Getting ready to move forward

[petri]

Old thread is here: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...;gonew=1#UNREAD

[petri]

Today S11 had parkour training. I'm working so couldn't take him. Told him to ask his friend if he could go with them. That did work out. Then I told him to ask W if she could take him. S11 said that W is with friends so she can't take him. Texted W about it and S11 hadn't even asked her. So now I have a son who is lying to my face. Life is wonderful.

[Joe2017]

She could also be lying about it.

[petri]

S11 admitted that he lied. I am veey disappointed right now. This is not typical to S11. Not at all.

[Joe2017]

I see. Well, this is really hard on him too. I know it's bogus, but it's important that he knows you love him and you're there for him, despite the lie. Kids are incredibly empathic.

[petri]

I had a talk with S11. I was very straight forward with him. I told him that the lie he told made his mom seem like a bad person. He realised that too. I told him that W is not a bad person. He said that his sad mind got a hold of him, that's why he used W in the lie.

[winner]

This is often the sad reality of D that the W or H do not really take into account. I wish the children were considered more in these cases and that the statement "children are resilient" could not be glamourized.

[Henwen]

I agree about that statement. My daughter is in therapy because of this separation. But my x thinks the kids are just fine and this separation doesn't affect them.

[petri]

Winner & Henwen. That's what my W is saying. When I talked about family she said "don't you f-ing talk to me about family b/c this is about you and me, this has nothing to do with kids". And of course the basic kids will be just fine, this doesn't affect them etc...there is actually no negative in divorce in her mind. Everything will be just fine after the D. Everyone will be happy and money will pouring from every window and door.

Basically she is right that this is about me and her. But the fact is that she doesn't see how this does affect our kids and our parsnts and siblings b/c it does affect much larger than me and her.

[petri]

Had a talk with my sister. She had seen Ws picture in FB. My sister said that she was shocked what W looks like, she referred W to a skeleton. And to be honest...last time I saw her, I felt like I was looking at a stranger. She doesn't look like she used to. She's starting to look like an addict or a person who doesn't eat.

[winner]

They say this so that they dont feel the guilt and have to carry all of the shame that follows. I have many adult friends who parents divorced and even as adults its painful. There will always be a sharp pain associated with it. This is just mere selfishness!!!

[petri]

I am from divorce family myself. In my parents case my mom had to protect the kids and herself. Still there has always been a hole inside me. Even if I know it was the best decision for my mom and us kids.

In our case there is no clear reason. We had family trips a couple of weeks prior to W telling she's going to leave and she was all happy with me and the kids. Then all of a sudden she stopped talking to me and then moved out. How this will impact the kids even if we would end up in recon? Not well I suppose.

[petri]

We made official agreement with a real estate agent to sell the house. Before the real estate agent came, W was avoiding, didn't look at me and even turned her back at me. But when the agenr came she was all positive and upbeat. How can they keep this show up? I would be exhausted.

And on a positive note. The agent told us that our house had been mispriced. So we just might get through this almost with our feet dry.

[petri]

Texted with W about selling the house. She texted that it feels kind of crazy to sell it. And that she is going through a hard agony of abandoning and still struggling with major guilt issues. She finished saying that although she dowsn't want to live there anymore there a always memories. After a while she texted that luckily the kids will adapt better than us grown ups. And that S11 is glad we're moving b/c he doesn't like his room.

[petri]

Tomorrow we have an appointment with child welfare officer. W started asking me about alimony. What are my thoughts on it, am I going to ask for it etc. I've told her answers to these before. And I told her again. We are not going to talk about alimony at this point. Only custody issues.

[petri]

We had the appointment with child welfare officer. We have joint custody, week/week arrangement, the kids home is where my home is. Huge relief!

[petri]

Lately W has been sending me texts about the kids and what thwy are doing. As soon as there's a "flow" with our communication like we had during MR she bluntly texts OK, yep etc. and it stops there. Temp checking or what?

[petri]

I totally screwed up. W has the kids this weekend and I heard she is hitting the bar scene on friday. So I told her that I don't understand, since we don't have much time with the kids, why these moments has to be used to hit the bars. And so the spew began...

[Manny]

Trying to move forward is the hardest part I think. I personally go back and forth from excitement at what the future holds and disappointment that I no longer have my partner. I look back an their were so many miss opportunities to really fixed things, that's where guilt comes in. I need to forgive myself and move forward.

[LH19]

I totally screwed up. W has the kids this weekend and I heard she is hitting the bar scene on friday. So I told her that I don't understand, since we don't have much time with the kids, why these moments has to be used to hit the bars. And so the spew began...

Yep you screwed up. Now is not a good time to be judging and controlling her. Get up and dust yourself off.

[petri]

What I did next. I apologised. What she wrote next blow me away. W: I can't take this guilt anymore.
M: Can you tell me where this guilt comes from?
W: Me hurting you. I'm a bad person and a bad mom. Pete, I screamed here on new years eve. Screamed and cried on the floor. It's not easy for me.
I felt apart completely when I came here for a thermometer and medicine. Although I want this, it's not easy for me. It's hurting me too.
M: I undestand this is not easy for you. Do you have anyone to talk to? Can ypu talk to anyone?
W: Yes I have and I can.

[LH19]

What blew you away about it? Why did you apologize? You meant it right?

[petri]

What blew you away about it? Why did you apologize? You meant it right?

The thought that she might actually see that she is hurting us. She really hasn't showed that. It's been all about her.
I apologized because I reacted. I should not have reacted. It wasn't about boundaries or anything. Just a stupid and childish reaction. And yes I meant it.

