Adjusting to being a LBS #2

[Subitai]

Previous Thread Adjusting to being a LBS

Sitch :
3 attempts at MC, I never did the IC I needed, only atarted IC after BD, wife connsiders any improvements after BD to be self serving and too little too late.

No EA/PA known, no substance abuse, physical abuse, etc.

Communication issues, my anger issues (controlling through anger) and her feeling like we became too mean to each other.

Separating late Jan, Bird Nesting style where the kids stay in the house and we live in a shared studio apartment when we don’r have the kids.

Currently :

She is leaving today for a week work trip. She saw the apartment we will split and said it is sad. It is kinda sad, it is a studio.

My 180s :
Trying to be kinder. No muttering, passive agressive, bs that wwnt on before

IC for PTSD and Anger, dealing with divorce.

Accepting responsibility for anger issues with kids. Working on better, non angry parenting.

Telling her more about my internal feelings (i am a closed person) but trying to not make that pursuing.

Positive signs : She said she is confused, can’t even say the word D, and dies not want to make it generally known that we are Ding so we don’t have to walk it back if we change our minds... many paths open to us.

Negative signs : all positive signs are “what ifs” and she still only considera are MC to be DC. Admitting the full extent of my anger issues to myself and her scared her a bit and made her question 50/50 custody.

Whew!

Told my kids I was in IC for anger. They said I was good daddy, but I did yell too much. I said I wanted to be a better Daddy. Owned up to specific problematic anger events for each of them and appologized, hugs, I cried a bit. W was there to help the kids understand and make sure I didn’t over explain. I have a tendancy to treat them like little adults and give too much context they shouldn’t have.

[Subitai]

Wife just left, very perfunctory hug and out the door.

[Vanilla]

My thinking is that you should be as friendly as you can. And as open as you can about your feelings.

In actual fact control through anger is easier to shift than other issues.

I would like to see you with some directed exercise, tai chi, boxing or endurance exercise. Change in diet and exploration into your nutritional and hormonal status.

Working on these control issues is usually some derived insecurity and shift is perfectly possible. As there has been no violence on your part then shift can be made.

Let me describe what I know about shift, when shift occurs that changes a lot of things including physiology, hormone output, brain plasticity, epigenetic change. This changes things as wide as posture, skin tone, and even attitude. This is irreversible. Once you know then you will never unknow.

On your last thread you hinted that there were issues surrounding teenage incidents leading to trauma?

You also suggested that as a result IC itself was a trauma?

Are you happy to discuss it? You can say no V, that's ok, I will not be offended.

As an alternate I do have another thread relating to FOO which can be used.

At minimum we caneed explore further development as a dad.

I especially like the way you apologised to your children.

V

[Subitai]

I will be friendly. I am guessing no saying ILY... but what if she says it first? Can I say it back?

I am starting Meditation and Yoga at the gym, and I am starting training for an endurance cycling event.

As for the IC trauma, when I was a teenager I was prescribed an anti depressant that caused a suicide attempt, 2 weeks in ICU, and several months of involuntary commitment. I hated the psych who did that to me and did not trust therapy at all after that. That is part of why MC failed three times before. Going to IC after the BD caused full blown panic attacks, as have a few other things that reminded me of the incident after the original panic attakc about IC. That happened in front of my wife anf MC the week after BD before my first IC session. I almost could not go to the IC or even to the MC alone to talk to her about the IC to get enough gumption up to see the IC. Both IC and MC have said this is PTSD from teenage years. I have soooooo much on my emotional plate right now.

I am finally ok at IC, and look forward to it. I want to change these problems.

[Joe2017]

Can you do phone counseling? Being in your home and talking to a counselor in your own environment might help ease your anxiety.

[Subitai]

Can you do phone counseling? Being in your home and talking to a counselor in your own environment might help ease your anxiety.

I am actually doing ok face to face now.

[Joe2017]

That's great! See? You're making progress. We're all here because of marriages, but it seems like the solutions all just come down to making ourselves better at life.

[Vanilla]

Do you love W? If she says ILU then yes it's ok to say it if you feel it.

Your W doesn't appear in any way wayward. She is a walker so be authentic be you.

If one of your issues was not expressing enough then this is a 180 for you. Not saying it is same old same old. Don't go overboard though, respond at about 80%.

You had a paradoxical response to the Meds given to you. I can understand how that is PTSD.

Anxiety attacks won't kill you, although they are truly horrid. They are also embarrassing and in some cases shaming. It's ok and you are through it!

