, what do you plan to do if you walk away from the conversation without a clear answer, or the one you desire?
My preference would obviously be to lay it down just like that, and then really walk away if I don't get the answer that I need and say that I need more than that.
But it's likely that it won't be that simple, no matter which way she goes. If she actually is committed, and think she is doing enough, she's going to say so. If she is not so committed, and is waffling, she will certainly say "well what specifically would you like me to do", and /or "what haven't I done".
I don't want it to turn into a R convo, but she will try very hard to make it so. She is very sharp, and very quick, especially in conversation. Perhaps even more so than I am and that is my profession. I do of course have a long laundry list of reasons I don't feel secure in the MR right now, all of which have been discussed on this for I'm at one point or another, but I don't feel at all comfortable going into all of that right now nor do I think I should, which sentiment you seem to be in agreement with when you tell me to keep it short.
I guess to simplify, my question is, what's the best way to handle it when she tries to drag it down into the weeds and talk about specific issues.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
, My preference would obviously be to lay it down just like that, and then really walk away if I don't get the answer that I need and say that I need more than that.
But it's likely that it won't be that simple, no matter which way she goes. If she actually is committed, and think she is doing enough, she's going to say so. If she is not so committed, and is waffling, she will certainly say "well what specifically would you like me to do", and /or "what haven't I done".
then you are not ready to have this conversation... this, what you have written here, says you are not ready to move on from limbo...
it does NOT matter if she thinks she is doing enough... of course she thinks that... but she is NOT... specifically she is not in IC... specifically she is not having a physical relationship with you... there...
if you cannot get that from her, you do need to walk away... but if you cannot walk away after she tells you she is doing all that she can, then DO NOT approach her with this... DO NOT have this conversation... you will end up where you already are... and you will look even weaker...
LH19, I appreciate you trying to pump me up and "steel my spine" to do what has to be done, but...
Playing devil's advocate here, let's not overstate the "BS I've been putting up with for over a year". Aside from the fact that it has not yet been a year (close, yes, but not quite), a lot of the "BS" since, well, probably August could easily be said to be the result of where you're standing when you're looking at it. Her "behavior", with one or two exceptions, has been, objectively, exemplary. No contact that i can discern with OM, no outward signs of disrespect towards me, and (although, yes, I did not insist on "enough" when the SHTF in july) what I didinsist on she has complied with. Only exception being arguably and I stress arguably WRT the counseling, which I insisted had to be a component going forward. My implication there was obviously that we would follow the advice of the MC (which, in our case, included IC-- which W has not obviously sought out) but I don't know if I would call that "putting up with BS", especially since she has gone to every session, without complaint, that I have scheduled. Has she scheduled any herself for us, or requested that I do so? No-- though she has taken the initiative on some of the homework.
At any rate, I am not going to argue that all of that is enough... BUT... a lot of that is on me for not setting clearer boundaries and requirements and for making it too easier for her to come back.
Her sleeping apart on a few nights, and saying in session that she is having a hard time envisioning a fully intimate relationship with me? Seems more honesty (painful, yes, but honest) than disrespect.
Failure to put back on her wedding ring? I have never brought this up (once, maybe, but very obliquely) nor established it as a "must", and, hey... I'm not wearing one either and have made no move to replace mine. Bad sign, okay, but "BS"?
The two trips out she's had where her whereabouts were arguably (and only a little arguably if you have a BIG imagination and like to spin) unaccounted-for? Easily could've been a lot of things, including just forgetting her phone.
The unaccounted for trip to her office (which I shouldn't even really know about)? Easily a short side-trip on her way to go Christmas shopping (and it was in fact on her way).
Her get-togethers with bff? No indications of any wrongdoing and I can't control who she hangs out with and, as she has noted in the past, she doesn't approve of all of my friends either. (One of whom cheated on and subsequently divorced one of her other friends--though, to be fair, I am no longer close with this dude)
My suspicions about a couple of items of jewelry? Just that. I have asked her about it and she has denied that any are from OM. I have no concrete reason to think otherwise.
The only two concrete things she has done "Wrong" have been to a) briefly go shopping next door to OM's hangout after me telling her I didn't feel comfortable about her going there just prior to Christmas--though she did not hide it and in fact told me she had gone and b) tell me a couple of lies, one which she may not even have realized, about her past with OM-- one was a couple of weeks ago when she said her bff's AP (a mutual friend) did NOT know about her A with OM (when I know for a fact the opposite is true) and the other was, back in the summer before SHTF she told me a pic on her FB page of flowers were NOT from OM, but just recently she confirmed they were. Of course, by confirming they were she also confirmed she kept the pic up for nearly an entire month after SHTF.
