Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 9 of 11 1 2 7 8 9 10 11
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,669
O
OrangeK Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
O
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,669
Originally Posted By: Joseph9


If you choose to stand and essentially be in LIMBO you really have to let her go and move on with your life. If you don't and continue to hang on her every word, her every action and follow her on SM it will be very rough for you and you will delay the healing process.




Joseph,
I am doing exactly that. I expect we will get divorced, i have accepted this. I never wanted to get divorced, and i feel she needs to be the one to take responsibility for her actions, lies and decisions. If the judge denies the motion to put on hold, then i will follow that and move forward with it. If it gets accepted, i am going to continue on with MY life doing MY thing and getting MYSELF and my son ahead and healing.
If she chooses to do nothing and remain in Limbo, so be it.
If she chooses to take the initiative and File D herself, So be it.
If she chooses to keep her head in the sand for another year and discuss R, so be it. Ill listen.

All i plan on doing is whatever makes me heal and feel better.
Her actions, choices, decisions and feelings are hers to manage and live with.
If she approaches me as a friend, ill be friendly.
If she approaches me to talk about R, i will stick to my boundaries but listen and be available.
If she stays with OM, whatever.

Im not 100% there yet, but moving expeditiously to where I feel I need to be to be the best me.
That is my only REAL goal, Improvement in happiness and quality of life for myself and my boy. That's it.

Thanks for keeping me on track!


M: 35, EX-W: 3, S:4
All Divorce Proceedings Complete - Oct 18
-----------------------------------------------------
2nd EX - Was Engaged - Diagnosed BPD
2 Major breakups.
2 Rebounds
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 4,560
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 4,560
Hope is yours to hang to as long as you wish....don't let it stop you though from moving forward. As you get stronger, more confident and cultivate that life of your own continuing to stand might not be as easy. If you stand long enough you will probably start to wonder why and question if your doing the right thing. Early on it is much easier to say you won't file and most folks on the site would tell you whether you are D or not the emotions you have to process are still the same.....having a piece of paper in your hand won't change it.

You are on the right path


Married 14, Together 17
M: 44, W: 43, D: 8, D: 6
M: 46, W: 45. D: 10. D: 8 (CUR)
Bomb Dropped: 5/28/2017
Separation Date: 6/17/2017
Divorce Filed: 2/7/2018
Divorce Final: 4/12/2018
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
I'm going to respond to your questions from the usual or typical WW. However, I don't think your W is all that typical.

Quote:
1.) WW Would get very mad when I would refer to OM as "her boyfriend"


Well how did you expect her to react? Were you trying to make her feel shame, embarrassment, hurt, or what? What context did you use it? Without knowing any details, I would guess it appeared very passive-aggressive. You used it to provoke some type of emotion in your W, didn't you? So, don't act so surprised she got mad.

Quote:
2.) before i learned DB techniques, I had been included some photo's from our wedding in a letter i gave her at our last MC meeting. She also got very mad about this.


Again, you were trying to get a certain response from her. One of the 37 rules refers to things like showing old M photos, or try to get the spouse to read books on M help or watch a video, etc. It is pursuit, and it is a huge turn-off to the WW. It makes the H look needy. You have to see the WW as if there has never been a relationship between you, and she is someone you've just met. Would you have been applying that kind of emotional pressure to some woman you've just met? No, b/c she would run for the hills.

Quote:
3.) she changed a while back from calling me normal pet names to using my first name, which i mentioned bothered me and she continued to do it. She NEVER referred to me this way in the past.


It's the WW's way of emotionally distancing the H from her. Her loving feelings are gone. Would a woman use pet names if she was not in an romantic, intimate relationship? It is also so the H will not make more of it than she means. Like some H's will say, "If she had no feelings for me, why would she call me by pet names?". The H will strain at every nat that flies his way. I mean, I wouldn't even smile, b/c I didn't want my H thinking, "Yipee! Things are back on again"! I just wanted him to leave me alone, so I kept things very cool (and I don't mean Fonzie cool).