Excellent, excellent, excellent.

That's wonderful to read, a real challenge overcome.

V

[Subitai]

I love her. Without a doubt I do. I just don’t know how to win her back without driving her off.

We have hd much better talks, but still not as much about her. I will continue to be open about my emotions and thoughts, but try not to pish them on her. Maybe I should write a letter for her to read when she gets back.

[Verum]

Maybe I should write a letter for her to read when she gets back.

I suggest write the letter, but put it away and think about the pros and cons of actually giving it to her. Maybe review the DB book again and think about what are your goals, 180s, etc and see if the letter fits into those plans.

[Subitai]

That's a good idea, FastCars. Writing it and putting it away is a good plan. I will probably do several drafts, too.

[Vanilla]

I like the idea of a letter. I recollect pigment wrote one to his WAW, with the help of the wonderful Wonka.

It was an apology, they didn't R, but they bridged his alcoholism. Pigment is doing great.

What you want to say today isn't going to be what you want to say tomorrow, next week, next month......

So can I suggest you write 5 letters

One for W
One for each child
And one to future Subitai after he has resolved his stuff
And one for little Subitai who had such an awful pradoxical reaction with his meds

----------------------

You will want to revise, revise, revise.......

It is important you don't send and that you don't censor yourself

Do you think you can do those?

V

[Vanilla]

Pigpen not pigment...

Groan Groan Groan

V

[Subitai]

Writing and not sending is a good plan.

[Subitai]

Okay, I wrote the letter to my W. It has several different apologies all laid out, talking about what I think are the main problems we had that were wholly my doing.

I'm sending it to my IC to see what they think, and I'll talk with him about it later this week.

It was... weird to write. I feel way more empathy for her position after enumerating my apologies.

These were the sections : (Not cut and pasting because google-fu would lead her right here if she wanted)

1) Not doing IC right away, years ago. Blaming it on my PTSD over therapy is not a sufficient excuse.
2) Defensiveness and meanness. I looked back at our relationship and picked out a notable moment from 10 years ago that indicated this is a longer seated issue that I have so far admitted. This was an eye opener. Saying "what about the good times" does not excuse this.
3) Lying : I have a hard time admitting to failure, so gaslight myself and others about the reasons behind failure, or casting it in the best possible light. I didn't even really understand what or why I was doing this. Sometimes I feel like my worth is solely based on my performance in life (because of emotionally distant, blah blah blah) but that's no excuse for this.
4) Emotional Distance : Basically, I only shared good emotions, and kept other emotions bottled up until they showed up as anger. I should have talked to her more about my doubts, fears, and failures honestly, along with telling her about the good things.
5) The begging and emotional blackmail/etc from the BD. It's not easy for her right now, either, and I let her know I know that, and that I'm trying to be in a place where we can talk without me making her exhausted.
6) Bonus : Apology that fixing these things can't happen immediately. Admitting I will be a work in progress for awhile.
7) Saying I'm sorry our M is where it is, acknowledging her "many paths" discussion we had, and whatever we wind up on, I want us to be able to respect and care about each other while being the best parents/co-parents we can.

I end with roughly : "I do love and respect you as a good person/mom/etc. I should have shown you that all the time, not just in the good times."

With L and Kindness,
Subitai

[Subitai]

Some very light chatting last night while she was face-timing the kids. Only a minute or two, and I did not try and drag it out.

[Vanilla]

OK next step

(Incidentally I think it's great you chat on this with your IC.)

What do you are you will you do to ensure this is different?

I suggest you take each item and identify that. How long will it take when will you know you have mastered it?

I would love you to do the other letters as I think they will have an impact on this one.

If you will stay with me on this, there are two more steps.

OK?

So this must still be a very rough draft.......

V

[Subitai]

Those are great questions. I need to noodle on each area. Just saying it's a problem won't fix it, that's for sure!

[Subitai]

Okay, for each section I laid out a "What will I do" "How will I know if progress is being made" "What is 'solved' for this problem", "Identifying backsliding", and "Actions to take during backsliding." All of them have several (3-5) bullet points.

I gotta say, I started crying a bit when I was writing out the emotional openess section.

Again, cut and paste is probably a bad idea in case I ever DO give her this, even if I wind up heavily editing it.

I haven't done the other letters, yet, though. I'm sure they will result in re-examination and editing of this letter.

It looks like a Performance Improvement Plan from work, honestly. Which is kind of what it is!

