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I have been reading the forum for 3 weeks and have a question to ask.Before I do so, I was wondering if there was a proper place to introduce myself and my situation?

Last edited by Cadet; 03/11/18 02:28 PM.

Me:37 W:42
T:14 yrs M:10.5 yrs
D:7 D:5
BD: 1/6/18 OM Discovered: 1/29/18
WW moved out 5/12/18
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Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.


Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon


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Yes. Right here.

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This past year has been very stressful but first a little bit about my situation. I met my wife through mutual friends in 2004. She had recently been cheated on by her fiancé and lost her younger brother/only sibling in an auto wreck. I recently had been left by the love of my life/only girlfriend (of 5 years) when she entered college. My wife was beautiful, strong and independent. I was living at home recently out of college. My wife took right care of me and life was grand, however I refused to pamper her like my ex girlfriend and I let my wife know this (something I currently still regret-the choice I made, not telling my wife). As time went on, I decided to buy a home in 2005 instead of pay rent for her apartment. I bought a fixer upper raised ranch that needed the entire lower level rebuilt. I did all the work on nights and weekends because it was the only way I could afford it. We grew closer, loved doing new adventures together and shared the same dreams, goals, and morals. She told me she hated liars and cheaters and would walk away before ever cheating.

We got engaged in 2006 and married in 2007. 2008 rolls around and out of now where my wife did not know if she wanted to still be married. She had been acting bipolar, perfectly calm one minute and the next fly off the handle and turn into a royal bitch. So we had been arguing over pointless things. I had seen her vehicle at guys house who had been chasing her when we were dating. I suspected an affair as our love life had decreased some. She assured me that she was just visiting his Mother. My wife agreed to see the doctors about her sudden mood swings. I bought her some flowers and said sorry for being immature at times and fighting over little things. She got on some meds for bipolar something or other and became her old self again within 2 weeks.

We grew closer again and in 2010 we had our first daughter. Life was great and in 2012 we had another daughter. Now she is playing full time Mom (does all the laundry, cooking, and shopping). I do the dishes, house and yard work. We continue on this journey and I thought everything was great, if my wife ever wanted my help just say hey. I hate to sit idle and am always working on one thing or another. So last year after being in our home for 12 years, we find a home in our home town that we would love to buy. 5 acres, in-ground pool, two garages,etc. My house still was not finished. Then we find out an offer had been made on the home we wanted. So I had to put in an offer on the home higher than the previous. The sellers agreed but I had 30 days to get our home under contract and 60 days to sell. Remember at the beginning I said this past year was stressful?

Well, we did it. We took time off from work and worked non stop on finishing our home to list it and sell it in the time frame. Not taking any time away from working or being mom and dad, to spend time with each other. One month into our new home, we learn it needs many more repairs than caught during the inspection. I had to threaten to sue (per my realtors advise) because of the costs involved and items not disclosed. Now my wife is getting more stressed out by the day as she never handled stress well. At the same time she learned her best friend of over 30 years is suing her parents over a property dispute! We knew nothing of it, were blind sided! Summer went ok but as the fall came I couldn't put my finger on why my wife so angry all the time. I thought it was stress from being shorthanded at work, coupled with not grieving the loss of her best friend properly. eventually I notice a guy always commenting on her facebook posts. I confronted her about it on 12/30/17 and she said we are just friends, we went to school together and he is a single dad. I had found out from my girls she had face timed him and I was connecting the dots. She had been following similar patterns to 2008! She looked at me and said no we are fine, I am sorry and it wont happen again. That night we had amazing sex and I thought nothing of it. One week later on 1/6/18, she tells me at a basketball practice for my girls that if it were not for them, she would be gone. She was on the verge of a nervous breakdown and went to IC. There she learned she loved me but was no longer in love with me. I never getup first in the morning and feed the girls, I don't cook or offer to bring a meal home, etc. etc. Our marriage has been up and down, etc. I was blown away and asked if there was somebody else. She told me no and I went into super husband mode.

I got up each morning first with the girls, got them feed and dressed before bringing them to school. I started cooking meals, doing all the laundry, starting the car for her before work for my wife and even made coffee for her (something I have never done).
As time went on and I did almost all the work, my wife had it made but she never apologized or thanked me. Her harshness to me had backed off and we were no longer arguing but I noticed she was always on her phone (even taking it to the bathroom which she never does). I called her out and she said she was being honest. I said lets see the phone and that is when she admitted that the innocent talking about life and kids with the OM had led her to have feelings for him. I was crushed again but told her to stop the conversations before it was too late and I would have it in my heart to forgive her. That was 1/29/18. I began researching and reading over the next two weeks and that is when I found this site and learned everything I had done wrong. I stopped saying I love you to her and following her around like a puppy dog. My wife told me she wants to go back to college for a different degree. I have been told by close friends that she did cheat on me in 2008 (they thought I already knew). I don't know this monster of my wife. She is now on AD as well as birthcontrol to help with hormone/cycle issues. I don't believe a thing she tells me and think she has meet up with the OM twice. She is planning on moving out in late april when her parents head to camp for the summer because she is "burned out". I had met with a lawyer and he said now would be the best time to file and when I found out about the affair conformation in 2008 I was about to. Last week she found out I had her online access to a savings account of mine removed. Unfortunately we have always kept finances separate. When she found out I had done that and put it back the way it has been for years (prior to a recent camper purchase), she flipped out and told me shes not stupid she knows I'm planning for a divorce. I am not and have decided that I will not file. I will DB and she will have to be the one who does if it comes to it. I am going to try and leave no stone unturned so I can tell my girls that I tried everything.

So now that is all out of the way, she has slept a few nights on the couch and wakes me up when she comes to bed. Should I be kicking her out of our masterbedroom? I had not in hopes to keep in on the down low from my oldest 7 yr old daughter but she can still sense the tension in the home. Also, when I am working on GAL...how do I keep it from my wife without lying? I had gone out for a beer last week with a buddy and it drove her nuts. She called another friend looking for me. She told my buddies wife she got on my facebook account and wanted to know some girl I had looked up (I don't even know the person so it must have been someone who friend requested me that I don't know). As of last week, I know the conversations with the OM are continuing as I was able to catch her iPhone unlocked one morning and she said good morning sweetie, she wanted to go crawl in bed with him,she loved him. I saw enough and had my proof. I called her out on it when she started questioning me where I had gone and why I was dressed up. I told her when she started telling the truth, I would tell the truth.

So I am looking for some advice mainly on how to live this next 30 days or so knowing she is planning to leave? I don't question the W or talk about it but I need to be here for my girls. I need to GAL and will start going to a gym (for the first time ever as I am fit) once the girls are in bed. I feel like I am stuck in limbo for now.


Me:37 W:42
T:14 yrs M:10.5 yrs
D:7 D:5
BD: 1/6/18 OM Discovered: 1/29/18
WW moved out 5/12/18
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I guess I am struggling and feel that if I do tell my wife to start sleeping on the couch, it will push her further away due to the fact of during the last conversation we had she said her communications with OM can stop. That is when I said then you need to delete his number, delete his FB friendship, and pretend he never existed. She responded ok, but I have been friends with him so I dont think I can pretend he never existed. During that last converstation, I failed to use the opportunity to setup a boundry and say by the way, I want share you and you can now sleep on the couch.

Also, is there ever a time in the short window I have while she is at home (even though I realize she may have or will change her mind about leaving and the decision could go back and forth because she is not thinking logically) that I should tell her what I would do differently from here on out? I don't want to bring light to the changes I'm making but I have realized flaws in our relationship and how I, or we, handled them. I would like her to know in her heart that I see those issues, understand them, and am sorry. Then be able to tell her this is what Id do differently (a,b,c, etc)?? I am struggling with this because it would be a 180 for me and I think it would be an eye opener for her but it could also be seen as a close "ask her if she has seen the changes" type of talk.


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My only input before the real experts chime in: don't be convinced that she will actually leave at the end of April. WWs make plans and don't follow through. Maybe she will, maybe she won't. The OM may not be at a point where he is ready to take on another dependent. Maybe he is. IDK, but I see WWs make those pronouncements all the time and not follow through.


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Thank you Steve.

Last night was odd, instead of watching TV in a different room alone for several hours, my wife watched a TV show with me...and then another one, and another one. Next thing I know we watched TV for 2 hours. This has not happened for months. The entire time she was making comments for small talk.


Me:37 W:42
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Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.

Originally Posted By: Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.

It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.

We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.

Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.


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Originally Posted By: Natash
Thank you Steve.

Last night was odd, instead of watching TV in a different room alone for several hours, my wife watched a TV show with me...and then another one, and another one. Next thing I know we watched TV for 2 hours. This has not happened for months. The entire time she was making comments for small talk.


Could be because of the changes you've made in yourself. Often times when you start to pull back, they will draw near. Remember, she wants to make sure you are there as Plan B. So please do not read too much into it. When her behavior is consistent over a long period of time then you will know she has changed. One night of 2 hour TV watching, while a great first step, is hardly a turnaround for a WW.


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I think this is typical for the spouse to do. I've been on this roller coaster for over a year, and about 6 months ago gradually detached. Since that time, the roller coaster has stopped and she has become more respectful and friendly. The rub is that she has another man for the last several months.

My opinion, based on what IC have said, is that they don't know what they want. They can be searching for a lost identity, or looking for adventure, or whatever. So they waffle between complete independence and interdependence.

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Originally Posted By: WillyO


My opinion, based on what IC have said, is that they don't know what they want.


I think you nailed it, those exact words came out of my wife when she dropped the bomb on me. I am thankful her anger and resentment towards me seems to have backed off even I know it's still there ( she can't handle stress and when the girls start getting on her nerves, her nastyness towards me and life starts to shows).


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So I've read that it gets worse before it gets better and that's where we are. I have noticed a pattern with my wife that she makes plans every other weekend with her one friend that is covering for her to be able to continue to be rebellious and carry on with her affair. I sumized this weekend there would be last minute plans announced. I also summizd she would go to a hotel in town where there is an annual huge St.Pattys day celebration, not to mention she used to work there when she was early 20s and loved it. I said to myself, wouldn't that be convenient...OM can come in from out of town, rent a room, and hang out with my wife. So Saturday rolls around and I had some gal plans in the morning but found out my girls were going to have a sleepover with my W parents. How convenient? This is probably out of guilt because the last time my W went out for a 6hr "lunch" our girls began getting worried and called her often wondering when she was coming home. Kids are away, mom can play right? I so want to ask my MIL what exactly my wife told her the plans were. I wanted to.pick my girls up and bring them home, how dare she use them as pawns! Then I thought about it and realized the girls would be the ones to suffer and I can't have that. So I'm in my room putting away laundry, sticking around to be able to say goodbye to my girls, and realized I had a bag of condoms in my dresser. I decided to count them to make sure none of them disappeared when my wife walked in and laughed. I acted like I was putting away laundry and she said "need condoms?" I said no. She said " oh getting one just in case?" I said no. She then says "or are you counting them?". Isaid what are you talking about? She says I know your cheating on me. And continued to list the 4 times I've left the house for errands or hang out with friends. I said You know better, I'd never cheat on you. I got sucked into a conversation and at one point she said she could leave sooner than planned if needed. I said well nothing seems to be changing so over the next month we will just be further apart. The kids ended up coming into the room so we backed off the conversation. Later that afternoon she left and said she was going to babysit her friends 2 yr old for a bit. I went to help a buddy install a door. Around 6:30 I had not heard anything from her so I sent a text saying "I'm going to grab something to eat, would you like anything". Her response to the text was delayed so I take that as she is running it by her girlfriend. What do I say to him? I get an out of the ordinary "no thank you, I had a late lunch but thanks for asking". I don't respond and then get " I told you I won't be home" (typical wife response but she never did tell me this previously). At bed time I noticed her contact case and toothbrush was missing and thought, here we go. She is staying out tonight for the first time since I've learned of the A. Why would she stay at a married couples house that has a two year old? She could always go out and drink and ask me for a ride. I was tempted to go into the St.Patty's party and see if I see her proving my suspicion but thought it over. I did not want a confrontation and didn't know what I would gain...also got called into work early on a Sunday so I wanted to go to bed.

So here we are, I don't want her to sleep in my mbr any longer and hope she leaves earlier than planned but I'd like to talk to a lawyer before she leaves to make sure it all falls into place favoring myself vs the w. I'd love to have some of the long time posters advice, especially Sandi's. I now see that the NGS is one part of why I am here and I'm tired of being plan b. I don't have a problem filing for divorce but feel it's too early. I am concerned that she takes out a student loan and I'd be on the hook for half of the $40k this summer. I have also checked her credit card balance and it is higher than ever. Please help me out, following the DB rules doesn't seem to be helping and I'm 3/4 through DR.


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Your liability for debts can vary from one jurisdiction to another. Where I am, even if you are married you are only liable for debts in your own name or where you are joint signers. It does indeed vary widely. Ownership and definition of marital assets also varies.

Projection is a common thing that a "wayward" spouse will do - projecting their own behaviours on the other partner. Since she is (possibly) having an affair she assumes you are too. I would think that even if she isn't actively doing that she is a high risk for it.

The first thing you need to decide is what is it that you want. You have yourself and your two girl to consider. One obligation that you have as the LBS is to be the "sane parent" especially if the other parent is off dancing with the fairies.

You have some complex issues going on with both yourself and especially your W since she has a known mental condition which requires medications to treat. I hate to say it but on the surface and with the limited information I can see, your situation is unlikely to dramatically turn around in the short term.

So - presuming that you are heading for divorce there are a variety of things you need to do to "get your ducks in a row". Document financial things. Get credit reports done. Take an inventory of household goods (I just went around with a camera and took pictures of everything including serial numbers). Consult with a lawyer or two to understand the process in your region. Many will give you a free consult. Assuming you will be going for custody document when your W fails in her parenting responsibility. And most importantly, even more than keeping DR to yourself, keep all of this very very quiet. My ex went ballistic when she found out how prepared I was.

One important but cold hearted fact to consider is that at the end of 2018 the tax laws around spousal support will be changing in the US so if you are going to move, you would probably want to have an agreement in place before then.

Good luck. Keep your arms and legs inside the ride at all times. It may get bumpy.


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T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
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Just an update: I've been distancing myself and enjoying any time I get to spend with my girls.

My wife's new bf's husband sent me a text recently out of no where (having texted for over a month with him). Stating that I should not be talking about his wife and saying she is filling my W's head full of [censored]. I never said this or anything along the lines. I dont know what the W BF is or isnt telling her. I very rarely speak about other people and never try to do it behind there backs as I am a very honest and upfront person. I told him there were more than one inaccurate statements in his text and maybe its time to meet up for a beer and talk. He said that could be arranged. Less than 24 hours later his wife texts me stating the same thing. How they want to be there for me and I haven't reached out to them (didnt think it was my responsibility or the best thing to do as it would create a loop between me and the W. Not to mention, my other friends that know have reached out and helped me...not the other way around) and now I am saying she is filling my W's head full of BS. I told W BF the same thing, I dont know who has said what to you but lets sit down and talk. Neither one of them responded to my replied texts. I am thinking the W spent the weekend trying to bad mouth me and is fishing?

Then, over the weekend, I bought a new handgun without telling my wife. How could I, she wasn't home. She did not confide with me before having an affair and choose to wreck our M and distance myself from me. I said to myself, I've been wanting one for a while. Bought a top drawer safe for it and put it in the safe by my bedside. W sees the box 2 days later under our bed and asked why I never told her. Continues on how the kids can get it,blah blah blah. I told her she was wrong, but understand her concerns. The gun is locked away, out of sight, out of mind (the kids dont know it exists). She keeps going (via text that I ignored because I had already asked her to have this talk in person and not txts when at work) on how it needs to be put up higher and out of reach. She's acting like it is the first time a gun came into the home...no mention of the shotgun that has been bedside for years. Just needed to vent.


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This is not a political viewpoint about guns. I just don't think it is the wisest decision to have guns so handy, when there are serious problems between the spouses. Maybe I watch the ID channel too much!

Bringing a revolver into the house has clearly upset her. You are dealing with an irrational woman. That can be dangerous, in itself.

My thoughts are that it may not have been the best timing to bring a revolver home. eek


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Originally Posted By: sandi2


My thoughts are that it may not have been the best timing to bring a revolver home. eek




Thank you Sandi, I appreciate your view point and totally understand. I will remove the gun safe and gun from the home until she leaves. By doing so, wont this send her the message she is still in control or is it more of a validating response?

I am at the beginning of my journey to detach and GAL, other than those two things do you have any advice on home I should interact with her over the next 4-6 weeks before she moves out?

I was concerned last night she was going to use the handgun issue as a starting point for a discussion. Much to my surprise she never mentioned it and was very friendly to the point it was annoying. For example, she saw I was looking for something in the pantry. She figured out I wanted a snack and then started naming what was around to eat. I said I'll just have two oreo cookies. She continued to list off items even after I had left the room. This is the old wife, caring and helping, often times catering to me. Later on she asked to borrow a cellphone charger that in the past she would just take. Then she made it a point to find me and tell me she returned it. I have a hard time with these swings of emotions and want to make sure I am staying on track. I talked with another lawyer today and at the end of the consultation, he reaffirmed my thought that right now is not the time to file for divorce. He did this by asking me if I thought she would attend IC. I said I thought she would eventually but believe the first three sessions she did was forced or talked into by someone other than me. When I asked her to go with me she agreed but pushed it off and never went. No sense in going if you are still in an affair right? If I pursuade her to go it wont help but maybe a few months down the road it could be mentioned? The lawyers point was also to come to agreement together outside of court and it helps everything (even if we divorce) because it will cause less tension and we have years left that we will be seeing each other and attending school functions, graduations, etc. I think this put into perspective time a little for me. Lets take it day by day with no expectations, continue to work on myself, and see how things go.


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Quote:
By doing so, wont this send her the message she is still in control or is it more of a validating response?


In this instance, I think the message it would send to most mothers who have children in the house, is that you are applying wisdom over personal feelings. It's not necessary to explain to her the whys and wherefores. In fact, I'd advise against it.

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I am at the beginning of my journey to detach and GAL, other than those two things do you have any advice on home I should interact with her over the next 4-6 weeks before she moves out?


If she is civil, you can interact as if she was a little old lady who was paying for room & board there. Think about that scenario. Would you feel you had to entertain a boarder? Would you discuss personal or intimate subjects? Would you give details whenever you left the house or made GAL plans? Would show her physical affection......hang around her room, try to sneak a little hug or touch? Would you get flirty, make jokes with sexual induindos, tell her how hot she looks, etc? Would you clean up after her, run her errands, etc? Would you act cold, sullen, or angry toward her? Would you ask her nosy questions about her activities, whereabouts, and other details about her personal life? Would you feel you needed to invite her along on activities with your children, escort her to events, or include her when visiting your relatives/friends? Do you see the picture here? You would be polite, considerate, and make small talk. After all, she would be staying under the same roof. However, there would be a distinct line you would not cross, trying to treat her too familiarly, and/or persuade her to be more than just someone who was renting a room. This may not be a perfect scenario, but I hope it gives you an idea on how to interact with her.

You may find it becomes difficult when she falls into her old wifey habits, such as telling you what's in the pantry, asking when you'll be home, wanting you to run to the store, washing your clothes, etc. Realize she doesn't see you in the same light you are trying to see her. She sees you as the poor guy she's dumping. As long as everything falls to suit her, she'll probably remain friendly. And that should relieve some tension in the environment. Of course, it won't be a piece of cake for you, b/c you are in pain and have such an emotional need to work things out with her. It will actually get on your nerves that she is being "nice". Remember, her nice behavior is not a sign she's changed her mind. Do not read anything into what she says or does unless and until she ends her affair and is remorseful for the damage she has caused and her betrayal to you.

I agree with the second lawyer's consultation advice. It is better to keep these as agreeable as possible. Just understand something......agreeing with everything a wayward wants, hoping it will draw her affection for him......doesn't work. Making an enemy doesn't help either, BTW.

Don't compromise your integrity. Stand by your belief system and your personal standards & principles. Don't get into revenge tactics. Neither should you turn into a wimp. Staying balanced in your thinking is so important. If your head gets as sc@wed up as hers, you'll both go under. You have to save yourself, before you can save anything else.

Be a man with honor and try to do what you feel is the right thing. If you are confused, come to the board and talk it out. You'd be surprised how much it helps. I might add, don't make any big moves or try some new technique or whatever you've read.....until you fully understand it.


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Thank you so much Sanding, it amazes me how clear and helpful you are to each and everyone of us here. I agree with 100 percent of what you wrote and feel I have been doing a good job treating the w as a roommate. ( No longer say good morning, goodbye, good night, etc).

The one struggle I have with what you spoke about is the kids activities. This weekend for instance is Maine Maple Sunday. I plan to take the girls to a local farm with sugar shack to enjoy the homemade maple syrup products. I typically would invite the W so the girls would not pick up on anything and ask questions. You think it's best if I just go with out her? Same for Saturday. Both D5 and D7 got great report cards so I told them I'd take them out for dinner. I figured it would be best if she was part of that meal but maybe that is the NGS in me?


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Thank you so much Sanding, it amazes me how clear and helpful you are to each and everyone of us here. I agree with 100 percent of what you wrote and feel I have been doing a good job treating the w as a roommate. ( No longer say good morning, goodbye, good night, etc).

The one struggle I have with what you spoke about is the kids activities. This weekend for instance is Maine Maple Sunday. I plan to take the girls to a local farm with sugar shack to enjoy the homemade maple syrup products. I typically would invite the W so the girls would not pick up on anything and ask questions. You think it's best if I just go with out her? Same for Saturday. Both D5 and D7 got great report cards so I told them I'd take them out for dinner. I figured it would be best if she was part of that meal but maybe that is the NGS in me?


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Quote:
The one struggle I have with what you spoke about is the kids activities. This weekend for instance is Maine Maple Sunday. I plan to take the girls to a local farm with sugar shack to enjoy the homemade maple syrup products. I typically would invite the W so the girls would not pick up on anything and ask questions. You think it's best if I just go with out her? Same for Saturday. Both D5 and D7 got great report cards so I told them I'd take them out for dinner. I figured it would be best if she was part of that meal but maybe that is the NGS in me?


Kids activities are a struggle when the H starts to implement actions similar to the renter/boarder scenario. Some activities may be unavoidable, while still living under the same roof. For instance, if the kids had a birthday and W invited family.......you would not leave and not share in their birthday party.

There are some times you can make activities a "DD Day" (Daddy & Daughters Day). I think you have to use your best judgment here. If you decide you don't want her along, then tell her privately, and in advance. Don't wait till the day of the activity. You know her temperament best, and you don't want her telling the girls that Daddy won't let her go. So, some things are a tough call. Some times she won't care, b/c it frees her to do her wayward thing. Unfortunately, I can have a sharp tongue and think of all type of sarcastic responses to a WW wanting to ditch her family/marriage for OM......but expects to join in the fun times. smirk.

