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Some more of my thoughts:

Yes you can keep talking to her family, but change your messaging from "Hey, she is doing this, help me keep her married to me." to "W is going through a tough period, please continue to love and support no matter what she decides."

Your goal, today and for the foreseeable future is to remove all pressure from your wife to stay. I guarantee you that if you pressure her to stay, have others put pressure on your W to stay, that it will push her out the door and in short order.

Remove all pressure. YOU HAVE TO LET HER GO TO GET HER BACK. All of this, as joejoe referred to, is going to feel counter intuitive. It is going to feel like the exact opposite of what you should be doing. But trust us, this approach gives you the best chance (no guarantees) of saving your marriage.

For some context about my sitch and how it turned around fairly quickly, please read my post at the top of this page:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2780850&page=10

Your sitch struck me as having some similarities with my situation. I will go back and read your initials posts more thoroughly though.


M(53), W(54),D(19)
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Okay just went back and read your sitch from beginning to end. Wow.

Lots of mistakes as I've mentioned. You've been letting your emotions control you. And yes you are still trying to control her AND the situation. You can't.

I found it ironic that you say in your second email "I know their are no magic words" after 2 emails full of nothing but words. So the first thing you need to do is STOP talking about your R with your W. If she brings it up, validate her feelings but don't prolong the discussion. Read the link Cadet sent you on validation. Study it and be ready to validate her feelings if and when she starts a R discussion.

Second, you have to detach. It is hard and difficult, but your constant pressure right now is only driving her further away.

REMEMBER: Believe nothing she says and only half of what she does.

Why she went to counseling with you is easy! You said you'd sign the D papers if she tried. Her going to counseling is her way of showing you she is "trying". Don't fall for it. In fact, you should tell her that you want to attend counseling alone for now. If she insists then you can let her come, but let it be her decision. Do not beg, or plead.

I like the text "Have a nice day". Small, NON MR discussions are what you want right now. I like to call them talk charges. Call her randomly with a 30-60 second story. Then end it with "anyway, just thought that was interesting. Got to go now, bye" and hangup. NO MR TALK!!!

You have to stop thinking that your sitch is not right for DBing. You are at a critical point. She is pushing for you to sign the D papers. My advice on this is to talk to a lawyer. D is a legal process. She is hoping you make it as easier for her as possible. Don't. Talk to a lawyer, usually the initial consultation is free. Next time signing the D papers comes up mention that you will need to discuss with your lawyer first. This will begin to pop her fantasy bubble about an "easy" divorce.

You said: "I think I married an exceptional woman, she clearly expects the best for herself. I've seen and read of people getting through way tougher situations, and I think she's just not going to lower the bar."

NOTE: She is not the same person you married. WAWs/WWs have a change in their thinking. If you try to apply the methods you used to originally win her, you will drive her away. Space. Time. Detachment. This is what she needs from you now. She knows you are against the D. STOP REMINDING HER OF THAT.

What are you doing for GAL? Seriously, your entire last 2-3 weeks has been centered around her. Going and getting her dad's dog to cheer her up?!? Seriously? Way too much time and effort. Making dinner just for her?!? Dude, grab your testicles back and be a little tougher. That doesn't mean you can't do nice things. "I made dinner for myself. I left the leftovers for you. Enjoy." YOU FIRST, and the nice thing was for her second. See? "I had to go to the store for some stuff I needed, so I picked you up the drink you like." You first, but then a nice thing for her. See?

Finally, on the sex. If her affair is only emotional at this point she was most likely thinking of him while doing you. Sorry if that hurts, but it is true. I am in the camp of "I'd rather her make love to me thinking of him, than to make love to him thinking of me." Some here disagree with that. However, I agree with her "it is just sex, don't read anything into it!"

Finally, watch how much she manipulates you. "If you sign the D papers I'll have sex with you." That is a level of manipulation that borders on evil. DO NOT PUT ANYTHING PAST HER AT THIS POINT. Let me repeat: BELIEVE NOTHING SHE SAYS AND ONLY HALF OF WHAT SHE DOES.

Your assignment: Let go, detach. Continue to 180 (stop doing the things that you feel got you here). GAL!! DO THIS! Start having a life outside of her and the house.

Finally, forgive yourself. Yes you have responsibility in this sitch, but you are the one willing to work on things. Remember that and stop beating yourself up!

Good luck and hang in there.


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Hello and welcome!

Originally Posted By: ovrrnbw

I drove around to a lot of bars and eventually found her at this guy's apartment a little after midnight. She didn't want to leave and it took me an hour to get her out of there. I didn't fight the guy or yell at her.