[Subitai]

Got some awful news that I was expecting, not related to the D or our R. Brought me a little down. I'm glad the W is not around right now so I'm not tempted to talk to her about it. Trying to process so I can be upbeat and happy for our last week together.

[Vanilla]

Do you want to chat about the news S?

I am here, if you don't want to post here I am happy if you use my thread in Surviving.

V

[Subitai]

Thanks Vanilla. It's just... it's not something I need to deal with just yet. I have so much more on my plate right now, and digging into it would just add to the pile of junk I have to eat my way through. I'm trying to process it so it doesn't come up with the WaW, but not really worry about it long term. And it's not something she doesn't know about, but it's something I don't want in the conversation right now. It would not be productive.

[Subitai]

Spent the day moving some stuff into the apartment. W comes back tonight, IC later today, and MC and the BD to our kids are all this week. My last week in a ‘whole’ family. I feel weird about it.

[petri]

S: I remember our last evening as a whole family. I was going for a work related trip for three days before she moved out. I made food and thought we would eat as a family, W thought differently. We talked about the move. I asked if she would move on the exact day or the next day when I had returned home. "I want to get the BEEB out of this BEEBING house as soon as possible. So yes on the exact day." When we went to bed(I hadn't kicked her out from MBR b/c I didn't know better) I touched her back and tried to say something to her. "Don't you BEEBING touch me!" That was the last thing she said to me before moving out.

[Vanilla]

S be friendly as you can be.

OK.

Keep that door open as wide as you can and smile.....

V

[Subitai]

Petri,

That sounds awful. I have it easy compared to a lot of you guys.

Vanilla, roger that and will do!

[Clyde]

I feel for you, our initial split as a family was initiated suddenly in the form of a TRO, however once that got thrown out a few days later the W moved into an apartment, I watched as she left the family home with the kids for the first time... watching her tail lights fade drove away was one of the hardest moments I've endured in life.

Little did I know in that moment that the following months would be the most formative in my adult life (to date). From the time of BD to reconcile, the separation was the best option given the state of our R. Like Cadet says at the end of his welcoming post, "Your W is giving you a GIFT. The gift of time. Use it wisely."

Hang in there

[Subitai]

Thanks Clyde. Hopefully the S helps us like it helped you guys. How did your kids do theough it all? I am most worried about the impact on my little ones.

[Clyde]

My S7 & S5 did okay, they expressed their discontent with the sitch and asked often when Mom was going to come home... with time they adjusted as best they could given the sitch.

My D13 took it hard but a lot of that had to do with her knowing of things no child should have to try to comprehend. D13 had been secretly reading her moms text and emails prior to and after BD, she also got her hands on her moms copies of the court docs... D13 got very defensive of me and started to despise her mom. This made it very difficult to shield my D13 from the dynamics of the sitch. That is key though, to shield them from the madness, do whatever you can to reassure them that both Mom and Dad love them.

Prior to what I feel was my W's MLC and BD, my W was a true June Cleaver... our kids had hot breakfast most mornings, notes in their lunch boxes, story time every night, and so forth. While I could not fill the physical void of their Mom not being there, I was determined for the rest of their home life to stay the same. Yeah there was the nights were I did simple chicken nuggets and Mac and cheese, but the majority of the time I cooked meals like my W did... I did all the little (and big) things she did, I told myself that I could not skip a beat when it came to the kids home life. I really think all this helped the kids and for me it was a form of GAL.

[Adios]

While I could not fill the physical void of their Mom not being there, I was determined for the rest of their home life to stay the same. Yeah there was the nights were I did simple chicken nuggets and Mac and cheese, but the majority of the time I cooked meals like my W did... I did all the little (and big) things she did, I told myself that I could not skip a beat when it came to the kids home life. I really think all this helped the kids and for me it was a form of GAL.

I admire you so much for this Clyde. You sound like an awesome Dad!

[Clyde]

Thanks GalPal,

There are no greater compliments then those regarding ones parenting.

[Subitai]

Clyde, I agree. Way to step up.

We had dinner at her parents' place, and the ride up was nice. The kids were being horrible, but I feel like I did an okay job of keeping things even keeled. Thank god for IC, amiright? I used calming techniques, etc.

W's dad asked a lot of questions after dinner, and I explained a lot of the situation to him, in general terms, nothing specific, and offered support to my W's position for him. He's been very unsupportive of W right now, and I urged him to listen to her, and not talk about his opinions/etc, but just to listen. I don't think he got it since he said that's all he would ever do. I told them I was in IC about things, told them that they don't know what W has had to go through, and said they should offer better support to her. I absolutely tried to make sure he wasn't 'on my side' in this. But I don't know how well that went.

