FastCars, it's more than that. It's letting her experience the consequences of her actions, yes, but it's also me gaining some distance, and no longer going out of my way to help her.
I'm not proud of it, but there's also some satisfaction in having someone who's treated me so badly being awash in her own garbage. I'm not sure where that fits into DBing.
On another note, I'm just about to refi the house and take her name off it. She has to sign the paperwork, so she's well aware of what's going on. I kind of feel like some of the things she's been doing lately is temp checking, so this might be a good indication of whether that's true.
I am pretty sure that's wishful thinking on my part, so my expectations are very low. The things I refer to as temp checking are also part of divorcing, so, like I said, my expectations are low.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
Jim, when do you think you'll actually get divorced?
I don't know. I simply don't have any reason right now to push it, so, knowing my WAW's penchant for not doing this kind of thing, it might be a while.
But, I've heard that with the new tax law, alimony is no longer deductable to the payor, UNLESS THE DIVORCE IS FINALIZED before the end of 2018. That's something I'm surprised I haven't seen discussed on this forum. I have to do some more research, but if this is true, I will probably start pushing it.
Or I could get a new girlfriend, and decide I don't want to be married.
Or she could surprise me and send my lawyer a settlement proposal tomorrow. I just don't know. Taking it one day at a time......
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
I thought the kids were doing fairly well in the divorce. I was wrong.
D16 isn't doing well in come classes. Just not turning in homework. She can easily handle the work; that's not the problem. Over Christmas break, she promised me she was doing some of the back homeworks each day, until the last day of break, claimed she only had 3 short assignments left. I left for a work trip, and haven't seen her until today, almost 2 weeks later.
I got online and checked, and her assignments were never turned in. I asked her, in as gentle a way as I am capable (and yes, objectively speaking, it was pretty gentle), what was going on. She confessed she hasn't done the homework. When I asked further, it's obvious the divorce is having far more impact than I thought, but she just won't really talk to me. She doesn't really talk to WAW, either.
Her best friend's 16th birthday party is tomorrow night. She asked days ago if she could sleep over, and I told her yes. Of course, this was before I knew about her not turning in her homework.
I guess I'm looking for some advice.... I'd like to be supportive, and help her get back on track by helping to resolve the issues that make doing her homework so hard now. But I don't see how I can still let her go to the party.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
I would want to let her go but I'd also need a commitment from her.
Maybe tell her you changed your mind and don't want to let her go to the party because of her grades, and discuss it with her to see what she's willing to commit to. Because you can't let her go because of the homework, but you also already said yes.
I think it might be beneficial for her to get some time with her friends right now. I think that if she does some make up work and does better going forward it will be ok this one time.
Save yourself. Nobody is coming! BD:11/2017 Filed:12/2017 Final: 2/2018
This is serious stuff, your D has misled you both about her situation. Where are the school conferences? When you asked your D did you ask to see, be involved in her catch up, look at her schedule, praise or discuss Progress? Did you get invested?
Your child is struggling and you were unaware?
Stopping her going to her friends party appears to be punishment to me. Closing the door after the horse has bolted. This is a wonderful opportunity to show care, love involvement and true interest. Fantastic dad and D time. This is a case to show love and mutual respect. To get to know and understand your D. To validate and listen, to put together an action plan to tackle this together with feedback.
I see a pattern in this, 25 posted some amazing posts at the start of your last thread about the passive aggressive umbrella incident and punishment with regard to the advance payment on the house. Comments about protecting from consequences, I think you might choose to reread and see if you have a pattern.
If you want to enforce consequences then boundaries are set and then enforcement occurs.
Those are my thoughts, although there are parents here who can help you with strategy on this. It is a long time since I fostered teenagers.
I think you need a proper plan.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
I would let her go contingent on her putting together a plan to make up the homework... Put the plan in place before the party... And you can help her if she lets you... Don't take the party away from her this time... I don't think it would be worth it in the scheme of things...
I am not a cotton ball-y, lenient type of parent, accept in emotional matters... sometimes it pays to go soft, IMO...
I guess I'm looking for some advice.... I'd like to be supportive, and help her get back on track by helping to resolve the issues that make doing her homework so hard now. But I don't see how I can still let her go to the party.
Personally, I think it would be a mistake. If you punish her by not allowing her to attend her best friends 16th birthday party, she may really rebel about everything. Since she is not talking about her feelings with her parents, she needs someone who will listen and support her. Her friend probably does, but I suggest you check with the school counselor and see if she will feel free to talk. If s/he is only an academic counselor, then seeking a family therapist may be in order.
She is the innocent that gets hurts in the fallout of her parents' disaster. It's probably hard for her to find motivation to even do the homework, when she feels her world falling apart. Let her know you are concerned for her emotional well being b/c you love her. You want her to feel free to go to you about anything......not keep secrets b/c she's afraid you'll punish her.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
In the end, I worked with WAW,and did what most of you suggested. I made sure she completed a large number of late assignments before I let her go, reached an understanding before she left where she would catch up on the rest of the assignments today, tomorrow (Sunday and she has Monday off from school, so she can spend all day doing homework), and the rest of this week. I updated WAW and her schoolteachers of what she has completed and what she is working on, so I'm pretty sure that if WAW follows thru this week while she has the kids, D16 will be back on track. In the last two days, she's completed a lot of the missed assignments, but still has a lot to do.
When we realized D16 was having problems before Christmas, we arranged for her to see a counsellor twice before the year ended. Kids have been with WAW since, and she hasn't had any more sessions. After I realized how badly D16 was doing in school, I talked to WAW. She made an appointment with the counsellor, and I took D16 today. WAW spent quite a bit of time on the phone talking to counsellor when she made the appointment, and apparently learned quite a bit. She'll tell me when we have an opportunity.
I was very calm throughout the discussion, validated her feelings, asked for her input. We talked a lot about how hard the divorce was from her perspective, and what I could do to make it easier.
She explicitly said it was hard not having a schedule, knowing where they would be spending each night. (WAW and I both travel extensively. Our custody basically says when I'm working, she gets the kids, and vice versa.) WAW and I coordinate our schedules, but haven't really shared them with the kids. Now that I know, I drew up a calendar for January, and diagrammed when we would each be travelling, and where the kids would be each night. We'll see how that works out.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
This is serious stuff, your D has misled you both about her situation. Where are the school conferences? When you asked your D did you ask to see, be involved in her catch up, look at her schedule, praise or discuss Progress? Did you get invested?
Your child is struggling and you were unaware?
......
I think you need a proper plan.
V
V, I was aware, and tried over Christmas break to make sure she got her work done. She lied to me, saying she completed her assignments, and I believed her. We've had a lot of snow days, I was overseas, and I wasn't sure how much lag there was between her assignments being turned in, and them being posted online, so I waited a week before querying her teachers.
Now that I know, I've brought it up to WAW. She is as upset as I, and we are taking more active steps to make sure she does her work.
thank you for your inputs. I really value them.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
I guess I'm looking for some advice.... I'd like to be supportive, and help her get back on track by helping to resolve the issues that make doing her homework so hard now. But I don't see how I can still let her go to the party.
Personally, I think it would be a mistake. If you punish her by not allowing her to attend her best friends 16th birthday party, she may really rebel about everything. Since she is not talking about her feelings with her parents, she needs someone who will listen and support her. Her friend probably does, but I suggest you check with the school counselor and see if she will feel free to talk. If s/he is only an academic counselor, then seeking a family therapist may be in order.
She is the innocent that gets hurts in the fallout of her parents' disaster. It's probably hard for her to find motivation to even do the homework, when she feels her world falling apart. Let her know you are concerned for her emotional well being b/c you love her. You want her to feel free to go to you about anything......not keep secrets b/c she's afraid you'll punish her.
I tried very hard to put your suggestions into effect. I had a long talk with her, let her know I loved and was concerned for her, and let her go to the party. We discussed consequence v punishment and how she couldn't stay at her friends house because then she'd be too tired to do her homework today.
When I picked her up, she was happy, sweet, and friendly, so I guess I did some things right.
Today, she was focused, and got a lot of homework done. And I even took her for a session with a counsellor.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
explicitly said it was hard not having a schedule, knowing where they would be spending each night. (WAW and I both travel extensively. Our custody basically says when I'm working, she gets the kids, and vice versa.) WAW and I coordinate our schedules, but haven't really shared them with the kids. Now that I know, I drew up a calendar for January, and diagrammed when we would each be travelling, and where the kids would be each night. We'll see how that works out.