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I said well nothing seems to be changing so over the next month we will just be further apart


Keep me straight here. Why the timeframe of a month. Were you referring to her moving out in a month? How did she respond when you made that statement?

Also, let me back up to another post, where you referred to no more saying good morning or good bye. If an elderly lady was renting a room from you, I think you would speak if/when seeing her first thing in the morning. And if she was in the room where you exit when leaving for work, you'd say good-bye. Same thing when you came home after work. However, the main point here is that you don't go out of your way. You don't chase her down or go looking for her whenever you are ready to depart or when you return.....or saying good night. That's just my view point. Keep it short and polite.

My grandparents took in a boarder once. He was a kind, elderly man, and we all thought a lot of him. He would join the family at mealtime and we included him in our small talk. In the evenings, we would gather in the family room, and he would join us for a short period, before retiring to his room. Of course, the boarder and my grandmother did not share any children......... eek Otherwise, I draw the boarder scenario from that personal experience. In fact, we even lived there with them for a couple of months.

If a schedule, transportation, or whatever for the kids needs to be discussed.......it should be addressed at home and in advance. That should cut down on texting back & forth. If she will conduct herself appropriately at the dinner table, it could be discussed then.....as the kids are likely to bring it up. But if she is going to get ugly and verbally cut you down......then save it until you can talk to her privately. Showing disrespect to either parent in front of the kids is bad.


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Originally Posted By: sandi2
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[quote]I said well nothing seems to be changing so over the next month we will just be further apart


Keep me straight here. Why the timeframe of a month. Were you referring to her moving out in a month? How did she respond when you made that statement?




Yes, I was referring to her leaving around the end of April. When I said that to her, she calmly said "I can now if you want but it will be much harder" (her dad works shift work and is currently living there and won't be to camp until the end of the month). Then the kids came around, she felt the conversation was starting to loop back in a circle any ways so we went on with our separate tasks. At times I wish she would go sooner but I know the inlaws would get told I kicked her out during this difficult time and I added more stress and shows how I'm still selfish not caring about her health and stress,etc etc. I would be the bad person so I told myself I can ride it out another month. On the opposite view, I wonder if the time she is how many improvements she's seen. I have never asked her but she made the comment about me staying home with the girls two days in a row last week in snow days when I didn't need to (i work for my family's small business and she has in the past stayed home on snow days because she gets 4 times more paid leave than I do. I only have 5 personal days). I told her yes, I have made some changes and my old self is gone. (I am now putting my family first before work as opposed to before they got equal attention).


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Get use to being the bad guy. Every WW makes the H the bad guy. That's how she justifies breaking up her marriage. You know the truth, and others will believe whatever. It doesn't mean you have to prove to everyone she is wrong.

One of the things I've noticed about H's who have the NGS, is that in his need to control things, he will often want someone else to do the hard work. He may tell his W's parents or her closest friends, in hopes they will talk sense into her and get her to stay. I have even seen some H's inform the OM's W about the A, in hopes that she will have the guts to do what he doesn't. If he can't accomplish something by discussing it......then he wants someone else to use tougher love, while he can sit quietly by......being the nice guy.

Quote:
On the opposite view, I wonder if the time she is how many improvements she's seen.


Look, you should not try to get "good enough" for her. That is not the point of improving yourself. Besides, when you point out to her how you've been working on yourself.......it reinforces her false reasoning for leaving you in the first place. If anyone should work to get "good enough" for their spouse, it should be the wayward W! Don't you see, by telling her how you are trying to change.....it makes her feel entitled to treat you badly. She sees it as your admission. I realize that is hard to logically understand about someone you love. She has a different mindset now. This is not the girl you married. And, you sure don't want to give her the idea you are trying to win her back......and especially not trying to get good enough that she'll take you back. sick That is not the correct approach. You improve yourself, b/c you want to become a better man.......for yourself. If she gets smart, she'll stay and reap the benefits of you being a stronger male in the MR. Currently, she is not using any wisdom. Okay, so stop playing up to her, and get busy learning what you need to do. wink

Not to discourage you, but to show you what I mean........many H's before you, have tried to fix his W's old complaints. Then, he would be so pleased at all his hard work, only to hear her say that it didn't change her feelings. He may have removed some excuses she'd used against him....(legit or not), but it didn't make her feel anymore attracted to him as a man. I mean, you could treat her like a queen, but it would not effect her attraction for you as a man/husband. Do you follow what I'm saying?

Sometimes it's not as much in how good you treat her....but in how you allow her to treat you so badly. If she can show disrespect for H, without facing any consequences......I promise you, it kills her attraction. Sitting her down and explaining how it hurts you when she shows disrespects......was, maybe, good for the first offense. After that, no more talks will accomplish better behavior, or get her respect. She has to see what the man is going to do about it.

Every woman will eventually test her H in some way. It's usually when she's feeling resentful and she'll make some snide remark, some facial or body language that expresses how put out she feels with him. If he lets it go, then she'll not think of what a great guy she has.......but she'll think he's not much of a man to let her away with it, and next time she'll say or do a little more that shows she's losing respect for him. By the time she's in an A, she's been disrespecting him in little ways for a long time. Maybe he wouldn't admit it to himself, or he thought he was taking the higher ground to be the bigger person......but nevertheless, she lost respect every time she belittled him, made fun at his expense, showed anger at him in front of the kids, etc, etc.

Anyway, let me make something clear. The WW does not leave the M as some type of warning bell that her H had better shape up or lose her. He has already lost her! She's done with him. If he finds his manhood, there's a chance they could get together. But he if he wants her heart......then, he cannot act like her little dog who is learning tricks to please her, but rather, he becomes a man who doesn't take her sh't treatment......nor the load of cr@p she tries to feed him.

Don't get me wrong. Women want to be respected and loved. They want a good man. But a man with NGS is confused about how he shows his love. Please study the NGS and note the thought areas you need to change. Until you focus on that part, all this other stuff is useless in saving your MR. The first thing most nice guy H's want to do whenever they learn the WW is in an A, is to prove how much he loves her. No, that's not the time to prove his love.......and besides, she doesn't want it. So, he's just setting himself up for failure. I'm not saying he has to stop loving her. He can love her from a distance. When his W is wayward, he has to apply a tougher side of love. At least, it's tough for the nice guy. Don't let her think you are trying to win her back.

I think I know what you mean about the anger and aggression, when you try to stand up and face her like a man. You have trouble venting the built up anger, and you try to work up the courage or know-how to approach her in a manly way. Trying to bluff self confidence can come across as angry aggression, and the entire experience feels unnatural. You will probably have to start small and work up toward the larger issues.

I encourage you to work on self confidence. Read self help material. Practice on small, less personal, or not as emotional issues. You have to believe in yourself as a man.

I hope you will read about how to have/show male dominance in a MR, b/c this is very important for a man with NGS to grasp. Women are naturally attracted to a man she feels is sexually dominant. However, if you don't fully understand what that means.......then you'll just look like a jerk.

Currently, she doesn't want you, except maybe, as a friend. It will not draw her attraction, b/c she'll see you like her gay friend.......and the relationship with her will never get beyond that point. You can't nice her back, and unfortunately, I don't know if you are convinced of it, yet.

So anyway......keep reading and learning. ((hugs))


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Thank you very much for the thoughtful response Sandi! I have been looking forward to get insight from you like this since I first started reading the boards. I was in awe how well you seemed to be able to grasp our situations and then be able to give guidance.

"One of the things I've noticed about H's who have the NGS, is that in his need to control things, he will often want someone else to do the hard work. He may tell his W's parents or her closest friends, in hopes they will talk sense into her and get her to stay."

Dont get me wrong, I love to work and often enjoy hard work but Im guilty. I did both, shared our sitch with my MIL and my W BF hoping they could give her some guidance along the way. I am now regretting both of those choices I made. At the time, I figured Id be upfront and honest and who knew if Id have the chance to ever give my side of the story? Now I feel both parties are listening to my W and they are making me out to be the bad guy. I am not, some with see that, some will not.

Thank you for reenforcing why the changes are personal and private. I never viewed it that way but now completely see how if I admit that a change is needed, W will say "see what I mean?" and justify in her mind that she was right in her choice(s).

"It's usually when she's feeling resentful and she'll make some snide remark, some facial or body language that expresses how put out she feels with him. If he lets it go, then she'll not think of what a great guy she has.......but she'll think he's not much of a man to let her away with it, and next time she'll say or do a little more that shows she's losing respect for him. By the time she's in an A, she's been disrespecting him in little ways for a long time."

I have been part of this for several years. My wife has always had a sharp tounge and it is even sharper when she is upset. I've typically brushed it off and told myself it is who she is. Little did I know, I should have handled this differently. I only stood up at times when I felt strongly against a comment or action knowing it would cause a fight and I don't like confrontation. It got to the point last year I remember looking at my wife and thinking "why have you lost respect for me when I have done so much for us and we are very fortunate to be this successful in life." I no longer allow her to get away with any snide remarks, eye rolls etc...I am calling her out on each of these and did a few times this weekend.

"But a man with NGS is confused about how he shows his love. Please study the NGS and note the thought areas you need to change. Until you focus on that part, all this other stuff is useless in saving your MR. The first thing most nice guy H's want to do whenever they learn the WW is in an A, is to prove how much he loves her."

That was me until I found the board, I went into super husband mode and showed my wife what I could do around the house. Now I know how she viewed this desperate act. I read a lot about the NGS around here and it seems there are several active guys that share an almost identical experience with me and my sitch...do you have any recommendations, pointers, or places to obtain some info on the NGS? I need to correct this but want to make sure I am doing it in the right way. I have found a book I plan to purchase and read but I benefit more from active threads and reading others opinions and pointers/advice.

"Currently, she doesn't want you, except maybe, as a friend. It will not draw her attraction, b/c she'll see you like her gay friend.......and the relationship with her will never get beyond that point. You can't nice her back, and unfortunately, I don't know if you are convinced of it, yet."

Again, spot on. She has told me we did get a divorce, she still wants to be friends but that might be "in a fairytale world". I told her I dont know if that could be possible. Divorce and money can bring out the worst in people,friends would be easier said then done". I do realize that I cant nice her back now. Being too nice is part of the reason we are where we are now.

The problem I currently have is I feel stuck until the next phase happens. Im just starting to GAL. As the snow melts and weather improves, this will be easier as activities around increase. I did some reflecting today and I made two new goals. One-remain as calm as possible around the kids (no matter what the situation. Right now I am the only parent parenting in the house and correcting my girls so sometimes I raise my voice if they don't listen. I am stressed and then their misbehavoir adds to the stress but it is not their fault so I should not be passing it onto them but raising my voice) and two- always be kind and polite to the W, along with working on validating with her thoughts and feelings over the next weeks. I have sometimes been silent which might come off as being cold. I'll use today for instance, she had a nice new red shirt on and I thought "that shirt looks nice on you". I should have told her that but at the time I didnt because I keep telling myself "don't pursue her". Once I thought about it, that wouldn't be persuing her. I could say the same to a little old lady of a house guest right?


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Originally Posted By: Natash
At the time, I figured Id be upfront and honest and who knew if Id have the chance to ever give my side of the story? Now I feel both parties are listening to my W and they are making me out to be the bad guy.


So show them something different. A "nice guy" will try to argue and debate and convince everyone they are wrong and he is right. A man of honor and integrity will just smile and show everyone what he is really made of REGARDLESS of what they say about him. Nice guys base their actions on what others will say and think about them, they do everything for applause and a response. Honorable men base their actions on what their moral compass tells them is right.

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That was me until I found the board, I went into super husband mode and showed my wife what I could do around the house. Now I know how she viewed this desperate act.


Probably, plus housework is just very beta. It's fine to have some beta qualities in a healthy relationship, but nice guys tend to go full-on beta after BD and it just makes them look even less attractive.

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do you have any recommendations, pointers, or places to obtain some info on the NGS?


Read "No More Mister Nice Guy", it's where the term "NGS" originated.

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Being too nice is part of the reason we are where we are now.


No no no, that's not it at all. The whole point of NGS is "nice guys" are NOT nice! They are controlling, manipulative, cunning, deceptive and quite mean in very passive/ aggressive ways. They look "nice" on the surface but underneath they are anything but nice. The title of the book doesn't mean "quit being a nice guy" it's more about addressing all of the above issues and turning guys with NGS into honorable men.

Quote:
I'll use today for instance, she had a nice new red shirt on and I thought "that shirt looks nice on you". I should have told her that but at the time I didnt because I keep telling myself "don't pursue her". Once I thought about it, that wouldn't be persuing her.


Doesn't really hurt to pay her a compliment now and then, as long as you don't do it with any expectations. We talk about treating a WAS like a "friendly neighbor" so that can be your litmus test. If you would say it to a neighbor then in general it's OK to say it to your WAS.


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Originally Posted By: AnotherStander


No no no, that's not it at all. The whole point of NGS is "nice guys" are NOT nice! They are controlling, manipulative, cunning, deceptive and quite mean in very passive/ aggressive ways. They look "nice" on the surface but underneath they are anything but nice. The title of the book doesn't mean "quit being a nice guy" it's more about addressing all of the above issues and turning guys with NGS into honorable men.


Thank you for clarifying, you folks are helping me learn things about myself and my W that I never saw or understood. At times I do come across as controlling and my W will tell you this. I viewed them as expectations, part of being married...I never try to do it in a negative way. I think it came down to how I process things and events in life. I had a roadmap and goals set in my life that I was trying to achieve. I've always wanted a nice family, nice home, beautiful wife,etc. I had all of that and under appreciated it and at times handle things incorrectly. This entire situation and BD with the W blew all that up. I now realize that I can not control anyone but myself and am trying to improve myself wherever I can. Since you pointed this out, I have began reading Dr.Glover's "No more Mr. Nice Guy" and also downloaded some pod casts so I can learn which ways I relate to the MNG and eventually correct those flaws. Thank you AS for the response, I truly appreciate it.

On a different note, Id like to share a quote one of my best friends sent me the other day (he knows both the W and I and knows what we are going through). Other members here may enjoy it, I know I did.

"Don't let your loyalty become slavery. If they don't like what you bring to the table, let them eat alone."


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You are welcome, and believe me you are in good NGS company here, LOL! A shocking number of LBS's are "nice guys". All of the things I mentioned above, I was as guilty of them as anyone. And I know from personal experience that most of us are not doing it to be malicious or mean, we thought that we were doing the right thing. Our motivations were pure, but our methods were not. It's not hard to reform from NGS, because most nice guys are very intelligent and learn fast. So when you hold a mirror up to them and say "look at what you are doing and the impact it's having on others" then they don't like what they see and immediately work on fixing it. So good for you for reading up on this, I am confident you'll recover from it. It takes a while but it's a worthwhile journey.


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Im in need of some advice. My W makes "plans" every other weekend. I knew this coming weekend would be one she wanted to "go out" and give me some song and dance story. Saturday I am planning to take my girls to two easter egg hunts as well as a gathering at my inlaws (I know it might be best to not go but I dont want to ruin Easter for my girls). Sunday, same thing, Easter with my parents so I wondered if my W would make plans for Friday. She has put in extra time at work this week and would be able to leave early and Id never know.

So, five minutes ago I get a text "Do you have plans for Friday". So far I have ignored it. How should I react to this text? Part of me says "nope, I'll be the babysitter while you go out and run wild" but I know that is not the correct response. I do want to be able to spend the time with my girls and if I tell my wife Yes I am doing A,B, or C or ignore it, she will make arrangements to have my MIL watch the girls.


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So, do you have plans for Friday, since you know your W makes plans every other weekend?

If you want the girls, then keep them. If you have plans.....great. But don't try to control what your W does. In other words, don't tell her you have plans, hoping it will keep her from going out........and don't keep the kids to get on her good side. Do what you really want to do, b/c she's going to whatever she wants, anyway.


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No, no plans going out. Was planning to be home with the kids. I'll let her know and say "Have a good time."


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Originally Posted By: Natash
No, no plans going out. Was planning to be home with the kids. I'll let her know and say "Have a good time."


NO DON'T DO THAT. That is very passive/aggressive and exactly what someone with NGS would do. You have NO IDEA what she is thinking, maybe she's going out, or maybe she wants to spend time with the girls, or maybe she's just curious what your plans are. If your plans are to stay home with the kids then tell her that, nothing else. And get that book and read it!


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She told me she needed to know if she had to find someone to watch the girls. I said "I will watch them" and left it at that. I've got the book, almost half way through it. This is such a tough journey and I'm just at the beginning. It's so tempting to throw the towel in now, divorce, and move forward. The problem with that is I'd always second guess that decision by saying what if I waited and see how the separation went. Problem is, u don't know if x amount of time down the road she will or will not show remorse. With out remorse I'd never be able to forgive her enough to respect and trust again. I see why GAL is so important, it'll get this sitch off my mind but until then I'm struggling.


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Originally Posted By: Natash
This is such a tough journey and I'm just at the beginning. It's so tempting to throw the towel in now, divorce, and move forward. The problem with that is I'd always second guess that decision by saying what if I waited and see how the separation went.


Hang in the man this $hit ain't easy. You will be thankful you fought for your kids and your family. That is something you can tell your kids when they are older. I promise you it gets easier and you will have a great life ahead of you in the future if you demand it.

Stay strong!

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Originally Posted By: LH19


Hang in the man this $hit ain't easy. You will be thankful you fought for your kids and your family. That is something you can tell your kids when they are older. I promise you it gets easier and you will have a great life ahead of you in the future if you demand it.

Stay strong!


Thank you lh19, my two innocent girls are the reason I chose to stand for the MR, if it weren't for them I would have filed the day after meeting with the lawyer. I need to be the stable parent and show them I fought as hard as I could, planning for the worst but hoping for the best.


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Good morning friends, I am looking for some advice. I have read that a H needs to show his WW tough love. I also understand I need to detatch and let her go (am working on it). My delima is choosing when to use which one? Should I use let her go over tough love? I know for myself the tough love will be something I have to work on. Right now W is still sharing our Master Bedroom. I feel like if I put my foot down and say enough is enough, you need to sleep else where before moving out that conflicts with the let her go approach. I should have kicked her out right after BD but did not want to rush to any decisions and did not want my girls noticing. I now have a bed setup in a spare room and feel I need more space to be able to continue to detatch. I'm also getting tired of being woken up at whatever hour the W crawls into bed. I think the core issue is I have not been able to come up with any boundaries to enforce while WW is still home (other than calling her out on any disrespectful words/ actions towards the girls or myself).


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N,

The general rule of thumb is if she is in a known active affair you ask her to leave the martial bedroom and or move her stuff out of the bedroom into the guest room. This move shows strength and clearly let's her know you will not share her with anyone else.

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Originally Posted By: Natash
She told me she needed to know if she had to find someone to watch the girls. I said "I will watch them" and left it at that. I see why GAL is so important, it'll get this sitch off my mind but until then I'm struggling.


and from here on out, you do need to start having plans to do things--FOR YOURSELF... WITHOUT your girls... so next time your W asks if you have plans for Friday, you can truthfully say, "yes."... because you are out there GETTING A LIFE!

now go GAL! really!

--artista

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N - Before my W moved out and I realized what was going on the same thing was happening to me. This was before BD and I wish I would have recognized it sooner but I didn't. Looking back I realize it was not very attractive of me to always be at home with the kids even though I thought (at the time) I was being a good parent and spouse by doing this so my W could go out with her friends. Looking back I think about what my W thought about me while I was sitting at home doing this in my sweat pants while she was out living it up, all dolled up with dudes probably hitting on her.

I agree with everyone else......make plans, get out ASAP!


Married 14, Together 17
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Quote:
My delima is choosing when to use which one? Should I use let her go over tough love? I know for myself the tough love will be something I have to work on. Right now W is still sharing our Master Bedroom. I feel like if I put my foot down and say enough is enough, you need to sleep else where before moving out that conflicts with the let her go approach.


I am interested in knowing how you see conflict in the two. What do you see as "tough love" and "letting her go"?

Quote:
I think the core issue is I have not been able to come up with any boundaries to enforce while WW is still home (other than calling her out on any disrespectful words/ actions towards the girls or myself)


I think the core issue is NGS. ((hugs))

Okay, let's talk about your plan, so far. I want to make sure I have it right.

* You are standing for your M. (What does "standing" look like to you)?

*. You will interact with your W as if she is paying for room & board at your home. (Is this correct)?

* You are "letting her go".

* You will not tolerate her disrespect toward you or your children.

If there is more, then add it to your list. In the meantime, I will share my thoughts about these four bullet points above. You can post your thoughts.

To me, "standing for your M", means to remain faithful and honorable to your wedding vows, as long as you are married. It doesn't mean you broadcast how YOU ARE STANDING FOR YOUR MARRIAGE! It doesn't mean you try to get others to agree with you. It doesn't mean you take on acting the role of a victim, get sympathy from others, portray yourself as pitiful to her, try to make her feel guilty, etc. In no sense of speaking, should you ever intentionally appear to her as if you are self-righteous.........or sacrificial. Standing for your M is a personal decision. Allow her the same privilege.

I previously shared my thoughts about interacting as if she were a boarder in the house. Do you feel you are able to relate to that scenario? I just wondered, since the "boarder" is sharing the marital bedroom with you. It is your decision if you want her to sleep elsewhere. It is best for the faithful spouse to remain in the marital bedroom, especially when the faithful spouse is the also the man and head of the home, the protector and provider. I talked more about the symbolic meaning in the marital bedroom and the importance of the husband/father remaining there, in my first thread about the mindset of WW's.

While on the subject of the WW leaving the MBR, let me add the other side of that coin. There are some WW's who are so out of control and can become enraged so easily......things can turn physical if the H tries to force the WW out. I know of at least one case where the cops were called and H was carried to jail, and he never touched his W. He simply continued to throw her things out of the MBR. She was yelling and cursing......I don't know about him. At any rate, this is not something children should witness, and the original purpose of having the WW sleep elsewhere has been lost, if the H has to succumb to the bullying actions of his WW. Any type of domestic violence is not the answer. So, every man has to judge for himself (he knows his W much better than we do) and determine how to deal with it, and if things might get out of hand. Has she said anything about wanting you to sleep in another room?

"Letting her go" is to removing your need to control her. (Don't confuse this with letting her dishonor your boundaries. We can talk about that later). Letting her go is dropping the emotional rope you have tied around her. Currently, you want to pull her back with that rope you've tied around her. Let it go. "Letting her go" is you letting go of having expectations. In other words, you don't do something just to see her response, nor get your hopes up b/c her mood was better one day. You think of her and treat her as if she were no more, and no less, than an elderly lady staying there for room/board. If you'll work at having that mindset toward her, I think you'll see a difference in your feelings.....and certainly in actions.