W didn't say anything about the discussion on the way home. Instead we talked about a show she had seen recently, and at one point, she said rather vehemently that she wishes I had seen it, too.

Had an incident where I got defensive, apologized about it today, explained why I was feeling defensive, but then apologized again.

This is hard. Fighting is gone. We still talk. We still laugh. I miss her. We start separation in less than a week, and it's going to gut me, and the kids are going to need a lot of attention, and I won't be there for them, which is going to suck so hard.

Our R is better than it's been in years, except that W has no interest in it.

[AnotherStander]

Our R is better than it's been in years, except that W has no interest in it.

No interest right now. That's OK though, you're keeping the way home paved and smooth! Well done!

[Subitai]

Our R is better than it's been in years, except that W has no interest in it.

No interest right now. That's OK though, you're keeping the way home paved and smooth! Well done!

That's the hope. Be the lighthouse, etc. Well, the lighthouse that is GALing and detaching.

[NicoleR]

Subitai, if your relationship is better than it's been in years I think that means something. I'd view that as a sign that there's still a strong connection between you and your wife. She could still change her mind at any time if the two of you are getting along. Have you heard of the Mort Fertel Marriage Fitness program? Maybe you can try that to see if it helps.

[Subitai]

Subitai, if your relationship is better than it's been in years I think that means something. I'd view that as a sign that there's still a strong connection between you and your wife. She could still change her mind at any time if the two of you are getting along. Have you heard of the Mort Fertel Marriage Fitness program? Maybe you can try that to see if it helps.

Well, while we are getting along better, and communicating better, W is still showing no interest in making M work. So R is better, but M is still off the table, so trying a program right now seems counter productive. We'll begin official separation this weekend, starting Sunday.

Last night I had an incredibly vivid dream of my wife scooting over and cuddling with me, and then tenderly kissing me and saying "Let's make this work." It shocked me awake, it felt so real. I couldn't get back to sleep for awhile after that. It made this morning sadder.

[Subitai]

W came home and asked me how my day was, thanked me for making dinner, and worked with the kids, who were being awful. She was wondering if we should tell the kids and wait a week longer to start the separation instead of starting it this weekend. She phrased it by saying she couldn’t remember if the MC said we shiuld give then a week to adjust. I said MC said to give them a day or two, not a whole week.

She is in the bedroom doing worrk.

So not looking forward to the talk on Saturday. But it needs to be done.

[Subitai]

A little bit of talking tonight. W finally said we need to be careful with kids as kids of divorce have a harder time, which is a wild change from her ‘kids are resiliant and adaptable’ stance. I did too much talking, though. Needed to listen more, but ine of my 180s is being more open with her when she is willing to listen. So, mixed bag.

[Verum]

So not looking forward to the talk on Saturday. But it needs to be done.

Telling the kids is tough. This is a moment where you need to be the strong head of the household and do the talking. Remember its not the end yet, and you have time.

[Subitai]

Today, kids were being rough in the morning, wife was trying to jolly them along as much as possible, got behind schedule, and headed out without saying goodbye.

She texted me asking me to call her after I dropped the kids off at school.

We talked about what to do for dinner/etc, about our elderly ailing dog, and about practicing our 'speech' for the kids tonight. But... it was the first time she's asked me to call in awhile. Admittedly, it is all business, but that was nice.

She also talked about having a once a week 'break' instead of going a full week between seeing the kids.

Just a status. Nothing significant about any of this, really. The grind continues to grind.

[Vanilla]

I sense you are growing. That's what is important to me.

V

[Subitai]

Well, the separation has started. The kids took the initial news okay, but as they digested it, my daughter really got distraught. "If you have the power make it stop, why won't you?" It was hard explaining that there were problems Mommy and Daddy couldn't fix, and so we were doing this so that we can be better parents who don't fight with each other.

Urgh.

Had a couple of DB fails while talking over stuff. WaW does not want the kids to see the apartment until it's 'set up' but has no definition for that. The kids want to see where Mommy and Daddy go. I kept trying to get her to see that seeing an apartment with bare walls is not the traumatizing thing here, but she wouldn't budge, and got mad and accused me of railroading her and of being destructive because I mentioned maybe taking the kids over in front of the kids (we had had several discussions about this already with the kids) since they were surprised that the spare couch was gone.

Kids had some playdates, and immediately told their friends their parents were getting divorced, so the news will be spreading like wildfire. Kids teachers were informed as a precaution.

