Am I Piecing, or Pi$$ing in the wind???

[Clyde]

Link to old last post: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2777646&page=1

I know it did not reach 10 pages or 100 post on my last thread, but I did not want to continue it as the title would be a dead giveaway if the w was to see it, I worry she might be looking to find if I have been participating on a forum as such. Back in Feb., during an argument she mentioned something to the likes.

For those reasons along with the thought that I needed to take a break from posting and reading about all the tragic and hurtful experiences that you find here. I don't know that it was helping my frame of mind at that point. As things would not feel right in our M, I would find myself imagining the scenarios I was reading about here, playing out in our M. Starting lurking again the last few weeks, and as always, have picked up some valuable wisdom in the process.

I am doing good, started mountain biking again, (prior to kids, I rode daily), got all the kids on mountain bikes (they are loving it) and the w has a bike sitting waiting for her to join us. Also took up the hobby of Bonsai - I find it very calming, gratifying, and a big lesson in patience, lol. Been playing the guitar more even though the w does not condone...(I'll touch on that in a bit). I have drastically cut my hours working. I am more determined than ever to triumph in this life I have been blessed with, with or without the w by my side.

The w and I are okay... yes just okay, almost feel like I am in marital purgatory. When things are good - there good, even though the initial happiness the w was showing when we first R has worn off a bit. Intimacy is okay, not where it was prior to BD, and far from how I would like it. When a disagreement occurs, little is accomplished, we lack the tools necessary to navigate them effectively/w minimal unnecessary damage. I have gotten a lot better in these circumstances, but still have some wisdom to gain. The w is still not open to seek any type of counseling, at one point she seemed to be considering the idea of Retrouvaille, but has since shot down the idea... last time I mentioned it she gave a smart a$$ remark like "yeah, that sounds fun - sounds like I'll need a vacation after that!"

I have suspected hormones may be playing a part in all this, (after first BD and the w started acting differently, someone close to her that is older than us mentioned the possibility hormones might be playing in the scenario - her opinion on the whole sitch was that was likely the case.) Hormones has never been brought up to the w until a few weeks ago at which point she mentioned it. When it came up I suggested that she have it checked out, she refused saying that she would not put chemicals into her body. I said I understand, but having it checked out would at least let you know that something is in fact going on - doesn't mean you need to "put chemicals in your body". Nothing was said after that.

I still feel as though there is this block the w has when it comes to me. Its hard to explain but it is blatantly obvious...

For example, she is a massage therapist... we are going on month 6 of Reconcile, she gave me one massage (6 months ago) prior to R, even though I have asked, even though I have had a severe neck injury and back problems, my doctor has suggested I get weekly massages (She knows this). I massage her feet 4 -5 times a week for close to an hour at a time when she gets home from work. I've hinted a few times, I asked once to which her reply was (when does she have the time?), later that night she must have seen the absurdity in her remark - as we were going to bed she said something like, "You know what, you do need a massage - we'll make it happen." Needless to say, it never happened, I continued to give her foot massages but am staring to think why bother - spend that time doing something for me.

Another example is intimacy, its not where it was prior to BD, she does not initiate it, she shuts it down 60% of the time, and makes stupid comments like "I get there a few times within 5 minutes, you need to start hurrying up". We used to take our time and make love. She used to go out of her way to turn me on, its very seldom now. I have dropped hints, been romantic, candles - flowers, wine, etc, made sure the house was clean (not just once or twice - consistently) all to no avail.

Another example, during R talks and since R I have said time and time again, we need to get out together, date night if you will, dosen't happen. Finally 2 weeks ago, I brought it up again, told her we just need to do it. I lined up a babysitter, started looking for a show to go to, she said no to going to a show... said lets just go somewhere local, get a few drinks. As we were heading out, she said she wanted to be back before the kids go to bed, I said "thats in 2 hours, doesn't give us much time." She said she misses the kid's bed time a few times a week cause of work, doesn't want to miss it tonight. We went and enjoyed a few drinks, stayed out passed the kids bed time anyhow... she then picked a fight.... Yes - SHE picked a fight. I started to fall for it but pulled myself out of it... Somehow she brought up the "sister" and how she used to go to the PlayBoy mansion for there events, she explained that the "sister would pay $90 to submit an application to attend the events/parties and got chosen many times" my response was I am sure glad you never did that, the dynamics of our R would be a lot different if existent at all. She begun to defend the sister, I said what does it matter, I don't care about her and beyond that the PlayBoy mansion is no more, Hugh died! She then went on to mention local events that were organized in the same manner... mentioned the name of one and said the "lady's wear Teddys (lingerie) to it. What if I want to get all dolled up and go with them?" I responded, " I think you know the answer to that, I want no part of a m where that goes on." I put money on the table and told her I would meet her in the truck and walked out. On the way home she started to say, "see, you don't trust me going out with my friends". I stopped the truck and said "are you kidding me, you want to go out wearing a Teddy? When is the last time you wore one for me? Its been years! Even if you did wear one for me I am still not okay with you going out in one!" Her reply was, "I don't know what you are talking about... I don't even know what a Teddy is... I never said that". I replied I am done with this conversation, I'm not doing this." We went home, I journaled in a book I have, she fell asleep on the couch, later came to bed about 4 in the morning. Next day she apologized right away, (I was shocked, she never apologizes). She said she was being stupid and that there is no way she would ever go much less want to go to something like that. That night she came on to me and we had amazing sex, she went out of her way to turn me on...... So to the point of bringing this one up, after contemplating why she would pull such a stunt (blow up the good time we were having) the reason I keep going back to is that block she has towards me. I don't understand it.

[Accuray]

Hi Clyde,

I don't know your whole sitch, I just read the post above. In my case, I was piecing for a couple years and then things blew up again and ended.

Based on your description above, you've got a few things going on. For one, relationships reach an equilibrium. Its when each person knows their part, what's expected of them, who wants the relationship more, who wants sex more, etc. etc.

When you get into piecing, that equilibrium goes out the window because it was associated with your prior relationship, and for a time, its very uncomfortable as you seek to find a new equilibrium. Ideally, you'll land in a place that was much better than where you landed before. In my case, exW kept pulling us back to the prior equilibrium that originally she was unhappy with, but obviously she needed something from it.

When we reconciled, we agreed to do a certain number of things to invest in our relationship. After a month she announced unilaterally that she was going to stop doing a couple of them, then a month later she announced she was going to stop doing a couple more etc. until they had all been stripped away and we were right back where we were pre-BD. Each time I would push back she would convince me it wasn't necessary, she was in a better place now, blah blah blah.

It looks like, in your sitch, you have some of this going on where your new equilibrium has not been reached and you are both testing limits and trying to figure out how much territory you're each going to capture in your new land battle.

The second thing that screams through your post above is that W is holding most of the power in the relationship right now. She's "one up" and you are "one down". You're giving massages, she isn't. You're making plans, she's making excuses. You're extending invites and she's declining.

When things get too bad, like when she threatened to go to a teddy party and talked about the Playboy mansion, you pushed back and established a boundary, and she backed off and respected it.

The best thing that's going to help you navigate this phase is embracing conflict. There's a great book you should look up called "Rock the Boat".

Effectively it says this -- for a relationship to evolve and survive the test of time, both people in it need to be capable and willing to walk away from it, and each of you needs to believe that is the case.

When things happen that are not okay with you, you need to bring the issue to a head. Either she can agree with your request, she can offer a counter-proposal and negotiate, or you walk away.

If she doesn't believe you will walk away if she doesn't engage with you on this issue, then its not even worth having the conversation because you're effectively just begging her for something.

Forcing these points of conflict causes the relationship to evolve. If the relationship doesn't evolve, resentment will build up and you will inevitably gradually spin apart until things blow up anyway. It's rip of the bandaid or endure a death by 1000 cuts.

This may seem harsh or unreasonable, or like it devalues marriage, and obviously you can't make ultimatums any time anything happens that upsets you. The point, however, is that if something is repeatedly happening that is making you unhappy, you *will* inevitably get resentful. When you get resentful, you cannot be a good relationship partner, so conflict avoidance can't work.

You need to spend some time thinking about your non-negotiables. It sounds like you need some relationship counseling, it sounds like you need some recreational companionship, it sounds like you need some date nights, and it sounds like you need a good sex life.

Figure out what you really aren't willing to live without, and then tell her the way that things have been going isn't working for you. Spell out what you need, and let her respond. She needs to tell from your demeanor that you are serious as a heart attack and won't just accept the status quo.

If you're not ready to put all your chips in the middle you won't be able to win. I've traveled the road you're headed down and it doesn't end well my friend.

Acc

[Clyde]

Accuray,

Thanks for the advice, I agree there is a power struggle going on, one that I helped create.

I know you are unfamiliar with my sitch so i will touch base on exactly what I mean as I have been intending to write about this (in more detail than I have in the past) so that others can learn from my mistakes.

From the moment of BD I made all the wrong mistakes, pursued, pleaded etc, etc... I even made the declaration that my w would always be welcomed back - that I would continue to set a place mat at the table for her. I reminded her of this often until I finally started to grasp DB'ing, and even at that point I did not retract the statement. This no doubt was very empowering for the w.

First wake up call for the w during our separation - I reclaimed the master bedroom, cleaned, rearranged it, got some house plants in it, took her space in the closet to store my guitars, took pictures of her down (left the pics in the rest of the house for the kiddos sake). It did not take long for her to notice... one of the days when she was dropping the kids off she must of seen it walking down the hall from one of their rooms, I walked into the master bedroom and my w was sitting in on the edge of the bed just looking around the room, she looked lost and sad, I definitely think it was a reality blow.

Second wake up call, perhaps the most profound prior to R. She and I were having a R talk, she said something to the likes of she does not see how I could re-enter the MR with no resentment for all that happened. My response was something to the like of, "You know it is a lot to digest, and my feelings about it go up and down at times, I find the best way to look at it as something that is going to make me stronger. Yes I wish it did not happen, it is the hardest thing I've gone through in life, but it is and will make me stronger, and for that I've got to thank you." She looked at me with a raised eyebrow, I continued, "No seriously, thank you, I am much better having endured these tribulations, and while I'm not out of the woods yet, I'm not going to let this experience have anymore negative effects on me. I'm okay with it all, I always thought I would go through this life with you at my side, but I now see that may not happen, and I'm alright with that, I've accepted it." I could see the look of shock on her face.

Those to instances happened within the 3 weeks prior to reconcile.

Post reconcile (I journaled about this in a previous thread, but will recap as it seems fitting) the w threatened the r, saying that if did not stop talking about an issue (that should of had no bearing on the vitality of the r), that "I was going to ruin a good thing". I told her that I was not only ok ending the r, but would prefer it at this point, and this time there would be no place mat at the table for her. This hit her, she cried for the first time since BD, she was not herself. I engaged in several more pointless arguments/convos at that time which likely diluted what I said (thanks V, and others for helping me see this), but she did take notice I feel.

I almost restated it the other night in a firmer stance than which I did (when I told her "I want no part of a m where that goes on.") But I am trying to be careful not to constantly bring it up everytime a boundary gets crossed, I already stated it, don't want the words to be hollow.

After the argument about the Teddy parties and the night of amazing sex, I tried to initiate sex a few nights later, she shut it down rather cold. I've since not approached her for sex since and things have been rather cold around here. We have not been cuddling on the couch, no spooning at night, perhaps because I'm the one to always initiate those things...no foot massages,no flowers, I don't know if this is the right course for me to take, but right now I am not feeling it. Convo's are minimal, otherwise my demeanor around the house has been normal. Its been about 2 weeks of this.

[artista]

Your wife is not doing "the work." And you are not requiring her to do, "the work." When you decided to reconcile, did you have any "must haves?" Or were you simply so relieved to have her back that you allowed things/issues to be swept under the rug? Unless you two have a plan that you both are committed to, I don't see you as truly piecing... You are maintaining the status quo... There is no thriving in your relationship...

When my H allowed me to come back, he would never have put up with me behaving as your wife is currently behaving...

--artista

[NicoleR]

I totally did those things Artista talks about in her first paragraph when my husband returned the first time. What a mistake! There must be other books or marriage counseling or resources to help people who are piecing to get through it with more successful outcomes. DB's focus doesn't seem to be on the aftermath when couples reunite. That requires an extension of DB and there must be a good roadmap for it out there. Clyde I really wish and hope you can get through this difficult time and find a way to make you reconciliation sustainable.

[artista]

I have to clarify something... Nicole, you reminded me that my H and I had some false starts where he didn't require me to do the work... Not until our final attempt did he have some boundaries that he was serious about... And he was able to do that because he was not afraid of losing me... He knew he would be fine without me because he had truly let go...

[sandi2]

Second wake up call, perhaps the most profound prior to R. She and I were having a R talk, she said something to the likes of she does not see how I could re-enter the MR with no resentment for all that happened. My response was something to the like of, "You know it is a lot to digest, and my feelings about it go up and down at times, I find the best way to look at it as something that is going to make me stronger. Yes I wish it did not happen, it is the hardest thing I've gone through in life, but it is and will make me stronger, and for that I've got to thank you." She looked at me with a raised eyebrow, I continued, "No seriously, thank you, I am much better having endured these tribulations, and while I'm not out of the woods yet, I'm not going to let this experience have anymore negative effects on me. I'm okay with it all, I always thought I would go through this life with you at my side, but I now see that may not happen, and I'm alright with that, I've accepted it." I could see the look of shock on her face.

