Gaslighting or selfish, naive and blind...

[ciluzen]

Time for a new thread.

Squinting at the morning sun

Thank you all for your kind words of support and perspectives. I will respond more thoroughly to individual thoughts soon. But, now...things that make you go "hmmm".

I wrote what I've experienced, but anything coming from anyone is tainted by their own view and experiences...and feelings. The truth between two people's differing stories is always somewhere in between. I know this, and I always try to remember and make sure that when I speak to others about my perceptions that I try to remember that the other person's truth may be different. What are people whispering or yelling into their ears? What are their past experiences, their little angel and devil sitting cross-legged on their shoulders shouting at them? I can't hear theirs; they can't hear mine.

XH called out of the blue after I had written my thoughts here; later in the afternoon. I immediately assumed one of the girls had called him, but I confirmed later that they hadn't.

I was cold and he asked after a bit if I was pre-occupied or studying (I was...but ruminating still and having a hard time of it). I was angry still. Very angry. He sounded like a little boy trying to figure out his mother's tone of voice; is she angry at me? Is she angry? Something else? He sounded sort of ...not cheery...maybe light? Like he wanted to help lift my mood. If he was next to me (old H) he would have given me a poke in the ribs or a quick lean and bump with his shoulder while smiling at me...are you ok, type of thing. He told me he had called because D25 had borrowed the truck and he knew and was happy for me that she was finally going to move the rest of her stuff out of the basement.

So I told him. I said, I've always been honest with you, so I'm not going to lie now." I didn't tell where my info came from, but what it was. That I keep getting stories from former friends, patients who I dont even know that recognize our (uncommon) last name, friends of friends, and even those who I am still friends with who work in or around his office. I also told him the girls had found something that pointed to a physical affair, but that was their story to tell. He was quiet for a bit, but then said...not even defensively...you've got it all wrong. He sounded sad. He hesitated, but then gave me excuses for everything. I purposefully use excuses, leaving no real judgement on his truths or lies. Although he is very intelligent, I've seen him be clueless and naive about things before. As if something was missing when he grew up that rendered his point of view on some things as very childish...or child-like. I won't go into detail on what he said, but as much as I want to be angry...god help me...given what I know and have seen of that disconnect...I heard that little boy speaking that wasn't trying to be bad, but somehow effed everything up because he was trying to do what felt right at the time but didn't have the experience, foresight, or ability to see how others might view his actions.

Yeah...I can feel the breeze from the wind-up of the approaching 2x4s.

Facts. We are divorced. We live separately. I keep hearing from others how angry/disappointed/confused they are about his actions, which matches and perpetuates my own. He expressed how he wishes they wouldn't do that to me. I explained that he always told his kids to behave by saying that people judged him based on their actions. Why would you not expect them to also judge you based on your own? You say you don't know what to tell people about your own kids, because of what they do. I told him, "tell them that one is working at a day care and the other is doing x full-time, y as a start-up business with her H, z part-time to make ends meet, and is a tatoo artist because she enjoys it. You should be proud of their work ethic, independence, strength and big hearts. Why is that so hard. Why are you so worried about how your kids appear, while you are showing the world that you SEEM to be having an inappropriate relationship with another man's wife?".

So his responses? That I didn't like 50% of him (I refuse to argue his assumption about my feelings anymore, but at least the percentage is dropping and he doesn't sound as sure, lol) He admits his decisions were to do what he wanted to do, and that he made them without thinking about me at all. That now, he wanted to have as little effect on my lfe as possible and he wanted me to have as little effect on his as possible. So...(working on confronting dysfunctional thoughts lately in school) I pointed out that HE CALLED ME. He got quiet again.He said, "do you not want me to tak to you? Would that be better?" I told him I was not in charge of his decisions.Then he told me again that he was genuinely happy that my basement would be mine, once more.

This was a very calm discussion. We talked about our daughters, he asked about a med procedure I had (yay hitting 50!), and then he complained about his staff and how they were not talking or fighting and they were having a meeting together about it. He was going to tell them he was the boss and that they should do what he says and that they should establish their pecking order from there. So, I validated his good decision to call a meeting. I asked he wanted a heads-up on their perspective. He said yes. I asked if it was true that Bubbles had started calling herself the office manager and storing her stuff in his back office and using his restroom and eating back in his office with him since the D, as I'd heard. Because if it was so, he had established a pecking order within the office that placed a part time, hourly emplyee with an intimate relationship above all of the full-time salaried employees. He reiterated that THEY should establish the order. I reiterated that HIS actions or acceptance of hers had created the problem. He finally GOT it, after stubbornly refusing to see it from any other view than his own.