[LH19]

Look man AS writes about this all the time, of course she feels guilty she is blowing up your family. Any normal human being would. Don't confuse that with remorse. Do you understand the difference.

You guys are separated and what she does that isn't endangering your kids is none of your fuching business. The best thing for you is to start getting out and moving forward with your life like she's doing.

You shouldn't have said what you said but never apologize for something that you meant.

[petri]

I know it's not remorse. What I mean is the fact that the guilt has been about her. This is the first time she said something that wasn't about her.

That is what I meant with reacting. It's not my business and I know it. And I've been moving forward. I just don't hit the bars when I'm with the kids.

I thought you were talking about the apology if I meant it. Like I said. I reacted thus it was not meant. So apology was in order.

[petri]

"True remorse is never just regret over consequence; it is regret over motive." Mignon McLaughlin

[petri]

One thing that amused me about Ws outburst last night was the language. Since we are in Finland naturally we text in finnish. But W threw some nice english sentences here and there i.e. "what's the f-ing problem", "end of story". You could expect that from a teen, but from a 35 year old...

[sandi2]

You could expect that from a teen, but from a 35 year old...

In many ways, she is like a teenager. It would be much better for you if you could stop analyzing everything she says and letting it mess with you. There is one expectation you can have about her........she will not seem like a normal 35 year old woman as long as she is in this mindset. Whenever the two of you interact, just prepare yourself to hear something that seems completely juvenile, illogical, or insane. If you will stop expecting her to be "normal", then maybe, these experiences will become easier to dismiss.

Also, Petri, be prepared for her to have another bout of "not sure of what she wants". Although she has said she "wants this", the more reality begins to bite her in the a$$, the more concerned she will be for her own security. Apparently, she still thought the lifestyle she had become accustomed to would continue after the D.......even thinking you would pay alimony. If she believes you can provide better financial security........she just might have a week moment and temp check to see if you would put the D on hold. However, if she made that move, it would be another deed motivated from concern for herself......rather than love. If and when she comes through this later, and if she hasn't remarried and you haven't either........who knows. She might come to her senses and seek you out, humbly ask for your forgiveness and express her sincere remorse for the destruction and pain that she caused. But if that ever happens, and if she wants to try again.......don't take her back too quickly and too easily. Couples need a good MC the second time around.

She still turns to you when she is upset, and she takes it out on you many times. This is due to her resentment and b/c she has not completely let go of those actions that came within the relationship with you. Does that make sense? In other words, it's a habit or behavior pattern that was developed during the MR. It's similar to losing a close loved one in death, and some days later you catch yourself picking up the phone to call them. It really has not sunk in to her head that you are not going to be in her life.......apart from co-parenting the kids.

If you have decided you cannot emotionally endure her anymore, then don't react to things she says. Try your best to act as if you are just an observer who is emotionally detached from her drama. Don't take anything personally, blame yourself, or get upset by her words. It is a coping technique that works for many people who want to protect themselves from the aftermath of the breakup.

Hope things get better for you real soon.

[Vanilla]

Look man AS writes about this all the time, of course she feels guilty she is blowing up your family.

Mind reading. Just because you would LH that doesn't mean a wayward will.

Any normal human being would.

There is nothing 'normal' about waywardness.
Whatever normal is.


Don't confuse that with remorse. Do you understand the difference.

This is far from remorse!

You guys are separated and what she does that isn't endangering your kids is none of your fuching business. The best thing for you is to start getting out and moving forward with your life like she's doing.

Well not as she is doing exactly. But concentrating on self is great.

You shouldn't have said what you said but never apologize for something that you meant.

I agree, partly. If you speak the truth there is no requirement to apologise. However if the delivery is appalling the message isn't received anyway and this will backfire big time. So apologise for the delivery not the meaning.

My views

V

[Btrow]

She might come to her senses and seek you out, humbly ask for your forgiveness and express her sincere remorse for the destruction and pain that she caused

Sandi,
Is this your experience, since you joined this site, that they humbly ask for forgiveness etc if they come back?

I thought women never came "crawling" back?

Sorry for the hijack petri

[petri]

Sandi: nice to get your feedback and guidance. To jump ahead of things in Finlad we don't have good MC. Not that I've heard of. But we'll tackle that if and when it's time for it. I feel like Michael Corleone in Godfather 3 with W. "I try to get out and they pull me back in"

V: thank you. The blowing up the family thing. She hasn't shown much guilt for that. And I do think it's a big deal for her to admit it.

We had a R related text convo last night. She iniated. I'll post about it a bit later. Now off to work.

[petri]

So she was drinking last night. And long story short. She was sorry for doing this. There is some part of her that would like to give M another chance but she is afraid that everything will be the same. She said she felt like she was nothing to me, just some mass. She felt like she wasn't loved.

Today we were supposed to start cleaning the house. She was too hungover to do anything. But the general feeling was more light not pressuring. She made eyecontact a lot, looked at me when I was doing puzzle with D7 and even smiled.

I don't know if any of this means anything. But it was nice.

[sandi2]

To jump ahead of things in Finlad we don't have good MC. Not that I've heard of. But we'll tackle that if and when it's time for it.

Then you could order tapes or books from a well know author (Like Gottman, for example) who teaches healing after an affair. Of course, it would take discipline and it is harder to do as a couple, but don't go to a bad counselor. My H would not go to MC with me, but he would use a book. We would go a chapter every night and then discuss it. Not as good as having a professional dealing directly with you.....but better than nothing.