I don't know that that was a wake up call. It may have made the road back easy for her. I mean, why wouldn't it? But, easy isn't always the best way.

Frankly, I strongly disagree with the H thanking his W for her waywardness! I say this b/c if a bunch of LBH's see this and decide to start thanking their WW for cheating, lying, and tearing the family apart......they are going to be sadly disappointed in the outcome. If anything, it will be a big turn off, which will show up in the bedroom.

You pretty much took all responsibility off her back and put it all squarely on yourself. Why expect her to work when she thinks she's made you a better man?

BTW, the more you repeat some statement to a WW, the less she hears. I wish this was a point every LBH would grasp. Please stop restating things to her!

[Accuray]

So you got some good feedback Clyde, your fan base here seems to think you're not really piecing but are instead enjoying a temporary stay of execution -- that was the same thing I went through. It was bad, it got better for a while and appeared to be piecing, and then it all fell apart.

Hindsight being 20/20, I think you need to be more demanding and definitive about what *you* need for this marriage to be good (versus adequate) for you. If both of your needs are being met, and you know it, you won't be living looking over your shoulder for the next time this is going to come crumbling down. You'll be able to relax and truly enjoy your partnership.

As with many stages of DB, this probably means making things worse before they get better. For someone who has been through a lot of pain, that's a really tough proposition I know.

The great news here is that when she knows you're at a walkaway point, she pays attention.

Acc

[Clyde]

Your wife is not doing "the work." And you are not requiring her to do, "the work." When you decided to reconcile, did you have any "must haves?" Or were you simply so relieved to have her back that you allowed things/issues to be swept under the rug?

Arista,

Yes and no... I the night before she decided to move back home I was very clear about what I expected of her as far as the "sister" goes. (For those new to my sitch, the "sister" interfered in our M every opportunity she could, she is a sociopath and is as toxic as they come... my W always conducted herself differently when in her presence or at her ill advice.) I wrongly assumed the rest of the relationship details would fall back into place.

I totally did those things Artista talks about in her first paragraph when my husband returned the first time. What a mistake!

Spot on Nicole, its become quite evident in my sitch as you can see.

There must be other books or marriage counseling or resources to help people who are piecing to get through it with more successful outcomes. DB's focus doesn't seem to be on the aftermath when couples reunite. That requires an extension of DB and there must be a good roadmap for it out there. Clyde I really wish and hope you can get through this difficult time and find a way to make you reconciliation sustainable.

This forum has to be the most valuable/helpful resource I have come across in dealing with every stage of this roller coaster. Thank you for the well wishes!

I don't know that that was a wake up call. It may have made the road back easy for her. I mean, why wouldn't it? But, easy isn't always the best way.

Frankly, I strongly disagree with the H thanking his W for her waywardness! I say this b/c if a bunch of LBH's see this and decide to start thanking their WW for cheating, lying, and tearing the family apart......they are going to be sadly disappointed in the outcome. If anything, it will be a big turn off, which will show up in the bedroom.


BTW, the more you repeat some statement to a WW, the less she hears. I wish this was a point every LBH would grasp. Please stop restating things to her!

Sandi, I agree with you 100%, I only emboldened her and her actions by thanking her. Maybe it was NGS/ passive aggressiveness, its almost like I had to soften the blow of the final sentence/point I was making to her - "I always thought I would go through this life with you at my side, but I now see that may not happen, and I'm alright with that, I've accepted it." and while the preceding points (thanking her) did not help my cause in any way, the final point about being alright/accepting that our MR done stilled carried some weight, I could see the look in her face when I said it.

You pretty much took all responsibility off her back and put it all squarely on yourself. Why expect her to work when she thinks she's made you a better man?

Again, with the luxury of hind sight, and having felt like I am the only one putting in the work many time since R, I agree with you 100% Sandi

As far as restating things... it is one of the many things I would change in my actions going back to BD. Hopefully others can learn from my mistakes.

[Clyde]

I think you need to be more demanding and definitive about what *you* need for this marriage to be good (versus adequate) for you. If both of your needs are being met, and you know it, you won't be living looking over your shoulder for the next time this is going to come crumbling down. You'll be able to relax and truly enjoy your partnership.

As I mentioned a few post back, I stopped initiating everything, no foot massages, no cuddling, no flowers, no sex, I went about my business in the house otherwise normal. After close to 3 weeks she finally started to slowly ask me questions...

First was about cuddling, we were going to bed and I asked her to close the window a little as it was cold outside, she looked at me and said, "yeah I probably should, seeing as no one is going to keep me warm, since you don't cuddle me anymore." I told her that no one was stopping her from cuddling me. She came to bed and put her arm around me for a few minutes then rolled over, I then cuddled her for the rest of the night.

A few nights later she got home from work and put her legs up on me, she then said "I remember when I used to get foot massages every night." I asked her if she wanted one, she sarcastically said "oh no, thats ok". I proceeded to give her a foot massage anyhow. When I was done she gave me a kiss and hug and cuddled me on the couch for a while. We later went to bed and were intimate, She came to bed in the buff which is always the sign for sex, however I still had to initiate it.

Could this be the turn around????

The next day I casually said "Hey, how about tonight, instead of me giving you a foot massage, you give me a back massage?" It got a little awkward, she said something like "sure I can give you a back rub, its not like there is ever time to set up the table and give you a full on massage". I replied, "If you don't make time, there is never going to be time." and left the ball in her court.

A few nights later I approached her for sex, I got the good ole' "I"m too tired".

My massage never happened, nor much less even a back rub.

I went a day or two not saying much, not initiating anything. I finally flat out told her that sex needed to be more of a priority in our R, she started giving excuses, I started to debate the excuses for about 15 seconds and stopped myself, I simply told her "Bottom line, sex needs to be more of a priority, I don't like the way it is now - it is not how I see a healthy relationship, and don't want the rest of my life to be like this. To my surprise she agreed.

I also told her that I would really appreciate a massage from time to time, even if she was not a massage therapist, any compassionate person in a M would see there loved one stiff/soar and try to render some relief to them. Her answer was mediocre, saying "Sure, I'd love to give you a massage, it's just got to be before 9p.m., otherwise I am to beat." I see her point about being to beat, but did she really have to say that?

She seemed to be in a good mood after our talk, I was watching to see if she was going to be mad or quiet... she was not.

A few hours later we were sitting on the patio, she told me she was looking at booking a hotel for us at the end of the month, do I know of any shows going on then? (We were supposed to do this a few months back for my B-day but we both got sick along w/ the kiddos so it got cancelled, I figured that was the end of it.) I feel this is a good sign, thoughtful of her.

Later that night she came on to me and we had an amazing sex. She has not shut me down since our discussion, and has been showing more affection. She has yet to offer up a massage, not sure if I should just ask, or wait for her to offer.

[artista]

This does not seem like a plan for lasting changes. You'll have to put your foot down every few days. She has no fear in losing you because all she has to do is tweek this, manuever that, accommodate you in the slightest of ways, and you're satisfied for the time being... she is selfish... And yet, you rub her feet! And still, no back rub for you! If I were you, I would make an appointment for a massage, and NOT WITH HER!

[Clyde]

arista,

As frustrating and old as this is getting I find myself asking if I should be patient in this process, that's not to say I should compromise any of my boundaries. Nor do I want to constantly be restating my boundaries and needs.

Prior to what I feel is a MLC fueled by toxic influences, my W was extremely thoughtful, caring, and loving.

Since R, I have mentioned, showed my discontent with the intimacy issues, but never put my foot down like I did in our last convo, and in doing so that has not been a problem since (granted it is way to early to see if it will be a lasting change). As far as the massage goes, yeah I would like her to take the bull by the horns and just offer me one... yesterday I was having muscle spasms and told her about it/asked her to work on my neck/back. She was compassionate and said of course, do you want to do it right now, I said how about in 30 minutes, I need to make a few phone calls, unfortunately I had something come up on a job site and had to leave right away forfeiting my massage.

Anyhow back to my point... should I be more patient, and take note of the progress that has been made? She has come a long way in the last 6 months, and it is a 180 from her standpoint a year ago... not to mention it is the complete opposite of what her toxic friends are likely telling her to do, (thankfully her communications w/them has been minimal- to my delightful surprise). As mentioned, I did make the "road back home" too easy of a road, definitely a mistake for someone who acted in the way she did when tearing our M apart. But now that she is back, that work still needs to be done, I have detached even more since R, I know she has noticed and understands that I no longer fear our M ending. I am reading DB again, seeing what tips I can get, I re-read my entire thread which helped, (a lot of the great advice I got along the way makes even more sense now being further down the road and having the luxury of hindsight).

Like I mentioned previously, I feel like at times there is a block with her when it comes to me. I don't know if it her own passive aggressiveness, a feeling of resentment, power struggle, friends influences, or just plain selfishness, whatever the case it is not conducive for a healthy M, I don't know what the answer is other than to be clear and straight forward, the big question is how to respond when that gets violated/discounted.

I read the writings of "Al Turtle" per V's advice, It was very helpful... I would highly recommend it to all.

[Clyde]

The frustration continues to mount... the latest episode:

D13 has been grounded for close to 7 weeks, she has been acting out around the house - being disrespectful to W & I, verbally abusive to her younger brothers, pretty much doing everything she knows she should not do. The normal consequence for these actions would be no tv, early bed time, phone taken away, no internet etc... non of which seemed to have an effect, after months of these consequences not being effective W and I figured out why, D13 had a acess to internet, emails, etc. via a device hidden in her room, so when she would get in trouble it was no big deal to her, she would just go hide in her room and surf the net. This is bad enough as it is but is much worse in my D13's case... she has had several infractions when it comes to her internet use. First being about 18!months ago, she started to use chat rooms to communicate w/ her friends in order to avoid being monitored at school and home, upon finding this out I dug deeper to figure out what needed to be hidden, we were fairly lucky as much of it was innocent stuff most 7th graders go through... tall tales, trying to sound older than she was and so forth... I found one correspondence both amusing and relieving, she was telling a friend about a boy in class that has tried "both pot and weed". Moving forward from that incident D13 was no longer allowed on the internet w/out us in the room. This latest occurrence is the 3rd time since that we have found her sneaking on the internet via a device hidden I her room. To compound matters D13's BF just got busted for sending naked pictures of herself to guys, (W was told this by D13's BF's Mom). Prior to W and I separating we put D13 in counseling to help her deal w/ all that was going on at home, we also asked the C to discuss this w/ D13. When D13 turned 13 she got her first phone, however internet was disabled and all text were mirrored to my phone.

This being the 3rd time D13 has done this W and I agreed that the consequences needed to be severe... we told D13 she was grounded until her actions are consistently improved, we even went as far as taking the door off her room. D13 has had a heck of a time getting ungrounded, her behavior actually got worse. Given that, we have been trying different approaches. Both W and I have taken D13 out for 1 on 1 outings even though she is grounded, this had little effect on her attitude. A week ago I told her that if she could go 2 days with out getting in trouble she could get off being grounded, she blew that chance after her 5th warning the first night (bullying little brothers, lying, rolling eyes when being warned about it so forth). I know much of this goes with the territory of being a teenager, but there is a complete disregard for anything W and I say, and given that she is constantly gravitating to the internet, what her friends are doing while on the internet, I do not want to compromise any more than I already have on the terms of her restriction, W has been in complete agreement with me til the other day.

So the W's "sister" was having a b-day party for her nephew, W had to work (I have not seen the "sister" since she made the false call to the police about me) so the "sister" wanted to take my D13 for the night so she could go to the party. My response was no she is grounded, W disagreed w/ me, said that is family she should not miss it. I did not go into the fact that they are not family, only stuck to the fact that D13 was grounded. D13 then comes out to my shop and ask what she can do to get ungrounded so that she can go, (W obviously told her about the invite), I told D13 she had her chance a few days ago, its to late for tonight's outing but that she should start putting in the work so that she does not have to miss anything else fun. D13 continued to push it all day, debating w/ me why she should not be grounded, saying that "Mom says I've been good enough to go". Away from D13 I approached W, said "I don't know what is going on, I feel like D13 is trying to manipulate the situation/us. She says you think she should be able to go." W responds, "I do think she should be able to go". I pointed out the this is the first time D13 has shown any discontent w/ being grounded, maybe this will sink in and be the catalyst for her turning her behavior around, but more importantly... W and I need to be a united front when it comes to our stances, not doing so is going to create major problems. W told me "I'm not going to lie to her". I responded "I know that you know better, you took child development and child psychology classes back in the day!" This whole convo I kept an even keel, trying to stay on track. W starts gritting her teeth and raising her voice, tells me "I'm not going to talk about this right now, I'm going to get ready for work". I responded, "we have been on the same page about her restriction, I feel that this is yet another Instance were your "sister" comes into the picture and all logic and reason goes out the door. There is more than enough time to discuss this before work, you are just choosing not to, but if you are going to grit your teeth and raise your voice then I am done with this convo for now.

