No affair(?), no feelings...is there hope? Part II

[44tries]

Original thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2783627#Post2783627

I feel like I earned a stripe or something making it to a part 2... I retained the original title for consistency but added a ? to the affair part, since there is clearly some inappropriate texting obsession going on, the extent of which I do not know.

[44tries]

Yes, it is very possible! Realistically, this may be the most challenging task you've ever taken........should you decide to do it. Changing a life long mindset is not as easy as it may sound. People can change, if they want it badly enough, and if they work at it hard enough. You can try to change simply as a ploy to keep your W from leaving you.....but it won't last. You can't change yourself to appease her. You have to change b/c this is not working for you.

I am relieved to hear it is possible; that is all I need to know. I am committed to making these changes for myself, with or without my W, because I am fully aware of the impact these issues will continue to have on my future relationships if I don't fix them. I agree I think this might be the hardest task I've ever undertaken, but I am a person that thrives on intense challenges and the rewards in this case will be well worth it if I succeed.

I encourage you to finish reading the book on nice guy syndrome. I hope you have the right one.

I'm pretty sure I have the right one...googling it looks like there is one main book on the topic that is much more popular than any other. This is the one I have and it has been extremely helpful and relatable for me.

What I was trying to say previously, is to complete the tasks that you know are your responsibility. Don't wait for her to tell you, when you already know. That's what kids do. They wait for their mother to tell them to do it. Mothers are not sexually attracted to their children. And W's are not sexually attracted to a H they have to mother. Got it?

Got it. The chores are something I have had to work on since the very beginning of our relationship (I was extremely messy as a single person; growing up, my mom did not care at all about housework so I had a lot of learning to do). Now, I am totally transformed. W doesn't need to tell me to do things. However, your point about her acting like my mother is a good one. She does this in other ways, not by telling me to do chores. But rather things like asking if I remembered to bring my wallet, for example. One time I forgot it and it was a big ordeal, and now she asks almost every time we leave the house together. It annoys me, but I just say yes, I have it. I agree that the fact she treats me this way is a big problem. I'm not sure how to change it, though, besides making sure I'm not doing irresponsible childish things. I will say I would not consider myself an excessively irresponsible or forgetful person, so I will have to think more about how this dynamic came about in the first place.

This 70%\30% responsibility doesn't work...,..I can tell ya. If done correctly, the chores that fall into your 70% should be designated, as should those that fall into her 30%. Otherwise, you risk getting into the blame game.......which apparently has already happened. The adult thing to do is to have an agreement about who does what.

I agree. After living this way for one year now, I can say that I pretty much feel responsible for 100% because there aren't set guidelines. W is not reluctant to help, and on weekends we will deep clean together, especially if we're having company. But, otherwise, she comes home from work and doesn't think about doing anything.

The goal in this situation is to pull back your availability. Currently, she snaps her fingers and you do whatever she says. This is not attractive in men. In order to draw attraction, you have to stop acting like her child, and tell her you have made other plans. Don't make up some lie or excuse. Just simply tell her you don't want to work in the yard. (She will learn to ask you ahead of time, and not wait until you are GAL to ask). Bear in mind, however, you should not say it in a manner to sound like an a-hole. Know what I mean? Neither should you act apologetic.........b/c why should you feel sorry? Don't feel guilty (and she'll probably try to play the guilt card), but if you've handled your end of the responsibilities, then don't fall for the guilt card. Just politely tell her you aren't going to do yard work that afternoon. Don't argue with her. Don't feel you have to be accountable to her. You are a man, not a boy. You are her H, not her child.

I understand. I am not worried about sounding like an a-hole; I am much more likely to unintentionally sound apologetic. I definitely have the part of NGS where 'sorry' is often the first thing out of my mouth out of habit. I have identified this and am now careful to make sure that word is banned from my vocabulary unless truly warranted.

Now, here is an example of what the guy with NGS usually does. He'll start out whining and say something like, "Well gee, honey, I really wanted to XYZ this afternoon, couldn't we do the yard work next week? I promise, I'll get through with the projects.........I'll make it up to you". (This is his way of asking her permission to have the time off). Okay, then she starts getting angry at him, so he feels like he has to save himself, and he comes up with some lie or excuse to get him off the hook. And, just to be on the safe side, he is extra nice and accommodating to her for the remaining evening/weekend. When she is cold or b'tchy, he just endures.......just like that old doormat where she wipes the dog poop off her shoes.