You have to enforce boundaries when you have a WW. You just have to do it, or they learn nothing and repeat the bad behavior. Even after reconciliation, you have to hold her feet to the fire, or she will disrespect you. The key is to not let her slide by one time....then, twice, then three times.....etc.

She was sorry for doing this. There is some part of her that would like to give M another chance but she is afraid that everything will be the same.

Did you quizz her about it, or did she volunteer this information? I would not sink too much in expectations in words that come from drinking. Remember, the way to know she is being real is when her words, attitude and actions are parallel.

You'll know you have made a lot of progress in yourself, when you stop wondering if it means anything, and just accept the nicer times for what they genuinely are.........nice.

I'm not trying to pull you down, I am trying to prevent you from having expectations from a conversation while she was drinking..........or even not drinking, for that matter. Words, although appreciated, are very cheap.

[petri]

I appreciate your honesty sandi. Your posts keep my feet on the ground.

[petri]

W started R talk again. The feeling has always been away, no passion ever. I asked her that if there has been no feeling or pssion why has she been with me for almost 14 years. No clear answer. I asked if she wanted to do some work for the MR. She said it's hard now. I asked why. She replied "it just is". Then I asked what is she really afraid of. Convo stopped there without an answer.

[winner]

How far are you into the D process? Has she mentioned anything about placing it on hold?

[petri]

She has filed. In Finland we have 6 months consideration time. After that final D can be filed. Final D has to be filed with in a year. She said that she wants her own apartment and her own new life.

[petri]

OM confirmed by W.

[petri]

Is this all wayward? Telling that she has been thinking if we should get back together and then informing me that there is an OM. Rude is a mild word to use here.

[petri]

W said she is not looking for a relationship and is just seeing this guy. He is a f-buddy. That is a sign that she really is what she was before we met.

[petri]

We had a face to face R talk. W is getting her needs filled with OM. So there is no need to think MR as an option. She told me that she has acted most of our M. And I believe that. I've seen glimpses of the "real" her. She told me that maybe things would be different if she stopped acting. But she's in total denial. She has done everything right, I'm the bad guy. When we talked about if we are willing to commit to our MR she said I don't know. She is afraid that everything will be the same for her. That I haven't changed and thus can't fullfill her needs. How in earth can I show her if she isn't willing to see?

[petri]

Is it ok that I signed off the living arrangements? I wont be going to Ws apartment anymore. And we will live under the same roof every other week. And she's out of the MBR.

[petri]

All I can do is laugh at the spew I'm getting again. I told W that my part of the renovation debt will be paid when I buy the apartment. She went nuts! The f-word was there about 30 times. Wow. I should have told her about my plans and ask her if it would be ok for me to pay my part of the debt. And then staryed the you're such a f-ing saint, we were never good for each other etc...

[petri]

Is it common for WW to seek IC? W told me that she has thought about it. Butbhasn't had the time or money for it. Seems weird since she told me that she is not the type of person to get pro help.

[petri]

Today was another bad day. I talked with my dad and he asked if I would go with him to my brothers grave. I just collapsed. I just fell on the floor crying. I'm so f-ing broken right now. I'm so hurt. I just want to crawl in to a pit and stay there. When will this pain go away? When can I start processing my brothers death? When can I mourn that?

[NicoleR]

Hi Petri, I don't know the story about your brother's passing but I'm so deeply sorry to read that you're dealing with that on top of your wife leaving. That's too much for anyone to handle. You poor guy. You need someone who loves you just to take care of you for a while! Sometimes we just can't make it alone. Someone else has to take the pain away at least temporarily and do things for us. Can your dad do that?

Are you Finnish? I've been to Finland and know the culture. It's very hard there to be open and meet people without alcohol. It's not like the US where you can join any support group and have a ton of new friends or walk into a room and everyone's smiling and shaking your hand and friendly. Maybe you need a vacation friend. Maybe you need to fly for a week to any Latin American country, the US, Italy, Egypt, any sub-Saharan African country....just to be in a warm and friendly place. I'm sure your environment doesn't help matters.

[petri]

It hurts me that she has had this A for months. You all told me but I was in denial. Deep inside I knew it. What to do now? I still want her back. I'll post what she has said about the A and our MR a little later.

[petri]

So here's what I've heard since hearing about OM. It's not serious but has been going on for 3-4 months. She said that the OM is the reason why she doesn't want to think about trying on M. And the MR has been off from the start. There was never real passion, real chemistry, that deep feeling. And that she believes that she will never get what she needs and wants from me but the OM gives her all that. And that she hasn't been the real her in our R/MR.

And then there are the accusations that the visit to the child welfare officer and selling the house are only my agendas to get her scared and come back.

Am I right if I assume that this is all going according the "WW script"? Because she is WW isn't she.

[LH19]

P,

Yes she is WW she just admitted it to you. I also agree with her as I also got the feeling the selling the house was a ploy on your part to get her back. IMO after everything she just told you , you need to go in the opposite direction. Accept that tour marriage is over for now and build an awesome life for you and your kids. If you pursue in anyway this will make you look weak and pathetic.

This isn’t over you are still early in the process. No more talks and definitely no pursuit.

This $hit ain’t easy but you will survive and thrive if you choose to.

[petri]

LH: she is the one who wants to sell the house. I just contacted the real estate agent.