[Clyde]

It has been 6 days since the party my D13 missed... and low and behold her behavior improved dramatically, her restriction was lifted last night, and providing she keeps up the good behavior she will be able to get her phone back in a week. Clearly missing the party did have an impact on her attitude.

[Clyde]

Since the day of the party my wife and I have not communicated much, I spoke with her yesterday, mentioned that D13's behavior has been good and that I think it is a good time to lift the restriction... what were her thoughts? W agreed.

I then brought up the point that it is crucial that we are a united front when it comes to the kids. Her response was, "I agree, but when I feel that she is missing out on something she should not, then I am going to say something."

Me: "you just contradicted yourself, we are either a united front or we are not, there can not be exceptions."
W: "We'll they are family, she would be able to go... you would of let her go if it was your nephew!"

I again refrained from bringing up the obvious fact that these people are not family.

Me: "No, as a matter of fact I would not of let her go... if you, I and the rest of the kids were all going as a family unit it would be a whole different scenario. But you wanted her to go alone, to spend the whole day/night with your "sister" even though the party is only an hour or 2 long... D13 has proven we can not trust her at the moment, and if there is any where that her trust and decision making skills needs to be rock solid, it would be there, when she is hanging out w/ your "sister".

No Comment from the W

Me: "Back to the point now, we need to be a united front, no exceptions... would you agree?"
W: "I never told her that she should be able to go, when she asked me if her behavior was better I told her yes, but I never told her I thought she should be able to go, I told her to go talk to you."

W is lying, changing her story as she see's there is no way to be right on her previous stance.

Me: "Thats not what you said the other day, I came up to you and said "Whats going on, Is D13 trying to manipulate us?" If at that point you had answered like you just did, the convo would of went a whole lot different. But you didn't you told me that you were telling her she should be able to go."
W: "I never told her I thought she should be able to go!"
Me: "okay, well I know what I heard but arguing that at this point is only going to detract from the main point, we need to be united in our stance when it comes to the kids. Do you agree?"
W: " I agree"

At that point I had to go as I was in the school parking lot and my S7 had just gotten out of class. I was hoping we would continue the convo at home but it went no further, I felt like I should leave it in her hands to bring up, but she didn't. Instead we went on not saying much the rest of the day into today.

An hour ago I asked her, "Anything you want to talk about"

W: "No"
Me: "So are we just going to continue to barely acknowledge one another? Seems to me like there are some things that need to be discussed."
W: "I don't have anything to talk about"

I did not pursue it any further, as much as I am hating the vibe around here, as much as I know that talking about it in a constructive matter could lead to resolve, I think it would be pursuing at this point, and not only do I have no desire to pursue her at this point, I have vivid memories what happened last time I tried to "talk things out" prior to separation. Not to mention, she is clearly showing that she will lie about things she previously said... whether it be an hour ago, a few days ago..., whenever, so whats the point! (she lied a few weeks ago saying she did not know what a teddy is 30 minutes after bringing up teddy parties, granted she apologized the next day).

Is the fact that she is having to lie about what she says resonating in her mind, is it making an impression to where she is going to think things through before saying them, will she start reflecting on her stances rather than having to be right all the time? Do I have the patience to find out? At what point is it a lost cause?

It is definitely a daily battle, I love this W. I tell myself recon is hard, buckle up! I laugh at one of my post previously made right after she moved back home... I was asking the forum if I should give her the DB book to read, and said something like "I hope my W will someday partake in this forum, sharing her thoughts and what her reasonings were through this process" (AS quickly set me straight on that idea - thanks), but anyway - I say I laugh because of how naive about this process, thinking my W sanity was instantaneously restored.

[Clyde]

Some more journaling.......

My work situation has been quite bleak... I had three big contracts get severely delayed do to permit issues. That instantly put me in a bind and left me scrambling. Mortgage is 2 1/2 months late, electricity got shut off 2 weeks ago as W made a payment arrangement (I did not know about) that she did not follow through on. At that point the electricity company demanded that he bill be brought completely current ($850) + they wanted another $300 deposit as our credit w/ them was no good in order to get the elec turned back on. I had no money to my name, asked the W what she had and she said only $400. I managed to get the bill payed by using that $400 and 5 different credit cards I have for my business, (they are all maxed out so I had to charge different portions on all 5 to make up the difference), W was right there when I was doing this. I'm currently rushing to get a small job completed so the I can pay at least 1 month of the mortgage (trying to avoid going 3 months late as foreclosure becomes a risk!). This is the first time I have ever been late on the mortgage.

Been pretty cold between W and I, quite aggravating as she was getting more talkative, looked like the last disagreement would be swept under the carpet only to rear its head again given there was no mutual resolve truly reached. This has been the classic way the W deals w/ things when it comes to the "sister"... argue, no attempt to see my point of view, leaving the door open for the same situation to unfold again another day.

W got into bad car accident sunday (luckily no serious injuries), I rushed to the scene and immediately hugged her upon arriving. I could not figure out if it was the accident or the actual hug that restarted affectionate touches between W and I, (since last disagreement there has been none), anyhow that night we cuddled and were affectionate as if all was ok. when we got home I immediately called the insurance company and dealt w/ all the details so that the W could lay down and rest as she was sore from the accident.

Next day the W had planned on taking D13 out to shop for 2 dresses for a school dance and 8th grade promotion (both are happening this week so delaying the shopping was not an option). When we had talked about that day the plan was that I was going to work, W would handle school runs and do the dress shopping in between them. I'm in the shop and she comes out to ask me if I could do the morning school run (kids are on transfers - school runs take about 45 min round trip). I didn't feel like I had the time but agreed anyhow. When I got home the W and D13 left to go shopping. I mean while got bombarded by calls from the insurance companies, rental car, etc. I was on the phone for close to 2 hours straight. At that point my work day was pretty much shot, as the insurance company was recommending that I get the W truck to the auto body shop right away as not doing so may cause us to miss out on the only 5 seater rental for the next 5 days. Body shop/rental shop was 35 minute drive one way.

I called the W to see how shopping was going (maybe if they were close to done W could deal w/ it so I could get back to work)... mind you it is 2 hours after she had left. W tells me the are just getting to the store, that they stopped to pick up her "sister". At that point I realized not only can she not deal w/ the drop off of her truck/ pick up rental, but that she wouldn't be able to do the afternoon school run as planned. I made arrangements to have S7 picked up and proceeded to take the truck to the shop. Since W was not available to pick me up from body shop, I had to wait close to an hour for the rental place to come get me.

Meanwhile W is shopping, only text from her was asking if I was able to get a rental. I picked up my boys on my way home. got home and played some soccer w/ them, around 5 I call W to see if she was going to be home for dinner (we usually eat around 5 - 5:30). W says "no we ate, we are just leaving the last store, I have to drop my "sister" off, if you want I can pick you and the boys up something on the way home, there might be some left overs in the fridge too. I'll call you when I leave my "sisters" to see if you guys want anything". This was 5p.m.

I already know by the lack of communication between W and I that day and the fact that she is w? the "sister" that I should not count on her getting us dinner so I made us dinner.

7:15p.m. w/ and D13 pull up, no call to see if we want anything like she said she was going to do.

D13 walks in wearing high heels that are not appropriate for 13Y.O. I ask if she had fun, made no mention on the heels. I did not say anything to W as she walks in, she makes no effort to say anything to me. A few minutes later she approaches me in our room and ask why I am being stand offish. I replied "I am not, you could of initiated the hello. But since you are asking, I am annoyed at the lack of communication today, on top of that I had no idea dress shopping was going to be an all day outing. You know I need to get this job do done so that I can pay the mortgage, instead i was dealing w/ the truck/rental/ins companies picking the boys."

W: "We went all over the place looking for dresses, it was hard work!"
M: "Well you killed 2 hours going to the "sisters" first, but that is besides the point, it would of been nice to know if I was going to be able to get back to work at some point today, maybe planned dinner for boy's and I etc."
W: " f@%& you, you are so insecure.
M: "No, its called common courtesy, should of known it was going to go out the window when the "sister" got involved!
W: "f@%& you.

I walked off, no sense in continuing at that point.

[Clyde]

Back too our financial sitch... during the separation/custody agreement we made in court we agreed that the W would claim S7 as her dependent. Tax time rolled around after our Recon, we tells me she is going to get her taxes done...

M: "Are we doing them separate? We should have the accountant look at it to make sure we are getting the best outcome."
W: "No, I think we should do them separate, after all that is the court order."
M: "Ok, if thats how you want to do it - then so be it." You can still send them to my accountant and he can do them separately."
W: "No, thats ok.

W ends up doing them and has $5200 coming back to her. She got the return over a month ago, (I found an atm receipt in her truck yesterday")but she has told me otherwise. Meanwhile the elec got shut off, at which point she claimed to only have $400 to put to it, mortgage is late and so forth. I did not tell her I knew about the money being in her account.

This a.m. she tells me that if I am going to be insecure, then we are done.

M: "It has nothing to do w/ insecurity, but if you are willing to be done over it then so it is. How do you want to move forward from here?"
W: "It is to insecurity"
M: "I don't see what arguing is going to do at this point, why don'y you go ask someone neutral to our sitch what their opinion is."
W: "It is, you should go to counseling and get it figured out."
M: "I've been post separation, you have not, why don't you go?
W: "Sure, get the mortgage current then you can pay for my counseling"
M: " Why do I have to pay for it, why don't we take some of that tax return you should be getting any day and attend a retrouvaille weekend together?"
W: "That money is for school clothes and stuff"
M: "Thats a lot of school clothes, I bet we could get the school clothes, pay for retrouvaille, and bring the mortgage pretty damn close to current. As a matter of fact I found an IRS website that allows you to track your return, why don't we see when it is coming so that we can get some of this stuff figured out, it would be a big weight off my chest knowing we are not in danger of foreclosure."
W: "No, thats ok."
M: "Does that mean you do not want to help me w/ the mortgage?"
W: "No"
M: "you got it already didn't you?"
W: "Yeah, a few days ago."
M: "Thats a lie, I am certain about it, one of many."

I left for an hour or two, nothin has been said since.

[Clyde]

To be clear....

Above when I asked her if she was going to help w/ the mortgage, her answer was no, she is not going to help.

[joejoe1]

Clyde,

You W still seem WW. She is highly selfish. You are killing yourself to try and save your M. How about you start saving yourself to save the M.

Your M is late. Not having home not only affects your W but your whole family. Its time to start saving yourself and detaching. Your W is seeming very toxic at the moment. She wont help with any bills, she's not communicating, and she is not even trying to understand or care about the situation you'll are in. You told her how you felt about her sister and she don't care.

IMHO distance is what you need now.

[Clyde]

Thanks for the reply joejoe,

That is exactly my plan of action moving forward (to save myself). I'm exhausted, nothing left to give. She has told about 4 or 5 more lies this a.m. trying to cover for the tax return lie. There is nothing if there is not trust... there is nothing if she is constantly going to lie, all the other dynamics fall second to that.

[EastTN]

Remember "moral victories are not victories?" You're still trying to win. You will not win by proving that she's lying to you. At best, you will simply train her to be a better liar. You will not achieve anything at all by being "right" here. You will undermine your goals by doing so.

What are your goals? Are your actions helping you achieve those goals?

[Clyde]

Hello East

Remember "moral victories are not victories?" You're still trying to win. You will not win by proving that she's lying to you. At best, you will simply train her to be a better liar. You will not achieve anything at all by being "right" here. You will undermine your goals by doing so.

That quote has been imbedded in my head through out this, that being said, at the moment I am 99% sure I am over this M, so while I may not "win", I'm not sure there is anything to lose by drawing this line. To many lies, not to mention the last time she stashed cash (by stealing it from me) she was preparing to leave... and for those of you not familiar w/ my sitch, I'll bring you up to speed - she and her "sister" tried to have me arrested several times for false accusations, when that failed she filed a bogus TRO that got thrown out of the courts 4 days after being served. So this lie in particular is a sensitive subject.

She is somewhat scrambling, trying to explain/debate/argue/lie the last few disagreements away, if she really wants to leave why is she doing that (she said she was done w/ M when I tried to talk to her about her lack of consideration the other day). Once she said that I said fine so be it, other than bringing up the tax return I have not engaged. I know this is a surprise to her, last go round, prior to seperation I was constantly trying to talk things out, not only do I know that is not going to work (having done it once), I do not want to dilute the reasons she is ending the M, the line she is drawing in the sand. She is a master at diverting convos, taking the train off the tracks, if I engaged in these convos w/ her it would sow 10 other things for her to justify her actions. So as she contemplates wether or not to get serious about working on our M or calling it quits she only has these two subjects to contemplate, all that being said... again I do not know if I'm up for it. East, your post has slowed me for the first time in days and encouraged me to re-evaluate my stance, I will do so as much is on the line.