Jim I think you handled it great. We have to remember our kids are going through a lot of stress too. I know at work I have a hard time concentrating as well. I can imagine kids in school have the same difficulties.
I have also heard knowing the schedule is important to kids.
I see a pattern in this, 25 posted some amazing posts at the start of your last thread about the passive aggressive umbrella incident and punishment with regard to the advance payment on the house. Comments about protecting from consequences, I think you might choose to reread and see if you have a pattern.
V,
I reread 25's posts, a few times, and thought about it for a while, but honestly don't see the parallels. I think 25 had some very good comments about those situations, but I don't see how they apply to this one. Can you spell it out for me a little more?
thanks
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
Jim, I'm so sorry to hear your daughter has had a rough time. It sounds like you took the right approach. Perhaps a homework tutor or any other way of keeping her accountable could help if she doesn't improve, but your love and understanding sound like the important things at this time.
I finalize the refinancing of my house on Friday. She has already signed the paperwork to get her name off the deed. After the refi on my house (the marital home) is complete, she can refi her new house and get me off her deed and mortgage.
The end of the school quarter is Thursday. D16 has been staying with WAW all week, and WAW is getting D16 to finish her school work. D16 and I had a huge argument on Saturday about it. I didn't handle myself well, and apologized to her the next day, when she was at her mother's.
S17 just got his first college acceptance today. It's his third choice, but we're all very happy.
I took S and D on a college visit Saturday (had the blow up with D16 afterward). We had a really nice time. I asked WAW if she wanted to join us, and she was going to come, but had a contractor at her house, so she had to stay home. I didn't put any pressure on her, and she would have come if she could have.
S17 was in a play last weekend. I was going on Fri and told WAW. She said she was going that night, too, and asked if I wanted her to buy the tickets. I said sure. Went with D16, and went out for a bite to eat beforehand, and a really nice time. Again, I was polite and pleasant, and put no pressure on her.
W has had issues with her house. A pipe froze, ruining her kitchen ceiling, kitchen floor, basement ceiling, and basement floor. She texted me about it, and I let her know that I knew she could handle it, and I let her. (The contractor couldn't finish the work, so she couldn't come on the college visit)
Later Saturday night, her blower for her furnace failed and she had no heat. I did the civil thing, and told her if it got too cold, she could come stay in the spare bedroom. Again, no pressure. She texted me later to say she got two space heaters working, and since it was a mild night, she'd be fine, but thanks for the offer, and I expressed confidence in her ability to deal with this issue, too. The weather's been mild, so she's had time to fix it.
Yesterday, she let me know her heating options... expensive fix, or new furnace, and asked my advice. I let her know my thoughts and she asked what if I was wrong? "Then you get the satisfaction of telling me how wrong I was." She thought that was very funny.
Today she sent a very long text about a lot of things, but included was the question about continuing to pay child support after S17 graduates. I told her I'm still thinking about it, and she said she needs to know before she proposes a settlement offer.
I suspect nothing's changed, but subconsciencly I think I'm trying to convince myself that she's maybe having second thoughts, enjoying, and seeking out my company again. I'm still struggling a bit with detachment, but trying. I'm faking it better, at least.
I think GAL is going fairly well. I'm playing volleyball 2 nights a week, going out and seeing friends, old and new, dating some, getting to the gym a few times a week.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
Sounds like you have a lot of communication with your W and maybe she is having second thoughts. I would keep the communication minimal and keep your side of it short and/or curt text messages.
I agree with your approach about being civil and doing things such as going to Son's play and even offering her the room when her heating stopped. In those situations I ask myself whether I would be doing this for an acquaintance, and if yes, then I'll do it for W.
Having refinanced the house, it sounds like you are very close to finalizing the D?
I'd like to think she's having second thoughts, but I am pretty sure that's wishful thinking on my part. I'm not sure how to separate the wishful thinking from the reality. Time, I guess.
I like to think I take the same approach... if I'd do it for a friend, I'd do it for her. But I'm not sure if that is NGS in disguise.
LOL, no we're not close to finalizing. She keeps talking about a settlement agreement, but nothing ever happens. I'm not doing it for her, so it doesn't go anywhere.
I don't know if she keeps bringing it up to see if I'm still on her string, or she is really about to send me the settlement agreement, but I have been really nonchalant whenever it comes up. If it weren't for this board, I'd freak out every time.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
I'd like to think she's having second thoughts, but I am pretty sure that's wishful thinking on my part.
I have thought this at times as well. When it happens I start to feel a little extra bounce in my step and I think could this be the start??? It ends up not being close so then I remind myself TO HAVE NO EXPECTATIONS! That way you can't be let down
I have thought this at times as well. When it happens I start to feel a little extra bounce in my step and I think could this be the start??? It ends up not being close so then I remind myself TO HAVE NO EXPECTATIONS! That way you can't be let down
Yeah, I'm trying to have no expectations, but there's always this little voice in the back of my head...
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
It's hard to let go of the expectations. Every time I am getting hopeful to turning things around the throws another bomb my way. Best to detach
Truthbuster.
Married 4.5, Together 6 M: 36, W: 33, no kids Separation date: 7/8/2017 Bomb dropped: 8/18/2017 Last communication: 1/8/2018 - now nothing OM confirmed - now ended (?)
Jim, if you sense your wife is having second thoughts maybe this is the time to say something. Maybe you need to tell her you're not ready to quit, that you believe in her and building a new better future. If you've been separated for a year then surely she's seen the changes in you. I personally would say something and express to her the hope that she'll give it another shot. I bet a beautiful sparkly necklace and flowers would help show your intent. With Valentine's day coming up there's an opportunity as well. If I were you I wouldn't sit quietly. It sounds like there is still hope.
Nicole, the objective part of me doesn't really think she's having second thoughts. Also, this board has helped me realize that she hasn't changed a bit. There's been no apology for her part in the failure of the marriage, and there's no indication she's willing to do anything differently. Absent these, I wouldn't want her back anymore.
And I guess if I'm wrong, and she is having second thoughts, I really don't want to pursue, pressure, and frighten her off. I think I'm better off waiting.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
Our kids had their Winter Ball last night. I asked if I could come over W's house to take some pictures before they left. She let me know what time would be good, and I showed up on time.
They were all running late, so W and I had a few minutes to talk, and she asked if I had thought more about her request that I continue to pay child support while S17 is in college. I told her that I had really put some thought into it, and there was no way I could pay my portion of college AND continue to pay S17s portion of child support.
Of course, she exploded. I don't need to get into the details, but she said things like, "You should work more," and "Well, how am I supposed to pay for my share of college if your child support ends?" I just sat on the floor, calmly petting the dog while she went on, thinking to myself things like "maybe you should have thought about these things before you left". Finally she got herself so upset she turned and started leaving. I asked if I got to respond, and she said "no" and continued walking. I probably shouldn't have said this, but I said "so it's just like it used to be." (It's not entirely fair on my part, but often she would blow up at me, and then leave to go back to the garage, or back room, and smoke, without listening to my side.)
The thing is, there was plenty of money to send the kids to college. But unlike most married couples, we didn't have a lot of everyday conversations to discuss things like this (for those who haven't read much of my situation, she would go to the garage, and eventually the back room which she set up as a miniature smoking lounge, and smoke, for, like, 15 hours a day. She started sleeping in the back room, and would spend literally 22 hours a day back there.). She thought the money we had saved in one account was for retirement. But I have plenty of money in my 401(k) for retirement, and was planning on using the account for college. But that was the money she used to buy her house, so it's gone now.
It's funny, but I didn't really even care when she walked out of the room. I knew it doesn't matter what I would have said, no matter how logical, rational.... She wouldn't have really been able to accept it anyway because it wouldn't fit in with her vision of me as the bad guy.
She's probably going to take me back to a support conference to get more alimony and child support. She said she is, anyway. She has said she was waiting for my reply on the college/child support to get together with her lawyer and send a settlement proposal, so maybe this will move the divorce along.
One last thought... her house looks like crap. Dead Christmas tree still up, Christmas decorations still out, stuff just strewn all over the place, sink full of dirty dishes, nothing put away....
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
Jim, too bad your wife hasn't apologized. Surely she's done a little self-reflection by now, right? There's no way she can think you're to blame for everything.
That doesn't sound fair for your wife to initiate the divorce and then keep asking for more financial support. That's a double standard punishing you double.
At least seeing the house like that is a little empowering knowing you're not missing out on much and she's not on top of everything.
