Long-time lurker, first time poster here. Got finally inspiration to write my story at least to vent a bit and hopefully also to be able to give & get some peer support First time I hit the DB community few months ago, but last days I have been reading your stories very intensively. The good spirit and all personal experiences have encouraged me deeply I am not here alone. What a great and wise people you have here!
Me and my wife got married at 2003, both at the age of 24. I have to say looking back these almost 15 years, they have gone fast! There has been some unbelievably beautiful moments, such as birth of our son and daughter and also great memories with W, but also unfortunately many issues and resentment. Despite of the problems we had, I was committed to our marriage and had a dream of us growing old together and being a family until the end. Hence, it was The biggest disappointment in my life to understand that my W do not feel the same way anymore and wants to continue her journey alone.
I should have seen it coming though, I got all the warning signs over the years but I did not just believe she would really leave. That being one of my biggest mistakes over the years taken her for granted. I have actually made a long list of my mistakes during our marriage that has driven us to this point: I did not made her feel loved & appreciated, I lacked in emotional connection, neglected her feelings and was not comfortable being physically near to start with. Maybe someone of you thinks I deserve to be alone after being such of a husband and honestly, I have blamed myself to the level of torture. However, I have tried to practice forgiveness towards myself. And even I understand that my wife had a part to play in our marriage as well (I did not feel accepted and respected either), I have decided not to focus to any of her faults but to take 100% responsibility of my own actions. I do not believe anymore the classical 50%/50% setup, but rather take a model from a soccer team if they want to win: you canīt score if the other team has the ball you need to take 100% responsibility of your own game. As I have been trying to understand the pattern where we went wrong in the first place, I have come across with the term cycle of conflict, which as I understand is quite common root-cause in many martial problems. Looking back, I see this pattern repeating itself in our communication: W addressed some concern of our marriage which I took as complaint and pulled myself back. When I withdrew myself, W was more concerned of our marriage and drew back even more. Vicious cycle was in place to contaminate the relationship. Regrettably I never understood the cycle of conflict as a potential root-cause, nor did I understand how it supposedly led to the neglecting I described above. In my eyes we only argued of everyday problems but obviously the reasons were deeper. Not even marriage counselling ever focused to any cause, it was only about trying to solve effects, i.e. who said what and how . Anyways, since I wanted our marriage to work better, I tried to implement the changes I thought she wanted me to do based in her feedback --> since I travelled a lot for work when kids were small so I cut the time with friends to zero to maximise time home (mistake), or since she felt that our life spins around me I started let her to initiate almost everything in our daily life (mistake), and so on.
Nothing helped in making us functioning as a loving team, so my wife decided to mentally check-out from marriage at the summer 2016. We still tried to figure things out until summer 2017 when I really understood that she is truly leaving. Getting this felt like nightmare and I admit I did everything wrong in the beginning (1-2 months of sexy clinging). Finally at July/August 2017 I started my process of letting go and GALling meeting friends, going to gym etc. Detaching is not easy though and I truly wish that we could reconcile, although Iīm prepared to continue my adventure alone and as a better man. As of Jan 2018 we rented an apartment where we alternate every other week with W so that kids could stay at their home. We also started emotionally focused therapy 1/week and even my hopes are high it could enable us to attach emotionally, I afraid there is too much damage done for a fresh start.
ATM the biggest challenge in DBing for me is to adjust the level of contact. Since she feels that she needs space I obviously do not want to smother her, but on the other hand cause she felt neglected in the marriage Iīm afraid that going too much dark will send the wrong message as well. I have explained to her that Iīm very committed for a new beginning, but also want to let her feel how her life would feel without me.
Iīm sorry for a meandering post. Wanted to include enough background what brought me here - still I feel I only could scratch the surface
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support). Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down. Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL). DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
It has been one of my biggest fears to find out my wife would have an PA(or EA) - only an idea of my wife with OM feels just devastating. My W always adjured me to immediately tell her if I would have any kind of A (never had), since not knowing would have been so humiliating for her. Therefore I think it makes it even more disrespectful if she does something behind my back knowing how humiliating that would feel for me.
