Thank you. This seminar is for therapists and is intense. I feel almost likeI have been running a marathon emotionally. I'm excited to go this last day, but I'm also exhausted.
An interesting part of this is the pursuer/ distancer piece. It is broken up a bit more. We learned that the pursuer, also referred to as a blamer when in conflict and the distancer, or withdrawer in conflict, can become so disheartened that their entire way of being changes. Then the pursuer becomes a burnt-out pursuer who withdraws, and the distancer starts to pursue, but in gradually building, confused and frustrated attack mode.
Looking back, my XH pursued me throughout the early part of our marriage. He did things to woo me, sacrificed his own needs much of the time to make me happy. I enjoyed the pursuit and just...well, sat back and enjoyed it. I felt I did a lot for him as a wife and was also being a mom, but as I said...I wasn't actually "hearing and understanding" his expressed needs. It took hearing the exact words he had spoken to me repeated in the materials and videos, and hearing the explanations by the men and women saying them as they delved deeper into their core emotions of loss, fear of loss, loneliness and lack of worth, for me to realize even more what was happening.
This has beeen a journey and will continue as one. I am not satisfied with just moving on. Is it healthier? I guess that depends on your idea of health. I'm going to have to listen to couples who come to me for therapy. I'm not a counselor...I don't sit in a chair giving advice. My choice to become a therapist means I need to listen to others and meet them where they are and help them move forward by walking beside them so that they have the skills to leave me and function on their own. Getting in there with them means I need to discover and own my own S#!t as much as I can, so it doesn't pop out in a session and add to my client's pain or confusion. I've already experienced a therapist's countertransferance...I sat for half a session listening to her talking about her XH. Should have sent her a bill.
Yeah...it hurts to dig that deep. It hurts to realize that XH was trying for so long to please me while not ever feeling safe enough to discuss the deeper fears that were below his actions. He had dreams that he sacrificed to try to make me happy. I saw it as sweet and sad that he cried when we left our rental home on a lake. when he turned to me with tears on his face and assked, "doesn't it make you sad to leave here?" I thought I was being brave and strong and supportive to tell him that yes it was sad, but that it was exciting to build our own home! I didn't realize that although I was excited to finally be able to have horses and property, his dream was to have a home on a lake. Both of his grandparents had that and it was the source of all of his happy memories in a turbulent childhood. I just liked the idea of having my horse near me. No wonder he said he no longer was thinking of what I wanted when he made his later decisions. He realized that those things I wanted were just wants, not powerful dreams. He worked his back end off for my wants, while pushing aside his dreams that were in reach. I own my selfishness and blindness. I'm not beating myself up. Just finally getting it. And many of the other things that hurt him.
I now see his depression as the fallout from when he was burning out in his pursuit of me. He was done. He even told me, "I have no goals anymore." He was depressed ...and lost. When he chose to pursue his own goals "despite of me" (his words) and start finally trying to love himself, I saw it as him being selfish and in MLC. My anger is now gone. I tried before and only touched the tip of the iceberg. That is just one of the many things that is flooding me right now. My memory is too good. I'm sure there is much more.
So, yes. I should "move on". But I'm going to apologize if he will allow. He has done so many tentative reach-outs. I owe him the apologies for every thing that I can think of if he'll hear me. It will make me feel that I have done what I can. And it may ease his guilt and shame and make him feel less alone and more heard. Feeling unheard is such an isolating feeling. It can turn your stomach into a twisted knot. His biggest physical complaint.
M-51 H-54 2D-27 and 25 M-26 yrs Bombshell and IHS 7-29-15 He moved out 10-3-15 D filed 1-27-16 D final 10-27-16
I did a "reach out" to XH through text, asking if he would meet to talk. He and I met for lunch and I was able to apologize and let him know that I thought I might have finally figured out what he was trying to tell me about how he felt in certain specific instances in the past. He seemed touched that I had made the effort to understand, and that my interpretation was right. We had pleasant conversation, interspersed with more of my attempts to apologize/seek validity for my interpretations of ways I now realized I had hurt him.
On his part, he seemed to want to make sure that I realized that he didnt think I needed to change (I told him I did and was). The other part...um...his door is not shut. We had a very nice hug at the end of our talk. I let him know I missed talking to him as a friend. He said we would talk again soon. That is enough for now as far as I am concerned. Will life come crashing down on my head if we never speak again or he freaks out on me in some imperceptable way? No. I'm happy with that for now. Back to my books.
M-51 H-54 2D-27 and 25 M-26 yrs Bombshell and IHS 7-29-15 He moved out 10-3-15 D filed 1-27-16 D final 10-27-16
Hi ciluzen, There's something so dignified about your recent interaction with your ex h. The fact that were cognizant of your actions and behaviors and how they may have affected your xh just demonstrates how far you've come on your journey (and your scholastic learnings). It takes a strong, independent (detached) person to be able to look someone in the eye and own up to the subtle intricacies that may have affected your xh deep down.... When in fact, it was the two of you simply being human. Nothing you did was intentional. You didn't hurt your ex on purpose. We can barely see ourselves clearly, let alone those around us... It's no wonder that we constantly "bump into" each other with out even knowing it.