Nicole, no, I doubt she's done much self reflection. It wouldn't really be consistent with her personality. Also, her friends have changed, and the people she's listening to now would not encourage that line of thought.
Yup, it's not fair, but that's life. I think most of us on this board think our situations aren't fair. I think your situation is horribly unfair. But that's life, and I'm trying to make the best of it.
And I don't know if it's petty, but yes, it feels good knowing her house is a dump.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
Jim, at least you've done self reflection and you saw your mistakes. When you decide to date again your changes will definitely help in the next relationship and some other lucky lady will appreciate you.
Yes, it's so unfair. It's so hard to believe 40 - 50% of marriages end in divorce because I barely know anyone who's divorced and the few that I know seem to think their lives are better. It doesn't feel like that when you've been abandoned. It's good that you're kind of accepted that this is how it is.
And I don't know if it's petty, but yes, it feels good knowing her house is a dump.
I think this demonstrates, helps us believe, that we weren't the problem, at least not the only one. I imagine that it would be really difficult if they left and then lived a fabulous life. So yeah, maybe it's petty, but it does feel good.
As for seeing signs of positivity and wondering if it's the start of something, I agree that expectations can cause disappointment. After the initial few months after BD, I realized that nothing mattered until major action was taken that showed a change, and I am a firm believer that when they have true remorse, and want to try and make it work, there will be no question. You will know.
Before then, you may just be seeing their reaction to a little sadness, or regret, but not enough that they are committed. We all have good and bad days, even the WAS or WS, you don't want to allow their daily emotions have an impact on you.
M - 9 1/2 years 5/5/16 - Bomb drop - 3 week EA 10/31/16 - We sold house 01/10/18 - D Finalized
Yes, it's so unfair. It's so hard to believe 40 - 50% of marriages end in divorce because I barely know anyone who's divorced and the few that I know seem to think their lives are better. It doesn't feel like that when you've been abandoned. It's good that you're kind of accepted that this is how it is.
As someone who's about to be on the other side of the D fence, I think about this a lot. I used to view D'd people as trying to prove their lives were better after D - working out, finding new confidence, getting a new look. I thought it was pathetic, since they obviously had no sense of self.
Now with my own experience (which includes being abandoned), I see how D'd people can act this way. We're horribly broken, and it really feels like a death. The only way forward is through a kind of rebirth. To put it simply, it's making the most of a cr@ppy situation.
Me-47,XW-43 S13,S16 M:18 BD:4-23-17 W filed:7-17-17 (5 months of in-house separation hell) W moved out:1-6-18 D granted:2-15-18 Decree signed:3-29-18
I told her that I had really put some thought into it, and there was no way I could pay my portion of college AND continue to pay S17s portion of child support.
Of course, she exploded. I don't need to get into the details, but she said things like, "You should work more," and "Well, how am I supposed to pay for my share of college if your child support ends?"
insanity... i guess i am just far too logical to think this way... i as a former WW, i never expected more than what was fair from H... in fact, i didn't even take all that he offered because i felt so guilty about blowing up our marriage...
she thinks you should work more--even though she is the one having trouble coming up with the college money... she should work more if she needs more money... she may as well ask you to foot the entire college bill... i don't get it... i don't get how she thinks you should give her money so she could more easily pay her part of the tuition, but put yourself in a bind where you can't more easily pay for your part of the tuition... and you didn't ask for this!!! she did!
I think this demonstrates, helps us believe, that we weren't the problem, at least not the only one. I imagine that it would be really difficult if they left and then lived a fabulous life. So yeah, maybe it's petty, but it does feel good.
I am a firm believer that when they have true remorse, and want to try and make it work, there will be no question. You will know.
Before then, you may just be seeing their reaction to a little sadness, or regret, but not enough that they are committed. We all have good and bad days, even the WAS or WS, you don't want to allow their daily emotions have an impact on you.
She has mentioned a few times that she is "struggling" or "having a hard time" financially, and I admit, it doesn't upset me in the least!
I try to keep in mind that these "daily emotions" don't mean much, absent major admissions, and actions.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
To put it simply, it's making the most of a cr@ppy situation.
Exactly what I'm trying to do. When life hands me lemons, I'm not going to waste it on lemonade. I'm going to get some tequila and invite some friends for a party!
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
I told her that I had really put some thought into it, and there was no way I could pay my portion of college AND continue to pay S17s portion of child support.
Of course, she exploded. I don't need to get into the details, but she said things like, "You should work more," and "Well, how am I supposed to pay for my share of college if your child support ends?"
insanity... i guess i am just far too logical to think this way... i as a former WW, i never expected more than what was fair from H... in fact, i didn't even take all that he offered because i felt so guilty about blowing up our marriage...
she thinks you should work more--even though she is the one having trouble coming up with the college money... she should work more if she needs more money... she may as well ask you to foot the entire college bill... i don't get it... i don't get how she thinks you should give her money so she could more easily pay her part of the tuition, but put yourself in a bind where you can't more easily pay for your part of the tuition... and you didn't ask for this!!! she did!
aye, aye, aye... mis dos centavos...
--artista
LOL she's asked me to pay the entire college bill!
But I know what you mean. It's incomprehensible.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
I'm curious what other people are doing about an issue that's come up....
W wants some of the money we have in mutual funds prior to equitable distribution settlement. My lawyer is recommending we don't settle piecemeal, but settle the whole issue at once. I would prefer not to push her forward in the divorce, but at the same time, I'm not sure it matters.
Specifically, she wants the equity out of the marital house. I refinanced for the amount of the loan, telling her there was other money we could use to compensate her for her half of the equity. This is the money in mutual funds.
I'm sure some of you have had to divide some assets before finalizing. How did you do it?
I'm thinking since I suggested this in lieu of refinancing for the balance plus half the equity, I should do the right thing, and get her the money from our mutual funds. What are your thoughts?
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
I would wait until its distributed thru mediation or from the courts. Whats stopping her from saying you didnt give her nothing after you give her this. Or she say, you were just helping her out. I think you could create a situation that can become a huge headache. Just be patient and wait for the process to work out this situation for you.
M:37 W:37 T:11 M:10 S17, S13, S10, S4 BD:06/28/17 OM confirmed 07/20/17 Recon the M 10/29/17 Working hard:2gether
Onward and forward
This process is not a sprint it's a marathon! Patience, Patience, Patience.
Jim, I'm sorry I don't know what's best. I'll probably get into these issues in the near future but I'm not there yet. I know there are 'temporary support orders' and other ways of one spouse trying to get money from the other before the divorce is settled but I'm not sure how giving your wife money from a mutual fund now would affect the rest of the divorce. Does she have an urgent need for the money to pay her bills? Can you agree on, document, and sign something that says you gave her this money early so the settlement will be adjusted accordingly? It sounds like it depends on why she needs the money before the divorce is final, and whether she can convince you.
I'm sure some of you have had to divide some assets before finalizing. How did you
I'm thinking since I suggested this in lieu of refinancing for the balance plus half the equity, I should do the right thing, and get her the money from our mutual funds. What are your thoughts?
In my state the important date is separation, which we both agree on. Since then we have divided the checking account. I’m reluctant to divide anything else because there’s a lot of trade offs. I think every situation is different and you probably can’t provide enough details to get advice here.
One thing is there’s a record of what you do so the risk may be small.
It would be very well documented as an early distribution of our marital assets. She has already effectively allowed me to take ALL the equity, including her half, out of the house.
I guess I just feel like since I asked her to not take any equity out of the house, in exchange for cash, I feel... dishonorable.... if I back out.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
Emancipation in my state, like I suspect most, is upon both turning 18 AND graduation from high school.
S17 turns 18 in two weeks, and graduates this June. As part of their procedures, family court sent a questionaire a few months ago to both of us, noting that he was about to turn 18, and asking if he had graduated. W sent it back, erroneously reporting that he graduated in Jun '17. Family court sent me a notification that child support for S17 would therefore stop this month.
I'm in a bit of an ethical dilemma. I know she made an error, and it's not my responsibility to fix that error. But should I tell her of her error anyway? I don't know how big a deal it will be to have her fix it before the court order changes, versus after the change has taken effect. I mean, "how big a deal it will be, for me". For her, I don't care. That's her problem, she should have been more careful when she filled out the paperwork....
Thoughts?
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
I would send her a copy of the notice you received and let her fix the error. I would also just keep paying the child support until June 2018 when he does graduate. It's the right thing to do.
I'm thinking since I suggested this in lieu of refinancing for the balance plus half the equity, I should do the right thing, and get her the money from our mutual funds. What are your thoughts?
