Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2

[Accuray]

I never listen to her, how I always do whatever I want to do and she never has a voice in any important decision that is made.

Look at that language -- is she an adult or a petulant teenager? Do you really *never* listen to her? Do you *always* do whatever you want to do? Does she *never* have a voice in any important decision?

If you want an interpretation, here it is: when people break up a family relationship, particularly when they're having an affair, they feel horribly guilty.

No one likes to think of themselves as a bad person, so eventually they begin to convince themselves it's not their fault. If it's not their fault, then someone made them do it.

The only other person in the relationship is you, so YOU must have made them do it. Then they selectively start looking for any evidence to support what they want to believe, and re-write history to line up with their narrative.

It's nonsense. Don't buy into it. Your response to that tantrum should be to ignore it.

Acc

[rminer]

I miss him and I miss our family but he served me papers on tuesday.

Sorry to hear that, winner. That must be tough. The part I'm most scared of is losing the family. I sisnt grow up in a close family, but my W and I worked hard to make ours that way. Watching it dissolve is killing me.

Joy, huh? I would have never thought of that emotion.

[rminer]

the bottom line is he turned a blind eye to his Ws A and as far as I know a year later he is still suffering immensely.

I can imagine he is I wouldn't be able to make it that long. I hesitate because I've read on here that it has to be "right" time. The only time I can get her alone is in the car occasionally. I don't want to do it there because i want to read her body language. Getting her to talk to me about anything other than the kids or finances is close to impossible right now.

Her mood has lightened a bit in the last few days, so maybe soon I can.

[rminer]

I can't disagree with what you said. She knows it's not true and I know it's not true.

What about the "I'm not leaving because of the kids, by I can't do this forever" part?

Just buying time and stringing me along I'd suppose?

[Accuray]

She's just verbalizing her internal debate. She wants out, she feels guilty about the kids. There's nothing about you in that statement.

Before you confront her about her affair, ask yourself what you hope to accomplish by doing so?

Some people hope for an apology or some kind of show of remorse, I will warn you in advance that you won't get it. What you'll get is denial and anger, and if you come up with hard evidence you'll get even more anger.

You can confront her if you want, but be prepared that the result you'll get is more anger and more distance.

Therefore, before you confront, you have to think about what happens after that? Let's pretend worst case scenario she says "Yes I'm having a sexual affair and I'm going to keep doing it and don't care what you think about it"

Although most WAS don't say that directly, that's what their actions say repeatedly.

What are you going to do or say then?

You can't control her, you can't stop her from doing that if she wants to, and you certainly don't want to be a doormat, so what are you going to do?

Once you answer that question, you may be better served by just skipping to your next step. If you were going to demand she move out, then just start there and skip over the confrontation because the end result will be the same.

Acc

[rminer]

I am going to be in close proximity to the OM this evening and tomorrow at an event for my S8. My W will also be there since she helped set up the event.

The last time I saw the OM, he saw me and couldn't get away fast enough. This time though, he won't be able to leave so we will most likely encounter each other.

Question is, how should I handle it?

Should I avoid him or interact with him and act as if I know nothing?

If my W is with me at the time, is there anything I should/shouldn't do?

My plan is to just act as normal as I can, with the exception of maybe giving him a crushing handshake!

This isn't necessarily an opportunity to win her back, but it is an opportunity to make things worse.

[sandi2]

Hi, just wanted to pop in and tell you I have not forsaken you. I've gotten behind in some of the threads, but I'm trying to catch up.

I read the rest of your previous thread, and I wanted to tell you that after reconsideration, I do agree that you were right in trying to deesculate the situation with your out of control W in the car. It was so pitiful to hear how it scared your little boy. How does he seem now?

You may feel the need to protect the relationships between the children and their mom, but you cannot take responsibility for her relationships with her kids. It may be painful, but trying to cover up or make excuses for your W's bad behavior, teaches kids to keep dark secrets and not talk about what goes on behind the doors at home. I suppose you would know better than anyone, b/c of your own tragic homelife growing up. Your youngest children may even need to meet with a counselor, just to have someone outside the family to talk about their feelings.

I completely agree with Accury's advice. I tell H's that confronting their W about another man or suspecting an A is nothing more than a warning. It tells her you are on to her A, and she'll take it deeper underground. As Accury said, she will most likely deny it and then her fury will be unleashed on you. Which, IMHO, is a dead give away. An innocent woman would be stunned or concerned that she had done something to make her H doubt her faithfulness.......and then, she would do anything to assure him she loved him, and only him. However, the W who is guilty of any type of an A, will either get very angry or she'll gaslight him and make him think he's imagining it all.....or tell him they are just friends.

We have had many posters who reported about confronting their W about her A......with proof in his hands. Even having pictures of them in bed.......and her denying it's an A. Oh, the stories of how they went to a motel and started to engage in sex......but that she just couldn't go through with it. One W claimed she and OM were in the middle of intercourse, and she stopped the guy and left the hotel.....b/c she felt so badly about what it would do to her H. . Uh-huh.

