No affair(?), no feelings...is there hope? Part II

[44tries]

Oops, I misread your question Sandi. I thought you were asking if I had thought of any new rules. As for the ones already in place, the only one I may have broken was the fixing her food one. But instead of the passive-aggressive comments this time she basically asked if I was making food for myself, what it was, and if I could get her some too. It feels impossible to say no to that without being a jerk. What do you think? If she asks for food directly, should I say yes or tell her...get it yourself?

[sandi2]

I wrote a post long enough to break the Internet.....and wasn't watching the battery power on my IPad.....and lost the whoooooole thing. I'll have to muster up the energy to make another stab, but it will have to be tomorrow. I thought you did better, but you still feel you have to accommodate her.....and give her a precise answer when she's drilling you.

I wish you would have told her, "I think you must be confused. You are the one in the military, not me. You are not my commanding officer.....nor, my mother". Then turn and walked away from her. I could think of so many comebacks! But, I'll post tomorrow.

[44tries]

O noooo! Very sorry to hear that, Sandi.

I know what you are saying. I still have lingering fear of "rocking the boat". It feels good that she isn't pulling away and is friendly and engaged, but it makes me more scared than I should be to "push her away". Not so much that I can't follow the rules, but enough that at times I try to fight and bend them.


I have read DR a few times now, and routinely recenter by flipping through chapters 5 and 10 (the techniques including LRT and the infidelity section, aka the parts that really apply to me right now). It often seems that MWD is writing about a S that is totally withdrawn, can't stand to be in the same room, etc. A lot of the "positive signs" are things that I already see regularly. I don't know if we skipped the initial stage of total closed-ness because I immediately applied LRT and never argued or begged, or if it just somehow isn't applicable to my sitch.

Similarly, MWD talks about a "holding pattern" being okay. Once you see the positive signs and shown interest, you just try to keep it up and hope it progresses slowly but shouldn't be discouraged by stagnancy. I don't know if that is still true for me due to 1. the A and 2. the fact that my W's main problem is that she has no attraction to me. It doesn't really feel like her friendliness or even her "pursuit" (for lack of a better word) is necessarily something that is slowly moving down the right road. Rather, it feels like I am friend-zoned and on some impossible mission to make her feel as giddy and attracted to me as she was when we first met. My hope is that by employing LRT and following Sandi's advice on NGS, accommodation, and male dominance I can regain attraction while simultaneously building on the "friendship". Oh, and of course the OM spontaneously disappearing from the earth would probably help too. I just hope I'm on the right track, and neither taking positive signs for granted nor letting them get my hopes up. MWD emphasizes being clear on your goals and what to look for, and I think I need some help in that area.

I know that was all focused on the W and MR; don't be fooled, I know myself and GAL are even more important, but I feel much more clear about my direction in that area.

Looking forward to your post, Sandi. Thanks again for all the time you take writing to me.

[SteveLW]

44, I think you are looking at this with too much of a micro focus. Today. No matter where you are today, doesn't mean you will be in the same place in 6 months. A year. 2 years.

In sitch I was much in the same boat as you. Wife told me a couple of weeks in that thinking about intimacy with me was like having it with "so-and-so" where so-and-so was an unattractive guy we new peripherally. It hurt. But guess what, a few weeks later she couldn't get enough of sex with me. (Not that it directly equates with intimacy, but it was more intimate than she was willing two weeks in.)

So stop focusing on where you are at now and think about what you are doing that will pay dividends in the future. Again, if R is your goal. Again, read ItHurts thread. He and his wife were D'd and not in contact for 4 years. That isn't even the friend zone! And now she is pursuing him again. This all will happen on its own timeline, not on yours.

[sandi2]

Okay, I'm going to try this again, and maybe I'll be more watchful of my battery power.

Good job at GAL and not being home when your W got off work.

As for how my W is responding to the GAL...I'm trying not to over-analyze or really worry about it, but I'm finding it hard to stick to the rules about giving few details and basically being mysterious because my W is so nosy! Sandi, her response to coming home from work today and me not being there was exactly as you predicted. I had 3 missed calls and multiple messages on different platforms. I responded when we got a water break and just said "at workout group, ends at 8" (she asked where was I, when would I be home, etc). My whole way home she is messaging "almost here"?

You are conditioned to give her the precise answer to her questions. It will be an effort for you to be mindful about giving vague responses. She totally over killed with her constant calls. In this case, you could laugh at her. Seriously, start laughing in her face, instead of behind her back. But now listen........laughing at her and turning around and doing what she orders is not cool. Laugh at her and don't do what she is demanding.

WW: "Where are you"?
You: "Just out and about".
WW: "You weren't here when I got home, and you didn't tell me you were going out"!
You: (chuckle) "Why did we have a date"? "Besides, I figured you would need your
hour".
WW: "It's been more than an hour, and I don't have any dinner"!
You: "Oh, go ahead and fix something for yourself. Don't wait for me".
WW: "Tell me what time will you be home".
You: "Hummm........not sure".
WW: "Well I need to know! What are you doing"?
You: (chuckles and ignores her second question) "Why, do you have a surprise"?
WW: "Are you drunk"?!
You: "Not yet".
WW: "Are you with somebody"?
You: (chuckle) "Not yet".
WW: "(really getting angry). "You had better tell me what you are doing and you had
better be on your way home, if you know what's good for you mister"!
You: (laugh). "Don't wait up. I have to go now". (disconnects the call and turns off the
the phone).