I have been detaching for months, I see her try at times, then completely drop the ball. I've touched base in the last 20 or few post how my needs are not getting met. I am an attractive guy, I've always worked out - been muscular and in great shape, it's been years since she has complimented me on my looks (I tell her how beautiful she is a few times a week), I play guitar and sing any chance I get, I've never heard her say "hey that sounded good" (ok... maybe I just $uck, lol). During separation I went to a few concerts/shows, on more than one occasion I was approached by women interested in me, and you know what - it felt pretty damn good, it's been a while since the W made me feel like that. I've found myself thinking - wow I see how affairs happen... here I am giving my all to this women, how long to I go on banking on the potential of this relationship. I think you get the point, but to be clear, I would never have an affair.

What are your goals? Are your actions helping you achieve those goals?

Even though I may be at a crossroad on my journey, as I go over my goals they are much the same.

Be the best father I can be, take in every moment I am blessed with while w/ my kids and make the most of it.

Continue to grow mentally and spiritually, be the man only a fool would leave. Continue to address my shortcomings and flaws, be more patient, communicate better, work on control issues.

GAL...play more guitar, mountain bike, go to shows, and something I have been putting off for years but hope to start soon luthiering (make guitars!)

[Gordie]

Clyde

I have been rooting for you from the sidelines for a long time

And right now I agree you are pissing in the wind

My onbservations

You are still trying to act like you are married

Complimenting her

Giving foot rubs

Taking care of her car accident

Wanting her to care more about your opinion than the sister

Wanting to be a united front with daughter

Arguing and trying to convince her you are right

Is this working



I agree with East

The counterintuitive part of d b

Is that you have to let go

If she wants to go out with sister every night let her

If she wants to go to teddy parties let her

You cannot control her

But you can control you

She knows you would not want her to go to a teddy party

She is pushing your buttons

I think fewer words and more actions might get you farther

She does like it when you get mad

You frequently have sex afterwards

I think the confidence and passion excites her

The next time you have work to finish and she asks you to do something

Just say no I cannot do that for you today

Or better yet ignore her phone call or text message

And then go do your work

Right now she says jump and you say how high

And then she treats you disrespectfully

She does not thank you

She only thinks of herself

While she is only thinking of herself

You cannot be piecing

[AnotherStander]

Clyde, very sorry you're going through this. I would definitely not call this piecing, what it sounds like in every one of your posts in this thread is a marriage on the brink of failing. I can't decide who is poised to drop the bomb, it could be either you or your wife frankly. What the two of you are doing is clearly not working. Lots of resentment and anger building. Lots of passive/aggressive behavior from both of you. Time to get back to your DB'ing basics. Read the book again. You can't change her behavior, but you CAN change your behavior and THAT can change her behavior. And if she doesn't change her behavior, then there need to be repercussions.

I think you are pursuing her far too aggressively given her tepid involvement in the M. She keeps blowing off her marital responsibilities and you keep rescuing her. All that is doing is making her lose respect for you. So what do you do, well you pull back, give her time and space, get out and GAL. Leave her to figure her crap out while you go on with a great life.

And for heaven's sake, stop the hour-long foot rubs nearly every day. Meanwhile she's a massage therapist that won't touch you. ARE YOU SERIOUS??? I'm officially taking away your man-card until you earn it back, LOL!

And can you clarify something, you are 3 months behind on your mortgage and worried about foreclosure and just dealt with your electricity getting shut off, and your W takes D on a day-long shopping trip for TWO new dresses and shoes and such for a.... school dance? Am I really reading that right? I think you need to give some serious thoughts to what your priorities are and get your life back on track. All these attempts to appease your W are just killing you and your M. Time to man up!

[Clyde]

Clyde

I have been rooting for you from the sidelines for a long time

Thanks Gordie, much appreciated!

Is this working

No

I agree with East

The counterintuitive part of d b

Is that you have to let go

If she wants to go out with sister every night let her

If she wants to go to teddy parties let her

You cannot control her

But you can control you

She knows you would not want her to go to a teddy party

She is pushing your buttons

I think fewer words and more actions might get you farther

I am definitely a man of few words lately, I do not even acknowledge her when she walks in the room the past few days... this may not be good for DB'ing, but I'm not in the mood for masking my feelings towards her. Perhaps a little time, reflection, and I'll come around. I know I let it get this far, and that is my culpability in it.

The other day was D13's 8th grade dance, I was looking forward to seeing her off to the dance, getting her a wrist corsage, taking a picture or two with her. The morning of the dance, W told me that rather than getting ready at our house, she was taking D13 to the "sister's" house to get ready, and that I would not see her before the dance.
I told my W that my plans for pictures, corsage etc., told her again that I would of liked to of been kept in the loop as to these plans. W started coming up w/ reasons as to why I was wrong in my stance... I shut her down, I told her "No, I told you how I feel, I'm not going to argue about it, I can't argue anymore, it goes nowhere, I'm exhausted w/ all the BS, please, just let me be - I won't do it!"

She does like it when you get mad

You frequently have sex afterwards

I think the confidence and passion excites her

You might be right on this, I never looked at it from that angle

The next time you have work to finish and she asks you to do something

Just say no I cannot do that for you today

Or better yet ignore her phone call or text message

And then go do your work

That is my plan from here on out, yesterday morning she asked me what was going on with her truck and the insurance company, I told her, "I don't know, you should probably call them and find out." and I walked out of the room.

Right now she says jump and you say how high

And then she treats you disrespectfully

She does not thank you

She only thinks of herself

While she is only thinking of herself

You cannot be piecing

Spot on, I've tried to convince myself otherwise, I thought maybe she would show her appreciation and reciprocate, I was wrong.

[Clyde]

Clyde, very sorry you're going through this. I would definitely not call this piecing, what it sounds like in every one of your posts in this thread is a marriage on the brink of failing. I can't decide who is poised to drop the bomb, it could be either you or your wife frankly.

AS,

Thanks for both the condolences and advice. You are right about this not being piecing, along w/ either of us being poised to drop the bomb, as a mater of fact, rather than "pissing in the wind", my next thread might be called "pissing on the tombstone of my marriage".

What the two of you are doing is clearly not working. Lots of resentment and anger building. Lots of passive/aggressive behavior from both of you.

Please, if you don't mind, can you give me some examples of my passive/aggressive behavior (or any other ways I may be sabotaging our M). Maybe I am being one sided.

Time to get back to your DB'ing basics. Read the book again. You can't change her behavior, but you CAN change your behavior and THAT can change her behavior.

I Started reading DR again few weeks ago, I kinda sidelined it for a bit as I started reading NMMNG again, I'm really taking my time going through NMMNG this go round, examining how it relates to me and my NGS.

And if she doesn't change her behavior, then there need to be repercussions..

I don't know brother, I thought I was at the repercussions part already, sounds like you and a few others might think I am jumping the gun on it, you have all given me more than enough reason to pause and reconsider as I really value all of your guy's points of view. And from the outside, perhaps it is more clear.

I think you are pursuing her far too aggressively given her tepid involvement in the M. She keeps blowing off her marital responsibilities and you keep rescuing her. All that is doing is making her lose respect for you. So what do you do, well you pull back, give her time and space, get out and GAL. Leave her to figure her crap out while you go on with a great life.

I agree with you about the lack of respect, her tepid involvement, I have pulled back, and plan to continue, as you have read I am finding it hard to be cordial to her, perhaps that is something I need to address. The other complicated part is our financial sitch, I could use her help, and at this point in the dilemma, that requires R talk. As far as GAL, I continue to ramp it up every given opportunity.

And for heaven's sake, stop the hour-long foot rubs nearly every day. Meanwhile she's a massage therapist that won't touch you. ARE YOU SERIOUS???

Yeah, hard to figure out who is more oblivious in this sitch, or better yet, maybe I'm just oblivious and she is just cold hearted selfish!

I'm officially taking away your man-card until you earn it back, LOL!

LMAO (as sad as it is), yeah I deserve that one.

And can you clarify something, you are 3 months behind on your mortgage and worried about foreclosure and just dealt with your electricity getting shut off, and your W takes D on a day-long shopping trip for TWO new dresses and shoes and such for a.... school dance? Am I really reading that right? I think you need to give some serious thoughts to what your priorities are and get your life back on track. All these attempts to appease your W are just killing you and your M. Time to man up!

And so here is the catch 22, I am 100% in agreement w/ you. I have always controlled all financial dealings in our house, the W is working now and has her own money, in an attempt to be less controlling, I have asked little about her finances. To her credit she has been putting what I am guessing to be 99% of her pay to household bills up to know. How ever there is nothing set in stone.

I suggested D13 gets 1 dress and uses it for both the dance and 8th grade promotion, I had no idea she was getting shoes too! (W even came home w/ a new pair of shoes for herself). It's one of those things... pick my battles, if I put my foot down she would of done as she pleased, or lied and said the "sister" paid for them.

And then you have the tax return, I do not know what her intentions were here. After she got her taxes done she told me what she was getting back ($5200), if she planned on not contributing that to the household, then why did she not lie about the amount then? I occurred a lot of late penalties on CC's along w/ the mortgage that she was aware of while sitting on this money. I had no idea she made that payment arrangement w/ the elec. company or for how much, why did she not just take care of it? Why are we still sitting here to this day at risk of foreclosure?

Four months ago, before things were as bleak as they are now, I decided to sell my nice mountain bike and down grade to free up some cash, she knows how much that bike means to me, 7-8 years ago I built it piece by piece as I could buy the parts, not to mention I have been mountain biking weekly for the past few months. Anyhow, like I said I bought a more modest bike putting the rest of the money to the household, about two weeks ago I was sitting on the back patio w/ her, I told her that I was gonna have to sell my bike to get some cash. I thought she would of at least been like, "Gosh, that really bites, I know how much you have been enjoying riding lately... sorry babe, we'll get you another soon." Rather her response was nonchalant, and then to find out she was sitting on that money!!@!@!

[Clyde]

Yesterday was our anniversary, I did not mention it at all. Nor did she. We were supposed to go watch the sunset on the beach.

We planned on going to a free concert on saturday as part of our anniversary outing, yesterday she asked me what was "going on saturday?". I told her, "I'm still going". She looked shocked.
W: "oh really, so you have your ticket already?"
M: "nope, it is a free show, part of a brewery promotion, remember?"
W: "Oh, okay"

I knows she was thinking I was either not going to go, or tell her she should still go with me...NOT HAPPENING!!!

She brought it up again today, a few weeks ago I lined up for the kiddos to spend the night at my parents as we were both going to the show...

W: "so are the kids still going to your parents tomorrow night?"
M: "Yup, the've been looking forward to it, no need to cancel there overnighter at Gma's & Gpa's."
W: "So are you dropping them off?"
M: "Sure I can drop them off on my way to the show, that is unless you want too."

[Clyde]

about two weeks ago I was sitting on the back patio w/ her, I told her that I was gonna have to sell my bike to get some cash.

Just to clarify, this is the second "downgraded" bike... I had already sold the nice bike.

[Maika]

You selling your bike broke my heart man! You just sold a piece of you. Sure you can get it back and rebuild something new, but with your W being callous with money and you having to dig deep to keep the fam afloat is tragic. I don't have anything to add to what others have said, but you need to seriously start taking control of things that you can about your life.

I am sad because you had to sell your GAL, while she had money that she spent frivolously. Dayummm!! When I think about what piecing is, it has to include both partners working to save the M and protect the family and create a new partnership.

What just happened with you is not any of that. Sorry man, but time to take a hard line approach to gain back your sanity and b@lls.

[Clyde]

You selling your bike broke my heart man! You just sold a piece of you.

Thanks Maika,

To clarify I have not sold the second "downgrade" bike as of yet, it has been on Craig's list for the past two weeks, waiting for a new home.

I actually took it off Craig's list this a.m... came up w/ a new plan for the time being. The W's truck ended up being a total loss, the ins company will not even give us the option to fix it. Rather than take the full amount they are offering and getting another truck, I'm going to buy the truck back from them w/ a salvage title. That still leaves a good chunk of $ left over, I'm going to have any safety issues fixed on the truck and leave the rest for now. I will use the rest of the money to bring our bills current.

This is going to drive the W crazy, she is the type that washes/cleans her truck weekly, if she has to drive it around with the dents/damage it is really gonna bother her.

I mentioned it last night, to my surprise she did not contest the idea, however upon reflection after the talk I do not know if I was clear enough on what we were going to do w/ the left over money. I told her what the ins company offered, showed her that it was not enough to replace her truck w/ a comparable truck in the same shape hers was (hers was pristine) with out putting cash out of pocket. I told her let's do the minimum to get it safely back on the road for now, when we can afford it, we will look into replacing it, or having the body work done.

Like I said to my surprise she did not contest the idea, maybe she needs time to think it over, or maybe she thinks I'm going to do as I always have in the past... In the past I would of taken the opportunity to upgrade, I would of stashed that cash and added to it until I could afford something nicer for her. Sounds crazy that she would think that given our financial sitch, but I do not put anything past her.

So now I need to decide if I should clarify what we are going to do w/ the money or just go ahead and do it.

[Clyde]

Back to the bike... as I write this I am sitting a top a mountain I just rode up. I'm over looking the ocean and enjoying the breeze, enjoying being away from the madness at home.

So for now it looks like the bike might live another day, if it doesn't- yeah that [censored], but I'll get another eventually.

Time to go enjoy the downhill part of the ride.