It was very brave of you to make those internal assessments and then apologize for them. Very brave indeed.
Lastly, the eft work sounds interesting. I've done some similar stuff (more of an emphasis on neuro linguistic programming) and while it is sooooooo intense, there's something To be said about having to relive those painful memories. It's carhartic, but then having the opportunity to do something with it (by changing modalities or looking at it differently) can be life changing. kudos to you for all the work you are doing and all you are experiencing. I have profound respect for you.
Me- 30's H- 40's T-10 M-5 I moved out b/c he wanted space- June 15 D filed by H: September 16
Hi Cil, I too think it was brave to have that talk with your XH. The fact is, we aren't born knowing how to have good relationships with a spouse. And we learn (or don't) from our life experience. Looking back I can see ways in which I could have been a better partner. And also been more present for myself too. These are good things to recognise and work on going forwards.
I have no interest in any possible reconciliation with my XH. However, I do feel it would be good to lay some things to rest at some point. Perhaps even meeting up for coffee might be a healing thing. But that may or not ever happen. I just don't like the scenario of having had an intimate relationship with someone, only for that to become a void, a rift. I don't think that is a healthy situation for anyone and it would be good to heal that.
I guess I'm trying to say - good for you to have processed and initiated and communicated in that way. It sounds like it was a healing conversation for you both.
Every good wish to you Cil xxx
T 13 M 7 Me 48 H 46 SS 15 BD 7.14 PA D final 5.16 (H filed)
We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
Hey everyone; Pinn, Sotto, bttrfly, Pax...thank you for the support and input. It's always nice to have others who have been walking this road to talk with.
Whew! What a year! I have just finished the first year of my master's program and the hardest semester so far...for everyone. We all are not only taking pretty intense classes, but seeing clients at two different sites. I'm awake at 5am and sometimes don't get home until 9 at night. Part of the intensity is that we are all having to face our own demons...in our clients. I've seen individuals with symptoms of depression, anxiety, loneliness, confusion and so,so much past trauma of all kinds and levels. I've seen families dealing with substance use issues and grief and loss of loved ones. And couples...lots of couples trying to find ways to communicate with each other and be understood.
I find that in trying to understand and empathize, I see something of myself in all of them, and I learn more about myself or those close to me by listening so closely to these clients. By helping them I am helping myself. Selfish, maybe. But it seems that there really are no unique emotions; just unique perspectives.
We all say "let go" in these forums, but I'm realizing that its complicated...very complicated. In trying to understand yourself and your spouse, you can't help but have them on your mind. And we all want to understand what happened, at least at some point, so they are on our minds a lot. I feel that those who are able to let go best are those who end up staying angry in some way. Angry at how they were treated or, since it is more acceptable, how their children are being treated or are suffering. If you can make your spouse into a crazy, selfish, even personality disordered narcisist or borderline man or woman, it's so much easier to move on and away. The people we used to have loving relationships with won't tell us what's going on in their heads and they won't trust us to help them so the behavior is bizarre to us. We try to see their side and try to find our part in the demise of the relationship, maybe even beat ourselves up a bit; but with no input from them and often no spouse present to even ask, or no comfortable way to speak honestly to them any more, its easier to go back to our feelings of anger...and moving forward and away.
In my own life, I'm realizing I have know idea what will happen. My ex and I have talked a few times, but I realize he talks around the subject of "us", dropping cryptic metaphors while gazing at me intensely as if willing me to understand what he can't find the ability or strength to say directly. He's talked of how "people" should accept apologies and forgive the apologizer. How one can only do so much to save a tooth (he's a dentist) befoere it just needs to be pulled. He recently suggested to my daughter that she "kill two birds with one stone" and invite me to celebrate her birthday with him, I believe the first time that he ask that I be included in his plans with the girls (I usually invite him for holidays). He ended up not allowing me to pay and the two of us spoke in the parking lot for over an our afterward. He also called to wish me a happy Mother's Day for the first time since he left.
I'm more and more ok with being on my own, but that becomes another issue to wrap my mind around. People who know me, including my therapist, seem to love asking me if I think we will get back together or what would I do if we did. I used to think all of the time about that, but now I'm not sure how that would even look. He likes to keep me up on what our (his) friends children are up to and what he does or thinks about. He specifically avoids certain subjects (Bubbles and her family). But I sense that he wants to be near me, to talk to me more, but he is afraid. I feel that he is afraid that he will (again) do or say something that will cause me to become hurt or angry and that I will react the way I did before...with anger. I now realize how deeply that would hurt him...that he had lots of experience as a child with being screamed at and punished for doing something that he thought was fun, but found out was "wrong" when he would get in trouble.And getting in trouble in his family was traumatic.The rules were chaotic. Sometimes things that most people thought were bad were encouraged in his family. Things that many people think are good were made fun of or seen as bad. You didn't always know the rules unless you broke one. Obviously, anxiety was a family trait.
