Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2

[SteveLW]

I have some advice on the confronting.

First sandi is right. There is no wrong or right time. Every situation is different. Take her advice on compiling enough evidence. Because once you confront that evidence will NOT BE AVAILABLE ANYMORE! The one thing WW wives get really good at is learning from their mistakes and going stealth. I could give you a laundry list of ways my WW has done that over the last 2 months.

When you do confront, do NOT BE SAD or NEEDY! That comes off as pathetic. Be firm, in control, but obviously angry. No yelling, but think of the stern father approach.

Lay your case out, the evidence you have, but also have a clear direction forward. Again deliver firmly, sternly, but in control.

"Your choices are A AND B." Have A and B clearly defined in your mind. Set the boundaries right then and there. Again do not play your cards. You can tell her that what your preference but be clear that IT IS HER CHOICE!! This is important. If you try to sway her to staying in the MR and working on things she will flee from it!

Lay out the choices, tell her it is up to her because, here is the thing, IT IS UP TO HER.

LBHs ask all the time: when will my wife change. The answer is so simple it is stupid: when she wants to. That may be now, that may be weeks, months or years, or it may be never! You have to be prepared for the worst.

When you confront her she will likely blame you, make excuses, deflect. ANYTHING but own up to her behavior. WWs do not take ownership for their behavior. They just don't. They can come with endless jusitifications for their actions. DO NOT ENGAGE HER ON THOSE. That is what she wants. Talking about her reasons for doing what she is doing deflects the conversation from WHAT she is doing. That is counter-productive.

Read all of Cadets links before confronting. Especially the validation one. Be ready to validate her feelings but not give in to her reasons.

She will start a lot of sentences with "I feel". Again, she is driven by emotions and feelings not logic. DO NOT TRY TO COMBAT feelings and emotions with logic. To a WW logic makes no sense. Only what she feels does.

Be prepared for her to rewrite history. "I was NEVER happy." "I never loved you." Lots of nevers and absolutes. Again this is driven by her current thoughts a feelings, and reasoning with her will not work. "You loved me enough to take vows of marriage with me!" "You loved me enough to have kids with me!" Etc. All may be true but she is not about truth right now.

2 major rules if and when you do confront:

1) DO NOT REACT EMOTIONALLY TO HER WORDS. She is going to say a lot of things, most of them not true (see rule #2) just to get at you. Be turtle with a hard shell and let them bounce off that shell.

2) BELIEVE NOTHING SHE SAYS. Her words will not match her actions.

One last suggestion, do not suggest MC. Just don't. She will agree because it lets her off the hook. She will go relunctantly so that later she can say "yes we tried MC to save the MR". If she brings it up, be open to it but set a boundary. "I will only do MC IF you are willing to fully commit back to the MR." Again, she may suggest it just to ease her conscience. That will become a priority to her after you confront.

When I confronted my wife she immediately said she didn't want to be married anymore. That then dominated the converstion and I let her off the hook for her EA. I also begged, pleaded, reasoned, made all kinds of offers, etc. Terrible behavior. My wife actually was very affectionate with me the next couple of days. Why? She was trying to ease her conscience. I asked her about it later and she said "Well I knew you were hurting and wanted to try to make you feel better." BELIEVE NOTHING THEY SAY! She was trying to make herself feel better!!

Good luck, and buckle up. If you do confront the roller-coaster ride will go from 5 to 10 immediately.

[rminer]

sandi, you posted while I was typing, so no I didn’t see your second post.

I am going to respond to both in this post.

I wonder if the laid back spouse begins to rely upon the outgoing spouse's personality when meeting new people, going to new events, etc. Do you know what I mean? Perhaps the quiet, laid back H feels that his W's personality will cover for his tendency to withdraw, shy away or not engage as enthusiastically, not appear as friendly or bubbly, or doesn't start up conversations with people he barely knows. Maybe you can answer this for me.

My W and I don’t go many places to meet new people, but yes, that can/does happen. When I am not in my element, I tend to sit back and assess people before I engage. This does make me appear not as friendly and I know this. Once I know what I am dealing with, I can start a conversation, but it will take a little while.