Anyway, in a nutshell: No, she is not doing what I need for her to do in order for me to a) feel safe in the MR and b) feel like she is committed to the process of counseling and reconciliation. But I have a really hard time working myself up into an angry, self-righteous lather because "I have been putting up with constant BS". It's simply not the case. Thankfully, though, it doesn't have to be in order for me to take a stand.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
it does NOT matter if she thinks she is doing enough... of course she thinks that... but she is NOT... specifically she is not in IC... specifically she is not having a physical relationship with you... there...
if you cannot get that from her, you do need to walk away... but if you cannot walk away after she tells you she is doing all that she can, then DO NOT approach her with this... DO NOT have this conversation... you will end up where you already are... and you will look even weaker...
Okay, thanks. So, you have partially answered my question and partially not.
It doesn't matter if she thinks she is "doing enough". Check. Got it.
Can I walk away if she says "I cant' give you that" or "I don't know if I can see myself giving you that" or "I can't do anymore?" Yes, actually, I think that I can. I actually did walk away once before, you know. Let her back in too easily later, of course, but I did walk. I feel even more capable of doing so now.
But what if she says "well what more do you want me to do?" Is it enough for me to say "This is not enough... you need to prove yourself to me and I don't think you have done so"? Or, should I be proactive and lay down specifics? The IC is an easy one-- MC has basically said this is a must (and, TBH, W has agreed with this assessment, both in session and, even more explicitly, out of session when talking with me), so I have no problem telling her "I need you to do what our professional counselor is telling us to do... if you can't do that, then I can't continue", as is the physical intimacy: "We're working towards a fully intimate marriage... or not at all"
But what about other issues? Her bff and that relationship? Her failure to come clean on some stuff-- some of pertinent, at least to me-- about her A with OM? The wedding ring issue? Her continuing occasional and somewhat disconcerting talk which basically amounts to feeling a "need to rebel"-- which comes out every now and then in her actions, most notably when she went shopping next door to OM's sometimes hangout even after I told her I didn't think she should. All of these fall within the category of "things that make me question her commitment to rebuilding trust and rebuilding the MR"... but are they things I broach with her if she seems/sounds legitimately interested or do I leave it at:
"I'm not getting enough, I need a full commitment from you and that has to include IC as recommended by the MC and a commitment that we are working on FULLY restoring the MR-- sex and all."
It's not that I am questioning my willingness to walk away, it is that I am questioning my approach, and how much down into the weeds I should be willing to go if she asks (which she is fairly likely to do): "Well, what do you want." Like I said, she is very adept at engaging in conversation, and I myself am a verbal person and very easily drawn into long conversations (which, in general, I agree with Sandi would be better to avoid.)
But what if she asks...
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Jim, stop being a lawyer for a second! You are very much complicating things.
You want to get out of the friend zone. very simple. You want a romantic intimate relationship. Is doesn't matter how she perceives it. You know you aren't getting it. She could spin things all over the place. Doesn't matter. You are going to have to walk away if she is not going to restore that. And she needs to go to IC to restore it. There. That's it.
You have repeated NUMEROUS times how she is behaving. We get it. Is "behaving" enough?
The one odd office trip she made, or shopping next door to OM, that isn't your issue here.
One step at a time. What is your number one issue? That's what you address. Nothing else. Because you both have this ability to have these very wordy relationship conversations that just go in circles. You want intimacy restored? Is that your number one issue. You tell her in a very succinct matter. And if you can't get a succinct answer that is clear, then you need to be ready to walk away.
I am trying to help you because I lived it for 2 years and my W was having sex with me. I could tell her heart wasn't in it. I also blamed myself for how we got into the position that we were in our M.
But you know what I realized. M is about fuching forgiveness and we both were to blame for how we got there. Instead of living two years in fuching limbo thinking this was just a phase I should have nutted up and said something along the lines of "I know I made a lot of mistakes in our marriage. I love you and I adore you but we are either going to both get into individual counseling and marriage counseling and work on this together or I am not going to do this anymore". Then if I didn't get the answer I was looking for walk and never looked back. (I didn't have the knowledge I have now)
What would have changed? Maybe nothing I am almost divorced. I just know it would have saved me at least 1 year of soul sucking limbo and I could have moved on earlier.(We are not getting any younger lol!) I was trying to hang onto someone who didn't want to be with me. Never again!