Of course I have suspected an A during our martial problems (especially after last summer), but when I have asked if she has an OM she naturally denied. Until this morning I was inclined to believe that, since we moved back to our home country from work assignment just recently and once we were at the host country, she did not have that big social network and possibilities to cheat. And know when we are back home after 3.5 years abroad, feels like she havenīt had the time to develop A just this fast. Furthermore she has always said(until just recently) that she needs emotional connection for sex, itīs hard for me to think she has that created with anyone at back home just yet. Or maybe WW does not need the emotional connection for sex with OM, what do you think?
Before what I found this morning my wife had these classical WAW/WW/MLC symptoms: -Parties a lot more with younger co-workers or divorced friends -Plastic surgery -Tattoo below breasts -paying more attention to dressing/make-up -Works out intensively -Rebellious action/thoughts -lotīs at SoMe -protecting phone
We still get intimate (I initiate) once on a while (once a month?) when we have our date nights. Week ago we had date and were intimate and AFTER ML my wife mentioned she bought condoms since she didnīt have any other birth control ATM. I thought this was odd, since she never bought them before, but did not say anything. But still that made me thinking more the possibility of an A. So this morning I snooped a bit and found some sex toys from W closet, like BDSM collar and coc* ring!! Everything inside me turned upside down and my hands started shaking. I was about to call my W right away and confront her. BUT - she could say that she bought them for us (for date night) and I do not have other evidence. everything seemed used though, and definitely not by me.... Also, W NEVER bought anything like that in our M, actually we had VERY sex starved MR. That aspect actually hurts me even more if possible - that my W pushed me away for almost 15 years(due to lacking emotional connection), but then all of a sudden she would start to buy sex toys for extra martial relationship. Have anyone else experienced this?
What do you think, should I confront W with this evidence or wait for more? I think I could try to find the condoms and see if they are used, but most likely donīt find them... If I ask, guess W denies everything. Iīm pretty sure she has not told anyone of her friends either, so no benefit in asking them either. Would you recommend me to snoop more or wait that it comes up?
This is most hurtful thing ever happened if itīs true, might hurt even more that the fact my wants to leave...
I would be very thankful of any thoughts or similar experiences!
Last edited by Cadet; 02/25/1802:53 AM. Reason: threads merged
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka that I totally agree with.
Originally Posted By: Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Hopefully you have read my first post and the homework.
Thanks, I have read first post and homework, lots of helpful threads.
What I forgot to mention in first post in this thread is that all these toys I found were in a same small bag that my W has had with her recently. Nothing in packages but opened and seems like also used. Guess itīs quite uncommon to use these kind of equipements alone, huoh...
I feel quite numb, and as mentioned in last post, my W never seemed interested in these kind of activities in marriage, she just wanted to feel emotionally connected when intimate in marriage.
Cadet, Could you please change thread name to "Suspect PA - should I confront with this evidence?" or then position post #2779821 in itīs own thread as I intended in the beginning?
Cadet, Could you please change thread name to "Suspect PA - should I confront with this evidence?" or then position post #2779821 in itīs own thread as I intended in the beginning?
Hi GettinT, glad you finally decided to tell your story. Sadly, too many M's suffer from cycles of conflict. If the couple cannot get the help they need in correcting it, they will live together in misery, or they S/D. First, I want to tell you that your M can be saved. Yes, it will be very challenging, and there appears to be some very serious issues with your W. However, it is possible to change yourself, thus changing your influence on the M status.
I think you are off to a good start by completely owning your part of the breakdown in the MR. I want to also add something else. You can only take responsibility for your part. Many nice guys want to make things right by accepting responsibility for themselves.....plus responsibility for the W's part. It's similar to the H who knows his W is angry at him, and he has no clue as to what it's about. But what does he do? He apologizes to her. He doesn't even know what he's apologizing for, but he just wants peace between them again. Unfortunately, many nice-guy H's will take 100% responsibility for the breakdown in their MR......b/c in the back of their mind, they think it will promote reconciliation of he tells her everything was his fault. Truth is that it doesn't help.......the situation, or her, unless she was 100% blameless. In most cases, she isn't completely blameless.
