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Originally Posted By: Vanilla
Plus a work dynamic with a subordinate can set him up for accusations of sexual harassment. In these circumstances he may lose his job and find it impossible to get a reference. There is no doubt that colleagues at work will know too, an open secret. Employers don't condone this type of stuff as it opens floodgates. Weinstein and all that.....V


I have been telling him that summer! The way he seems something as innocent, other people around him won't. They'll see the favoritism and start assuming. This was just something else I was trying to get him to see. He saw a little bit of light at one point, when another sub-ordinate made an off the cuff comment. He had a conversation with her to keep things professional, but clearly they went back on it. Not as much as in the summer, but still not professional.


Originally Posted By: Vanilla
I am going to state for the record I don't believe in MLC, it isn't in the DSM as a disorder. It appears to be a particular set of entitled behaviours. These behaviours disrespect you and your M. V


I totally agree with this as well. I feel like a MLC is just an excuse for privileged people that have too much and don't know what else to do. Who think that things should be absolutely perfect for them and they don't have to work to get what they want.

I read up on gaslighting last night.. and some aspects definitely sound like him. I know the guilt of everything is too much to bear and he tries to put it all on me. I've called him out for this many times while fighting. Why am I crazy, but he's the one saying he's not sure what he wants?

update:

After telling him I'm going away for the weekend, he was fine with it and pretended like I asked him. I said no, I was booking it whether you agreed or not.

On the way home from work, he got a call from OW to tell him some confidential work gossip. The director was being let go, and the person that was working on his package told a few people. She thought it was her duty to report it to him. He told me the reason for her call, and I asked how that was something that needed to be discussed and couldn't wait for tomorrow? why did she need to be the one to tell him? He said he appreciated the call. But I asked how it helped him, he said it didn't. So i said you're ok with your employee breaking company policy and gossiping about someone being laid off, when the person doesn't even know. He continued to defend her. This kind of behaviour is what upsets the most. You know she did something wrong, but you're defending her to me... Which if it was just an employee wouldn't even make sense, who cares what my opinion is of her? He said that at his old job he would tell his boss all kinds of info. I said its not the same. He said yes it is, I was a subordinate and informed my boss. She's a subordinate informing me. I said you were a man that had a friendly relationship with his male boss. She is a girl that has a friendly relationship with her married male boss. NOT THE SAME. He tried to fight me on it again, so I said, sorry She is a girl that has a friendly relationship with her married male boss who has already stepped over the line and knows this relationship has negatively affected his M and W. He stopped talking.

The next morning I left for work separately, and then freaked out a bit during work with some TM's. He just responded back that we will talk later.

After work, we met up and he asked if I wanted to go for dinner.. all super nice. and I said no, that if he's going to continue this he needs to leave tonight. He told me that he spoke with the OW first thing that morning about her phone call, how it wasn't appropriate to call him about gossip, and after work. That they're not friends and he's her boss and she shouldn't be telling him sensitive information like that if it's not for her to share. I'm glad he stood up for himself and set the record straight, but since this was their third conversation on professional in less than 4 months, I said he should take it a step further. He refused. So i said he's protecting her again and I don't know why, if he wants to protect her he can leave. Later on he showed me an email he had just sent to her reiterating what they spoke about that morning and copying his boss. At least it's written and on record now, and his boss is aware of the situation.

After that I was able to calm down. It was weird but my anxiety that had been building the last 2 weeks just fell away. Maybe he was trying. I said that was the right thing to do and that's how things should always be with her, and he needs to leave her out of this M if he wants it to work.

The rest of the night was quiet, and this definitely helped me relax and focus on DB. On the way into work I talked about how I was going out for dessert at lunch. He asked who I was going with, and I said I would see who could go at work, but I was going anyways. He tells me that he has some time and can come with. So I said ok.

Lets hope I can stay on top.

I can definitely see he is purposefully trying to be stubborn. He doesn't want to listen to what I have to say, and tries to do the opposite of what I was saying I wanted. I feel like he's trying to assert his ground, but I'm not going to let that happen if it causes me stress and negatively affects our marriage. I think this definitely has to do with his entitlement and thinking he should be making the calls.