Anyway, again; I don't know what it would look like to be back with him if that was attempted. I still love him, but I see him as a child that needs comforting...less as a husband. Yet I still love talking to him...we still somehow have that strange connection that we had when we first met. He obviously has it , too. But there just seems to be so many things in the way. And I have so much to do on my own theses days, while he seems to be surrounded by both support and responsibility.
M-51 H-54 2D-27 and 25 M-26 yrs Bombshell and IHS 7-29-15 He moved out 10-3-15 D filed 1-27-16 D final 10-27-16
Cil, I always love reading your posts. I do think some of us really do have to deal with the personality disordered though. I'm not claiming to have the worst on the block, but as far as I can tell, he has been a lot more destructive than yours has.
Did you ever read, forgive me if I'm wrong, I think it was hopefloats posts? If I recall, her H was a lawyer. They ended up getting divorced and then eventually remarried. I think her situation sounds so much like yours. If you haven't read them, or read them in a while, maybe do if you have time. I think a lot of what she wrote will sound familiar to you.
Seems to me like he is working his way there, it is just going to be a while. You are doing what all of us are supposed to. You are really working on you and moving on for yourself. A true testament to healing.
I'm going to work on my patience and my kindness. I'm going to try to be more understanding and less reactive. I want those things for myself.
Yes, of course some will be truly dealing with spouses with MH issues. I don't doubt that at all. There are so many that go undiagnosed and just seem angry, depressed or "strange". I get that. My point was that pesonality disorders have become known by the general population...but so misunderstood. If someone is perceived to be acting in a selfish way or seems to crave positive attention, they are a narcissist. If they go back and forth between loving and hating, anger and kindness, or happy and sad...borderline. A few years ago the general population would say "bipolar".Never mind that they are totally different disorders with symptoms that, when seen together, create different pictures entirely. My own daughter (youngest) was just diagnosed with BPD. She has many of the symptoms. However, one could also look at her history and say that she was diagnosed as having anxiety and depression by one doctor and put on meds with no therapy, which led to inconsistant intake of meds with no follow-up; then another doctor decided it was due to ADD and put her on Adderall (a big no-no if the person truly has anxiety and not ADD) which sent her into a major bout of gen. anxiety which then coincided with her work with often violent at-risk teens that then set up PTSD. With anxiety and PTSD her amount of fear caused her to grab onto anyone that seemed to care for her and not want them to leave her alone, but also have extreme emotional reactions when threatened or when she felt threatened or as if she was going to be abandoned. So anxiety plus PTSD also look a lot like...BPD. Diagnosing can be tough even for those in the MH field when the info isn't all there to see. Its even harder when our own emotions and bias get in the way.
I know my own did. I remember my ex screaming at me one night, inches from my face, eyes wide...totally out of character for him. I called him crazy...yelled it at him. Then I left, feeling afraid of him for the first time ever. Looking back, I realize that he himself was desperate and afraid and very, very overwhelmed. I could have just shut up and listened to him before we got to that point, but I felt the need to offer him advice and tried to get him to see things from someone else's (his boss's) point of view. Pretty sad when even his own wife wasn't listening to him and being on his side. How alone can that make someone already overwhelmed feel? And I just labeled him "crazy". I really dislike labels now. They really do often shut the door to understanding a person, rather than explaining behavior.
Anyway, that was a long rant. I have read some of Hopefloats' posts, but not the part about her remarrying. I might go back and take a look again.
I do think about XH a lot. I'm tired of trying not to. I became rather disgusted with the last foray into dating and decided for now that I don't want to expend the energy in that disappointment. I saw too much fear or desperation in men who just didn't get it. I don't need someone to take care of me and protect me...the world is not a big scary place to me and I'm not some damsel in distress. I don't need a "white night" who is really just afraid of the world and won't admit it but needs someone by his side because he's too afraid to go it alone. That's a lot of what I ended up with.I don't want that.
I'm pretty happy with what I have and where I'm going.I do miss XH, though. Not the thought of him, as some have suggested. Him. And all of his flaws. He seems to be facing a few...don't know what his conclusions will be. So I'm figuring out who I am without him. My time is full. I thought I was supposed to be on break from school, but with internships and all of the things I'm doing...well, I guess it is a break from homework, LOL.I have roses to plant, hikes to do, movies to see, friends to hang with...life to live.
I'm glad you are working on patience and kindness. I found for myself that just working on kindness brought patience and understanding along for the ride. It takes time and practice, but I think its worth it. I still get upset and emotionally reactive at times, but I'm getting better at this. So will you.
M-51 H-54 2D-27 and 25 M-26 yrs Bombshell and IHS 7-29-15 He moved out 10-3-15 D filed 1-27-16 D final 10-27-16
Ciluzen, very interesting posts. I do enjoy reading your views about this. One that is resonating with me is letting go and how very complicated it is. I believe you have detailed the root cause of the complication very well. We all want to understand, to have some kind of a reason.
I do appreciate your dislike of labels and how it shuts the door to understanding a person. I was thinking about how labels limit viewing someone on a deeper level. Even someone with a positive label receive some form of prejudice.
I am glad you are doing so well, and I love reading your well though out posts.
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