I think it is healthy in choosing not to focus on your W's faults, just as long as you aren't trying to take responsibility for her bad decisions/actions. For now I'll just say that it is very important that the wayward W takes responsibility for her part, or she will forever blame her H for everything wrong in the M.....and she will hold on to past grievances. Reconciliation of the hearts won't happen as long as she can put all the blame on him and thinks she is blameless. The cycles of conflict will continue, b/c as long as she is not required to take responsibility for herself.......her heart will remain hardened and closed to her H. She must reach the point where (1) she takes ownership for her wayward mindset and her actions; (2) feels remorse for what she has done; (3) is able to let go of all the resentment of issues in the past; (4) is able to forgive you; (5) and, humbly asks for your forgiveness. She is probably a long way from any of those 5 things for a while. It will take time for her to reach that place, just as it's going to take time for you to make lasting changes in yourself.
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I have actually made a long list of my mistakes during our marriage that has driven us to this point: I did not made her feel loved & appreciated, I lacked in emotional connection, neglected her feelings and was not comfortable being physically near to start with
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Okay, it's good that you are able to see your own mistakes. Can you set goals that will help you change, and not repeat the same same mistakes? Just as an example, would seeing an IC help to figure out why you lacked in emotional connection, and why you felt uncomfortable being physically near her? Maybe you could take a class/course in how to communicate with women......mainly a wife. Research what women need the most in a MR. Read books about the difference in the male and female makeup (very interesting and helpful). Learn about the basic love languages everyone has, and how to speak in her LL. See what I mean?
Everyone has emotional needs. Not knowing exactly what her EN are, could hinder doing anything to fill them, in all likelihood. You can google something like....."what are the wife's emotional needs", and you would probably get basic information, at least. Most women have close to the same basic EN. As a man learns more about his W as an individual, he should learn her unique EN that come from her personal psyche. He should know personal issues such as....if she has body image issues; experiences low self-esteem, experienced abandonment or neglect from a parent; etc. IMHO, when EN are met by the spouse, and LL are spoken from the spouse.......that MR is going to have one happy spouse, at least. When it's a two-way street.....you've practically got heaven! But, let's keep it real, it is not always as simple as it may sound, b/c people in relationships are more complexed.
When either spouse goes for years without their EN being met in the MR, they are stand to be more vulnerable to inappropriate influences. I talk about the WW b/c that is what I have observed and understand the most. Her wayward mindset starts with resentment, and then, disrespect. She eventually rebels. Her actions are motivated by total selfishness. Everything is about her! If she does not benefit in some way......she's not on board. Maybe your W was wayward before you M her, IDK. I think in most cases, it comes later when she has experienced unmet EN, in some cases unmet physical needs, has unresolved past issues with her H, unforgivness, etc. She pushes this stuff down in her heart and it plants seeds of resentment toward her H. It isn't long until disrespect is hand in hand with the resentment. Then it begins to show in her words, her attitude, facial expressions, and behavior. When she goes into full rebellion against her H and MR..........she often behaves like Girls Gone Wild. She may jump from one man to another. She has become someone her H no longer recognizes. She is not the same girl that he married.
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Until this morning I was inclined to believe that, since we moved back to our home country from work assignment just recently and once we were at the host country, she did not have that big social network and possibilities to cheat. And know when we are back home after 3.5 years abroad, feels like she havenīt had the time to develop A just this fast.
As long as there are Internet apps, it will be easy, and fast, to enter into an EA/PA. I'm not talking about Hollywood's movie version of "An Affair to Remember". I'm talking about what we are seeing in our society of phone apps and quick access to anyone in the world.......with face to face (maybe not skin on skin) camera action. Unlike when a couple meets and start dating and building a loving relationship and reach the point they are ready to commit to a MR, or even a long term relationship.........an affair stems mostly from lust, and emotional stimulation. When one or both affair partners are M to other people, they usually are looking for something that was missing in the MR (and that's giving them too much credit). The affair partners usually do not wait to build a relationship, they settle for a pseudo relationsip, at best. They just go straight for the thrill. The thrill comes b/c it is taboo. When a person is M, it is inappropriate to have sex talks, send naked photos, or text all hours into the night with anyone other than the spouse. People these days cover the affair, when they are suspected, and claim to be "just friends". (That's just a few highlights). It's the "secret" and the sense of "naughtiness" that becomes intoxicating. Affairs are very addictive. It's not always the affair partner that is addictive.....it's the thrill. That's why when one affair partner falls by the wayside, another affair partner is found very quickly.