[ovrrnbw]

Sorry to hijack, but can someone tell me what "piecing" means?

[kiro]

Clyde, you remind me of myself before my W's BD about a year ago. I agree with most comments. I don't think you are in piecing.

The reason you remind me of me is because you are trying too hard to fix things. I am not an expert in DBing and have more questions than answers, but I can tell that you are a logical person. You are trying to make sense of your situation and you are trying to convince your wife about what is right. This is not working and will not work. You need to stop all these debates and talk less. You need to accept that she will do what she wants to do even if it doesn't make sense to you. Like many have already pointed to, you cannot control her. And you will not convince her by reason.

I don't have the answer to your situation. You're in a different spot, but your expectation is too high. You are tracking all her moves almost on a daily basis and it affects you emotionally. This is where I was the first 6 months after W's BD. And it didn't work out well for me. It was a roller-coaster. One week, things would be great and the next, she would be cold and distant. She was not committed to work on the M.

Someone told you that you need to "man-up". I totally agree.

You also need to stop trying to fix her and control her. You need to let go and GAL.

You also need to accept that this is a long process. What you expect will take days or weeks, could take months or even years. So you need to be patient. Stop caring what she does and what she says. Take care of yourself and your kids.

[kiro]

A few more thoughts:

1. She is probably very confused herself. She is probably overwhelmed with emotions and doesn't know what she wants, except that she wants to feel good about herself. So don't trust what she says. She could say a thing one day, and then say or do the opposite the next day. Remember this is all about emotions and not reason or logic.

2. She will manipulate you whenever she can to get what she wants (or feels she wants). This is very tricky because you want her and she knows you do. Every time someone on this post points to the fact that you are pursuing her and have not let go, you argue back. But if we feel it, then you can be assured that she feels it to. She will only believe that you can really move on without her when you really believe so yourself.

3. You need to loosen up a little and not expect things to be perfect all the time, especially with the kids. This is sensitive subject and I could be wrong, but I think you need to use your judgment. This is a tough time for everyone because of your M situation but also for your 13 year old due to her age. My point is that you want the family to feel safe around you. You need to be fun, and choose the battles worth fighting for.


Just my 2 cents.

[Clyde]

Things are still the same, if not worse. I keep convos w/ the W at a minimal, she will occasionally try to make small talk, I will engage as briefly as possible, making sure I do not open the door for the convo to go any longer than necessary.

I have completely abandoned any notion that we may be piecing, going forward I am implementing sandi's rules, having a little more of my bearing these days I hope to be more successful in doing so. I already broke a few yesterday during a convo about finances even though I was dead set on following them to a T, clearly I took the bait the W was putting out there. I would of preferred not to have the convo w/ the W at all as I knew she would see it as pursing, that being said it was necessary as I needed to make sure she was aware of what I was going to do w/ the ins. $ from the truck, and I also needed to know if she was going to continue to help w/ household bills, (even though she already told me she would not help w/the mortgage).

As hard as I tried to keep the convo strictly on finances it was near impossible. Last week when the W said, "I'm done w/ the M", I told her "fine, go, whats your plan?". Anyhow, she brought up that if she is going to stay or go is a factor as to wether or not she is going to contribute to the household bills. All said and done, a definitive answer as to if she is going to contribute or not was not established... I swear I can carry on a more productive convo w/ my 6 YO!!!!

During the convo, she was pretty much saying it was her way or the highway, my response, "the highway is that way!". Then she would fall back on her excuses, twisted reasoning etc. during which I tried to validate when possible, but also held to my boundaries. Several times I tried to stop the convo by saying, "this is accomplishing nothing, we see it two different ways. I am willing to sit down in front of a neutral person and have them share their point of view, where I am wrong I will admit and move accordingly... you refuse to do so, you refuse to have any responsibility for any of the sitch we are in, that leave us right were we are, accomplishing nothing! So are we even having this convo?"

At that point she brought up how would we pay for counseling again. I again suggested we use some of her tax return. She said "nope, not spending the money on that, besides, I would have to miss work to go to C."....anyhow, I think you get the idea. my best efforts could not keep this convo on track, and in the end she ended up do more damage by saying stupid things.

Like I said earlier, I did not want to have this convo to begin w/, but we need to establish how fins are going to work, and having not achieved what I set out to do, now what? (I can tell she saw the whole convo as pursuing, she seemed extra chipper this a.m.) I can just tell her what she has to pay, likely she will be even less inclined to do so as it would be a request from me.

One thing that was gained by this convo, I now sit here with out a shadow of a doubt, without a single reason to think she is anything but selfish!

M: "So you refuse to help me w/ the mortgage?"
W: "Thats your responsibility, I help w/ enough bills."
M: "You realize we are nearing foreclosure?"
W: "I thought you were selling your bike, why don't you sell some of your guitars too!"
M: "Bike has been on crags list, I'm trying, even if it does sell that is not even a quarter of what we owe... as far as the guitars, if we really needed to I would, how about we start selling some of your stuff? Or you could use some of that money you are sitting on."
W: "I want the security of having that money in the bank."
M: "If we brought the mortgage current there would still be a good amount left in your account, what security do you have if we don't have a roof over our heads?"
W: "Why don't you get a 9 - 5?
M: "We've been over this a million times, I even told you last year I would get a 9-5, but we would have to BK, get rid of the house etc. etc... you said no, lets not do that"

Silence

M: "Tell me this, when those contracts I am waiting on o go forward, when I am busy again and money is not an issue, are you expecting me to go buy you a new truck, one that is nicer than your old one?"

She just sits there silent.

M: "Look me in the eyes and tell me that you are not expecting me to buy you a nicer truck with the money I will be making?"
W: "Well I would hope so, after all your kids are going to be driving in it."
M: "Do your kids not live under this roof? So then why can't you help w/ the mortgage? And as far as your truck goes, I already told you we would have any safety issues fixed on the one we have now, the body damage can wait to be fixed." You seem to go back and forth between "we" and "me" as you see fit, you cannot have it both ways!"
W: " I am done w/ this convo, it I'm having flashbacks of last year, we are sitting in the same spots... everything is the same!"
M: "Wrong, last year I told you I would do anything for this M, clearly you mistook my kindness for ignorance, I'm done going that route! The biggest difference between last year and now is that I am ok if you leave, I can honestly say I gave it my all, that I left nothing on the table! What we are living now, what you want our M to be, is not what I fought for, I'm done fighting for something that is hopeless".

I know some may say those final words were useless, I know I broke several rules through out the convo, it is hard when you are in the middle of it... anyhow, I will now back those words w/ actions. As much as I want to tell her to leave now, I have never truly LRT, in doing so if she comes around great (if I am even interested)... if not, I'm that much closer to starting the next chapter in life.

[Gordie]

Reread the sections on LRT ultimatums and after the LRT

I have been where you are and that all helped me

You can only control you and feel like you are still acting like a H

Re finances

Maybe it is in your best interest to sell the house

Sounds like you can not afford it right now

Better to sell on your terms than go through foreclosure

Then you can live a life you can afford independent of your w

That would be free if to both of you

[Clyde]

Gordie

Are you talking about in the DR book, or on this forum (the LRT reading you suggested)?

As far as selling the house, my shop is on the property, if I was to sell it would cost me about the same to rent a shop then I would also have housing to pay for. While the W does contribute, I don't know that it is anymore than she is taking. She eats organic, expensive teas, supplements etc. When she lived in her apartment the utility bills dropped dramatically. When she moved back in I gave her money to pay for her apartment etc., I paid for 100% of x-mas for the kids and spoiled the W... all this combined with the contracts getting delayed contributed to the current sitch.

My financial sitch is only temp... It's been tight, but I've never been in this sitch before.

[Ginger1]

I apologize in advance, but....

Your wife is an untitiled b!tch who's only concern is her own lifestyle. What you said was absolutely right, IF you stand by it. If you don't intend with following through with your words, they meant nothings, she will continue to suck you dry.

She is very clearly not back in the marriage to be married. She is in it to protect her lifestyle and her own financial interest.

If I was you, I would tell her if she isn't going to pay her share of the mortgage, SHE CAN GET OUT! And mean it!

You are ready to sell everything you love an down to get out of a financial bind and your wife is willing to do NOTHING. Not even give up her fancy bath salts. And when you are raking in the money she wants you to pay for nice expensive stuff?!

I am disgusted on your behalf. You need to go get your balls back, and fast, before she rips your manhood completely away and your money.

[Ginger1]

"entitled"

[Clyde]

I was looking for a thread I saw not to long ago called " The DB Songbook". Couldn't find it, so I guess I will post it here for now.

This is an old country song written by Keith Whitey, I wrote and added the few verses that are in blue. Those verse I wrote directly relate to things the W said last year during BD. I'm sitting here w/ a guitar and a beer, singing my heart out to, part of me kinda hopes she slows down and hears the lyrics.

Anyhow, here it is....

Where there's a cloud don't mean there's rain
Tears in my eyes don't mean there's pain
Don't flatter yourself, I'm over you
Things aren't always what they seem
You can't believe everything you read
Over my face, I'm over you

You heard I'm drinkin' more than I should
And I ain't been lookin' all that good
Someone told you I was takin' it rough
Why they makin' those stories up
When I'm over you?

There are times that you've been around
You would've seen me broken down
But now I'm not, I'm over you
So if I seem a little bit cold
It only mean you lost the hope
You had on me, I'm over you

You heard I'm drinkin' more than I should
And I ain't been lookin' all that good
Someone told you I was takin' it rough
Why they makin' those stories up
When I'm over you?

The free ride is over, it is long gone
It left when your gratitude hit the door
Don't be surprised, I'm over you
You were treated like a queen
But acted like a child
That might of seemed
To work for a while
But with a smile, I'm over you

You say you can't love me
The thought makes nauseous
That feeling in your belly
Is gonna give cancer
Biopsy me, from your life
Your family and your friends
Never liked me
You never could put them in their place
I'm no longer your disgrace
I'm over you

You heard I'm drinkin' more than I should
And I ain't been lookin' all that good
Someone told you I was takin' it rough
Why they makin' those stories up
When I'm over you?

[Clyde]

Thanks Ginger,

No need to apologize, you are spot on!

[Clyde]

Reread this post and saw several typos (damn autocorrect) any how, I'm gonna repost it with out the typos, it doesn't do the song justice with the typos/wrong words.


I was looking for a thread I saw not to long ago called " The DB Songbook". Couldn't find it, so I guess I will post it here for now.

This is an old country song written by Keith Whitey, I wrote and added the few verses that are in blue. Those verse I wrote directly relate to things the W said last year during BD. I'm sitting here w/ a guitar and a beer, singing my heart out to, part of me kinda hopes she slows down and hears the lyrics.

Anyhow, here it is....

Where there's a cloud don't mean there's rain
Tears in my eyes don't mean there's pain
Don't flatter yourself, I'm over you
Things aren't always what they seem
You can't believe everything you read
On my face, I'm over you

You heard I'm drinkin' more than I should
And I ain't been lookin' all that good
Someone told you I was takin' it rough
Why they makin' those stories up
When I'm over you?

There were times if you've been around
You would've seen me broken down
But now you won't, I'm over you
So if I seem a little bit cold
It only means that you lost your hold
You had on me, I'm over you

You heard I'm drinkin' more than I should
And I ain't been lookin' all that good
Someone told you I was takin' it rough
Why they makin' those stories up
When I'm over you?

The free ride is over, it is long gone
It left when your gratitude hit the door
Don't be surprised, I'm over you
You were treated like a queen
But acted like a child
That might of seemed
To work for a while
But with a smile, I'm over you

You say you can't love me
The thought makes nauseous
That feeling in your belly
Is gonna give cancer
Biopsy me, from your life
Your family and your friends
Never liked me
You never could put them in their place
I'm no longer your disgrace
I'm over you

You heard I'm drinkin' more than I should
And I ain't been lookin' all that good
Someone told you I was takin' it rough
Why they makin' those stories up
When I'm over you?

[Gordie]

Awesome

Music soothes the soul

Where is the audio

And sing for you

Not for her

[Gordie]

Clyde

I meant the D R book

And ginger is right

I feel the same way

But she said it more eloquently

[Clyde]

Awesome

Music soothes the soul

Where is the audio

And sing for you

Not for her

Thanks Gordie

Yes, music does soothe the soul, it's always been my outlet ever since I was a kid.

You can find the original version (Keith Whitley's) on you tube... it is great, I'm kinda partial to Cody Jinks cover of it though (you can also find that in you tube). If you are into country what so ever and haven't heard of Cody Jinks you should check him out. His music is not like the over produced hick-pop you here a lot of these days, he's part of that revival that is brewing - taking it back to the basics much like Willie, Johnny, and Waylon did back in their time.

As far as singing for myself, not her - you are completely right, and that's why I love this forum, sometimes you need and receive some pretty heavy, in depth advice, other times you just need to be reminded something as simple and obvious as "sing for yourself - not her"

[Clyde]

Clyde

I meant the D R book

Great, thanks.

I'll be checking it out shortly.