"Letting her go" doesn't mean you are giving up on the M. It doesn't mean you have to act happy that she's tearing apart the family. It doesn't mean you show approval or disapproval. It just means you stop trying to pressure her. You stop guilting her, and trying to persuad her to stay. As far as she can tell, it looks as if you've stopped striving to save the M. When this happens, she'll feel the pressure release and she'll probably act real friendly and happy. Some WW's even become affectionate toward the H. Don't let it throw you for a loop. She's just responding to feeling the lack of emotional pressure from you.

Calling her out whenever she shows disrespect toward you, is better than just ignoring it. As long as she stops doing the action, then continue calling her out. If she doesn't paathens to you calling her out........then what? That's when you need to implement some action to protect your feelings.......and/or the kids. Your goal is to protect your feelings.......but, I've learned that to a lot H's with NGS......that means to walk away. In some instances that is the best thing to do. However, if it means walking away causes him to look like a wuss, then he needs to do something more effective........otherwise, she's going to continue disrespecting him.

So, what does tough love look like to you?


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Quote:
I am interested in knowing how you see conflict in the two. What do you see as "tough love" and "letting her go"?

I feel tough love would be to stand up to my wife and be firm with her. Like in the past she could roll her eyes at me over something simple that irritated her. Now I tell her "there is no need to roll your eyes at me, I find it disrespectful". Telling her that I won't share her or a bedroom with her also seems like it would fall into this category. Anytime there was a time she needed to feel the consequences of her decisions would be TL too. I guess I feel if I'm showing her feelings even if it is from tough love that it contradicts the let it go theory. I wouldn't show the little old lady for a roommate tough love. Maybe I'm misunderstanding or missing something?

"I think the core issue is NGS. ((hugs))"

Yes, I think you are right. There are many NGS traits I don't have (openly honest,don't use a "hobby" or activity to pacify anxiety, am driven//non procrastenator),etc but when it comes to women, I have many ngs traits.

Quote:
Okay, let's talk about your plan, so far. I want to make sure I have it right.

* You are standing for your M. (What does "standing" look like to you)?

*. You will interact with your W as if she is paying for room & board at your home. (Is this correct)?

* You are "letting her go".

* You will not tolerate her disrespect toward you or your children.

If there is more, then add it to your list. In the meantime, I will share my thoughts about these four bullet points above. You can post your thoughts.

You are exactly correct. I am interacting with my W as she is a roommate. No physical touching, no R talks. We coordinate the weekly meals, she buys groceries, and we take turns preparing meals. Any talks have been about her health, feelings, or topics pertaining to our girls. I am standing to stay true to my vow and I am letting go of my W. She might come back, she might not. I can't control her or have any expectations from her. I can not stand the constant cellphone use/messaging but haven't thought of a way to discuss it without coming across as controlling. So I am biting my teeth and bearing it knowing I can't control her and she will do disrespectful and hurtful things while wayward.

Quote:

I previously shared my thoughts about interacting as if she were a boarder in the house. Do you feel you are able to relate to that scenario? I just wondered, since the "boarder" is sharing the marital bedroom with you. It is your decision if you want her to sleep elsewhere. It is best for the faithful spouse to remain in the marital bedroom, especially when the faithful spouse is the also the man and head of the home, the protector and provider.

I am completely able to relate but struggled with the sleeping arrangements. She has never said she wanted me to sleep else where. You just clarified it for me by saying it is my choice.

Quote:
While on the subject of the WW leaving the MBR, let me add the other side of that coin. There are some WW's who are so out of control and can become enraged so easily......things can turn physical if the H tries to force the WW out. I know of at least one case where the cops were called and H was carried to jail, and he never touched his W. He simply continued to throw her things out of the MBR. She was yelling and cursing......I don't know about him. At any rate, this is not something children should witness, and the original purpose of having the WW sleep elsewhere has been lost, if the H has to succumb to the bullying actions of his WW. Any type of domestic violence is not the answer. So, every man has to judge for himself (he knows his W much better than we do) and determine how to deal with it, and if things might get out of hand.

My wife has a temper and mouth to go with it especially if she has a few drinks. Tonight I was going to move her items out of our room and when she gets back late tonight shed see I had enough...but...I always wondered if it would back fire or be worth it? Would she throw a Tempertantrum and wake the girls? Would she get pissed and say screw you and move stuff back in? Would she start throwing items late at night? You helped me realize I can suck it up for a few more late night weekends and avoid anything escalating out of hand.

Quote:
You think of her and treat her as if she were no more, and no less, than an elderly lady staying there for room/board. If you'll work at having that mindset toward her, I think you'll see a difference in your feelings.....and certainly in actions.

This was very helpful in getting me to focus and relax with our routine interactions and move towards detatching. The struggle comes when my W and I interaction s envolve the girls. Last weekend I told the W I was taking the girls to the Maple Festival. She could join us if she wanted to but if not she could stay home. She joined us and it was a pleasant day. We went out to lunch and the W thanked me twice afterwards (hasn't thanked me for going out to eat in months even before A). I feel these situations allow her to cake eat.



Quote:
Calling her out whenever she shows disrespect toward you, is better than just ignoring it. As long as she stops doing the action, then continue calling her out. If she doesn't paathens to you calling her out........then what?......but, I've learned that to a lot H's with NGS......that means to walk away. In some instances that is the best thing to do.
Calling her out has worked every time. I don't think she used to it might it might change if she does. Yesterday we were leaving D5 spring concert and she started bit*hing about where I chose to park. She gave me a smartass "yeah, great place to park, we are getting out real quick!", I stearnly and calmly said " I didn't say we'd get out quickly, I said I picked this spot because it would be easier to get the truck out of (a parking lot full of vehicles). "Oh yeah" she said, "it worked great". I looked over and firmly said " are you done?!" She said with a smirk "nope!" But that was it, she dropped the topic.


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natash

sorry you are here, I'm sure it's quite painful and stressful.

I'm not sure how you are DBIng, b/c you say it's not working, but what is it that you are doing differently than before the A?

What were you like when she fell in love with you?

As for the HANDGUN

that would freak me out big time. You are angry, you bought a gun. Those are facts.

A man in my Divorcecare group last year stabbed his wife and shot himself in the head.

Left 2 orphan kids. He snapped. We will never know what was said in the 90 seconds of his returning the kids after an outing.

So for me, it's a big alarm going off. DING DING DING


You are spinning. You are obsessing and we all have been there. It's like nothing else gets your attention. Try to be present for your kids and not gearing up for a war, so much.

What are your GAL activities (and btw, you can tell her SOME of them b/c you are having FUN), and then be a bit mysterious about the rest.

Right now i feel like you are doing a tit for tat game and really really wanting to "win/be right" but that's not the way to approach this. Take in and process what the DB books say.

Do you want to be "right" or do you want to be happy?

Also, I do NOT condone your wife having an A. I DO NOT!

but your post and story sounds to me like you have some issues of your own to work on.

What are your 180s?


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M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
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X marries OW 5/2016

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Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

I'm not sure how you are DBIng, b/c you say it's not working, but what is it that you are doing differently than before the A?


I was doing much more house chores but have backed off. I no longer initiate conversation, physical touches, listen more intently to the W while using eye contact. I don't persue or ask where my w has been or what her plans are. I go out out a few nights of the week to a gym I joined or to hang out with friends and don't tell her where I'm going only that I'll be back in a few hours and to call me if something comes up with the kids.

Quote:
What were you like when she fell in love with you?


I am the same laid back hard working adrenaline loving honest guy. My shape and appearance has changed little. However, I did not take my relationship for granted at the beginning like I now realize I have recently

Quote:
As for the HANDGUN

that would freak me out big time. You are angry, you bought a gun. Those are facts.

A man in my Divorcecare group last year stabbed his wife and shot himself in the head.

Left 2 orphan kids. He snapped. We will never know what was said in the 90 seconds of his returning the kids after an outing.

So for me, it's a big alarm going off. DING DING DING


I can see your point. I didn't mention before that my wife and I have wanted a handgun or two for quite a few years. We were going to get our conceal carry permit but recently the state law changed so one is not needed. I said there is no excuse now to not carry and be able to protect my family vs god forbid get in a situation where I wish I had protection and didn't. Also, most of the times im in the woods my buddies carry and I don't have to worry about bears. When my wife and I are hiking or camping alone I knew it would be a little peace of mind. Last fall I shot quite a bit with friends and decided come tax return time, I'd make the investment. So that is what I did,just happened to fall during these difficult times. I am level headed and don't ever get angry enough to misuse a firearm but I have removed the safe and gun from the property.


Quote:
You are spinning. You are obsessing and we all have been there. It's like nothing else gets your attention. Try to be present for your kids and not gearing up for a war, so much.

You are right on. I feel like I'm reading and reading and trying to do the right thing. It is constantly on my mind and I'm not seeing the progress I had hoped for and am struggling. I know I can do better and I need to step back each day and tell myself I don't know or have control over the situation and the outcome...I only have control over me. Once I improve my gal it Should be easier. Right now I need more activities. I offered two to help two Friends over the weekend help anytime they need it. One is building a house, the other has started a brewery/pub. Another month will be easier with fishing and golfing around the corner.

Quote:
What are your 180s?

I need work here/ideas. I just head out when the kids are in bed without telling her my plans. I am on my cell much more and send friends more messages than in the past (typically never use to text or message). Problem is the MIL and wife picked up on it and I backed off once the W accused me of cheating. I felt like it might be sending the wrong message. I do jump at any chance to be with my girls, whether it is watching a movie or spending time off from school with them. I do stand up to the W whenever she says something inaccurate or talks harsh to the girls when in the past I'd let it slide and not rock the boat. The only other little thing I can think of is I am more decisive. In the past the W could say what do you want for dinner? I'd say, I don't care, whatever you'd like to cook (thinking I'm being easy going and let her pick but looking back she would even say at times "why can't you just decide?" Now I look her in the eyes and give her a clear answer each and every time.


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Another quick update. My W went out with a "friend" on Friday night for dinner and never came home. I told myself I would not ask any questions, don't need to know details and act like I'm moving on. But then I had a setback. My D7 woke up at 7 am and frantically searched the house for Mom. She then came to me and said "Dad, Mom didn't come home! Her cars gone and she hasn't answered her phone! I called Grammie (MIL) and she texted Mom but didn't text hear back." MIL said maybe she was getting her nails done. I got angry inside and said my MIL better not start making excuses to my girls and went into protection mode. When the phone finally rang half an hour later I told d7 not to answer it and I did ( looking back I should have let her answer it). I said in a stearn voice to my w " you want to tell me where you are and when you'll be here? She flipped the table and said " yeah, like you tell me where your going and when you'll be back!" I said I let you know I'm going in town and I always come back the same night. I have two girls asking questions and I want to know what I'm going to tell them." I almost said heartbroken girls because they were nervous and upset but I remember reading not to bring the kids into this or make the S feel guilty. It was tough because I wanted to show my girls I am there to protect them but didn't want to persue the W. I did reassure the girls that mom would be back. Then a thought crossed my mind, what if she was in trouble? I'd feel terrible. I never called her to know where she was or what she was up to. I acted like I didn't care. Later she told me it wasn't planned for her to stay overnight (not that I believe that). I think she is out with OM and know she'll say she was out with a friend but regardless, I feel powerless in this situation and would take any advice on what to say or do and what not to say or do.


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Natash, I can't believe your wife did that with little girls at home waiting for her, not to mention her husband. That's crazy. I don't blame you for the setback.

I'm not sure I'm a position to offer any advice because I've been through this with my husband and I've made mistakes. Maybe my best advice is to assure you that this wild euphoric stay-out-all-night stage can't last forever. Even if your wife is out with OM eventually reality will hit when she and OM face problems in their relationship or when she starts to see how it's affecting her children. Maybe right now she's blinded by love for OM which is just so totally unfair to you and your kids, but if you want to potentially reconcile or keep your family together it seems you're doing the right things and by being patient you should eventually see your wife becoming more rational in weeks or months. I think the DB book says affairs last around six months.

That is so traumatizing for you to go through this. I feel so bad for you and your kids. I wish sometimes our society wasn't so open and it wouldn't be so easy for people to do these things. Sometimes I think Saudi Arabia has the right idea except the same stuff somehow happens there too...I guess humans have the same behavior everywhere and the same capacity for wrecklessness and selfishness regardless of nationality or geography.

I hope you hang in there and just remember this behavior won't last forever.

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Quote:
MIL said maybe she was getting her nails done. I got angry inside and said my MIL better not start making excuses to my girls and went into protection mode


My DIL was a WW. As a grandmother of little girls, I can see your MIL trying to assure her grandchildren........more than covering for the WW.

Quote:
When the phone finally rang half an hour later I told d7 not to answer it and I did ( looking back I should have let her answer it). I said in a stearn voice to my w " you want to tell me where you are and when you'll be here? She flipped the table and said " yeah, like you tell me where your going and when you'll be back!" I said I let you know I'm going in town and I always come back the same night.


You gave her a very good answer when she flipped the table. I'm so sorry your children are nervous and feel anxious b/c their mother is not where her responsibility lies. The innocent suffer the sins of the parent.

Apparently D7 is use to seeing mommy first thing when she wakes up. Maybe in the future, you could set your alarm clock to get up before your youngest child wakes. Seeing her daddy up and in charge of running the home, so to speak, may help steady her fears if mommy is missing. This is not rescuing your WW, but rather, your child.

((hugs))


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Quote:

Maybe my best advice is to assure you that this wild euphoric stay-out-all-night stage can't last forever. Even if your wife is out with OM eventually reality will hit when she and OM face problems in their relationship or when she starts to see how it's affecting her children. Maybe right now she's blinded by love for OM which is just so totally unfair to you and your kids, but if you want to potentially reconcile or keep your family together it seems you're doing the right things and by being patient you should eventually see your wife becoming more rational in weeks or months.


Thank you Nicole for the kind words and your advice on the time frame this situation will last was helpful to me this morning. After reading that, I said shes right. This wont last forever. I can do this.


Quote:
My DIL was a WW. As a grandmother of little girls, I can see your MIL trying to assure her grandchildren........more than covering for the WW


Thank you for the reply Sandi. This thought did cross my mind and I do believe that is what she was probably doing as I highly doubt she knew what (or who) her daughter was actually doing. My MIL loves my girls and they love her back. I'd say the each mean the world to each other and my MIL had been texting me often wondering how things are going and hoping for improvements. I did have to tell her the last time, about a month ago, that I wish I could share my thoughts and opinions with her but my W was already upset (that the MIL was reaching out to me and not her own daughter..and I dont blame my W for being upset about this.

On a different note, I've been following some other threads and when I read this one (below) I felt like every word you spoke to rminer and his situation is exactly like my situation. I never sit still and am always working on the house or something (until BD). My wife has told me that she feels like she is not appreciated at all, she feels like the family maid, and I thought she hadn't contributed to the success of our family.

My question is, when I read this and feel so much like you are speaking about my situation should I follow the advice you give to someone else in a same situation as myself?



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As you've previously explained, you spent every spare minute working on something. If your W has felt neglected, not heard, not validated, and you didn't show her attentivness, then I think this her way of trying to tell you. A woman is like a flower. If you don't tend to her emotional needs, she'll turn ugly and die. I think you focused on working too much, and you started tuning out the things you considered as unimportant. One of worst habits a H can do is not listening to his W. It is so rude! Whether or not it's important to you......it was to her, and she is trying to connect to her H. If he won't listen to unimportant things, why would she want to share that which is intimate and personal with him? Having a H who doesn't hear her, destroys a woman's sense of value! It's the beginning of making her feel unappreciated, unimportant, and unloved by her H.

So, hopefully, you are improving in those areas^^^^^^^^. She wants you to show her she is still that special girl that has your heart. She wants you to do some action that simply says you care.........like cleaning up the dog mess. Listen, I think she wants and needs just the two of you to share in some activity that is not classified as "working". You know......like a few decades ago before all the kids came along?

I am not defending a woman who turns to another man while she is still M. But, I have to ask why you think she turned to someone else? She wants you to not only validate her, but praise her when she does something well. Notice her when she looks extra pretty. Share yourself with her. I think when a couple stops having pillow talk, they lose something very special in their relationship. I think her actions have been horrible toward you, but I also think she has tried to get your attention. I hope you are hearing me loud and clear.


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Quote:


My question is, when I read this and feel so much like you are speaking about my situation should I follow the advice you give to someone else in a same situation as myself?


Previously I had asked Sandi about her reply and havent heard anything back. I realize she is very active and extremely helpful to many people here so I'm sure she misses a post or two. Then I got thinking, I am sure that is another veteran or two reading that may be able to share their opinion and thoughts with me on this and my WW.

Should I be giving praise or compliments while detatching and distancing myself? At first I thought no but maybe I should be? It's like when I realized I was not supposed to be super dad and started having my wife do more chores (ones she always did in the past until 4 months ago at the start of the A). She told me it was nice at first that I was going 180 mph doing everything and she didn't have to do a thing. Since then I've backed off. She can alternate with me giving the girls showers, no need for me to do it three times a week every week so she can txt OM. Same with prepping the girls lunches. I no longer do all the laundry and stopped taking care of the damn litter box. However, I have not backed off making meals because it has been something I've wanted to learn and ease into for a period of time. Now that time is here and even though it helps the w out, I feel it helps me more. It shows both of us im capable of cooking and I am learning something new along the way.


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N.....I would not be giving her praise or compliments. She is in an A with another man....imo it would make you look weak.

I remember very early on in my witch I told my W she looked nice.....she gave me an non emotional thank you but my compliment met nothing to her as she wanted nothing to do with me.

Be nice, polite, etc. but keep it all business. Show her strength.

My 10 cents.


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Quote:


I remember very early on in my witch I told my W she looked nice.....she gave me an non emotional thank you but my compliment met nothing to her as she wanted nothing to do with me.

Be nice, polite, etc. but keep it all business. Show her strength.

My 10 cents.


Makes good sense. Now that you say that, before I had confirmed OM I said one day after I had seen my wife had done her hair, make up, push up bra,etc I said "wow, you look stunning!" and she looked over and scowled at me. I said did you just scowl at me because you aren't used to me giving you a compliment or did you scowl because you didn't like what I said?" She just shrugged her shoulders and walked away.


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It’s a tough spot....I have 2 young daughters as well. I felt the same thing you are feeling early on. Fast forward 9 months and they are both doing great. Be a rock for them, never let them see you struggle emotionally (keep that behind the curtain) and if they see you uneffected it will do wonders for them. If you follow sandis rules will gain confidence and clarity.

I was lucky in many respects that my W moved out 3 weeks after BD which I pushed her on doing. She brought it up and I told her to make it happen ASAP. I have no regrets. I did not want an in house separation and while I did not save my MR my W and I are cordial to one another and I believe we will have a great co parenting relationship.

Best of luck and hang in there!


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Natash, I don't really know the right answer to your question but my own opinion would be to do what works best. If you complimented your wife once and she seemed happy and responsive then maybe compliments will help. If she scowled at you and shrugged her shoulders and walked away, however, then that sounds like a sign that compliments wouldn't be appropriate for now.

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Thank you J9 and Nicole for the postive words.

I come today for some advice. We have a dance recital this weekend. I always take my girls out to eat after the final day of the recital as a way to celebrate their hard work. This year I feel that they are old enough to appreciate some flowers after the first show. The problem I have is my W is in one of the acts this year with D7. I know buying gifts, flowers,etc for brownie points is bad but when I got thinking about it, I could see myself giving the girls flowers and my wife thinking "yep, thats my typical old husband not thinking about everyone. He gives the girls flowers and doesn't even acknowledge my participation let alone all the sacrafice I took over the dance season getting out early from work twice a week to attend the girls practices." If I were to buy her flowers (from the girls and I), I think she might see it as a nice gesture (because I stopped buying her flowers. She told me to save the money or buy something else that lasts, flowers just die and are a waste of money. I never bought little gifts here or there as I never use to go into stores shopping. She did all the shopping and then over the years would say "its the little things. You dont need to spend much on something for a nice little surprise). I guess it would be a 180 for me but I struggle doing a nice gesture for her considering her actions towards myself and my family.


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I would do it.....and to clarify you are not doing it to score brownie points your doing it because your a man of character and it's the right thing to do. IMO

Just remember to have no expectations.

I went out and bought my W a Christmas present but it was from my girls. She got me nothing but for me it was the right thing to do and I will do it for her birthday as well. When my girls get older and they are able to buy presents for themselves it will be a different story. But now they are innocent and don't really understand everything.


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I would like to echo J9's comments. I took my daughter out and let her pick something for W's birthday even though she told me not to get her anything. Why? It was the right thing to do. My daughter got the experience of picking out something that she was excited to give to her mom, and W was happy when I told her D6 picked it out all by herself. I would get your wife a little token gift of some kind and have your daughters give it to her after you give them the flowers.


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Sorry for getting a little behind in your thread. I want to back up to something I think I failed to address previously.


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I am interested in knowing how you see conflict in the two. What do you see as "tough love" and "letting her go"?


I feel tough love would be to stand up to my wife and be firm with her. Like in the past she could roll her eyes at me over something simple that irritated her. Now I tell her "there is no need to roll your eyes at me, I find it disrespectful". Telling her that I won't share her or a bedroom with her also seems like it would fall into this category. Anytime there was a time she needed to feel the consequences of her decisions would be TL too. I guess I feel if I'm showing her feelings even if it is from tough love that it contradicts the let it go theory. I wouldn't show the little old lady for a roommate tough love. Maybe I'm misunderstanding or missing something?


Tough love is making right decisions based on your integrity, values, standards, belief system, etc........rather than based on emotions. They are not decisions for wrongful means. Tough love is requiring the other person to be responsible for their actions.

Let me address the last part of your statement above regarding the female boarder scenario. If your boarder was being disrespectful to you......yes, you would definitely apply a tough stance. In reality, a boarder would be told to leave, but we won't go there, at the moment. My point is, you are to be respected by all who live under your roof.

Letting her go does not contradict tough love. In time, you'll get it, so don't become discouraged. It might help if you googled it, to see it outside of your MR. I use the term, tough love, mostly with H's who have the NGS.......b/c it seems so foreign to their usual mindset. It is tough for the nice guy to stand up for himself. It's tough for him to show any type of hard line action. At best, his usual way is passive-aggressive behavior........which stinks! I can't say it strong enough......IT STINKS! A wayward W hates passivity and sees it as weakness. "Letting her go" does not mean you let your respect go, too. If she interacts with you, she has to show respect. If she lives under your roof, she has to show respect. She doesn't have to like you, but she has to show you respect.

Letting her go means you stop pursuing her. You don't try to have an affectionate relationship while she is in an affair and/or being disrespectful. You stop trying to control her personal time and activities. It means you stop showing her your emotions and sharing your feelings with her. It means you don't compromise with her wayward behavior. You don't do sappy things to get on her good side. You don't over explain yourself to her. You stop trying to impress her.