OK well having only read this so far, I'm already getting the sense that you are yet another "nice guy". After you read DB/ DR, read No More Mister Nice Guy and see if any of it rings true. Brother I would have told her not to come home except to get her crap out of MY house. She has lost respect for you and this kind of kowtowing is only making it worse.

Quote:
My phone was still on the call with her sister, who I had been talking to off and on that night. I guess I didn't hang up as I (literally) ran in there. I had also been talking to her mom and dad as well, so they knew I was trying to confront this.


Full STOP right there. Discontinue all conversations with friends and relatives about this. Talk to your therapist, talk it out here, talk to only those friends who have no ties to your W. But DO NOT talk to mutual friends and family as she will perceive that as you "rallying the troops" against her, and it will only drive her farther away. Plus it just looks desperate and needy on your part.

Quote:
A woman doesn't feel loved and respected at home and she looks elsewhere.


That may be true, but worse- she has ZERO respect for you as a man.

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We both ended back at our home in suburbs with her in the bedroom and me in the living room.


You've got to stop this kind of subservient behavior right away. YOU stay in the bedroom. YOU stay in the bed. It is the throne of the house. She can stay there with you, or she can sleep somewhere else, that's her choice. But YOU are NOT leaving.

Quote:
That lead to her kissing me, then sex.


Don't get your hopes up, she's just cake-eating. You've heard "have your cake and eat it too? WAS's often want to lead a double life of having a fling with OM while still having a home life. That is NOT commitment.

Quote:
I also went to drive by this guy's house and called him as well. I had been trying to catch up with the guy again to make it clear that I didn't want him talking to my wife.


Do not confront OM. The more you try to drive them apart the more they will get together, they will just go deeper undercover with their activities.

Quote:
but then she did decide to come to counseling with me for the second session which was the first time you met her.


Again, don't be hopeful. She just did that to cross it off her "things I tried to save the M but only proved it was over" list.

Quote:
She also tries to coerce me into signing it by telling me if I say yes that she will have sex with me.


AMAZING!!!!! Offers you sex for signing D papers? Wow, I have never heard that one before and I've been here a long time!

Quote:
How do I reconcile these things she wrote, her asking me to stay, and her other actions, with her saying she wants to divorce.


Welcome to WAS land! Up is down, left is right, right is wrong, wrong is good, etc. etc.

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I want to save my marriage and make my wife happy more than anything.


STOP ALL PRESSURE. No convos with her, no convos with her family, no convos with mutual friends. NO RELATIONSHIP TALKS, EVER.

When she speaks, you listen and validate. Nothing more. Don't explain/ reason/ bed/ plead/ negotiate, argue/ agree/ disagree.

BE A MAN. Work out, dress better, get a tan, be mysterious, quit pursuing her.

Read DB/ DR over and over again, you'll continue to learn new things each time you do. Don't mix a bunch of different approaches (very common mistake with newer people).

Good luck and keep posting.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

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Just caught up on the rest of the posts and see you got some great advice from JoeJoe and Steve. I ended up repeating some of what they said but hopefully that'll help drive the points home.

One thing I sense from your communications with your counselor is that right now you think there's some magic reset pad, and if only you push the right combination of buttons then everything will go back to normal. I'm sorry, but that is not how it works. What you had is dead and gone for good. As hard as it is to believe, it's over. Now that doesn't mean you won't recon, you very well might. But recon is all about a NEW relationship with her, not going back to what you had.

It's interesting that in your first post you said "My verbal abuse made 2 people who were the love of each other's lives go on the outs." and you have not said one more word about that. If you were verbally abusive then that is a HUGE problem. If your W is trying to escape an abusive relationship then you've got a LOT of work to do before you can earn her trust back. We're talking months and months of hard work.

Quote:
Can you offer any advice on getting wife to attend?


Yeah, don't. She will only go to "prove" it's over. Quit giving her ammunition!

Quote:
I think I screwed up Saturday night. I was in bed in the master, and wife wanted me to get out so her and her friend could sleep there. I made a petty argument into an hour long fight by not giving her what she wanted there. I feel like that ruined the weekend and was a step back. And now I feel like going to the lake with her dad was a major mistake, because even though it may not be wrong, she didn't like it. And I was worried that she wouldn't but her dad told me it was ok to do.


Quit worrying that every little thing will make her angry. She's much, much farther gone than you realize.

Quote:
I also hinted that'd I'd tell her friend about wife's affair, to which wife almost cried. I think this was a mistake - again, it would hurt her if I did tell someone.


Wow that's some ugly passive/aggressive stuff there. Read that book I mentioned.