Wow, it's almost like you know me! This example is very illustrative. I can clearly see how I would do exactly the kinds of things you state and why they are a problem.

Your challenge will be in standing up to her and saying, "No", without giving pages of explanations, or a list of excuses/lies, and without being apologetic or feeling as if you have to be over accommodating. Your problem will be in knowing how to stay balanced. How do you show self-confidence and strength without looking like a jerk? How do you tell her you aren't going to stop your studying to go get something and run up the stairs, just b/c she asked? How do you tell her, "Um, you'll have to do it yourself, dear", instead of discussing it with her (like you previously asked us). There's no need to turn it into a big discussion. See, you want to change things by talking about it. You talk it to death, but that needs to stop. If she's not dense, she'll catch on, don't you think? The key is to stay consistent. The only time you should make an exception is when it really is necessary.......like if she is sick in bed or something.

I have heard this before...from my W. I am a total over-talker, over-explainer. I am on a mission to just stop talking about anything and prove any point I need to make with actions (especially during DB). If she requests something, I will just give a simple, polite response that says "no". Do you think something like, "Sorry, I'm in the middle of something. Do you mind getting You'll have to get it yourself" is appropriate? The strikethroughs are me attempting to correct my instinctive response if I were to tell her no. You are very right about my biggest struggle being the balance between strong and confident vs jerk.

H's in your position often try to score points with their W, b/c it's an old behavior pattern he's developed. He'll find himself in the doghouse.......and maybe he knows why, or maybe he doesn't. Either way, he figures his only out is to make as many brownie points with his W as possible. This is not a trait that places the H in a more respectable position in the MR, nor will it score attraction. If you are guilty of this behavior, your emotions may tell you to go that old route......but I hope you won't. During this time of reinventing yourself, you need to learn new behaviors and solutions, rather than falling back on old habits.

Also me. Consciously rewiring my brain now. It has to be intentional every single day until new habits are formed.

Another common behavior I see in many H with NGS, is over explaining himself to the W. He thinks his mission in life is to make/keep his W happy. Therefore, when he sees her getting upset with him, or suspects that she will........he starts explaining himself out of a jam. He goes on & on & on. To her ears, he just sounds weak. It doesn't matter the excuses he gives.......he sounds like the excuse to her. So, if you tend to over explain your mess ups, save your breath. Hold your chin up and go forth like a man! If you owe an apology, seriously, then give a very short, "I apologize", or "Sorry about that".....and that's all. Let it go and move on. No big productions, okay?

Yup. Like I said above, over-talker, over-explainer, over-apologizer. Guilty on all accounts.

One more thing I want to leave with you. I'll see a H on the board who eagerly quotes something to his W that he got straight off someone's post. Hey, it sounded pretty cool to him and he thinks it's what his W needs to hear. But guess what? It does not impress her. She is immediately alerted to the fact he got it from a book or some other place, b/c it doesn't sound like something he would say.....or else, he uses it out of context and makes himself look like an idiot. In the first place, you don't want to quote something that will lead her straight to this board. In the second place, these tools are for you.....not her. You can't say it to her and think it will fix her.....or even impress her a wee bit.

Finally, something I will NOT be guilty of. No worries here.

Thank you so much, Sandi. Your insights and suggestions are incredibly helpful and I really appreciate the time you took to write it all out.

[sandi2]

It's great to see you willing to work on yourself, plus you know what to change.

I am on a mission to just stop talking about anything and prove any point I need to make with actions (especially during DB).

At first, I thought you meant to completely stop talking. Finding balanced seems to be difficult for a lot of people......but I see what you are saying.

Do you think something like, "Sorry, I'm in the middle of something. Do you mind getting You'll have to get it yourself" is appropriate? The strikethroughs are me attempting to correct my instinctive response if I were to tell her no. You are very right about my biggest struggle being the balance between strong and confident vs jerk.