When you are with your WW in the presence of your children, do not act as if you are shunning their mother. Don't ignore her, but neither should you be totally focused on her. Treat her respectfully........but it doesn't mean you have to stand there as she verbally belittles you, or something of that nature.

I am glad to hear you say this as this is essentially how I have been handling things. We don’t talk a ton, but if she wants to join the conversation, I include her. She has been trying to join more and more conversations as of late.

Things are very civil now. She doesn’t attack or belittle. I have only had one instance in the past few weeks that I have had to draw a line with her, and that went well.

I encourage you to be careful when speaking about your WW. It is not a contest to see which side the kids choose.

I say nothing negative at all. I am letting the kids make up their own minds on this. I have outright told them I don’t want them to choose a side as their relationships with their mother is important. They are seeing what she is doing and are very upset with her about it.

If the kids are feeling the strain between you and the WW (and I'm sure they must), try to make plans with them for something fun on your day off work. Yes, you will need to put the house on hold......but your family is more important at the moment. No matter their age or gender, they need time with daddy.

They are feeling the strain quite a bit and have been striking up conversations about this sitch with me on their own. D14 and S8 have been asking me to do things with them like never before and D14 has come out and said that she needs to “get away” from the house. Her relationship with my W has soured quite a bit, so I am making it a point to take her somewhere a couple of times per week even if it is just for an hour or two.

I can’t really put the house on hold for financial reasons. We are living in it, so I can work on it most any time I like. To make more time for the kids I am limiting myself to days off only. On my days off I am getting up earlier and working four hours or so. I am finished by noon, leaving the rest of the day free.

I had some relatives who built their own house, and it took forever. The W told me they nearly D over it.

I KNOW this is part of the issue.

I want you to interact with your WW as if she's a checkout clerk. At least, as best that you can, under the circumstances. When you see her, smile and speak. It is fine to show a level of friendliness. Remember, you are Mr. Personality. If she is wearing something pretty, it's okay to compliment her. If she is cooking dinner, it's fine to comment about how good it smells, or tastes. Just make short, and don't keep on keeping on. That would be classified as overkill. The other thing to remember with complementing her is not to get too intimate or sexual, since she has OM. IMHO, I would not joke about sex, or imply you want to have sex with her.

In the 37 rules, if you are the one who usually starts conversations with your spouse, then don't initiate conversations, but wait for the spouse to start. The reason I included that rule is b/c many H's would talk too much to their WW. They would try to keep her engaged in conversation (either on the phone or face to face) b/c they saw it as way to get closer or fix the problems, when actually it was pushing her away. Most times, it would lead to a R talk, which needs to be avoided by the LBS. Those H's were too emotionally attached, and the WW sees it as clingy, needy, and unattractive. Most H's I see come to the board, say way too many words when they interact with their WW.......or they think the 37 rules are suggesting they don't say anything at all. The rules were designed to guide newcomers, until the couple has reconciled. If you have any questions about them, please ask me. In the meantime, you can say something to your W, but don't initiate conversations. You know the difference. BTW, if you aren't applying the 37 rules, I encourage you to do so.

I am SO glad you included this! I did take this in the 37 Rules as “sit in silence until she speaks” and that is not what I have been doing. It didn’t make sense to me to do it. We live under the same roof and the kids see how we interact, so I thought I was destroying this rule. How I have been handling it is by acknowledging her when I see her in the morning or at night. Maybe a follow up question about something benign that she doesn’t really have to put forth much effort in answering. Sometimes she will try to start a conversation about household things, which I engage in. They have morphed in to other conversations a few times, but I allow her to do most of the talking. My goal was just as you said – to not let her think I am ignoring her. We have not gotten close to an R conversation.

when you start going out, she'll expect you to tell her where, when, what, with whom, and when you will be home.

The few times I have gone out she hasn’t said a word about it. The only times I have gotten a reaction is the first time I went out and came home at 3am (forgot about this one in my last post) and the first time I wore cologne out (I NEVER wear cologne anymore). I got a very cold reception the following day on both of those, but nothing verbal.