My daughter cried and clung on to me last night when I was supposed to be leaving. That hurt so much.

I will see them briefly on Wednesday as my W and I are going to a show we purchased tickets for well before the BD.

I'm sitting here wondering how the kids are doing at school, with no info.

[Subitai]

Divorce Diet update : 33 pounds.

My clothes don't fit right anymore.

[Verum]

I hope the bird nesting let's you both have some space and hopefully help both you and your W. I don't see why you cannot show the kids the apartment? Whatever.

33 pounds is a lot. Exercise is important, otherwise you lose muscle mass too. I suggest you treat yourself and start buying some new clothes. When the W sees you, you'll be the "new Subitai" a much leaner, better dressed man.

[Subitai]

We need to do some financial divesting, first. Right now, almost all our money goes to 'joint' accounts. So buying new clothes has bad optics.

It's early to tell on the bird nesting. It's still 'shared space' but hopefully we'll be able to adjust to it. Leaving it clean, etc, is going to be vitally important to making her feel like it's 'hers' as well as mine. Some individual storage areas would be nice, so you can sweep anything that is 'yours' away for the rest of the week if you're not bringing it back and forth. She is loathe to spend money on the place, so arguing for a dresser/storage/etc might be pretty hard.

Still trying to be a lighthouse. It's just so discouraging to see so little progress in several months. Gotta stay focused, continue GALing, and keep working on myself for me and the kids.

[Subitai]

Also, w regards to the weight loss... I have another 10-20 pounds of truly excess weight at a minimum, and I've joined a gym and been doing yoga/etc. I'm sure I've lost SOME muscle, but I'm not in starvation mode. At least not too badly. Still eating 2-3 meals plus a snack every day. I've always been bad with breakfast. Had a huge lunch today (burger, fries, beer) so that helps.

Waking up in a totally quiet apartment with no wife, no dogs, and no kids was insanely eerie.

[Salazar]

Divorce Diet update : 33 pounds.

My clothes don't fit right anymore.

I am always interested to see how this relates to your overall weight relatively. If you started out at 100lbs, thats very worrying!


In the year prior to BD, I cut out sugar from my intake (well... mostly, ha) and I lost about 10% of my starting weight. I was slightly above average in weight, but nothing that I would be described as obese to start with or anything like that. In the 2 months post BD, I have lost another 10% of original weight. I now fit pants that I wore 10+ years ago.

She is loathe to spend money on the place, so arguing for a dresser/storage/etc might be pretty hard.

A few options for you maybe, depending on what region you live in:

1) Check used places for furniture, IE craiglist etc. You can be flexible in the piece, so hit some people at 50%+ off what they are asking. If you message 50 people, you only need one to say yes.
2) Ikea has some surprisingly low prices on items, if you have one nearby it may be worth a stop. Depending on what you pick, it may last a while or it may fall apart - so be sure to check it out well.
3) If you have a guest bedroom etc in your house, you may be able to take a few items from there and re-purpose them at the apartment. My W basically took the guest bed, guest dresser, and guestroom TV. There were a few other random small furniture pieces like end tables etc that we had around the house - one from each room type of thing. I had a small sofa in my office that was rarely used, that is now in her living room. She bought a pot and pan set and a coffee table to complete the place. My house does feel a bit empty here and there, but not overly so. Depending on your situation with the kids, that may not be a great idea to start moving out pieces.

Also, keep in mind, if you buy anything now and then end up not needing the apartment, you can always sell the items second hand to recoup some of what you spent.

[Subitai]

Apparently I am not as good at detaching and DBing as I should be. At DC, wife brought up how hard it was telling the kids because I basically badgered her about if she was sure, absolutely sure she wanted this before we told the kids, making her feel like she had to defend herself all over again. Ugh. Well, what's done is done. Also, at DC I got the equivalent of IDLY. She said what was the other option to divorce? Stay married when she doesn't have those feelings for me anymore? She didn't say IDLY, but the effect was the same. A gut punch for sure. I had, in my head, been believing she still loved me, but just didn't think I could change, and all my 180s would save the day. Those feelings are completely gone, though. Time to refocus on DB, working on me for me, and working on my relationship with the kids.

The grind, it keeps on grinding.

[AnotherStander]

Also, at DC I got the equivalent of IDLY. She said what was the other option to divorce? Stay married when she doesn't have those feelings for me anymore? She didn't say IDLY, but the effect was the same. A gut punch for sure. I had, in my head, been believing she still loved me, but just didn't think I could change, and all my 180s would save the day. Those feelings are completely gone, though.

