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Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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It is sad to see this WW cycle. Hoping that the WW wouldn't crash and burn totally. Since there still is love for the WW after all. It is hard to see her risking everything in her life. Not only her family and relationship but her business and friendships also. To see all this chewing her down little by little. And her realizing it but not wanting to do anything about it. And there is little she can do about it. And knowing that there is absolutely nothing you can do but to watch it happen and take it's course and pray that she'll make it out in one piece. No matter what happens in the end, they have taught us a lot. They make us look deep inside ourselves, change our perspectives, change who we are. Make us better. And that is something to be grateful of.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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One thing I discovered, I loved the G but I love me more.

I love not being part of the cycle of destruction.

Petri, you are moving to observer mode, good for you. There is no need to bail out WW, no longer your job, yours is to keep your boat afloat.

V


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


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Thank you V. I now truly understand that there are things one just can't fix. W has never had to deal with her things by herself. Some has always bailed her. Mostly her mom. And her mom is trying to do it now also. Doing things for her, helping with her finance. She just needs to learn responsibility.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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Last night I had to be a therapist for Ws BFF. She is going through her own D. This is a good way to learn to listen. Only to listen not fixing things. As it appears I'm actually good at it. BFF only briefly mentioned W. BFF is worried about W. I just told her that this is something W has to go through for herself. I told her that I just need to move forward with my own life. And hope that W doesn't ruin her life completely.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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It's funny how W can act like the Saturday never happened. It's been like that the whole time. She reacts and the next minute is like nothing happened.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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P,

Stop posting this pointless drivel about what your W is doing and let's here about some of your goals.

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Need quick guidance! W just texted that she wants to soend night at our home while I'm there. Watch a movie, doesn't want to leave the kids just yet.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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I am sorry I have plans tonight.

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That won't cut it b/c I'm with kids. She knows I don't have plans.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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You have plans with the kids. Take them out somewhere.

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Problem solved. She didn't stay. And I couldn't of used that LH. Since it's about 10 p.m. here so there couldn't be any plans with the kids.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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Last night ended in these texts.

"I've been thinking about things. That's pretty much all I've been doing. I feel I've overthought things and my head is a mess."
"Especially in spring when I thought so f-ing much about these. And summer and fall. There were moments that I just couldn't think anymore, of course, or I would of gone crazy."
"Now from x-mas to this day selfdoubt and selfblame etc have surfaced."
"But I can't just say ok lets try. I can't say anything to that yet. Mostly I'm afraid of myself P. That can I give you unconditional love anymore. That is what I'm afraid of. And is there enough it to build on."


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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I haven't responded to these. Mainly b/c I don't know if I should or what to respond if I should. But what I do know is that she will never feel anything towards me while the OM is in the picture. But my plans don't change. No matter what. The house will remain for sale. I keep moving forward. She needs to get her head straight and end the A. Only then we can even think about what to do.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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My head is now spinning like a pinball. Where is up and where is down? Everyone says this is a rollercoaster. Yes it is.

W bombeb with texts again. If only I had changed when she told me. She never got any appreciation from me. Her selfesteem was low when we met and never got up. Now it is up and there are moments when she is proud of herself.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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I need to quit stopping. If I stop and listen to her she just dumps everything on me. If I keep going she starts the I don't know what I want. She is screwing with my head. And I let her.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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Just keep walking P. Stay strong! You are walking out from the mess. It is up to her to follow you. Get out!


WW H(me): 53
W: 48
T: 27 M: 22
S: 18
Piecing since 03/2016
Saw the light in the storm
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I am doing my best. But she just gets under my skin. I know that tomorrow her mindset is totally different. And the next day and so on.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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P,

That is because you are still way to attached to her and hang on any little crumb that comes your way. She is just checking to see if plan b is still available and you are like a seagull at the beach waiting for someone to drop some crumbs.

Have you considered blocking her from your phone or telling her to only text you if it involves the kids?

Expect for this to go on for a very long time.

What goals are you currently working on?

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I need small goals to start with.

Don't respond to messages unless urgent or questions about kids.
GAL! Do karate, visit friends and family.
Read! Knowledge is power.
Make sure to get enough sleep and eat well.
Give kids time.

These are good to start with.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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P,

Those are good goals to start with but are you getting any exercise other then karate? It is an excellent stress reliever.

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I do karate from 3-5 times a week. Besides that no other exercise at the moment. And one more goal...meditation everyday!


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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I now texted W that if we could keep contact limited only regarding kids and urgent practical matters. No answer so I assume it's ok with her.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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I need small goals to start with.

These are good goals, let's hone them!

Don't respond to messages unless urgent or questions about kids.