Yes, your example is great. Just so long as you understand you don't have to give an excuse for not running to do whatever she said. Just saying a flat "no" can sound rude, and we humans feel we have to add something with it. It sounds as if you may have spoiled her, being as accommodating as you are. So, she may be persistent. You will have to be resolved to break the habit.

Thank you so much, Sandi. Your insights and suggestions are incredibly helpful and I really appreciate the time you took to write it all out.

You are very welcome. I encourage you to set goals to help yourself improve in these areas.

[44tries]

Update/random thoughts and notes for the day:

I finally received DR in the mail! Read through about half of it last night; it didn't disappoint. Will keep reading tonight.

W told me today she "found me a road bike". Crazy good deal. I told her thanks, but I don't think I have the money to drop on that right now (technically, our money is shared; I was just politely deflecting). She says, "I do". I looked at the pictures and said it looks nice. Now I don't think she will actually buy it and I certainly won't bring it up again, but I am confused by this behavior.

Today she also declared she was "taking her hour". This is something she used to do when she came home from work because, after being by myself most of the day, I would often inundate her with talking as soon as she walked in the door. Of course, she was tired and just wanted to relax and this was a source of conflict. So, we decided that after she comes home she gets an hour to herself to nap, read, watch TV, whatever, before we would have any long discussions or tackle tasks etc. I thought it was a bit odd for her to casually announce this, as she gets unlimited hours to herself these days.

Tonight she came into the bedroom to change and said, "how about I sleep in the bed tonight?" Note that I have been sleeping in the bed for two weeks now since the very first couple nights after BD. She referred back to our original arrangement of switching off and that it hasn't been happening. I said, "You're right, but I thought about it, and since you're the one that doesn't want to sleep in the bed, I think it makes sense that you be the one to choose somewhere else to sleep." She said okay, "No, it's fine, you said your words. Have your throne, your majesty." And she left. She wasn't mad per se; more like accepting that I was probably right but she's not too happy about it. I hope I did the right thing here?

Last note, and I just wonder if anyone else has encountered this. My dog (I say mine because he was mine originally as opposed to the other two) has been totally screwed up by our separation. He is an anxious, extremely people-oriented dog to begin with (German Shepherd/Golden Retriever mix). But now I don't even know what to do with him. He has become neurotic about staying on the stairs/near the bedrooms. We can't get him to go outside to go to the bathroom once it's dark and he has been peeing in the house. He can't handle the fact that we don't sleep in the same room. He cries all night, opens doors trying to go in between and refuses to leave my W's room until she comes out with him and locks him back in with me. At bedtime, he goes in there and is visibly devastated when she tells him to go and he realizes she isn't coming. Even she acknowledges it's the saddest thing ever. I can't even imagine if we had kids. My heart goes out to all you guys in that situation.

[sandi2]

I looked at the pictures and said it looks nice. Now I don't think she will actually buy it and I certainly won't bring it up again, but I am confused by this behavior.

Expect the odd, unusual, abnormal, and crazy behavior in her......and you won't be confused. Place absolutely no expectations in what she says or how she acts with you.

Today she also declared she was "taking her hour".

A lot of people need an hour to unwind after they get home from working all day, especially if they have stressful jobs. When I was a SAHM, I would hit my H with all my saved up words as soon as he walked in the door. I know how it can feel a bit rude and insulting, but some people can't handle all our "chatter". Mark it down to the differences in your psychological make up, and give her the hour. It's better than rolling her eyes or covering her ears when you talk.

Tonight she came into the bedroom to change and said, "how about I sleep in the bed tonight?" Note that I have been sleeping in the bed for two weeks now since the very first couple nights after BD. She referred back to our original arrangement of switching off and that it hasn't been happening. I said, "You're right, but I thought about it, and since you're the one that doesn't want to sleep in the bed, I think it makes sense that you be the one to choose somewhere else to sleep." She said okay, "No, it's fine, you said your words. Have your throne, your majesty." And she left. She wasn't mad per se; more like accepting that I was probably right but she's not too happy about it. I hope I did the right thing here?

Was she saying "it's fine your majesty" or you? If it was her, then don't worry about her not being happy about it, you handled it well.