I hope you won't misunderstand anything I've said. I am not telling you to "nice" your WW back, b/c it won't work. I am simply trying to give you a picture of how to interact with her. Has any of this helped you? Do you have questions?

Yes, it has helped a lot. I am doing the 37 Rules, but the interacting with her was the part I thought I was doing wrong because I do talk to her. I don’t initiate conversations, but I will say things to her first so she doesn’t feel that I am mad or ignoring her. When she speaks, I respond and let her keep talking if she feels like it.

However, I want you to stop obsessing about the confrontation. If you don't, then all this other stuff I have put out here on your thread the past two days will go in one ear and out the other, b/c all you can focus on is confronting her.

I don’t mean to obsess over it, but I do think of it a lot. That is the part of the whole process that scares me the most. That conversation will most likely determine the course of my M. If I do it wrong, it’s game over. I’m trying to prepare myself to do it right.

I am listening to everything you say and will be doing what I haven’t already started. I’m a planner, so I tend to gather information and prepare ahead of time, that’s all. I’m not going to confront her yet.

I think your male ego wants her to know that you know what she"s doing.

Hell yes it does! Honesty is something I demand from everyone around me – especially my family. This deception is driving me insane, especially since she thinks she is pulling one over on me. The lies are the part that I think bug me the most at this point. Once the details come out I’m sure that will change.

Do you see it as ending the A?

No, I don’t. Not at this point in time at least.

How will she see you returning to the fun loving guy you once were? Did you even read my second post?

I did, but after you posted your second post. I was typing while you were posting.

Your attitude and general lighter mood, & friendliness will send out more messages than you know.

This I have been faking and doing a pretty good job of it. Since I have been hanging out with the kids more, the attitude has been more sincere. I have noticed changes in her too that I am hoping are because of this. I was going to post about that today, but I am running out of time, so I will tomorrow.

Do you have something fun planned for this weekend? What are the ages of your kids? Better yet, why not give the information about you and W and the kids in your signature line.

Nothing planned at the moment. I gave D14 and S8 the job of deciding what they wanted to do Saturday night when I get home from work and Sunday afternoon. They are getting my whole weekend.

Kids are S23, D21, D18, D14, S8 – all in the signature line. So you don’t have to go look it up, D21 and D18 are both full time students commuting to college with full time jobs still living at home. S23 was a junior in college when he had to drop out due to medical reasons. Holds a full time job that is very willing to work around his medical issues. He still lives at home only because his condition will not allow him to live on his own at this point.

What you may have misunderstood in my previous post, was my reference to you spending so much time on the building project. Maybe I have it wrong, but aren't you doing that after you get off your regular job every day?

No, not any more. When we were trying to get in to the house I was, but since we moved in a few years ago, I only work on my days off. That plus normal maintenance and chores chew up a lot of time.

I don't you intended for this to sound like an excuse, but it kind of does.

You are right about this. Not intended, but does sound like an excuse. My work schedule is about 50 hrs/wk. 45 minute drive each way. Leave for work about 8am. Three nights per week I am not typically home until 9pm, two days I will be home usually by 5 or 6 pm. Off two days, usually Sunday and Wednesday.


That doesn’t leave a ton of extra time for much of a social life without being an absentee father, which I don’t want to happen. Staying out too late I don’t want to do either since this is one of the kid’s beef with my W. Occasionally they wouldn’t care because I never do it. Consistently, they would see me doing the same as her. I’m just going to have to walk a fine line on this one.

I don't know what you mean by her losing the kids. Maybe you'll explain.

I will explain in further detail in another post, but the kids are turning on her and are all but through with her.

If you want to really get her stirred up, wait till later in the evening, then put on your cologne and head out.

Fight fire with fire? This is exactly what she does. I have learned to ignore it, not asking questions or seeming to notice.

A lot of hard working men become their job. They lose themselves in their work. I am embarrassed to admit that I had many years under my belt before I realized that this is how most men show their love for their family. He is the provider and protector in the family. He wants them to have as good a life as he can afford. So, his whole life is work, work, work. Unfortunately, some wives forget to let her H know how much he is appreciated.