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I can not stand the constant cellphone use/messaging but haven't thought of a way to discuss it without coming across as controlling


Would it bother you if a boarder was on spending their time on their cell phone, or would you ignore it?

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So I am biting my teeth and bearing it knowing I can't control her and she will do disrespectful and hurtful things while wayward.


I have a couple of thoughts about this ^^^^^^^. First, you've never controlled her. I mean, she was cheating on you.....and you M her anyway, so that should have shown you her capabilities. You just want to control her. Second, if you are biting your teeth and bearing it b/c you "can't" control her........then you are giving her too much control over your head space. Don't you think that's a little crazy? Let it go. However, don't accept disrespect directed at you.......from her, or anyone else. Don't mix your thinking and believe that requiring respectful treatment is the same thing as trying to control her. Know what I mean?



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You think of her and treat her as if she were no more, and no less, than an elderly lady staying there for room/board. If you'll work at having that mindset toward her, I think you'll see a difference in your feelings.....and certainly in actions.


This was very helpful in getting me to focus and relax with our routine interactions and move towards detatching. The struggle comes when my W and I interaction s envolve the girls. Last weekend I told the W I was taking the girls to the Maple Festival. She could join us if she wanted to but if not she could stay home. She joined us and it was a pleasant day. We went out to lunch and the W thanked me twice afterwards (hasn't thanked me for going out to eat in months even before A). I feel these situations allow her to cake eat.
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Well, sure it let's her cake eat, but I think there is a bigger problem in what you've just said. You want to control the entire situation, and if's obvious to me....I think it is to her, as well. You don't want to stand up to her, and yet, you don't want her to eat cake..........but you invited her along on for family activity. So what did you expect? She enjoyed it and thanked you. Did that make you feel she just got a serving of cake? Your thinking is your biggest problem at the moment. If she's going to live in the home with you.......she is going to get a certain amount of cake, it's unavoidable to an extent. In this particular instance, you invited her! It's as if you threw her party, but didn't want her to have a good time. So, since she did enjoy it, you start thinking it is cake eating.

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Calling her out has worked every time. I don't think she used to it might it might change if she does. Yesterday we were leaving D5 spring concert and she started bit*hing about where I chose to park. She gave me a smartass "yeah, great place to park, we are getting out real quick!", I stearnly and calmly said " I didn't say we'd get out quickly, I said I picked this spot because it would be easier to get the truck out of (a parking lot full of vehicles). "Oh yeah" she said, "it worked great". I looked over and firmly said " are you done?!" She said with a smirk "nope!" But that was it, she dropped the topic.


Look, Natash, that ^^^^^^^ wasn't calling her out. That was you explaining your parking choices. Plus, she ended it on a disrespectful note. I doubt she even suspected that you were trying to refer to her disrespectfulness. When you asked if she was done......it only challenged her.

Just a tip for the future........don't ask her questions when you are addressing her disrespect. You ask her nothing like you did in that instance. Tell her she is being disrespectful. Then, if she continues to speak disrespectfully.....be prepared to carry through with an action. Do you see how she ended it on her terms......and not b/c you were telling her to stop the b'tching?

***************************************************

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On a different note, I've been following some other threads and when I read this one (below) I felt like every word you spoke to rminer and his situation is exactly like my situation. I never sit still and am always working on the house or something (until BD). My wife has told me that she feels like she is not appreciated at all, she feels like the family maid, and I thought she hadn't contributed to the success of our family.

My question is, when I read this and feel so much like you are speaking about my situation should I follow the advice you give to someone else in a same situation as myself?


Rminer worked every spare moment after he would leave his job, but he wasn't doing the work his W had left undone......or whatever was considered her work in the house. His W did the usual housework, homeschooled the kids, etc. Unless I have forgotten, he was not working on housework chores.......like cooking, laundry, cleaning, etc. He was working hard to finish building their house. I felt he had become negligent toward the emotional needs of his W. It's easy to do when a man is working himself into an early grave! He can lose sight of the current emotional needs of his family, b/c he's so busy providing the practical needs.

How can your W feel like a maid when her H is doing everything so she doesn't have to lift a finger? I can't remember at the moment if your W is employed. If she is, then help her when the two of you get home, just don't do everything. Going from one extreme to the other is not the answer. If she is not employed, then don't leave your job and go home to do hers. Unless she has physical problems or some "real" excuse......a woman will not respect or appreciate a H who does everything just so she can sit around and do nothing.......or b/c she complains and doesn't enjoy doing it herself. If that is the case, then she is either lazy or has a sense of entitlement......or both.

Rminer's W was texting OM, but she wasn't staying out all night (unless I have forgotten, or getting sitches confused). At first, I didn't catch how he had tuned her out whenever she tried to connect with him. He wasn't listening unless it was regarding important practical matters. He saw small talk as her babbling about some nonsense. He developed such a bad habit of not listening, that now he struggles to really listen to her. So, if you are guilty of the same thing......start listening from your heart.

I don't feel impressed to give you the exact advice I gave Rminer. Maybe b/c I see you being too much of a "pleaser", and you wanting to pursue her. Your W is staying out all night without her H's knowledge, and while she has small children at home. However, if you think I'm wrong, we can talk more about it.

If you plan to continue with the mental attitude of interacting with your WW as if she was a boarder in your home.........you will have to be careful the way you word compliments and how you direct the praises. I would suggest you start very, very small and rather general or impersonal. In other words, you could compliment her on cooking a good meal. You would do that for a boarder (if she cooked something), right? You can show appreciation without going overboard, can't you? If not......then it is likely to have a reverse effect with a WW.

For example, you told how she responded when you gave her a big complement about her stunning looks. Now I ask you.......why on earth would any female react to receiving that kind of complement? A WW hearing it from her H can react just exactly how you described. When her heart is that closed off and cold to her H.......she won't appreciate his complements, like a normal W. She sees him as kissing up. And if that's the case with your W, it's best to just leave it alone for now.

I think a father giving his daughters flowers is very special. But you know, they'll still expect dinner, too.........right? smile

It gets complicated when you mix in the WW, trying to decide what to do about her. Did you say she is dancing in the recital, also? If it were me, I'd just wait about starting a new tradition at this particular time. My question to you is.......why flowers now? You said you thought the girls were old enough to appreciate flowers, but seriously......isn't this more about your need to show your W something (either positive or negative)? Coming up with this idea, leads me to highly suspect you have ulterior motives. I just don't think you can do it without expectations.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Sandi you bring happiness to my night. It is refreshing hearing from you the way it is and what I am doing or not doing correctly.
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Letting her go means you stop pursuing her. You don't try to have an affectionate relationship while she is in an affair and/or being disrespectful. You stop trying to control her personal time and activities. It means you stop showing her your emotions and sharing your feelings with her. It means you don't compromise with her wayward behavior. You don't do sappy things to get on her good side. You don't over explain yourself to her. You stop trying to impress her.

I am consistently following all of these "rules". I no longer share my thoughts or feelings, no small talk, I don't ask her plans or when shell be back. I can't remember when the last time I touched her was. I traditionally over explain at times but that has stopped. My dialog to her is short and to the point. I am seeing things about my w that I don't like and in the past excepted as w being w. It makes it easier to see her move along the journey she must take.

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Would it bother you if a boarder was on spending their time on their cell phone, or would you ignore it?

So there is two answers to this question. It would not bother me from a boarder and I've accepted that my wife has spent and will continue to spend a lot of time (in comparison to the time in the evening that family is available) on the cell. The problem I had was it was at the diner table and I am trying to raise my girls to have respect for rules and be polite. Cellphone use does not belong at the family dinner table (it is not polite) or setting good example.

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So I am biting my teeth and bearing it knowing I can't control her and she will do disrespectful and hurtful things while wayward.

I have a couple of thoughts about this ^^^^^^^. First, you've never controlled her. I mean, she was cheating on you.....and you M her anyway, so that should have shown you her capabilities. You just want to control her. Second, if you are biting your teeth and bearing it b/c you "can't" control her........then you are giving her too much control over your head space. Don't you think that's a little crazy? Let it go.
As far as I know, the first time she cheated was after the wedding but I get your point. I have at times let her get into my head too often. I do understand you about any show of disrespect is not acceptable.



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You think of her and treat her as if she were no more, and no less, than an elderly lady staying there for room/board. If you'll work at having that mindset toward her, I think you'll see a difference in your feelings.....and certainly in actions.


This was very helpful in getting me to focus and relax with our routine interactions and move towards detatching. The struggle comes when my W and I interaction s envolve the girls. Last weekend I told the W I was taking the girls to the Maple Festival. She could join us if she wanted to but if not she could stay home. She joined us and it was a pleasant day. We went out to lunch and the W thanked me twice afterwards (hasn't thanked me for going out to eat in months even before A). I feel these situations allow her to cake eat.
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Well, sure it let's her cake eat, but I think there is a bigger problem in what you've just said. You want to control the entire situation, and if's obvious to me....I think it is to her, as well. You don't want to stand up to her, and yet, you don't want her to eat cake..........but you invited her along on for family activity. So what did you expect? She enjoyed it and thanked you. Did that make you feel she just got a serving of cake? Your thinking is your biggest problem at the moment. If she's going to live in the home with you.......she is going to get a certain amount of cake, it's unavoidable to an extent. In this particular instance, you invited her! It's as if you threw her party, but didn't want her to have a good time. So, since she did enjoy it, you start thinking it is cake eating.

Thank you for clarifying. I invited her and had no expectations. Enjoying and saying thank you was not seen at that moment as having cake but later on when I was thinking back I was frustrated that she gets the best of both worlds. Hearing you say living together there will be some cake eating and no way around it makes it easier to accept.

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Calling her out has worked every time. I don't think she used to it might it might change if she does. Yesterday we were leaving D5 spring concert and she started bit*hing about where I chose to park. She gave me a smartass "yeah, great place to park, we are getting out real quick!", I stearnly and calmly said " I didn't say we'd get out quickly, I said I picked this spot because it would be easier to get the truck out of (a parking lot full of vehicles). "Oh yeah" she said, "it worked great". I looked over and firmly said " are you done?!" She said with a smirk "nope!" But that was it, she dropped the topic.


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Look, Natash, that ^^^^^^^ wasn't calling her out. That was you explaining your parking choices. Plus, she ended it on a disrespectful note. I doubt she even suspected that you were trying to refer to her disrespectfulness. When you asked if she was done......it only challenged her.

Just a tip for the future........don't ask her questions when you are addressing her disrespect. You ask her nothing like you did in that instance. Tell her she is being disrespectful. Then, if she continues to speak disrespectfully.....be prepared to carry through with an action. Do you see how she ended it on her terms......and not b/c you were telling her to stop the b'tching?

I love the tip, don't give her a chance to keep it going. I'll tell her she is being disrespectful period. If it continues she can walk home.

***************************************************

Quote:
On a different note, I've been following some other threads and when I read this one (below) I felt like every word you spoke to rminer and his situation is exactly like my situation. I never sit still and am always working on the house or something (until BD). My wife has told me that she feels like she is not appreciated at all, she feels like the family maid, and I thought she hadn't contributed to the success of our family.

My question is, when I read this and feel so much like you are speaking about my situation should I follow the advice you give to someone else in a same situation as myself?


Quote:
Rminer worked every spare moment after he would leave his job, but he wasn't doing the work his W had left undone......or whatever was considered her work in the house. His W did the usual housework, homeschooled the kids, etc. Unless I have forgotten, he was not working on housework chores.......like cooking, laundry, cleaning, etc. He was working hard to finish building their house. I felt he had become negligent toward the emotional needs of his W. It's easy to do when a man is working himself into an early grave! He can lose sight of the current emotional needs of his family, b/c he's so busy providing the practical needs.

How can your W feel like a maid when her H is doing everything so she doesn't have to lift a finger? I can't remember at the moment if your W is employed. If she is, then help her when the two of you get home, just don't do everything. Going from one extreme to the other is not the answer. If she is not employed, then don't leave your job and go home to do hers. Unless she has physical problems or some "real" excuse......a woman will not respect or appreciate a H who does everything just so she can sit around and do nothing.......or b/c she complains and doesn't enjoy doing it herself. If that is the case, then she is either lazy or has a sense of entitlement......or both.

Rminer's W was texting OM, but she wasn't staying out all night (unless I have forgotten, or getting sitches confused). At first, I didn't catch how he had tuned her out whenever she tried to connect with him. He wasn't listening unless it was regarding important practical matters. He saw small talk as her babbling about some nonsense. He developed such a bad habit of not listening, that now he struggles to really listen to her. So, if you are guilty of the same thing......start listening from your heart.

I don't feel impressed to give you the exact advice I gave Rminer. Maybe b/c I see you being too much of a "pleaser", and you wanting to pursue her. Your W is staying out all night without her H's knowledge, and while she has small children at home. However, if you think I'm wrong, we can talk more about it.

If you plan to continue with the mental attitude of interacting with your WW as if she was a boarder in your home.........you will have to be careful the way you word compliments and how you direct the praises. I would suggest you start very, very small and rather general or impersonal. In other words, you could compliment her on cooking a good meal. You would do that for a boarder (if she cooked something), right? You can show appreciation without going overboard, can't you? If not......then it is likely to have a reverse effect with a WW.

For example, you told how she responded when you gave her a big complement about her stunning looks. Now I ask you.......why on earth would any female react to receiving that kind of complement? A WW hearing it from her H can react just exactly how you described. When her heart is that closed off and cold to her H.......she won't appreciate his complements, like a normal W. She sees him as kissing up. And if that's the case with your W, it's best to just leave it alone for now.

After your input and two others, I won't be complimenting the w on anything but cooking or other kind gestures but nothing based on her looks. The W works full time and had never been lazy but there are times lately she has become lazy. The maid comment was from post BD when I did the dishes,trash, bottles and cleaning of the home but nothing else inside for daily chores (but was always busy working on the home or the yard)

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I think a father giving his daughters flowers is very special. But you know, they'll still expect dinner, too.........right? smile

It gets complicated when you mix in the WW, trying to decide what to do about her. Did you say she is dancing in the recital, also? If it were me, I'd just wait about starting a new tradition at this particular time. My question to you is.......why flowers now? You said you thought the girls were old enough to appreciate flowers, but seriously......isn't this more about your need to show your W something (either positive or negative)? Coming up with this idea, leads me to highly suspect you have ulterior motives. I just don't think you can do it without expectations.


I had a conversation with a friend last year about how it was nice seeing I started a tradition by taking the girls out after recital weekend each year. She said she still remembers how nice it was to get flowers and go out to eat each year when she danced as a girl. I bought flowers for the girls for the first time on Valentine's day and they loved them. I know at the recital they will be seeing other dancers get flowers so considering those two things I was going to add that (along with dinner out) this year. Something special from dad. The W is dancing in one act this year with d7. I do not have ulterior motives and am glad I've come here for advice on this now. I want to make sure I'm not sending the wrong message or taking a step in the wrong direction. ATM I am thinking I will have the girls pick something out or get a gift card to a store the w likes to shop at and have the girls give it to the w when we get home as a thank you.


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I am consistently following all of these "rules". I no longer share my thoughts or feelings, no small talk, I don't ask her plans or when shell be back. I can't remember when the last time I touched her was. I traditionally over explain at times but that has stopped. My dialog to her is short and to the point. I am seeing things about my w that I don't like and in the past excepted as w being w. It makes it easier to see her move along the journey she must take.


Just a couple of words of caution about going too silent. The children need to see their parents interact, especially at the dinner table. You should not go overboard and not say anything to your W. Many H's have problems balancing talking too much or not talking at all. The rule was designed for those men who want to talk, talk, talk, and talk more. They want to talk b/c they feel it draws the WW/MR closer.....but it doesn't. You can save small talk for the dinner table, or talk with the girls about their activities, but don't go cold silent to your W. It would make you look as if you were mad.....or just being a jerk. See what I mean? You have to stay balanced with this stuff.


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Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote:
I am consistently following all of these "rules". I no longer share my thoughts or feelings, no small talk, I don't ask her plans or when shell be back. I can't remember when the last time I touched her was. I traditionally over explain at times but that has stopped. My dialog to her is short and to the point. I am seeing things about my w that I don't like and in the past excepted as w being w. It makes it easier to see her move along the journey she must take.


Just a couple of words of caution about going too silent. The children need to see their parents interact, especially at the dinner table. You should not go overboard and not say anything to your W. Many H's have problems balancing talking too much or not talking at all. The rule was designed for those men who want to talk, talk, talk, and talk more. They want to talk b/c they feel it draws the WW/MR closer.....but it doesn't. You can save small talk for the dinner table, or talk with the girls about their activities, but don't go cold silent to your W. It would make you look as if you were mad.....or just being a jerk. See what I mean? You have to stay balanced with this stuff.





I guess I didn't explain that well enough. The W and I do interact and talk about the kids and their activities or our activities together, especially at the dinner table. I look forward to each night asking them about their day. The few times I have been upset and stone silent the W picked up on it and said "what did I do wrong for you to be jerk" or "what's with the attitude" so after those I realized I need to do a better job at fake being happy.

This weekend started out tough for me but I don't feel like getting into that right now. However, my girls had their recital and did amazing jobs. D5 in K has moved up and danced with 2nd graders this year. D7 in 2nd grade moved up and danced with 3rd graders. I was looking forward to see how they did and was proud to see both of them leading their groups. I saw no mistakes in the 7 acts they did, it was great. I gave them each a dozen roses and the W got them stuffed animals. I let them pick a restaurant to go to tonight where they both held hands and presented Mom with a gift card to TJMaxx as a thank you for all of her help with dance this year. The W was glad and said "thank you, that wad nice" and that is where the good vibes end.

At one point tonight while eating, the W told me that my MIL was thinking about going out to eat with us but said she'd take the girls out next weekend when she "said something about having them for the weekend". Like clock work, every other weekend the W will make plans. Last weekend the girls were upset and nervous so if Grammy has a sleepover the w wouldnt have to face that guilt. I have plans for all day Saturday and maybe Saturday night to be hanging out with a buddy and going to look at buying a new motorcycle. Also, I realized the W moved out her sleeping bags, hiking boots back packs and snow shoes. I could see her wanting gear to do a hike his summer but snowshoes aren't needed for almost another year. This tells me she's not planning to stay at mom and dads when they are at camp and then come back. It looks like she's moving out her belongings that aren't used often. I know I'm analyzing but so want to say something to her. I also saw a college online course BA program outline on the night stand and Im struggling with that. She could borrow $50k and the L said I'd be on the hook for half the cost. It's so tempting to bring the moved items, college paper and I'm not staying in an open marriage/she has done nothing to work on the MR up in a conversation. Each day that passes is closer to the day she moves out but I'm feeling more and more used and abused and I respect myself more than that. I am more valuable and deserve better. I want to be with someone that wants me. I can file and secure my financial status but garauntee any chance at recon reduced to almost nothing. What if4 months out my W realizes what she has done and wants to fix things? I need to do what's right for myself and my two daughters. I love my wife but question is doing DB worth it if this is truly who she is/what she is capable of? I have lost almost all respect for her. I know bringing anything up would lead to a conversation about the R so I haven't done that but just felt like running my thoughts by others tonight.

On a good note, I got invited tonight by a buddy I rarely get to see to join him on a once in a lifetime 6 day canoe trip next Month right around my birthday and I think I'm going to join him. I wish I had more than two weeks vacation because I'm also planning to go to Yellowstone this summer to visit another buddy who has been there for 18 years wondering when I'm going to come visit! Couple that with our pool, camping trips, and a few day trips I'm planning with my girls, I will be having fun this summer,!


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Originally Posted By: Natash
Each day that passes is closer to the day she moves out but I'm feeling more and more used and abused and I respect myself more than that. I am more valuable and deserve better. I want to be with someone that wants me. I can file and secure my financial status but garauntee any chance at recon reduced to almost nothing.


Your W asking you what she did wrong, why are you acting like a jerk is fuching hilarious to me. That's how wacked out they are right now.

You are more valuable and do deserve better! Protect yourself financially, if that means filing for D then file for D. The biggest misconception on this board is that if you stand up for yourself and demand respect and file for D that eliminates any chance of recon. I argue to the contrary. Most of these sitches have to go through D before there is a chance at recon. The funny thing is you will have moved on by then.

Stay strong my friend!

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Hey Natash, how has your week gone? Any plans for the weekend?


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Thanks for checking in Sandi. It has gone smooth other than D5 getting the Noro Virus, 10 of 13 kids in her class got it the same day as well as 12 of 14 in another Kindergarten class!. Of course the W came to me in a panic to help clean up the vomit. I've always done that task whenever one of us is sick but the whole time I'm cleaning I was thinking oh how the W will love this when she's on her own. She had been friendly a handful of times, temp checking I think. Last night the girls and I wanted to go for a walk around our new neighborhood now that it is getting a little warmer out and light later on. The W joined us. I haven't heard her made up story of what she's doing this weekend yet but tomorrow I am going to help a buddy work on his home in the morning. In the afternoon I'm going with a buddy out of state to buy my birthday present to myself...a new motorcycle. The W doesn't know but I figured it would be best to keep it a secret until she moves out. I have to do it this weekend because it is a holdover and the savings are to good to pass up. Some might think it is a bad idea but I've always loved riding, especially dual sport bikes. Ive had two street bikes since I've been with my w but decided to sell the last one when D5 was born...no way to take two kids to daycare. I owned it so sold it and put the money into a CD. After BD, I read to take up an old hobby. So I decided it was a good time to get back on two wheels. I rode with a buddy last year, it was the first time on a bike in five years


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Of course the W came to me in a panic to help clean up the vomit. I've always done that task whenever one of us is sick but the whole time I'm cleaning I was thinking oh how the W will love this when she's on her own.


The whole time you were cleaning? tired Why do you think things will change, if you continue the same dynamics? That's why you've always been the one to clean up the vomit.

Let her panic! The world does not stop turning. Stop rescuing her.

Quote:
She had been friendly a handful of times, temp checking I think.


Oh, I guarantee it. The WW does nothing nice with or to the H, that isn't for her benefit somehow, some way. Selfishness is 100% of her motivation.

Quote:
The W doesn't know but I figured it would be best to keep it a secret until she moves out


shocked. Why? Don't give her details about where you are going, what you will be doing, who it is with, or when you'll get back. But why do you feel you have to keep GAL a secret? Was this a habit in previous times, when you figured the W would not be happy about you bike riding.......or anything else that you might actually enjoying doing without her? Did you have to make a decision to stop doing some of your old hobbies or either hide it from the W.......else you might have to suffer her wrath? It's okay, you can be honest here. Look, she's moving out anyway........what's the worse that could happen if she knows? Wouldn't it feel kind of good to do what you want, and not feel like you had to hide it from her? Tell me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that be close to growing a pair?