I gave more last night, but I'm trying to keep this post shorter. Oh, BTW, when she says she doesn't know what she wants to eat......just reply with, "Well, if you don't know, I'm sure I don't".

Now, when I got there I almost laughed. It was like that classic movie scene where the wife is sitting in the dark and turns the light on when her H walks in. She was sitting in the dark office with her feet on the desk literally waiting for me to arrive. I acted like I thought it was weird she was waiting (didn't have to act) and she starts asking me all about what I was doing, how it was, and then goes into how she has been sitting there stewing because she can't believe I hadn't let her know my plans. Now to be clear, she wasn't mad; it was pretty lighthearted and she knew she was being ridiculous. But she was still serious. She asked me to please let her know if I am going to be gone and what days my workout groups are going to be, etc. Is this her trying to exert power or what

Don't be afraid to laugh in her face and walk away from her. When you reach the point you can laugh at her and not worry about her reaction.......you will be growing b@lls. Will she be angry? She'll probably be furious, b/c you are putting her in her place.....and she'll struggle to get power. She'll say things like, "I'm still your W and I have a right to know your plans and when you will be home". Look at her and say............"Wait, I'm a little confused here. Is this the part we act like a married couple......when you are drilling me about my personal life"? "If so, maybe you should tell me the part we act like a separated couple.....other than when it's bedtime".

She will get really angry, but that's fine. It means she is struggling to get power. If she starts demanding or ordering you, tell her, "I think you are confused. You are the one in the military, not me. You are not my commanding officer.". Then walk away. If she follows, just keep your cool, and laugh when she is rediclous. She can get glad in the same rags she got mad.

She is making up the rules to this game as she goes.......and you are going to change the entire game plan.

She asked me to please let her know if I am going to be gone and what days my workout groups are going to be, etc. Is this her trying to exert power or what? And should I agree or tell her I don't have to let her know? I am glad to see the "curiosity" and "interest" that MWD says to watch for, but it feels very...excessive.

You: (chuckle) "Hummmm.......no".
WW: "What?! You won't even have the decency to let your W know when you aren't going to be home"?
You: (laugh again). "No"!
WW: "Then I won't tell you anything about my plans"!
You: "Okey-dokey".

This entire time, you are busy doing something, getting ready for bed, fixing yourself something to eat, or whatever. You are not influenced by her anger or tears or pity party.....whatever trick she pulls out of her bag. But be prepared for something like this............

WW: (she may put on a sad face or mad face, expect either) "Well, I had been thinking we could resolve things and the reason I got upset that you weren't here is b/c I was anxious to talk to you about us sleeping together again. But now, I know you really don't love me, and will let me worry something has happened to you before you'd tell me anything.............yada, yada, yada. Now I know this M will never work, so I might as well file for a divorce. I'm not going to stay with a man who won't cooperate, is hateful and mistreats me..... and keeps secrets from his W"!

You: "If that's what you think you need to do, I won't stand in your way".

WW: "So, you want a divorce"!

You: "Oh, is this about what I want? That's rich". (chuckle)

However, you do not engage in a R talk. Tell her you aren't in the mood, or act disinterested and don't respond. Start watch TV, or go for a walk, or go to the bedroom and close the door.

After that intense ordeal, she followed me around moaning about how she was in pain and wanted to do all these chores but just couldn't, blah blah. I don't know how or why she ever got into the habit of doing that, but it is not attractive to say the least.

You know this her manipulating you to do her work, right? If gives her a sense of control and power over you. She was testing you to see if she was back at the wheel of this vehicle.

You: "I think I need to tell you something".
WW: "Okay.....what it is"?
You: "You are really unattractive when you moan & groan about how bad you feel and how you wanted to do all these chores but just couldn't". "It's actually a turn-off".

She may go off on you, or start bawling. Don't respond, juscow all away, or go into your room and close the door in her face. Don't apologize, no matter what she says or does! This is you calling her out on this type of crap. Whatever you do, don't do any of those chores! If you do, then her manipulation worked. You are going to stop being a nice-guy that she can work.

Anyway, eventually we go to our separate rooms but somehow she ends up in my room climbing into the bed next to me so we can online shop together. Then she wants to know if I'm making dinner and what I will eat. You can see where this is going...So then I'm heating up her food and she's asking to share a drink, and I'm wondering how I got sucked into the vortex again.

What a wuss! . Yeah, she works you real good. Butters you up like a turkey......,and you fall for the accommodation every time. But this is going to stop, right?

It's very hard for me to figure out where to draw the line between letting her initiate conversations and "hanging out" and me ending up doing things for her.

Laugh in her face. Say, "Oh I see how this is played". (laugh) "No, I'm not fixing you something to eat". "Put your big girl panties on and go fix yourself something to eat". (Then pop her on her butt, as if you are playing). Stick to your word, but keep it light, unless she turns really ugly.