State as a positive and in the current active voice. The brain doesn't process negatives.

I respond quickly to urgent messages about the kids otherwise I have great peace and silence in my life.



GAL! Do karate, visit friends and family.

I enjoy great GAL which includes weekly visits to family and friends.


Read! Knowledge is power.

I am an avid reader of books on ....... every month and as a result I enthusiastically learn as knowledge is power.


Make sure to get enough sleep and eat well.

I sleep like a log and I always have nutritious food as a result I glow with health and vitality


Give kids time.

I spend X hrs per week with each of my kids in quality time by......

These are good to start with.

-------------------

Now they are G R E A T

V


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


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Thanks V! Now they teally are GREAT!

W responded to message regarding communication. "If it's easier for you then do it"


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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I see myself wallowing in Ws words. Maybe I was a terrible H. Maybe I did crush her selfesteem. Maybe I made her invisible. Maybe she was unloved and unwanted. Maybe our relationship was the reason her finances are in a bad spot. Did I see myself doing it? No I did not. Did I REALLY love her? Yes I did, with my whole heart. I just didn't love her the right way. In her language.

I'll get ovet these thoughts soon.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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Originally Posted By: petri
I see myself wallowing in Ws words. Maybe I was a terrible H. Maybe I did crush her selfesteem. Maybe I made her invisible. Maybe she was unloved and unwanted. Maybe our relationship was the reason her finances are in a bad spot. Did I see myself doing it? No I did not. Did I REALLY love her? Yes I did, with my whole heart. I just didn't love her the right way. In her language.

I'll get ovet these thoughts soon.



And maybe pigs fly and brains are scrambled eggs.

Maybe this, perhaps that.

We forget that most of us are ordinary we do our very best with what we know. When we know then we can't unknow. It's ok.....

And she had a mouth to say what she felt.

Yes be responsible for your stuff but we forget that as LBS even being perfect wouldn't be enough.

Whilst you don't need to forgive her, you can forgive you.

V


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


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I got over these thoughts in a couple of hours. But you are right V. Especially about the perfect not being enough.
I've actually forgiven her. So it's about time I forgive myself.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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petri I struggle with this too. I know I was a selfish, critical, and at times controlling jerk. No way around it. However, stepping outside of a marriage is never justified. Ending a marriage. Maybe. Especially if there is physical abuse? Absolutely. But stepping outside of a marriage, going to another member of the opposite sex for emotional support, or physical pleasure, is just wrong.

I once counseled a friend of mine who was having trouble in her marriage years ago. She asked me if I would ever cheat. I told her no. I said (and I stole this from Dr. Phil I believe) "If people would put as much time and effort into fixing their marriages that they put into sneaking around and having affairs, their marriages would be a whole lot better."

I truly believe that. The WS can always find fault with the LBS. We are imperfect human-beings. But that doesn't justify immorality on their part.


M(53), W(54),D(19)
M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017
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Besides Karate and visiting family/friends, what does Petri do for fun? There is absolutely nothing wrong in visiting family/friends, especially if you get their emotional support. However, most will ask how you've been doing, and it's easy to start talking about your WW, etc. You need something that completely removes you from the constant reminders of your sitch. What do you enjoy that is just good ole fun?

I remember reading that "laughter is the best medicine for the soul". There is even scientific proof that good hard belly laughs restore (all that science stuff) that the body needs. I have also read that, "stress kills". We all have to face some form of stress nearly every day. But the kind of stress that comes with your sitch has to have moments of relief.......(according to Dr. Sandi). Eventually, your emotions should start to balance out, but I encourage you to find something that is really fun and leaves you with a smile at the end of the day. ((hugs))


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Petri, I can relate a lot to how you're feeling. Perhaps you can't forgive yourself all at once but you can start on that path. I keep thinking of taking notecards and writing each apology to my husband on each one and keeping them in a box. I don't know if I'd ever give them to him, but at least those apologies and regrets are recorded and documented. It's so hard when you understand these things after it's too late, but I hope maybe in five or ten years we'll be in a different place in our lives where maybe we and our spouses can talk again and forgive each other and be friends or even try again. I really hope for that.

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Nicole.

I'm going through this book Radical Self-Forgiveness. If it's anything like Radical Forgiveness, I am about to be amazed. I went through the Radical Forgiveness exercises and wow. The feeling is amazing.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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Petri, I'll try to buy that book too. Thanks for mentioning it. I hope it helps you to heal!