I am glad you understand this because this describes my life perfectly. Although my W used to tell me she was proud that I was such a hard worker, I don’t think she really understood why I was. Funny thing is, after having some heart to hearts with my kids, they knew why I did it and appreciate all I did. I never expected to hear that from them since most of it was “behind the scenes” so to speak.

I am encouraged that you followed up on my suggestion of the self-evaluation. This post is ending much better than I thought reading the first few words. I am not the best writer, and I don't mind answering anything you don't understand. I don't know all the answers, by any means........I am referring to something I have said that may not make sense.

I did and am still doing self-evaluation and let me tell you, it is painful. To really step back and look at your faults is not a fun thing to do, but I know in the end it will be worth it. I know I have never been perfect, but I can see many areas I can improve that I would have never seen before coming here. I guess I am still a work in progress.

Everything you are telling me is making sense. I have been making a list of questions that I will post in the near future. Hopefully you can answer some of them for me.

That's what I suspected, which is a good answer. I have seen some men who fit your dating history of not having an abundance of girlfriends......and they just turn to mush at the thought of losing a woman that treating him horribly.

I’m not as much of a mush ball as I think you might think I am. She is the only one (outside of my daughters) who has ever caused me to melt, but I do have my limits. I truly hate the thought of losing her – she is the only one I have ever seen myself going through life with – but I am not going to be treated this way either. I grew up watching this movie and that was enough for me. Don’t need to see it again.

I am not as cold hearted as I might sound at times. I have had divorce all around me, so I've seen good results and bad results.

I don’t think you are cold hearted. I think just the opposite. Why else would you spend your personal time here trying to help people who have played such a big role in screwing things up for themselves?

Sometimes you are blunt, but never taken as cold.

I do think you feel I am a PIA at times, which I don't mean to be. Maybe I am being overly cautious, asking too many questions that don't need to be asked or simply getting ahead of myself. I just like to prepare and know what I am up against. I'm your typical over-analyzer.

So, we are going to support you as best that we can, okay?

I do appreciate it, sandi. You are part of a great group here and I’m not sure if I could save this M or myself without your advice.

[SteveLW]

Other than you having more kids, rminer, look at our signatures. eerily similar!

[rminer]

I haven’t read your story from the beginning, sorry, but reading recently I understand how hard it can be to change the thought process. I to was a guy that would do anything for my family, my W, always trying to make sure she had everything she wanted but along the way I forgot about me and my life.

It certainly is a change of gears for me. I've never really given it too much consideration and just accepted it as normal. Funny how that works.

Today my wife text me wanting me to fix a logistical problem for her to make her life easier. Normally I would have jumped through hoops to make it happen. Today I just empathized and in a nutshell "Good luck figuring it out."


Feels strange not being the one to fix her problems anymore.

Suggestions I would make are to look for Meetup groups or FB groups in your area... ...Another thing I did was that I found a local sports team

Never thought of looking for groups like that. I will have to do that. Thanks.

We do have a pretty good OHL here. S8 loved going last year, so I bought some ticked for next weekend.

When you think she won’t see, trust me, she will especially since you are still in the same house.

Well, let's hope she cares then. She is so wrapped up in her own world, she doesn't seem to care about anyone or anything she once did any more.

[rminer]

I noticed that too. Was going to mention it, but got caught up answering sandi.

[sandi2]

I would like to add on to Steve's post about confronting a WW. I want to break down what confrontation is, and what it is not.

First and foremost, confrontation should ALWAYS be face to face. IMHO, it's not confrontation if it's not face to face. Don't do this through text messaging! The man needs to present himself as being strong and confident. He should be standing and posturing himself to show authority (hands behind his back). He is in charge here, and doing it over the phone or email......just shows her a weaker side of him. I realize we live in a tech society, but come on guys......be a man and face your betrayer.