My thoughts are it's a legal question. I do agree with you that what is hers is hers, but as off-the-rails as she is you want to make absolutely sure this isn't going to come back to bite you. At this point I would assume that if there is any way for her to turn anything to her advantage against you even if it involves lying/ cheating/ stealing, then you should assume she will attempt to do so and protect yourself accordingly.
Originally Posted By: Jim1234
I'm in a bit of an ethical dilemma. I know she made an error, and it's not my responsibility to fix that error. But should I tell her of her error anyway? I don't know how big a deal it will be to have her fix it before the court order changes, versus after the change has taken effect. I mean, "how big a deal it will be, for me". For her, I don't care. That's her problem, she should have been more careful when she filled out the paperwork....
Thoughts?
It's not an ethical dilemma. Personally I would just let it go, don't worry about it. It's just a piece of paper, what you choose to pay is unrelated to it. You don't have to discontinue paying support just because of that piece of paper. You can of course continue to do so. My two daughters are well over 18 but my XW and I continue to split costs now and then when something comes up.
Thanks all for your inputs. In the end, I had to email her about a few issues (S18's birthday, home equity payoff, etc), and included the child support issue as well. The email wasn't accusatory or inflamatory in any way, so it should work out all right.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
I don't know what to think... I haven't heard from her at all regarding the mistake she made on the child emancipation paperwork, or the mutual fund distribution as compensation for her half of the home equity. In fact, the only contact she's made was to forward a picture of D16.
I don't think I am going to bring it up. I've brought it up once, and don't see any good coming out of doing so again.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
I got some texts from W about S and D, but nothing really meaty, or mentioning the child emancipation paperwork. All very conversational, nothing contentious.
She's going away for a few days to help her mom, and I expect we'll talk about the financial issues when she gets back.
If she hasn't had a change of heart by now, I don't think it's going to happen, so I think during the discussion about financial issues, I will bring up a draft settlement agreement she sent me 6 months ago, and suggest we move forward.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
Tax time, and I am just wondering how you all are going to handle filing. I stand to get a pretty good refund if I file separately, but will run the numbers both as "single", and "married", and see what the results are.
I suspect the answer will be similar, since I get to write off alimony, and don't have her income. But if filing jointly nets more, how do most separated couples deal with any refund? For round, easy numbers, say I would get back $10,000 filing single, and we'll get $15,000 filing married, but she only paid a total of $3000 in tax, and if she filed as head of household, she'd get nothing back. How would others file and/or divide up that refund?
thanks
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
I am going to be doing our taxes soon, and I was going to suggest proportional division based on income. I think it is fair. In my case it is close to 50/50. In your case it seems your income is much greater so you should get more of the benefit.
Jim, my XW and I agreed to split the tax refunds evenly (50/50) for last year. She makes more than me so I guess this is a win for me. Realistically, if you're still married (at least in my state), the tax refund is a community asset.
Me-47,XW-43 S13,S16 M:18 BD:4-23-17 W filed:7-17-17 (5 months of in-house separation hell) W moved out:1-6-18 D granted:2-15-18 Decree signed:3-29-18
Holding, we were separated all of last year, and during the support conference, I was asked how I planned to file, to which I replied "married filing singly", so I'm pretty sure it's not community property.
FC an J9, I like the idea of splitting the difference between what I would get myself and what we would get together proportionally. I'll propose something along those lines. At this point, if she is difficult, I'll just take my refund and be happy with it.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
S17 turns 18 on Saturday. (He's throwing himself a party at W's house. I've given him money for drinks, snacks, decorations, etc., but won't let him have the kinds of parties at my house that W will.)
My daughter has plans tomorrow night, so I gave him a birthday dinner at my house tonight. I invited W and S17s godparents to dinner, and two good friends of ours for cake, and he asked if two of his friends could come. Of course I said sure.
It went well. I told people to come at 7, we chatted for half an hour while I finished things up, sat down 10 minutes later than I expected. Dinner was really good. Good food, lively, pleasant conversation, delicious cake. At the end of the evening people were trickling out. W got up to leave, said a very pleasant goodbye, and left. Spent a little time cleaning up, and now the house looks great again.
And I feel good. It was well planned, I did well with the food and cake, and feel pretty disassociated from W. She came over, saw the house neat and clean, ate tasty food, served on time (!), saw me happy. I did not pursue her, and was very cavalier when she left. The best part is, I don't care very much about anything I just said.
I stopped by S17's godparents yesterday afternoon for a bit, and we got to talking about W. They don't understand her anymore any better than I do, but they confided that, in talking to our children, it seems like W isn't doing very well. I care, but just kind of shrugged my shoulders. Not my problem anymore.
I'm still a little bit bitter, and still a little bit angry, but it's getting much better.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
Jim, that is really nice you did that! Sounds like you did everything perfect. I’m sure your son was happy. What do you think isn’t going well for your wife? I hope tonight gave her some second thoughts.
Nicole, I don't know if everything was "perfect", but I know my son appreciated it, and enjoyed himself.
As far as W, when she lived here, she slept on the loveseat in her smoking room, saying she didn't want to sleep in the bed with me. One of the reasons she gave for wanting to D was that she wanted to sleep in a bed again. But now she has her own house, and her own bed, and still watches TV until she falls asleep in the loveseat. She's confided that she's having trouble paying her bills. Mid February, and she still has her Christmas tree and decorations up. When asked over Christmas by her godmother how her mother was, D16 apparently replied, disgustedly, "Aunt Xxxx, I'M the mother."
I doubt tonight gave her any second thoughts at all. I expect she is so convinced she was right to leave, her subconscious won't entertain the notion that she might have been wrong. I'm pretty sure she still suffers from depression, but she won't believe me. "I've been through depression, and I know what being depressed is like. I am NOT depressed."
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
My daughter has plans tomorrow night, so I gave him a birthday dinner at my house tonight. I invited W and S17s godparents to dinner, and two good friends of ours for cake, and he asked if two of his friends could come. Of course I said sure.
Good on you dude! IMO this is what being a great co-parent is all about. Your W got to see your positive, happy and I will continue with my great life vibe!
S turned 18 four days ago. Yesterday W gets called to school. S18 is being arrested at school for possession with intent to sell. He and a friend came to class reeking of pot, and the teacher called the cops. The car (MY car, that I let him use, that could have been impounded) reeked of pot from the outside, giving them justification to search the car. They found baggies, scales, bong, and enough pot to charge him with intent. Apparently he used his birthday money to buy a large amount (volume discount!) that he and his friends were going to split. They arrested him right in front of W. Handcuffs and all.
She got him out of the police station, took him to the car, and they drove home. I sent him a text saying "As badly as you have f'ed up, I just want to tell you that I still love you." He replied, and is very optimistic the charges will be dropped, or at least reduced significantly.
She called me about 6, and we talked about it for a little bit. 10 day suspension from school. She's worried, but at the same time, minimizing it. We agreed that he should still continue to get up and drive D16 to school. When she asked how I felt, I told her I didn't want him driving MY car anywhere except back and forth to school, or on any errands we want him to go on, but not over to his friends houses, the friends to whom he was going to sell the pot. She kind of gasped, and asked "so you're going to ground him until he goes to college in the fall?" in kind of a snooty voice. Unthinking, I replied, "Yes." That's not really what I meant, but before I could explain that I had no problems with his friends coming over and driving him places (after an appropriate period of grounding), I just don't want him taking my car, she said, "I just can't talk to you any more right now," and hung up.
We have different outlooks in how severe their punishments should be. In the end it always feels like it goes her way, because I feel like she won't enforce anything I say at her house.
Oh man Jim, so sorry to hear that. As far as blocking him from hanging out with those particular friends, I'm just going to share a story of what my brother is going through this week:
His daughter got in with "the wrong crowd" and started drinking heavily and doing drugs. My brother and his XW were both of the mind that "if she's going to do that I would rather her do it at home so I know where she is" and welcomed her shitty friends into their respective homes. She started failing classes, skipping school, couldn't hold a job, etc. But hey, at least they knew where she was! (rolling eyes) So she finally decided to wise up and try to get into the Navy where she would be FORCED to have some discipline in her life. She tried out and was accepted and stayed clean through boot camp and got her station assignment. I think it was in Chicago? My brother is here in TX. Anyway she got her first leave recently and went home to visit and guess what? She had a nice little drinking and drugs party with her old friends RIGHT IN MY BROTHER'S HOUSE. And yes, basically with his permission although he pretends to not know drinking and drugs were involved (ummm, what did you think they were doing, playing Monopoly?) Anyway long story short, he called me a few days ago and said she failed a drug test and got kicked out. So where does that leave her? Who the hell knows.