She can initiate conversation and hang out with you........as long as she is not doing it to manipulate you into doing something for her. See, it's as if she's playing trade out. She's sort of nice for a few minutes, then asks you what you are going to eat and if you'll fix some for her. That is rotten manipulation!

Do you see how things changed when you were out? You come home and she's the one following you and initiating conversations, when it's usually the other way around. I'd say that's a good 180, right there!

Work on becoming unconditioned to giving her quick, precise answers when she is being nosy. You do not share your agenda with her........okay? When she decides to end contact with OM, and stops keeping her own secrets, and starts sleeping with you like M couples should.......in other words, starts showing you respect and admiration.......then you can begin giving more precise answers to her questions about your agenda.

I don't think you will ever be able to be as accommodating again, b/c she is a "user". She has a sense of entitlement. You have made it much, much worse by catering to her, and hanging on to every word, and by showing how hungry you are to talk. You have to break that entitlement and make sure it never returns. Otherwise, she'll never be attracted to you. I'm not saying that after reconciling you can never do a few things for her........if she returns the favors. I just think the over accommodating killed her attraction for you, and now she feels entitled and expects you to cater to her. That's not how a MR should work.

I like your additions to the "No More" rules. You are going to make big changes, and you are going to love it.

[44tries]

You are conditioned to give her the precise answer to her questions. It will be an effort for you to be mindful about giving vague responses. She totally over killed with her constant calls. In this case, you could laugh at her. Seriously, start laughing in her face, instead of behind her back. But now listen........laughing at her and turning around and doing what she orders is not cool. Laugh at her and don't do what she is demanding.

WW: "Where are you"?
You: "Just out and about".
WW: "You weren't here when I got home, and you didn't tell me you were going out"!
You: (chuckle) "Why did we have a date"? "Besides, I figured you would need your
hour".
WW: "It's been more than an hour, and I don't have any dinner"!
You: "Oh, go ahead and fix something for yourself. Don't wait for me".
WW: "Tell me what time will you be home".
You: "Hummm........not sure".
WW: "Well I need to know! What are you doing"?
You: (chuckles and ignores her second question) "Why, do you have a surprise"?
WW: "Are you drunk"?!
You: "Not yet".
WW: "Are you with somebody"?
You: (chuckle) "Not yet".
WW: "(really getting angry). "You had better tell me what you are doing and you had
better be on your way home, if you know what's good for you mister"!
You: (laugh). "Don't wait up. I have to go now". (disconnects the call and turns off the
the phone).

I gave more last night, but I'm trying to keep this post shorter. Oh, BTW, when she says she doesn't know what she wants to eat......just reply with, "Well, if you don't know, I'm sure I don't".

Oo boy, Sandi. I'm glad I'm a guy that's not afraid of a challenge. I can't even imagine having a conversation like that with my W, but I am going to try! Thank you for including such specific examples, it really helps.

Don't be afraid to laugh in her face and walk away from her. When you reach the point you can laugh at her and not worry about her reaction.......you will be growing b@lls. Will she be angry? She'll probably be furious, b/c you are putting her in her place.....and she'll struggle to get power. She'll say things like, "I'm still your W and I have a right to know your plans and when you will be home". Look at her and say............"Wait, I'm a little confused here. Is this the part we act like a married couple......when you are drilling me about my personal life"? "If so, maybe you should tell me the part we act like a separated couple.....other than when it's bedtime".

She will get really angry, but that's fine. It means she is struggling to get power. If she starts demanding or ordering you, tell her, "I think you are confused. You are the one in the military, not me. You are not my commanding officer.". Then walk away. If she follows, just keep your cool, and laugh when she is rediclous. She can get glad in the same rags she got mad.

She is making up the rules to this game as she goes.......and you are going to change the entire game plan.

Okay, I am going to trust you that her getting mad is not a bad thing. You've made it very clear here that that is what I should expect and it means I'm doing it right.

But be prepared for something like this............

WW: (she may put on a sad face or mad face, expect either) "Well, I had been thinking we could resolve things and the reason I got upset that you weren't here is b/c I was anxious to talk to you about us sleeping together again. But now, I know you really don't love me, and will let me worry something has happened to you before you'd tell me anything.............yada, yada, yada. Now I know this M will never work, so I might as well file for a divorce. I'm not going to stay with a man who won't cooperate, is hateful and mistreats me..... and keeps secrets from his W"!

You: "If that's what you think you need to do, I won't stand in your way".

WW: "So, you want a divorce"!

You: "Oh, is this about what I want? That's rich". (chuckle)

However, you do not engage in a R talk. Tell her you aren't in the mood, or act disinterested and don't respond. Start watch TV, or go for a walk, or go to the bedroom and close the door.

Wow. I will admit this is going to be really tough. It might take me a few trial runs, but I think I can get there soon. I know I can do it now that I know not to totally panic at this response.

You know this her manipulating you to do her work, right? If gives her a sense of control and power over you. She was testing you to see if she was back at the wheel of this vehicle.

This is what I figured.