I'm going to stick to the making plans without him bit, and see how things go... That kind of seems to make him stop and think for a little bit.

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That's good.

You stated your boundary and were prepared to enforce it.

That's excellent, you are learning fast.

You may get help from reading Al Turtle on boundaries, it was a big eye opener to me and I got it for the very first time ever!

Duh!

The technique of getting on with your life is called LRT, it's in MWD book. I hope you have DR on your reading list. Seems good to me.

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SarahW Offline OP
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Definitely will have to get DR and the book on boundaries.

Quick update:
I returned from my weekend away and he almost immediately started talking about things that happened at his work... even though we’ve discussed that I don’t want to hear about his work. Things seemed a little strained, and even more so when we got home and I could see the house and cats were not really taken care of... the cats didn’t have any water, but he swore he filled it that morning.. and he said he cleaned up on Saturday, but didn’t mop.. so you could see foot and paw prints all over the floors.
I said I didn’t want to fight, but said the house was dirty and was a little annoyed. He got super defensive and said it was my turn to clean, but I had left. So I started to clean... which annoyed him because he had “already done it”. I just said I don’t want to spend the work week living like this, so I’ll clean it since it was my turn.
He apologized for his reaction and said he just wanted things to be good and that he had missed me. I just said if he wanted things to be good he didn’t have to get so defensive.
The next few days were good. No other issues. He asked to go out for lunch yesterday, but I was busy so said no. He mentioned about going on a date on Friday, but I won’t get my hopes up.
He’s been quiet about the OW so this morning I asked how their conversations were. He said they were fine. So I asked to see some emails/chats. He stared at me for like a minute before pulling out his phone and showing me some. For the most part he would initiate about work, and she would either send him the file or answer his question. Which was a relief. He said he wasn’t screwing this up, and then went to the car. In the car I said it was good, and that I was glad she was learning her lesson. He got a bit defensive of this..... and I said to stop. That him defending her was an issue. So he said he wasn’t. He said things had been fine and I didn’t need to bring her up or make passive aggressive comments. I was taken aback and said that I wasn’t making passive aggressive comments, and that he couldn’t just hide her and pretend like this didn’t affect our marriage. He said he’s not hiding anything, and that it’s something I need to get over. I said why would I get over it if I’m still worried and still in the middle of it? That I hadn’t forgiven him for anything yet and that he’s still expected to be open and honest about it, especially if he wants me to “get over it”. I told him he’s just blaming me for his own guilt and actions and that he needs to stop. He said he doesn’t know why I start these fights... I said I was asking a question, you’re the one who gets defensive and causes a fight. He said he’ll try to not get defensive.. and that he’s sorry, and just wants things to be good.
We left it at that.. I’m going to see a counsellor tonight to talk about things and I think it irritates him that I’m going to say my side and not take all the blame that he’s trying to push onto me.

We’ll see how things go...

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Hi sara,

This is great! Your boundaries are really resonable regarding that woman at work. And your husband is showing that he respects them. Which is good.

Why is it that you do not want to talk to him about his work? I think it was nice of him to want to communicate and share with you, but it seems that you shut him down?

He seems to be willing to compromise for you. What are some changes you can make to meet his needs better? He is on the defensive but why? What would his valid complaints about you be?

Obviously your marriage is vulnerable right now. What can you do on your end?


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Al Turtle is free! If you Google, it's a resource for teenagers and is a paper. I loved it.

You seem a bit tit for tat in some exchanges. You can just cut it short and say "my views haven't changed, you know them" and then change the subject.

Otherwise I think you are doing so well.

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Originally Posted By: JujuB
Why is it that you do not want to talk to him about his work? I think it was nice of him to want to communicate and share with you, but it seems that you shut him down?