[Clyde]

Now I don't want to sound like a sorry sack... but I'm going to vent/journal. I've found reading over my past post has helped me see/remember a lot of stuff that has transpired, and in doing so has helped me come to the realization of my sitch, (even though many of you called it out long ago). That being said, I'm gonna try and journal more, so that in the future If I'm ever on the fence, doubting my course of action, I can go through these post and remind myself just how things were... no rose color glasses!

Anyhow... time to vent/journal.

This woman has some nerve, she does the Costco run today... gets household items there, of which I will be using. However my one and only staple from there is beef jerky, I eat it for lunch along w/ trail mix several times a week. Every time we go to Costco we get jerky.

W leaves for work - I come in from work, knowing she and the kids just went to Costco I go looking for the jerky, I don't see it (I'm thinking maybe she forgot it) I ask D13 if they remembered to get jerky, D13 says that she "put it in the cart, but mom took it out, said it was too expensive."

Every summer it is tradition that we get the whole family new sandles/flip flops, Being the bread winner its always been me to go out and make this happen. The kiddos usually get a basic pair of Reefs ($20 each), and I get the W and I nicer leather ones, I know my W's size and taste, she's always been stoked on what I get her. Yesterday she goes out and gets everyone flip flops/sandles, ends up getting herself two pairs, does not even ask if I want a pair (she knows I'm rocking worn out ones!). Given our financial sitch I would of passed anyhow, but it would of been a nice gesture for her to ask.

[Ginger1]

She needs to GTFO!

[Maybell]

Clyde, what exactly do you think you have to work with in this relationship?

[Clyde]

She needs to GTFO!

Ginger

I appreciate your honesty, I wish it was that simple...(who knows, maybe there is a reason it is not).

Here is my predicament, (before I even go into it, I will own that I allowed myself to be put in this position by letting her come back home), as I sit here right now I am saying the same thing (GTFO) plus a few expletives! Last year,after she and her sister had called the cops on me twice to unsuccessfully have me arrested, I had finally hit my limit. I sat down w/ the W and calmly said "clearly this is not working, you say you want to leave, now is the time"... she immediately got up, called the police again, I don't know exactly what she said but they showed up swat style, over a dozen of them, and even though I was calm, collected, walked to them in an unthreatening manor, I ended up face down in the driveway with a knee in my back. After securing me, I was allowed to talk, not only was I not arrested, but they allowed my daughter to stay w/ me and made the W leave the house... long story short, the W's next step was to file a bogus TRO, (it got thrown out 4 days after being served, she got a good chastising from the judge too). Why did she file a bogus TRO - she developed an entitlement along the way, she does not have the drive to support herself even w/ the support payments she gets when custody is 50/50. I really believe that the plan she, her "sister", and her para legal friend hatched up was to get full custody, in which case she would not have to work. I fear it will happen again but having failed last time, she will go to more extremes this time, she might go as far as giving herself a black eye or something like that. She even eluded to the fact she will do it again back in January when we had a falling out.

So back to my predicament, how do I get her to go peacefully???

Any sudden demand of the W is likely to end bad, Last ditch effort LRT? I've never successfully executed it for any length of time. Maybe that would wake her up, maybe not, but maybe in that time a peaceful separation could happen?????? This seems like the perfect point to dive into Maybell's question...

Clyde, what exactly do you think you have to work with in this relationship?

At this point the only thing I have to work with/my only hope is LRT.

Letting go is coming natural at this point, (never thought I would say that). I know someday I will have a healthy meaningful R, whether it be w/ my W, or someone else. My W has mistaken my kindness for weakness, my willingness to do what ever to keep the family together as desperation. She is wrong.

If we do make it through this never again will the dynamic be the same on so many levels. I laugh that she is being so tight fisted on her tax return, it will go fast. The financial crunch I am in is rare, it won't be long till she expects me to pick up her slack... again, she is wrong.

I re-read LRT in the DR book, at this point I think the hardest part for me is not being cold/callous around her.

Up to now, I've been holding out hope that my MLC W had/was slowly returning to her senses, it had seemed as though she was making her way back, I know the sister coming back into the picture 6 weeks ago is a factor, the timing is right in line w/ when the W's efforts plummeted - they went 6 months without talking, now they are talking daily.

So thats were I'm at... one can only guess were she is at, and while I know it is not good to try and figure out were the MLC W is mentally, here is my best take on the scenario.

I believe she loves me, I believe she wants us to be a family. I know something has changed in the last 3 years, hormones, MLC, maybe they are one in the same, I believe she is confused.

Then to throw fuel on the fire, there is the "sister" who also has a vendetta against me since I threatened to blow the lid on her affairs. On top of that the W has compared me to the "sisters's" H, saying things like why can't you be secure like him? (He has no idea what his W has done behind his back, on top of that, this guy is a complete b!tch), W told me how she and the "sister" were on his back patio having drinks, he got home from work and saw that they needed another, he made three drinks (1 for himself also) brings them to the table and tries to sit down w/ them and the "sister" motions her hands and tells him "you can go now".

My W still says the first crack in our R was during the treehouse argument. When I first started posting, I got a lot of flack about how I handled it - I told the W she could get a job and support the house, that I would be a SAHF. This was in response to my W saying I could not build a $400 tree house, because our house was a $hit hole (It is not). Having read over my thread, I've got to wonder if I did not articulate myself well enough, current day, having explained my sitch more thoroughly, I'm curious if the treehouse would of been considered a form of GAL, if my response to her was one that demanded respect... just a thought. Anyhow, back to my point, was this the first crack, or was it the first sign of her entitlement getting called out?

[Gordie]

Clyde

I feel like you are still in the L B S fog

Re read what you wrote and what she has done to you

She treats you like shoot

And then you expect her to buy you beef jerky and sandals

Stop stop stop

You expect her to treat you like a H

Instead she treats you like a criminal

I think I said befoe

You need a L to advise you before you wind up in jail

Or divorced with nocustody and financial support of w for life

Look for one who specializes in paternity rights

She has a team of sister and paralegal hatching plots against you

Who is on team Clyde advising you

You are not clear headed now and need help

And please stop treating her like a w

You can treat her like a w again some day if she starts treating you like a h

But that time is not now

[Maybell]

GET A LAWYER. Just as Gordie said. Protect yourself. Consider telling the sisters husband what she is up to so he can protect himself. You call him a B!tch, but he does not know what is going on. You do, and you are still standing for it. Who is the B!tch?

And frankly, if she will not go, I would consider packing up the kids and leaving yourself. You are in danger.

[AnotherStander]

Clyde, I'm trying to catch up, have been buried at work recently.

You asked what about your behavior made me think you are being passive/aggressive. It's the inconsistency in your behavior towards her. Going back to the massages, you give her foot massages expecting a massage in return, you don't get it so you withdraw your massages and give her the cold shoulder. That's very passive/aggressive and NGS. And it's not just the massages, you are constantly trying to do things for her and then withdraw those things as "punishment" when she doesn't give you what you want. But then you turn around and try a different favor, but while you think you are doing something different you are not, it's more of the same.

And IT'S NOT WORKING. Here is the thing- SHE IS 100% CONSISTENT. She is DONE. You have got to get that through your head, Her behavior ALL says she is done with the M. So why do you keep having these expectations that she will behave like a W? Your first step to recovery is realizing you are not married anymore except on some piece of paper somewhere. You and your W no longer function as a married couple. That ship has sailed. So what does that mean going forward, how do you change and adapt with the consideration that you are no longer married.

Here's what you need to figure out- how are you going to pull yourself out of this financial mess you are in WITHOUT W. Quit counting on her to pitch in, she's already told you that's not going to happen. So gather yourself up and figure it out. Sell the house if you have to. I don't understand your explanation that you can't sell it because the shop is there and it'll cost you as much elsewhere, if you are not paying your mortgage and you get foreclosed on then whatever equity you have in the home is GONE. I know it's not as simple as snapping your fingers, but I'm just saying you've got to have a plan and work on that plan. If you have to stay in the house then figure out how to increase your income, again, WITHOUT your W. This stuff isn't going to fix itself and it's not going to just go away, YOU have to do ALL the work. So steel yourself, develop a plan, work on that plan.

You said your bills went way up when W came back, well then have her pony up or get the hell out. You're afraid she might call the police? LET HER CALL THEM. What happened last time, they told HER to leave. What are you afraid of? Your W has ALREADY done her worst and it all just backfired on her. Quit living in fear and take control.

The irony is, if you do that then that may very well attract her back to you.

[Clyde]

Gordie

Clyde

I feel like you are still in the L B S fog

Re read what you wrote and what she has done to you

She treats you like shoot

And then you expect her to buy you beef jerky and sandals

Stop stop stop

You expect her to treat you like a H

I can't argue with what you are saying about how she is treating me. I do think I am coming out of the fog though... I am done w/ her $h!t. I almost did not post about the jerky and sandals as I did not want to sound pathetic... but like I said, being able to go back and read my previous post helped in clearing that fog if you will.

Instead she treats you like a criminal

I think I said befoe

You need a L to advise you before you wind up in jail

Or divorced with nocustody and financial support of w for life

Look for one who specializes in paternity rights

She has a team of sister and paralegal hatching plots against you

Who is on team Clyde advising you

You are not clear headed now and need help

I have a really good L, I still have a good amount of the original retainer left w/ him, so it is somewhat reassuring.

At his point there is little I can do other than kick her out via a letter from the L, and then I have to give her 30 days to leave, at witch point she can still start her antics. I feel that is what she wants/expects, doing so will justify her antics. I really feel as though I am taking the best approach (LRT), if nothing else, it buys me some time to see if there is a more amicable way to go our separate ways. One thing is for sure though, during this time she will help w/ the bills... no more free rides!

From what I have seen in the last few days, she thinks this will all roll over, its all a power play that she thinks she is certain to win given my actions the last 18 months. 2 nights ago she comes out and starts doing yoga in front of me, she was wearing very revealing shorts, at times her stretches made it to were she was touching me, while I could see her out of my peripheral, I made sure I did not even glance at her, I know she was trying to get me to come on to her... and then bam! - everything gets swept under the rug, we have a few nights of passionate sex to make sure it is far far under the rug, then she goes back to being selfish. When she was done doing yoga she even gave herself a foot massage, I am certain she thought I was going say "Hey let me do that for you."

I am really interested to see how she responds to LRT/me letting go. I am looking forward to getting my dignity back!

And please stop treating her like a w

You can treat her like a w again some day if she starts treating you like a h

But that time is not now

I agree 100%, (even though I had to figure it out the hard way)

[Clyde]

GET A LAWYER. Just as Gordie said. Protect yourself. Consider telling the sisters husband what she is up to so he can protect himself. You call him a B!tch, but he does not know what is going on. You do, and you are still standing for it. Who is the B!tch?

I reached out to him, when he did not answer my phone calls I text him...

"Hey _______, this is Clyde. We should really get together and talk, there is a lot of things you should know about, if you have any doubts about what I have to tell you, I am more than willing to take a polygraph, I'll even pay for it".

He never responded.

I knew when I called him a b!tch I was opening myself up for the same criticism, that is a well deserved 2x4. Not to diminish how I have acted in the last 18 months, but I am going to say the he is much more of a b!tch, my actions came about after BD, this guy puts up w/ them since day one, he may not know about all the affairs, but he is talked down to an publicly humiliated an a regular basis, and the person doing it is the same person giving my W advice... anyhow, thats out of my control, dwelling on it is not going to help let go.

And frankly, if she will not go, I would consider packing up the kids and leaving yourself. You are in danger.

I am rolling the dice as far as the danger part goes... my W was able to lie and get the TRO, however she got her but kicked in every court proceeding, I think it was a wake up call to her and will be in the back of her head if her mind goes there. I'll touch some more why I do not want to leave the house below.

Sell the house if you have to. I don't understand your explanation that you can't sell it because the shop is there and it'll cost you as much elsewhere, if you are not paying your mortgage and you get foreclosed

AS & Maybell... My mortgage is 2k a month, in this area you can not even rent a 3 bedroom apartment for that, on top of that I have my shop on the property... to rent a shop would cost an additional $1500.

Being able to work on the property is very valuable to me, as a single father I was still able to get some work done when the kids were w/ me, it increases the amount of time I see the family.

During the original court proceedings the W agreed to leave if I gave her a large sum of money, I did just that. Her ability to get the most amount of $ for support relates to me keeping the house (shop rent comes out of profits). I owned this house before we got together, currently there is no equity in it. So I hope that sheds some light on the house sitch.

The mortgage is now current.

[Clyde]

AS,

I gotta go for the night, taking my dad to a concert for fathers day, before that I got to wear the kiddos out w/ a mountain bike ride so that they are nice and mellow as my mom watches them.

I will respond to your post asap... thanks

[Gordie]

[Gordie]

Congratulations on getting the mortgage current

Happy father s day

Hope you do something special

[Ginger1]

I will agree, Clyde, you put yourself back in this situation. You took her back very easily after what you went through. So now, yes, you do have to work with the situation you are currently in.

My advice to you: Do not treat her as a wife, and do not expect her to treat you as a husband. That means, no touching her at all (the foot rubs, seriously have to go) let her tease you with her yoga stuff. I cannot imagine you find anything attractive about her right now. She has made herself quite ugly. A little pair of yoga booty shorts shouldn't wash away that ugliness.