[petri]

I'll open this up now. W said from early on that no matter how this ends she doesn't want to live in the house anymore(and she said the same about a week ago). She hates it and gets anxious in it. First the idea was for me to take the house for myself. But I can't afford it. She doesn't want it nor can she afford it. So the house goes for sale. Or do you think that I should just keep this arrangement going on until the end of times?

[sandi2]

When we talked about if we are willing to commit to our MR she said I don't know. She is afraid that everything will be the same for her. That I haven't changed and thus can't fullfill her needs. How in earth can I show her if she isn't willing to see?

Which of you asked if you or she was willing to commit to the MR? Why did the conversation even come up? I think you said she initiated, os if that's the case and if she only talked negatively about reconciliation......then it was one of two reasons that I can think. 1). She was temp checking you, or 2) She was trying to convince you to D her.

The fact that you are so upset over not knowing how to prove your changes and fulfill her needs......simply shows that your thinking is not straight, Petri. She has an OM! I don't know how long he has been waiting in the wings, but I take this as strong indication she does not want to resume a M with you. Unless a man was really a rotten H and his W was a saint, I don't know why he would think it was all about him improving to become good enough to deserve another chance.

And, it's not just b/c OM has shown up, but the fact she continues to make everything your fault. It's her mindset. As long as she is making you out to be the bad guy.......there is no convincing her things will be different. So you need to stop that type of thinking now.

Have you asked yourself why the heck she would tell you about the OM at this particular time? Your brother passes away, and she initiates R talks and complains about you, then dangles OM in your face and has the audacity to say she is afraid things would be the same? I don't know how you can even think this is about you not proving you've changed or showing her things would be different. But, maybe you haven't changed, Pete. Maybe you're still the man with NGS.

The best thing you can do to help yourself and have a ghost of a chance in saving the M, is to dump her. I don't know what you meant by this proves she is what she was before you M her, but I have to ask if it makes a difference for you. If it does, then stop with all the craziness of trying this or that to win her back. You have not won her. You won't win her, even if you R, you won't win her heart........b/c you aren't the only one who needs to change. Refusing to sell the house will do nothing to help your M, either.

You've been so focused on just reconciling that you act as if it doesn't matter what you get......just as long as you get her back. She KNOWS things won't be different, b/c her heart is closed to her H. She cannot have two men in her heart at the same time. Even if OM is just a f--- buddy, it prevents her heart from being opened for her H. Having a f--- buddy, is a pretty obvious sign she is not ready to be in a devoted M with you. She did not bring up the OM in conversation b/c she was wanting to R. She did nothing that sounded like a W wanting to R for the right reasons.

If you still want her, regardless, then let her see you dumping her. If you don't want her.....then dump her. Either way, you are more likely to get what you want.

Currently, you have too much pain on you. Your parents are grieving, too, so they may not be able to emotionally support you like you need. Maybe that is why you feel you need your W, IDK. IMHO, remaining under the same roof, even ever other week, is a horrible arrangement. She has another man! You won't be able to detach with her coming in to stay every other week. You couldn't do it sharing an apartment. Why would you insist on it? Why not sell the house, so you can move forward? Don't say it is for the kids, b/c it is awful for children to live in that environment where the parents are S but staying under the same roof. Children do just fine moving to another house, so don't use that excuse, either. I think you have clung to the house b/c it kept your W tied to you in some respect. Get out from under it.

[petri]

During this whole separation there has been pain after pain. Separation, filing D, telling it's all over, OM. It would have been easier if all would of happened in one crash.

But W wants to go to MC to talk. Clear things. Do I refuse or should I use this as an opportunity to dump her?

She said that she has been thinking if we should still give our MR a shot. Then there was the talk about commitment. And in this convo she said that mayde things would be different if stopped pretending to be something she's not.

[sandi2]

But W wants to go to MC to talk. Clear things. Do I refuse or should I use this as an opportunity to dump her?

What good will MC do, if she has OM? Most times, a WW will suggest MC, not to reconcile the MR, but more as a way of saying she tried everything and nothing worked. Some WW's find a counselor who is not pro-marriage, but a divorce counselor in disguise. So, my vote would be to tell her you are not interested in seeing a MC, or anything else, as long as she is involved with with someone else. Not to try and persuade or pressure her, but to shut this game down. If you tell her anything, tell her you are done. (Doesn't mean you feel that way, but feelings follow actions). Show some self respect.

You don't have to settle for crumbs, Petri. It sounds as if she is throwing just enough at your feet to make you beg. She starts a R talk, but then tells you how everything is your fault.....and oh yeah, she has a new f---- buddy, but then adds she has been wondering if she should consider give the M another shot? Well, I know what my answer would be, but you have to do what you feel is right is for you.

I think as long as you grab at the straws she throws out there, the less chance you'll ever have in R the MR. Besides, what would you have if you got her back? This makes you look too needy, too desperate, too eager. It's time you stopped agreeing to take left-overs. Learn to say, "No thanks", and you will discover how quickly she makes up her mind in what she really wants. Strange how that works! If she believes you are finished with her.......I think she'll pursue you. Of course, she'll have to try playing games at first, but when she sees you won't go along with it, she'll get serious.

TxHubby put up with his WW's unfaithfulness and pseudo reconciliation, while he rotted away in limbo. He saw no changes in her, until he was fed up and no longer cared what she did. He was finished. She begged him not to leave her. Last I heard, he was holding her feet to the fire. It took him a long time before he had the courage to let her go, but once he did......she went crawling to him.