I was basically his sounding board for his issues at work. He would come home angry and then tell me all he problems he was having, and it wouldn’t matter if I didn’t say anything or if I offered a suggestion, his irritation would turn on me. When I had issues at work and wanted to talk with him, he wouldn’t listen. This issue was brought up in couples counselling, and he was told that he needs to stop bringing the negative feelings from work home, and he needs to stop airing them out to me, especially while he’s telling me work is more important than me. It wasn’t helping our relationship to hear all the negatives about work, and then hear how it’s more of a priority than I am.
I know his mindset may have changed with that... but since his work place is already a sore topic for me I would prefer to not hear anything about it. There are some times when I can listen to it... but most times I get anxious listening to him, and it still irritates me that he ever even thought work was more important than his wife.

Originally Posted By: JujuB
He seems to be willing to compromise for you. What are some changes you can make to meet his needs better? He is on the defensive but why? What would his valid complaints about you be?


He definitely feels defensive.. and I think it’s because I can’t wrap my head around everything that has happened. He’s literally absolved himself of any wrongdoing over the last 9 months. So if something comes up that relates to anything during that time, he feels like I’m attacking me and bringing up the past. He doesn’t always remember that he’s the one that hurt me.. and that he needs to own it and work/address things. Not defend his actions.

His biggest issue with me is the “nagging” and bringing up the past. It doesn’t feel like the past for me because I’m still going through it. I still worry everyday. And just because he’s behaving now doesn’t mean that I shouldn’t fear when he won’t be. Especially since he spends more time at work and close to the OW than he does at home or with me. I get it, he has to work and he has to work with her... but he doesn’t understand why that bothers me.
As for the nagging, I’m actually really trying not to say anything. I made a schedule of things that need to be done around the house and we rotate each week. However he hasn’t been keeping up his end. It’s all written down so he knows what he needs to do. So I try not to say Anything, but it’s irrtating to watch him know what he has to do at work and do it, but know what he has to do at home and not do it.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to deal with this?

I’m in the middle of Al Turtles Boundaries for couples article. Definitely worth the read.

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Today everything fell apart. Yesterday he told me about how he was having pizza for work since it was "pi day" and how the sales and facilities team were going to order pizza for the whole office. I asked if was a free for all, and if they were just going to put it all in the lunch room so he would have to rush to get a slice. and he said "I hope not, its going on my company credit card". I thought that was weird.. because if sales was putting it on, why wouldn't it go on theres? I didn't say this, and just said well have fun.

At 12:30pm today I see he's at a pizza place. The company was promoting the day and had videos of him standing in line.. with the OW and 2 other women. I sent a TM saying "thought you were ordering in?" I also called him, and he didn't answer. When He finally responded to my TM he said that it fell through when people realized they had to go pick up the deal. So only him and the 3 other people from his department went. He said he was going to tell me later. I sent him the pictures of him and the OW and asked why he didn't back out. Especially when other people did, and he knows were having issues, and he said he wouldn't go out for lunch with her anymore. he said because he wanted to. Obviously this didn't sit well with me.

I told him if he can't respect our relationship, my feelings, and his own promises, then what was the point? I told him I was messaging the OW. He asked me not to, said he was the moron and it was his fault. Oh well. I messaged her. I said I don't care how innocent she thinks it is, it's not innocent on his end and her conversations and friendliness have been an issue for us and that I know thats not her problem, but I'm asking you to stop treating him like a friend and start treating him like a boss.

She responded, "sorry for any inconvenience, but I'm not really sure what that means. hope you guys will be ok, have a nice day". So I replied and said its simple. Stop going out to lunch with him, stop talking about your personal life, stop sending him stupid messages at work. stop being friendly with my husband.

About half an hour later she asks if I want to go for a coffee... I was like, does he know you're asking to meet me. and she said no. So I met up with her.