If she springs at the last minute that she has plans this weekend, what do you plan to say? Don't you dare back out of your GAL just b/c she makes plans. And she will expect you to stay home and babysit. So, what's your game plan? Stand up to her like a man, and tell her you've made plans for the entire weekend, so she'll have to get a babysitter. And, don't start stuttering around when she starts firing questions, wanting the low down on what you plan. She doesn't get to know. How's that? grin She has fired you as her H, so she forfeits the right to know all your personal business.

First bike ride in 5 years, huh? That's how old your D is, right? Just saying.......

Do you know why a lot of W's lose attraction for their H? B/c he stopped being the guy she fell in love with. He hunched down when she would nag him, guilt him, bellyache, or manipulate him.......instead of standing up to her and putting her in her place. He tried to tell himself .........whatever, in order to live with her. But she lost respect for him as a man. Now, I may be off base in this case.........but I bet not too far.

Every W will test her H at some point in their MR, to see if he's strong enough to put her in her place. (And, I'm not suggesting abusive actions). If she proves she is stronger than him, she loses respect for him. Women need their men to be stronger, b/c that is something that is born in them. That's why God gave you fellows a pair of b@lls. So, make good use of them.

Get on that bike and find that guy again! This time around, don't lose him. wink

Have a great time!


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Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote:
Of course the W came to me in a panic to help clean up the vomit. I've always done that task whenever one of us is sick but the whole time I'm cleaning I was thinking oh how the W will love this when she's on her own.


The whole time you were cleaning? tired Why do you think things will change, if you continue the same dynamics? That's why you've always been the one to clean up the vomit.

Let her panic! The world does not stop turning. Stop rescuing her.

No not the whole time. She started cleaning up D5 and I had to have D7 leave the room and find something to do before she tossed her cookies (she has a weak stomach for vomit). So I was thinking about my sick D5 and not it as rescuing the W.

Quote:
She had been friendly a handful of times, temp checking I think.


Oh, I guarantee it. The WW does nothing nice with or to the H, that isn't for her benefit somehow, some way. Selfishness is 100% of her motivation.

Quote:
The W doesn't know but I figured it would be best to keep it a secret until she moves out


Quote:
shocked. Why? Don't give her details about where you are going, what you will be doing, who it is with, or when you'll get back. But why do you feel you have to keep GAL a secret? Was this a habit in previous times, when you figured the W would not be happy about you bike riding.......or anything else that you might actually enjoying doing without her? Did you have to make a decision to stop doing some of your old hobbies or either hide it from the W.......else you might have to suffer her wrath? It's okay, you can be honest here. Look, she's moving out anyway........what's the worse that could happen if she knows? Wouldn't it feel kind of good to do what you want, and not feel like you had to hide it from her? Tell me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that be close to growing a pair?
I don't feel like GAL needs to be a secret but have to a point because most of the things I have done have been with a close Bbuddy. Him and his wife were in our wedding. His wife was my wife's second best friend for a while. The W bragged to his W about who she was texting. My friends wife didn't agree with what my w was doing so my wife has stopped talking with her and unfriended her on FB. Months ago out of the blue my W told me to stop hanging out with "my friends and btw you vcan have Courtney and Al!" I thought it was strange but now believe she's written them off and if she knows I'm hanging out with the same people every time it will (because some ways it is) a weak GAL plan. The improving weather will increase what I can do and who I can do it with. At that point I wouldn't mind sharing names here or there if I feel the need. I guess it was my way to make GAL mysterious for a bit. I did not have to give up activities or hide any before. There were times she'd tell me to go out more often but I remember when I went fishing a few weekends in a row a comment was made to me about her home with the kids so I made the choice to back off and stick around home until the girls were older. We were always upfront and honest about activities. Often times, if I wanted to do or buy something I did. I would run it by the Way so there were no surprises to her. I wanted a seadoo in 2014 so I went and bought one. Motorcycles, same way. My W will tell you in that way I'm selfish and it's all about me (not the case). Two weeks ago she said "you're driving a $50k pickup and I'm driving a 2010 suv that is falling apart ( not the case, we keep our vehicles in top shape. She was just irritated it needed a sway bar replaced, a common failure). I then said "do you recall before we talked about buying snowmobiles I said we should buy you a new vehicle... and you chose not to? Her reply was that wouldn't make sense since we are now where we are. (surprising to me because this was back in the fall). I see it as I work hard for the money and spend money on my home and family and little on myself so every five years or so I buy a different toy to enjoy. This winter when I bought two new snowmobiles to get back into the sport (was into big time when I first met W in 20004 but it is expensive and I couldn't afford it after buying a home then having kids in daycare). I bought one for me one for the w. After discovery of the A I sold them both after only putting 15 miles on them. I had planned to sell the seadoo this spring (we now have a camper and pool so the seadoo only saw water twice last summer). So Im planning to use the seadoo funds to pay for the bike. So that sale won't be until next month and then I look forward to showing her I bought what I wanted. If I do it now I know she'll be like I can't believe you, taking out a loan when we are where we are. More importantly, I don't want to send the message it's ok to go borrow money. She made the comment recently about working on going debt free (usually that is something I'd say). If i say the seadoo funds will pay for it. She'll say half that is mine (even tho ugh not one penny came from her to pay for it) I guess long story short I feel it would create a conversation I want to avoid and if she finds out once no longer living here there is not s darn thing she can say about it....wow! After all this typing and explaining I see exactly what you are saying. I need to just show up with it and start earning my pair back!

Quote:
If she springs at the last minute that she has plans this weekend, what do you plan to say? Don't you dare back out of your GAL just b/c she makes plans. And she will expect you to stay home and babysit. So, what's your game plan? Stand up to her like a man, and tell her you've made plans for the entire weekend, so she'll have to get a babysitter. And, don't start stuttering around when she starts firing questions, wanting the low down on what you plan. She doesn't get to know. How's that? grin She has fired you as her H, so she forfeits the right to know all your personal business.
yes ma'am, I'm not the babysitter this weekend and I like that, she doesn't get to know.
Quote:
First bike ride in 5 years, huh? That's how old your D is, right? Just saying.......
I missed what you are getting at

Quote:
Do you know why a lot of W's lose attraction for their H? B/c he stopped being the guy she fell in love with. He hunched down when she would nag him, guilt him, bellyache, or manipulate him.......instead of standing up to her and putting her in her place. He tried to tell himself .........whatever, in order to live with her. But she lost respect for him as a man. Now, I may be off base in this case.........but I bet not too far.

Every W will test her H at some point in their MR, to see if he's strong enough to put her in her place. (And, I'm not suggesting abusive actions). If she proves she is stronger than him, she loses respect for him. Women need their men to be stronger, b/c that is something that is born in them. That's why God gave you fellows a pair of b@lls. So, make good use of them.

Get on that bike and find that guy again! This time around, don't lose him. wink

Have a great time!

Not too far off base, she lost respect for me a few years back and I didn't do enough about it. I thank you for your guidance and clear instructions.

Oh, sh*t, my plans may be up in the air. As I finish typing D7 just vomited in bed. Looks like just when we thought she escaped the virus it got her!
















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So I was thinking about my sick D5 and not it as rescuing the W.


I knew it.....with out a shadow of doubt, I knew you were going to come back and say you did b/c of your D5! That is what men with the NGS do.

Quote:
Oh, sh*t, my plans may be up in the air. As I finish typing D7 just vomited in bed. Looks like just when we thought she escaped the virus it got her!


No, your W can keep D5 while you keep your mysterious plans.

I mean, there's no better time like the current time for her to learn how to clean up vomit. Don't let her guilt you out of your trip. Mothers stay home and keep care of their sick children every day. Don't rescue her.......and don't say it's for D5.

BTW, the "mystery" is your W not knowing the details surrounding your GAL.


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Originally Posted By: sandi2
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So I was thinking about my sick D5 and not it as rescuing the W.


I knew it.....with out a shadow of doubt, I knew you were going to come back and say you did b/c of your D5! That is what men with the NGS do.


I have to say this reaction surprised me. Would it change your thoughts if I have always done this? Since my girls were newborns and got sick, my wife immediately attended to them (picked them up, cleaned them up, etc) and I cleaned up the mess left behind while she was tending to the child. Nothing has changed (it was not like I decided to clean it up to be nice, I just see it as something that has to get done). I can see after reading what I wrote, it may sound like the typical NG but I am working on eliminating the NGS and want to make sure there was not a better way to handle that situation.


Quote:

I mean, there's no better time like the current time for her to learn how to clean up vomit. Don't let her guilt you out of your trip. Mothers stay home and keep care of their sick children every day. Don't rescue her.......and don't say it's for D5.

W does know how to clean up vomit but I get your point. It was tough walking out the door leaving my D7 behind who was still getting sick every so often but I did. I got to go see a friend that I have not seen for over a year and his brother that I have not seen for several years. After that I went and picked up my new bike. I got a missed call from home with a voicemail about half way through the trip. It was one of the Ds whispering something about when I'm coming home. I got home after diner and the girls and W were in the living room watching a movie. D5 and D7 started right in with questions. The girls wanted to know where I was so I had told them I was hanging out with two friends (mentioned their names because that would have been the next question). So the W then says "The girls called you but you never called back" I said yeah I got the phone from the truck and saw I had a missed call and voicemail. She says "Oh that's, didnt even have your phone with you...good thing I didnt need to get a hold of you! Its fine your out with your friends but I cant believe that you never called to show that you care about your sick daughter and see how she was doing!" I responded calmly "My phone was not in the truck the entire time and just because I did not call to check up on her does not mean that I did not think about how she was doing or care about her. To be continued...


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Originally Posted By: Natash
"Oh that's, didnt even have your phone with you...good thing I didnt need to get a hold of you! Its fine your out with your friends but I cant believe that you never called to show that you care about your sick daughter and see how she was doing!" I responded calmly "My phone was not in the truck the entire time and just because I did not call to check up on her does not mean that I did not think about how she was doing or care about her. To be continued...


Natash, not sure you should have responded like this. I'll let the experts chime in but I will give advice. Go back to the stickies on this forum and read the validation thread. Validating properly will usually be all you need to do. Validate with so much sugar that she is sticky (figuratively!) when you are finished validating. Your response as written above, sorry to say, still sounds like you have a solid case of NGS. Explaining yourself. No need to do that. Just validate with concise statements and move on.


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Originally Posted By: Steve85


Natash, not sure you should have responded like this. I'll let the experts chime in but I will give advice. Go back to the stickies on this forum and read the validation thread. Validating properly will usually be all you need to do. Validate with so much sugar that she is sticky (figuratively!) when you are finished validating. Your response as written above, sorry to say, still sounds like you have a solid case of NGS. Explaining yourself. No need to do that. Just validate with concise statements and move on.


Thank you Steve for pointing that out. I struggle over explaining things and as you can see even when I try to keep it short and to the point it shines through. I probably should have just said " I can understand why you would feel that way" and left it at that. I do need to improve my validation. I will set it as a goal. I set Sandi's rules as a goal and read them often, sometimes daily and it helped me stay focused and consistent. I'll have to do the same with validation.


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I have to say this reaction surprised me. Would it change your thoughts if I have always done this? Since my girls were newborns and got sick, my wife immediately attended to them (picked them up, cleaned them up, etc) and I cleaned up the mess left behind while she was tending to the child. Nothing has changed (it was not like I decided to clean it up to be nice, I just see it as something that has to get done). I can see after reading what I wrote, it may sound like the typical NG but I am working on eliminating the NGS and want to make sure there was not a better way to handle that situation.


Change my thoughts? You did not have to tell you've always been this way. I knew it. I know the dynamics in your MR.

I want to make something perfectly clear here. Caring for your children and doing what seems right......is not "nice". It is being a responsible parent. Have you read the book about NGS? The title of nice guy could be a little misleading, if you don't understand the psychology behind it. People who know you would say, "He is a nice guy". There is nothing wrong with being a nice person. But what I am referencing goes much deeper and causes a dynamic in MR's such as you are currently experiencing.

It's as if you have always been the primary parent (for lack of better way to describe it). Not only does your W depend on you to take care of the children during the night, when they are sick, making sure they have what they need and get to where they need to be.....she expects it. Traditionally, it was mothers who took care of the home and the needs of the children, got up during the night, etc. Some couples share or swap out in these areas, but I have observed IRL, and on the board, that in many families there will be a primary parent who steps up to these jobs more than the other parent. If the H has NGS....then more than likely, he is going to be that parent.

I am not saying there is anything wrong with the father doing all the things you do for your kids. I want you to see the dynamic in your MR. Would you say your W has a sense of entitlement? I mean, she obviously expects you to take care of these things. She seems blind to her own role in caring for her little girls. Your next paragraph is an example of how she plays the guilt card to manipulate you in continuing the old dynamic. The first time you pulled back just a little, she reacted very badly. She hit you where she knew would hurt the most, by saying you didn't care that your child was sick. I suspect the reason your D tried to call was due to her mother making statements like, "Your father should be here to take care of you". Whether or not she said anything to your D or put her up to calling you..........the action of your W was not concern for the child. It was concern for herself!


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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I have read the NGS and do have I'd say half of the characteristics but you know something? As I was reading I noticed many of the things mentioned fit my W...is there any thoughts or talk of NGS as Nice Girl Syndrome? My wife did the majority for my girls prior the BD (dance, bday parties, doc appts,etc). Up until then u wouldn't say she had a sense of entitlement, she saw it as being a mom. After BD I believe she feels and acts entitled because in her mind she deserves it for all her work that she has done over the years that was under appreciated.

Tonight turned out interesting. Got home from work and no one was around (wife had the day off with kids that are on vacation). I get a text a while later "kids are with me on a play date". I don't want to pursue but want to know what to do for supper (w spent $250 on groceries which included special items for a new meal plan she was doing for weight loss. I didn't want to cook a meal and have no one around to eat it so I responded with a text "will the girls be eating supper at home tonight" She said "no". Next text was out of the blue " I don't know if your card has been hacked but there is a $29.99 charge from Planet Fitness". Originally I thought, is she with her BFF and they are talking while the kids are playing? (Later confirmed as my girls told me they went to McDonald's play place with Ws BFF and her family) Did someone see me last night at the gym and it get back to the W or BFF? Why ask me now via text instead of in person? I was going to ignore it but my W does not have access to my credit card and last month I set it up for email statements. The charge was $10 for the first month and $19 for the second month, not $29.99 Great, has she been snooping? That would be worse than finding out about Divorce Busting ...I responded "what card and where did you see this?" She didn't answer the question but replied "did you get a membership?" I did. I'm a first time gym member and have been using the gym as an escape and something to do at nights when the girls are in bed. I responded "Yes. Will you tell me where you saw this because that is not the correct price and I need to look into it" She replied " do you think I'm stupid? I asked you a question and you replied with a question. Avoidance. For what? Who cares how or where I saw it? And you know how much something is when you sign up and pay for something. I don't really care but don't get why you are acting this way..." This is when I stopped in my tracks. It's a trap if I keep the conversation and text going. There is no way she saw the credit card statement because I opened and shreaded last months. This month was emailed. I left the house to chat with a friend and have a beer. I needed an ear to listen. I'm glad I did. We got a chuckle about her hypocracy, not to mention I answered her question but she never did mine. On the drive home I realized, she must have saw the $21.99 charge a few day ago on my checking account and must have assumed I used a debit card. The first two months were on a credit card but now it is directly withdrawn. She was just checking up on me and can't understand " why I'm acting this way" As much as I felt like saying Ditto, I think it is proof that I need to keep it up and step up the mysterious when I can. She didn't mention any of the above to me when I got home and has been friendly since.


Me:37 W:42
T:14 yrs M:10.5 yrs
D:7 D:5
BD: 1/6/18 OM Discovered: 1/29/18
WW moved out 5/12/18
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Quick update and venting, I'm struggling with W and the GAL plans. My W has made random comments about how I just leave without saying anything and goes on complaining about it. I thought about it and she has always told me ahead of time about her plans (even though they are vague and not 100 percent true). I know we have a communication issue so I thought maybe I should show some validation to her point and let her know my plans from time to time. Last weekend I got up early on Sunday morning and asked if she had plans as I walked by her still in bed. She said only to get groceries. So I responded "I'm going skiing for half the day." I met up with a long time friend I used to ski with years ago and have not seen for years. We went skiing and had a great time, I hadn't been on skiis in years but was still able to ski White Nitro.. the steepest double black diamond in the east. It felt great! When I got back, WW had several questions about skiing. I casually answered with short simple answers.

This week had been decent and until I slipped up. I got out of work on time and went to the gym. When I got home, the WW snapped at me "you work late?" I said yeah and then asked how D7 was doing. WW then snapped again "you work late?" I had my D on my mind and said yeah and then I went to the gym. She acted irritated. Fast forward to today. Today was the day I thought she would be moving out. I had plans to go buy a new golf driver,go to the driving range, go golfing, and then hang out at a friends. In the morning I ran errands in town like I now often do on the weekend( I don't tell ww my plans but if the girls ask where I'm going, I name one of the places for them). So lunch time rolls around and WW says " do you have plans today?" I said yeah I'm going golfing why? She got all pissed off and said " never mind!" And walked away as I asked her the why part. I went back inside and said. " Don't walk away from me when I'm talking to you, especially when I'm answering a question you asked me" So she said well I wanted to go to fair for a little bit. I said well go, I can make my plans flexible. I realize know I shouldn't have said this. She said "no, nevermind. I won't have much time there now. I'm the built in babysitter! You go every Saturday morning wherever and never say a thing. I said "I'm a grown man and don't have to answer to anyone. If I want to go in town to run errands I can and I do tell the girls where I'm going" She continues" You go to the gym after work and have free reign...I pick the kids up after work and i'm stuck with the kids all the time". I said " it doesn't have to be that way, if you have plans you could always get a babysitter." She said "oh ok, that's how it's going to be...ok! Then she said something again about how I left when D7 was puking and had diaherra and I never called home and was gone all day! World's greatest dad right there!" I calmly said " I had plans that day but at least I came home. I was home before bed time " she said " I've never left and not called home". I said "bullshit, you left one day to watch a friends boy for a few hours...and didn't come home until the next day. Another time you told your family you were going out to eat.. and never came home that night" she said "whatever" and shutup and I walked away. Now this is the part that agrevates me because I'm kicking myself now for the way I handled it. My buddy had to work and bail on our plans at the last hour, so I told my daughters I'd go to the driving range and then when I get back take them to mini golf. Around this tine knowing my plans are shot, my wife went and made plans to go out (without me knowing. I should have left earlier on my own. It's the every other weekend weekend so I'm assuming OM is involved). The girls come to me and say "let's go dad!"I said " I'll be back later. And they said Well mom's leaving to go out to eat with friends so we are coming with you" I walked back inside and W is on her way out. I said to the W "so is this where I should pitch a hissy fit, I'll be with the girls while you go out?" She said nothing.

I had a great afternoon with my girls. I bought them their first set of golf clubs and took them to the driving range. The gentlemen their game them their own pink cancer awareness ball. After hitting a bucket of balls, we went out to eat at a restaurant that over looks the river and enjoyed the awesome weather (best day weather wise this year).

Now we get to the tough part. The girls know mom left at 4 to go eat. They call her around 7:30 to ask when she is coming home.She told them in a little bit, she was just starting to eat. So I let them stay up later watching TV so they could see Mom when she gets home. At 8:45 I tell them ok, we have to go to bed. D7 start s to cry and says" Mom's not home, when will she be here. She keeps saying in a little bit. Can I call mom to say goodnight?" I said yes. They got her voicemail so they called my MIl. Almost instantly the W calls back and talks with both of the girls who are in tears saying "when will you be home". She told them she would be home before they woke up in the morning. As I'm tucking the girls in the WW calls and tries to give me an earful about how I let the girls stay up extra late and overtired and it made them feel this way and call her crying. Again mentions that I've left for a whole day. I was just listening, saying very little but did tell her ,"the girls are sad because they want to know when you'll be home. I don't make them feel this way, it's how they feel and when I leave, I'm home for bed time" She responded " oh ok, make me out to be the bad parent" I said Ok and hung up. Now I'm second guessing wether I should have answered her call to my cell and say what I did or if it would have been better off letting it go to voicemail.

I'm no longer affraid to rock the boat but am looking for some insight in how to handle these flare-ups in the future. What I did or said that was good? What I said or did that could have been handled differently?

A big hurdle for me right now is I've been invited to go on a once in a lifetime 110 mile 6 day canoe trip next weekend. I haven't mentioned it to my W because if she did move out this weekend, I decided as much as I want and need to go to get a break and enjoy friends I decided i wanted to be the Rock for my girls. If she moved out and then dad was gone for a week (I've never left them more than a couple days) my D7 anxiety would have kicked in and caused her to be deeply sad and confused. I will be there for them whenever possible. Since W hasn't moved, I'm going to go. Do I tell her now? Tell her last minute? Ask her if she's all set for the week? I want to come off strong and to the point as I'm getting tired of her game.


Me:37 W:42
T:14 yrs M:10.5 yrs
D:7 D:5
BD: 1/6/18 OM Discovered: 1/29/18
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When in this type of tit for tat battle, it's pretty much of a no win situation for the LBS, from what I have seen. I think it might be to your advantage to tell your W about the trip. If you act as if you are being secretive and wait to the last minute, she'll sure enough try to scr@w you. What do you have to lose, by being honest and discussing it in plenty of time? Having grandparents as backup sitters would be my call, too.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Thank you Sandi for the input. I have already got the support of my parents to help out if needed. I'm going to tell my WW either tonight or tomorrow (she snuck home at 1:50am last night and slept on the couch like a teenager...quitly closed the doors and everything.She didn't fool me if that was her plan.Now the "poor thing" is tired and already in bed). It might have to wait until tomorrow morning.


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Originally Posted By: Natash
Quick update and venting, I'm struggling with W and the GAL plans. My W has made random comments about how I just leave without saying anything and goes on complaining about it. I thought about it and she has always told me ahead of time about her plans (even though they are vague and not 100 percent true). I know we have a communication issue so I thought maybe I should show some validation to her point and let her know my plans from time to time.


You have to strike a balance with this. When you're still living together and especially if you have young kids, then it's not fair to her for you to just disappear with no notice, or come home late, etc. If you make plans then give her some advanced notice. You don't have to give her a lot of specifics, but at least tell her when you have plans and make sure it works OK for her too. Don't use her like a baby-sitter because that will just make her resent you more.

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Last weekend I got up early on Sunday morning and asked if she had plans as I walked by her still in bed. She said only to get groceries. So I responded "I'm going skiing for half the day."


That just sounds like a recipe for more resentment!


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This week had been decent and until I slipped up. I got out of work on time and went to the gym. When I got home, the WW snapped at me "you work late?" I said yeah and then asked how D7 was doing. WW then snapped again "you work late?" I had my D on my mind and said yeah and then I went to the gym. She acted irritated.


And there's that resentment I mentioned.