Do not hand her a dime. Do not make her a meal. Take nothing form her and give her nothing.

You are in danger. She is not above doing anything she needs to to get what she wants. You have experienced that first hand.

I understand your predicament with the house. I also live in a very very expensive area of this country. But, you need to divorce her to protect yourself. Do it legally the right way before she takes anymore from you or tries to pull another RO on you.

I feel for you. You seem like a loving father and a loving husband who was just trying to do right by his family. She is just awful.

Happy father's day. Enjoy it with your kids.

[Clyde]

You asked what about your behavior made me think you are being passive/aggressive. It's the inconsistency in your behavior towards her. Going back to the massages, you give her foot massages expecting a massage in return, you don't get it so you withdraw your massages and give her the cold shoulder. That's very passive/aggressive and NGS. And it's not just the massages, you are constantly trying to do things for her and then withdraw those things as "punishment" when she doesn't give you what you want. But then you turn around and try a different favor, but while you think you are doing something different you are not, it's more of the same.

I have struggled with this, hence my reasoning to re-read NMMNG, in the book the author refers to it as covert contracts. I stopped giving her foot massages, bringing her flowers/wine about 2 months ago, other than the one to two times she has straight asked for a massage. Up to that point I was petty consistent on giving even though it was not being reciprocated. I did so for two reasons, first being what you just stated, and what I had read about(covert contracts), and that I did not want to punish her or have her feel like the only reason I was doing it was in hopes of getting something in return. The second being that I have no desire to be in a selfish M, prior to the W's MLC/BD, everything was very reciprocal, I know see that in our M post reconcile, I was being too optimistic, putting too much stock in our M, not being patient enough - thinking our M would just pick up where we left off when things were good. So not only was I being very giving towards her, I was trying to step it up even more than when things were good (pre MLC/BD). This did not sow favorable results, and I can't disagree w/ what many of you are saying... that this is not a M, that I should not treat her like a W until she treats me like a H.

And IT'S NOT WORKING. Here is the thing- SHE IS 100% CONSISTENT. She is DONE. You have got to get that through your head, Her behavior ALL says she is done with the M. So why do you keep having these expectations that she will behave like a W? Your first step to recovery is realizing you are not married anymore except on some piece of paper somewhere. You and your W no longer function as a married couple. That ship has sailed. So what does that mean going forward, how do you change and adapt with the consideration that you are no longer married.

So the last 4+ weeks our interactions, communications have been minimal at my doing, we had the one night of what seemed like we were coming together, only to have the next day bring another road block via her actions. Over those 4 weeks I battled with where I was - over it, standing, angry, exhausted, disillusioned... any how, in the past 2 weeks I kinda shifted away from being over it, to just being aware of what it really is if you will - (is that just another way to say I have surrendered the notion I have any control of how this M will end up?), this helped me to be more cordial towards her, I did not initiate any convos, said hi/bye, good night, (NO ILY), at one point I kinda realized I was doing LRT, and decided to try and follow LRT guidelines and Sandi's rules. With the exception of a day or two after the argument we had about the "sister", the W has been very nice & talkative to me, in the last 2 weeks I'd been trying to figure out if she was pursing or not, if not for the jerky/sandals incident it definitely seemed that was the case (as a matter of fact I have to wonder if the jerky/sandals incident was not in response towards me not responding to her come ons to me). Anyhow in the past 4-5 days she has aggressively pursued me.

I been trying to walk that line, it got complicated the other night. We were laying in bed watching TV, she reached over and grabbed my hand and started to give me a hand/arm massage... she got very sensual wile doing so. Next thing I know she is jumping my bones w/ a passion I have not seen since pre BD, as much as I just wanted to enjoy it for what it was, it is probably needless to say I had a lot on my mind, first being - am I tossing out the last weeks of LRT, is this going to be a rug sweeping etc...

Anyhow, afterwards we are both laying there. I realize she is crying (she doing her best to hide it, even denies it at first). I ask her what is wrong, she says nothing, she finally opens up:

W: I feel like you are not in to me. I don't think you are attracted to me anymore, I have really been questioning if you might be seeing someone else.
M: Thats some heavy emotions, it can't be easy to feel that way... I know, because I have been feeling the same way for the past 18 months.
W: I am really trying, I just put myself out there, I did every possible thing I could think of to turn you on, and yet it seems like you are not into it.
M: I could see and feel how passionate you were, and as turned on by all of it as I was, I have so much going through my head as far as our M goes, I do not know that I can be 100% into it w/ all the factors lingering in my head.
W: But you are a guy, guys don't think like that.
M: Well I do............. We have had our ups and downs over the past 7 months, but this past month has been very discouraging for me, I feel like there has been some lines drawn in the sand that make it impossible to have a healthy M.

She is still crying.

M: Thanks for opening up too me, I was completely unaware you felt that way, do now this, I still think you are the most gorgeous woman I've ever seen, but at the same time I am battling w/ the thought this M may not work, I still hold hope we will figure it out.

We lay there for a few minutes, she then says goodnight, I say goodnight back, (neither of us say ILY) about 2 minutes later the W says ILY (its like she was waiting for me to initiate it) I say ILY back.

Here's what you need to figure out- how are you going to pull yourself out of this financial mess you are in WITHOUT W. Quit counting on her to pitch in, she's already told you that's not going to happen. So gather yourself up and figure it out.

Usually I can carry the whole household on my own.

The sitch I was in is rare, several things contributed to it. First being, I usually have back up cash for these instances, any nest egg was spent on the lawyer, the cash I gave the W to leave etc., to compound that, I have been trying to keep regular works hours, and that has narrowed the jobs I can take on. Third, I had 3 contracts get delayed all in a row, (delayed - not suspended) - so here is the irony, its looking like all three of those jobs are going to now over lap if not happen simultaneously, I'm going to be busy as heck for 2-3 months, but I should also take home a fairly impressive payday if done right. Back to the irony... the W has now set the precedence that her money is hers, therefore this money will be mine, she's banking I will be NG when it comes to her financial needs/deficets.

You said your bills went way up when W came back, well then have her pony up or get the hell out. You're afraid she might call the police? LET HER CALL THEM. What happened last time, they told HER to leave. What are you afraid of? Your W has ALREADY done her worst and it all just backfired on her. Quit living in fear and take control.

My thought exactly, I have sat down and gone through household expenses, she will need to contribute her fair share if she wants to live here. This is a convo we have yet to have.

The irony is, if you do that then that may very well attract her back to you.

If the last week is any sign, then yes quite possibly!

[hongaku]

Sounds like you could be starting to piece for realz...

[Clyde]

Happy father s day

Hope you do something special

Happy father's day. Enjoy it with your kids.l

Thanks Gordie and Ginger,

I did have a great fathers day. Spent the day w/ the kiddos, riding bikes - hanging out, then we all went and had dinner at my parents house to celebrate with my father.

My S7 had made a fathers day card in school, on the back was this poem:

"Walk a little slower daddy," said a child so
small. "I'm following in your footsteps and
I don't want to fall.

Sometimes your steps are very fast,
Sometimes they are very hard to see;
So walk a little slower, Daddy,
For you are leading me.

Someday when I'm all grown up,
You're what I want to be;
Then I will have a little child
Who'll want to follow me.

And I would want to lead just right,
And know that i was true;
So walk a little slower, Daddy,
For I must follow you."

It brought a good tear to my eye as I read it. Like most here, my little ones have gone though so much during the W's and I's tribulations, it breaks my heart.

[AnotherStander]

I have struggled with this, hence my reasoning to re-read NMMNG, in the book the author refers to it as covert contracts.

Yes exactly! I couldn't remember the term, but Acc just posted it in someone else's thread.

I stopped giving her foot massages, bringing her flowers/wine about 2 months ago, other than the one to two times she has straight asked for a massage.

Good, glad you are recognizing it and working on it.

...and decided to try and follow LRT guidelines and Sandi's rules. ....Anyhow in the past 4-5 days she has aggressively pursued me.

Yeah that is exactly how i works. You stop pursuit and pull back and she quits running, and eventually may pursue you herself. Just be careful how you react. Do you know the squirrel analogy? If you are feeding a wild squirrel you hold the nut out and remain perfectly still. They will VERY SLOWLY approach, but if you make any ANY movement to try and close the gap it sends them scurrying off again and the process starts all over. But eventually if you have the patience to hold perfectly still, the squirrel will finally reach you.

W: I feel like you are not in to me. I don't think you are attracted to me anymore, I have really been questioning if you might be seeing someone else.

Classic temperature check! Wants to make sure you are hanging on as Plan B. I didn't post the rest of your convo in here but I will say your responses were pretty good although not 100% validation which is what this situation called for. I'd say maybe 75% validation and 25% pursuit, especially this:

I still hold hope we will figure it out.

So try and check comments like that. Stick to validation- understanding her feelings, being empathetic.

In general that was a great post, it sounds like you have made some awesome progress in the last few weeks!!

[Clyde]

I will agree, Clyde, you put yourself back in this situation. You took her back very easily after what you went through. So now, yes, you do have to work with the situation you are currently in.

My advice to you: Do not treat her as a wife, and do not expect her to treat you as a husband. That means, no touching her at all (the foot rubs, seriously have to go) let her tease you with her yoga stuff. I cannot imagine you find anything attractive about her right now. She has made herself quite ugly. A little pair of yoga booty shorts shouldn't wash away that ugliness.

Do not hand her a dime. Do not make her a meal. Take nothing form her and give her nothing.

This is tough, I am proceeding as best as I can analyzing her actions/ the state of things as i go, and since they changed rapidly, its only made it tougher.

Her selfishness is something that developed over the last 2 years, now that she is pursuing - should I expect that selfishness to vanish suddenly?

She had to work Fathers Day from 10 - 5, she never asked or tried to make plans other than asking what plans were. I told her that we were just going to ride bikes and hang out, then go to dinner at my folks house, I did not invite her at that point. Fathers day morning she made me breakfast before going to work, before leaving she asked if the kids and I were still planning on going to my folks house for dinner, I said yes - and told her she is more than welcome to join us. Up to this point I had been LRT. I did not think she would go, but she showed up, my family knows things are not going well, my parents still manage to be open armed to her, my sister on the other hand would not look at her when she showed up to dinner. W was a little late, and there was no room at the table for her, my sister's kids were at the table and usually a kid would get the boot to make room for the adults, this did not happen though. My W went and sat at the counter to eat, after about a minute I was feeling bad for her so I went and joined her. though we sat together, we did not talk all that much.

It was later that night when she jumped my bones and then cried afterwards, going forward from there has been really nice on the surface, W has been pursuing me, can't keep her hands off me, been super nice etc. Meanwhile there is much that has yet to be resolved.

We had planned on going to a concert together (planned it last month), given the state of our R, I bought a ticket to go by myself last week. The show was a few days ago, I either had to break the news I was going solo, or ask if we still planned on going together. I chose to do the later, when I asked her, she said yes, and that she would buy the tickets. I already had bought my ticket, and since I did not want her to know, I told her that I would go ahead and grab the tickets, but that she was on the hook for dinner and drinks. She said that sounds good. I then said,

M: "I just want to make sure we are going to be able to go and have a good time, I can't do any more drama, are you going to be able to handle it?"
W: "As long as you are not going to pick any fight w/ me" (She says this while chuckling as if she is joking... referring to our last outing where she bought up the "sister" and teddy parties.)
M: "Thats not even funny, we both know how that went down, don't be bringing stuff up that you know I will react to, I'm not going to have it."

At that point she just kinda laughs it off, embraces me and gives me a kiss.

So we go to the show and have a great time, W still can not keep her hands off of me and is showing more PDA then usual, this is all a far cry from anything I have seen over the past 7 months since she came home.

So now I am trying to figure out my course forward, I have been warm and reciprocal to her advances, we've been intimate a couple of times a day in the past few days, a couple of them I took to the next level as we were kissing etc.

I have broken down the household finances... she has not contributed nearly enough, at this point we should be as close to a 50/50 split as possible. This is a talk we will have to have in the next few days.

I don't know that I can state my stance about the "sister" and my W's disrespect/lack of consideration when w/ her any more clearly than I already have. Should I bring it back up, or did she get the message?

As I stated in an earlier post, she initiated this separate finances - her money is hers dynamic, yeah I could of used her help last month, but that is rare. So going forward, she no longer has me to cover her a$$ financially.

[Clyde]

Yeah that is exactly how i works. You stop pursuit and pull back and she quits running, and eventually may pursue you herself. Just be careful how you react. Do you know the squirrel analogy? If you are feeding a wild squirrel you hold the nut out and remain perfectly still. They will VERY SLOWLY approach, but if you make any ANY movement to try and close the gap it sends them scurrying off again and the process starts all over. But eventually if you have the patience to hold perfectly still, the squirrel will finally reach you.

AS,

We must of been posting at the same time lol, what you posted above answers the question I was asking in my last post. Reflecting on the last 4-5 days i would say I did not stay still, rather tried to close the gap. Time to slow down, patience, time once again to shift gears.

The squirrel analogy is great!