Now, you won't get this advice from DB counselors. This is strictly my opinion. I'm not going to fall out with you if you don't follow it. I'm telling you what would have yanked me back into gear if my H would have done what I'm suggesting. From what I've read from other WW's, they agree. As long as the H jumps whenever the WW says "frog"........he will do a lot of hopping around, but he won't get very far with her.

When I suggested dumping her, I don't mean you tell her that's what you are doing. Your attitude shows her you are through with her game playing. Your actions show that you have a life apart from her. She doesn't see you caring, or torn up b/c she's toying with your feelings. You don't give her that chance. As far as you know.....she fell off the planet, and you are moving forward. Don't think she won't hear about how happy you are in your new life. Don't think little birds won't tell her how much you've changed and how some lady would be lucky to have you. It's attitude and actions. Stop with having talks, b/c it does not work.

Don't be mean or hateful, but you should decline her offers or suggestions of MC. You don't make threats, or blow off steam, lecture her, blame, or any of your usual coping techniques that fail. You simply stop showing any interest in her. You don't care about her men, her decisions, her behavior, or her life..........as far as she knows. Just let her go. My words are...."dump her". When you are truly emotionally detached, she'll know b/c she will feel it. So start detaching, for real.

Am I trying to get you divorced? No, not as long as you want to stay M. I am telling you what works from the viewpoint of a former WW.

Stay strong, Petri. ((hugs))

[petri]

Strong words again sandi. Thank you so much. But can I use the MC session to say "you are right. It is time to call it quits. There is nothing left to build on."

[Btrow]

Petri,

You know she doesn't want the marriage (right now) . Apparently you feel the same way (at the moment). Why waste money on MC if you already know the outcome. Do what Sandi says. You either tell her no MC while you are in a 3 person marriage or you simply "dump" her now if that is what you want to do.

[petri]

The MC is acrually free. We have free MC in Finland which is provided by church. The are professional marriage counslers.

[petri]

And sandi is probably right about the motive why she is going. She just wants her motives for D to be confirmed. But isn't it best if I tell her in presence of a marriage counsler that this is it. Since I already promised to go it would be inconsistent to back down.

[petri]

She wanted to go if it would make me feel better. So I cancelled it. I told her this M is over. "Yes it is".

[petri]

How to move on now? Any concrete ideas? Remove her and her family/friends from facebook? Start seeing other people?

[LH19]

How to move on now? Any concrete ideas? Remove her and her family/friends from facebook? Start seeing other people?

Come on man. Have learned anything from DB? You have a lot of work to do on yourself. Your'e not ready to date.

If you do not go through the complete process of letting go, grieving, healing you are going to prolong the suffering. There are not shortcuts!

What are your personal goals for you and your kids? Are you exercising.

Read ATPEACE's thread and find out what happens when you try to take shortcuts.

There are no tricks to get your W back.

[petri]

I know I have a lot to do for me. I don't wont to put other people in a sitch where I'm potentially going to hurt them. And any sane person wouldn't put oneself in that sitch either.
And you're right LH. Now I need to focus on me and my kids.

Right now I'm partially relieved and partially torn apart. I'll check those threads. Little by little forward we go.

[petri]

I have to say that my WW is actually nice. She texted me "It's up to you Pete when you let go." And she's right. I need to let go. I just don't know how.

[TBSakaJ9]

P....IMO removing people from Facebook, Instagram, etc. is just a ploy by the LBS to get some reaction from the WW. I am still friends with my W on Facebook but I never go on Facebook so for me it's whatever. I am not in high school.

I can tell you from my personal experience if you follow Sandi's rules to a T you will begin to detach, heal yourself and gain confidence. Your W has a confirmed OM, there is nothing more to say. Time for P to start enforcing his boundaries.

I did not have a confirmed OM in my sitch (although I have always thought there was) but when my W told me she wanted to Separate in 3 months and stay in the house I told her it wasn't going to work for me and she needed to move out ASAP. She moved out within 3 weeks and then I told her she needed to open up her own bank account. Once she did and her checks got re-directed I took away her debit card to our joint account, credit card and checkbook. We agreed on a financial arrangement and I went as dim as I could due to the kids. If she wanted to move out then these things were going to happen.

If you follow Sandi's rules to a T, I mean eat, sleep and breathe them, you will move forward with your dignity in-tact whether you save your MR or not.

I get it you have kids, mine are younger than yours. It does suck for them but I can tell you from my personal experience that if you are fine, they will be fine. My children are as happy as they have ever been.

You are hanging on to something that no longer exists. It is a horrible experience and I am truly sorry but it is time to let go. Letting go for me started by expediting our Separation and enforcing Sandi's rules.

Peace to you and your family P.

[petri]

Thanks J.

I really need to go through sandi's rules again and again. I've gone by them for a good time. I should have declined the R talk. I was doing pretty good up to that point. She caught me guards down. How can I be so fudging stupid? I just need to get up and do what I did before.

Hopefully we get the house sold fast so I can really start to move forward b/c this current sitch is killing me. And that way I can go as dark as possible. And I have something that's really mine. For the first time in my life.

My kids have started to lie and steal(from friends). W says it's all b/c of their age. And maybe so. Maybe I see everything through D glasses right now.

Now I have to print sandi's rules and tattoo them to my brain. It's funny how I've told people here that marriage is just an institution and there's no need to be afraid of it. And here I am...scared sh**less. How stupid is that?

"Anyone can give up, it's the easiest thing in the world to do. But when you hold it together when everyone else would understand if you fall apart, that's true strength."

[petri]

Oh fudge. I went through the rules again. I've stick to all of them. In a week I've "broken" quite a olt of them! Holy stupidity P-man...