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So lunch time rolls around and WW says " do you have plans today?" I said yeah I'm going golfing why? She got all pissed off and said " never mind!"


You do understand why she's angry don't you? I mean she has every right to be!

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I won't have much time there now. I'm the built in babysitter! You go every Saturday morning wherever and never say a thing.


I'm replying as a I read, so when I wrote the above about you making her feel like a baby-sitter I had not read this part yet. So yeah, based on your actions her reaction was pretty predictable.

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I said "I'm a grown man and don't have to answer to anyone. If I want to go in town to run errands I can and I do tell the girls where I'm going"


If you want to run errands then why not take the girls? Why does GAL mean dump the kids at home on your W to you? Give your W some alone time. She might actually appreciate you for that.

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She continues" You go to the gym after work and have free reign...I pick the kids up after work and i'm stuck with the kids all the time". I said " it doesn't have to be that way, if you have plans you could always get a babysitter."


[slaps forehead]

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Then she said something again about how I left when D7 was puking and had diaherra and I never called home and was gone all day! World's greatest dad right there!" I calmly said " I had plans that day but at least I came home. I was home before bed time


Did you know D7 was sick before you skipped out? Be there for your kids.

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I'm no longer affraid to rock the boat but am looking for some insight in how to handle these flare-ups in the future. What I did or said that was good? What I said or did that could have been handled differently?


I don't think you've handled any of it well. I think you misunderstand DB'ing, GAL'ing and you definitely don't understand validation. I would suggest you step back and read DB/ DR again and ALL of the links in Cadet's first post to you, but especially the threads on validation. Also look at Sandi's rules several times a day until you understand the gist of them.

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Since W hasn't moved, I'm going to go. Do I tell her now? Tell her last minute? Ask her if she's all set for the week? I want to come off strong and to the point as I'm getting tired of her game.


If you're smart you'll cancel this trip ASAP. If you want to disappear for a week then that is something you should talk to your W about, at least a month in advance (even if the two of you end up separating). Even if the two of you are not acting as husband and wife anymore you ARE coparents. You both have parenting responsibilities on a daily basis. GAL doesn't mean shirk your parenting duties.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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Originally Posted By: AnotherStander


You have to strike a balance with this. When you're still living together and especially if you have young kids, then it's not fair to her for you to just disappear with no notice, or come home late, etc. If you make plans then give her some advanced notice. You don't have to give her a lot of specifics, but at least tell her when you have plans and make sure it works OK for her too. Don't use her like a baby-sitter because that will just make her resent you more.


I understand this, makes sense but I am confused and will elaborate as I continue the responses.

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Last weekend I got up early on Sunday morning and asked if she had plans as I walked by her still in bed. She said only to get groceries. So I responded "I'm going skiing for half the day."


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That just sounds like a recipe for more resentment!


I always used to ask my W if she was ok with plans and or at minimum give her adequate notice on when, where,who is was with, and how long id be someplace in the rare event I went out with out W prior to BD. As part of keeping GAL mysterious and a 180, I stopped volunteering any info and only answered her questions. Now I'm wondering if it has been more hurtful than helpful and it's not like I can tell her I misunderstood some DBing advice.

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This week had been decent and until I slipped up. I got out of work on time and went to the gym. When I got home, the WW snapped at me "you work late?" I said yeah and then asked how D7 was doing. WW then snapped again "you work late?" I had my D on my mind and said yeah and then I went to the gym. She acted irritated.



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You do understand why she's angry don't you? I mean she has every right to be!

I do to a point. I told her after her response my plans could be flexible and she didn't care. She wanted to go to an event but never mentioned it to me and that is suppose to be ok but I'm supposed to continue telling her all of my plans like I always did before BD? I'm confused because I read Sandi's rules often and listen to advice Sandi gives me. I can see how I should not be doing something that would increase resentment. Any past resentment can't be from these actions because I never acted this way before but as you pointed out I can see how new resentment could be created.


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If you want to run errands then why not take the girls? Why does GAL mean dump the kids at home on your W to you? Give your W some alone time. She might actually appreciate you for that.


I will do this if I get the opportunity. In the past I would take one or both girls, and have once recently. Inside the home, I give as much space to my W as I can. When I leave I make sure the girls have had breakfast and are dressed for the day. The W and girls are usually watching morning cartoons at this time when I leave. Sadly, I knew I was giving her space and time without me around but I never recognized it would be a good time to take them with me to give her space and time alone.

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Did you know D7 was sick before you skipped out? Be there for your kids.

This one hurts. I was up with D7 every half hour from 10 until 4 through out the night when she was sick. She hadn't been sick for 3 hours since getting up but as I was saying bye she got sick...so yes I knew. I struggled with this and if you look back you'll see I was planning to cancel. I have always been there for my kids until that day. I was told not to cancel my plans so I followed the advice I was given and didn't. Now, like I said earlier, I am confused. I know my W did not like what I did.

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I don't think you've handled any of it well. I think you misunderstand DB'ing, GAL'ing and you definitely don't understand validation. I would suggest you step back and read DB/ DR again and ALL of the links in Cadet's first post to you, but especially the threads on validation. Also look at Sandi's rules several times a day until you understand the gist of them.


Thank you for your thoughts and recommendations. I thought I've been doing well with the rules but have said to myself that I need to work on validation.

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If you're smart you'll cancel this trip ASAP. If you want to disappear for a week then that is something you should talk to your W about, at least a month in advance (even if the two of you end up separating). Even if the two of you are not acting as husband and wife anymore you ARE coparents. You both have parenting responsibilities on a daily basis. GAL doesn't mean shirk your parenting duties.



I did talk with my Wife this morning. I told her I was recently in invited to go on a trip for a week but before I could commit I needed to make sure she was ok caring for the girls without me for the week. She said "yeah, that's fine". It was almost too easy. The only question she asked was "is it the full week?" and I said yeah Sunday until Friday. I am wondering now if she is planning to move out this weekend or next weekend when I'm gone and has not said anything to me (I don't bring the move out up as I leave that up to her to talk about (I will not hold her back, she is free to stay or go, the decision is hers). The other possibility is that I find after she goes out for long periods of time (presumably with OM) the following day she is nicer and in a better almost friendly mood.

I will reread Cadets advice and make a goal to validate daily, several times if possible.


Me:37 W:42
T:14 yrs M:10.5 yrs
D:7 D:5
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I've been thinking (about points AS brought up) over the night and have come to the conclusion that I have put my own wall up towards my wife due to recent resentment created over this situation. It has caused me to act in none genuine ways. During this time there have been times that my gut tells me this doesn't feel right but I've then said well I've read that often times with a WS you have to go against logical thinking. Not to mention I m working on eliminating my NGS. My concern is that over the past 4 weeks my W will look back and say "what an *ss he has been at times, only thinking about himself like I said" and further justify her decisions are right. I need to stop analyzing everything and relating it to DBing and be the guy I want too be... someone only a fool would leave.

Would it be weak or wrong to tell my wife "Due to the current situation I have struggled at times and this has caused some of my actions and decisions recently to not be genuine"?

I don't want to get into details and rehash the past or create a R talk but would use going to the gym as an example. I could let her know ahead of time before going. Like I've been told in the past, no need to keep it a secret. I think I need to take a break from reading this forum daily and enjoy my trip. Not only enjoy the GAL, meeting new people on the trip but also use the time do reflect on what has been working and what hasn't. I need to come out genuine and focused and hope it's not too late.


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Hi Natash, I think what you're suggesting would be helpful. I don't have time to write more now but if it helps to clear your conscience and seems appropriate for your situation then you know better than anyone here. The worst you can do is try this approach and if it doesn't help then you can try something else.

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You do understand why she's angry don't you? I mean she has every right to be!


I do to a point. I told her after her response my plans could be flexible and she didn't care. She wanted to go to an event but never mentioned it to me and that is suppose to be ok but I'm supposed to continue telling her all of my plans like I always did before BD? I'm confused because I read Sandi's rules often and listen to advice Sandi gives me. I can see how I should not be doing something that would increase resentment. Any past resentment can't be from these actions because I never acted this way before but as you pointed out I can see how new resentment could be created.


The statement in bold caused me to go back and read every post I wrote on your thread. I don't think I gave you any advice to give you the idea to intentionally cause more resentment in the MR. In fact, you were the one wanting to keep some activity a secret and I told you not to do it. I explained that you did not have to give precise details about GAL.......but interact as if she was the elderly lady living there for room & board. Politely communicate what she needs to know about your GAL. You don't have to be rude about it.

It's been my experience to see H's with NGS really struggle to find balance in his quest to appear more self confident, in charge, standing up to his W, etc. From what I could tell in your recent posts, this is true for you. You have difficulty with your "delivery" about GAL. Perhaps it is b/c you are trying not to tell her much. IDK the tone of voice you use, but in reading what you've said.......it could come across as a bit rude to her. I've also told you when a couple falls into a tit-for-tat situation there is no win-win solution. The resentment only gets worse. Someone has to break that "pay-back" theme. Know what I mean? You have resented her going out every other Sarurday, so when you do inform her of your plans......I suspect some attitude might be showing through. I also suspect, and have cautioned you about you planning GAL in order to prevent her from going out. That is controlling behavior, and it is not helping the situation. If both of you happen to have plans at the same time, then a babysitter is required.

What you don't want to do is swing too far out in one direction, decide it's not working and swing way out the other direction. Find the middle.

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Would it be weak or wrong to tell my wife "Due to the current situation I have struggled at times and this has caused some of my actions and decisions recently to not be genuine"?


Yes, it would sound like an excuse to her. And, saying this right after telling her about your trip........sounds as if you are trying to butter her up. She hasn't responded, except to ask if the trip would be all week, right? So, you see how this would look to say the above quote now.

This is an example of what I mean by you swinging from one extreme to the other. You read some post of mine and think you have to be rude to be tough. I have never told you to be rude to your W. I've not suggested you act like an a$$, have I? Then you read Another Stander's posts, and you think he is telling you the opposite of what I've said, so you go swinging to what feels more comfortable to you.........which is soft, nice-guy ways. That wasn't what Another Stander was suggesting. At least, I didn't read it that way.

Find balance, Natash.


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Continuing from my previous post.........

I see that your W did agree to your trip, and she didn't get b'tchy,which is good. Let this be the breaking the tit-for-tat behavior pattern, okay? Try to leave on good terms.

I think a week apart may be a break for both of you. By that, I don't mean to have any expectations.


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Quote:

You do understand why she's angry don't you? I mean she has every right to be!


I do to a point. I told her after her response my plans could be flexible and she didn't care. She wanted to go to an event but never mentioned it to me and that is suppose to be ok but I'm supposed to continue telling her all of my plans like I always did before BD? I'm confused because I read Sandi's rules often and listen to advice Sandi gives me. I can see how I should not be doing something that would increase resentment. Any past resentment can't be from these actions because I never acted this way before but as you pointed out I can see how new resentment could be created.[/quote]

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The statement in bold caused me to go back and read every post I wrote on your thread. I don't think I gave you any advice to give you the idea to intentionally cause more resentment in the MR.

You are correct and I don't think you gave me advice to intentionally cause resentment either. When I wrote the response to AS I felt like I should not have left/kept my plans the day my daughter was sick as looking back it might have caused resentment. Since reading his response and yours I think it clarified alot for me and I will explain as I go.

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In fact, you were the one wanting to keep some activity a secret and I told you not to do it. I explained that you did not have to give precise details about GAL.......but interact as if she was the elderly lady living there for room & board. Politely communicate what she needs to know about your GAL. You don't have to be rude about it.

Again, 100 percent correct. I really wish I had come home with the bike that night as I regret keeping it a secret because she has not moved out and ii should have addressed it at the time. Looking back, anytime we've had a debate or argument, it has been over something that lacked communications. When all said and done, I end up talking about it anyways so it would make sense just to be direct with my W and tell her I am going to A,b,c, etc and avoid possible future arguments/discussions.

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It's been my experience to see H's with NGS really struggle to find balance in his quest to appear more self confident, in charge, standing up to his W, etc. From what I could tell in your recent posts, this is true for you. You have difficulty with your "delivery" about GAL. Perhaps it is b/c you are trying not to tell her much.

Amazing! You nailed it. I realized today that the seceracy/mysterious part of GAL that I was attempting I struggled with and it made it feel fake and not genuine. I believe this is because my GAL part of my life is not where I know and hope it can be (it's just starting out) and also the resentment I have acquired probably does come through with a little attitude. And you are right, I struggle with not telling her too much. Ive told myself today to step back and relax. As I increase the quantity of genuine activities it will become easier and become natural to look calmly at my W and say "I have plans on this date to a,b,c, are you ok with watching the girls?" and at those times it won't be easy for whatever reason, I will stand up to my wife and tell her without any shame or guilt. I'll refer to my out of state trip again when buying the bike. As tough as it was too leave a sick child, getting out with a buddy for the day was fun. Then when I couple my Ws reaction with AS response it made me second guess. I believe the whole problem was my delivery. I did not announce the plans ahead of time and I announced a portion of the plan last minute and abruptly left. I bet if my wife knew I had money down on an item that I would miss out on if I did not make the purchase that day, she'd be more understanding and have less or no resentment. Then again, who knows, she's wayward but at least I could say when something unexpected pops up " you knew I had plans". One other thing I think has been happening is I have been trying to show my wfie I'm getting a life...this isn't about her and should be for me so when I stop caring about what she thinks and go have fun to have fun, it will be easier and feel more genuine as well. 14 years of having your wife as your best friend and doing everything together would cause this I suppose.


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IDK the tone of voice you use, but in reading what you've said.......it could come across as a bit rude to her.

My voice is quiet but I'm nervous and abrupt like mentioned above.
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I've also told you when a couple falls into a tit-for-tat situation there is no win-win solution. The resentment only gets worse. Someone has to break that "pay-back" theme. Know what I mean? You have resented her going out every other Sarurday, so when you do inform her of your plans......I suspect some attitude might be showing through. I also suspect, and have cautioned you about you planning GAL in order to prevent her from going out. That is controlling behavior, and it is not helping the situation. If both of you happen to have plans at the same time, then a babysitter is required.

Yes you have told me that and will work on an opportunity to break the tit for tat. I think this trip will help. I think the last time we were apart for a week was when we were dating 14 years ago. I am curious about the everyother weekend plans. If I remember right, you asked me what my plans were for one of those Saturdays. I agree and remember reading that trying to affect my Ws plans is controlling. However for my sanity, I'd love to have plans on those days to occupy my mind,time, and think about nothing but goodtimes. Is this a fair view to have?

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What you don't want to do is swing too far out in one direction, decide it's not working and swing way out the other direction. Find the middle.

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Would it be weak or wrong to tell my wife "Due to the current situation I have struggled at times and this has caused some of my actions and decisions recently to not be genuine"?


Yes, it would sound like an excuse to her. And, saying this right after telling her about your trip........sounds as if you are trying to butter her up. She hasn't responded, except to ask if the trip would be all week, right? So, you see how this would look to say the above quote now.

This is an example of what I mean by you swinging from one extreme to the other. You read some post of mine and think you have to be rude to be tough. I have never told you to be rude to your W. I've not suggested you act like an a$$, have I? Then you read Another Stander's posts, and you think he is telling you the opposite of what I've said, so you go swinging to what feels more comfortable to you.........which is soft, nice-guy ways. That wasn't what Another Stander was suggesting. At least, I didn't read it that way.

Find balance, Natash.

I do feel like this morning my head was focused in one direction and then snapped 180 degrees around so the swinging description is accurate and I will work on the balance.

So tonight I gave details of the trip to my wife. It is an annual trip some in the group have done the same week each year (due to snowmelt, ice out and water levels) for 35 years!. This year the water level is at a record high so it should be interesting! I am looking forward to it and
and remember back in the 7th grade planning out a similar trip on a nearby river as a project for school. At that time I dreamed about how much fun it would be to do it and now I'm getting to (The one thing I haven't addressed is I'm going to miss D7 music concert she has worked hard learning the songs...one is African! I'm planning on having it videotaped for me). I told my W tonight where I'm going, when I'm leaving and when I'll be back. She asked are you going with Ryan? I said yes and she told me she had some dinner plans with a friend next week that she needed to reschedule and wanted to do it for this Thursday. I said yeah that's fine, I was hoping to go to the gym that day but we can work around that.

Tomorrow is my birthday. My W texted me today "anything special you want for birthday meal?" I responded "let me think about it and get back to you" So then when I had a few minutes and was off the tower I had just climbed I texted her back "Are you referring to a meal you will make or purchase?" She responded "this is not a difficult question, I don't care" I thought "who is saying it's a difficult question...I'm not? My answer would depend on what was being offered so I responded "Ruby Tuesdays and the tone of the above text is not appreciated" She responded "it's a text and how you perceive it" I didn't respond and don't like going back and forth with texts when not necessary or worth it. Did I handle this correctly? I was want to make sure in the future if she gets sassy or disrespectful in texts I can put her in her place.

Thank you Nicole for your response and special thanks to AS and Sandi. I feel like I'm in a better mindset now.

P.S-Sandi im going to need your help, I bought my bike as a birthday gift to myself as you know. I regret my choice keeping it a secret as my wife has not moved out when she said she was going to and would like to run a scenario by you in an upcoming post (this one is long enough).









[/quote]


Me:37 W:42
T:14 yrs M:10.5 yrs
D:7 D:5
BD: 1/6/18 OM Discovered: 1/29/18
WW moved out 5/12/18
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Natash, you remind of myself in a lot of ways. I am also still just beginning my NGS "recovery" journey, so I can't offer all the wisdom of people like Sandi. But, I wanted to comment on your birthday meal text because it was sooo something I would have done. And by that I mean when you asked "Are you referring to a meal you will make or purchase?"

I have learned that if you want to get rid of NGS and have "male dominance" as Sandi calls it, you have to be decisive. For guys like us, when W asks a question--even as simple as 'what do you want to eat?'--for some reason our response is always another question. "IDK, what do you feel like?" "Do you think it's worth it to drive 10min farther to go to A over B?" Etc. The actual question doesn't matter, it could be anything. But it's always some question trying to get more info from them before making our decision because we are so worried about what they think.

In this case, it seems you were asking for clarification because you didn't want to pick the wrong thing if she had something different in mind. It's your birthday! If you wanted her to cook you a homemade meal, just say it clearly and confidently. If you wanted to go to Ruby Tuesdays, then say that. Who cares if she was thinking she would cook or vice versa. It seems like a trivial thing, but her response, "It's not a difficult question", shows her frustration with your lack of decisiveness. You need to be assertive and unafraid of what she might think about your decisions (as long as you are making good ones or they aren't overly important, such as the birthday meal).

I understand your confusion, though, for instance about your decision to go out when your D was sick. You tried to do that with assertiveness and now you regret it. The problem is that it probably wasn't a good decision. Not caring what your W thinks doesn't mean that you can just do anything you want and not worry about it. It's trusting yourself to be able to make good decisions and not worry if they fit her particular fancy. I know it's very unnatural right now; I am right there with you. We have given our wives all the power and it will be hard and awkward at times trying to take it back. We won't always do it right the first time and that's okay. But I think you are really trying and you will only get better once you figure out the ropes.

Also compounding the problem for us, I think, is the importance of taking these steps toward assertiveness with confidence and not nervous awkwardness. This is really hard! But if we try to stand up and are obviously scared and unsure about it, it isn't nearly as powerful and in some cases can even backfire. Rather than trying to instantly become this new strong person in all scenarios at all times, maybe focus on bigger, important areas first. Make sure you know your thoughts and boundaries on it, and what you need to say to confidently enforce it. Picking your battles is still important. I don't think you need to try to put it in your W's face every minute that you are now trying to take the power back. An example--your text about not appreciating her tone when she told you it wasn't a difficult question. I already said that I think it was your response that caused this one from her, but yes perhaps it still was a bit snappy and rude. Not being afraid to rock the boat is VERY important. But I don't think you need to rock it unnecessarily for every little thing like this. Like I said, pick your battles.

Again, I am no expert and I'm only sharing my thoughts from the same boat. If someone like Sandi or anyone else wants to correct me or back me up, great. I just know how hard it is trying to make these changes and there are lots of confusing things to try and navigate. Stay strong and keep practicing, I think you're doing great!


M: 26 W: 26
M: 1.5 T: 3
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W's affair began: 23 March 2018
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Yes you have told me that and will work on an opportunity to break the tit for tat. I think this trip will help. I think the last time we were apart for a week was when we were dating 14 years ago. I am curious about the everyother weekend plans. If I remember right, you asked me what my plans were for one of those Saturdays. I agree and remember reading that trying to affect my Ws plans is controlling. However for my sanity, I'd love to have plans on those days to occupy my mind,time, and think about nothing but goodtimes. Is this a fair view to have?


If you make plans on the Saturdays you know she'll have something........will it leave her stuck with the kids? See, this is what causes so much antagonisim. In her mind, she probably sees every other weekend as being "fair". However, it may be the only time she can see OM, or whatever, IDK. WW's don't usually care about fairness.......they care about what's best for them.

My point here is that if it falls on the weekend you know she'll have something planned, then you need to do one of two things. 1) GAL that includes the kids, or 2) be responsible for getting the babysitter. On "your free weekend", the same should apply for her.........and those are the weekends you don't have to take the kids. If you deliberately make GAL plans on her weekend, it appears as if you are trying to sabatosh her plans. Thus, her reason for having the resentment.

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When I wrote the response to AS I felt like I should not have left/kept my plans the day my daughter was sick as looking back it might have caused resentment. Since reading his response and yours I think it clarified alot for me and I will explain as I go.


Well, my point about the child being sick at her stomach, was that any mother worth her weight in salt should be able to handle it, without putting it all on the father.......the way she was doing, and has done, with you. You had nursed the child through the night, mopped up the vomit, etc. She appeared to be over it and sleeping peacefully. So, it wasn't as if you left her critically ill in the hands of an incompetent stranger! You are feeling guilty b/c AS asked if you left your sick child........and your W made you feel completely worthless. As a mother, I would not have thought anything bad toward my H leaving, after he had been up most the night with the child. If you had gone to work, it would have been the same thing.......but just b/c you took a break and did something for yourself......you're suppose to feel horrible? Sorry, I don't see anything wrong. Your W needs to act like a parent who can take care of a little girl's sick tummy without daddy being there around the clock. That's one of the issues in the MR, is that you've been the primary parent, while the mother did.......... whatever.

Quote:
I told my W tonight where I'm going, when I'm leaving and when I'll be back. She asked are you going with Ryan? I said yes and she told me she had some dinner plans with a friend next week that she needed to reschedule and wanted to do it for this Thursday.