Thank you

[Ginger1]

How classic. Starts to think you are for real and she wont get her way, then lures you back in with sex.....

and it works!

I am sorry to be really hard with the truth here, but she knows what she has in her power, because it works so easily.

Wait until the next mortgage payment is due. I would bet the farm on the fact she won't give you a dime.

Did you forget the cruel things she has done lately?

Use the other head, please!

[Clyde]

How classic. Starts to think you are for real and she wont get her way, then lures you back in with sex.....

and it works!

I am sorry to be really hard with the truth here, but she knows what she has in her power, because it works so easily.

Ginger,

No need to apologize, please keep it real, I appreciate your candidness.

What you are saying crossed my mind even before it unfolded. It's hard to know if she is being genuine, what ever the case it is a change in tides. At this point I plan on moving forward eyes wide open, with caution and the knowledge of how she has conducted herself to date.

I am seeing other advances other than in the bedroom. A few days ago I was replanting my plumeria plants for the season, I needed new/bigger pots for them... I told her I was going to go get them, she said she could pick them up as she needed to go to the hardware store anyhow, (I have a lot of plumerias) cost of the pots is well over $100, I said sure - that would be great, thx. I did not offer her any money, nor did she hesitate waiting for me to do so, rather she went and got them.

This a.m. I woke with a severe migraine, I get them because of my neck injury. They are pretty intense and most case cause me to vomit, light/noise sensitivity etc, other than taking Vicodin & muscle relaxers the only way to combat these migraines is via a massage to get my neck muscles to release. When I told her I had the migraine she offered to massage me... a real massage on the massage table, not a quick back rub while sitting in front of her.

I wear my heart on my shoulder, it was not hard to LRT the last few weeks as I was truly getting to the end of my rope. Now, given the change and her pursuit, I'm finding it hard to find that middle ground, be the squirrel sitting still as AS put it. Last night and this a.m. I was a little withdrawn, maybe too much - as where prior to that I may have been too warm since she started to aggressively pursue me.

[Gordie]

Read the pursuit and distance threads in newcomers and MLC

You are still playing the game

She is pursuing you and you are happy and feel things are better

I hope they are

But fear this is just a cycle

And she will distance again

And you will freak out

This is a very hard cycle to break

The answer is to be steady and detached and independent

If she pursues you fine

If she distances fine

It does not affect you in any way whatsoever

You are living your life independent of her

You are happy and content no matter what she chooses to do

And your life is so awesome

She eventually wants to get on the Clyde bandwagon

[Ginger1]

To add to what Gordie said,

You are living your life DEPENDENT on her, not independent of her. You flow with whatever she is feeling or doing and you gobble up the crumbs that she gives you.

This cycle will just continue if you don't break it.

Do you really think she had an overnight ephiphany from cold heard B!tch, to loving sexual wife?

[Clyde]

Do you really think she had an overnight ephiphany from cold heard B!tch, to loving sexual wife?

That question has been haunting me the past week.

I'm battling with the thought that if I am not receptive/reciprocal towards her, that I might be blowing what is left of our MR.

I am so over all the ups downs, not being able to be myself... that today I feel like ending it, I'm fed up w/ her BS, If not ending it, I feel like telling her this is how it is going to be or I'm done.

I've been reading Sandi's thread "for the newcomer w/ a wayward W. I don't know why I did not read these previous, I guess it is because I never considered her wayward until V pointed out that she does not have to have an A to be wayward. Anyhow, reading the thread has further cemented in my mind the fact she has no remorse for what she has done to the family and I.

So this week she has been getting home from work later than usual. I finally decided to put an extra cell phone in her truck to see if she was going anywhere other than work. When the cell was in her truck she did not go anywhere other than work, I checked her clock out times and it looks like she is staying at work an hour + after clocking out. They have a bar there, I believe she is staying and having a drink at the bar. Usually when she gets home she comes right to me and gives me a kiss... even if I am in bed, (I usually wait up for her to get home) she has not on these nights... perhaps so I don't smell the alcohol.

I want to tell her I know, and tell her it needs to stop, our R is in to fragile of a state to be doing this BS. This is were I want to draw the line on everything, tell her straighten up or hit the road.

Any advice on confronting? I fear that if I go on like I don't care, go on as we are, that is just what she wants. A roof over her head, etc...

[LH19]

C,

In any type of relationship you are in if a person is not meeting your needs and expectations you lovingly communicate to the what those needs and expectations are for you. They can either accept your terms or negotiate their own terms or say no to your terms.

If they say no you must be willing to end the relationship. Are you ready to walk and never look back until your terms are agreed to?

[Gordie]

Clyde

Only you know where you truly are

We hear bits and pieces of wha you share

The anger and frustration are healthy

And most of us need to really feel that to detach

Yes you can say I am done living like this with you

But only if you really mean it and are willing to end it

Read the part on ultimatums

They are not for the unsure or faint of heart

Have you exhausted all the other options

It really is only for after the LRT

When you are really done

[Maybell]

I am so over all the ups downs, not being able to be myself, that today I feel like ending it, I m fed up w her BS, If not ending it, I feel like telling her this is how it is going to be or I m done.

What is the point of this?
From where i sit you ve already told her many times what you want and she ignores you.

Is this what you d want for your kids?
What exactly do you think you have to work with here?

Honestly, after everything she s done I can t imagine any scenario in which you d consider her trustworthy ever again.

[Clyde]

I hit my limit, I feel a tremendous amount of pain for my kids, it is the only thing that has me doubting my actions... this a.m. I told her she needs to leave asap. I'm in contact with my L.


I'll post more later when I get a moment. A lot has unfolded in the last two days.

Please keep my kids in your thoughts and prayers DB world.

[Clyde]

W starts to taper back her pursuit, guess she figured I was back on the hook, at the same time 2 of the 4 nights she works she came home later than usual, as I stated earlier, I suspect she went to a bar after work, however without asking why she was so late, she made it a point to say she was working late.

The night after her late night out we are sitting on the couch, she cozys up to me, after a minute I caressed her inner thigh, she moves my hand away and coldly says I'm not in the mood, my response, "gosh, doesn't look like you are even willing to see if you can get in the mood." I drop it at that point as it was already too much pursuit on my behalf, I don't let it get to me.

She later comes to bed but does not touch me, no cuddles etc. It's like she was waiting for me to do so. I don't let on that I am even noticing.

I had been waiting on having the convo about fins, along with boundaries being crossed, etc...

M: What do you expect/want out of this M?
W: Are you serious, we've been having a great 2 weeks, this is all cause you aren't getting laid tonight.
M: Yeah the last 2 weeks have been nice on the surface, but we have several issues that developed in the last 2 months that are still festering, waiting to re-emerge. I bring it up now because we are not angry/arguing w/ one another, I thought maybe we'd have a better chance at getting to the bottom of it if we were not already arguing. No it has nothing to do with me not getting laid, that being said your response to my advance was poor, if I did that to you, it would upset you.
W: I'm sure if you got laid we would be cuddling right now.
M: No, as a matter of fact I've been battling with wether or not to have this convo, knowing that it was likely not going to go anywhere good. I'm already thinking I should have kept my mouth shut, I guess somewhere in the last two weeks I started having hopes for us again. Bottom line, I think it is pretty clear we are not on a good path to a lasting R. If you are not willing to hear my concerns that says a lot.

Fast forward...

M: I believe you want this to work, but something is in the way and I can not figure it out... I get some things take time, but can you tell me things half as good as they were 3-4 years ago?
W: things changed 2 years ago on the back patio.
M: There you go, we're getting somewhere...

(She is referring to the tree house argument, a quick recap: I had been working 100 weeks for 6 months... W encouraged me to do so, it was also around this time that I first started to feel unappreciated by my W. I decided to take a day off and build a tree house for D13, W says no. I ask why, she says if I'm going to take the day off I should be doing other projects around the house. I explain to her that I can only take one day off, other projects require more than one day - I can bump the tree house out in one day... besides the other projects are "work" and I need a break, the treehouse sounds like fun. W says "I'm tired of living in a $hit hole, I'm embarrassed of our house." (Our house is actually nice, yeah as a contractor I have some ongoing projects waiting to be completed). Anyhow that comment along w/ feeling unappreciated prior, hit a nerve. I responded, "I'm done busting my ass, I'm going to finish these contracts, and when I do, I'm going to be a SAHF, you can go be the breadwinner!" That started a several week no communication period, we finally went to MC, and seemed to have recovered.)

Got to go for now... I'll continue asap.

[Clyde]

M: So you are telling me you are still holding on to something that happened 2 years ago?
W: Well it happened
M: To the point I was making, you are holding resentment towards me... and beyond that, my comment was a reaction to something you said that hurt me, not only did I forgive you for what you said, I have told you many times that I could have handled my response better. Your resentment/bitterness towards me shows, it's that block that I have not been able to put my finger on.
W: I'm not bitter, I live in the moment.
M: You just said otherwise.
W: Well there is other things too, like when you brought that guitar.

(2 years ago I brought myself a guitar, I pulled a quick job over 2 nights to pay for it. The notion to do so was spawned from feeling unappreciated... realizing I have done nothing for myself since I met my W, yet always spoiled her. Anyhow she asked me how much it was, I told not to worry about it, I'm doing an extra job to cover it. I realize and have acknowledged to her that was not the best way to handle it. At the moment I justified the comment by her lack of appreciation.)

M: What have I ever brought for myself, I told you I should of communicated the purchase with you better, but yet you still bring up that guitar nearly every argument we have. I would think you would be happy I finally did something for myself.
W: I am happy you did that.
M: Then why do you b!tch about it every chance you get.
W: You just brought a mountain bike.
M: Yeah, after I sold a more expensive one, putting the extra money into the house.

I bring up several examples where I feel her bitterness has reared its head.

I bring up the jerky...
W: I did you a favor, tiu should not be eating it that much.
M: BS, that was not your intent, but since we are talking about excess consumption, you have been drinking way to much, you need to kick back. (She has not had a drink since...?????? Last night and tonight, she usually has at least one, but recently it's been excessive).
A few minutes of silence.

M: I want to talk about last month when you went out w/ your "sister" and blew me off.
W: Oh god here we go again, you know what I want, I want a manly man, who is secure enough to trust me out...
M: Really, I'm not even going to go into the trust you mentioned... you say you want a manly man?
W: Yup
M: Well here you go sweetheart, here's your manly man, GET THE F@CK OUT!!! I'm done with your $h!t, you have no respect for me, you have mistaken my kindness for weakness, you have mistaken my willingness to do anything to keep our family together as ignorance. I'm done!!!

Silence, I get up and go to the bathroom. When I come back she is posted up on the couch, looked like she was going to sleep out there, (last BD I asked her several times to come back to the Mbed, even after arguing, I think she thought I might do just that), I did not say anything about her being on the couch, she came to bed a few hours later.

I'm still kicking around my harsh response to her manly man comment, I don't feel bad as if yet.

[Clyde]

This a.m. I confirmed her work hours via a hand written memo she had logging her hours.

As I suspected, she was going somewhere after work. I woke her up before I left for work...

M: We need to discuss something.
W: What
M: the other night you told me you were working late, what did you really do.
W: I was working.
M: bs, I know exactly where you were.
W: I was at work.
M: I know exactly when you got off, I also now you were at a bar.
W: so I went to the bar w/ a girl from work
M: why did you have to lie about it, you know I wait up for you, you could of called and said you were going to get a drink.
W: you don't trust me, you would of told me not to go.
M: I don't trust you cause of how much you lie, and it's never failed, every time you have ended up in a bar there has been a lie associated with it. You need to go, did you look for an apartment yesterday?
W: no
M: you need to today.

[SteveLW]

Clyde, just a question. To see how your W might be thinking. But what I have found is that when my W is critical of my purchases it is because I have been critical of hers.

Do you nitpick her spending? If yes then that is an opportunity for a 180. If not, then yes she is being unfair.

Prior to BD I was always harping on how much my W would spend. She is notoriously an unfrugal shopper. I just told in my thread how last week she went to get snacks, breakfast and energy bar types, so that we'd have those as we are preparing to sell our house and move. She came home with upwards of 20 boxes of bars. In the past I would have criticized this as excessive. But in the big scheme of things it isn't that big of a deal.

Now, when I've bought a new gun or something else for my hunting, she would hold resentment like your W over the guitar. But it wasn't necessarily the purchase I made as much as it was the fact that I nitpicked her buying 3 boxes of cereal and then went and made a major purchase.

Anyway, in general I think you are doing the right thing. She tried to play the "a manly man would let me do what I want" card, and you called her on it. I would advise to remain calm when doing so. Keeping emotion out of it has a bigger impact.

"You think I should be more manly? Well, I think being manly is not putting up with deceit and lies. I would like you to move out until you can respect me enough to try to earn my trust back."

[Gordie]

Okay Clyde

You dropped your own bomb

What do you want now

You cannot control her

Your words will not make her come back

If she constantly lies to you not sure why you keep trying to talk to her

Do not tell me what you will say or what you want her to do

Tell me what Clyde will do

Actions speak louder than words

And yes she uses sex to manipulate you

Funny thing is you both openly talk about it

[Maybell]

Why do you think that just because her car did not move that she did not move?