Last note, and I just wonder if anyone else has encountered this. My dog (I say mine because he was mine originally as opposed to the other two) has been totally screwed up by our separation. He is an anxious, extremely people-oriented dog to begin with (German Shepherd/Golden Retriever mix). But now I don't even know what to do with him. He has become neurotic about staying on the stairs/near the bedrooms. We can't get him to go outside to go to the bathroom once it's dark and he has been peeing in the house. He can't handle the fact that we don't sleep in the same room. He cries all night, opens doors trying to go in between and refuses to leave my W's room until she comes out with him and locks him back in with me. At bedtime, he goes in there and is visibly devastated when she tells him to go and he realizes she isn't coming. Even she acknowledges it's the saddest thing ever. I can't even imagine if we had kids. My heart goes out to all you guys in that situation.

Dogs are very sensitive when there is something wrong the house. The local vet might give you some advice over the phone, IDK. If there is a trainer, or something like adog whisperer (whatever they are called), maybe you could contact them. If not, there's always Google. Does your W seem concerned about the dog?

[44tries]

This morning I woke up to a message from a mutual friend of ours that said "How you been holding up?"

I have to admit I was surprised and disappointed as I have been wondering if my W has been telling people. It makes it feel more "real" to know she has.

I would love to talk to this friend, but I sense that I should just say "I'm doing fine, thanks for checking in." I don't think it's a malicious spy attack, but I am very aware that I have no guarantee that anything I say won't get back to my W. I trust the friend, but let's be honest, people like to talk. Am I right to think this way or can I have a bit more candid conversation?

[44tries]

Major update:

W left her phone in the bathroom this morning when she went downstairs. I couldn't resist, she didn't even change her password.

Took me 10 seconds to find all that I needed to know. Affair confirmed. They have had physical contact - kissing, minimum. Could be more, don't know, don't care. This means she cheated in the week before BD. That part stings. But I was prepared for this, I'm not an idiot. Glad to have seen confirmed evidence with my own eyes, without any more than necessary to add to the pain.

Don't think it changes anything for me, DB-wise, right? If anything, it will be easier to stand my ground and not accommodate her at all anymore. Now I can truly spend the time thinking if this is something I can get past and if I even want her back.

[sandi2]

Sorry to hear about her A. You are right that it doesn't change your DB plan.

[MoveFrwd]

That [censored]. But I guess at least you know and dont have to keep wondering.

Now I can truly spend the time thinking if this is something I can get past and if I even want her back.

Dont waste your time on that at ALL. She isnt trying to reconcile now, so what they do/did doesnt matter. Please focus on you and what you need to do. It will be worth so much more.

[SteveLW]

Tonight she came into the bedroom to change and said, "how about I sleep in the bed tonight?" Note that I have been sleeping in the bed for two weeks now since the very first couple nights after BD. She referred back to our original arrangement of switching off and that it hasn't been happening. I said, "You're right, but I thought about it, and since you're the one that doesn't want to sleep in the bed, I think it makes sense that you be the one to choose somewhere else to sleep." She said okay, "No, it's fine, you said your words. Have your throne, your majesty." And she left. She wasn't mad per se; more like accepting that I was probably right but she's not too happy about it. I hope I did the right thing here?

Excellent work here. Seriously, this is perfect. She is leaving the M. She left the MB. She should be the one to sleep elsewhere.

Last note, and I just wonder if anyone else has encountered this. My dog (I say mine because he was mine originally as opposed to the other two) has been totally screwed up by our separation. He is an anxious, extremely people-oriented dog to begin with (German Shepherd/Golden Retriever mix). But now I don't even know what to do with him. He has become neurotic about staying on the stairs/near the bedrooms. We can't get him to go outside to go to the bathroom once it's dark and he has been peeing in the house. He can't handle the fact that we don't sleep in the same room. He cries all night, opens doors trying to go in between and refuses to leave my W's room until she comes out with him and locks him back in with me. At bedtime, he goes in there and is visibly devastated when she tells him to go and he realizes she isn't coming. Even she acknowledges it's the saddest thing ever. I can't even imagine if we had kids. My heart goes out to all you guys in that situation.

Stop talking to her about this. If she brings it up again I'd say something like "Yeah, he'll get used to it eventually." and then drop it. She is probably getting a little kick out of the fact that the dog's behavior concerns you. Just deal with it and act to her like it is no big deal.