^^^This is all script. It is totally normal. The only difference is your perception. You're still clinging to the hope that this is all temporary and if you just say or do the right thing then all will go right back to normal. But that is not how this works. She is DONE, make no mistake about it. You have got to leave her alone and work on YOU. You've got to give her LOTS of time and space to sort things out on her own. When she does she may very well change her mind about the M, but that is months down the road, maybe even a year or more. You are still doing things to try and save the M instead of saving yourself. Work on you first, then maybe the M will follow.

You mentioned earlier that a 180 is sharing your feelings with her. SHE DOESN'T CARE about your feelings right now. That is not a 180 she wants. If SHE shares feelings with you, that's great, you listen and validate. THAT would be a good 180. But don't share your feelings with her, she's likely to think "here he goes, he just thinks everything is all about him."

[Subitai]

You mentioned earlier that a 180 is sharing your feelings with her. SHE DOESN'T CARE about your feelings right now. That is not a 180 she wants. If SHE shares feelings with you, that's great, you listen and validate. THAT would be a good 180. But don't share your feelings with her, she's likely to think "here he goes, he just thinks everything is all about him."

This. I need to be so much better at this.

[Verum]

You're still clinging to the hope that this is all temporary and if you just say or do the right thing then all will go right back to normal. But that is not how this works. She is DONE, make no mistake about it. You have got to leave her alone and work on YOU. You've got to give her LOTS of time and space to sort things out on her own. When she does she may very well change her mind about the M, but that is months down the road, maybe even a year or more. You are still doing things to try and save the M instead of saving yourself. Work on you first, then maybe the M will follow.

This is a great reminder for many of us. We all come to the forum to save our M, but we should really be focusing on what we can control, which is ourselves.

[TBSakaJ9]

Originally Posted By: Subitai

Also, at DC I got the equivalent of IDLY. She said what was the other option to divorce? Stay married when she doesn't have those feelings for me anymore? She didn't say IDLY, but the effect was the same. A gut punch for sure. I had, in my head, been believing she still loved me, but just didn't think I could change, and all my 180s would save the day. Those feelings are completely gone, though.

It has been 7.5 months for me and my W is still done, done and more done.

I can tell you from experience at some point in time, once you are more healed you will begin to wonder if this is all worth it and if you really want her back. Once you get a chance to step back and take inventory of all the damage she has done.

Early on everyone is wrapped up into every conversation and interaction you have but over time you really won't care as much and you will become more comfortable with how you conduct yourself and with DBing in general.

[Subitai]

So, we went to a show together, which we had planned before the BD. It actually went quite well. I held off talking about R stuff, and made general chit-chat, talked a bit about kids/etc, in a very calm and non-confrontational way. It was pretty good. The show was fantastic. We talked about it the whole way down. Then she brought up MC, things she said there, things she felt she was proud of articulating. I affirmed and listened, I actively agreed with a lot of what she said (And I DID agree with a lot of what she said). I thanked her, too, because I felt I had a better handle on our sitch afterwards, and answered the questions she had for me. After we got the sitter squared away, I told her I would get out of her hair, she said "You're not bothering me." I said goodbye anyway and left. I felt more comfortable in the conversations.

Much better. I'll see her again on Saturday.

[Vanilla]

Your W does not appear to be a wayward. A great deal of the comments put to you refer to a wayward.

If your W is a WAW then she is not wayward. It is a great mistake to treat her as if she is.

If a 180 is to share your feelings (no R talk) on various things then do so.

There is always too eager a tendency to treat all W as wayward here. There is a huge difference.

If you treat a walkaway as if she were wayward, when she is behaving with dignity and respect, she will runaway not just walk.

A walkaway knows what she is doing and is likely doing so in sorrow than anger. She wants to see shift.

It's also nonsense that a walkaway doesn't care about her children or pets or even her ex.

Can I please repeat again, a wayward is not a walkaway. The two are very different.

V

[Subitai]

I don't think she's a wayward, either. She is very caring for the kids, the pets, and she even cares about me. If she thinks I'm upset, she asks about it. We went into details and she said one of the drivers of the D is how mad SHE is, and her feelings about the actions that SHE took. She doesn't want to be the person she was towards me, it's not just the person I was towards her.

I may not be able to salvage this marriage, but I think I can salvage a very workable co-parenting and respectful relationship at the very least. Who knows where things will lead.