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I spent today with MIL. She was at our house while I was there. W was at the cottage with kids. I started convo with MIL asking has she already met the new son-in-law recruit. That somewhat broke the ice between us. MIL said that she had suspected something but didn't think W would be that stupid to start an affair. MIL started talking what she thought about all this. She and FIL don't understand Ws choices. She wondered what crisis W is in and W has "lost it". I told her that it doesn't matter why this is happening. It is happening and we have to deal with it as it is. MIL hoped that W would go and get help for herself. They are worried about W. I told that so am I but this is something she has go through by herself. MIL ended the convo by asking/saying this isn't going to end well for W when she realizes what has happened, is it?

It was a good convo. There was no accusing, kept it neutral. We both brought up worry for W but understood that there is nothing we can do. I know sandi's rules "forbid" contacting in-laws. But I think those are more of pleading and crying to them to try to influence W. These was not that type of convo.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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P,

Do you think telling her mom will get you closer to your goal or push you further from it?

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LH,

Telling her what? MIL already knew about the OM. W had told her.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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Originally Posted By: petri
MIL said that she had suspected something but didn't think W would be that stupid to start an affair.

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LH,

I have told in previous thread that W has told MIL about the OM. MIL said that before she knew she had suspected that W has an A. But didn't hink W would be that stupid. I wouldn't of brought it up if I hadn't known MIL knew about it.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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It was a risky move. B/c when W told me that her mom knows about it, she hadn't actually told her. MIL heard about it a week ago. W told me MIL knows almost three weeks ago.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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Quote:
It was a good convo. There was no accusing, kept it neutral. We both brought up worry for W but understood that there is nothing we can do. I know sandi's rules "forbid" contacting in-laws


No, it doesn't. It says not ask for help from family and friends, and not to discuss private matters that would upset the spouse.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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It's been some days so time for some update. Ws A has ended. She is a total emotional wreck. Her finances are a mess. But I'm still kicking on and moving forward as planned.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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W is now starting IC. She admits that she has lost it completely. But she now asked if we could put the house sale on hold. So she can figure things out. I told her that I have conditions regarding that before I can even think about it. She needs to cut all ties to OM and convince me that it has happened, stop with the girls gone wild act and basically get her head straight.

Any thoughts?


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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I think you are right, the cutting ties is an absolute deal breaker. That has to happen or you have nothing. I would say a discussion about needs might be helpful. What do you need ie respect, loyalty, honesty and then what does she need - whatever she may need. See if you can understand some basic needs first and be very clear about unacceptable behaviors.

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Petri, this is amazing news!!! I'm so happy to hear that your wife is returning to normal. I can't believe how much suffering she put you through but that's so great to think she may receive treatment and there may be hope. This gives the rest of us hope too for our situations. I really look forward to hearing how things progress!

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I realized I forgot to share thoughts about what you should do. It seems in the beginning, for a few instances, just re-connecting would be helpful. Just sharing positive updates about your life, telling a joke, perhaps going to a coffee shop and not talking about anything too serious....you can test the water and then start to lay out your conditions and make it clear that everything is contingent right now on how she behaves. Perhaps you don't need to make any promise about the house just yet. It seems that your wife will need to spend a long time getting treatment and fixing her life before you can be convinced that it's worth another shot (even though inside you must be so happy), so maybe the house needs to be sold anyway for financial reasons during that time? I don't know your personal situation but I can just tell you that I went through this with my husband two years ago and I took him back too easily and now he's gone again. It's worth losing your house to fix your marriage for the long-term.

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Don't rush her. It will take her time to sort her feelings out, get over OM. And realize she wants her M again.

This is the stage that H's get really antsy to get back together. Remember, she has to work to get you back, or she will be wish-washy in the relationship.

She has to be the one to pursue you. When she interacts with you, don't be cold, Petri. But hold her no closer than arms length, until you feel she has her head together and really wants to work on the MR. Even then, I suggest you don't hurry back to live under the same roof. Although she may see an IC, I strongly encourage you both to see a professional who works with couples healing from an affair. If you don't have guidance, it narrows the likelihood of making it back full way.

This is great, that she has ended the A, if she stops her GGW behavior. That's her decision to make, and she needs to do without pressure from you. Otherwise, she will feel that lifestyle beckoning her.

BTW, unless she asks, don't be too quick to give her your list of stipulations she must meet in order to reconcile the MR. This is another mistake some H's make. But it was right that you told her you had certain conditions to meet. She doesn't need to simply assume you are ready to run back into her arms, until she has proven to you she is through with the wayward behavior.

When her willingness--behavior--words--attitude consistently match with what you need to see in her in order to believe she truly wants to work to save her M.......then that will be a good "sign" that she is trying. I can't stress enough that she has to pursue you, and work to get you back......or once you're back, she is likely to put you through this a second time.