Secondly, never let the W know the source of your Intel. Even if she guesses how you know. Even if you reconcile, don't reveal your source. Thirdly, it is not necessary to tell her everything that you know. In fact, you may want to keep that to yourself, in case it reveals a lie she tells you. And, fourthly, it is not necessary to prove you have evidence. Showing her the evidence and getting her reaction is not the goal of confrontation, Fifthly, the main purpose of the confrontation is to tell her you refuse to be in an open MR. Now, let me break this down.

As I have said many times, confrontation reveals to her that the H suspects, but she isn't sure of how much he knows. Most WW's will lie, play games (falsely portray remorse), lash out and blame the H, or get into a R talk. A lot of WW's announce they want to split assets and get a D. Some WW's will try to negotiate and tell the H she'll end the affair, but that she can't change jobs, or it's unfair to stay away from social events where OM goes, etc. In other words, she tries to appeal to her H's logic and tells him he is being unreasonable. . If that doesn't work, then she will accuse him of controlling, etc. Don't negotiate, don't argue. Just state your boundary.

If you expect remorse from her, you may be disappointed. You should not confront to get an reaction from her. Very few WW's have true remorse at the time they are confronted. They may feel some guilt at being caught, but feelings of remorse may not come till after she goes through affair withdrawal and begins dealing with her deep resentments. Remember, WW's feel justified to so the things they do. Most WW's never really intend to end contact with the OM, but will pretend to go along with it, in order to buy more time. So, getting the WW's reaction should not be the goal, b/c it can't be trusted.

Fewest of all WW's are those who repent and show humility for their betrayal and horrible treatment toward the H (at the time of confrontation). Even if your W should fall into that rare percentage, once the withdrawal craving hits.......she will still have to deal with it. She will be tempted to reach out to OM, in spite of what she said on the day of confrontation. She has to be accountable just as much as the most cold, hateful, hard hearted of WW's. A drug addict is a drug addict......regardless of how badly she feels about it. The affair has been her drug of choice. She will need a plan to follow, or she will not make it out of the gate.

The WW does not need "evidence" shown to her.....but she may demand it. The Intell is not to prove to her what you know. Some men have hired a P.I. and had a mountain of evidence, and the WW would still deny and lie. So if your goal is to get an admission of guilt from her, I think you might fail....even with evidence staring her in the face. How many criminals go to the pen proclaiming their innocence, but the evidence proved otherwise. Your decisions are not based on whether or not she confesses, but rather on the evidence/intell. I know many H's want to hear a confession, but even if he gets one......it should not change his boundary. Think about it. .

Funny, but so characteristic of women, she will be more focused on wanting to know what evidence you have and where you got it. Do not tell her the source! I've continued to repeat this statement b/c of it's importance. You are not required to present her with your evidence.......and besides, she'll just shoot it down. She'll use it to distract and confuse you. The intell is for your knowledge. She already knows what she has done!

Confrontation is not a courtroom where proof or innocence is established. You already know she is guilty. She knows she is guilty, but in the majority of confrontations, the WW will try to lie her way out of it. Now listen carefully. Do not argue, get mad, and reveal what all you know, trying to get her to admit it. Okay? Get that out of your head. Just look her at her sternly and say, "We both know you are lying". You are not Perry Mason, who always got the guilty to confess. Even if she confesses, it doesn't let her off the hook. A confession doesn't mean she's sorry. Being sorry doesn't mean she won't continue contacting OM. Do not melt or give a sigh of relief if she confesses. It does not change the state of affairs (no pun intended).

So now, you state your boundary. "I will not be part of a M that has three people" (or however you want to say it. "I won't stay in an open MR"). This is a very serious statement. You are not asking her what she wants to do! You are not telling her how much you don't want a D. (Most H's want to jump in and start assuring the WW how he doesn't want to get a D, or how he is committed to saving the M, or he tells her how devastated he feels). Do NOT tell her any of these things. Telling the WW how you feel will ruin the entire effect and purpose of the confrontation. It takes the spotlight off her cheating and puts it on your wants & feelings, which she could care less about, at the moment. It is not to argue her case! She's guilty and you both know it! And now, you've stated your boundary. Don't keep talking, trying to lay emotional guilt on her, trying to get a desired reaction or let her know how hurt you feel.