My point being- take this thing with your son very seriously even if your W doesn't. Bring the hammer down on his hanging out with those friends. Be loving, but very clear and firm. Draw boundaries and give him the consequences of breaching them. Stick to your guns. Hopefully you get buy-in from your W, but if not then you've got to be the discipline.
I've just got to add a little more to the above story, my brother complained for a year or more about how his daughter and her friends would come to his house and drink all his beer. He'd buy himself a case which would last him a month and they'd drink it all in one night. Plus they would raid the hard liquor and drink all that too. I seriously wanted to slap my brother, who's fault does he think that is??? WHY did he constantly replenish his drink supplies and let them come over AGAIN? Why did he never discipline an underage HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT for this kind of behavior?
With my kids there was never a second chance on that crap and they knew it. My XW accused me of being too hard on the kids and claimed it was one of the reasons for BD, but then later she calls me (on multiple occasions) to discipline them saying "they will only take you seriously, they never listen to me." Oh the irony, what is it, a "fault" of mine or a "strength"? Bottom line- stay true to your character and don't let a WAS or anyone else convince you to compromise your morals.
AS, thanks for that. W lets them get away with stuff like that at her house. I don't, so all parties take place at her house. I am trying to work with her to come up with some consistent punishment, and rules. We'll see what happens.
He came by today and we had a long, frank talk. He is very contrite, totally accepted responsibility for his actions, recognizes the magnitude of the issue, and accepted the consequences without comment or complaint. We talked about why he started, and discussed how to address those issues, and he's on board, enthusiastic, even. Of course, he could just be blowing sunshine up my ass, but time will tell.
There are also consequences among his friends, and at school that have been pretty devastating for him, probably more so than any thing I could have done. All in all, the punishments are pretty severe, whether W enforces what we agree upon or not.
I'm texting with W some today, after our conversation last night. I admit she understands our kids better than I do, so I'm trying to hear what she has to say. I am hoping to get together tomorrow to discuss things like how we are going to file our taxes, and I am going to suggest moving the settlement process forward.
Getting back to the topic of my D, I know I have been hoping that she would have an epiphany and accept her part in the collapse of our marriage, and work with me to fix it, but I've lost that hope recently. I guess it just waned over time.
Maybe because I realized that when I talk to people about her, I do a lot of apologizing for her. I'm realizing just how messed up our relationship was.
I was at her house on S18's birthday. It was a mess. Crap everywhere, and literally, there was dog $hit under the dining room table. I mentioned it, and she said oh, yeah, she thought the dog had done it last night. So she knew about it, and just didn't bother to clean it up. I just don't want to live like that any more.
She just went home to help her mom, and I guess I had hoped that in talking to her mom, she would realize that I wasn't the cause of her problems, and she'd come back with second thoughts. That was obviously a pipe dream.
And working on my taxes has also been good. I've realized that being married, filing separately has a much worse tax rate than single, jointly, or head of household. I now have to give her a say and convince her to file jointly to maximize my refund. If I were single, I wouldn't have that issue, and my refund would be just as big.
Also, we have to get the D finalized before 2019, or alimony won't be deductible to me.
So, I'm growing, and moving on. After all, Divorce is just a piece of paper, right?
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
I am meeting with W for lunch today. Lots for us to talk about. Taxes first, but after that, I'm going to suggest we move the divorce forward.
The Thanksgiving episode where she got herself invited to dinner with my family really helped me start distancing myself, but I heeded AS's suggestion to wait a few months to be sure I was done before taking this step. Over the months, it's just gotten easier to think this way.
I will suggest we try mediation to start. I think a draft settlement agreement she sent me in October will be a good starting point, and hopefully we can knock this out without a huge fight involving the lawyers.
I have a question, though. In the draft settlement agreement, she proposed splitting assets 55/45. My lawyer said her lawyer is just fishing, looking for a bigger portion of the pie, and said since I'm paying alimony and child support per the state formula, that's not something any judge will likely entertain. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
BTW, my son's school suspension was up today. He's said and done all the right things in the last two weeks, so I believe he will try to walk the straight and narrow in the future. I hired a lawyer to go with us to the court hearing, and the lawyer is optimistic he will get into a program for first time offenders, and only have to go to drug awareness classes, get drug tested, and afterward will have his record expunged. I've bought home drug test kits that I can send off to see if he uses again, so I hope we can put this episode behind us. S18 started a new job last night, too.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
Jim....my W and I agreed on everything so we did not go to mediation. My judge friend told me there is no reason to mediate on what you already agree to. My W and I did not get separate lawyers and just used 1 to draw up the papers. She does not represent either one of us and made that very clear.I know everyone is different but we paid a total of $1000 for our D......750 to the lawyer and 250 to file with the county. Everything in our decree was between my W and I with no outside influences.
J9, I wish I were so lucky. She lawyered up, so I had to. Also, now there are going to be areas of disagreement, like the 55/45 split that I'm sure her lawyer prompted her to ask for that are going to complicate things and make our lawyers rich.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
J9, I wish I were so lucky. She lawyered up, so I had to. Also, now there are going to be areas of disagreement, like the 55/45 split that I'm sure her lawyer prompted her to ask for that are going to complicate things and make our lawyers rich.
Are you still working on R or have you completely given up? If you still hope to R, then be accommodating during the divorce proceedings. Kill her with kindness. She won't know what hit her.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I am meeting with W for lunch today. Lots for us to talk about. Taxes first, but after that, I'm going to suggest we move the divorce forward.
The Thanksgiving episode where she got herself invited to dinner with my family really helped me start distancing myself, but I heeded AS's suggestion to wait a few months to be sure I was done before taking this step. Over the months, it's just gotten easier to think this way.
I'm glad you took the time to think about it, if you move forward now then I think you can be confident you are doing it rationally and not as an emotional reaction.
Quote:
I have a question, though. In the draft settlement agreement, she proposed splitting assets 55/45. My lawyer said her lawyer is just fishing, looking for a bigger portion of the pie, and said since I'm paying alimony and child support per the state formula, that's not something any judge will likely entertain. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Alright well here is my thought on this. Is a 50-50 split what you were planning on? Let's say your assets are 300k, so 50-50 would be 150k each. a 55-45 split would cost you how much? In my example it would be 165k/135k instead of 150k/150k so it would cost you an extra 15k. Is 15k worth fighting for? Maybe it is to you, maybe it isn't.
In my case my W and I agreed to a 50-50 split and wrote up the paperwork together, then in the 11th hour she decided I owed her another 20k or 25k or something like that. When I asked for an explanation she sent me a rambling email that made absolutely no sense. So then I asked her to sit down with me to discuss it and she angrily responded "screw it we will let the lawyers fight it out". So I was left with two choices- accept what I felt was an unfair settlement, or fight it out in court. Honestly the cost of the court battle wasn't my deciding factor, just the thought of prolonging this whole mess indefinitely was the deciding factor. I was just starting to recover and rebuild, and the thought of a prolonged court battle had me tied up in knots and having anxiety attacks all over again. So I told her "I don't think this settlement is fair, but I believe that you do, and if you do then I will accept the terms. Go ahead and modify the paperwork and I will review and sign it." And that's what we did, and the rest went very peacefully.
I will tell you that my peace of mind and spirit was worth the extra money. I have zero regrets over that.
Glad to hear your son is taking this seriously, sounds like you did a great job handling that with him!
Originally Posted By: Steve85
Are you still working on R or have you completely given up? If you still hope to R, then be accommodating during the divorce proceedings. Kill her with kindness. She won't know what hit her.
Well, my attitude about D is protect yourself, but be reasonable. That doesn't mean bend over backwards to "appease" them because I don't think appeasing them earns you any brownie points. But as I described above, giving them more than their fair share to bring about a quick conclusion might be better for your own health and welfare in the long run.
Are you still working on R or have you completely given up? If you still hope to R, then be accommodating during the divorce proceedings. Kill her with kindness. She won't know what hit her.
She's moved out, so I don't really see her much. I am not pursuing her at all. I'm GAL, and while I haven't completely given up on the relationship, she expresses no interest in it, and I'm ready to move on. Throughout the entire process, I've tried to be honorable and respectful, while protecting my interests.
Originally Posted By: AnotherStander
I'm glad you took the time to think about it, if you move forward now then I think you can be confident you are doing it rationally and not as an emotional reaction.