Quote:
4.) Why continue to deny / lie about OM in Jan when she knew i was fully aware of the situation? I literally caught her at OM's house on her day off, like red handed. to deny/lie at that point defies logic IMHO, Why do it?


That's a question for a psychologist. IMHO, it's not b/c she is in self denial about having an affair. She may be in denial as to the truth surrounding the circumstances that led to the affair and where it is going. That's due to her fantasy. She has her reason for denying in the face of hard evidence.....even getting caught red handed. I can guarantee you that in her thinking....denying it is what she sees as her best option at that time. The WW will always put her best benefit above everything else, due to the selfishness that drives her. By the time she is having an A, her mindset is in such a crazy state, that there's nothing about her that is logical.

Quote:
Looking back now after learning a lot about the mindset of a WW, would you say these are examples of her projecting her guilt on me when i presented her with confrontation of things she had knowingly done wrong, and had compartmentalized and put away so she didnt have to deal/feel them? Did i bring these to the surface and "offend" her by reminding her of what she did wrong, even though my intention was to garner some sort of sympathy (again, i had no clue how counter productive this was at the time)


Maybe, IDK. I believe there is a difference in knowing you are guilty and feeling guilty. In the WW mindset, she feels justified b/c of all the disrespect, resentment, and rebellious feelings she has toward her H, and/or the M. So, how can you feel guilty when you believe you are justified? It gets complicated when trying to give an answer to this question. A lot of WW's have a need to justify leaving the M to her parents, grown children, old friends......(people who know the H. Except, she usually doesn't try to convince her MIL & FIL). So, she demonizes her H, to her parents, etc., to persuad them she is justified in leaving. Now get this.........she believes it's his fault that she had an A. It comes from deep resentment and bitterness. Way down deep in her heart, she knows she is responsible for her own actions.....but she doesn't want to claim responsibility. That's the part I see as self denial. Her entire fantasy is self denial of the truth. She wants to do what she wants.....and come out smelling like a rose. Is she projecting guilt on you? I don't know. I was a WW, but I don't how to answer a lot of questions H's have. How can she blame you and project guilt at the same time? IDK, I'm not a psychologist. It's too deep and complicated.

IMHO, the way you and your W got together is not typical of the average couple. I mean you engaged in sex within the first 2-3 hours of the first date, and you M her without really knowing who you were getting. You have been together a considerably short period of time. So, how much disrespect and resentment she has built, IDK. It's not like being M for decades and then she rebels. Rebellion is a big part of the wayward behavior. If you have any idea what she is rebelling against, it might give you a clue, IDK.

I'm guessing there is something about her that has been kept hidden from you all this time. Although she had not had a pegnacy or give birth (that you know, anyway), there are too many things about her past she refuses to reveal to her own H. The way she had picked you out, saying she was in love with you.....before really meeting you. There is something that just has a wrong feeling about the entire situation. I know you love her and my words may be offensive, but I am speaking from my heart and for concern for you and your child. Whatever it is in her past, her parents won't reveal it, either. So, I feel this is more than just the typical WW case. I'm not saying she's not wayward. I'm saying I think she hiding a big secret, and her parents knows what it is and that's why they are covering for her. I think some of her behavior issues are a pattern.

Going into a M with secrets and refusing to be open and honest with her H, is destruction waiting to happen. If there is a chance of this M surviving, I think it will have to come through her willingness to reveal everything and to get serious therapy.

((hugs))


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,669
O
OrangeK Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
O
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,669
Sandi.

So much to say in response. After i put the little guy to bed im gonna crack open the laptop and lay it out.
You are so on point with this last post its scary. Ill elaborate asap.


M: 35, EX-W: 3, S:4
All Divorce Proceedings Complete - Oct 18
-----------------------------------------------------
2nd EX - Was Engaged - Diagnosed BPD
2 Major breakups.
2 Rebounds
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,669
O
OrangeK Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
O
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,669
Originally Posted By: sandi2


Well how did you expect her to react? Were you trying to make her feel shame, embarrassment, hurt, or what? What context did you use it? Without knowing any details, I would guess it appeared very passive-aggressive. You used it to provoke some type of emotion in your W, didn't you? So, don't act so surprised she got mad.