You're a good man who made mistakes. We are all human.
The number one thing I have learned is that when someone changes the terms of the relationship you are in and you are not agreement with these terms you lovely communicate that these terms are unacceptable to you and if they aren't willing to agree to your terms you walk and you never look back. I communicates that you love and value yourself and if they don't someone else will.
yes--leave out all the minutia, including the relationship with BFF... the not coming clean on stuff and the rebel talk (although i will get back to these two items later)... sleeping on the couch... etc...
your "I'm not getting enough..." statement is good... you can try to leave it at that... of course, she will respond... you can let her have her say, and still stick with your statement that you are not getting enough... you can tell her, if you must, that her not coming clean on stuff and the rebel talk indicate to you that she is not fully committed to the relationship... if you want to keep it short, just mention the rebel talk... and leave it at that... be warm, loving... because you do love her... but because you love her, you cannot go on living like friends, roommates...
i want to reiterate, my H and i were legally separated for 2.5 years... and physically separated for a good 6 months before we were legally separated... we lived a part... we lived separate lives... we had interactions from time to time because we do have 2 sons... and his father passed away during that time, and my father had a major life-threatening surgery during that time... i went through a lot before i was able to come back to him... he went through a lot to get to a healthy place.. i had some IC during our time a part... so did he... when i approached him about reconciliation, his first requirement was that i set up IC for myself immediately... secondly, i had to commit to MC... i set that up for us, immediately... we had ups and downs during MC... sometimes we would come away hurt, angry, annoyed... i guess i am saying this again so you know that it may take your living apart to get your marriage back... and then if and when it happens, you will still experience growing pains...
Ginger, LH, artista-- really good clarifications and insights, really well said. I very much appreciate all the time and thoughts and "white light" y'all are sending my way. And I agree to a large extent, i just need to think and pray on it over the next couple of days, and make sure I have thought out all of the possibilities and know for certain how I will handle things... And this will also allow my son to get off to school without me tossing a hand grenade into the middle of the household before he leaves.
We'll see what the next couple of days bring, but looks like I am headed towards, umm... "bringing this to a head", so to speak.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
If she tries to get off track or pull you off on another trail, do not respond to that subject. Just tell her, "We can talk about that at another time, but I want to stay focused on whether or not you can emotionally commit to being my W".
Jim, I think you need to be prepared to tell her the specifics of what you need from her. Her idea of commitment may be nothing like yours. So, don't approach her until you know what you want her to do that will show you she's committed. If at all possible, stay away from pointing out the things she has done "wrong" that make you feel insecure, b/c this is where she will try to steer the conversation into a long R discussion. I don't know if you can explain what you need without telling her those things. And BTW, this does not mean you shouldn't stress on her getting serious with the MC/IC and whatever else you need from her.
Do not approach her in any sense of self-righteousness. That is a big no-no, IMHO. Don't try to work yourself up to be angry. Although you may feel fed up with things, that doesn't mean you have to show it overtly. Some men do show their WW they are fed up with how things are going, but you don't have to. Just talk calmly, and stay focused on keeping the conversation on the main topic.
If you told her you needed her to be your W in every sense of the word, don't you think she would know what you mean......or would she play dumb and ask for a breakdown of the meaning?
You previously spoke about timing, and I believe it makes a huge difference when the timing is right. We seldom have control, b/c we simply don't know if the timing is good or bad. However, when it comes to approaching your WW, I think there are some signs that will give you clues about the right timing. I strongly suggest not approaching her late at night. People are exhausted from the stress of their job and whatever they've dealt with at home, etc. They are not likely to respond favorably. Choose a time when she is relaxed and seems to be in a pleasant mood. Her attitude tells you a lot, if you'll observe. Don't choose a time when both of you have had a rough day with S17, or if S19 has new problems to arise. These are the things to avoid, b/c they cause stress for both of you. It would not be a good time to talk to her about you needing more from her. Know what I mean? In other words, don't set a specific day on the calendar to have the talk. I've seen men do this and they are so focused on having the talk on that date, that they are like, "have the talk or bust", and they don't observe the other things that are telling him it's not a good time. You won't know until it comes, but when it does.....that's the time to approach her. Or.....you can ignore what I've said about timing and just hit her with it whenever and have a ef'it all attitude. That's your decision.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