Thank goodness I got into IC to deal with the trauma, anger, and high-conflict childhood I had. They don't excuse my actions, but they are the genesis of the feelings I reacted to so poorly. And it was god awful hard to do that.

Anyway, I still need to detach and give space, and be as friendly as I can, and work on being the person I should (and could) have been this whole time.

V, I always appreciate your optimism and your advice. The apology letter was super helpful to me. Fastcars, you are an inspiration to stand strong and long, even in the face of major setback. Joeseph9, I am glad to hear your advice from further in the process, letting me know it gets easier. AnotherStander, I always appreciate you helping me see the ground I need to plant my feet on. Clyde, you give me hope and caution all at once. I'm rooting for you! Nicole and Sandi bring a great perspective and insight into what my W may be thinking. Thank you guys for that. Petri, dude, I'm following your story so closely. I feel a kind of kinship with you and your progress.

Building a better tomorrow, one painful step at a time, and each step is a little less painful.

[Vanilla]

So my sense is that friendship is a great start.

I am not saying friend zone. Your W was very attracted to you, she cares about you and her family, that's huge.

You are making shift, dealing with your stuff is first then becoming a man only a fool would leave.

I think you are doing great.

V

[TBSakaJ9]

S.....I agree with V I think you are doing great. When I started my sitch I viewed it as starting over from scratch which means starting with a friendship (not friend zone) and taking it from there.

As V said continue working on yourself, becoming a man only a fool would leave and the rest is out of your control. When you look in the mirror do you like what you see?

[Subitai]

I will keep on working on restoring/keeping our friendship and back off on the M/R talks while continuing to work on me. Today, IC and Yoga. And I get to see my kids for a bit tomorrow before I try a 50ish mile bike ride.

[Subitai]

Friday she asked me if I wanted to run an errand with her and the kids and her dad (the last part of a Xmas present he was getting them), so I picked the kids up (which made work easier for her) and went to the store with them. I bailed out early as I had plans with friends to see a show. Saturday, I came over to take care of them while she had an appointment. I had asked if I could bring my bike and go for a ride (and then leave it there since I would be moving back in the next day) and she said sure. When I got back, she said she had ordered pizza and I was welcome to stay. I had a slice, then headed back over to the apartment.

Sunday, I came over early as she had a bunch of errands to run, hung out with the kids, and when she came back she asked if I wanted to stay with our D or take our S to a b-day party. I stayed with my D (who is sick) and then suggested we order dinner for them to pick up on the way home, and we all had dinner again that night.

Today is my first day 'back in the home' and her first day away.

I left a potted flower, some sardines and crackers, and one of her favorite terrible deserts for her at the apartment to find on Sunday. I know, brownie points are dumb.... but I'm trying to be thoughtful and friendly, and the place really needs some cheering up, so the flower seemed like a good choice. (And less pursuity than cut flowers.)

No contact/messages about that. I will back off now after that to giver her space in the apartment. Before she left, I had mentioned if she was missing the kids we could do a mid-week dinner as I really enjoyed seeing the kids on last Wednesday, even if for a little while.

Coming back into the kids after many days off was a bit of a shock. I found my self getting annoyed at them quite easily, but not getting 'mad' at them, if that makes sense to people who know about anger issues. I'm settling down into it, though. The kids are acting fairly normal, which either means we're doing a pretty good job with the divorce so far, or that this is the calm before the storm. Hopefully they will ease into the adjustments.

That's the sitch right now.

[Subitai]

Oh, I forgot to mention some playful flirty stuff. She smacked me on the butt with a paper towel roll and laughed. While I was changing a light, I dropped a piece and asked her to help, so she picked up the piece and handed it to me, then stepped up on the ladder next to me and helped hold the fixture while I put the screws on. I joked that I would change all the lights if it meant she was going to press her breasts against me. She proceeded to rub them against me laughing, and then walked off. There were a few other verbal incidents, but those two really took me by surprise.

[Subitai]

Okay, this is weird. I miss her more at the house with the kids than I did at the apartment. I guess her being 'gone' hits harder here at the marital home. Right in the gut.

[winner]

Ugh I feel for you. The loneliness and the quiet is very difficult to navigate. What are you doing to keep yourself busy?

[Subitai]

At the marital home? Kids, and house maintenance.

At the apartment? The gym. A lot. I went 6 times in 1 week. And bicycling.

Currently I'm at my desk crying a little as we just got an email from my son's 1st grade teacher. He has been angry all week and today made a little girl cry by calling her names, then lied to the teacher about it. The teacher is aware of the D, so she seems to think being angry isn't unusual, but now I get to try and talk to him about this. He wasn't like this last week when he was home with his mom.