He really has a hard time seeing from anyone else's point of view. He is very child-like in his need to get what he wants, despite his own actions. And yes, I tend to overthink the "why's", accept or empathize maybe too much, and give people too many chances because of it. We are both very controlling in our own ways, and get very frustrated and emotional when triggered by that which we can't control.

So, gaslighting? There are big lies...supposedly to protect his ability to selfishly do what he wanted and not hurt me. But very, very, wrong behavior. NOT what you do with someone you've vowed to love, honor, and cherish. And the implication of impropriety is very much there. I'm not blind, but clueless and selfish have been present in his behavior forever...just overcast with caring, giving, supportive and loving behavior in the past. As that wore thin as his attention turned to another, those traits became glaring...balance was lost. I believe I lost balance, as well, as my jealousy, anger, and low self esteem overshadowed my own good traits.

It could be gaslighting. It could simply be as I said above...our distractions causing our less desireable traits to take center stage in our relationship. Triangulation can do that. Pointed things aren't really stable or easy to balance.

Also, I've recently read someone on Newcomer's latest threads. She found that her H had been reading her posts. It has occurred to me a few times that my XH might have done the same (timing of calls, etc). These are my thoughts...I will not hide them. There is nothing to defend. Just a process towards understanding and working through pain. If he's reading, maybe he can get a tidbit of info that will help. If not, maybe someone else will.

I know this is long, but I like to try to help people understand what I am saying, even when I'm off-balance. I will be fine. I'm at the lower end of processing this latest series of events.

[OwnIt]

I'm so glad you posted. Your thread got locked and I couldn't respond.

What I was going to write was that, as suggested by the famous Brandeis quote, "sunlight is the best disinfectant."

For so many years he has been able to walk among everyone in his life with his head held high as some kind of noble gentleman, who, while a good guy, just didn't want to be married anymore.

Instead, he is an adulterer of a woman who is a tyrant to those around her and uses her influence to have her way while her poor cuckolded husband dodders along looking the fool.

I was going to suggest that you tell him what you knew and that you go so far as to tell her husband. Aren't you after all irate that these people never told you.

I know there is a lot of to do over whether to reveal, but the circumstances here are different. I'm not saying you need to publicly shame him, but I'm so happy you told him.

If he and Bubbles carry on, then at least it is without the excitement, without the confidence that they are are so sly that no one has seen it. They do it with full knowledge that that their actions are seen and felt.

To that end, unless your daughters have asked you not to, I would also let him know that they know. Secrets in a family cause destruction. Pure and simple. Your daughters are adult. You did no wrong discussing this with them.

I don't know if it is the MLC or the narcissism, but mine continues to lie about everything. When I recently told him I knew he'd been messing with my passwords, he refused to have a discussion until I identified which I knew had been messed with. Even then he had excuses, no admissions, just more lies.

Your husband needs to man up. His office staff is fighting because he is a coward who won't lead. They don't create the pecking order. It is his office, he needs to do that. All they will do is peck each other's eyes out. He has created this mess and it is his to clean up.

In sum, good to you for telling. Now tell her husband and let him know his daughters know. Maybe it pushes them together, but at least it is more honest than what it is now. And, nothing destroys an affair faster than a little reality.

[Coly23]

Cil, I agree with all that Own has said. You don't owe your XH any loyalty and Bubbles is using him to Lord it over the others in the office. They both deserve each other and I agree tag he should know that his children know what they have been up to.

It's also annoying that he calls you and then says had wants to have as little influence in your life as possible and then wonders why you don't want to speak with him! Very narcissistic!
(((Cil)))

[ciluzen]

Just a quick reply, as I'm ducking out to class. He knows all. I told him that our daughters had both suspected an improper relationship since they were in highschool...that that was how obvious that he was focusing his attention on her was. The story I told him I was leaving them to tell is of the things they found "hidden" in the shop. This is because a) I didn't find it b) it is possible that it was not intended for her (we were very active until the week before BD) c) "hidden", upon retrospect, is a perception (shop being accessed by us all and not really full) and d) again, nether I nor D's know the intention behind it. Both D's were in college and "hiding" it in the shop doesn't make as much sense as D's let on, as I went in there often, sometimes just to keep him company.

