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Link to old last post: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2777646&page=1

I know it did not reach 10 pages or 100 post on my last thread, but I did not want to continue it as the title would be a dead giveaway if the w was to see it, I worry she might be looking to find if I have been participating on a forum as such. Back in Feb., during an argument she mentioned something to the likes.

For those reasons along with the thought that I needed to take a break from posting and reading about all the tragic and hurtful experiences that you find here. I don't know that it was helping my frame of mind at that point. As things would not feel right in our M, I would find myself imagining the scenarios I was reading about here, playing out in our M. Starting lurking again the last few weeks, and as always, have picked up some valuable wisdom in the process.

I am doing good, started mountain biking again, (prior to kids, I rode daily), got all the kids on mountain bikes (they are loving it) and the w has a bike sitting waiting for her to join us. Also took up the hobby of Bonsai - I find it very calming, gratifying, and a big lesson in patience, lol. Been playing the guitar more even though the w does not condone...(I'll touch on that in a bit). I have drastically cut my hours working. I am more determined than ever to triumph in this life I have been blessed with, with or without the w by my side.

The w and I are okay... yes just okay, almost feel like I am in marital purgatory. When things are good - there good, even though the initial happiness the w was showing when we first R has worn off a bit. Intimacy is okay, not where it was prior to BD, and far from how I would like it. When a disagreement occurs, little is accomplished, we lack the tools necessary to navigate them effectively/w minimal unnecessary damage. I have gotten a lot better in these circumstances, but still have some wisdom to gain. The w is still not open to seek any type of counseling, at one point she seemed to be considering the idea of Retrouvaille, but has since shot down the idea... last time I mentioned it she gave a smart a$$ remark like "yeah, that sounds fun - sounds like I'll need a vacation after that!"

I have suspected hormones may be playing a part in all this, (after first BD and the w started acting differently, someone close to her that is older than us mentioned the possibility hormones might be playing in the scenario - her opinion on the whole sitch was that was likely the case.) Hormones has never been brought up to the w until a few weeks ago at which point she mentioned it. When it came up I suggested that she have it checked out, she refused saying that she would not put chemicals into her body. I said I understand, but having it checked out would at least let you know that something is in fact going on - doesn't mean you need to "put chemicals in your body". Nothing was said after that.

I still feel as though there is this block the w has when it comes to me. Its hard to explain but it is blatantly obvious...

For example, she is a massage therapist... we are going on month 6 of Reconcile, she gave me one massage (6 months ago) prior to R, even though I have asked, even though I have had a severe neck injury and back problems, my doctor has suggested I get weekly massages (She knows this). I massage her feet 4 -5 times a week for close to an hour at a time when she gets home from work. I've hinted a few times, I asked once to which her reply was (when does she have the time?), later that night she must have seen the absurdity in her remark - as we were going to bed she said something like, "You know what, you do need a massage - we'll make it happen." Needless to say, it never happened, I continued to give her foot massages but am staring to think why bother - spend that time doing something for me.

Another example is intimacy, its not where it was prior to BD, she does not initiate it, she shuts it down 60% of the time, and makes stupid comments like "I get there a few times within 5 minutes, you need to start hurrying up". We used to take our time and make love. She used to go out of her way to turn me on, its very seldom now. I have dropped hints, been romantic, candles - flowers, wine, etc, made sure the house was clean (not just once or twice - consistently) all to no avail.

