M and that doesn't make her crazy or wayward. It just makes her determined and her behaviour is consistent with that. Those are my thoughts at this point.

You can stand for M for as long as you want and for a new M with a much improved Ste7e. Does this mean your WAW doesn't love you or hasn't loved you? Not at all, ILYBIANILWY may describe exactly how she feels at this time. And friendship with keeping the door open and the road back smooth is great as a strategy. If it were me then I might be saying "WAW I want you as my W not as my friend and I am working to become the best me I can be for myself and any future R I have". We know That W clearly felt deeply attracted to you, she M with you.

I want to introduce you to a concept called extreme self care, looking after you and your health. Losing weight, finding work you love to do, having GAL, hobbies, interests and getting yourself together. In particular medical help for the long term depression, finding out why you think so little of yourself. Why have you been in an R where you are clearly neglected? And in this you neglected you too.

Why haven't you looked after you? Is it something from childhood? I would be interested in your ACES score. (Adverse Childhood Experiences Score). I think this goes deeper than your M and getting to look after you and putting in place self care and self regard is going to be wonderful.

I see a wonderful bright future for you and healthy R with WAW or another if you can resolve the deep reluctance to look after you. Without resolution I am concerned. This is a great place for you in newcomers as you already have your tribe here.

What kind of medical help are you having? What sort of IC? Are you going GAL?

What are your goals? We can explore those too if you like.

I am concerned more about you than your M.

Hugs

V

[Vanilla]

Davide thanks for the encouragement.
Yeah Sleep is a huge deal when dealing with my anxiety.
I haven't mentioned it yet but I have totally fixed my sleeping schedule I used to stay up all night and sleep til noon and now I go to bed around 10pm and wake up at 6:30am which is a huge 180 for myself.
I am sober so the nyquil thing is not really a healthy option for me. I have been thinking about medication for depression/anxiety also but have not felt that I fully need it yet as upping my health regiment has been doing wonders so far for me, but it is not off the table if I start to slip. It is sort of a vicious cycle I get anxious about becoming depressed again...but anxiety is a cause for depression.
In your thread I mentioned wishing I had moved out instead...the big reason for that is that when this all began it was all about me and my WAW had a laundry list of complaints. I have since begun addressing all those complaints but along her journey it stopped being about her resentment about me and her "spiritual growth" and need to kill her ego etc. these are all good things for her and things which I believe could be done in the relationship... but because she moved out and severed her connection to her old life those changes and growth are viewed in context of being free.

This change on sleep is exactly the self care change I mean. It is excellent.

V

[Ste7e]