[TBSakaJ9]

P....your not stupid, this isn't easy. Letting your W go is strength. Implement and follow the rules ASAP. Hold the line, don't waiver. I only interact with my W if it is kid or finance related and it is generally via email or text. Very rarely do I ever ask who, what, where, when, why questions and I do not talk about us. When we do interact I am nice, polite and friendly. I am not rude, short, etc.

This is how you can show her you are moving on.

[petri]

J...I've been doing the same. And I thought I was doing well. Then some crumbs were thrown to my feet like sandi pointed out and I was on my knees right away. Should of seen that coming. I never ask anything about her plans etc...and our comm has only been about kids, finances and other practical things that need to be solved. And that's where I'm going back. I need to remind me about rule no. 37...

[TBSakaJ9]

I get it....as you gain strength and confidence it will be easier to hold the line. We all mistakes early on, if you do just pick yourself up and move on. IMO though the set-backs do more damage than what we like to admit. Every time you do it just lets your W know you are still around. It is even worse if you string a few good months together and then backslide.

I struggled for the first 1.5 months but the last time I crumbled she really put me in place and I vowed to never do it ever again.

[Maika]

I echo what J just said. I was all over the crumbs early on... it really wrecked me, especially in the first few months after BD. The crumbs were so tempting that I railed against DB, thought my case was totally different than others here, and didn't really commit to the rules.

My wake up call was when I temp checked her as I was tired of the crumbs because I couldn't tell if they were crumbs or genuine attempts from her. She put me in my place.. HARD.. like CRUSHED ME...

It made me feel so small, pathetic, desperate, and beta male. I vowed I would not do that again and I never wanted to feel that way again. I committed back to the rules and it has helped me immensely to grow, detach, and figure my life out. I've had an emotional setback recently, but I am back on track.

Just know that if she can drop BD on you, then she can very well show you without a doubt that she wants to recon or work on the MR or whatever. If she's throwing crumbs, they are what they are.. nothing more... don't be tempted to think that she is throwing crumbs because she is meek or trying to test things out... it is definitely not that... especially in the beginning.

stay strong and follow the rules..

[petri]

What I've been thinking here. I don't know if any of this makes a difference in anything. But alot of people talk that in the beginning...what does that mean? As you can see I registered here in December. First BD was in april, S started in September. Is this still in the beginning if we think about the time gap from S to December? Because most have registered before S or even first BD.

[Maika]

Ok! Don't worry about the timeline stuff. Beginning.. middle.. the end... who knows.

What i was saying is that if she wants to make genuine moves, they will come across as authentic and genuine and won't be meek. And even if you engage in one of her temp checks for whatever reason, if you follow the rules and have no expectations, you've defused the temp check.

So, don't worry focus on the timeline. Focus on the rules and strengthening yourself. The rest will take care of itself.

[petri]

If it wasn't for this forum. I would have lost my mental health totally(I've lost some of it surely...). Thanks guys and gals!

[Maika]

Add me to that list. This Forum has without exaggeration, saved my life and mind.. I wouldn't be this far ahead in my recovery without the amazing folks here. True Life Saver

[sandi2]

She caught me guards down.

Let me warn you, and then you won't let your guard down........I hope. Your W is going to play games and temp check, to see if you really are through with the MR. She'll ask if you can be friends, but don't agree to be her BFF. A WW will abuse it, b/c she doesn't see the friendship in the same way as the H. So, wait for her to say how she hopes the two of you can remain friends. Then tell her you will be civil but that you are not interested in having a friendship. This is important, Petri. She may react to that news in a variety of ways, but stick to your guns about this matter. Don't share this what I am about to tell you, but becoming her friend, is a demotion from being her H. In time, and if she changes.....and if you change, and she is willing to work on the MR, then you can go through a period of being friends.....while you work toward getting back together........and, getting counseling to go back into the M as H and W.

Another warning....... expect her to pursue you with a host of text messaging, replying to your FB comments, etc. If it is nothing important about your kids, then don't reply. Don't try to be "nice". If you have to give a reply, use as few words as possible. You aren't trying to form a relationship with her. You are letting go. You don't have to tiptoe around her to keep her in a better mood. It is not your job.

Another warning is to expect her to make comments that makes it sound as if you were the one to pull the plug, and as if you were the one who gave up just as she was "considering" giving the M another shot. It's all b.s. You have to ignore it, and whatever you do......don't respond to those comments. Let her say or think whatever she chooses. It is really liberating when you get to the place you can do this and it doesn't bother you anymore. If she feels better making you the bad guy.......so be it. You know the truth. You don't have to sign up to battle her mindset from now on to the day you die. Why should you? It does no good to try to persuade her differently.

The successes I have seen IRL are the couples who separate physically, and live separate lives. They put physical space between them, and give each other emotional space. Sometimes it takes a couple of years before they start slowly contacting each other occasionally, and then they try at being friends. Eventually, they start going out together. They don't rush into a R. If they need therapy/counseling or some type of M program to help them in their issues, they do it......before trying to live under the same roof. Old problems have to be repaired, resolved, and forgiven.......in order to have a new MR.

Maybe none of this sounds encouraging, but I want you to know there is hope.....if you want it. However, you can't have what you want overnight. Not when it involves the kind of problems you and your W currently have. Your hope is placed in how well you are able to let her go. It takes time, space, individual change, and GAL. I do not suggest you get involved with another woman, b/c this often creates additional problems. Just make a life for yourself that has nothing to do with your W. Don't try to cling to the circles that included her, her relatives, her old haunts, etc. Don't attend traditional family events or celebrations. You start your own. The kids get birthday parties at mom's, and another one at dad's place.