So now, you are telling her that you won't live in an open MR. This is the purpose of the confrontation. If that is as far as you get before she completely goes batsh't crazy......then leave the house. Don't try to continue, b/c you have stated your boundary, and that is really all that is neccesarry at this time.

After you state your boundary, don't express your personal feelings or desire to save the M. State a clear boundary that you will not continue in an open MR. This is usually when the WW will try to blame the H for everything (again). Remain calm, while she talks. If she begins to cry, do not show compassion. Do not put your arms around her, or touch her whatsoever. WW's use tears for manipulation. Remain strong and firm. If she is blaming you or throwing accusations at you......don't say anything in defense, don't argue. If she calms down and is not yelling and showing out of control behavior............or threatening to call the cops, getting physical, etc........ then you can softly validate that you hear her and you regret past mistakes and you're sorry she felt that way. But limit the validation to that one sentence and do NOT keep on & on. This is not the time to go into a relationship discussion again. This is about her affair, not your past mistakes. A WW will pull you into a R talk before you know it, so stay on your toes. This is not the time to talk about the past. Don't tell her how you are working to change, or any of that stuff. Confrontation is not about any of that, and and it distracts from the purpose here. It's up to you to control the conversation and stay on track.

The next step is to tell her the consequences if she continues contacting the OM in any way. That being, you will prepare to take necessary steps to legally end the M. Don't discuss who leaves, who gets what, how long she has, when to tell the kids........none of that stuff! This is where men mess up, b/c the WW will distract them and start talking about child custody or whatever. Stay on track and tell her you aren't going to discuss all of that stuff at this time. It may be really difficult, but you have to keep pulling her back to the topic at hand......which is your boundary.

If the WW is showing a lot of hostility, and especially if she is getting out of control and making threats to file trumped up charges, it would be better to end the confrontation without stating the consequences of her affair. At any point, should she start getting violent, the kids are scared, it's time to end it. Go outside, leave for a while, or something, but don't continue staying in her presence.

What I wish H's would get through their heads is that the WW should be concerned about what her H might do. No, I don't mean she should worry about violence from him, but what his plans are about D and how it could affect her. Most H's are so eager to jump in there and talk & talk about how he's going to work to change for the better, and commit to the MR......and "invites" her to commit with him. It all says one thing to the WW.......her H is a wuss! So, guys, please avoid making that mistake. This is the time to be Rhett Butler and tell Scarlett you don't give a #?%! Keep this short and simple (even if I can't explain it in a short and simple post).

If she is out of control (screaming, shouting accusations or threats, etc.), and if her emotional state does not appear to be receptive to hearing your terms to stay in the M,.......then save it for later. Recently, I had been explaining to LBH's what would be needed as stipulations for reconciling......and in some cases, I think it may have been a bit much to include at the end of the confrontation. So, you have to use your own judgment and see how your WW is responding (which is another reason to have face to face confrontation). I mean, if she doesn't care if you D her or not.......why would she care to hear your list of reconciliation terms? She won't. So, in some instances, it might be better for the H to wait until she asks him what it would take to keep the M together. But if he waits, and she doesn't ask and she continues contacting OM (and she definitely will), be prepared to physically separate......or file for D. But don't do any of this in-house separation business. That is nothing more than major cake eating for her, and terrible humiliation for him.

***************************************************************

The betrayed spouse is the only one who should have terms for reconciliation. WW's feel entitled to lay out conditions the H must meet..... but the WW is the offender.... and the betrayed spouse has stated his boundary.

If she wants you to stay in the M, then the following criteria should be met:

*She texts or emails the OM (in the presence of H) and sends to H's phone the same text message she writes OM, ..... Which states that their affair was the worst mistake of her life, and that she loves her H, and will no longer betray him. All contact between them will stop immediately, and she does not want OM trying to contact her. She will not acknowledge OM, and she doesn't want him acknowleging her......for any reason. Then the H reads it before she sends it. She is not to express anything, other than what the H instructs.

