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Seems like text is disappearing again, testing with small messages

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My question was have you seen a L to understand your custody rights since BD? How involved has she been with the kids, has it reduced since the BD
Good you are GAL, does it make her angrier when you seem to be happy without her ? Or does it make her feel guilt free for putting you through this?

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I have not seen a lawyer. We've discussed mediation, and that's the path we plan to take if it comes to it. Finances have not been split, we still pay bills and everything exactly the same as before. W has been doing more around the house and with the kids since BD, but still not as much as me. I'm just home with the kids more right now. When stressful times hit she has always focused on work and used that as her escape, and this is no different.

We've discussed joint custody and some of the logistics. With my job the exact days and times we would split would change every 4-5 months. She'll also have random evenings to work, so we both will need a lot of cooperation from the other and I don't think it will be a problem.

I'm seeing W as feeling less guilty when I'm happy without her, definitely not angry. She encourages me to go out and have a good time, and I do the same with her. This all seems the opposite of the typical story around here though. I've read many sitches and most seem to have a WAS or WS that does less with the kids, goes out a lot, blames the LBS, and either has no external reaction to GAL or gets upset about it. I'm not sure what to think about that.


Married: 9, Together: 16
Me:33, W:34, D:6, S:3
BD: 1/1/18
EA confirmed: 2/7/18
I moved out 6/1/18
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MRay, I've read through your story and see a lot of similarities to mine. Sometimes I had to double check and make sure I wasn't reading my own posts!

I wanted to say that I experience the same thing you do with my W where it seems my GAL is assuaging her guilt. She is totally curious and temp checks me about everything I do, but at the end of the day she is always telling me she is happy for me or 'good for you', etc. It's hard not to let this make me feel like this means she truly wants me to move on and have a life without her, with no conflicting feelings. Of course, she could just be putting on a show.

I often wonder how to feel about her feelings of guilt. I don't want her to come back to me because she feels guilty. But it seems MWD says any and all emotions that make her question her decision at this time are a good thing. So, I feel you about getting discouraged by GALing and her feeling less guilty. Keep it up, though, it sounds like you're doing great!


M: 26 W: 26
M: 1.5 T: 3
No kids
BD: 31 March 2018

W's affair began: 23 March 2018
Affair confirmed: 18 April 2018
Confrontation/claims she ended A: 14 May 2018
Ended in-house separation: July 2018
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It's like she enjoyed emasculating OM at the time, and she would laugh about it at home. And now she's attracted to him? Just weird. I'm really not sure what to make of all that, but I do find it an interesting dynamic.


It's a little difficult to explain, and I don't know if this is the case in every WW affair. For me, it was more about how the OM made me feel. Maybe you've heard the old saying of being in love with love? It's the whole fantasy gig. In the majority of stories, the OM is a step down from the H. I've also found that the OM is frequently opposite from the H. It fits, simply b/c of the craziness of the wayward mindset.

Quote:
Looking back I know that it's part of her personality. She's a strong woman that has tried similar things with me, but I would respond by challenging her and showing her strength. Nothing close to violence or abuse, just playful stuff. This always attracted her in our good days and we would laugh, and good times would ensue. OM goes along with it and lets her dominate him and that's now attractive? Was she wanting to see me as a dominant male again? Or is she tired of having a dominant male challenge her authority and she wants a pushover to dominate? Who really knows? The best part of this analysis is I'm not really having an emotional response. I'm just curious.


In a man-woman relationship, the woman wants a man who is stronger than she is. Maybe it goes back to the beginning of time when she needed a strong man to take care of her and her offsprings. She will challenge him, test him, and give him a devil of a time...........to see if he is tougher than she is. Not only tougher, but to see how he will deal with her. I don't think she is always aware she's testing him at the time, but it's in her nature and she is going to do it! I don't envy men today.

Yes, in a male-female relationship, she wants to see male dominance in her H. That is sexually attractive to a woman. A woman doesn't grow "tired" of male dominance in the guy she loves. She craves it. This is a part of masculinity that turns her on. It's such a crying shame that so many men today think they are suppose to act like these idiot TV sitcom H's. That's the role model a lot of boys grew up watching, and it's so far from what women really want.

Women want to be respected and treated like she's his equal. They don't want to be bullied or treated badly in any form. A man can show his natural male dominance without treating her as if she doesn't have a brain, or using some form of abuse to "keep her line". I would encourage all the H's on the board to read about how to show male dominance in marriage. It may open some eyes, especially when it comes to the bedroom.