[/color] Is a 50-50 split what you were planning on? Let's say your assets are 300k, so 50-50 would be 150k each. a 55-45 split would cost you how much? In my example it would be 165k/135k instead of 150k/150k so it would cost you an extra 15k. Is 15k worth fighting for? Maybe it is to you, maybe it isn't.
I will tell you that my peace of mind and spirit was worth the extra money. I have zero regrets over that.
[color:#000099][color:#330033]I was expecting a 50/50 split, and believe that's fair. Maybe we can make it work that it's 55/45 before tax, and 50/50 after. I don't know, but I have lived well below my means my whole life, and we're talking a difference of about $80K. I don't care who you are, that's an amount worth fighting over.
And personally, I think I would sleep better knowing I fought over it. I don't mind the divorce process so much, but knowing she took so much advantage of my good nature would upset me for the rest of my life.
[color:#000099]You gave me some very sage advice, and I'm glad I listened.
Glad to hear your son is taking this seriously, sounds like you did a great job handling that with him!
I think it's all going to turn out alright. Thanks for your kind feedback.
Well, my attitude about D is protect yourself, but be reasonable.
I believe 50/50 is entirely reasonable, and anything more than that, I would have a hard time letting go of. I mean, I could give her more than that, but $80K? GMAFB
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
She was reluctant to see a mediator to come up with a settlement agreement, and wanted to work it out among ourselves. I told her I thought the mediator might be able to see a third option if we got stuck on some issue, and thought it would be good, but she said she thought we were so close it would be a waste of money. She said she would update the draft agreement she sent me months ago. I said fine. That was two weeks ago, and I haven't heard anything.
Friday, I saw her at the lawyer I hired for my son's pot charge. As we were leaving, I asked her about it. "I thought you were going to send me an updated draft. If we don't go to a mediator, how do you want to move forward." She said she was still waiting for her lawyer to update the draft so she could forward it to me. So I guess we're getting the lawyers involved after all. Oh well.
S18's pot bust will probably turn out OK. He's a first time offender, and can be enrolled in an education program, with his record expunged at successful completion. I told W I would pay the whole bill, since she didn't think we needed a lawyer, and she could pay me whatever she wanted and thought was fair. She suggested splitting it in thirds, with S18 paying a share. Surprised me, and I accepted, but we'll see if I see any of that money.
Not much else to report. Moving on, GAL, dating. Cultivating friendships with other guys. Exercising. Sometimes feeling lonely and sad. Most times not. Miss my kids when they're with her. D16 still having trouble completing homework, but I'm working on that. She's seeing a therapist so she can hopefully work out whatever issues prevent her doing her work.
Time and distance have helped me realize what a mess she is. She took notes and made a to-do list on the placemat when we went for lunch. Outside S18's lawyers she told me she lost the paper, and what did I need from her to finish the taxes? Time, distance, and episodes like this have helped me understand that it wasn't just me. I had my flaws, but the blinders are off, and I am not making excuses for her behavior any more.
I think my biggest issue right now is that I still worry about her, because I think she is probably clinically depressed, but denies it. Her behavior is just plain weird. For someone who professes happiness, she spends an awful lot of time cloistered in her room watching TV (my impression from the state of her house, and offhand remarks by the kids. They are protective of her, and don't tell me about her directly.).
But it's not my problem any more, and I keep reminding myself that.
So here I am, two weeks after my last post, and really nothing's changed.....
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
Jim, I hope everything turns out well for your kids after these temporary setbacks and I hope you're getting somewhat close to the end of the divorce process. One thing that strikes me about your posts is the sheer endurance it takes to get through a divorce. It seems like there are so, so many issues to settle on.
That's nice to hear you're dating. Does that mean like dinner or coffee with different women here-and-there or do you have someone special? I really wonder a lot about this issue. I can't even imagine ever going on a date.
It seems normal to me that you'd worry about your wife. You spent decades with her and loved her all those years. You must have initially come to this forum because you wanted to save your marriage. It's hard to stop caring about our spouses, especially when they leave us and their lives are such a mess. It's so hard to understand why someone would walk away from it all rather than put in effort to fix what went wrong.
I think my biggest issue right now is that I still worry about her, because I think she is probably clinically depressed, but denies it. Her behavior is just plain weird. For someone who professes happiness, she spends an awful lot of time cloistered in her room watching TV (my impression from the state of her house, and offhand remarks by the kids.
Jim...if I remember correctly your W has a side room that she spends most of the day in sleeping, watching TV and smoking correct? That alone is pause for concern and IMO is just not healthy and combined with how her house looks (based on your description) I would say your assessment is probably correct. Love is tough and it's amazing what your willing to accept (I get it) but something tells me the more you get out an experience life and other women you will be better off for it.
...your W has a side room that she spends most of the day in sleeping, watching TV and smoking correct? That alone is pause for concern and IMO is just not healthy and combined with how her house looks (based on your description) I would say your assessment is probably correct. Love is tough and it's amazing what your willing to accept (I get it) but something tells me the more you get out an experience life and other women you will be better off for it.
That's basically correct, except now she has her own house, but not much has changed.
But she has made it clear, via divorce, that I need worry about her problems no longer. I wish it was that easy. You're right, though, the more I get out, the better off I am. And I think I'm doing pretty well.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
Jim, I hope everything turns out well for your kids after these temporary setbacks and I hope you're getting somewhat close to the end of the divorce process. One thing that strikes me about your posts is the sheer endurance it takes to get through a divorce. It seems like there are so, so many issues to settle on.
Thank you. I expect my kids will be alright in the end, but I have to remember it's hard on them, too. In my case D just keeps dragging on. It doesn't have to, though, if both parties are reasonable, and move the process forward. Look at Joseph9.
That's nice to hear you're dating. Does that mean like dinner or coffee with different women here-and-there or do you have someone special? I really wonder a lot about this issue. I can't even imagine ever going on a date.
"Dating post DB" should get it's own forum because there is so much to discuss, I think. It means all of that. It started out with dinner or drinks or whatever with any woman who struck my interest. Sometimes there was no chemistry, sometimes it became quickly apparent we were just looking for different things. I was very up front and honest about not being ready for a relationship. I've had some pleasant evenings, and no disasters, yet. There is a woman I see once a week or so. Maybe more. She is very respectful of my need not to jump into a relationship. We just enjoy each other's company, and she is someone else to do things with.
Don't wonder too much about it. You are still a long way away from there, but I assure you, when you are ready, interested men will appear.
It seems normal to me that you'd worry about your wife. You spent decades with her and loved her all those years. You must have initially come to this forum because you wanted to save your marriage. It's hard to stop caring about our spouses, especially when they leave us and their lives are such a mess. It's so hard to understand why someone would walk away from it all rather than put in effort to fix what went wrong.
You're right about all this. Coming here has really helped me put down the rope, and realize I can't fix it alone. All I can do is be the best me I can, and they can either come along, or not.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
S18 drove out to Chicago with some friends to check out a college to which they were accepted. It's his first choice at this point. The trip was great; lots of things went wrong, as they do on road trips, but they had a great time.
D16 and I went on her first college visit on our way to my family for the weekend. We had a delightful weekend together, and a wonderful time with my family. Even saw the witch who invited W to Thanksgiving briefly, and was cordial. There's nothing like being stuck in a car to foster talking and bonding with your child, and it was great.
The only down side... I told W I wanted the kids for Easter, and she was fine with that. At the time, I thought S would be coming home Easter night, around the same time I got home with D16. When I realized he would be home Saturday night, I was petty, and told him he could either stay alone at my house for the first time or with W. I know he was really excited to stay alone at home, and I was glad W was going to be alone. Petty, I know.
Anyway, W called to get some information about separating the phone bill, realized I took D16 away for the weekend, and S18 probably wasn't going to be joining her for Easter, and was understandably upset. She was complaining about it over the phone; I told her I didn't want to deal with this right now and hung up.
I recognized it was petty of me, so I called S18 and asked if he would stay at W's and he said sure. I texted her, apologized for not coordinating better, and things seem to be ok. I'm not proud of myself for being petty, but I guess I'm human, and not worrying too much about it.
Otherwise it was a great weekend!
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
Jim, I can understand how you'd do that. It doesn't sound like too much harm was done. That's great you and your daughter had quality time together! It must be a nice feeling to reach the college stage with your kids!
J- you gave your son the option and he chose to stay at your place right? How is that petty? She agreed you could have them for Easter and if he is 18 yrs old I assume he is old enough to make his own choices????? When they turn 18 I assume they can come and go as they please between either parents house??