You: "I think I need to tell you something".
WW: "Okay.....what it is"?
You: "You are really unattractive when you moan & groan about how bad you feel and how you wanted to do all these chores but just couldn't". "It's actually a turn-off".

She may go off on you, or start bawling. Don't respond, juscow all away, or go into your room and close the door in her face. Don't apologize, no matter what she says or does! This is you calling her out on this type of crap. Whatever you do, don't do any of those chores! If you do, then her manipulation worked. You are going to stop being a nice-guy that she can work.

I did not give in and help her with any of the chores yesterday, so I think I can do this Next time she whines I will call her out. I have already started calling her out on her passive-aggressiveness. Now she makes jokes to me about it.

What a wuss! . Yeah, she works you real good. Butters you up like a turkey......,and you fall for the accommodation every time. But this is going to stop, right?

Yes

She can initiate conversation and hang out with you........as long as she is not doing it to manipulate you into doing something for her. See, it's as if she's playing trade out. She's sort of nice for a few minutes, then asks you what you are going to eat and if you'll fix some for her. That is rotten manipulation!

Understood.

Do you see how things changed when you were out? You come home and she's the one following you and initiating conversations, when it's usually the other way around. I'd say that's a good 180, right there!

Yes! It's amazing. To be honest, I'm feeling very positive. Which is good and all, but I'm really trying to make sure I tell myself to turn that wayyyyy down and know the road is looong. It's going to sound very strange, but in some ways the A is a blessing because without that I would probably be totally blinded.

Anyway, yes, it's producing great results and that really motivates me to keep going and have the confidence that you are right and I shouldn't be afraid if I make her mad or "rock the boat" on our good terms.

Work on becoming unconditioned to giving her quick, precise answers when she is being nosy. You do not share your agenda with her........okay? When she decides to end contact with OM, and stops keeping her own secrets, and starts sleeping with you like M couples should.......in other words, starts showing you respect and admiration.......then you can begin giving more precise answers to her questions about your agenda.

This makes complete sense. What if she thinks I'm playing games? My first thought if I actually imagine becoming all intentionally vague and evasive is that she is going to think I'm doing some manipulative tactic. If that doesn't matter, then I won't worry about it.

I don't think you will ever be able to be as accommodating again, b/c she is a "user". She has a sense of entitlement. You have made it much, much worse by catering to her, and hanging on to every word, and by showing how hungry you are to talk. You have to break that entitlement and make sure it never returns. Otherwise, she'll never be attracted to you. I'm not saying that after reconciling you can never do a few things for her........if she returns the favors. I just think the over accommodating killed her attraction for you, and now she feels entitled and expects you to cater to her. That's not how a MR should work.

I like your additions to the "No More" rules. You are going to make big changes, and you are going to love it.

I couldn't agree more. I am so relieved to finally understand the problem and I know I will never be able to go back. Even with the limited progress I have made, I feel more empowered and in control than I ever have before. Again, I don't want to get too excited, but I am allowing myself to be as excited as I want about the fact that I am learning and growing so much. Can't wait to keep going.


Today was a pretty good day and I didn't have too much trouble sticking to the rules. I did hang out with W at work for a bit (per her request) because I was already on base for an event. It was a great time; she was very playful and she didn't want me to leave. Her work is a good setting because the dynamic of her asking me for things isn't there. Her texting with OM has also noticeably decreased in the past few days, but I certainly have not forgotten about him and know he will probably flare up at any moment. Overall, I'm enjoying the positive day and viewing it as a nice "up" on the never ending rollercoaster.

One question--what do I do if W starts trying to join my GAL? She made a comment today that implied she might try to join my workout group, which I ignored, but also kind of freaked me out. And she thought I was suffocating...

[sandi2]

Oo boy, Sandi. I'm glad I'm a guy that's not afraid of a challenge. I can't even imagine having a conversation like that with my W, but I am going to try! Thank you for including such specific examples, it really helps.

The fact that you can't imagine having a conversation like that with your cheating W, is b/c you have lived in fear of displeasing her. When a man tries too hard to appease his W, there is no male dominance in the relationship.........and she sees him as being less of man. Women are naturally attracted to a man's masculinity and his male confidence. That is the sexiest trait he can have. Part of those traits is him always being the one who leads the MR.. In other words, he is the one in charge, and she knows she had better not play him for a fool......or be she can be prepared to kiss him goodbye. He doesn't mess around with those type of women......especially one that is married to him! He commands respect wherever he goes and interacts with others. He expects respect from his W, and if she gets a potty mouth toward him or tries to act horsey or b'tchy with him.........he knows how to deal with her RIGHT THEN And THERE! He doesn't tolerate her passive-agressiveness. And let me make a point in telling you that he doesn't tell himself he'll take the high road, or he will be the better person. No! This is what a weak, conditioned, hen-pecked H tells himself. He makes up excuses in order to live with his wayward W. It just kills me to read threads where nice-guys let their WW roughshod over them, and then say they decided to be the bigger person! Really? By not standing up for yourself, or letting her manipulate you like a puppet? I think in many cases, it's when she acts like a b'tch and he just lets it go. Bad mistake.