Some H's want to confront, just to let the W know the he knows about it. Well, that's not a well though out plan. So what does he do after he reveals that he knows? What does he expect she'll do, once she knows her H is aware? See, this doesn't make sense to me, for a man to think that confronting his W with news he aware of her A will automatically cause an end to it. Even those rare accounts (I can count on one hand) that the W broke down and cried and promised to never see the OM again.......did not stick to her word. B/c it just doesn't work that way with a wayward W.

The H must have a plan. And the first thing is that the A must end the second he confronts his W. No more contact between the W and OM.......ever for the rest of their lives. That means she can't work with him, go to the same gym, let him coach her kids, share in community services together, attend the same social groups/friends, or go to the same church. If you don't believe me, then research affair addiction. The fact that you are concerned about how you should act around the OM, and your W and OM together........tells me you have no plan or idea of how to handle any of this.

By the time you get this post, last night will be over. So, you can tell us how it went.

My plan is to just act as normal as I can, with the exception of maybe giving him a crushing handshake.

This isn't necessarily an opportunity to win her back, but it is an opportunity to make things worse.

I am thinking you accidentally left out a word when typing that last sentence. Being a man who has the NGS, I suspect you meant to say, "it is an opportunity to not make things worse". B/c that is how nice guys operate. They don't want to ruffle anyone's feathers or cause waves.......and although he will be thrown in the mix of OM and his W, he figures he'll just act as if everything is perfectly fine, so things won't get worse. Don't misunderstand. I'm not suggesting you should intentionally cause an embarrassing scene, or choose that occasion to tell OM you suspect an A. I'm just pointing out how a man with NGS thinks. You don't want to make things worse, so does that mindset cause you to put up with situations you should not have to tolerate?

I'll be fair and say you did not want to cause a public scene last night. At the same time, I'll ask you to examine yourself to see if this your approach toward most things in your life. You want to smooth things over, deesculate, prevent it from getting worse, etc. One would probably agree that makes good sense in most cases. We should conduct ourselves in a polite, civil manner.

Remember when I was talking about the Alpha vs the Beta male? The difference in their thinking about this situation would be that the Beta male would agree with you all the way on the decision to not do anything that might make things worse. Then he would keep his resentment and sense of injustice pushed down in his soul, like he normally does. However, the Alpha male would be more like......."I am not going to pussyfoot around and play nice with some guy I suspect of being inappropriate with my W". Again, I'm simply using this example in pointing out the differences in the two mindset. Most Alphas are much cooler than my example.

There are varying opinions in how to approach or deal with this stuff. Some say to ignore OM, drop the rope, act as if you are dumping her, and move forward in making a life for you and your kids. Some people say you should expose the affair, b/c covering for it is no solution.......plus it eats away at your self respect and confidence. I am just telling you that I have very little faith in the MR genuinely getting better by simply trying to wait out an affair to end. The issue that led her into an A with OM#1, will lead her into the next A, and the next, if the MR doesn't change. None of these suggestions are a quick fix to the MR. Sadly, some H's associate fixing their M problems with meaning his W ends her A. It is usually more complexed than just ending an A, and then everything bounces back to whatever was "normal" in the MR.

So, like I said, you need a plan based on your values, standards, principles, and spiritual beliefs. Decide what type of changes you need to make as a man. Get as much information as possible. Be realistic, maintain balance, and don't make some big move before checking here.......b/c you really could make things even worse.

[rminer]

sandi, thank you for responding. I thought that maybe my last response had offended you and caused you to throw your arms up and give up on me. 

It was so pitiful to hear how it scared your little boy. How does he seem now?

Thank you for asking.   He seems better, but he is still upset with her.  This past week she has been in a much better mood (more on that later) and she has been paying more attention to him.   He has made a few more comments to me about not being happy with her, but I think she is trying to make it up to him.  Hopefully it continues.

You may feel the need to protect the relationships between the children and their mom, but you cannot take responsibility for her relationships with her kids. It may be painful, but trying to cover up or make excuses for your W's bad behavior, teaches kids to keep dark secrets and not talk about what goes on behind the doors at home.

I'm beginning to realize that.  I have always wanted them to grow up with a "perfect" family life.  It's hard to watch it slip away.

The only thing I'm really covering up is the A. The rest they are picking up on their own.  After my last talk with D21 I've stopped defending her.  I'm not skewering her, but I'm not defending either.   To S8 I'm just telling him mom is going through a rough time in her life, but to remember that she still loves him.   Not sure how much he really needs to know at this point.

The H must have a plan. And the first thing is that the A must end the second he confronts his W.

I don't have a solid plan yet.  Ive been thinking about it a lot, but haven't decided on anything yet.  I'm reading th DR book for the second time, so I will be putting something together soon. 