Another example, during R talks and since R I have said time and time again, we need to get out together, date night if you will, dosen't happen. Finally 2 weeks ago, I brought it up again, told her we just need to do it. I lined up a babysitter, started looking for a show to go to, she said no to going to a show... said lets just go somewhere local, get a few drinks. As we were heading out, she said she wanted to be back before the kids go to bed, I said "thats in 2 hours, doesn't give us much time." She said she misses the kid's bed time a few times a week cause of work, doesn't want to miss it tonight. We went and enjoyed a few drinks, stayed out passed the kids bed time anyhow... she then picked a fight.... Yes - SHE picked a fight. I started to fall for it but pulled myself out of it... Somehow she brought up the "sister" and how she used to go to the PlayBoy mansion for there events, she explained that the "sister would pay $90 to submit an application to attend the events/parties and got chosen many times" my response was I am sure glad you never did that, the dynamics of our R would be a lot different if existent at all. She begun to defend the sister, I said what does it matter, I don't care about her and beyond that the PlayBoy mansion is no more, Hugh died! She then went on to mention local events that were organized in the same manner... mentioned the name of one and said the "lady's wear Teddys (lingerie) to it. What if I want to get all dolled up and go with them?" I responded, " I think you know the answer to that, I want no part of a m where that goes on." I put money on the table and told her I would meet her in the truck and walked out. On the way home she started to say, "see, you don't trust me going out with my friends". I stopped the truck and said "are you kidding me, you want to go out wearing a Teddy? When is the last time you wore one for me? Its been years! Even if you did wear one for me I am still not okay with you going out in one!" Her reply was, "I don't know what you are talking about... I don't even know what a Teddy is... I never said that". I replied I am done with this conversation, I'm not doing this." We went home, I journaled in a book I have, she fell asleep on the couch, later came to bed about 4 in the morning. Next day she apologized right away, (I was shocked, she never apologizes). She said she was being stupid and that there is no way she would ever go much less want to go to something like that. That night she came on to me and we had amazing sex, she went out of her way to turn me on...... So to the point of bringing this one up, after contemplating why she would pull such a stunt (blow up the good time we were having) the reason I keep going back to is that block she has towards me. I don't understand it.


The sun still rises, even though the pain.

Married: 10 Together: 17
M:40 W:37
D:13, S 7, S:5
1st Bomb dropped: 4/20/17 2nd Bomb dropped: 6/6/17
Separated: 7/26/17
W moved back home: 12/1/17
Joined: Jul 2011
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Hi Clyde,

I don't know your whole sitch, I just read the post above. In my case, I was piecing for a couple years and then things blew up again and ended.

Based on your description above, you've got a few things going on. For one, relationships reach an equilibrium. Its when each person knows their part, what's expected of them, who wants the relationship more, who wants sex more, etc. etc.

When you get into piecing, that equilibrium goes out the window because it was associated with your prior relationship, and for a time, its very uncomfortable as you seek to find a new equilibrium. Ideally, you'll land in a place that was much better than where you landed before. In my case, exW kept pulling us back to the prior equilibrium that originally she was unhappy with, but obviously she needed something from it.

When we reconciled, we agreed to do a certain number of things to invest in our relationship. After a month she announced unilaterally that she was going to stop doing a couple of them, then a month later she announced she was going to stop doing a couple more etc. until they had all been stripped away and we were right back where we were pre-BD. Each time I would push back she would convince me it wasn't necessary, she was in a better place now, blah blah blah.

It looks like, in your sitch, you have some of this going on where your new equilibrium has not been reached and you are both testing limits and trying to figure out how much territory you're each going to capture in your new land battle.

The second thing that screams through your post above is that W is holding most of the power in the relationship right now. She's "one up" and you are "one down". You're giving massages, she isn't. You're making plans, she's making excuses. You're extending invites and she's declining.

When things get too bad, like when she threatened to go to a teddy party and talked about the Playboy mansion, you pushed back and established a boundary, and she backed off and respected it.

The best thing that's going to help you navigate this phase is embracing conflict. There's a great book you should look up called "Rock the Boat".

Effectively it says this -- for a relationship to evolve and survive the test of time, both people in it need to be capable and willing to walk away from it, and each of you needs to believe that is the case.

When things happen that are not okay with you, you need to bring the issue to a head. Either she can agree with your request, she can offer a counter-proposal and negotiate, or you walk away.

If she doesn't believe you will walk away if she doesn't engage with you on this issue, then its not even worth having the conversation because you're effectively just begging her for something.

Forcing these points of conflict causes the relationship to evolve. If the relationship doesn't evolve, resentment will build up and you will inevitably gradually spin apart until things blow up anyway. It's rip of the bandaid or endure a death by 1000 cuts.

This may seem harsh or unreasonable, or like it devalues marriage, and obviously you can't make ultimatums any time anything happens that upsets you. The point, however, is that if something is repeatedly happening that is making you unhappy, you *will* inevitably get resentful. When you get resentful, you cannot be a good relationship partner, so conflict avoidance can't work.

You need to spend some time thinking about your non-negotiables. It sounds like you need some relationship counseling, it sounds like you need some recreational companionship, it sounds like you need some date nights, and it sounds like you need a good sex life.

Figure out what you really aren't willing to live without, and then tell her the way that things have been going isn't working for you. Spell out what you need, and let her respond. She needs to tell from your demeanor that you are serious as a heart attack and won't just accept the status quo.