In today's society, the modern career woman is encouraged to be aggressive and be proud of her b'tchiness.. It's one thing to have that persona at work, but when it's carried home and used with her H.........it's inappropriate and unacceptable. I don't mean she shouldn't stand up for herself. I'm not suggesting she cows down to an over-bearing man. Stay balanced with what I'm trying to say. When a woman runs roughshod over her H, it robs her of femininity. If the H hunkers down to this type of treatment, and he starts doing whatever he thinks will put her in a softer mood where he can bear to live with her..........he has just created his own hell. They will have a M where she demeans him, and he is a "yes, dear" type of H........which is so unattractive.

You may be asking what a man has to do when his WW is acting like a bratt (or much worse). Call her out about it, right then & there. But now listen carefully b/c you are a talker. Being a fellow talker myself, I know how easy it is too say too many words. I tend to be a lecturer. It doesn't work well with spouses or kids! Call her hand on it as soon as she starts that old cr@p, and don't let it go for a few days and then sit her down for one of your long talks. It will be powerless. Instead, call her hand on her behavior when it starts, keep it short & simple, and use as few words as possible. If you say less, she'll hear more.

Anyway, in your particular sitch, I think you can overcome your fear of making your W angry, or worrying about what she'll think about your actions, by starting out as I suggested in my previous post. Your W is trying to turn you into a handmaiden, and you are succumbing to it. I think there is time for you to turn things around and out this relationship on the right track. Being afraid and doing it anyway.......is bravery. I think you have the "right stuff". You just need a little help in getting started. Not that I am some kind of authority, but I am a former WW married to a man who had NGS (he has changed a lot), and I have a strong sense of the mindset of your WW. Once she sees she can not order you around, play her manipulative tricks, etc., she is going to start seeing you with new eyes. I think she'll fall in love with the man you are going to become.

One question--what do I do if W starts trying to join my GAL? She made a comment today that implied she might try to join my workout group, which I ignored, but also kind of freaked me out. And she thought I was suffocating

You; "Humm, no, I don't think so".
WW: "Why not"?
You: "I need my hour". "I'm sure you understand". (and then wink at her, as you walk away).
WW: "Oh, I understand plenty"! "You are punishing me for wanting a few minutes to relax when I first come home".
You: "Look, no offense, but I just need to get out and do a few things on my on".
WW: (angry and sulking). "Fine! I certainly don't want to tag along when I'm not wanted". "I would think you would want your W to join you! "Yada, yada, yada"
You: "Okey-dokey, then". (No more conversing about it after this point. Start doing something else, while you are whistling. That may help to shut her up. Remember, you don't worry about her response or what she thinks. In fact, just assume she will react badly. She'll get over it).

Learn a few key phrases, like......

"Is this the part where we act like a M couple"?
"Is this the part where we act like a separated couple"?
"You are very unattractive when you (fill in the blank)".
"No".
"Cut the passive-aggressive cr@p". "It is unattractive".
"You can stop the manipulation any time now, b/c it's not going to work".
"You can stop trying to play me".
"Put your big girl panties on". "I'm not going to do your chores".
"If you don't know what you want to eat, how do expect anyone else to know"?
"If you want something to eat, you can watch to see how I fix my plate, then follow suite".
"You are not at your day job now, so you can stop playing drill Sargent".

A few of the above can be said as if you are amused, but very wise to her actions.....and you have no intentions of tolerating it. It depends on the situation. Don't repeat the same things too many times. This is just to give you a snap shot of how to get started in standing up to her bad behavior and how she tries to control you.

I don't know if you like to whistle a tune, or hum a song.......but I suggest you start doing this when you come in from in from GAL. You can also do it when you feel some tension in the atmosphere. You know, like when she is sulking, moaning and groaning about not able to do chores, etc. Just start whistling. You'd be surprised how that works in shutting down some of that yada-yada cr@p.

Good job of not giving in and doing her chores for her.
That's a great 180!

[44tries]

The fact that you can't imagine having a conversation like that with your cheating W, is b/c you have lived in fear of displeasing her. When a man tries too hard to appease his W, there is no male dominance in the relationship.........and she sees him as being less of man. Women are naturally attracted to a man's masculinity and his male confidence. That is the sexiest trait he can have. Part of those traits is him always being the one who leads the MR.. In other words, he is the one in charge, and she knows she had better not play him for a fool......or be she can be prepared to kiss him goodbye. He doesn't mess around with those type of women......especially one that is married to him! He commands respect wherever he goes and interacts with others. He expects respect from his W, and if she gets a potty mouth toward him or tries to act horsey or b'tchy with him.........he knows how to deal with her RIGHT THEN And THERE! He doesn't tolerate her passive-agressiveness. And let me make a point in telling you that he doesn't tell himself he'll take the high road, or he will be the better person. No! This is what a weak, conditioned, hen-pecked H tells himself. He makes up excuses in order to live with his wayward W. It just kills me to read threads where nice-guys let their WW roughshod over them, and then say they decided to be the bigger person! Really? By not standing up for yourself, or letting her manipulate you like a puppet? I think in many cases, it's when she acts like a b'tch and he just lets it go. Bad mistake.