I suppose that makes sense. I suppose I was saying it as a means of getting her to admit to something, to acknowledge the affair relationship beyond the BS "one night stand" story I had been fed.
I'm not surprised she got mad, but a bit surprised as to HOW mad this made her. Showing legitimate anger is very uncommon for her. She is the queen of non confrontational passive aggressiveness.



Again, you were trying to get a certain response from her. One of the 37 rules refers to things like showing old M photos, or try to get the spouse to read books on M help or watch a video, etc. It is pursuit, and it is a huge turn-off to the WW. It makes the H look needy. You have to see the WW as if there has never been a relationship between you, and she is someone you've just met. Would you have been applying that kind of emotional pressure to some woman you've just met? No, b/c she would run for the hills.

Not much to say in response to this other than guilty as charged, a lesson painfully learned, and not to be repeated. Had I not found this forum that pattern of behavior on my behalf would have likely continued for some time.


It's the WW's way of emotionally distancing the H from her. Her loving feelings are gone. Would a woman use pet names if she was not in an romantic, intimate relationship? It is also so the H will not make more of it than she means. Like some H's will say, "If she had no feelings for me, why would she call me by pet names?". The H will strain at every nat that flies his way. I mean, I wouldn't even smile, b/c I didn't want my H thinking, "Yipee! Things are back on again"! I just wanted him to leave me alone, so I kept things very cool (and I don't mean Fonzie cool).

Yea, this definitely happened on an epic scale. "edge of the marital bed" to the max. She actually got to the point where she would cringe at my touch, like just to show a moment of affection before we went to bed. actually freaking cringed.

That's a question for a psychologist. IMHO, it's not b/c she is in [i]self denial about having an affair. She may be in denial as to the truth surrounding the circumstances that led to the affair and where it is going. That's due to her fantasy. She has her reason for denying in the face of hard evidence.....even getting caught red handed. I can guarantee you that in her thinking....denying it is what she sees as her best option at that time. The WW will always put her best benefit above everything else, due to the selfishness that drives her. By the time she is having an A, her mindset is in such a crazy state, that there's nothing about her that is logical.
[/i]

Yea that makes sense. Fantasy is the perfect way to put it. I can even remember before the affair or anything my mother saying to me that my wife "expected a fantasy life, like she would pop open the windows and birds would fly in and do her housework for her while singing just like Snow White. That girl watched too much Disney movies as a kid".
I think fantasy plays a huge role for her, like the "fantasy" marriage she had in her mind didn't come to fruition (she clearly waited forever[i] to see if it would....smh) and when it didnt she began seeking the next thing. Then she created a new fantasy with OM.
**SPEAKING OF OM**
my son has been saying odd stuff, like OM may not be around as much or something. Its clear my son isnt really super keen on him anymore. at first i had to grind my teeth as my 3yo told me about how OM was his friend and got him this or that, but I think my son may have realized OM is "in dadas spot" so to speak? he now barely mentions him, and once randomly just blurted out "i dont like OM" i don't ask my son to tell me anything about when he is over with W, hes 3 he doesn't need people interrogating him. He is chatty though and judging by some of the things he has said things may be less than ideal in Affairland. If not, par for the course right? Doesn't really make a difference to me right now. If so, serves them right.

I hate to see my son going through this termoil and confusion, and I have to move again soon so he will get out of sorts AGAIN. He doesn't like the moving around.
Poor guy....I feel like I'm not the Dad I should be because of this.
He was a glowing ball of infinite happiness when W and I were together. This has hurt him profoundly and if W can't see that than she is truly lost IMO.