Maybe your intentions were petty but she doesn’t know that and I don’t think you needed to apologize especially since she agreed you could have them.
J- you gave your son the option and he chose to stay at your place right? How is that petty? She agreed you could have them for Easter and if he is 18 yrs old I assume he is old enough to make his own choices????? When they turn 18 I assume they can come and go as they please between either parents house??
Maybe your intentions were petty but she doesn’t know that and I don’t think you needed to apologize especially since she agreed you could have them.
Let's just say my intentions were petty, and I didn't discouraged him to stay here to hurt her a little. I don't really care how she feels about that, but I guess I'm a little disappointed in myself for not being bigger than that.
That's a funny question about S18 that hasn't really come up, whether he is no longer subject to our custody arrangement, and can come and go as he pleases. In my state he's not emancipated until 18 AND graduated from HS, but if he decided he wanted to stay at one house or the other, I'm not sure what would happen.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
Been texting with W about taxes, and a settlement agreement.
Figured we could save a little money filing jointly, but when she started talking about taking me back to Domestic Relations for more alimony and child support it gave me pause and I called my lawyer about it. Basically, if I choose to file jointly, when she takes me back to Domestic Relations she could probably get my alimony/CS increased. Not worth winning the battle but losing the war, so I told her I'd file separately. Since I did all the calculations to see which filing status would be best anyway, I offered to do hers, too. She's appreciative of that.
Paqt of the text conversation was about an updated draft settlement agreement. She says one should be forthcoming shortly. I'm strangely ambivalent. I'm the one who has been pushing her to get it done. I guess I've realized that she's never going to own her share of the failure of our marriage, and I don't want to reconcile with her just to go back to the same marriage. Of course, now that I'm typing it, I'm getting a bit melancholy.
The last draft, from Aug 17, was actually just fine with me, except for her asking for a 55/45 split. I knew there would be changes, because the draft, written by her lawyer, asked for things which I knew she didn't want. That was a bit weird, explaining how her own lawyer's document wasn't what she actually wanted.
In our texting, I said very simply "if this draft proposes a 55-45 split you might as well not even bother sending it." She replied her lawyer put that in there, and she's fine with 50-50. I was shocked it would be that easy. I thought we were going to court to fight over that, and everyone but the lawyers would lose.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
Typical negotiation trick. Ask for things that you don't want, that way when you give them up the other party feels that they "won". Her lawyer is slick, but not that slick if you recognized that she wouldn't want those things. Likely it was done to get you to agree to 55/45. "Ok, if we keep it 55/45 then we will give up claim to these things she didn't want anyway."
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Steve, I hear what you're saying, and I'll keep on guard against that kind of thing. I think it was just a case of her not being interested in reading the details, trusting that her lawyer's settlement agreement would be suitable, and not realizing that he just printed out a stock agreement after changing the names and dates.
My impression is that when I said I wouldn't even entertain a document that said 55-45, she was surprised it said that, agreed with me, and said she would get it changed.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
Jim, It sounds like you're making progress with each step. I wonder why your wife wouldn't want to file jointly to save money? Why would that be worth a fight? Your wife is little greedy in some of her requests! It seems you're doing the right think by letting her go and not trying to reconcile at this point, but it's just too bad your wife doesn't want to put in the hard work to get her act together, save the marriage, and make her life better. You have no control over that. You seem to be doing what's fair financially and cooperating well. All of your actions sound appropriate.
Nicole, I don't have any idea why she wouldn't want to file jointly and get a little extra money back, but in the long run, after talking to my lawyer, it's to my benefit to file separately.
Originally Posted By: NicoleR
It seems you're doing the right think by letting her go and not trying to reconcile at this point, but it's just too bad your wife doesn't want to put in the hard work to get her act together, save the marriage, and make her life better. You have no control over that. You seem to be doing what's fair financially and cooperating well. All of your actions sound appropriate.
The nice thing about time and distance is it's helped me realize I don't want to be married to the woman my wife became any more. That realization makes it a lot easier to let go. I'm not saying "easy", but "easier". I still have times that I wish things were different.
I'm still trying to do right by her, and be fair, because, after all, I have to live with myself afterward. I appreciate that you think my actions sound appropriate.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
The nice thing about time and distance is it's helped me realize I don't want to be married to the woman my wife became any more. That realization makes it a lot easier to let go. I'm not saying "easy", but "easier". I still have times that I wish things were different.
Jim just want to point out that these two things ARE mutually exclusive. Not wanting to be married to who she has become, and wishing things were different are harmonious. Wishing she hadn't become what she has become is natural. I applaud you for realizing that you don't like who she has become. So many of us get into denial and want to think we are still dealing with the girl that we married.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Jim, hopefully when everything is done and settles down your wife will appreciate your fairness and will start to better see her own role. Someday she must reconsider at least once or twice. Like, "Did I make the right decision? Am I really happier now that Jim is gone?" Not that you're waiting for that to happen, but it's always nice to be optimistic and think your original wife is hiding in there somewhere.
Jim, hopefully when everything is done and settles down your wife will appreciate your fairness and will start to better see her own role. Someday she must reconsider at least once or twice. Like, "Did I make the right decision? Am I really happier now that Jim is gone?" Not that you're waiting for that to happen, but it's always nice to be optimistic and think your original wife is hiding in there somewhere.
It would be nice to think she appreciates my fairness, that she might reconsider, and the "real" W is in there somewhere, but I'm not holding my breath. I'm not sure why, but complete detachment seems harder for me than for many on this forum, and I think it's because I'm holding onto the hope that what you say is true. I think it makes the whole process harder. I think you might be dealing with the same problem.
A new issue I'm dealing with is my D16 lying to me about completing her homework. When I confronted her about it, she said "How else will I get to do what I want to do?" As you can imagine, that didn't go over well. The problem is that an hour afterwards, it was time to go over to W's house. I told W about it and what I thought should be done, punishments, etc., but doubt she'll follow through.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
I got a separation proposal from her lawyer today. I'm strangely ambivalent about it. I guess I've started thinking about this as the end of a business arrangement. The fact that that is how I am feeling kind of makes me sad. Strange, isn't it?
The proposal is pretty straightforward, and doesn't have much I feel like arguing over. I made one quick comment at the end of last week, and 55/45 split easily became 50/50. There's a minor issue of a shifted decimal point; it says I have 10X more savings bonds that I actually do, but that will be easy to fix, I think. Some other small issues, but I'm optimistic it should be relatively easy.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
Not much to say about the lawyer visit. He answered some questions I had, changed things in her proposal that I asked him to change, agreed that some things her lawyer put in didn't really make sense, and will change those passages.... He wants me to come up with current values of assets, so that will take a few days to get together.
All in all, I think this is going to cost us at least twice as much as if she would have agreed to use a mediator. Not that it's contentious, there are just a lot of pieces that could have easily been worked out between us, rather than going back and forth between our lawyers. Oh, well, it's only money.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
Jim, it would have been nice to save money but it's good you have a positive outlook on how the paperwork is being handled. I'm sure the lawyers appreciate the business! I see it's been almost a year since your wife moved out. How do you feel about that?
Not much to say about the lawyer visit. He answered some questions I had, changed things in her proposal that I asked him to change, agreed that some things her lawyer put in didn't really make sense, and will change those passages.... He wants me to come up with current values of assets, so that will take a few days to get together.
All in all, I think this is going to cost us at least twice as much as if she would have agreed to use a mediator. Not that it's contentious, there are just a lot of pieces that could have easily been worked out between us, rather than going back and forth between our lawyers. Oh, well, it's only money.
Your last paragraph reminded me of a scene from When Harry Met Sally:
Harry Burns: Right now everything is great, everyone is happy, everyone is in love and that is wonderful. But you gotta know that sooner or later you're gonna be screaming at each other about who's gonna get this dish. This eight dollar dish will cost you a thousand dollars in phone calls to the legal firm of That's Mine, This Is Yours.
Sally: Harry.
Harry Burns: Please, Jess, Marie. Do me a favor, for your own good, put your name in your books right now before they get mixed up and you won't know whose is whose. 'Cause someday, believe it or not, you'll go 15 rounds over who's gonna get this coffee table. This stupid wagon wheel ROY ROGERS GARAGE SALE COFFEE TABLE!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
It's been a while since I've updated this, but I haven't really had anything to talk about. Just kind of gettin' on gettin' on.