I have seen a few men who think they are acting like some cave man by pushing his weight around........but he's just being an overbearing a$$. He's not showing any type of natural male dominance. And I can promise you, it won't sexually attract a woman, unless she doesn't have the sense to determine a fake from the genuine. So men should not confuse the definition of male dominance.

In regard to male dominance, an in-house separation puts the H at a terrible
disadvantage, IMHO. frown

Quote:
Thinking back I'm pretty sure she was temp-checking me last weekend, and I failed. She hasn't done any temp-checking throughout this sitch, so I was unprepared. We used to enjoy watching tv shows, reading books, etc. together and discussing what happened and trying to figure out what's going to happen next. All of this has stopped except for one show, but we hadn't watched in a few weeks. When the kids go take their naps or go to bed she immediately goes to her room. She never watches tv in the living room, but this time she put the next episode on in the living room while I was working out. She knew full well that I would come in from the garage and see her watching without me. She knew this would bother me as it's the last thing that we did together that doesn't involve our children. She looked at me when I came in, and immediately asked if I would like her to stop watching. I told her that I really would have liked to watch together so I don't fall behind, but if she wanted to watch she should go right ahead. I went back to my workout, and she decided to go back to her room and watch the show there. I should have left it at that. Feeling like I was losing the one thing we had left,


It didn't really look like a temp check, to me. Now, she may have been doing it to needle you......but I don't think it was to gauge where you are emotionally in the relationship. As an outsider, it did kind of look as if you were the one who couldn't make up your mind what you wanted to do. Plus, you were giving her a lot of credit for knowing exactly what you would feel & think about watching that episode together. Waywards are so self absorbed that she may never even given you a thought when she started watching it. But at any rate, yeah......you didn't come out looking so cool on that one..

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In the future I'll be more prepared for this kind of thing. I've read a lot about temp-checking
,

In some of that reading, there's a possibility you read some poster's incorrect definition for temp checking. Just in case, it is when the WW wants reassurance that the H is still emotionally attached to her. So, she'll set him up in some way to gauge his response. Maybe you related this to your situation b/c of your emotions over that episode being the last thing you had done together, IDK. If she had been temp checking, then she would have been pleased that you changed your mind and wanted to watch the episode with her.

Good job in actually seeing your body making a positive transformation. smile


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Perhaps you are correct about my misunderstanding the definition of a temp-check. At the very least she was needling me. She knew what she was doing. My W is highly intelligent, calculating, and far better than I am at playing games like this. My MIL taught her well in this regard. My family has always been very straight forward. I've been very good at detaching lately, and I think she was testing me in some way. I know I failed this one, but I'll be better. Everything is a learning experience.

Thanks for your thoughts on the relationship dynamics. I do think a big problem is when we had our oldest I really stepped up around the house because I knew it had to be done. It was a pretty good 50/50 split before kids, and I never slowed down and talked with her about equally sharing the load again after she was done breast feeding. I just kept right on doing everything, like a doormat. Then that led to some resent on my part that led to NGS expecting something in return. I'm ashamed of that. Then when I quit my job and went back to school, I felt guilty. I wasn't providing for the family, she was. This already made me look weak, even though we discussed this and agreed it was best for the family in the long run. I went out of my way to be the best dad possible and took on all responsibilities for the kids and the house. I was essentially a stay at home dad while going to school, so I felt I should do most of it. This led to doormat tendencies, making me look even weaker. By the time I got my job, she had been getting to know OM for a couple months and were soon best friends. This was when she probably saw me at my weakest: no job, just finished school, doormat at home, NGS, etc. I think she had developed a view of me as very weak due to both my actions at home and our decision for me to go back to school. I thought me taking action to better our future, following through, and succeeding would be enough to keep me viewed as strong. It doesn't really matter now. All I can do is move forward and show my strength and success to the world. She'll take notice eventually, as will others (some already have, though I will not allow myself to go there until my M is over and done).

Quote:
In regard to male dominance, an in-house separation puts the H at a terrible disadvantage, IMHO.

I agree 100%. All advice I have seen says do not leave the home. She will not willingly leave the home either, so I'm not sure what to do about it. I actually think I would like a real separation. I'd miss the kids, but she can learn to deal with them all on her own and see how she likes it.