The next few days you are going to experience depressed feelings, so plan activities that will help you feel better. See movies you like, eat comfort food, watch comedy shows, go to music shows.......whatever you like. Don't watch sad love stories, observe other young couples/families, and things that will pull down even more. Hang around your buddies. Hang out on the board reading the links in Cadet's homework page. Read a self-help book. Plan activities to do this year, and fill up your calendar. Plan ahead fun things with your kids (without your W, of course). By the end of the year, who knows how your life will improve. Will it include your W? Maybe, but nothing in life is a garantee. All we can do is what's right for us, and make the most it.

((hugs))





You have to be your own best friend, Petri.

[petri]

sandi...how do you always know what to say to make people fell better? You are amazing. Sure I feel sad but not depressed. I've been that for sure. I read what AS wrote on Maikas thread and that gave my some relief that everything is going to be ok. And the fact that I AM worthy of a loving relationship.

[petri]

We're cleaning the house today. I'm listening to some Wheeler Walker Jr. while cleaning. I'm laughing my a$$ off. I'm not trying to mean or anything but this helps me right now.

[petri]

Any recommendations on books to read for a person in this sitch?

[LH19]

No more Mr. Nice Guy

[petri]

Adding to my list. Also thinking about Hardwiring happiness and The gifts of imperfection and maybe something from Patrick King

[petri]

I know what I'm going to get as answers from this...
What if W is telling the truth? What if she had adopted to being something she is not b/c she assumed I wanted her to be something else? And then she just got fed up to it? I really do think the same that there was always that little something missing. What if it was the fact that she wasn't what she really is? Last summer when she was more "her real self", I was happier than ever, I felt like I fell in love with her again. That is the hardest part.

[LH19]

What exactly is the question P?

[petri]

Am I going nuts here? That could be the question.

[Btrow]

Yes you are going nuts. All part of the process. You'll be asking yourself a lot of stupid questions and give yourself all sorts of stupid answers. It's normal. But it will pass with time.

Like Cadet wrote in his original post to you. Trust none of what she says.... Your W is probably more confused than you right now, so do not assign any meaning to what she say and do.

[petri]

I haven't slept a good night through for a while. I need to call my IC tomorrow for something that I can sleep.

[sandi2]

Your physician can prescribe something, if you can't sleep. Have you tried over the counter sleep-aides? Dramamine is for motion sickness, but it makes you very sleepy, and it is over the counter.

Remember what I said you would be experiencing for a while. Currently, you are doubting youself. You are replaying all the stuff she's said, over and over in your head. Next, you'll start beating yourself up b/c you'll buy into all the gas lighting things she told you...........if you don't stop it. Be your own best friend, Petri. Don't let yourself believe WW propaganda.

Another couple of books to add to your list: 1) Co-dependent No More, 2) The Superior Man

You are going to be just fine, Petri. You will get through this rough time, and you will come out being better than ever.

The board has had so many people to leave without us knowing whatever happened. However, we have seen several who did not stay in their M's to drop by to tell everyone they couldn't be happier, and they wanted to encourage those who felt there was no life after D. I'm not saying you will or won't go through D. I'm saying that there is life either way.

I don't want you to leave us, okay? You are very valuable to us, and to your family & friends. Not shutting yourself off from others, and making yourself get out of the house and go places will help you get through the bad times. Don't give in at moment of weakness and call your W. That would be mistake. Do you have a close male friend you can talk to sometimes?

One more thing. I talk a lot about male strength. My hero, which was my father, was the strongest man I've known. I saw him go through some really tough times. I thought he was courageous. I also discovered that when he grieved, he often cried in private. I doubt very many people would have thought that about him, b/c he was known as being a man's man. I guess what I am trying to tell you, is to allow yourself time to grieve, and even cry if it helps. (Just do your crying in private). And bear in mind that this feeling will not last forever. Things do get better.

((hugs))

[petri]

I'm not leaving you. I couldn't do that after all the help I've gotten. Right now I'm in the zone of blaming myslef for going for her gaslighting. I have no trouble to go about without calling or texting W. All I have to do is picture sandis words SHE'S HAVING AN AFFAIR! I know we are separated and therefor it quite ok to have OPs. But that helps me so don't take that away from me by saying what I just stated!

I have a few male friend that I can confide in. But only one who I can talk to without him demonizing and talking s$it about W. I don't want to trash talk W. No matter what she has done. She is lost right now and she is doing all of this b/c she believes everything she does is right.

I'll be adding thos books to my list.

[petri]

W texted me on saturday. She thanked me for everything. Said that she has learned alot about herself during this S/D. And that she is still in the process with herself.

I asked a clarifying question. Does she mean the process she talked in the very beginning? She is lost with herself, as a woman.

She replied yes, that too.

So that brings me to the question is this more MLC/other personal/age crisis than WW? I know it doesn't change anything.

[neffer]

That`s why you have to walk for yourself. Become stronger and be there for your kids. Be the lighthouse.

[LH19]

So that brings me to the question is this more MLC/other personal/age crisis than WW?

If I told you it was MLC would it make you feel better? I think many people here feel if they can label it then they can understand it.

Doesn't change anything. If you want your W back show her you are done with her BS cheating (don't sugar coat it she cheated) ways and start assembling a life that is fuching awesome for you and your kids. Then maybe in the future she earns another chance to be with you.