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Home is where the heart is. This house doesn't matter so much. She isn't out of the WW land yet. And if we were to try again we need to live separately anyways. But there is a lot of change in her. Some subtle some not. Some positive some not. But I am very happy inside. And I am glad I was able to keep my cool and not show it to her. And there is one thing I've decided also. I want to go through with the D. Get a clean slate on things.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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Sandi.

What's your take on the house? Should I agree to put it on hold? If she can come in terms with my conditions.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

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Petri, please can you share what you mean by going through with the divorce to get a clean slate? Meaning you want to proceed with divorce but still want to fix things with your wife and you'd re-marry her? This sounds exactly like what my husband proposed but I don't understand the logic. It'd be interesting to hear more about your thoughts on this.

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Nicole.

I think it's more a mental thing. Leaving the old behind and starting with new. And maybe remarry. Start dating again. Start building new foundations brick by brick. But that is all thinking way ahead. First we need to see what happens with W. And the house...I just don't know what to do.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

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I want to explain how things went to this. I had informed W earlier that, on monday when we were ment to swap places, I didn't have any other plans than MC by myself. Later W told me that the A was over. The OM actually ended it. He wanted a real R and W couldn't offer that. And then W told me she had had arhytmias for a couple of weeks when she had these crying"attacks". I told her that this is not doing to work anymore and you need help. I then asked if she wanted to go to MC and talk. She said yes, I really need that. And now we are here.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

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Petri, it makes sense what you're saying and this is what my husband says too. But in your case I think you mean it whereas I don't know if my husband means it. Right now your wife is ready to try again and my husband isn't, but I really want to see how your situation plays out. I hope you don't just leave this board one day when things get better. It would be very helpful if you keep us posted.

If your wife willing to counseling and actually goes consistently then that's a good sign. This is a very fragile time because it sounds like there is hope now, and this is a dream-come-true for you to possibly avoid losing everything and keeping your family together. It will require a lot of careful thought and planning for sure. If your wife is only sorry to lose OM but not completely sorry for her own actions, and doesn't want to fix herself, then there's only so much progress to be made. Like Sandi says, if you don't fix the issues completely now your wife could do this again. That's what happened to my husband and I. If you do this right you may very well have a wonderful fifty years ahead with your wife so it's worth taking the time to focus on your long-term goals and take your time with the reconciliation process.

You will also likely start to feel very angry with your wife after the initial happiness of having her return wears off. You may want to start planning for how you'll deal with that anger and resentment in a positive way. It's hard to think that far ahead, but when my husband returned the first time I was the happiest person on Earth and suddenly life made sense again. Then as time went by I would turn my cheek when he went to kiss it or I wouldn't say hi to him when he came home because I was still devastated thinking about his affair, especially when I found additional old evidence later on. I also didn't trust him and didn't treat him well, which made him think it was a mistake to return home, and everything collapsed which is why we're now facing divorce.

I hope you can avoid these issues. I'd do anything in the world to turn back the clock and avoid them in my marriage.

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Quote:
And there is one thing I've decided also. I want to go through with the D. Get a clean slate on things.


I don't usually give advice about selling houses, etc. But this mentality about getting a D, concerns me. I think I know what you mean by starting over with a clean slate. The board often encourages the LBS to accept their M is dead and think of starting over like a new MR. But, gee whiz.....you don't have to get a D to do it. Wouldn't it be cheaper to renew your vows, after you go to counseling and date for a period of time? I think getting a D at this time, could prevent her from getting the help she needs......or going through the work she should do. Holding out, before going back to living under the same roof as man & wife....would give more incentive, IMHO. However, if she resumes the A or gets OM#2, then filing for a D might be the thing to do.

Let me share my thoughts about wiping the slate clean and starting new. From my personal experience and from what I've gleaned from other stories with a WW, it's just not that simple......to wipe the slate clean and start over fresh. For the WW, it is a process. And some H's have feelings that hit after the W reconciles with him. So, seeing a D as a solution to wipe the slate clean and start a new M, does not guarantee old feelings and memories of the past won't haunt from time to time. It is wise to heal emotionally and equip yourself with new R skills.

When my DIL's labor pains became more intense, she announced that she had changed her mind and wanted to go back home. The doctor informed her she was having a baby before going home. smile I am reminded of this when I think of WW's having to go through the painful process that lies ahead. It would be nice if women could bypass the morning sickness and all the nine months preceding the birth of a child. It would be great not to experience the pain involved in giving birth........but it just isn't that way. However, the end results are so worth it, and that's the focus of a pregnancy. I see a WW's work much the same way, and that's why I harp to H's who want to make it too easy on their WW and rescue her from the hard labor. She won't likely produce the bundle of love he hoping, if he interrupts her labor process.