Oh, and I have finally experienced how a WS's emotions are all over the place day to day. Before she would have big swings, but they would last weeks at a time. Usually from her having a big enlightenment in wanting to leave me, and then me responding and putting her back into a bad mood in some way. Now that I've successfully(for the most part anyways) been detaching, she has done a big up and down this weekend. As I said previously she was on a big high Friday, and yesterday she went to work all day. She has been wearing her wedding ring out of the house, but taking it off when she gets home. Yesterday she left it at home. It's the first time she didn't wear it when leaving the house since we were married. I thinks she expected a big reaction, and I gave her none. I didn't reach out to her, I didn't initiate any type of conversation, etc., and now today she is looking very depressed again. She had plans to leave the house and take the kids to her parents (this would mean I wouldn't see her all weekend, so I should be upset right?), but I just smiled and said go right ahead and have fun. Now she's been sad all day, napping in the rocking chair when the kids were playing in the living room, going back and sulking in her room when I took the kids outside to play, and looking for me to come begging to interact with her in some way. She won't initiate anything herself, but she is definitely trying to get me to initiate something, or make it seem like I am initiating some contact between us. It's quite fascinating.


Married: 9, Together: 16
Me:33, W:34, D:6, S:3
BD: 1/1/18
EA confirmed: 2/7/18
I moved out 6/1/18
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W initiated R talk tonight. She called an attorney today to set up mediation for us. She says it's just not fair to either of us to remain in limbo. She can't find herself and move on while in this state, and she doesn't want to end up depressed like her dad. I knew this was coming, and I'll be okay, but for right now I'm devastated. I just wanted my kids to grow up in a loving house with two loving parents. I want to be with my kids every day. I will do my best for them, but it just won't be the same and it feels wrong. I'm just not sure what else to say or do. I just feel...wrong.


Married: 9, Together: 16
Me:33, W:34, D:6, S:3
BD: 1/1/18
EA confirmed: 2/7/18
I moved out 6/1/18
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Originally Posted By: MRay
I just wanted my kids to grow up in a loving house with two loving parents. I want to be with my kids every day. I will do my best for them, but it just won't be the same and it feels wrong.


I fully understand what you are saying. It is heart breaking to even bear the thought that these kids have to grow with mom and dad and not parents, in fact part time parents. It is so unjust to even see how the lives of us LBS and the precious children are left incomplete because of the WAS's selfishness. Every time my D says mommy and daddy as a single word a part of me dies. We grew up with parents in a happy home and are unable to give our children that basic building block of life. But I think we should take courage in the fact that we tried our best to make it work and are able to tell our children that we gave it our all but it wasn't our decision to make.

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Journaling (it's gonna be a long one): So it's been a couple days and I'm feeling more stable. W and I have talked the last two nights, and we've been very honest with each other. We have both grown so much over the past few months. Her through IC and really working on herself. Me through GAL and finding the old, confident me.

Her self esteem is higher than I've seen it since she dropped out of grad school. She said she has never felt good enough for me. It was nothing that I did to make her feel this way. It was her own insecurities. She has started working out and taking much better care of herself. I am very proud of her for this, and have told her so. I have always encouraged her and tried to lift her up, but she has always had a negative view of herself. I know now that this has nothing to do with me, and it's from issues that were there before we started dating. I see her self image changing for the better slowly each day. She's become a better mom to our kids as well, and she has stepped up around the house. We've talked about our past, and are both saddened by what has happened. We both brought up "what ifs" that we think could have saved us, but agreed that didn't matter and we shouldn't dwell on the past. We love each other deeply, she just doesn't love me like a wife should love her husband. She loves me like a brother, and she says that's what she needs right now. I listened and validated as much as I could.

I don't think her feelings for me have a chance to change if we stay together. She puts a lot of internal pressure on herself, and she will feel pursuit from me no matter what I do. So I've decided to go ahead with the divorce. We will do everything we can to give our kids what they need, and I think we will both find ourselves again. We are going to go through the mediation process, and hope to split everything amicably. The only thing I can see causing any animosity is the house. We can both afford it, and we both want it.

I found myself laughing about this yesterday, and I realized I'm going to be okay. I was looking at our calendar, and saw we have our mediation appointment next Friday at 2, and then she has IC a few hours later. I was laughing because the two offices are very close to each other, and close to one of our favorite places we used to eat together when we actually went on dates. I was thinking about asking her to get an early dinner between the appointments and how it would be so ridiculous, but something we would totally do. I told her about this last night, and she started laughing, got teary eyed and said something about that being something we would do. She brought it up again later and said that's something she would really like to do. I told her we'd see how we feel after mediation, and she agreed that was a good idea.