Do you see anything noticeable in the quote above? The WW usually wants details about the H's GAL, but she doesn't offer up any of her own. You gave the day, the place, time of departure and time of arrival back home. But the one thing you left out......is the one thing a WW always wants to know. Who is going with you, or who will be there. All you know about her plans is that it's with some "friend". If you had told her a friend was going with you......how do you think she would have responded? It's just her sneaky way of making sure her position is still secure. Even if she is interested in being your W, she doesn't want you becoming interested in anyone else. Ironic, isn't it? It's a little thing called jealousy.

If it helps you to give her the dates and times, I think it's very considerate. I would not offer up extra details, without her digging for them. But then I never dreamed something so simple would give you such a personality or communication complex, either. It kind of defeats the purpose, if you ask me. IDK, guys like you just make me shake my head and wonder what you were like before M.

Quote:
Tomorrow is my birthday. My W texted me today "anything special you want for birthday meal?" I responded "let me think about it and get back to you" So then when I had a few minutes and was off the tower I had just climbed I texted her back "Are you referring to a meal you will make or purchase?" She responded "this is not a difficult question, I don't care" I thought "who is saying it's a difficult question...I'm not? My answer would depend on what was being offered so I responded "Ruby Tuesdays and the tone of the above text is not appreciated" She responded "it's a text and how you perceive it" I didn't respond and don't like going back and forth with texts when not necessary or worth it. Did I handle this correctly? I was want to make sure in the future if she gets sassy or disrespectful in texts I can put her in her place.


You are making these types of things too complicated, and that aggravates your W. You were not "saying" it was a difficult question. You acted as if it were. You could have just said, "Anything is fine with me"......or else, be precise about what you would like. Maybe it's just me, but it just seems as if you made it more complicated than necessary.
You need to relax about some of this stuff! You're going to have a heart attack.

Happy birthday today! whistle

Quote:
P.S-Sandi im going to need your help, I bought my bike as a birthday gift to myself as you know. I regret my choice keeping it a secret as my wife has not moved out when she said she was going to and would like to run a scenario by you in an upcoming post (this one is long enough).



Sure!


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote:


If you make plans on the Saturdays you know she'll have something........will it leave her stuck with the kids? See, this is what causes so much antagonisim. In her mind, she probably sees every other weekend as being "fair". However, it may be the only time she can see OM, or whatever, IDK. WW's don't usually care about fairness.......they care about what's best for them.

My point here is that if it falls on the weekend you know she'll have something planned, then you need to do one of two things. 1) GAL that includes the kids, or 2) be responsible for getting the babysitter. On "your free weekend", the same should apply for her.........and those are the weekends you don't have to take the kids. If you deliberately make GAL plans on her weekend, it appears as if you are trying to sabatosh her plans. Thus, her reason for having the resentment.

I believe OM has his daughter every other Saturday leaving the opposite available for my W. If I were to make plans on one of the Saturday's my wife would have plans I doubt she would get stuck with the kids as my MIL loves to watch them. However, take your advice and I will keep "her time" in mind and leave those weekends with GAL events with my girls. Then in the event that W and I both have plans, and I let her know ahead of time, we will be able to discuss it and arrange for a sitter.

[quote]When I wrote the response to AS I felt like I should not have left/kept my plans the day my daughter was sick as looking back it might have caused resentment. Since reading his response and yours I think it clarified alot for me and I will explain as I go.


Quote:
Well, my point about the child being sick at her stomach, was that any mother worth her weight in salt should be able to handle it, without putting it all on the father.......the way she was doing, and has done, with you. You had nursed the child through the night, mopped up the vomit, etc. She appeared to be over it and sleeping peacefully. So, it wasn't as if you left her critically ill in the hands of an incompetent stranger! You are feeling guilty b/c AS asked if you left your sick child........and your W made you feel completely worthless. As a mother, I would not have thought anything bad toward my H leaving, after he had been up most the night with the child. If you had gone to work, it would have been the same thing.......but just b/c you took a break and did something for yourself......you're suppose to feel horrible? Sorry, I don't see anything wrong. Your W needs to act like a parent who can take care of a little girl's sick tummy without daddy being there around the clock. That's one of the issues in the MR, is that you've been the primary parent, while the mother did.......... whatever.
I like the work analogy, that has happened in the past and never was an issue.

Quote:
I told my W tonight where I'm going, when I'm leaving and when I'll be back. She asked are you going with Ryan? I said yes and she told me she had some dinner plans with a friend next week that she needed to reschedule and wanted to do it for this Thursday.


Quote:
Do you see anything noticeable in the quote above? The WW usually wants details about the H's GAL, but she doesn't offer up any of her own. You gave the day, the place, time of departure and time of arrival back home. But the one thing you left out......is the one thing a WW always wants to know. Who is going with you, or who will be there. All you know about her plans is that it's with some "friend". If you had told her a friend was going with you......how do you think she would have responded? It's just her sneaky way of making sure her position is still secure. Even if she is interested in being your W, she doesn't want you becoming interested in anyone else. Ironic, isn't it? It's a little thing called jealousy.

Yes it is very ironic and I knew she would want the details. Unfortunately I had to give her more than I typically would like to in our current situation because it is the smart thing do (when going into such a remote area for multiple days). I think had I answered with "a friend". She would have said "who", and then when I repeated she would have probably got pissy and stormed off irritated.

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If it helps you to give her the dates and times, I think it's very considerate. I would not offer up extra details, without her digging for them. But then I never dreamed something so simple would give you such a personality or communication complex, either. It kind of defeats the purpose, if you ask me. IDK, guys like you just make me shake my head and wonder what you were like before M.
I wouldn't call it a personality complex, communication maybe but I am a very straight forward honest guy and I have a hard time doing something that feels fake or not genuine is all.It felt awkward to me at times but like I said as time goes on and activities and opportunities arrive, that will go away and become natural. This situation has been on my mind all the time and sometimes wears me down. I need to just step back and relax, enjoy life and forget about it for a minute or possibly a day. I overthink and analyze everything as it has been educated and formed into me through work. Every day the phone rings and a customer has a problem, how am I going to fix it? This is how I earn a living so when I am at home, I havent shut that mode off and am constantly trying to learn ways to help fix my own situation. But like I said, I think right now this trip will be the best thing for me. To get away with one good friend, a bunch of new people, and no electronic devices. I am perplexed about you wondering what i was like before marriage as I don't know if much has changed but maybe we can talk about that later.

Quote:
Tomorrow is my birthday. My W texted me today "anything special you want for birthday meal?" I responded "let me think about it and get back to you" So then when I had a few minutes and was off the tower I had just climbed I texted her back "Are you referring to a meal you will make or purchase?" She responded "this is not a difficult question, I don't care" I thought "who is saying it's a difficult question...I'm not? My answer would depend on what was being offered so I responded "Ruby Tuesdays and the tone of the above text is not appreciated" She responded "it's a text and how you perceive it" I didn't respond and don't like going back and forth with texts when not necessary or worth it. Did I handle this correctly? I was want to make sure in the future if she gets sassy or disrespectful in texts I can put her in her place.


Quote:
You are making these types of things too complicated, and that aggravates your W. You were not "saying" it was a difficult question. You acted as if it were. You could have just said, "Anything is fine with me"......or else, be precise about what you would like. Maybe it's just me, but it just seems as if you made it more complicated than necessary.
You need to relax about some of this stuff! You're going to have a heart attack.

Happy birthday today! whistle


The problem with that convo was I was putting my wifes thoughts first, wondering if she wanted to cook a meal or go out but I should have said who cares, its my birthday. A one word text response of Ruby Tuesdays would have avoided it all.

Thank you for the birthday wish!

Quote:
P.S-Sandi im going to need your help, I bought my bike as a birthday gift to myself as you know. I regret my choice keeping it a secret as my wife has not moved out when she said she was going to and would like to run a scenario by you in an upcoming post (this one is long enough).



Quote:
Sure!

Thank you.


And to 44, thank you for the post and pointers. I do agree with you we are alot alike and are in similar situations. I look forward to being here for each other!


Me:37 W:42
T:14 yrs M:10.5 yrs
D:7 D:5
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I have a quick question I'm looking for some advice on. Last night WW went out to eat from 4pm to 12:45am with "a friend who is getting done at work". This morning when preparing for the day, I was quiet and out of her way and didnt ask any questions. As I was getting to the fridge to get my lunch ready she hurried by me put her shoulder into me. I said "excuse you" without any attitude and D7 is in a nearby room and says "why are you guys acting like brothers and sisters all the time?" I did not know what to say to her. So I got thinking, should I be engaging with my WW when she returns from these outings,asking if she had a good time, etc? I haven't been as I saw it as a form of pursing (I don't mention anything, I act if nothing took place that I care about) but wondered if I am handling it the best way for me as well as my daughters?

On a different note, so looking forward to these next 7 days with new friends, wilderness, and good times but most of all a break from my WW, her actions, and lifestyle!


Me:37 W:42
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Natash,

Your W timeframe yesterday seems very suspicious. I would not start engaging with her more. You should detach more. IMO if you start to engage her more you are telling your W you are ok with her doing the things she is doing.

I think your W probably bumped into you because she felt guilty and wanted to see if your were upset about her being out the timeframe she was yesterday. She was testing you. Pull back, show her through actions that you are not ok with what she is doing.

GAL, get some new clothes. If you have lost weight, get clothes that fit, shirts that show off your chest and arms. Get a new haircut(change your hair style up). Get some new glasses if you wear them. Get some new smell good.

Your W is so enamored with what she is doing she don't see your improvements. But the more you change it up and detach she will start to take notice. Dont mention any of your changes to her. Just make the changes and keep going forward.

When or if she notice the first thing she will accuse you of is cheating, it's because it's what she is doing. Just look at her smile and keep going about your life. Your changes don't need an explanation to your WW. Let her wonder.

While you are doing this, you have to be positive. Read about positivity and how to achieve it such negativity and trying times. Smile and laugh more. At first it will seem fake, but after a while it will become natural. Find new friends to trade numbers with them. You have to make this time about YOU***** and your kids, NOT your WW.


M:37 W:37
T:11 M:10
S17, S13, S10, S4
BD:06/28/17
OM confirmed 07/20/17
Recon the M 10/29/17
Working hard:2gether

Onward and forward

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Quote:
So I got thinking, should I be engaging with my WW when she returns from these outings,asking if she had a good time, etc? I haven't been as I saw it as a form of pursing (I don't mention anything, I act if nothing took place that I care about) but wondered if I am handling it the best way for me as well as my daughters?


No, don't engage. When you daughter ask a question you don't know how to answer, just say, "I don't know how to answer that one, sweetheart". Don't make things so complicated for yourself.


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Originally Posted By: joejoe1
Natash,

Your W timeframe yesterday seems very suspicious. I would not start engaging with her more. You should detach more. IMO if you start to engage her more you are telling your W you are ok with her doing the things she is doing.

Makes sense, thank you. I am not ok with her actions and don't want to give that impression.
Quote:
I think your W probably bumped into you because she felt guilty and wanted to see if your were upset about her being out the timeframe she was yesterday. She was testing you.

Interesting, I took it as her being pissy and irritated she was running late and she had the get out of my way attitude, you know, but she could have very well been testing me.

Quote:
GAL, get some new clothes. If you have lost weight, get clothes that fit, shirts that show off your chest and arms. Get a new haircut(change your hair style up). Get some new glasses if you wear them. Get some new smell good.

Thank you for the tips. I recently went to a barber for a haircut, as my w has been cutting my hair for years. I also recently bought some new sunglasses, shoes, and three pairs of pants. I never shop for myself and usually get a pair or two of jeans at Christmas from the W. This year that didn't happen and it felt nice to have some new ones. I know the wife checked them out while they were in the shopping bag. I had set them done (hands full) and when I went back to pick the bag up it had been opened and moved.

Quote:
Your W is so enamored with what she is doing she don't see your improvements. But the more you change it up and detach she will start to take notice. Dont mention any of your changes to her. Just make the changes and keep going forward. [Quote] Isn't the enamored part the truth!

[Quote]When or if she notice the first thing she will accuse you of is cheating, it's because it's what she is doing. Just look at her smile and keep going about your life. Your changes don't need an explanation to your WW. Let her wonder.
Ah man, this would have been a great response to the day she did acuse me of cheating on her!

Quote:
While you are doing this, you have to be positive. Read about positivity and how to achieve it such negativity and trying times. Smile and laugh more. At first it will seem fake, but after a while it will become natural.


Thank you for the positivity reading recommendation as that is something I struggle with. I'm going to try to think of it as a game and she is not only the little old lady that is paying for room and board but she is crazy as well. You know, you wouldn't be mean to a little old crazy lady and at times would just have to laugh to not come off as being rude. I look forward to the day it starts to feel more natural so that is something I'll work on.


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No, don't engage. When you daughter ask a question you don't know how to answer, just say, "I don't know how to answer that one, sweetheart". Don't make things so complicated for yourself.


Ok I wont. Sandi you make it seem so simple which is helpful because as you can tell I have made it more complex on myself at times.

On a quick tangent, I mentioned the bike before with you and how I should handle it. My thought was next Saturday morning I tell my wife in the morning " I've bought a motorcycle and am going to pick it up, I'll be back in a bit " There is a good chance she'll ask where I got it. I can be vague to appoint (like say *at the Honda Powersports place") but if she doesn't back off with questions do you think I should tell her the local dealership? I don't want to lie to her but I don't want her to know I've been keeping it at a buddies until she had moved out (and until now has not).


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Hi Natash, Just read up on your thread, we have more similarities than you pointed out, our birthdays are a day apart (happy birthday to us?) and I live in the NE area too. Not a good year for us I suppose. Anyway, with such veterans around I am a newbie and cant offer any advice but wanted to just show my support and let you know I will also be listening along with the others when you want to vent out.

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You don't have to be vague about where you bought the bike. What and how much you share is up to you. But the approach about telling her nonchalantly that you've purchased a bike and are going to pick it up, seems okay to me. If she gets angry, she would have anyway......regardless of how you told her. I doubt she'll be happy about it, b/c she'll see money being taken away from her & the kids, somehow. I think she'll accuse you of being very selfish. If she accuses you of keeping it a secret, you can explain how you thought the two of you would be separated by this time...........or not. That is up to you. The thing is, she is not your mother. You don't have to explain your actions to her. This is a fault some H's fall into when they have NGS......and when they have a demanding/overbearing W.


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Well I'm back from my 7 day trip and it was amazing! 115 miles, record high water, snow still in places and saw 53 moose,otters,beavers,eagles,deer, two other paddlers and no clouds over the first 5 days! I did miss my daughters and on my drive back they called me to talk. Then the WW got on the phone and said we need to talk.

When I got home, the house was clean and everything of hers was gone. She told me she tried the under the same roof thing and anxiety meds but nothing's working and she was leaving and wanted my input about the talk with the girls. I told her that the girls had plans for bingo at school that night and a talk before that wouldnt be good. Neither would a talk at bedtime. I said she should get what she needs to stay the night and we would talk with the girls in the morning.She agreed and we gotta into a conversation. She mentioned in it we have both changed but I'm still selfish. We have a communication issue (my response was this is the first time in five months she initiated a conversation). She said she thought I was seeing someone else (because of my gal activities). I slipped and said absolutely not. She told me she is burnt out and nothing is working, not even the meds. Then continued it's time to stop putting the kids first and to put herself first. She has friends she wants to go out with but feels like she has to ask for permission first and that not right. She said she has regrets and needs time away from me. I had strong evidence EW had introduced my girls to OM and his D. I told my wife that I want it to be clear that the only men that need to be in our daughters lives are myself and their two grandfathrts. She said she respects my wish. Then she was going to her parents to grab some stuff for the night and she'd be back. I never heard the car start and she came back in balling. I asked her what the matter was and she said she should have never moved all of her stuff out like that and it was on impulse. I said I undrtstand, ive made some choices on impulse that i have regretted. I tried to stay strong but eyes did water at times. She grabbed some blankets and headed for the couch.In the morning we sat down with the girls and mom let them know she was moving out. They were heartbroken and wanted to know why we didn't talk it out and mom could stay. My W explained she needed time away from me and we will share them 50 percent. I lost it when I saw both my girls so visibly upset and I just handed then tissues and wrapped my arms around them both assuring them none if this is their fault and mom and dad love them so much. Around this same time I got confirmation that D5 told my mom that my W and two daughters had gone out to eat and mini golf with OM and his D. This is when I lost my calmness. I told her that I was done playing her game to leave our daughters out of this. She said "he's just a friend, it was innocent and is the reason I did not tell you". I said bullshit, you don't wait until your spouse goes our of town and go out to eat with another man PERIOD. It so happens to be the same guy you were texting and saying you loved him and lying to me about. I told you to stop the conversations and you lied about that. Now you're moving out and dating him and introducing the kids...so convenient. I told her stop thinking I'm ignorant and stupid I see what is happening. She swears they are not dating but I don't buy it. Is it right for me to ask my Daughters if they ever see him again? I know I can't control my WW but don't want the kids brought into this more than needed.

I'm at a different stage than I've ever been and looking for a few key pointers that have helped other separated folks?


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So she moved all her stuff out. Then balled saying it was a mistake. Then followed through with crushing her girls by telling them the move was happening.

In the meantime she met OM with the girls and his daughter.

Wow. She is way way wayward. I am thinking LRT. With the only contact being regarding the logistics around the girls.

But I will let the experts weigh in. Sorry man, this is rough stuff. I think you've done a lot of good things here, with the GAL. She obviously noticed because she thought you were seeing someone else.


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First, I want to say I know how difficult this all is and how painful it is to have your kids around the OP.

It was the absolute biggest struggle I had with this, I had to deal with it when my daughter was not even a year old.

I have to tell you though. You can ask her to keep him away from the kids, but..... if she chooses not to, there is nothing you can do about it. I tried like heck to keep OW away from my daughter. Didnt work. There is no legal recourse.

So I just chose to know as little as I could. Dont press the kids. Youll just find out what you dont want to know and the. Have no control over it.

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Well, I guess my phone can only handle one word

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So happy to hear you had a wonderful time on your trip!

Were you surprised when you got home and discovered she had removed her things?

Quote:
Then continued it's time to stop putting the kids first and to put herself first.


And there it is! ^^^^^^^^^ The WW slogan! This is not an original statement. It is WW script. I mean, what mother of little children would make such a selfish remark? A mother who is wayward, that's who. frown

Quote:
I told my wife that I want it to be clear that the only men that need to be in our daughters lives are myself and their two grandfathrts. She said she respects my wish


Two things here......(1) You can't control who she brings into your daughters lives. Sorry, but when the couple separates, she can do pretty much whatever she wants, as long as there is no solid proof of child maltreatment. (2) She lied. She doesn't respect your wishes, which she has made abundantly clear by her actions.

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Around this same time I got confirmation that D5 told my mom that my W and two daughters had gone out to eat and mini golf with OM and his D


See what I mean? You can't believe anything your WW says.

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Is it right for me to ask my Daughters if they ever see him again? I know I can't control my WW but don't want the kids brought into this more than needed.


I don't think kids should be asked those type of questions. If you keep your ears opened, you'll probably be able to tell.......if they feel they can talk freely in front of you. However, if they detect that daddy gets upset when they talk about mommy, then they won't volunteer information. You don't know that mommy won't be telling them it's their little secret and not to share with daddy. I hate to see parents do this to their kids. They need to feel safe in telling you anything.....and not worry how you may react. Even if you knew she was dating, what could you do about it? To her, your feelings about what she does is inconsequential.

Quote:
I'm at a different stage than I've ever been and looking for a few key pointers that have helped other separated folks?


Those who have been successful at reconciling.....and those who were successful in surviving a D, have said the most key points are to drop the rope and make a new life without your spouse. You really must let go of your need to control what she does. That is very important, b/c it will drive you crazy and your focus will be on her instead of where it needs to be. She's chosen this path and now you have to let her go. Someday she may return to you, but I don't think it will happen for some time. She has to experience life without you. If her life without you is not what she expected, then she may come knocking at your door. However, if she remains in the grip of waywardness, she may settle for a much less desirable lifestyle rather than return to her MR. Those words may sting, and I'm sorry if that's not what you want to hear. They are facts we see every day. It may not make sense........but it happens in many, many lives.

I am so sorry for you and the children. It is heartbreaking to see a family torn apart. Let yourself grieve over it, and try your best to let go and heal. FWIW, I suspect you will have the kids more than 50%, once your WW has to actually deal with a few parental responsibilities alone. I suspect she'll still depend, maybe even expect, you to rescue her whenever she is inconvenienced. Be prepared for more guilting from her whenever you don't comply.....since that seems to be her favorite card of manipulation.

((hugs))


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N, very sorry to hear. There are several of us on the board that have young kids that have gone through the same thing. What Sandi said is 100% correct, time to let go and focus on yourself and the kids. I will help all I can based on what I went through. My EW told me the same thing before she moved out.....she knew she was being selfish but she didnt care, that desire was stronger than her desire to keep our family together.

It really stinks but I can tell you that your kids will be happy handle the situation properly.

Last edited by Cadet; 05/13/18 08:49 AM. Reason: restored post

Married 14, Together 17
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M: 46, W: 45. D: 10. D: 8 (CUR)
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Now I am on my PC, let me try this again.

The worst part of the bomb drop was finding out days before my first mother's day that there was an OW. which I suspected, but had my proof. The thought of him leaving me for OW was enough. The thought of my not even year old baby being around this woman..... my God did the mama bear come out in me!

I demanded, begged, threatened, for him to never bring her around my daughter. He didn't listen, of course. Truth be told, I had no recourse. I wouldn't press your kids on them spending time together because there is nothing you can do about it. That is the cold, hard, reality. ANd I am truly sorry for it, because I know how it feels.

Fast forward 10 years and my ex has been married to this woman for 7 of them. She is my daughter's stepmother. But I will tell you, my daughter knows I AM HER MOTHER!! I can assure you, that you will always be Daddy.

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Thank you guys and girls for the advice, compliments, recommendations, and support. I was not surprised my WW moved her stuff out but I was surprised by her timing and that she took everything.

Update/journaling/ and any advice or critiques welcome:

Sunday was a big day for me. I have never lived alone and it was the first day in my new world. In the past, my w did all the groceries and cooking. Since BD I've started to learn to make meals, assisted with groceries several times and got them one weerk on my own. I decided that Sunday id plan the meals for the week and let my girls pick which meals they wanted to have while they were with me (Determined by my W to be Saturday thru Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday with her,etc). I took the girls to Walmart and who's vehicle for they spot? Mom's. It wasn't too far into the store we run into my W who is struggling. The first thing she says after saying hi is " can I have a hug" while breaking down crying. I struggled here because I know I need to be careful of the WW and waterworks. A small part of me felt bad but I was glad she saw me making it on my own. I felt a boost of confidence. I am fully capable of planning and shopping for the meals while spending time and having fun with my girls. I did give her a hug as i figured it was the right thing to do especially in front of my girls. She asked me if I needed help and I said "nah, D7 knows where most of the stuff is" She continued to follow us around for a bit checking out what I had picked up and Wondering what we were going to have for meals. I acted uninterested and focused on shopping. It was almost as if in her mind it was like old times when we would go shopping and push two carts around.