WOW V what an answer! Thank you so much for taking the time to get involved, this is the kind of insight I have been looking for. OK so WAW is where I started my journey, but the more I read about everything else and everyones sitchs over the last few months I started to question that. I am very happy to hear that neither my WAW of myself are MLC. The more informed I am the easier it is for me to move forward. There is a lot of love from my WAW to me (and me to her) and she is on a journey of her own which I hope will give her what she needs also. Obviously I wish we could be on this journey together but that is not in the cards. And her leaving was really the kick in the butt I needed to break out of my crippling depression and start to work on myself. We are both codependents and we were unitentionally wrecking havoc on one another because neither of us were working on ourselves. I can see I created a situation where I allowed her to enable me and she was more than willing to play that role. Not a healthy sitch.
It is interesting that you also bring up neglect as that is what my new Shrink said about my life, not just this R and the neglect is both internal and external. Let me give a little more background. I am an only child my parents D when I was 14, my F was the adult child of an alcoholic and though he didn't drink was a serial cheater, he had left a family to be with my M and is on W #3 now. My M also started having A in response. I was fully aware of all of this from childhood. Both were career obsessed and extremely intelligent PHD's. There was love for me but neglect. I ended up dropping out of school at 15 and living with friends at this young age and hanging out in Bars. I was a very hip little guy. My first R was for 5 years in my early 20's, after a couple years together I found out she was extremely sexually traumatized, she ended up becoming a heroine addict and we broke up. This really effected me and I began drinking heavily for 10 years. During this time I was a womanizing/cheating badass. I hung out with the toughest manly men I could find and played in bands alot of toxic masculinity. I ended up getting sober and in doing so neutered myself. I didn't want to be the bad guy I was anymore and became completely honest and loyal with everyone. I think I went too far with and really lost the balance of a necessary swagger because I was so afraid or guilty of who I once was. I some how managed to get two degrees through all this and had a career path I was going down. After my 1st year of sobriety I got in a 3 year relationship with a serious Alcoholic. She really abused me but I was addicted to the drama and her. I met my W immediately after this traumatic relationship and never dealt with what I had gone through. My W was amazing and my life instantly became good for 5 years. Then I burned out on job and found out about all the sick relatives who all ended up dying which just shot me into a very deep depression. Which culminated in my WAW departure.
So here I am now, I am currently seeing 2 shrinks, will eventually choose one. One is dealing with more childhood regression stuff and the other is more action oriented. This is helping me tremendously. As I said before I broke out of the depression. I have been going to Yoga 4-5 days a week and I have changed my diet (no sugar, no fried foods, portion control) I have lost 40 lbs in 3 months and am very close to my goal weight. I have been diligently working on creative projects. I have started playing shows again and am meeting with new guys to play with a couple times a week. Fixed my sleeping schedule. Going to 12 step meetings for dealing with alcoholics twice a week. Been reaching out to friends and hanging out alot. Been applying for jobs daily and going for interviews. And have been doing research on maybe starting a business with a couple friends. My GAL is seriously going to the point that my days a pretty filled. I also only watch an hour of tv at night now when I used to binge for 8 hours at a time. I have tackled almost all my 180's on my list. I also have read and ordered a bunch of books recommended on this forum.
Where I am at with my WAW at this point is that by going dark I have been able to focus on myself. She definately has the power to throw me for an emotional loop still and NC has helped to insulate me. I am learning detachment but it is very unnatural for me (probably everyone). I am still hopeful that WAW and I can Rec. and if she has been working on herself as much as I have and we can continue to do so there is hope. But I also know now that we will both be ok and even happy if that never happens. And yes I am willing to just be friends despite Sandi's advice. When WAW and I have spent time together in person over the last 3 months it has been good, we really do click as people which is what initally brought us together. I understand though that she is hesitant to trust my change is real (and it is just at the beginning for me too) because she saw me at my emotional worst.

[Davide]

Se7e,

You are an inspiration! Keep working it. I feel like we are somehow cosmic twins somehow on parallel paths.

Much love.

[Jim1234]

Steve, my thought is that once they have made the decision to file, a huge weight has been lifted off their shoulders, and they are more upbeat and positive. This might be what you are seeing in her texts, so be prepared to hear it when you get together. And if she does want to D, just like people have said on your thread, "I'm sorry you feel that way. I won't stop you. I feel differently, and won't help you either," or something along those lines.

Is she in an A? Who knows? But it doesn't really matter. Your reaction should be calm if it does come out.

[Vanilla]

Jim

That is a wayward attitude not a walkaway one.

Walkaways don't have a plan B and therefore giving up plan A often means severe fin and emotional penalty,

Ste7e I will think more on your response.

Would you be so good as to take the ACES HIGH test? Google and let me know your score.

You can say no V, it's ok I will not be offended.

V

[arsh18]

Hi Ste7e, just read up your entire thread. I am sorry you are going through this, I hear the pain you must be enduring it is obvious as I read the sitch. In my case, H has started D proceedings in less than 3 months of BD, no counselling, no physical separation just straight D process. You are going through one of the worst phases of life, the grieving here is no less than what one endures when their spouse unexpectedly dies. In here you also have to deal with rejection and abandonment additionally. So let yourself heal, I think you are on the right track seeing shrinks and getting help. If your W does not see the positives then let it be her loss. I will be reading up on your story often and please know I am offering my here support whenever you need it.

[Ste7e]

Thanks Arsh yeah same sitch

OK well that sucked
met with WAW she ended up texting today to see if I wanted to get something to eat when we met. Went to some terrible cheap grocery store dinner thing on her suggestion. I said "right on I am up to try new things"