Basically she said she knows things weren't the most professional or appropriate between them, especially during the summer. But that was so long ago now, and she can't remember everything. She said she didn't want to get involved in our relationship, but she wanted to discuss some of the things I was saying. She says she doesn't invite him out for lunch, he invited himself that day. That 7 people were all gonna go get pizza (remember he said the whole office was ordering in?!) but then 3 backed out so only the 4 of them went. I told her the lie he told me... and she was like "oh". She said she didn't see why it was an issue going out for lunch with him and other people. Especially when he goes out for dinners and lunches with another girl that use to work there (I know she's over exaggerating this because I knew he had gone out twice since the girl had found a new job 4 months ago, and it was only because she wanted him to come work at her new company). So I said, I know his dealings with that girl. He doesn't hide anything about her. But with you, he chooses to hide and lie. I had to explain this to her like 3 times. She was surprised at the level of detail I knew about their conversations and relationship. Which threw her off as she was obviously trying to downplay it. In the end, she said she would try to stop being friendly with him. But said if a group of people were going out for lunch, she wasn't going to not include him, and he could make his own choices if he wanted to go or not.

After work, H tries to act like nothing is wrong. Immediately sets me off. He sticks to his lie about the office plans falling through. And says he knows he shouldn't have gone when other people were backing out, but he wanted pizza and wanted to go. So I tell him she asked to meet me. He didn't believe it. So I showed him her TM asking to meet. He didn't know what to say. Then I told him the story she told me about their Pizza day.. and he was like "uh, I can't recall exactly what was said" and that 2 of 3 people that backed out were from sales and facilities... But thats not the whole office. there were more people from his department organizing it than there was from his lie!

He wanted to know more about what she said to me. I told him how she called him out about his meeting up with an old co-worker. She also called him a co-worker, and I had to be like no he's your boss. And that she basically admitted to both of them being inappropriate during the summer, but that she would try to not be friendly anymore with him. He was shocked that she had agreed to the summer issues and that she was saying he was going out for dinners with the old co-worker.. asked if he needs to have a conversation with her and HR now.. I was like I don't know. She asked me to meet up, obviously she had stuff to say. But if had done nothing then he shouldn't feel guilty. I also said that she could have told him she met with me, but she chose not to. so he can read into that as he likes.

I told him to leave. He said he had no where to go. I said he's clearly making the choices he wants to make and not considering me at all. Not to mention his lie to cover it up. I said he could go to my sisters or his moms, and even asked my sister to let him stay at her place. (I had told her what happened throughout the day). He apologized, and tried to get me to change my mind. I said you made the choice. You said you wouldn't do something, and less than a week later you're doing it again. Full well knowing that you're hurting me.

So this is where things stand now. I really don't know how we can come back from this. This lying was just too much... How many times am I suppose to go through the same thing? and then have him expect me to feel sorry for him!

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So as I see it. He is not in a PA with this POW. But actually POW isn't very interested? There have been other POW in the past?

He appears to have had two EA and is denial? He is lying to you but not himself?

The lies are more important to you than the actual EA?

Just trying to clarify.....

I am sorry you went through this although you now have your INTEL.

This is a big truth dart.

What do you want to happen?

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There was a POW before we were married, about 4 years into our relationship. So this is why I could see all the signs leading up to another.

I think it’s the same EA.. but the OW is trying to get me to target someone else. I’m not sure what her tactic was by throwing him under the bus... maybe because she knew I would get mad at him.

The lies are definitely more important than an EA... I can already see he’s having an EA with this POW even if he doesn’t want to admit it to himself. The fact that he said he was working on things, would cut her out, and made promises as to how he will move on.. and then planned a lie to spend time with her.. this has just erased all my trust in him completely.

I’ve decided that I can longer live like this. I can’t trust what he says. I’ve told him that I need to see action from him that proves he is in this 100%, or he needs to leave and I need to move on. It’s not fair he keeps bringing her back into our lives when he says he wouldn’t.

Not sure when we will speak. He wanted to talk in person yesterday but I couldn’t. I already know he’s just going to say I have to trust him and that it was just a mistake. But I can’t see how it was a mistake if he had a whole day to plan and lie and follow through it.

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Originally Posted By: SarahW
There was a POW before we were married, about 4 years into our relationship. So this is why I could see all the signs leading up to another.


Sorry, should clarify, there was a confirmed PA with a OW 4 years into the start of our relationship. It was at work, his was friendly with a female coworker, and one day it turned physical. This is my fear with the current situation. It’s the same in that he treats this female coworker differently than the others. And the fact that he creates lies and deletes her messages... but doesn’t for other female coworkers...

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