Quote:
She still thinks I am trying to control her and even the score. She also thinks I am trying to make her look bad because of me telling her family.


She is right on both counts.

Quote:
I don't want to control her, I really would just like to be with her.


That IS control. Because that's what YOU want. What about what she wants? She doesn't want to be with you, so let her go and try to become the man she DOES want to be with.


Quote:
I ended up telling her that it is her house too and that I was going to give her some room and comfort of home tonight (this was on the advice of my best man from the wedding). I said I'd either stay at my dad's or stay in the front bedroom out of her way


= NOT BEING A MAN

Quote:
I mentioned to you talking to my friend "soandso", who is married to one of her friends that was in our wedding. I don't think she would like me doing that. But I think this friend may tell her to try.


(slaps forehead)

Quote:
For a while, I was trying to do something nice for her every day - is this too much?


That would have been great 6 months or a year ago. Now it just looks weak, and she'll think "too little too late".

Quote:
I did make her a card last week, but I haven't given it to her yet.


Write everything out in great detail, then burn it. DO NOT give it to her.

Quote:
I think I need to pour on the love this week


Nope.

Quote:
She always said in the past that she wants to feel needed in these type of situations - not ignored during a breakup.


Again, 6 months or a year ago maybe. Now? No.

Quote:
I was going to make her dinner tonight and just leave it there for her. And not be at the house when she gets home. Is this a bad idea?


Very.

Quote:
I read something called the "Last Resort Technique" by Michelle Weiner Davis that advised backing off to increase your chance of your spouse becoming more interested in you. She advises not pursuing or chasing and implies that doing so is "supplying your spouse with a reason" to leave. I don't think this is the remedy for my situation. To me that is just letting things die.


Wow, I can't believe you posted that here of all places. Look, DB'ing is counter-intuitive. Your mind is telling you to pursue her with all your heart, pour out love on her, show her how much you care. That is the WRONG thing to do. That works in a healthy relationship where the couple is recovering from a minor fight or argument. NOT when a spouse goes full-on WAS. She is NOT the person you knew anymore. A switch in her has flipped. What you think will work will do more harm than good. Embrace DB'ing. Calm yourself. Stop the panicky behavior, that's not attractive to her. You have loads of TIME, use it wisely.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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Everything AS said is spot on. Also, and this will become a common theme, STOP TRYING TO CONTROL HER!! The sooner you do that the sooner you might have some hope of her returning to the MR. Everything you've done or thought to do up to now is trying to control her or the situation. That is the best way to lose her and fast.

You cannot love her and pursue her into returning the MR. That is how you won her while dating years ago. But now you have a lot of baggage and that technique will no longer work.

Finally, even if you do everything you can, and do it right, she still might D you. You have to prepare yourself for that eventuality.

IF I sound like a broken record, then you are right.

Finally, try to get your mind off of things. That is what GAL is for. Dwelling on this 24/7 will cause you do more harm than good.


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Thanks for all the replies everyone. I did read each one.

Here's an update, the OM is back in the picture. I drove by his parents house early AM a couple days ago, apparently he stays there even though he has a place of his own. But he stopped staying there after I confronted it a month ago. WAW had her vehicle hidden around the block.

I decided I was going to not fight or argue. But I needed our SUV bc I decided [censored] this I'm going to get my fun car and go have some fun this weekend. So I swapped all the stuff and took our nice vehicle that she normally drives. And turned off my location on my phone so she can't eavesdrop. Eventually she came to see her car gone and mine there.

I didn't realize her wallet was still in there. She started calling a ton and texting a ton saying how she needed it. I gave 2 brief responses about how I'd get it back to her and she continued to call and text like crazy. I decided I didn't even want to see her so I dropped the wallet at her folks house in the middle of the day and let them know where it was. If I took it home to her I'd have to see her and that'd be a fight. Also I just thought screw it it's not my problem.

No contact since the brief text response a couple days ago. She tried calling yesterday morning and I ignored. I'm frustrated more than angry and upset and I am getting a life. Went out for Cinco and had a decent weekend. I don't know if I want to go home or stay away a couple more days. I will not utter the D word to her again .

I wish I didn't tell her sister and dad what happened Friday. I should have let theme find out on their own but I was freaking out. I do think I am getting to a spot mentally where i can stop freaking out or control it I mean. I am sleeping 8 hours again.

On the plus side she is still trying to hurt me, saying mean things. But I do think the nice gestures are really over.

Today is my bday...I hate bday too but this is the first one I actually wish we were celebrating.


H 34
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Originally Posted By: AnotherStander
Just caught up on the rest of the posts and see you got some great advice from JoeJoe and Steve. I ended up repeating some of what they said but hopefully that'll help drive the points home.