It is a hard process for the WW to get herself straightened out. And some WW's will want to back out when it gets hard. The WW got to the place of rebellion b/c she clung to old resentments and her disrespect for her H continued to grow. There's a lot of negative feelings she has to deal with. Pushing them down, or pretending they don't exsist, doesn't work. So for her, she can't just wipe the slate clean. Before she can clean the slate, she has to learn how to forgive her H for past issues, and how to let go of those old disappointments and grudges. Getting therapy to guide her through this inner work, should help her....but she may not process/change at the rate her H desires. Getting a D sounds like a pricey approach, and not even a solution to healing. But that's just my opinion.

For me, it took time to get the information I needed to deal with my feelings toward my H. I mean, I was coming to the board every day and it still took close to two years (after the A ended), and I was reading books about healing, infidelity, etc.......before I could turn lose of my anger and stop blaming my H about past issues. For women who are getting nothing to help heal and change their mindset, I don't think a D is going to do it for them wipe the slate and start over.....and expect a different outcome. They have to be willing to make the necessary changes, to have a loving and happy MR.........and they have to understand it starts with her changing her heart, just as much as the H has to change some of his ways. How will a D do that work that?

If your W's affair has just ended, she hasn't even gone through the withdrawals yet.m If she can make it through, without contacting the OM or starting another A.......then hopefully, IC/MC can help her.

If I were you, I would not make any quick decisions about the house or getting a D. One of your problems, Petri, has been to do an action that brought some desired response from her. So, just stay relaxed and Fonzie cool. No sudden decisions. Don't pour emotional pressure on her, and, don't pursue her!

((hugs))


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Sandi.

Thanks for that! I really don't know when the A ended. She told me that the man will not have any A with her anymore. And I'm starting to wonder if this is just throwing crumbs again. She couldn't meet my conditions so the house will stay for sale. Like I said she isn't out of WW land.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

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W is still in daily contact with OM. How does the withdrawl phase usually go and how long does it last?


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S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

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P,

So what you are saying is that she is still in an A.

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Originally Posted By: LH19
So what you are saying is that she is still in an A.


^^^Exactly^^^ Daily contact is not withdrawals, it's an affair.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

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LH & AS.

You are correct. It has turned from PA to some sort of EA apparrently. W just texted me that there will be no A with the OM. And that she seems to keep hurting everyone around her so she needs to be alone. And that she needs to get her head straight in IC to get the OM out of her head.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

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As I see it she didn't end the A. The OM did.

Just saying

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OM did end the A. I mentioned that earlier. OM got tired of the girls gone wild she's been doing again. That's what she told me. And he wanted more but she couldn't give that.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

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It won't start until after there has been absolutely no contact of any type. She will feel the need to contact him, see his picture.......anything........just as much as someone who suddenly stops smoking or some other addiction. She will get very restless, like an animal in a cage. She will be angry, and very moody. She'll become depressed. She goes through weeks of hard withdrawals. Then it may take months of leveling off. Every situation varies with how long it takes to get through. It's like trying to tell someone how long it will take to get through alcoholic withdrawals.

If she backslides and has the slightest contact with OM before she gets through the withdrawal stages, it places her back to square one, and she has to start over with withdrawals. It is essential that she stays away from him in the future. They can't work together or socialize together.

I think it was maybe a little over a year after I ended my A.....when I got a call at work from the OM. My mentor had warned me this might happened, but I was still caught by surprise, and was a little flustered. I am so glad my mentor had warned me, and explained the intentions of OM. He really fit the profile she had given me! Anyway, I let him know not to contact me ever again. Currently, I think I could see him and it would sicken me.......however, I am not going to test it. I have learned to affair proof my MR.....from my side of the street.


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Originally Posted By: petri
OM did end the A. I mentioned that earlier. OM got tired of the girls gone wild she's been doing again. That's what she told me. And he wanted more but she couldn't give that.


hello petri... as a former WW, in my opinion, you should not put anything on hold... she has not shared her desire to come back to you, to work on the M, to be a mother to her children... none of that... OM left her... her finances are in disarray... she wants time to get her head straight, yada, yada, yada... i used the "i need time, i need space to get my head straight, to get my life together, to figure out what i want," a few times before my H finally stopped biting... you are getting a lot of good advice here, and you have been open to it... that's great... i just felt the need to peek in at this point, where many LBSs lose their grip, and give in to the WW/WH too soon only to find out it was a false start... i gave a few of those to my H too...

mis dos centavos...

--artista

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Sandi.

Thank you again! I read on your reflections(maybe) that the OM can be not so attractive outwards. I've seen the OM and I really do wonder what the f@#* is W thinking?