*After sending the letter/text, she immediately (in the presence of H) deletes all previous messages, contact information, and blocks OM (and OM's W) on her phone, email, social media, etc. All photos, letters, notes, etc. that are saved in separate files are to be deleted. All traces of OM, keepsakes from their A, gifts, etc. are to be destroyed. She does this in the presence of her H (else she won't do it, and she'll lie).

* If she works with OM, she must resign from her job and find employment elsewhere. If she belongs to the same organizations, social circles, etc. as OM, she must remove herself.

*She must agree to be completely transparent about her phone (and other sources of communication), her activities, and accountable for her whereabouts. She agrees that you can look at her phone/apps activity whenever you want......without asking her or giving notice. (For the record, she will claim you want to control her. This is not controlling, but giving accountability. She will go through withdrawals when she ends contact with OM. Her willingness to be transparent helps assure you the affair has ended, and it helps her through the withdrawals to give accountability. This will not last forever, but you do not give her a time frame. You do not tell her when you will check her phone, so she must have no secret password locks. Do not ask her to give you her phone. You check when she is asleep or in the shower, etc. The point is to not to cause more tension and hostility from her while you look at her phone). There are to be no secret friendships, especially with men.

* She gives you all pin numbers and/or passwords and does not change them without, first, notifying you. She is not to sleep with her phone, carry it in the bathroom while showing, walk out of the room to take calls, etc.

* She is not to take overnight/weekend trips without you. No Girls Night Out, or any other excuse to stay away from the house for any supcious period of time. Once you feel assured she is over the OM and your MR is making progress, then this requirement can begin to tapper off.

* She must agree for both of you to work with a professional therapist who specializes in couples healing from affairs. It's usually best if the H does the research and chooses the therapist, or she might pick one that is not pro-marriage and actually counsels couples how to be divorced and stay friendly! (This is important, b/c couples need guidance in piecing their M back together).

*. She agrees to sleep in bed with you (no children allowed). This does mean she is forced to have sex with you, but there will be no more separate rooms or sleeping arrangements. This is suppose to be a reconciliation.

Fair warning.......she will hate all of the above!

Transparency does not last forever. It usually tapers off. Some H's have reported going a year, maybe longer, without checking her phone. Then her behavior would get a little strange, so he would decide to check. Sure enough, she would be back into her old ways. Personally, transparency helped me, as a WW going through withdrawals. Once the withdrawal period is conquered, the H can lighten up some......but don't announce she no longer has to be transparent.

She will test his transparency plan. Most WW's will get by revealing as little as possible. Even if she appears to have a change of heart.......she really hasn't. She might be showing more cooperation, but the OM is still in her head. The affects of addiction could last for for six months......even longer. It depends on the individual woman, the sitch, etc. a good case scenario would be four months of hard withdrawals, then taper off for another eight. Every sitch is different, so I hesitate giving time frames. The only reason I give this scenario time frame is to let H's have some idea of what is in store.

Some men say, "Well, I can't control her. If she's going to cheat, she will find a way". That is very true. If the H can live with not knowing and her suspicious actions........that's up to him. But if he feels he has to see her putting forth effort to once again have a trusting and respectful relationship......then he can give her a chance to follow his transparency plan......or he can go ahead and divorce her. I only see three options to go. Remain as is; leave; or heal together.

Some MC don't encourage transparency. It is not punishment. It is accountability. It is her opportunity to show she is serious about ending the A and working on the MR. So, I hope you will have a MC who supports it.

Your W will have some hostility at first, especially if she is not remorseful for her betrayal. You aren't asking her to like it. You are asking her to agree to do it. It's her choice, but if she wants you for a H, she'll agree to your terms. Just remember.......that agreement does not fix her waywardness. Getting the OM out of her life will help, if she doesn't turn to OM#2, #3, etc.

Her feelings of love/desire for you cannot return until she gets the OM completely out of her head. She has to do the actions first, then the feelings will eventually catch up. It's not fun for her. It's awful. She'll feel as if she's withdrawing from a drug. She'll get angy, moody, and depressed. Ending the affair, is only a step. It does not end her wayward mindset. Only your W can change her mindset, but you can influence it a lot.