One thing I sense from your communications with your counselor is that right now you think there's some magic reset pad, and if only you push the right combination of buttons then everything will go back to normal. I'm sorry, but that is not how it works. What you had is dead and gone for good. As hard as it is to believe, it's over. Now that doesn't mean you won't recon, you very well might. But recon is all about a NEW relationship with her, not going back to what you had.

It's interesting that in your first post you said "My verbal abuse made 2 people who were the love of each other's lives go on the outs." and you have not said one more word about that. If you were verbally abusive then that is a HUGE problem. If your W is trying to escape an abusive relationship then you've got a LOT of work to do before you can earn her trust back. We're talking months and months of hard work.

Quote:
Can you offer any advice on getting wife to attend?


Yeah, don't. She will only go to "prove" it's over. Quit giving her ammunition!

Quote:
I think I screwed up Saturday night. I was in bed in the master, and wife wanted me to get out so her and her friend could sleep there. I made a petty argument into an hour long fight by not giving her what she wanted there. I feel like that ruined the weekend and was a step back. And now I feel like going to the lake with her dad was a major mistake, because even though it may not be wrong, she didn't like it. And I was worried that she wouldn't but her dad told me it was ok to do.


Quit worrying that every little thing will make her angry. She's much, much farther gone than you realize.

Quote:
I also hinted that'd I'd tell her friend about wife's affair, to which wife almost cried. I think this was a mistake - again, it would hurt her if I did tell someone.


Wow that's some ugly passive/aggressive stuff there. Read that book I mentioned.

Quote:
She still thinks I am trying to control her and even the score. She also thinks I am trying to make her look bad because of me telling her family.


She is right on both counts.

Quote:
I don't want to control her, I really would just like to be with her.


That IS control. Because that's what YOU want. What about what she wants? She doesn't want to be with you, so let her go and try to become the man she DOES want to be with.


Quote:
I ended up telling her that it is her house too and that I was going to give her some room and comfort of home tonight (this was on the advice of my best man from the wedding). I said I'd either stay at my dad's or stay in the front bedroom out of her way


= NOT BEING A MAN

Quote:
I mentioned to you talking to my friend "soandso", who is married to one of her friends that was in our wedding. I don't think she would like me doing that. But I think this friend may tell her to try.


(slaps forehead)

Quote:
For a while, I was trying to do something nice for her every day - is this too much?


That would have been great 6 months or a year ago. Now it just looks weak, and she'll think "too little too late".

Quote:
I did make her a card last week, but I haven't given it to her yet.


Write everything out in great detail, then burn it. DO NOT give it to her.

Quote:
I think I need to pour on the love this week


Nope.

Quote:
She always said in the past that she wants to feel needed in these type of situations - not ignored during a breakup.


Again, 6 months or a year ago maybe. Now? No.

Quote:
I was going to make her dinner tonight and just leave it there for her. And not be at the house when she gets home. Is this a bad idea?


Very.

Quote:
I read something called the "Last Resort Technique" by Michelle Weiner Davis that advised backing off to increase your chance of your spouse becoming more interested in you. She advises not pursuing or chasing and implies that doing so is "supplying your spouse with a reason" to leave. I don't think this is the remedy for my situation. To me that is just letting things die.


Wow, I can't believe you posted that here of all places. Look, DB'ing is counter-intuitive. Your mind is telling you to pursue her with all your heart, pour out love on her, show her how much you care. That is the WRONG thing to do. That works in a healthy relationship where the couple is recovering from a minor fight or argument. NOT when a spouse goes full-on WAS. She is NOT the person you knew anymore. A switch in her has flipped. What you think will work will do more harm than good. Embrace DB'ing. Calm yourself. Stop the panicky behavior, that's not attractive to her. You have loads of TIME, use it wisely.

Thankd for your response. I think this approach may be a little harsh in some areas. I am no expert. But giving her some space in the bedroom seems like an OK thing there. I don't want to kick her out of the bedroom or just because of her EA. I want to be with her still. So telling her to get her stuff and leave the house, just to prove my manliness, doesn't seem to be the right approach.

I've been speaking with my sister mainly, texting my therapist some. Spent the weekend on NC after her Friday freaking of 20+ calls and 20+ texts and then having her sister call me abut the wallet left in the car. I dropped it at her parents house after learning she was home bc I neededy space and I knew seeing her would cause a fight.

The GAL thing is starting to come along. I'm also rememberin some validating phrases so that I can just accept what is being said and stop pursuing. I realize this hasn't worked so my efforts there are ended. I am trying to ease the pressure.