[i]So, she demonizes her H, to her parents, etc., to persuad them she is justified in leaving. Now get this.........she believes it's his fault that she had an A. It comes from deep resentment and bitterness. Way down deep in her heart, she knows she is responsible for her own actions.....but she doesn't want to claim responsibility. That's the part I see as self denial. Her entire fantasy is self denial of the truth. She wants to do what she wants.....and come out smelling like a rose.


Okayyyy now. We get to the meat of the issue here Sandi.
The demonization began a good deal before i knew about it for sure. Her Mom and Dad were first, her best "friend" (someone who has since admitted to me that she has been lied to and manipulated by W in the past, as they were once roommates), and eventually even some of my friends, not super close ones who would have told me right off the bat.
"She believes its H's fault she had an affair"
Sandi, She literally told me that VERBATIM.
I ignored her needs, didn't support her, took her for granted. etc.
I'm by no means perfect, but the scope of the things she ALL THE SUDDEN decided to voice, once the A was exposed. Years worth of resentments never mentioned by her in the past. Bottled up disagreements and pet peeves just culminated in a volcanic outburst of lies, adultery, selfishness and flat out immaturity.

We have to co parent for the next 15 years. She can't hide behind self denial forever.
How she sleeps at night boggles the mind.



IMHO, the way you and your W got together is not typical of the average couple. I mean you engaged in sex within the first 2-3 hours of the first date, and you M her without really knowing who you were getting. You have been together a considerably short period of time. So, how much disrespect and resentment she has built, IDK. It's not like being M for decades and then she rebels. Rebellion is a big part of the wayward behavior. If you have any idea what she is rebelling against, it might give you a clue, IDK.

I think she rebelled against the aforementioned failed fantasy marriage. Or the perceived loss of a social life or lifestyle she all the sudden decided she wasn't ready to give up?

I still can't for the life of me figure out where the secret squirrel pregnancy fits into all this.
The only thing I have to go on there is that her EXBF had a son about 6mos before she got pregnant, but that seems like a stretch, but she PLANNED that hidden pregnancy. We had a "pregnancy scare" before that, and she was on BC, and showed me the pill packets and everything. Once i found out about our son, she told me she had been taking the BC the entire time, and had me convinced that it was just some fluke, or she took antibiotics back when we conceived and didnt know, etc. I bought it hook line and sinker for years. Only when her Exbest"friend" told me that the two of them had discussed the pregnancy back in July that I had my eyes opened.

I'm guessing there is something about her that has been kept hidden from you all this time. Although she had not had a pegnacy or give birth (that you know, anyway), there are too many things about her past she refuses to reveal to her own H. The way she had picked you out, saying she was in love with you.....before really meeting you. There is something that just has a wrong feeling about the entire situation. I know you love her and my words may be offensive, but I am speaking from my heart and for concern for you and your child. Whatever it is in her past, her parents won't reveal it, either. So, I feel this is more than just the typical WW case. I'm not saying she's not wayward. I'm saying I think she hiding a big secret, and her parents knows what it is and that's why they are covering for her. I think some of her behavior issues are a pattern.
This is the paragraph where you really hit home Sandi.
You literally clued in on something I've had suspicions on but haven't yet voiced. I agree. Something DID Happen to her, early on and it effected her ability to process emotions properly. I truly believe this. I have had this suspicion for some time, and just haven't voiced it here because of its potentially sensitive nature, depending on what IT is, whatever happened to her. I have guesses and ideas, but they are just that. Speculation, which leads to assumption and I'm not going down that dark and thorny path.

Again you hit the nail on the head with the precision of a surgeon when you said her parents know and are covering for her.
This is 100% the case, i can't really explain here correctly how i know this to be true. It comes out in their body language, tone of voice and lying tells, but it is definitely the case. No doubt in my mind.