Wow, I am so glad you are willing to take the time to explain all of this to me; you completely nailed that my first instinct is to probably think of taking the high road. The whole thing about turn the other cheek, have a heart of forgiveness...I think they are important things, but it clearly takes some skill to properly wield them and isn't always appropriate. Things like the lighthouse story really resonate with me because I think my self-image is built a lot on being emotionally steady and fulfilling that idealistic fantasy that girls will be crazy and all over the place, but if you are standing there waiting when they calm down they will love you or something. I have gone far down the wrong tunnel; thank goodness I am learning this now while I'm still young I guess. I am really starting to see the line between lighthouse and doormat.

You may be asking what a man has to do when his WW is acting like a bratt (or much worse). Call her out about it, right then & there. But now listen carefully b/c you are a talker. Being a fellow talker myself, I know how easy it is too say too many words. I tend to be a lecturer. It doesn't work well with spouses or kids! Call her hand on it as soon as she starts that old cr@p, and don't let it go for a few days and then sit her down for one of your long talks. It will be powerless. Instead, call her hand on her behavior when it starts, keep it short & simple, and use as few words as possible. If you say less, she'll hear more.

Again, you are a mind-reader, I was asking just that. Short and simple, but firm. Got it. If I start calling it out every time and make it clear I won't tolerate it, will she stop? Or will I have to keep doing it forever?

Anyway, in your particular sitch, I think you can overcome your fear of making your W angry, or worrying about what she'll think about your actions, by starting out as I suggested in my previous post. Your W is trying to turn you into a handmaiden, and you are succumbing to it. I think there is time for you to turn things around and out this relationship on the right track. Being afraid and doing it anyway.......is bravery. I think you have the "right stuff". You just need a little help in getting started. Not that I am some kind of authority, but I am a former WW married to a man who had NGS (he has changed a lot), and I have a strong sense of the mindset of your WW. Once she sees she can not order you around, play her manipulative tricks, etc., she is going to start seeing you with new eyes. I think she'll fall in love with the man you are going to become.

Don't get me too excited I am very flattered you think I have what it takes to pull this off. I think so too. In fact, I know that I can overcome my fear and change the way I handle my W. But her actions and feelings are out of my control, so I hope you're right that her attraction will come back. Your insight is more helpful than you can know. You're right I just need help getting started. I'm very smart and did well in school, but this was not one of the subjects they taught!

You; "Humm, no, I don't think so".
WW: "Why not"?
You: "I need my hour". "I'm sure you understand". (and then wink at her, as you walk away).
WW: "Oh, I understand plenty"! "You are punishing me for wanting a few minutes to relax when I first come home".
You: "Look, no offense, but I just need to get out and do a few things on my on".
WW: (angry and sulking). "Fine! I certainly don't want to tag along when I'm not wanted". "I would think you would want your W to join you! "Yada, yada, yada"
You: "Okey-dokey, then". (No more conversing about it after this point. Start doing something else, while you are whistling. That may help to shut her up. Remember, you don't worry about her response or what she thinks. In fact, just assume she will react badly. She'll get over it).

These dialogues are so helpful. Totally will be a 180 for me, but I'm hoping it will become more natural pretty quickly.

Learn a few key phrases, like......

"Is this the part where we act like a M couple"?
"Is this the part where we act like a separated couple"?
"You are very unattractive when you (fill in the blank)".
"No".
"Cut the passive-aggressive cr@p". "It is unattractive".
"You can stop the manipulation any time now, b/c it's not going to work".
"You can stop trying to play me".
"Put your big girl panties on". "I'm not going to do your chores".
"If you don't know what you want to eat, how do expect anyone else to know"?
"If you want something to eat, you can watch to see how I fix my plate, then follow suite".
"You are not at your day job now, so you can stop playing drill Sargent".

I need to print these on an index card.

I don't know if you like to whistle a tune, or hum a song.......but I suggest you start doing this when you come in from in from GAL. You can also do it when you feel some tension in the atmosphere. You know, like when she is sulking, moaning and groaning about not able to do chores, etc. Just start whistling. You'd be surprised how that works in shutting down some of that yada-yada cr@p.

Interesting idea! I am admittedly awful at keeping a tune, but I'll come up with something comparable.

Good job of not giving in and doing her chores for her.
That's a great 180!

As always, thank you!! If my MR somehow gets out of this ditch, you will seriously personally be a huge reason why. Along with all the others here that have been so kind to give me advice.

Now, here's my chance to take one step down this road to the new me and not look back...W just messaged me that she wants to go out with her coworkers tonight, "but doesn't have a ride home..." The passive-aggression won't die! This time the conversation ends at "Taxi?"

[sandi2]

Wow, I am so glad you are willing to take the time to explain all of this to me; you completely nailed that my first instinct is to probably think of taking the high road. The whole thing about turn the other cheek, have a heart of forgiveness...I think they are important things, but it clearly takes some skill to properly wield them and isn't always appropriate.