She did call Saturday AM but I did not answer. No further calls since.


H 34
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BD 3/12/18
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Want to give another update to you all. I am implementing the LRT. No pursuit. I am GAL. Last night I went for a run and hung out with my mom. Not all MR talk either. Mainly explaining my mindset and and the LRT.

I got home at about 930 pm and WAW was sitting on the couch. I took a shower and went to bed. Didn't go back to her to talk. Had to get some shoes out of our master closet this am, and she asked me if I got her text. I hadn't seen it and said no. She didn't hear and asked why I was ignoring her. So I restated no, I'm just getting shoes and she asked about car keys. I answered briefly and shut the door as I did.

My mindset is definitely to get off of what doesn't work and to ease off the pressure. I am GAL every day. I may talk to her folks, but just to let them know what I'm doing (maybe not a good idea). I'd prefer they contact me though, so maybe it'll be a while before I have contact with them.

I am heading back out of town this weekend for some fun and fishing. I'm hoping her mental journey brings her back, but learning to give up trying to control that. My sister and marriage counselor have been big on helping me get my mind wrapped around my controlling tendencies.

Thanks to you all too. I know it tooK a bit of reading and rereading to absorb some info.


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It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
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Originally Posted By: ovrrnbw
Want to give another update to you all. I am implementing the LRT. No pursuit. I am GAL. Last night I went for a run and hung out with my mom. Not all MR talk either. Mainly explaining my mindset and and the LRT.

I got home at about 930 pm and WAW was sitting on the couch. I took a shower and went to bed. Didn't go back to her to talk. Had to get some shoes out of our master closet this am, and she asked me if I got her text. I hadn't seen it and said no. She didn't hear and asked why I was ignoring her. So I restated no, I'm just getting shoes and she asked about car keys. I answered briefly and shut the door as I did.

My mindset is definitely to get off of what doesn't work and to ease off the pressure. I am GAL every day. I may talk to her folks, but just to let them know what I'm doing (maybe not a good idea). I'd prefer they contact me though, so maybe it'll be a while before I have contact with them.

I am heading back out of town this weekend for some fun and fishing. I'm hoping her mental journey brings her back, but learning to give up trying to control that. My sister and marriage counselor have been big on helping me get my mind wrapped around my controlling tendencies.

Thanks to you all too. I know it tooK a bit of reading and rereading to absorb some info.


My only advice is to be careful to not be passive aggressive. Ignoring her, not giving her your full attention when she speaks, etc is not detachment. Detachment is listening. Validating. Listening. Validating. It gets monotonous. If you are bored while she is talking then you are probably doing it right, but don't let it show.

For those of us that have struggled with Nice Guy Syndrome in the past, it can be difficult to validate in non-passive aggressive ways. But to do detachment and validation right you have to avoid that at all costs.


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ovrrnbw Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Steve85
Originally Posted By: ovrrnbw
Want to give another update to you all. I am implementing the LRT. No pursuit. I am GAL. Last night I went for a run and hung out with my mom. Not all MR talk either. Mainly explaining my mindset and and the LRT.

I got home at about 930 pm and WAW was sitting on the couch. I took a shower and went to bed. Didn't go back to her to talk. Had to get some shoes out of our master closet this am, and she asked me if I got her text. I hadn't seen it and said no. She didn't hear and asked why I was ignoring her. So I restated no, I'm just getting shoes and she asked about car keys. I answered briefly and shut the door as I did.

My mindset is definitely to get off of what doesn't work and to ease off the pressure. I am GAL every day. I may talk to her folks, but just to let them know what I'm doing (maybe not a good idea). I'd prefer they contact me though, so maybe it'll be a while before I have contact with them.

I am heading back out of town this weekend for some fun and fishing. I'm hoping her mental journey brings her back, but learning to give up trying to control that. My sister and marriage counselor have been big on helping me get my mind wrapped around my controlling tendencies.

Thanks to you all too. I know it tooK a bit of reading and rereading to absorb some info.


My only advice is to be careful to not be passive aggressive. Ignoring her, not giving her your full attention when she speaks, etc is not detachment. Detachment is listening. Validating. Listening. Validating. It gets monotonous. If you are bored while she is talking then you are probably doing it right, but don't let it show.

For those of us that have struggled with Nice Guy Syndrome in the past, it can be difficult to validate in non-passive aggressive ways. But to do detachment and validation right you have to avoid that at all costs.

Thank you for that. I have been cautioned against doing that by my sister and am learning to be aware of it. I don't want to act like that at a critical time.


H 34
W 29
BD 3/12/18
Divorce Busted Spring 19

It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
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