Later that day she texted me and asked if she could have the girls some since it was Mother's day. I reminded her that this separation was her idea and her timeframe and the kid schedule was set by her...she could have waited a week until after mother's day. In the end, I did say she could have the girls for a few hours. I knew that if Father's day was her day with the girls, I'd appreciate a few hours with them too. She picked the girls up at noon and texted me at 2:30 "when would youike the girls back?" Mr NG would have said whenever so I replied ASAP. When WW got home I had just got my tractor stuck in a wet spot in the lawn and was getting my truck to pull it out. WW says "so glad I hurried the girls back and all your doing is mowing, I could have spent more time with them" I said I was mowing but now am stuck. I won't be mowing now the girls are here. We need to finish building the trampoline (a Xmas gift to daughters from WW an I) and get ready to go to an early dinner out with my mom. She replied oh, ok then. I took my mom and dad out with the girls and I and we had a nice meal and time together.

Monday morning my wife delivered D7 fleece jacket by hanging it on the door knob on her way to work...she walked right by the trampoline. Monday night I get a text "can I come see the trampoline tomorrow night?" I started to respond " It looks the same as it did this morning. Something smells fishy, what do you really want?" I thought about it for a bit, erased it all and replied "sure". As much as I wanted to be sarcastic, I want to be the lighthouse more. Tuesday morning right off, I get a text from WW (keep in mind it has been three nights but only one full day of not seeing the girls). She says she is struggling, doesn't know what to do but wants to change the schedule as five days with one parent is too much. I told her I tried voicing that concern and was told "everyone else does this schedule and we'll adjust." She admitted it probably isn't the best even if everyone else she talked with followed it. I told her we'd have to sit down face to face and discuss this new 2-2-3 schedule before I could answer. So Tuesday night she came over to "see the trampoline" after working late. she texted me to tell me she had worked late to gain hours she'd be missing and that she just left work (I'll touch base on the hours gained Shortly) but I was surprised as even when living at home these past 4 months she wouldn't update me via a text. I had made tacos and used the rest of the hamburger and made meatballs for spaghetti in the future. I told the WW there is enough tacos that she could have some if she'd like so she sat down and the four of us had a meal. She thanked me and uncharacteristically picked up her plate, rinsed it, and put it in the dishwasher. I shouldn't have but I said " you haven't done any of that in the past, no need to start now" She said she's a big girl and can handle it. So back to the extra time my wife accrued...she told me she was going to get out of work each day the girls are with her two hours early. Up until now, the girls always came to my office after school where Grammy (my mom) helped watch them. I said to my W, it seems you are trying to avoid going there. She said "I am, I don't won't to face your mother. She never liked me until we had kids". I told her that wasnt true and there is no need to have anxiety around my mother (my w does not know but my M has been kept in the loop all along and has not treated my WW any different than normal). I told my W that if she changed the kids afternoon schedule, it's one more change for then to deal with and my parents enjoy spending an hour each day with their grandkids. I let her know it will be ok and if she feels anxious or awkward at all to let me know. My W in tears thanked me and said she'd try it out.
I suggested to my W to take the girls the next two nights and I'll switch Thursday night with her. So she did.

Today went well with her picking up the girls at my work but tonight she called me crying saying D5 has cried all night long.She asked her if she wanted to go back and be with dad and he said no. nothing was working. "I don't know what to do, do they cry all the time when with you?" she said. I so wanted to say yoy walked out on your marriage and family, the girls are heart broken and now your coming to me for answers? Instead I said "I don't know what to tell you" This upset her as sshe started to talk and said never mind. I spoke up and said please don't start explaining something and cut it short with nevermind. She continued on by saying she was looking for some help and didn't know what to do. I asked her if she had comforted my D5 and tried talking with her. She hadn't but said she'd try. I viewed this as my W is unable to appease her own child and WW actions are causing W more grief than she had planned oon. I got to talk with both my Daughters at bed time and got D5 to calm down a bit. Later on I got a text from WW saying everything was better,she was just dealing with three emotional girls.

On another note, I have a few things of my W around the house like her dresser and her cat. She said she'd come get the cat but hasnt and would get the dresser later. I'm working on dropping the rope and don't want reminders/belongings around. The cat was a gift from me to her (and i Don't like cats). Is now the right time to tell the w her stuff is in the garage and to come get it? Deliver the cat to her? Or would it be best to hold off a little bit?


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I decided that Sunday id plan the meals for the week and let my girls pick which meals they wanted to have while they were with me (Determined by my W to be Saturday thru Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday with her,etc


Wait, are you saying she will have the girls only two days out of the week? Wednesday & Thrusady.....sounds about right. Leaves long weekends opened for her. Well, she'll change it around a dozen times b/c nothing is going to work well for her.

Quote:
WW says "so glad I hurried the girls back and all your doing is mowing, I could have spent more time with them"


I realize the nice guy in you is in the habit of giving her explanations or accountability for everything you do, but all that changes now. Yoir time and what you do when the girls are there, is none of her business. She wanted to have free weekends, and several holidays fall on Sunday......guess she didn't consider that into her plans. Anyway, you were kind enough to let her have the kids awhile on Mother's Day......then she grips at you b/c you had been mowing? You gave her way too much explanation. Break yourself from this habit, b/c she has fired you, remember? You owe her no explanations.......especially detailed ones.

Quote:
Instead I said "I don't know what to tell you" This upset her as sshe started to talk and said never mind. I spoke up and said please don't start explaining something and cut it short with nevermind. She continued on by saying she was looking for some help and didn't know what to do. I asked her if she had comforted my D5 and tried talking with her. She hadn't but said she'd try. I viewed this as my W is unable to appease her own child and WW actions are causing W more grief than she had planned oon. I got to talk with both my Daughters at bed time and got D5 to calm down a bit. Later on I got a text from WW saying everything was better,she was just dealing with three emotional girls
.

I told you this would happen. She can't even get through the first night with them, without calling you to rescue her. Of course it hard on D5. I saw my GD5 go through the same thing, and it will tear your heart out.

Quote:
Is now the right time to tell the w her stuff is in the garage and to come get it? Deliver the cat to her? Or would it be best to hold off a little bit?


Sounds like unnecessary work, moving the dresser and things into the garage and then calling her. I would ask her when she was going to get the rest of her things, and if she just brushes it off...then move it to the garage and not say anymore about it. The cat, however, is another story. I mean, it's not like she has to build an outdoor pen for it. Next time she comes by the house, hand her the cat and tell her to take it home with her.


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Checking in and updating:

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote:
I decided that Sunday id plan the meals for the week and let my girls pick which meals they wanted to have while they were with me (Determined by my W to be Saturday thru Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday with her,etc

Wait, are you saying she will have the girls only two days out of the week? Wednesday & Thrusady.....sounds about right. Leaves long weekends opened for her. Well, she'll change it around a dozen times b/c nothing is going to work well for her.


Yes, she had them two days, then two days off, then three days and the following week it's opposite. I found out this past Friday, WW went to a concert and MIL watched my girls. She told them at bedtime it was too late to call me and say goodnight. I told both my girls no matter what time of the day or night, if they call me I will answer.

Quote:
Quote:
WW says "so glad I hurried the girls back and all your doing is mowing, I could have spent more time with them"


I realize the nice guy in you is in the habit of giving her explanations or accountability for everything you do, but all that changes now. Yoir time and what you do when the girls are there, is none of her business. She wanted to have free weekends, and several holidays fall on Sunday......guess she didn't consider that into her plans. Anyway, you were kind enough to let her have the kids awhile on Mother's Day......then she grips at you b/c you had been mowing? You gave her way too much explanation. Break yourself from this habit, b/c she has fired you, remember? You owe her no explanations.......especially detailed ones.

Thank you for pointing that out. I like the example of I've been fired and will keep that in mind. I gave her too much response, attention and my time over that.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

Sounds like unnecessary work, moving the dresser and things into the garage and then calling her. I would ask her when she was going to get the rest of her things, and if she just brushes it off...then move it to the garage and not say anymore about it. The cat, however, is another story. I mean, it's not like she has to build an outdoor pen for it. Next time she comes by the house, hand her the cat and tell her to take it home with her.


Well I haven't moved the dresser and will let it stay where it is for now, like you said unnecessary work at this point. The cat however got discussed before I read your response. I had texted we to see if she was picking the girls up at school (since she never confirmed it with me) and also asked her when she planned to pick ttbe cat. She said she needed to figure that out and then she sent another saying she needed to swap her winter tires and rims over to the summer tires and rims on her vehicle. I responded"you've had a week to figure this out, your cat and tires will be ready to be picked up after work tonight. She responded pissy saying oh well, if this is how it is going to be she would come get her bike and kayak. Then another text "last I knew it was my house too?!" I replied, the tires you mentioned being ready along with the cat have nothing to do with your bike, house, or kayak. She thanked me for the clarification.

I told my girls I was going to drop the cat off with Mom. They got upset and said then they wouldn't have a pet at home and there were already pets at Mom's. Tonight I found out my WW was planning on giving the 13 year old cat away. I told her don't bother, I'll take care of it as it would be unfare for the girls to loose a pet over this. WW offered to pay for food and litter and I excepted.

I feel I'm in a good place right now. My mood has been good this past week and I've dropped the rope. I haven't been on the forum much as it makes me think about the sitch too much so instead I've been enjoying GAL and working on myself. I've been able to make progress detatching for a few reasons. First, after a meeting with the vice president of our credit union that knows my situation, she told me that I've got a lot going for me. I'm attractive, got a good head on my shoulders, have one of the nicest homes in town, financially do well, and have a nice work ethic. She told me finding someone like myself is rare. After leaving the meeting, I got a boost in confidence. I realized I have a lot going for me and a lot to be proud of. I'm intelligent, earned two college degrees, have two happy healthy girls, a nice home, and within ten years will own my own business. If my WW doesn't appreciate me and what I have to offer then she will miss out and I know others out there would love to trade places with her.

The second reason is that back when WW was on her phone constantly after I had told her the convocation with OM had to stop, I thought I had seen a page with profiles. I began to wonder if she was on a dating site so I joined a few. I never saw her and recently logged on to one to see what was available. I realize it's not the best thing to do but I am lonely and what I found was a beautiful girl working on a bright upcoming career. She was divorced and stated she was not perfect but loyal and knew what she wanted and wouldn't settle for anything less. After reading her profile, I fit right into everything. I could not get her off my mind and wanted to start a conversation with her in the worst way.That would mean I'd need to add pictures and info to my profile! That night I woke from a dead sleep with this mystery girl on my mind.The next day I had come across something, reading about the journey I'm on and not to have a rebound relationship. Not to mention, dating while married is against my beliefs. I realized I need to forget about creating a profile and chatting. Forget about this girl if I ever wanted to R with WW so that is what I have done. Everything happens for a reason and it showed me there are other attractive women with nice careers and goals around if and when the time comes to date.

This past weekend was my first weekend/three days alone. I got to finally go to the new brewery my friends have started up. While there, another buddy I hadn't seen since summer came in so we had some beer together. I ate there, left, and joined a close friend for some more drinks while celebrating his daughters birthday. Sunday I took my new bike for a 50 mile ride and had an ice cream along a Lakeshore after mowing the lawn for two hours and working around the house.

Today I saw WW at work when she picked up my daughters. It was the first time in 8 days. It felt strange that I didn't have any thoughts. Nothing I wanted to talk about, no comments in my mind like I normally would (like dang she looks good). We briefly talked about the girls and she left. I find that I no longer care what she's up to and who it's with. This weekend I'm taking my girls and the camper camping for two nights/three days. Im almost done loading it up. Alot of work alone but I'm capable of it all. Then tonight I got offered to go whitewater rafting with a friend and ten others next weekend. I've realized my life has changed but shown myself I can do this. I know it is early and under two weeks in but I'm in control and can have the life and activities I want even if my wife is not here to support or join me. In some ways, having more freedom now is allowing me to do things I wouldn't have done in the past and I'm thankful for that.

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Journal update:
I've have enjoyed the last seven days and am getting use to the single dad lifestyle.I took last Friday off. WW dropped off the girls with Dunkin donuts for breakfast. She even bought a donut and juice for me to have with my Daughters (I later thanked her for that). I had loaded up the camper and after breakfast took my girls camping for a few days at a beautiful state park that I had never camped at. They enjoyed riding their bikes, cooking over the fire, hiking around the park and ocean shoreline and drove up a mountain that overlooks the harbor village. Saturday morning D5 woke up with a bruised and bloodshot eye. I gave her some eye drops and we then ride bikes, hiked around and later walked to get an ice cream. My D5 only took three licks and had enough. She said her head hurt so we took an hour nap and headed in town. She still didn't seem her self and when I took them out to eat, d5 did not touch her meal once it was on the table and said her belly hurt. I left halfway through my wonderful local blueberry beer and meal thinking she was going to get sick anytime.Back at the camper she immediately laid down and that is when I decided we had to head home. I did not have my W there to watch them Incase I needed to head into town for supplies. I did not have any medicine or thermometer in case of a temperature. At this point in the trip is where I was amazed with D7. I told her we have to pack up and head home now. She knew her sister wasn't feeling well and D7 did not ask any questions or complain once. I showed her how to crank up the stabilizers, she helped me roll up the awning, move the picnic table and then she learned how to undo the wheel chocks (after I had the camper hitched to the truck). We took down camp in record time, quicker than when my A and I would do it. I was so proud of her for all the help. After getting home and taking D5 into express care, turns out she had a several head cold virus that affected her eyes and she is being treated for conjunctivitis and much better now.

On Memorial day I got invited to play golf. I went and really had fun and met a new guy (friend of a friend). I didn't play well because it was my first time golfing in 6 years but it was fun and I got invited back to my buddies house for an amazing BBQ. Several people there know my wife and I and they seem to empathize with me and my sitch. I called it a night after a few beers and several games of Cornhole. I enjoyed the short ride home on my new motorcycle.

Through out this week, I've noticed my W has texted me several times. Probably more in the last 7 days than the seven months. I find it interesting, maybe she is senseing I've dropped the rope. My D had given me a free mini golf game from when she went with W and OM. She wanted me to use it when we go. So I had plans to take them two days ago and oddly enough WW texts "I've been meaning to ask you if you had a free mini golf card of mine?" I said yeah, d5 gave it to me to use tomorrow when I take the girls. She replied " well that isy free game that I got and d5 filed it from my hands and wouldn't give it back. You can give it back to me" I replied, I'll give it to D7, you will get it back to tonight. Several hours later she texts "it's fine, I just wanted you to know" then later on "you can keep the free game card, I didn't realize they expire." Then W explained how impressive and helpful D7 was with D5 at the doctor's. I had heard enough about the free mini golf game and texted back "awesome about D7! I'm done wasting time discussing your free game. Later on she responds "well let's be honest, if you had paid for a game and won a free round you wouldn't want me to have it so when it's the other way around...well, I would have never taken it" She was acting like I took it from my Dad to get a free game and not realizing D5 was excited to give what I thought was her free card up to use. In the past I would have tried to get the.last word on if I already told ww I was done discussing it and stuck to it by not responding.WW actually called me on the phone the next night to tell me the story she had already texted me about D7 being helpful answering doctors questions about d5.She was talking and in a good mood as if it were the good old days and wanted to tell me in person because it was funnier than reading it in a text. She was talking to me like we were best friends. I found it odd but will take this over the bitchy cold withdrawn self she has been.

Yesterday I got a txt inviting me to join the w and girls at a school carnival type event tomorrow if I didn't have plans. I responded thank you you but I have plans (to go whitewater rafting) and won't be able to attend. I thought it was a nice gesture by the ww but part of me thinks it was just to make things with the family out in public look good for her. I debated last night about posting pictures to Facebook of our camping trip. Ww is suppose to be making the payment on the camper. I was concerned that if she saw the pics and realized what she is missing out on, she'd get angry and stop making payments for something that only benefit me as she has no way to haul it. Then I thought about it and said self...there are family and friends that would enjoy the pics and I'm not going to stop using Facebook if ww and I end up divorced so I'm not letting her have control over me and I posted them. Many more friends reacted or commented than I expected and surprisingly ww was one who liked them. This is the first thing I've posted in probably six months that she "liked".

Last but not least, last night I had my mom and dad over for dinner. They now come over one night a week for dinner when I have the girls. It is nice for me and the girls enjoy it. Also my youngest sister joined and now all three of my sister's are up to speed on my sitch so that was a relief in a way. D7 found out two of her aunt's were going to be in town this weekend. She wanted to make plans to see them so I told her she'd have to talk with mom(as it's mom's weekend with the girls). D7 went right to the phone And called ww. Then ww wants to talk to me and with attitude says daughters can't be put in the middle. If they want to see their aunt's (my sister's) they should be able to even if it isn't my weekend. I said we'll this is a result from a choice you made and I'm sticking to the schedule and if it is your weekend with the girls I will not make plans for or tell you what to do. She said that's not my point and here we go it's like I'm talking to a wall (raising her voice), the girls should not miss out,isn't that what you want? I said settle down and listen to me...this hasn't been about what I want so don't bring that up now. W replied, what's that supposed to mean? I said that's a conversation for a different time. She then said oh, is it about coming home cause nothing has been done on that front. You want me to come home? I responded no and you are not talking to a wall. I understand what you are saying but I don't agree ( I think changing the schedule around to benefit the opposite parent at the time can lead to issues if taken advantage of and my family does not want to be around ww until/if she shows some remorse. Anyone chime in to help clarify this situation for me? Then ww brought up a birthday that d7 was invited to (ww found the invitation when she came to the house to pick up her mail). I talked with D7 about it but did not mention it to WW because the party landed on a date I have the girls. Ww started to cry on the phone " I've always taken the girls to birthday parties since they were born". I said yes you have, and all of their doctors appointments...she cut me off crying more "this isn't the time for praise. I don't want to miss out on these events just because of our situation and the girls happen to be with you". I told her I need to say good bye to some people and I'd have to call her back. I haven't called her back and I understand what she is saying but think it is her selfishness kicking in. She didn't realize some of these consequences from her decision to separate, seperate our schedules and move out. What is the best way to handle this?

I find these interactions making me question things and try to understand or get into ww's head and I'm know that is not the right thing to do as it is pointless. It makes it harder cause I'm thinking does she want to communicate more? But she hasn't shown remorse so I need to routinely tell myself I have dropped the rope right? Detaching is easier without the constant texts that's for sure.


Me:37 W:42
T:14 yrs M:10.5 yrs
D:7 D:5
BD: 1/6/18 OM Discovered: 1/29/18
WW moved out 5/12/18
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 74
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Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 74
Not much has changed regarding my situation other than I've really got used to and enjoy GAL activities. I had a blast last weekend whitewater rafting and this weekend took my girls to a free outdoor celebration with bounce house, climbing wall, ice cream, face painting etc on Saturday and today I took them to a zoo and then spent the afternoon swimming in our pool for the first time this year. While at the celebration, my ww bf came up to me and said hi and asked how I'm doing. I said I'm doing all right. She shoky her head about my ww and said I'm trying to get her to read self help books but she doesn't always want to hear what I say. I told her well it's going to be her loss and my gain. Ww bf mom new about the situation and said Natash, it's time you start hanging out with another woman and that'll open her eyes or sit her down and tell her I'm moving on with my life and my girls and I am going to find someone that wants to be with me and maybe it's time to go visit an attorney. I told her that it's getting close to that but I take it one day at a time and have learned to not rush a decision especially if emotions are at play.

I found it interesting that in the past week WW posted on FB she wishes life had a reset button one day and then another she put "oh what to do on this beautiful day?" I laughed and thought " if you hadn't made the choices you have, you'de be busy enjoying the sun on the deck or in the pool playing with your family and not looking for something to do"

Today she texted me asking if I wanted to "go something together for D5s upcoming birthday" I replied go? (Not knowing if she meant get or do or something else). She came back "really you couldn't figure that out lol" Same old sarcastic self she is I see. I'm done playing mind games and told her it could have meant get and do not give me a hard time for clarifying something. I then told her I'd have to think about it and get back to her.

This is where id like suggestions.

I think it would be best for my D if we did one party together but I'm not looking forward to planning anything with ww for a few reasons. This past February I remember her telling me she needed space but if anything happened to us she wouldn't want to fight like her friend and her ex does now they are divorced and she wants to stay friends and would like to have the girls birthday parties at home still. I said we'll see come that time, the girls might want a bowling party or something. Not to mention divorce involves money and family that often brings out a fight from both sides and you have wishful thinking if you expect to be best friends. Now the time is here and I think the WW is thinking about a pool party at our beautiful home that she no longer lives at. In the past, birthday party's have been a success but huge stress. I have not been a part in the planning and it's not because I don't want to. It's because my ww and MIL would come up with ideas planning and go all out and do it all on their own hosting the party. During this time they would do all the work and then the day of the party stress to the max so neither one was fun to be around. I remember last yet MIL asked for an ice cream scoop so I went inside to get one. While I was pulling it out of the draw, she came in and grabbed a spoon and I can't wait any lot it's melting! Really, 20seconds after getting what she asked for was not fast enough. Anyways, at the end of the day the guests were happy and enjoyed the hard work my ww and mil put into the party but several last year came up to me after and asked why MIL seemed to be in a bad mood. I told them she stresses out until it's over and realizes everyone had fun. My wife is the same way. I didn't like being around her until the party was well underway before and definitely don't look forward to it now we are separated! She handles stress poorly even though most of the stress is self induced on that day. However, if I can suck it up and plan this with my ww, it would be a 180 so I'm thinking I should say "yes, let's plan something together. Are you thinking about having a pool party? "

I've done such a good job detatching lately. However, she does seem to find a reason to text me daily about the girls... yesterday it was " did you remember sunscreen? I think she talked with bff and learned we had attended the outdoor celebration/BBQ. I ignored it and didn't respond. I feel I have dropped the rope and wonder what it will be like having her back at home for the day around family and friends, many of them that do not agree with what she has done and don't care to be art her until she shows remorse.


Me:37 W:42
T:14 yrs M:10.5 yrs
D:7 D:5
BD: 1/6/18 OM Discovered: 1/29/18
WW moved out 5/12/18
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 616
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Posts: 616
Have your own party without the W. Her wanting to come home and do that is some serious cake eating. She can have another party for your D somewhere else some other time if she wants. She needs to feel the loss. Remember, she fired you from being her H...




http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2795404#Post2795404

Last edited by Cadet; 06/12/18 12:04 AM. Reason: Link

Me: 38
W:31
Kids: S16(mine from previous R), D10, S9, S4
M: 10 years
T:12 years
BD:Jan 3, 2018
W moved out: Apr 13,2018
Filed for D: Jun 2018
D final: Sep 2019

"Surrender to the Flow"...
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