Artista.

Nice of you to drop by! I know she is not out of WW land. But I think she is on her way out. Slowly. Very slowly. There are losses compiling slowly...and she is feeling them.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

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Sandi and artista.

How does this sound to you? W said that she now needs to be alone b/c she is only hurting everyone close to her. Pity points or reality?


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

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Originally Posted By: petri
Sandi and artista.

How does this sound to you? W said that she now needs to be alone b/c she is only hurting everyone close to her. Pity points or reality?


Standard, predictable, script and no where near returning to the marriage... I would say, "Adios Amiga... And if you need to be alone, then you are on your own... Really on your own."

Don't be her old stand-by, petri...

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Artista.

Thank you. That's what I thought.


Me:39 W:36
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D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
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P,

Warning 2x4 coming:

It's like you're a dog waiting around the table waiting for her to throw any scraps your way.

All your updates focus around her coming to reality and coming back to you and you jump at everything. Do you want her back because she is broke? Do you want her back because the OM dumped her?

Stop waiting around being plan B and start focusing on moving forward! You deserve better!

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Quote:
How does this sound to you? W said that she now needs to be alone b/c she is only hurting everyone close to her. Pity points or reality?


IMHO, it is a WW's way of telling the H that she does not want him pestering her. You need to stay out of her way and let her figure out what she has to do. If she comes to you and wants to know what it will take to reconcile......then you give her your terms. But you should not chase her down to tell her.

Just b/c the affair ends, does not mean her head is fixed! Understand?

She does not want you smothering her with your presence, text messaging, etc. Stand way back from her, and leave her alone.

I don't like it when the WW tries to sneak through the back door, but many WW's do. For example, her asking you to hold off selling the house. You see it as an implication she is considering reconciliation. She could be trying to ensure a backup plan, IDK. The OM has dropped her, and she doesn't want to be homeless.

Is this a sign of pity points or reality hitting? I would guess it's pity points, more than reality hitting. The only pity she feels at the moment is for herself.

I may be wrong, but I sense there is too much communication between you and WW. The fact the OM dumped her, is not a signal for the H to swoop in and rescue his WW. Allow her to experience the pain! Not b/c you want revenge. Not b/c she needs to know how it feels to be dumped. It's for her own good. It's part of the process......the reality.....to crush her fantasy and get her eyes opened and clear her head. If the H is rushing in to be her hero, he will likely be dumped by her again. B/c he has not allowed her the time (without him) to experience some of the reality that will kick her tail. The pain of reality has to convince her the fantasy was a stupid lie she fed herself.

If the H & W are physically separated when the affair ends, the H has to stay away and not push his W.......or else, her fantasy castle won't completely crumble, and she'll start to rebuild it. She won't end her GGW behavior, looking at other men, flirting or whatever gives her that thrill. So, it might take more reality hitting her smack in the face, before she finally gives up that lifestyle (if it has become a lifestyle with her).

This must be an agonizing time for the H who is hoping his WW will make the decision to do the right thing. He probably wants to influence her as much as possible. But I think he needs to stand back and let her make the decision without his influence. If she wants her family back again....,she will pursue it. But a lot of WW's will try to bypass any uncomfortable and painful things to get back with the H & family.......like admitting how awful she acted, and give a sincere apology to her H, and agree to do whatever is necessary to save the M. As I said, the mistake many H's make is rushing in and telling the WW everything she'll need to do to get him back.......before she even considers going back to him.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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on another note, WW was not upfront about her relationship with OM (surprise, surprise)... she said he was just a f*@k buddy, right? if that were the case, she would not be an emotional wreck after the break-up... she was emotionally invested in him... and honestly, you really do not know how long that had been going on...

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LH.

Moving forward. That's why I'm not going to put the house sale on hold. If I would do it, it would only benefit W. I wouldnnot benefit anything from it.

Sandi.

I understand your point. I just need to detach myself from her.

Artista.

I have wondered the exact same thing. If ending a 14 year R isn't enough to get you to counselling and a 4 month f@#€&buddy R is, I see a problem in this picture. Well she was the one that got dumbed in the A...


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

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Originally Posted By: petri
OM did end the A. I mentioned that earlier. OM got tired of the girls gone wild she's been doing again. That's what she told me. And he wanted more but she couldn't give that.


Don't believe anything she says.

If she had ended it then there is a possibility she may truly want back in to her M.

If he did then it's likely she wants back with OM and wants to create opportunity for that to happen or at least for something casual.

I am a cynic.

V


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V 64, WAW


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V.