I have fought the urge multiple times to call or write to her H. But I don't really want to bring that down on him as a) I'm the XW and so my involvement may be dismissed as unfounded and vindictive b) knowing how obvious it is to others and how often they spend time together with my XH, he is either trying to ignore the situation to keep his family intact or really is clueless (or manipulated...look who he's married to) and c) I would feel like an absolute sh#t being judge, jury, and jailor just to make him and his kids feel as angry and sad as I and my children. How does that help us to move on?

I am not responsible for her H or family...I have cut that whole group out of my life. Yes, I wonder if he knows or what he thinks, but my priority is my family. Truth has a way of surfacing. I already know of a few people who have left that situation, especially after it became known that we divorced. It speaks more of them (those who stay) and less negatively of me. As for my kids; the situation is evolving as understanding sinks in. I can't force my opinions on them...I want them to love their father as he does love them. However, respect is a whole other thing.

[OwnIt]

Ciluzen:

You of course are in the best position to know these things and your "view of the world" has always demonstrated what a fair-minded person you are.

I did mean to comment on the little influence issue (thanks for the reminder Coly). I call BS on that. Mine likes to tell me how he never thinks about me.

I had a friend and partner who always said that when people say it isn't about the money, it's always about the money.

When they constantly have to tell us they don't love us or care about us or think about us or want us to have influence, it is exactly the opposite.

I would ignore every single one of those comments, as well as the migrating percentage by which he feels x or you feel y. That oven is still heating away and he isn't yet a nice golden brown.

[job]

I have absolutely no 2x4's to hand out. You laid it all out for him and you were honest and that's what matters. Coly and OwnIt have given you good comments and advice. I, too, don't think the oven is hot enough yet to even turn him a gold brown.

[kml]

A) Cheaters lie. My ex lied about his affair while I was right in front of him with the evidence open on his laptop! LOL. It's like they think they can just wish any consequences away. Do nOT let him gaslight you any further with his excuses.

B) Does Bubbles do anything financial in the office, like billing? Or reception? Just know that doctor and dentist offices are notorious targets for embezzlers and it's usually the most trusted employee, the one who never takes time off. He should have his books checked to make sure she's not embezzling money from the practice.

As for Bubbles' husband - me personally, I would want to know. But it shouldn't come from you - or if it does, should be anonymous.

[devvo]

Cil

Your point about your daughters loving their father but not respecting him. That is absolutely the same place my children will be when they reach the emotional age of your daughters. It's also the same place XH is with his own father. He loves him but doesn't respect him.

It makes me so sad to see people repeat the sins of their fathers as my XH has done. Intellectually they must know their actions will reduce the esteem in which their children hold them. They do them anyway. This MLC thing must truly be a malady - a form of insanity.

Your daughters are very lucky to have in you such a shining light of fairness and integrity. I'm sure a part of them will ask "What would my mother have done?" when confronted with life's difficulties.

[Sotto]

That's interesting about the loving but not respecting comment. SS said something similar when I saw him recently - I love my Dad, but oh he's such a moron too. It is a shame, but of course understandable, when kids don't have that respect for one of their parents, due to their actions. But it does seem to happen a lot here.

Xx

[bttrfly]

Guess I am the only one who thinks Cil should not tell Bubbles' husband. How do we know he doesn't already know??

Leave them to it.

His office is in turmoil?

Leave them to it.

His daughters know and have lost respect for him?

Leave them to it.

He wants you to have little influence/effect in his life?

GIVE HIM WHAT HE WANTS. NOW LEAVE HIM TO SUFFER HIS CONSEQUENCES!

Good God, you've been given the greatest gift of all - YOURSELF! Plus the bonus of being validated. You're instincts were spot on. Never ever doubt them again.

Run with it.

I know this is painful. I know this is upsetting, to put it mildly. You've done the absolute right thing for yourself by stating what you know and getting it all out in the open. His trysts will be forever overlaid with the knowledge that YOU KNOW. YOU KNEW ALL ALONG.



I believe living a life completely and totally your own, without a backward glance is the best revenge if you're into that sort of thing.

It's also the healthiest thing you can do for yourselves and your girls. They may be in their 20s, but make no mistake doll, they are still watching, learning and you are still presenting them with an example of how to live.

How would you want one of your daughters to handle this were she in the same situation?

That's my $.02.

Love you, Cil {{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}