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We still get intimate (I initiate) once on a while (once a month?) when we have our date nights. Week ago we had date and were intimate and AFTER ML my wife mentioned she bought condoms since she didnīt have any other birth control ATM.
That's more considerate than what is usually reported about WW's in an A. Instead of you finding it odd, b/c she has never done it in the past.......I suggest you stop trusting her and realize you put yourself at risk every time you have unprotected sex with her. She has signs of being in an A. Whether or not they are having a PA.....IDK, but it appears very suspicious. I think you need to protect yourself, as though she is in a PA.
Would a PA be a deal breaker for you? Would you continue being intimate with her? Would it make any difference if you knew it was an EA? You need to know your own feelings, before you start trying to figure out what actions to take.
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So this morning I snooped a bit and found some sex toys from W closet, like BDSM collar and coc* ring!! Everything inside me turned upside down and my hands started shaking. I was about to call my W right away and confront her. BUT - she could say that she bought them for us (for date night) and I do not have other evidence.
Okay, let me get this straight. You are "nesting", have date nights and have sex about once a month. You are seeing all these "signs" that tell your gut something is up. Then you find his/her sex toys hidden in her closet.......(in the nesting place?).... And you aren't sure if you should confront her b/c you don't have other evidence, and she would probably lie about the whole thing.
Well, here's the thing. You are not clear about the status of your relationship. On one hand, the two of you play like a separated couple who are nesting so their kids can stay in the family home. But on the other hand, you are sleeping together. So, do you confront her as her outraged married H.........or do you confront her as the outraged separated H?
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What do you think, should I confront W with this evidence or wait for more? I think I could try to find the condoms and see if they are used, but most likely donīt find them... If I ask, guess W denies everything. Iīm pretty sure she has not told anyone of her friends either, so no benefit in asking them either.
I don't recommend you confront her with the sex toys, or the condoms. That's a no-win, for sure! It won't benefit you to confront her at all, at least for now. Know why? B/c technically you are suppose to be separated. Obviously, you thought it was to work through the issues and eventually reconcile. But your W is wayward, and this is not what she is doing.....at all. To be blunt, you are just a side dish! She throws you just enough crumbs to keep you attached, b/c she benefits from being legally M to you.
She is acting similar to GGW, and I wouldn't doubt her bringing OM to the nesting apartment while you are with the kids. If you don't think she would do such a low thing.......then you are in a for a rude awakening. Remember the thrill I talked about? Yes, she would do most anything.......b/c she does not emotionally consider herself your W. Hopefully, she hasn't brought OM to the nesting place, but I suspect she is having sex with some other guy....somewhere. From what I read, most women who are S from the H, consider it none of the H's business what she does. Awake yet?
I don't think you should confront her for now. You can choose to get the intell you need, or not, that's your decision. Cadet's signature line says "Knowledge is power". I agree. Some people can handle what they see when they snoop, and some can't. You are the only person who knows which one you are. And, could you leave it alone, once you got the intell? Or would it become an obsession where you were constantly checking to see the latest update? These are important answers you need to know before you do anything else. I mean....anything. When you let us know, then we can start from there. Confrontation, alone, gets you nowhere. It basically let's her know you are aware of her affair. It does not end the affair! Then what is the next step? It's your ball.
I caution you about jumping off into any action that stems from emotions. You have a lot of information to learn here. I hope you take the time to learn first, then make a decision.
Sorry, I didn't intend to write a book.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
First of all, thanks for investing time to give your perspective - very helpful!