If you're not ready to put all your chips in the middle you won't be able to win. I've traveled the road you're headed down and it doesn't end well my friend.

Acc


Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced
M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced)
In a New Relationship: 3/2015
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Accuray,

Thanks for the advice, I agree there is a power struggle going on, one that I helped create.

I know you are unfamiliar with my sitch so i will touch base on exactly what I mean as I have been intending to write about this (in more detail than I have in the past) so that others can learn from my mistakes.

From the moment of BD I made all the wrong mistakes, pursued, pleaded etc, etc... I even made the declaration that my w would always be welcomed back - that I would continue to set a place mat at the table for her. I reminded her of this often until I finally started to grasp DB'ing, and even at that point I did not retract the statement. This no doubt was very empowering for the w.

First wake up call for the w during our separation - I reclaimed the master bedroom, cleaned, rearranged it, got some house plants in it, took her space in the closet to store my guitars, took pictures of her down (left the pics in the rest of the house for the kiddos sake). It did not take long for her to notice... one of the days when she was dropping the kids off she must of seen it walking down the hall from one of their rooms, I walked into the master bedroom and my w was sitting in on the edge of the bed just looking around the room, she looked lost and sad, I definitely think it was a reality blow.

Second wake up call, perhaps the most profound prior to R. She and I were having a R talk, she said something to the likes of she does not see how I could re-enter the MR with no resentment for all that happened. My response was something to the like of, "You know it is a lot to digest, and my feelings about it go up and down at times, I find the best way to look at it as something that is going to make me stronger. Yes I wish it did not happen, it is the hardest thing I've gone through in life, but it is and will make me stronger, and for that I've got to thank you." She looked at me with a raised eyebrow, I continued, "No seriously, thank you, I am much better having endured these tribulations, and while I'm not out of the woods yet, I'm not going to let this experience have anymore negative effects on me. I'm okay with it all, I always thought I would go through this life with you at my side, but I now see that may not happen, and I'm alright with that, I've accepted it." I could see the look of shock on her face.

Those to instances happened within the 3 weeks prior to reconcile.

Post reconcile (I journaled about this in a previous thread, but will recap as it seems fitting) the w threatened the r, saying that if did not stop talking about an issue (that should of had no bearing on the vitality of the r), that "I was going to ruin a good thing". I told her that I was not only ok ending the r, but would prefer it at this point, and this time there would be no place mat at the table for her. This hit her, she cried for the first time since BD, she was not herself. I engaged in several more pointless arguments/convos at that time which likely diluted what I said (thanks V, and others for helping me see this), but she did take notice I feel.

I almost restated it the other night in a firmer stance than which I did (when I told her "I want no part of a m where that goes on.") But I am trying to be careful not to constantly bring it up everytime a boundary gets crossed, I already stated it, don't want the words to be hollow.

After the argument about the Teddy parties and the night of amazing sex, I tried to initiate sex a few nights later, she shut it down rather cold. I've since not approached her for sex since and things have been rather cold around here. We have not been cuddling on the couch, no spooning at night, perhaps because I'm the one to always initiate those things...no foot massages,no flowers, I don't know if this is the right course for me to take, but right now I am not feeling it. Convo's are minimal, otherwise my demeanor around the house has been normal. Its been about 2 weeks of this.


The sun still rises, even though the pain.

Married: 10 Together: 17
M:40 W:37
D:13, S 7, S:5
1st Bomb dropped: 4/20/17 2nd Bomb dropped: 6/6/17
Separated: 7/26/17
W moved back home: 12/1/17
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 473
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Your wife is not doing "the work." And you are not requiring her to do, "the work." When you decided to reconcile, did you have any "must haves?" Or were you simply so relieved to have her back that you allowed things/issues to be swept under the rug? Unless you two have a plan that you both are committed to, I don't see you as truly piecing... You are maintaining the status quo... There is no thriving in your relationship...

When my H allowed me to come back, he would never have put up with me behaving as your wife is currently behaving...

--artista

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I totally did those things Artista talks about in her first paragraph when my husband returned the first time. What a mistake! There must be other books or marriage counseling or resources to help people who are piecing to get through it with more successful outcomes. DB's focus doesn't seem to be on the aftermath when couples reunite. That requires an extension of DB and there must be a good roadmap for it out there. Clyde I really wish and hope you can get through this difficult time and find a way to make you reconciliation sustainable.