Well I did a terrible job of listening I talked alot about job search stuff after she asked. There has been alot going on in that front for me so I have a lot for me to talk about. I was probably also a little nervous and had too much caffeine today also. I found it hard to make eye contact too oops. So maybe it all came across as trying to hard on my part. She talked a bit about going to our home town to go to a funeral of a friend of hers last week and I gave my condolensces. And she talked about some movies she had gone to see recently which I was actually thinking about going to see myself glad I didnt or I would have run into her there. I had also already seen the films in the past so we talked about them a bit. She asked me about some stuff I went to over the weekend which I dont know how she would have known about? She then suggested we go for a walk and she commented about how muscular my legs were looking (I intentionally wore clothes that showed off my physique and I was looking good) and that our yoga teacher (we go at different times)had told her that I had lost 35 lbs, I corrected her and said its 40 and that I was close to my goal weight. She told me about a mutual friend getting married...ironic.
On our walk she led into that she had begun working on filing and that I needed to sign something. This will be an amicable seperation so there isnt a need for lawyers yet. I said "I dont think D is the answer and that I understand that this is what you want and I will not stand in your way" she then went into some more D logistics. I responded that "I do not believe in D and that she will need to just file on her own as its will be non contested" she then said that I had to sign this thing or else it can never be filed. I said I would sign it and to send it over. She said we needed to split some belongings and wanted to make sure we on the same page. The situation is that she has left all her furniture at the house and besides the closets and one room which was hers you would never know that she had moved out. She volunteered to let me keep all the stuff until she moved again in a year from her Apt and needed it. She also wants to take one of the cats. I said that I didn't want her to take the cat but take the other cat...but the one she wants is the one she brought into the R so I said he is your cat what can I do but let you have him. She said something about money and I told her that I didnt have any and that I was in fact entitled to half hers but why would I take that. We walked a bit more and I stopped talking and it got very uncomfortable. She said she wants this to end on good terms so that we don't take this into being friends and if there was anything I wanted to talk about. I thought about it for a minute and said I don't think there is anything to say. I then repeated "I do not think D is the answer but that I understand that is what she wants and I will not get in her way". I then asked her if there was anything she wanted to talk about and she said no. We then walked the few remaining blocks back to our cars in silence I picked up the pace a bit and was in front of her in silence I guess I got COLD I kept thinking act as if at this point. We got back to the grocery store and she said she needed to use the bathroom. I said Goodbye in a kind of short way and she goodbye sort of dazed like it was for goodbye forever. After she went in I waked to my car but decided I needed a water and went back in and was in line when she left. She was pulling around as I walked out the store and she drove by me and I just kept walking to my car and came home to type this.

I dont know if I totally blew it tonight or did good? I did not get dragged into a fight. I did not respond in my usual way of needyness, needing answers or reasurrances, pleading, asking about an A, or saying ILY dont do this etc. I did not fight for the R beyond saying D is not the answer. But I also didn't listen too well in small talk she wasnt forthcoming really at all or validate but there wasn't much to validate. She was cold the whole time, and I got cold and put out at the end. Don't really know how you are supposed to take that conversation with a smile? That really felt like the death nail conversation. My M is over.
I feel so cheated so let down I never got a chance to make things right, what kind of person does that to someone they Love or loved? Where is any respect or acknowledgement of what we had?
I want more than anything to call her right now and tell her everything I am feeling and fight for this. But all I can do is stand right? Is there any hope at this point?

[Davide]

Ste7e,

I'm sorry to hear about that. It sounds like an incredibly tough night and tough conversation.

I wouldn't stress about what you shared with your wife or any of that. It sure sounds like she came in with the plan to advance the D and nothing you said was going to change her mind. I certainly wouldn't try to press her any more right now. She is not in a place where she is open to hearing it. Maybe that changes in the future, maybe it doesn't, but for now it surely won't work.

Remember all the work you are doing, the GAL, the IC, the job stuff, the workouts, etc... it is all for YOU. At this point, you need to let her go and keep focusing on all of that stuff because it is going to help you. Hang in there. I know this much feel like a gut punch, but you are strong and getting stronger.

[Vanilla]

Seems good to me, you closed down the D and R talks. You validated. You said D wasn't what you wanted.

You slowed it down.

Made no big gaffer.

V

[Ste7e]

Well I blew it and I called had an hour and a half talk
Went nowhere but I thought do a 180 dont be afraid and fight for the R and what I want I ended the conversation with that I stand for the M
But she was a brickwall and gave me nothing but D is happening

[Ste7e]

I felt that I couldnt just let my M go
And I wasnt feeling like anything I was doing was making any difference
NC didnt change anything
Maybe she just wanted the confrontation from me

[LoneWlf]

Ste7e,

Stay Strong, focus on you, stay positive. I just want to wish you words of encouragement. Stay well!

[Ste7e]

Man I am struggling with accepting that the OR is dead.
The talks last night just destroyed me.
I guess I had been and still am operating like she will eventually want Rec. which I don't think will ever happen.
I just keep hoping she will snap out of it because my wife is not the person I married or even the person she was 6 months ago. She acts like and talks like she has joined a cult or something.
I just don't understand.
I am in a lot of pain part of me thinks I should just pack up my things and move away to another town sell the house and go. I don't even have a job here or any real attachments at this point besides the house. I have just been staying here because I wanted W to come back. Where is me in that? She isn't coming back at least not to this. Is my leaving the ultimate 180.