I am slowly feeling better about letting my wife go. I went out last night with some friends and met some new people. My cousin was there with her fiance and two of the women that will be in the wedding. A good portion of the evening was spent talking about the wedding, and I felt no pain or sadness. I had a great time, and didn't think about my W once. I was asked to join a golf tournament as part of my work's team. They know I've never golfed before, but I agreed to do it. I'm going to practice this weekend, so we'll see just how bad I am! I never would have done these things 6 months ago. I was too focused on my family to give myself the chance to live. I'm living my life for myself again, and I haven't done that since I was 16. I want to make it the best journey that I can.

Last night, W said she was very surprised by my reaction to all of this. She expected alternating bouts of rage and begging/pleading. I told her that shows just how far her perception of me is (and has been) from reality. I told her I was ashamed of my reaction to BD and my uncovering her EA. That if there was one thing I would change over the last 4 months I would have kicked her out of the house after finding out about OM. I told her that I would never beg anybody for anything ever again (the tone of my voice and look in my eyes were very convincing). I have also not shown her any rage. She knows I have a temper. I have since childhood. Being raised by an angry alcoholic father will do that to you. I control it very, very well, but she expected this to bring it out. If anything would break my control, this should be it, but I've become a very strong person and she commented on that. I think she's starting to see past the image of me she had built in her head. Probably from IC, the release of pursuit, and my own personal growth. I don't think this will change her feelings for me at the moment, but it's nice to break some of the negative images she has of me.

All that said, I just have a gut feeling that my W and I aren't done with each other. We really do match up damn well. We are both convinced that circumstances and long buried issues from before our marriage caused it to fail. It may be that we file for D and stop it at the last minute. It may be 5 or 10 years from now. It may be that we both find other people and end up happier as friends. I don't know, and I'm not planning for anything. I just feel like there is something there that isn't finished, but I won't be the one pursuing if it happens. She'll have to convince me that it's what she wants, and she's not just settling for me because she realized she couldn't find better (she won't, because I am freakin' awesome).

My plan for the future is to be friendly with her, but not over do it until I am ready. It may take awhile before I can actually be her friend, but I really do want that. Time apart and getting my own life together will help. We will be in each others lives forever thanks to our kids, and at this point I think being friends is the best thing that we can give them. If they aren't going to see us work through our problems to stay married, they can at least see us as a united parental unit that cares for them and treats each other with love and respect. Eventually, I hope to be strong enough to have the four of us sit down and have dinner as a family on a regular basis with no feelings of regret or lingering sadness.

I know some of this goes against typical DB practices, but I'm not doing this for her. My goal isn't to get her back. My goal is to do what I feel is best for my family (me, my kids, and her, in that order). Regardless of what is happening, I still consider her my family. If there were no kids, I'd go dark, but that's not possible. I want my kids to see us in the best possible light. I'll be okay. No, I'll be great.

This may seem like a drastic shift form Monday, but this is where I've been headed. I've known this was going to be the result since we first met with her therapist when we attempted MC. Monday just hit me like a ton of bricks. We're allowed to feel emotions, and experience the ups and downs. This is what makes life worth living. The good would get boring without the bad. My old W never would have had the strength to actually contact a lawyer and start the divorce process. She's stronger now, and I can honestly say I'm proud of her. The woman she is becoming is a woman I could see spending my life with, but that's not for me to decide. Perhaps some day in the future, but for now I've got me. And I'm damn good company.


Married: 9, Together: 16
Me:33, W:34, D:6, S:3
BD: 1/1/18
EA confirmed: 2/7/18
I moved out 6/1/18
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Quote:
My plan for the future is to be friendly with her, but not over do it until I am ready. It may take awhile before I can actually be her friend, but I really do want that. Time apart and getting my own life together will help. We will be in each others lives forever thanks to our kids, and at this point I think being friends is the best thing that we can give them. If they aren't going to see us work through our problems to stay married, they can at least see us as a united parental unit that cares for them and treats each other with love and respect. Eventually, I hope to be strong enough to have the four of us sit down and have dinner as a family on a regular basis with no feelings of regret or lingering sadness.


I agree with you. I hope you will give effecient space and time before trying to be her "friend". You can act friendly when swapping kids, etc., but that is different from being her BFF. I believe the attraction can return, if you don't settle into the mindset of a friend too quickly and let it happen naturally. I know you want to have some type of normalcy for your kids, by giving them time acting like a family again. I hope it will work to everyone's advantage, and that the four of you will be together again full time.

I have felt that your W had issues that stemmed from her past and had caught up with her. It good to hear she is getting better through counseling. With both of you growing individually......and finding yourselves......there is hope you will find each other again.

Don't forsake us on the board. We still want to hear from you, okay?

((hugs))


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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