Which brings me to the deep dark core of the conflict in which I face.
I know I've already laid out my ideals and morals regarding marriage and spoken vows in an earlier post, so I wont reiterate that.
If you haven't already guessed im a bit of a nerd.
I am a fan of history, and fantasy and the classic chivalrous knight type character traits always appealed to me.
My philosophy so far for GAL'in has been "Be a warrior. A Warrior is strong, but just. Loyal, honorable, dedicated, resilient, indomitable, and honest"
A mans (or a woman's, just using the expression) word means A LOT to me. Something i think holds FAR too little weight in today's age.
A spoken vow meant a $h!7load to me. Like A LOT. I write as a hobby. i really put a lot of thought into my vows.
That being said, my conflict is this.
I made a spoken vow to a woman to love her forever, no matter what.
Sickness and health.
SICKNESS.
she is very likely SICK.
How do i justifiably leave the woman i spoke an oath to, when she is sick?
That played a big role in putting the D on hold for me. That is what I don't want to do it.
If it means I need to sit in Limbo before she has some sort of breakthrough and seeks therapy, under her own decision and resolve, and begins to heal the way she actually needs to, then as her husband i feel it is my duty to be there when that happens.
I really feel like there are two people in there sometimes......and it scares the cr@p out of me. real honest fear. I know the woman i fell in love with. She was THE SUN. She was SPRING, the reflection of fireworks on a glass-smooth lake, midsummer. Everything in the world that was delicious, comforting, compassionate, loving and lovable all smooshed into one tiny adorable little woman. I cannot begin to describe how radiant and amazing she was, and now there is this stranger, this alien, who looks like my Helen of Troy. I just cannot fathom the depth and brevity of her changes. Granted her behaviors spanned pretty much all of 2017, and i have a hard time believing it was randomly her New Years resolution that year to carpet bomb our lives, the change was abrupt, I just didn't SEE it until it was way too late, fool that I am.

Which brings us to the other edge of the sword.

All that said above, do I just walk? for the sake of my sanity and to cultivate the best parenting scenario I can at my home for my son and I, do i just run from the explosion that was my life like some Slo-Mo action sequence, and stunt roll into the next chapter of my life looking like a BAMF? That's the mindset I've put myself in to GAL for the most part, but I cannot seem to let go of the things mentioned above for real and true.
I do love her. Deeply. Infinitely, as I spoke in my vows in fact.
I have been abused. Emotionally abused and manipulated, and lied to and betrayed by the woman I swore my soul to. Less than 6 months after having sworn that soul no less.
Forgive my history references, but I called her My Helen of Troy, as I did IRL.
I am not Menelaus. I am Paris. I know this.
But I have been ABUSED. BETRAYED. LIED TO BY THE WOMAN WHO I GAVE ALL I HAD TO.
When does Honor become foolishness?
When does Dedication become blind ignorance?
When does Strength become crushing, pitiless weakness and defeat?
How much will it take to break the resolve of my vows?
My wife My well be SICK.
I lack the power to heal her if she is.
I even lack the power to make her heal herself.
I Learned this lesson the hard way, watching my brother fight addiction for 5 years, and lost him abruptly after a year of sobriety.
I desire her to be healed, whole, happy, prosperous and worry free.
With or without me.
I know DB'ing says not to look into your WW and so on, but it happens and we all do it.
I've been doing good, recently.
But what I saw before, and mentioned in prior posts, she looks miserable in most of what i have seen.
Tired and forcing her smiles. I say this as "unbiased" as i can, im not trying to look for her to be unhappy. I hated to see her like that when i did. It was NOT the bees knees.
This isnt the result she wanted or planned for.

So there it is.

Honor my vow, wait in Limbo and just GAL and do my thing while I wait to see if she comes around or seeks help in any way?

Or Bail?

and that is what i truly flip flop back and forth on.
There. Now I've said EVERYTHING in my sitch.
All dem bones be out the closet now.


Going into a M with secrets and refusing to be open and honest with her H, is destruction waiting to happen. If there is a chance of this M surviving, I think it will have to come through her willingness to reveal everything and to get serious therapy.

Yes. Yes it will. One can only hope.
This will sound like a stretch coming from someone who isn't religious.
Can you pray for her?
Her family is faithful, and I know if they knew the truth, they would appreciate it.