Don't push her about "feelings" once she agrees to transparency. All she needs to show right now......is willingness. Without her willingness, you have nothing. So, don't make a big deal about how she feels. She may make a big deal about her feelings, b/c a WW operates on feelings. But always come back to, "Are you willing"?

The H must understand that his W's agreement to his reconciliation terms......is not an automatic fix. After therapy, the withdrawals, lots of prayer, and tons of work......her natural loving feelings can return. On the other hand, there is no garantee, b/c it is up to her to do the work in her heart. I want H's to understand that his changes may be overtly, but most of the WW's changes will be in her heart. It is a process. A long, long process. He has to hold her feet to the fire about showing respect for him.......b/c that is what killed her loving feelings. So, she cannot disrespect him in front of the kids, him, or others. He can't stop what she feels in her heart.....but he can stop her outwardly disrespecting him. And, it will influence her heart and bring back the love.

He should not appear as her lord & master, nor her prison guard. However, he should NEVER underestimate the lengths she will go, in order to conceal her contacts with OM.

How can he tell if/when she's really changing? When her words/actions/attitude are parallel.

[rminer]

Wow, sandi. That is a lot to think about. Thank you for laying it out so clearly.

I think you are right when you say that the WW will deny it. My W is very strong willed and does not like to admit when she is wrong. She will definitely do this.

The WW does not need "evidence" shown to her.....but she may demand it... ...The intell is for your knowledge. She already knows what she has done!

I'm glad for the clarification on this. You kept saying not to reveal your source but get intell. It will be pretty obvious to her where the intell I gather came from if I show it to her.

The tough part about that will be suppressing my "male ego" as you call it. I will want to show her I'm not as dumb as she obviously thinks I am.


Now here is a H U G E "if" question. Say she becomes so guilt ridden she decides to out herself to me. Should my approach be the same?

I only ask because I know someone that this happened to. It is a very rare occurrence I know, but I thought it might be worth asking.



If we ever get to a transparency plan she will protest. Is it wise to explain the need for it? Somewhere you said that it was for the LBS's comfort in the process. Should that be said or something similar?

[sandi2]

FWIW, in my previous post, I was not suggesting that you should or shouldn't confront your W. I suppose I should have started my own thread, since I ended by writing a book on your page. I just wanted to explain in more depth about the issue of confronting a WW.

[rminer]

Oh, I know.


Keep posting good books here. I don't mind. It makes it easier for me to find them!

[sandi2]

Now here is a H U G E "if" question. Say she becomes so guilt ridden she decides to out herself to me. Should my approach be the same?

I only ask because I know someone that this happened to. It is a very rare occurrence I know, but I thought it might be worth asking.

Not sure what you mean by "should my approach be the same". Act as if you didn't know anything about it? I don't think that would be completely honest, do you? It's one thing for you to choose not to confront your WW about an A, and to focus on making changes on yourself. But to lie, if your W went to you so guilt-ridden she could not live with herself until she confessed her affair? No, I couldn't support that decision.

I think you should simply tell her that you knew....or had suspected (whichever is the case) and that after you gave careful consideration....you made the decision to make changes by changing yourself, first...........or something to that effect.

You never know how the other person will react when you tell them something, but if you lie or pretend you never knew/suspected........what does that make you? We have to do what we know in out soul is the right thing to do. Just as you feel the right thing for you, currently, is to make needed changes in yourself, rather than confronting your W about her A. That is your decision. It's your life to live. You may later change your mind, and decide you must get this stuff out in the open and settled......IDK. However, I'm pretty sure if you were to pretend you never suspected an A after she is eaten up with guilt........only to change your mind later, and tell her you knew all along.........that would not be a wise decision! I think our spouses are smarter than we often give them credit, and they certainly can read us like a book, if you know what I mean........so I don't suggest you pretend to be shocked if she should confess some day.

If I misunderstood what you meant, please explain.