I understand, really. I grew up in a little traditional church. My parents were very strict and religious. I come from a line of strong women, and my mother was quite spunky, but always....always a lady. My father was a WW2 vet and there was no doubt who was the head/leader in our home. He was exactly what my mother needed. If my mother had M a soft man who had NGS, she would have filed for D on the grounds of disgust. You see, men with NGS make lovely boyfriends, but not so much H's. Of course every man with NGS has different degrees of it.......just like every WW will differ a bit.

Anyway, back to turning the other cheek, this does not mean you become a door mat.
Men who are already nice-guys, plus live by the principles you've mentioned.........can have trouble finding the middle road, so to speak. To them, these "Golden Rule" standards almost feeds his nice-guy syndrome........and, IMHO, I often wonder if it becomes a subconcious excuse for them not taking a more assertive approach in their relationships. Learning how to rightly divide the scripture.......or as I say, knowing how to stay balanced in your thinking and actions......is the key that will open doors for you. I think when I first start talking about applying a tougher love in the MR, the H mentally pictures a mean, over-bearing type of man. He jumps from one end of the spectrum to the opposite end. See what I am saying?

Things like the lighthouse story really resonate with me because I think my self-image is built a lot on being emotionally steady and fulfilling that idealistic fantasy that girls will be crazy and all over the place, but if you are standing there waiting when they calm down they will love you or something. I have gone far down the wrong tunnel; thank goodness I am learning this now while I'm still young I guess. I am really starting to see the line between lighthouse and doormat.

That's wonderful, 44. Remember, the lighthouse does not go out into the waters to rescue the sailor in the storm. It does not bend or move from its position. It stands tall and solid, giving out that beam of light. If the sailor will follow that light, s/he can make it to shore. It is the lighthouse's job to give a beam of light. It's the sailor's decision to follow the beam to shore, or choose her own path and risk destruction.

If I start calling it out every time and make it clear I won't tolerate it, will she stop? Or will I have to keep doing it forever?

Yes, I think if you are consistent......she will start backing off. I don't think it will be overnight, or stop all at once. It is a pattern of behavior she uses with you, so you have to train her that she can't act that way with you. She'll slack off, but this will be her brand of testing you to see if you are staying strong enough to tell her, "Don't even go there with me".

Once you've establishedtrust boundary and you call her out whenever she starts displaying this behavior, you won't have to say much in order for her to know she can't play that game with you. Learning short phrases like I just gave, will be useful, and shouldn't be difficult.

"Don't even try to start that old stuff, b/c it won't work".
"Back off"!
"Don't start, b/c I'm not going to join your game".
"Try another approach, b/c this one is not going to fly".
"You need to back up and try again, b/c this doesn't work for me".
"Don't start".

Eventually, you should be able to just give her "the look" that tells her you won't tolerate it. That is how parents do with their kids. They have to train them how to behave properly, especially at certain times & places. If they have done a decent job of training, and one of the kids forget (or test) the parent b/c they are at the grocery store or at someone's house........all mom has to do is snap her fingers and point at the kid, and he knows he'd better straighten up right that minute! I had a hyper kid, and as they say, he was all boy. However, by the time he was in school, all I had to do was give him "the look", and he immediately knew what to do. WW's can act like undisciplined children. So in the beginning of training her what is not acceptable and what you won't tolerate, you may wonder if she'll ever stop testing you. Not letting her get by a few times before calling her out is key. I can't stress that enough. Short, simple, firm, and consistency is the formula.

I need to print these on an index card.

.

If my MR somehow gets out of this ditch, you will seriously personally be a huge reason why

Well, I take it seriously. I like to kid around, and at times, I can have a sarcastic sense of humor when I'm posting.......that may not be received in the way I intended, IDK. However, the advice is a serious sense of responsibility. Thanks for your encouragement. I appreciate it.

[44tries]

I understand, really. I grew up in a little traditional church. My parents were very strict and religious. I come from a line of strong women, and my mother was quite spunky, but always....always a lady. My father was a WW2 vet and there was no doubt who was the head/leader in our home. He was exactly what my mother needed. If my mother had M a soft man who had NGS, she would have filed for D on the grounds of disgust. You see, men with NGS make lovely boyfriends, but not so much H's. Of course every man with NGS has different degrees of it.......just like every WW will differ a bit.

I was also raised in a very religious home. Christian school my whole life. This definitely contributes to some of my confusion and helped shape me to develop NGS. But, like I said, it's all starting to become clear .

Anyway, back to turning the other cheek, this does not mean you become a door mat.
Men who are already nice-guys, plus live by the principles you've mentioned.........can have trouble finding the middle road, so to speak. To them, these "Golden Rule" standards almost feeds his nice-guy syndrome........and, IMHO, I often wonder if it becomes a subconcious excuse for them not taking a more assertive approach in their relationships. Learning how to rightly divide the scripture.......or as I say, knowing how to stay balanced in your thinking and actions......is the key that will open doors for you. I think when I first start talking about applying a tougher love in the MR, the H mentally pictures a mean, over-bearing type of man. He jumps from one end of the spectrum to the opposite end. See what I am saying?