((hugs))

Back at you Sandi. You are a Warrior.



M: 35, EX-W: 3, S:4
All Divorce Proceedings Complete - Oct 18
-----------------------------------------------------
2nd EX - Was Engaged - Diagnosed BPD
2 Major breakups.
2 Rebounds
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,669
O
OrangeK Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
O
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,669
Sorry Everyone. I just realized how very, very wrong I've been using the quote feature.

All of Sandi's answers from prior post are in Italics except the one beginning "{i} So, She demonizes her H......."

Its late. typos happened.


M: 35, EX-W: 3, S:4
All Divorce Proceedings Complete - Oct 18
-----------------------------------------------------
2nd EX - Was Engaged - Diagnosed BPD
2 Major breakups.
2 Rebounds
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,669
O
OrangeK Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
O
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,669
The weight is less and less everyday. GAL is a thing. for reals.


M: 35, EX-W: 3, S:4
All Divorce Proceedings Complete - Oct 18
-----------------------------------------------------
2nd EX - Was Engaged - Diagnosed BPD
2 Major breakups.
2 Rebounds
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 616
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 616
Originally Posted By: OrangeK
The weight is less and less everyday. GAL is a thing. for reals.

This is awesome, Orange. I'm happy for you. GAL is one of the things I struggle with. It's not that I don't want to, but I find it hard to find the time. Since W walked out at the beginning of the year, I've been the sole parent taking care of my kids. Every once in a while, my parents will watch them to give me a break. And I usually go out one night on the weekends after the little ones go to bed when my oldest son stays with me. But I wish I had more time to get out of the house for some me time. The times I do get out, I enjoy myself and keep myself occupied and W and this whole situation just seems to disappear for a while...


Me: 38
W:31
Kids: S16(mine from previous R), D10, S9, S4
M: 10 years
T:12 years
BD:Jan 3, 2018
W moved out: Apr 13,2018
Filed for D: Jun 2018
D final: Sep 2019

"Surrender to the Flow"...
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 339
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 339
GAL is very important, equally important is working out, walking, running. Get moving, listen to music to get yourself motivated. (no sad music)

Listen to the vets here, they know what they are talking about.


M:52 W:49
D:26 S:24 S:23 D:20
ILYBNILWY 5/28/17
Still living together
W filed 1/5/18
W moved out 8/24/18
D final 9/18/20
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,669
O
OrangeK Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
O
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,669
Same here, My W left in Oct and i have my son 4 nights a week, and other obligations most others. Free time for ME is at a premium right now.
Pick small things you can do for yourself, for me its been stuff as simple as getting back into gaming at home with friends, or picking up some new books, or hitting my roommates gym equip in the basement.
I will be learning to ride a motorcycle soon, as according to my roommate "you'll never need therapy again once you get on a bike"

riding the Kangamangus Pass on a motorcycle is my end of summer goal.


Honestly once my kid is in bed, a cup of coffee (yes i drink coffee at 11pm) a good book and some soothing music has been one of my best GAL activities.
Gives me time to relax and step out of my own head.

I still have days I miss my W TERRIBLY, and other days I get furious at her betrayals and lies, but i find more and more often, those events are less frequent and last less time each occurrence.

As much as it doesn't feel like it, i honestly think WW is suffering more than me. In different ways mind you, but THIS debacle is not what she had in mind for an end result, I can guarantee that.

I've been having good convo's with a woman i used to talk to way back in the day, and it was entirely unintentional too. Just kinda happened. Nothing I'm actively pursuing but its helped with my self esteem.


M: 35, EX-W: 3, S:4
All Divorce Proceedings Complete - Oct 18
-----------------------------------------------------
2nd EX - Was Engaged - Diagnosed BPD
2 Major breakups.
2 Rebounds
Page 9 of 11 1 2 7 8 9 10 11

Moderated by  Cadet, DnJ, job, Michele Weiner-Davis 

Link Copied to Clipboard