It is good to be a cynic. I know it was OM that broke it. I know in the end that it was more to W than just a f@#&buddy thing. I know she wants him back.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

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Originally Posted By: petri
V.

It is good to be a cynic. I know it was OM that broke it. I know in the end that it was more to W than just a f@#&buddy thing. I know she wants him back.


Yes, you do.

But it wasn't to him, he may still mess with her head if that's his type. Some arse wipe pond scum, gutless wonders of OM like the sense of control. And they do that by hoovering and discarding.

If you have ever seen the film Lady Caroline Lamb you will get the idea.

V


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V 64, WAW


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I knownit's said that believe nothing they say. W said to me that it's weird that, when someone says it's all over and there's never going to happen anything anymore, he still texts and she texts back and vice versa.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

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Originally Posted By: petri
I knownit's said that believe nothing they say. W said to me that it's weird that, when someone says it's all over and there's never going to happen anything anymore, he still texts and she texts back and vice versa.


It's aOwer trip for this type of OM.

TOE RAG.

V


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V 64, WAW


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Petri,

You seem to have an awful amount of discussions with your W on the A and the OM. Is that healthy for you?


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P,

You have become her gay male girlfriend. Not attractive dude. The only contact you should have is regarding kids and finances.

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petri Offline OP
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Btrow.

No. It. Is. Not.

LH.

I really need to get my head out of my a@@ and focus.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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Head in arse is not the best look on a super dad whom only a fool would leave.

But it does show how bendy your body is.

V


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


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V.

I've always been quite flexible. Head in the arse is one of my specialities. laugh Thanks for making a real point in a fun way.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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Bump


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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What's the latest P?

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petri Offline OP
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Sorry guys I've been away! Things are as they used to be. The house is going for sale again. It was off because we(I) had to do massive work outside after winter. W hasn't finalized the D. She was going to. I told her that when the court order arrives we'll need to split our assets at that point(which are only debt). Well she naturally got furious because I was threathning her and she can't afford to pay half of the mortgage. And then she started the other game...how she had to move under a bridge, lose her business, how her parents would have to pay for her debts, what would it do to kids. The usual. And yes the same OM is still in the picture. I've kept NC going. Only replying if kids are involved. So kinda stuck in Limboland...trying to get out.

Good to be back!


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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Oh! And her stories about our marriage and what I've done are melting. Even her best friend isn't buying them anymore.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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Good to hear from you.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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A little update. I got papers from court. W finalized the divorce. She did inform me about it two weeks ago, at 3 am, drunk and with half hour spew following it. The usual you never this, you always that, I did everything for us, oh how I loved you then...

Question for all. W still keeps sending me pics/texts about what she is doing with the kids. Is she still temp checking? After all this?


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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Hi petri, good to hear from you.

Just as everybody says, it doesn´t end till it ends. How are you doing?


WW H(me): 53
W: 48
T: 27 M: 22
S: 18
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Petri, I was wondering what happened to you! I had been following your thread. For a while your wife wanted to reconcile. I guess she didn't pull through. It's too bad to hear about the divorce papers but if she's still sending you pictures and taking the time to blame you for everything you did wrong then it sounds like there's still unfinished business. I hope you and your wife can reconcile somehow, even if you stay divorced, for the sake of your kids. How are you coping with all this? Is the divorce a relief or do you still wish to fix things with your wife?

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Quote
W still keeps sending me pics/texts about what she is doing with the kids. Is she still temp checking? After all this?


Who knows. If you don't know why she is doing it likely none of us will either. Did you at one point accuse her of being a bad mom? Maybe she is trying to prove to you (and herself) that she isn't. Or maybe it is temp checking, to see how you respond. Or maybe she is sadist and just enjoys inflicting pain on you.

Trying to understand the WAS is a fool's game. Just don't respond to them unless there is a direct question, and then only with as few words as possible. Answer yes or no questions with yes or no.


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Neffer.
I'm doing quite fine. We still have our house to sell and assets to divide(this W doesn't want to do). She even asked if I could take the house and we would see in a couple of years where we stand. But no way I will go with that.

Nicole.
Yeah...the reconcile possibility part lasted for less than a week. She went back to the OM. She had everything figured out in less than a week. Even before she took one therapy session. And yes she probably does have a lot of unfinished business. She's drinking again every weekend. Even when she's with the kids. I am doing my best to cope. At the moment I would be ready to reconcile. But that would depend on how she would present herself with that.

Steve.
I guess everyone's guess is as good as mine. Who knows and actually who cares. She even wanted me to go to her sister's son's confirmation party a month ago...