I think you are totally right about it becoming a subconscious excuse for not being assertive. I have never been what you would call an assertive person, but as I grew up and became an adult, I became much more assertive socially and in the workplace etc. But for some reason I'm still the scared little boy version of myself when it comes to relationships. Yes, the balance is the key. I don't think I'm in any danger of becoming mean or domineering. I just need to get comfortable standing up to my W and communicating assertively, as opposed to passive-aggressively or submissively etc.

That's wonderful, 44. Remember, the lighthouse does not go out into the waters to rescue the sailor in the storm. It does not bend or move from its position. It stands tall and solid, giving out that beam of light. If the sailor will follow that light, s/he can make it to shore. It is the lighthouse's job to give a beam of light. It's the sailor's decision to follow the beam to shore, or choose her own path and risk destruction.

So, so important and true. This is what I strive to be and in the past I definitely would have gone swimming, thinking I was playing the hero. Now I understand that I cannot rescue someone, especially if they don't want to be rescued. They will not view me as a hero, they will resent me. They need to come back to shore on their own in their own time, if ever.

Yes, I think if you are consistent......she will start backing off. I don't think it will be overnight, or stop all at once. It is a pattern of behavior she uses with you, so you have to train her that she can't act that way with you. She'll slack off, but this will be her brand of testing you to see if you are staying strong enough to tell her, "Don't even go there with me".

This makes sense. Consistency is key.

Once you've establishedtrust boundary and you call her out whenever she starts displaying this behavior, you won't have to say much in order for her to know she can't play that game with you. Learning short phrases like I just gave, will be useful, and shouldn't be difficult.

"Don't even try to start that old stuff, b/c it won't work".
"Back off"!
"Don't start, b/c I'm not going to join your game".
"Try another approach, b/c this one is not going to fly".
"You need to back up and try again, b/c this doesn't work for me".
"Don't start".

Another index card

Eventually, you should be able to just give her "the look" that tells her you won't tolerate it. That is how parents do with their kids. They have to train them how to behave properly, especially at certain times & places. If they have done a decent job of training, and one of the kids forget (or test) the parent b/c they are at the grocery store or at someone's house........all mom has to do is snap her fingers and point at the kid, and he knows he'd better straighten up right that minute! I had a hyper kid, and as they say, he was all boy. However, by the time he was in school, all I had to do was give him "the look", and he immediately knew what to do. WW's can act like undisciplined children. So in the beginning of training her what is not acceptable and what you won't tolerate, you may wonder if she'll ever stop testing you. Not letting her get by a few times before calling her out is key. I can't stress that enough. Short, simple, firm, and consistency is the formula.

Got it. Everything would be so different if I had the kind of power that came with that look. I don't have kids, but it reminds me of training dogs as well. They might obey in a quiet setting at home, but at the park, next to a bike, etc is a whole different ball game. Good training means that snap of the fingers works, no matter the setting. And like you said, the only way your dog will ever become that reliably trained is if he knows you will never give him an inch. Not that I'm trying to compare my W to a dog


Today was a day of mixed feelings for me. Emotionally, I struggled. I could tell she was texting OM most of the day. I would say the most accurate description is to say I felt discouraged. I was missing my W. Tomorrow will be exactly 4 weeks since BD. On one hand, I can't believe it's already been a month. On the other, reality hit as to just how long the road is. Sooo much patience, no guarantees.

But, on the bright side, I am making so much progress with my own growth. I picked up another book today to add to my arsenal. It is about why relationships become unbalanced. Wow, it's like the textbook I never thought existed on this topic. So much great information. Of course, it's agonizing to have all the thoughts like "why didn't I find this sooner?", "if only my W could read this!" And so on. But I am learning so much about myself as I read and now know why I have always felt like the powerless one in my relationships. Really completes the picture along with NGS, male dominance etc.

Sandi, you'll be happy to hear that I recorded a few successes today. First, it was my turn to make dinner and I assertively asked my W if she could please help by cutting the chicken. Something that has always frustrated me is that when it's my turn to cook, she sits on her @ss watching TV while I prepare the whole meal. But when it's her turn, she drags me into it with her and I help do half of it. Well, she b'tched and moaned as expected, but best believe she was in that kitchen doing what I asked. I only needed one thing and I thanked her and told her she was free to go when she finished. Later, she came back for a snack and asked me to go pause her show while she fixed it. I'm in the middle of cooking dinner! I flat out told her no. One word. Later, she said she needed a water...I said well then go get one. I'm not your errand boy. She pushed back though. Keeps asking why I have an attitude. At one point, she said something like don't be surprised if I ask you to take me to the airport one day so I can go be on my own.

I won't lie, it makes me question what I'm doing. But then she always come back and her mood doesn't last. I was trying to write this post earlier and she came into my room asking what I was doing and actually tried to manhandle my iPad out of my hands! She also asked if I was talking to a girl when I was on the phone with my dad. I think she is feeling the loss of control. She was drinking a bit tonight and needed to go to her work office suddenly (long story) so I had to drive her. She made some comments about being lonely, only having the dogs to talk to, feeling mentally unstable. It made me really sad. At the end of the day, sometimes it's really hard for me to understand why she is so miserable and why my love wasn't enough. Not trying to get all sappy, but it's a very helpless, dejected feeling.