What it comes to the background, I recognize myself apologizing after apologizing to her wanting the peace back again. I know I had things to apologize for, my behavior was very negative at times, but really wanted to leave in peace and hoped apologizing (and changing behavior on surface) would enable that. Itīs a bit contradictory, since during fights I had a tendency to excuse myself and my actions that led to the fight, but still I was always the first apologizing. Having this defensive background, I wanted to take full responsibility of my own faults, and I admit that I have propensity to take propensity of her faults as well thinking that I was a "root cause". If I would have been more supportive, she would have respected me; If I would have been emotionally available, she would have loved me; If I would have been physically near without initiating sex, there would have been more sex etc, etc. You said very well that if W donīt take responsibility of her actions, reconciliation of the heart wonīt happen due to all blame she would put on me... I guess there is not any magic wand that would get us there?
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Can you set goals that will help you change, and not repeat the same same mistakes? Just as an example, would seeing an IC help to figure out why you lacked in emotional connection, and why you felt uncomfortable being physically near her?
I began my journey for better man and H about a year ago, and have changed my course, but "too late". I have seen IC and there are several reasons what led to these issues, i.e. fear of being rejected but mostly resentment that I had towards my W. We did not have loving, accepting atmosphere in our home. Understanding love languages would have definitely been helpful, since her primary one is "physical touch" (failed), and mine is "words of affirmation" (failed). However, I donīt know if we would have been able to implement that to our life without this crisis (or right help), since boy, we tried a lot! Only now I feel that I really understand the big picture.
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Her wayward mindset starts with resentment, and then, disrespect.
This is so right - there has been lot of resentment both sides, and she definitely did not respect me. I sometimes thought that I was the best possible H, since I provided well, didnīt hang around with friends at bars, were not abusive (said bad things sometimes though) and definitely did not cheat. Isnīt it a classic! Yes, I was also unhappy, but still I did not leave - so itīs hard for me to accept that she gave up...
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It's the "secret" and the sense of "naughtiness" that becomes intoxicating.
This is so weird - she never wanted to be "naughty" with me, she just wanted to be physically near and emotionally connected when ML. I can say that I would also liked to experience more in martial bed and try new things, but I always listened wishes. So it hurts super much after sex starved marriage to find these kind of toys and think she is doing something that could have spiced up our marriage with someone else. Is that typical for WW?
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Would a PA be a deal breaker for you? Would you continue being intimate with her? Would it make any difference if you knew it was an EA?
Good question. Many years I thought PA would be a deal breaker, but under these circumstances I donīt. If I could confirm that she has a PA/EA, I would say: I am committed to continue emotional attachment focused counselling with you IF PA/EA stops immediately. If you donīt stop, I will file D (especially if PA). On the other hand, of course she could say ok I quit, but still continue... Itīs so hard for me to understand why can she act as nothing has happened? How can she live with her self if she has a PA, we are still married even we are separated!
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You are not clear about the status of your relationship.
Thatīs the thing, I thought we were very clear! We had a separate conversation when we agreed to NOT see anyone else! She always before said to me that the worst thing that could happen to her is that I have affair and she did not know about it, so I kinda imagined that she would respect me that much that she would not do it to me... I also asked 2 weeks ago her to say me right away if she wants to see/have seen others and she said yes and asked me to do the same thing for her. Yes, we are separated but we are still married! My W has always been VERY honest about everything, but I guess it changes in these circumstances?
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She is acting similar to GGW
What is GGW?
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I don't think you should confront her for now. You can choose to get the intell you need, or not, that's your decision. Cadet's signature line says "Knowledge is power". I agree. Some people can handle what they see when they snoop, and some can't. You are the only person who knows which one you are. And, could you leave it alone, once you got the intell? Or would it become an obsession where you were constantly checking to see the latest update? These are important answers you need to know before you do anything else.
The thing is that I feel I need to know. I have even this feeling that how can I leave my kids with my W if she is so "filthy" Itīs feeling SO bad... Yes, I recognize that if she knows I know, it does not necessary stop affair. But if she wants another chance with me (she obviously does not), then it needs to stop! And ATM I feel I have right to know. Itīs only way we can be in good terms in the future for the kids, even if we are not together. Letīs see if I get more evidence today since she just came from weekend trip. I have an idea how to confront her, but Iīll write about it in next post.