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I have to clarify something... Nicole, you reminded me that my H and I had some false starts where he didn't require me to do the work... Not until our final attempt did he have some boundaries that he was serious about... And he was able to do that because he was not afraid of losing me... He knew he would be fine without me because he had truly let go...

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Quote:
Second wake up call, perhaps the most profound prior to R. She and I were having a R talk, she said something to the likes of she does not see how I could re-enter the MR with no resentment for all that happened. My response was something to the like of, "You know it is a lot to digest, and my feelings about it go up and down at times, I find the best way to look at it as something that is going to make me stronger. Yes I wish it did not happen, it is the hardest thing I've gone through in life, but it is and will make me stronger, and for that I've got to thank you." She looked at me with a raised eyebrow, I continued, "No seriously, thank you, I am much better having endured these tribulations, and while I'm not out of the woods yet, I'm not going to let this experience have anymore negative effects on me. I'm okay with it all, I always thought I would go through this life with you at my side, but I now see that may not happen, and I'm alright with that, I've accepted it." I could see the look of shock on her face.


I don't know that that was a wake up call. It may have made the road back easy for her. I mean, why wouldn't it? But, easy isn't always the best way.

Frankly, I strongly disagree with the H thanking his W for her waywardness! I say this b/c if a bunch of LBH's see this and decide to start thanking their WW for cheating, lying, and tearing the family apart......they are going to be sadly disappointed in the outcome. If anything, it will be a big turn off, which will show up in the bedroom.

You pretty much took all responsibility off her back and put it all squarely on yourself. Why expect her to work when she thinks she's made you a better man?

BTW, the more you repeat some statement to a WW, the less she hears. I wish this was a point every LBH would grasp. Please stop restating things to her!


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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So you got some good feedback Clyde, your fan base here seems to think you're not really piecing but are instead enjoying a temporary stay of execution -- that was the same thing I went through. It was bad, it got better for a while and appeared to be piecing, and then it all fell apart.

Hindsight being 20/20, I think you need to be more demanding and definitive about what *you* need for this marriage to be good (versus adequate) for you. If both of your needs are being met, and you know it, you won't be living looking over your shoulder for the next time this is going to come crumbling down. You'll be able to relax and truly enjoy your partnership.

As with many stages of DB, this probably means making things worse before they get better. For someone who has been through a lot of pain, that's a really tough proposition I know.

The great news here is that when she knows you're at a walkaway point, she pays attention.

Acc


Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced
M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced)
In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 136
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Originally Posted By: artista
Your wife is not doing "the work." And you are not requiring her to do, "the work." When you decided to reconcile, did you have any "must haves?" Or were you simply so relieved to have her back that you allowed things/issues to be swept under the rug?


Arista,

Yes and no... I the night before she decided to move back home I was very clear about what I expected of her as far as the "sister" goes. (For those new to my sitch, the "sister" interfered in our M every opportunity she could, she is a sociopath and is as toxic as they come... my W always conducted herself differently when in her presence or at her ill advice.) I wrongly assumed the rest of the relationship details would fall back into place.

Originally Posted By: NicoleR
I totally did those things Artista talks about in her first paragraph when my husband returned the first time. What a mistake!


Spot on Nicole, its become quite evident in my sitch as you can see.


Originally Posted By: NicoleR
There must be other books or marriage counseling or resources to help people who are piecing to get through it with more successful outcomes. DB's focus doesn't seem to be on the aftermath when couples reunite. That requires an extension of DB and there must be a good roadmap for it out there. Clyde I really wish and hope you can get through this difficult time and find a way to make you reconciliation sustainable.


This forum has to be the most valuable/helpful resource I have come across in dealing with every stage of this roller coaster. Thank you for the well wishes!

Originally Posted By: sandi2
I don't know that that was a wake up call. It may have made the road back easy for her. I mean, why wouldn't it? But, easy isn't always the best way.

Frankly, I strongly disagree with the H thanking his W for her waywardness! I say this b/c if a bunch of LBH's see this and decide to start thanking their WW for cheating, lying, and tearing the family apart......they are going to be sadly disappointed in the outcome. If anything, it will be a big turn off, which will show up in the bedroom.


BTW, the more you repeat some statement to a WW, the less she hears. I wish this was a point every LBH would grasp. Please stop restating things to her!