[Davide]

Ste7e,

Right now you are understandably super emotional. You are processing a lot of emotions. Don't make any rash decisions. This is still very early. Your W is not interested in a R now, that is clear. That doesn't mean she won't be in 6 months or a year. But you can't control that, and worrying about it won't make your situation any better.

You just need to work on GAL. You need to get out and have fun with other people. You need to detach as much as you can so that you can take control back over your life and your emotions. You can do this!

[LH19]

. I don't even have a job here or any real attachments at this point besides the house.

I am guessing this is your problem dude. You entire life revolved around your W and it was too much pressure for her. A woman is attracted to a man who is his own person and she is an equal.

You got some serious work to do. Starting with obtaining employment. Then decide what kind of man you want to be and become it. You are young you have no kids you will be just fine. You got to do the work though.

[Ste7e]

But 6 months to a year from now I will be D ... hell in 2 months from now I will be D. Whats the point at the that stage.
I am at least going to get out of town for a couple days to clear my head and not do anything rash.
God I just feel like I so blew it last night by calling, I had to assert myself as I thought that maybe she wants me to fight for the R as I had been relatively passive up to that point and if I am not dealing with a WW the moving on approach wasn't working. Every tunnel feels cheeseless I just wish there was something I could actually do to get a result to stand on. I push she shuts down, I go NC she starts D paperwork. She hasn't given any of this the time for her to have a change of heart or miss me. And as I stand for the M she just doesn't care. I deserve a damn chance I deserve that she respects what we had to at least try. I know that is wishful thinking but isn't that how a rationale person would have handled this at least try?

[Ste7e]

I deserve RESPECT

[LH19]

God I just feel like I so blew it last night by calling, I had to assert myself as I thought that maybe she wants me to fight for the R as I had been relatively passive up to that point and if I am not dealing with a WW the moving on approach wasn't working.

You didn't blow it last night. Your M was dead prior to last night. No one interaction makes or breaks a R possibility unless you hit her or something.

You have to stop looking for a magic bullet that is gonna turn this thing around it just doesn't happen that way. Time and space and you making changes can do this but it will take a really long time.

As for your last comment, you don't deserve respect you earn respect. How can you earn her respect?

[Davide]

I get the feeling. I feel like I deserved better from my W as well. But we can't control them. We control ourselves, and if they act in a way that is unnaceptable to us we need to walk away.

Get out of town. Clear your head. That sounds like a great plan.

[Ste7e]

ok so I called W again to tell her I was going out of town for a couple days to clear my head.
Very different conversation today
I said that I would be willing to sign whatever she needed.
But that what I wanted was to honor what we had and be able to spend actual time together and do fun things which like we used to do and not talk about the D stuff or my job stuff when we do it.
She said that is what she wants to do to but needs the D so that we can do that.
She also said that she feels trapped and fearful that she is going to say something to me that I will retaliate in some way with in the D which is why she is pushing hard for the D so that it is behind us and that fear goes away.
I validated and said that that is never my intention and if that is coming across I apologize.
She also said that my call last night was traumatic as I was just emotionally spewing all over her and that alot of the things I was feeling was not about her but my own traumas and childhood.
And that she suggested that I should journal my emotions instead and that if I still have focused emotional things I wante dto talk about she would talk about them, but that she felt after I journaled i would see these emotions were not about her but about me.
She also acknowledged that I was hurting and she said that she is hurting too.
The big take aways for me are that first off she doesn't trust me and second that she feels trapped in M and also trapped in the D. I don't know what I am putting out there which makes her feel this way, and I also acknowledge that maybe that is all coming from inside her.
Is there possibility that she wants a R with me in the future but just can't handle the mental confines of M? Did the constructs of M make a good relationship bad?

[Ste7e]

As for your last comment, you don't deserve respect you earn respect. How can you earn her respect?

Yes you are right...I just don't know how to do this? In fact I don't know how to do this in any area of my life. When I think about it I get hung up on what it takes for to earn peoples respect and I get really overwhelmed and tired. Maybe I have some sort of low level depression running in me which defeats me before I even start on life.

[Ste7e]

how do I start a new thread as I think this one is at its max

[Ste7e]

Part 3

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2792085&#Post2792085