Had a really good weekend with the kids. I took them to see Infinity War on Friday night. D16 and I had planned to go for weeks, and S18 wasn't sure he wanted to go with us, or was going with friends. I went to buy tickets early in the afternoon, and texted him to see whether I should buy 2 or 3 tickets. He was at Ws, but didn't get back to me, so I texted her to ask him for a response and threw in an invitation for her as well. She declined to eat dinner with us beforehand, but joined us for the movie. No pressure, we got on well, and had a nice time.
Saturday, I took the kids to meet my brother and his kids at Hershey Park for the day. Everyone had a blast. Sunday was just kind of spent recovering.
I asked W a little while ago to go over her proposal and see if we could work it out among ourselves so we could keep the lawyer's fees down. We made a lunch appointment, but she wasn't feeling well, so we talked over the phone on Friday instead. The discussion was fairly productive; it got heated for a few minutes, but we calmed down and got the conversation back on track. But it wasn't working well, because I couldn't really retype the document, or cut and paste what we liked and agreed to. There were some contentious issues, but things went pretty smoothly, so I suggested we meet with a mediator, and she agreed. We have an appointment next week.
Something that came up was paying for college and she told me, yet again, "you should have worked more." I explained why I didn't (I thought we had college well in hand, and we did, until she took the money set aside for college and bought a house.). I hadn't done that before, but on the drive to Hershey, I had some time to think, and realized validation probably would have been a better tactic. Sunday, I needed to talk about the kids, so I called, apologized for dismissing her feelings all those years, and then validated what she said, including "I should have either communicated our financial situation better or worked more so you would feel financially safe and secure," and then started talking to her about the kids so she wouldn't feel any pressure. It was a simple apology, and I validated her feelings without any further discussion. Don't know if it did our situation any good, but I feel I did well.
On another front, a woman I had been dating broke it off because I wasn't putting much effort into the relationship, and didn't make her a priority. She's right. From the start, I told her I wasn't interested in a relationship and only wanted to date. There were no hard feelings on either side. She was pleasant company, but we wanted very different things. We left the door open. so if my situation changes in a year or so, who knows?
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
This is just my opinion, but I don't think you should have apologized for not working more... She should apologize for putting a house ahead of her child's college education... I am assuming she was a stay-home mom... If so, perhaps she should have put in extra time with your child so he could have received a full-on scholarship... I am sure that sounds ridiculous, but so does her insistence that you should have worked more... Again, just my opinion...
Artista, I get where you are coming from, but I don't feel like I apologized for not working more, but rather for dismissing her feelings and threatening her perception of her financial security and safety. That's badly worded, but I hope it makes sense.
She wasn't a stay at home mom, but physical issues prevented her from working more, and then depression because of the physical issues wreaked havoc.
Believe me, I agree with you about her buying the house, and her insistence on me working more, but she's not about to apologize for these things.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
Jim, I admire how you continue to improve your communication with your wife even in the face of divorce.
That's too bad about the woman you were dating but hopefully when the time is write you'll re-connect with her or meet someone else. It's good that you feel open to meeting new people and getting out on dates. It must be a strange feeling after being married for so many years!
Jim, glad to hear you are doing well and that's great that y'all are working things out without the lawyers, it takes a lot of the sting out of it.
Quote:
"I should have either communicated our financial situation better or worked more so you would feel financially safe and secure,"
OK well that is not validation. That is basically agreeing with what she said, and I agree with Artista, you should NOT have done that because SHE was really the one at fault for draining the account to buy something for herself. Validation would go more like this:
"You should have worked more to pay for the college fund!"
"You sound frustrated, is that how you feel?"
"Yes!"
"Why do you think that frustrates you?"
"I guess because I don't know what's going to happen, if we'll be able to pay for it now."
"I can tell you are frustrated, I am sorry you feel that way. Even though we are divorcing we are still a team when it comes to the kids and we will work this through."
The difference is validation is NOT agreeing, it's simply seeking to understand her feelings and validating her FEELINGS, not the original comment.
Jim, I admire how you continue to improve your communication with your wife even in the face of divorce.
That's too bad about the woman you were dating but hopefully when the time is write you'll re-connect with her or meet someone else. It's good that you feel open to meeting new people and getting out on dates. It must be a strange feeling after being married for so many years!
Thanks, Nicole. After reading Artista, and AS, maybe I'm not improving my communication as much as I thought!
As far as dating, it helps if you just think of them as just.. . dates. Nothing more than that. In some ways it's easier than before I was married, in some ways harder. But yes, it can be strange, in a number of ways.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
Jim, glad to hear you are doing well and that's great that y'all are working things out without the lawyers, it takes a lot of the sting out of it.
Quote:
"I should have either communicated our financial situation better or worked more so you would feel financially safe and secure,"
OK well that is not validation. That is basically agreeing with what she said, and I agree with Artista, you should NOT have done that because SHE was really the one at fault for draining the account to buy something for herself. Validation would go more like this:
"You should have worked more to pay for the college fund!"
"You sound frustrated, is that how you feel?"
"Yes!"
"Why do you think that frustrates you?"
"I guess because I don't know what's going to happen, if we'll be able to pay for it now."
"I can tell you are frustrated, I am sorry you feel that way. Even though we are divorcing we are still a team when it comes to the kids and we will work this through."
The difference is validation is NOT agreeing, it's simply seeking to understand her feelings and validating her FEELINGS, not the original comment.
Well, I obviously have more work to do in this area. Every time I think I'm validating, you let me know I still don't quite get it. Or maybe you let me know I'm still waaaaaay off. Either way, I appreciate you trying to keep me on the straight and narrow, and I'll keep trying to improve.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
Nothing much going on with W, but I had a big blow up with D16 last night. She is in real danger of failing two classes and being held back a year because she simply hasn't done the work. She's entirely capable; she just can't be bothered.
I have been working closely with her teachers to make sure her work gets done, but she's been lying to me about what work she's completed and turned in. It takes a day or two to get feedback from her teachers and catch her in her lies. In this particular case, she is late turning in a homework from two weeks ago. The teacher is patient, understanding, and willing to work with us, but pretty soon, has to start deducting credit for late work. She has to get a 95% this quarter just to pass for the year, and can't afford to lose any credit. When I realized she was lying to me yesterday afternoon, I told her she had to finish this work last night, no matter how long it took.
At midnight, she wasn't done, and tried to sneak off to bed. Now, I am a big believer that they should get a good night's sleep, but in my opinion, finishing this work for full credit was more important than missing some sleep for one night, so I made her continue working on it. Staying up until midnight to make sure D16 does her homework isn't my idea of a good time, but I felt I had to make sure she finished. I wasn't hovering over her; she was in a separate part of the house. At 1:30, she still wasn't done, but said she was close. At 2:00 am, she said she just had a few more things to do and was going to bed. I pointed out that since she's been lying to me, I couldn't be sure she was almost done, and I said, "no, you're not. You're going to finish this and show it to me when it's done." This started her arguing, saying I needed to give her space, and I should go to my bedroom so she could finish it.
I got a little heated at that point, telling her no way was I going to banish myself to my bedroom so the little princess could have her space. I explained that it was MY house, and if she didn't have enough space, she could leave.
So she did, and walked over to her mom's, about a mile away. After I cooled down a bit, I followed in my car to make sure she got there safely.
Her mom's not there. She's on a business trip, but I figured the best thing I could do at that point was let her sleep there, and have S18 pick her up there for school in the morning.
Right now I'm thinking boundaries aren't only for the XW. I'm realizing my boundaries for D16 are she can't lie to me, has to be current on her schoolwork, and has to be respectful enough to do those two things. Otherwise, as much as it will hurt us both in the short term, I will "invite" her to stay at W's, instead of coming here.
I am going to hear an earful when W returns, I'm sure. W also won't like the fact that W's going to have to find somewhere for D16 to stay when she's on a trip.
Any input would be appreciated.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
I've had similar issues with one of my teens. I know how infuriating those situations can be.
However, I think if I were your wife, it would feel like you had shifted all the responsibility onto me, with no discussion. What if your wife gave your daughter a similar ultimatum? Do you feel comfortable having your daughter kicked out of both parental homes? And if not, it doesn't seem fair for you to kick her out of your home.
Personally, I don't feel comfortable kicking a child of that age out for anything less than behavior that endangers other family members.
The natural consequence of not doing work is failing a grade. The natural consequence of lying is not being trusted.
Last edited by Cadet; 05/04/1806:26 AM. Reason: Start a new thread message
Me: 44 H: 44 Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10 Together/Married: 22 years H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16 H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