Sandi, I agree with you 100%, I only emboldened her and her actions by thanking her. Maybe it was NGS/ passive aggressiveness, its almost like I had to soften the blow of the final sentence/point I was making to her - "I always thought I would go through this life with you at my side, but I now see that may not happen, and I'm alright with that, I've accepted it." and while the preceding points (thanking her) did not help my cause in any way, the final point about being alright/accepting that our MR done stilled carried some weight, I could see the look in her face when I said it.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
You pretty much took all responsibility off her back and put it all squarely on yourself. Why expect her to work when she thinks she's made you a better man?


Again, with the luxury of hind sight, and having felt like I am the only one putting in the work many time since R, I agree with you 100% Sandi

As far as restating things... it is one of the many things I would change in my actions going back to BD. Hopefully others can learn from my mistakes.


The sun still rises, even though the pain.

Married: 10 Together: 17
M:40 W:37
D:13, S 7, S:5
1st Bomb dropped: 4/20/17 2nd Bomb dropped: 6/6/17
Separated: 7/26/17
W moved back home: 12/1/17
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 136
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Clyde Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Accuray
I think you need to be more demanding and definitive about what *you* need for this marriage to be good (versus adequate) for you. If both of your needs are being met, and you know it, you won't be living looking over your shoulder for the next time this is going to come crumbling down. You'll be able to relax and truly enjoy your partnership.


As I mentioned a few post back, I stopped initiating everything, no foot massages, no cuddling, no flowers, no sex, I went about my business in the house otherwise normal. After close to 3 weeks she finally started to slowly ask me questions...

First was about cuddling, we were going to bed and I asked her to close the window a little as it was cold outside, she looked at me and said, "yeah I probably should, seeing as no one is going to keep me warm, since you don't cuddle me anymore." I told her that no one was stopping her from cuddling me. She came to bed and put her arm around me for a few minutes then rolled over, I then cuddled her for the rest of the night.

A few nights later she got home from work and put her legs up on me, she then said "I remember when I used to get foot massages every night." I asked her if she wanted one, she sarcastically said "oh no, thats ok". I proceeded to give her a foot massage anyhow. When I was done she gave me a kiss and hug and cuddled me on the couch for a while. We later went to bed and were intimate, She came to bed in the buff which is always the sign for sex, however I still had to initiate it.

Could this be the turn around????

The next day I casually said "Hey, how about tonight, instead of me giving you a foot massage, you give me a back massage?" It got a little awkward, she said something like "sure I can give you a back rub, its not like there is ever time to set up the table and give you a full on massage". I replied, "If you don't make time, there is never going to be time." and left the ball in her court.

A few nights later I approached her for sex, I got the good ole' "I"m too tired".

My massage never happened, nor much less even a back rub.

I went a day or two not saying much, not initiating anything. I finally flat out told her that sex needed to be more of a priority in our R, she started giving excuses, I started to debate the excuses for about 15 seconds and stopped myself, I simply told her "Bottom line, sex needs to be more of a priority, I don't like the way it is now - it is not how I see a healthy relationship, and don't want the rest of my life to be like this. To my surprise she agreed.

I also told her that I would really appreciate a massage from time to time, even if she was not a massage therapist, any compassionate person in a M would see there loved one stiff/soar and try to render some relief to them. Her answer was mediocre, saying "Sure, I'd love to give you a massage, it's just got to be before 9p.m., otherwise I am to beat." I see her point about being to beat, but did she really have to say that?

She seemed to be in a good mood after our talk, I was watching to see if she was going to be mad or quiet... she was not.

A few hours later we were sitting on the patio, she told me she was looking at booking a hotel for us at the end of the month, do I know of any shows going on then? (We were supposed to do this a few months back for my B-day but we both got sick along w/ the kiddos so it got cancelled, I figured that was the end of it.) I feel this is a good sign, thoughtful of her.

Later that night she came on to me and we had an amazing sex. She has not shut me down since our discussion, and has been showing more affection. She has yet to offer up a massage, not sure if I should just ask, or wait for her to offer.


The sun still rises, even though the pain.

Married: 10 Together: 17
M:40 W:37
D:13, S 7, S:5
1st Bomb dropped: 4/20/17 2nd Bomb dropped: 6/6/17
Separated: 7/26/17
W moved back home: 12/1/17
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