I've known about the A for almost two months. I think my W would probably use the against me saying i dont care. If it were reversed, I'm 95% she would have called me out by now.

By the time you get this post, last night will be over. So, you can tell us how it went.

Both days were over by the time I saw this,  but I think it went fairly well. 

The first evening the OM and I were passing each other in a hallway, he said "hi," I said "hello," keeping a low tone and acting like he was of no concern to me.  Later he came up to S8 with me standing there and wished S8 happy birthday.  He then felt the need to explain to S8 and me that he keeps all of the kids' birthdays in a spreadsheet so he doesn't forget them. When he looked at me near the end of the explanation,  I just looked him in the eyes, made the "huh" sound and gave him the "you really don't want to be around me right now look."   He came up to me and my son again later and I gave him the same look.  He didn't come near us the rest of the night.   He only spoke to my W once that I saw. 

Today was a little different story.  The OM came to me on six occasions to talk.  Me alone two times, with S8 two times, with D14 once and with W once. The shortest interaction was when W was there.  I watched all day and he only spoke to W three times, all for less than 30 seconds. 

The approach I took today was similar to what the 37 rules say.  I wasn't unfriendly, but I didn't say much either.  I looked OM square in the eye and went for the "alpha" approach.  He had trouble keeping eye contact.  If that was from guilt or intimidation I don't know, but he was definitely the "beta" in the interactions.   The only time I strung together more than one sentence was when he was bragging about something.  I shut him down pretty quickly when he started.    After he left when D14 was present, D14 said "I've never liked him very much."   I must have had a big smile because she asked me what was so funny.

I'm not sure why he was so anxious to talk to me today - he has never approached me that much before.   Maybe he is trying to show me nothing is going on or maybe feels he knows me better now.  I'm really not sure.  It was strange though.  I did not expect that someone having an A with another man's wife would want to talk to the H so much.

I am thinking you accidentally left out a word when typing that last sentence. Being a man who has the NGS, I suspect you meant to say, "it is an opportunity to not make things worse"

No, I meant it was an opportunity to make things worse.   If I don't like someone I have a tendency to be very blunt and say exactly what is on my mind and it has gotten worse over the past few months. I could see that happening and me tipping them off that I know about the A or worse.

I definitely didn't want to make a scene because that would have just embarrassed everyone. I didn't want to be chummy with him either for obvious reasons, so I tried to play it in the middle, but dominate.

I'm taking this "Alpha vs. Beta" thing to heart.  I've been very conscious of how I am presenting myself over the past two weeks, especially at home.

plus it eats away at your self respect and confidence.

Yes, it does.

I am just telling you that I have very little faith in the MR genuinely getting better by simply trying to wait out an affair to end. The issue that led her into an A with OM#1, will lead her into the next A, and the next, if the MR doesn't change.

This what I'm still not sure about.  What went wrong besides what you have pointed out?  She has said so many things, its hard to pinpoint what it was exactly.   I've got a few things in mind that I will mention in my next post.   This past week was interesting and I would like your opinion on it.  It may/may not tie in to what she is (was) actually looking for from me.

[sandi2]

I've known about the A for almost two months. I think my W would probably use the against me saying i dont care. If it were reversed, I'm 95% she would have called me out by now.

No, that's the thinking of a LBH, not a WW. However, you are right about things being reversed. She would not have tolerated an OW, like you've tolerated the OM. That's probably the differences in her personality and you being a nice guy. I have learned that that's how it usually goes with couples, when the H has NGS. I have observed this my entire life, and I studied the NGS, plus all the years of being on the board.....I definitely see a pattern in their relationships.

I think you did a decent job handling the public situation with the OM. I think he may have been fishing, to see if he could detect any vibes from how you interacted with him. Your W may have even said something about wondering if you know. But, that's idle guesswork.

I commend you for taking the Alpha vs Beta, seriously. FWIW, I married a very good man. He had the NGS. He still does, and always will to some extent. However, life has changed him a lot. It is much better if a man makes changes in himself, rather than wait for life to force it on him.

I am certain it is challenging to change, but it is very possible. There was a board member here for quite a few years, who admits to being the nicest of nice-guys. He learned to change the dynamics in his MR, and I assume in his other relationships as well. His first user name was Ole Chocolate Eyes, then he changed to Puppy Dog Tails, and finally to Starsky. I think his old threads were deleted, and I haven't seen him post in a long time. But, if you ever run across one of his old posts, grab it. He is a star to many who traveled through the forums on this board.

[Deckard]

His first user name was Ole Chocolate Eyes, then he changed to Puppy Dog Tails, and finally to Starsky. I think his old threads were deleted, and I haven't seen him post in a long time. But, if you ever run across one of his old posts, grab it. He is a star to many who traveled through the forums on this board.

Starsky, and sandi2, are on my Mount Rushmore of these forums. You can see Starsky posts here:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=userposts&id=28254