You are suffering right now because you are not able to accept the reality of your situation.

[petri]

I really love these wake up calls you give LH!

You are suffering right now because you are not able to accept the reality of your situation.

Totally correct.

[petri]

Some books ordered...
No more Mr Nice Guy
Codependent no more(actually found it in finnish!)
The Science of Likability
Superhuman Eye Contact
Make your bed (already got it)
You are a bada$$ (already got it)

These should keep me busy for a while.

[TBSakaJ9]

P...I agree with L. She is still occupying way too much of your head space. Continue to work on detaching. You will probably never know the reason why any of this is happening to you. It is hard but there are many things in this world that happen of which we never get the answers to. Why should this be any different?

[sandi2]

W texted me on saturday. She thanked me for everything. Said that she has learned alot about herself during this S/D. And that she is still in the process with herself.

I asked a clarifying question. Does she mean the process she talked in the very beginning? She is lost with herself, as a woman.

She replied yes, that too.

So that brings me to the question is this more MLC/other personal/age crisis than WW? I know it doesn't change anything.

It doesn't mean squat!! Just like the other b.s. she gave you. What does that mean to lose yourself as a woman? Nothing! She read or heard that garbage at the beauty saloon or wherever........and figured it sounded ultrasheik & modern, but those type of "explanations" for a woman breaking up her family have been around since the 60's.

She didn't know how to say good-bye, and that trash sounded as good a way as any to end it. But you are the one that keeps making too much of what she says now. You are straining and weighing every word that comes out of her mouth. Why? When you've been told not to believe what she says. I know you are still trying to figure it out, but you can't, Petri. And when you ask her these type of questions, well it makes you look like you're glued to her every breath.

No, she was not speaking in some mysterious language. No, she is not in more crisis or a different crisis. However, you will be in one, if you don't stop trying to make sense out of nonsense. I mean, you even stumped her by your question of clarification. B/c it is all b.s. coming out of her mouth.

You can't fix crazy. Just let it be, and stop trying to figure it out.

[petri]

I know you are right. Detaching is hard. No matter where I am I can smell her, stumble on her shoes etcetc(I can't GAL all the time) That's why I need to get rid of this f-ing house. Start my own life. Be a better me. One that nobody thought could even exist anymore.

Don't say "why the pain". Don't say "why me". Say "try me"!

[LH19]

Some books ordered...
No more Mr Nice Guy
Codependent no more(actually found it in finnish!)
The Science of Likability
Superhuman Eye Contact
Make your bed (already got it)
You are a bada$$ (already got it)

P,

All these books are great but don't mean $hit if you are not putting what you learned into action.

Also, I read that you only retain about 10% of the information what you read in a book so you may have to read these books ten times to retain all the information.

[petri]

Then I must read these books ten times over and do what they tell me to do. Nothing will change unless I don't change. Now I say enough is enough. Now I take time for me. I have to be a little selfish if I want my kids to have the greatest dad ever. Now it is time to work on me. Forget about W and MR and OM. When I'm done with me, I'm the best me there will ever be.

Somehow I'm a little hyped now...but now is the time.

[LH19]

Then I must read these books ten times over and do what they tell me to do. Nothing will change unless I don't change. Now I say enough is enough. Now I take time for me. I have to be a little selfish if I want my kids to have the greatest dad ever. Now it is time to work on me. Forget about W and MR and OM. When I'm done with me, I'm the best me there will ever be.

This is all great stuff! Now stop fuching talking and start doing!

[GettinT]

Hi Petri,

Great that you have start taking steps towards GAL. Good mindset is to focus only to things what you can control (cannot control W, she does what she does) and develop yourself into a Man that if she goes, it´s her loss. You need to become a seller, not a buyer.
That´s my precept anyways, some days easier to execute, some days harder.
That´s actually the idea behind my pseudonym "GettinThere" as well - I´m on a journey in making a good life for myself, either with my WAW or by myself. Getting there, step by step.

I myself have been lurker here for few months now, but decided to register in just because of you. I´m also from Finland and if you want to discuss with a guy in Finnish who is experiencing similar situation just PM me and we´ll throw couple of emails or schedule a call.

Also, I want to use this opportunity to give credits to all great people at this forum who are struggling with personal challenges and taking time to help others simultaneously. You possess great wisdom, thank you for sharing that.

M: 39 W:38
S: 13 D:9
T: 15 M:14
ILYBINILWY: 5/2016
D filed: 11/2017
Separation: 1/2018


Edit - PM's do not work on this site and exchanging personal contact information is against the TOS - sorry - Cadet

[petri]

Ok Started reading the You are a bada$$ book. I suggest to stay away from it. While I was reading it...it was like W talking to about her reasons. "I have this feeling so I have to do this in spite of tearing our family apart." The book is based on Law of Attraction. What you feel is the true reality. And if you act on these feelings and going gets tough it is all about The Universe testing you if you REALLY want it. People people! It is a cognitive distorsion! If your both, concious and subconsious, awarenesses are not involved in making the decision...it is a wrong decision.

[petri]

Pir! Nice to "see" a fellow finn! I'm sorry you are in this sitch. Please start your own thread. You really need it. Take every little piece of advice you can from here. And check in every chance you get. And most important keep this to yourself. ALL OF IT. Remember this: you're not going to survive this. You're going to fight this! Because you are a warrior! If you want change, you have to change. We can get through this! We will get through this!

And yes. It would be nice to exchange contact info. Too bad we can't.

[petri]

Link to new: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2779171&#Post2779171