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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Petri, your wife doesn't sound emotionally stable at all. She can't possibly be that happy. People don't drink that heavily when they're happy with their lives, right? I hope she can figure out her own issues. Sounds like she sent off the divorce papers one day on a whim when she was feeling bad but other days when she's good she's happy to send you pictures and invite you to family parties. That other man has to get out of the picture before she can clear her head or either of you could consider reconciling though. And once a divorce is final there's no obligation on either side to do anything anymore but it would be great if someday you two could work things out.

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Nicole.
She informed me about finalizing the divorce on Sunday 3am drunk. She knew I was at this party cruise which she wanted to attend. Her best friend(which I've known for over 20 years) was there and she had posted a pic in which I was in. That exploded everything. So finalizing the D was merely a reaction to this. She's not emotionally stable. She was in therapy and she told me that is the only thing that is keeping her sane. And her therapist retired early June so her therapy stopped. Is she happy? On the surface yes, maybe. Is that the true reality? I doubt. But this is her decision. It's not for me to lift her up.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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I've been trying to contact XW regarding schedule to make a new contract with real estate agent. No reply what so ever. Not a single word. She was the one who said that let's handle this in a civil way for the sake of both's mental health. I'm not seeing this as civil at all.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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There is nothing new in that behavior petri. Just stay calm for your own health. You can only control what you control...

Stay strong man, time is endless.


WW H(me): 53
W: 48
T: 27 M: 22
S: 18
Piecing since 03/2016
Saw the light in the storm
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Yeah. Well we've read a lot from this forum that are straight from a sci-fi alien abduction movie. Just got to be strong and let these things slide. It's hard but it will be worth it.

Thanks Neff. Much appreciated.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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There is one thing I am happy for. XW is in contact with the kids when it's not her week with them. There has been long times when she didn't do that. Felt like she put her motherhood on hold for a week.

On tuesday me and my daughter went to the beach. XW was there alone. D7 went to say hi and naturally I followed. After saying hi D7 asked me "should we go there?" and pointed further from her mom. I kinda felt sorry for XW. She stayed there alone and me and D7 went swimming. I saw her leaving and I have to be honest, I was heartbroken. She walked away like a person with a ton of bricks on her shoulders. Just a bit earlier she came by to say bye to D7 and she was all smiles and happyhappyjoyjoy.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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How can I stop giving a *beep* about XW's drinking? I still do care for her and I hate to see her doing this to herself(and our kids). She's pulling back to back drinking days on back to back weekends. Why am I the only person to see that she has a problem?


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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XW's BFF called me. She had been to a music festival with her husband. They are separated also and are trying to piece things together. Well...XW had started spewing her BFF for going out with her husband. This is all new. She stopped spewing about three weeks ago at me and has now targeted her BFF. Oh this stupidity. She's on her nice way to alienate her closest people. Way to go!


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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Petri, maybe your wife was drunk when she was doing that and didn't even realize what she was saying. Perhaps her BFF could encourage her to reduce her drinking. I know in Finland alcohol is such a big part of the culture and people can barely socialize without it but it sounds like your wife might be going overboard. Anyway that's too bad your wife isn't supportive of her friend reconciling with her husband. It seems like your wife can't keep going this way forever. She snapped back to reality for a short time when she was sorry and wanted to reconcile. I bet at some point that'll happen again.

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Nicole, she was drunk. And yes in Finland alcohol is sadly a big part of the culture, not in a civil way. XW's mom is an alcoholic, mom's parents were alcoholics. It's their way of coping, to run away. Hopefully she'll come to a realization that this is not good for her and sees that this is about her. She is the one who is hurting not that everyone else is to blame for what is going on with her.


Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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And you can´t control that petri. As hard as it is...

Just protect yourself and your kids. Be the lighthouse.


WW H(me): 53
W: 48
T: 27 M: 22
S: 18
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Your sitch stinks, petri. I don't know how much you can do.

How would your XW see your offers to help her? What can you do?

I hope you're getting along OK, working on yourself, and taking care of your family.


H 34
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BD 3/12/18
Divorce Busted Spring 19

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Quote
and naturally I followed.


Imagine for a moment that you did that which was NOT natural, and you didn't go with D? Imagine what an impact that could have made on your XW? DBing is about doing that which is NOT natural. That is what 180s are about. Naturally you would beg, plead and reason with them on BD. DBing says it is better NOT to do that.

Anyway, not really saying this to chastise you as much as I am for any newbies that might be reading.


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Please start a new thread. You have reached the 100 posting/reply limit for this thread. Thanks!


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The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Me:39 W:36
S:12 D:9
T:14 M:11
Separation:sep. 1 2017
D filed oct. 2017
D finalized july 2018
OM confirmed feb 2018
D finalized July 2018

The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
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