[NicoleR]

Subitai, that's so sad to hear your son has been affected. It makes me so angry at our spouses for doing this to us and our kids. I believe your son misses his mom and is probably also so confused. I hope you can spend quality time with him tonight and help him to feel more secure.

[Subitai]

I think tonight will have to be game night.

[Subitai]

Subitai, that's so sad to hear your son has been affected. It makes me so angry at our spouses for doing this to us and our kids. I believe your son misses his mom and is probably also so confused. I hope you can spend quality time with him tonight and help him to feel more secure.

And to be fair, I'm not sure this is her fault. My single parenting needs a fair amount of work, as well. This was is first go when it wasn't a business trip related thing, and the difference for me is staggering.

[Subitai]

Hey guys, just checking in. Things are not progressing. No move to file, still separated. Wife still seems unhappy and gets angry at me easily if I don't answer questions directly. (I have a tendency to try and read meaning behind questions and give qualified answers). Kids still sad. I'm still in love with my wife. She hasn't told me ILY in weeks now, (Since the "I don't feel that way about you anymore" M conversation at the MC 2.5 weeks ago) and she used to say it every couple of days.

It feels like the foundations are crumbling.

However, we've got a new communication tool we're using to document kid related stuff. I took care of the S when he was sick one day for her, and she's been thanking me for all the things that I have done to make things easier. I feel like I should be paying attention to anything she does for me and thank her for them, and I have been.

She doesn't like to look at me, or talk to me when we're face to face right now. All playful flirtiness I discussed previously has dried up for now. More anger and sadness instead.

I am focusing on my IC, which is still going well, even if it's in baby-step beginning stuff. Kid stuff is better, but not perfect.

Valentine's day is on my week, thinking about asking her if she wants to do anything with the kids. She has invited me to several things with the kids, but has turned down reciprocal invitations last week.

I do not have anything for her for V-Day. Thinking of getting a card and only giving it to her if she gives me one.

Things are rough for her right now outside of our R, which may be impacting her and why she has been colder and more standoffish.

I'm still hitting the gym, hanging out with friends, reading more, etc. I'm actually pretty comfy in the studio we found. W hates it, though. She actually crashed at a friend's house (married couple) for several days on her week there.

I've noticed I'm having a hard time staying asleep. I go to sleep, and 3-4 hours later, I wake up with the M on my mind. I then tend to wake up every hour for the rest of the night, with vivid dreams that veer back into the M.

Anyway, that's my update.

[Subitai]

We had a really good weekend. Civil, W very appreciative of me taking the kids on Sat when she was supposed to have them because she had a work event. She made me laugh so hard I accidentally said "ILY" to her because all this stuff between us kinda fell away in my head, and she said "ILY, even though you're a dork. Or maybe because of it." to me. She has expressed interest on coming over for dinner with the kids on Wednesday, but hasn't confirmed yet.

Sorry I haven't been more chatty on here. I'm burying myself in work as it is busy, and I needed a break from living the horrors of everyone's divorces as well as my own so I can focus on some of the stuff my IC has me working on. Reading the D stories and reading back through mine works me up and unbalances me right now, for sure. I will be back and commenting more when I have head space to spare.

[Vanilla]

So you are doing great.

V

[NicoleR]

Subitai, I'm so happy to hear your latest update! Maybe, slowly, this can happen more.

[Subitai]

Thanks Vanilla and NicoleR! I am doing my best to not get overly excited. I still assume we are heading for divorce as my W is the type that makes up her mind and sticks with it. However, prolonged improvements might let her reconsider. Time will tell. I've skimmed through Petri and hoosjim and a few others, including blu. Glad to see positive progress, and also growth even without R progress. I will check back in if there are developments, and I will get back into commenting as soon as I have head space. Probably another week or two before work eases again.

[Subitai]

Rough bunch of days, but we just had MC/DC, and afterwards she came and leaned on me for a hug. It lasted for over a minute. A very good hug. She's getting madder and sadder. Some from external stuff, some from me backsliding on some behaviors (turn it around, Sub!) and some because she feels like I'm present in a way I wasn't, before, and she's mad that I didn't do that when the stakes were different.

[Subitai]

Oh, Valentine's day. She just dropped by to say hi and give out cards, didn't stay and have dinner with the kids.

[Subitai]

I went over to take the kids to school today so she could leave early to get to a work event early for set up, and she was leaving and came back in and said "Wait! I forgot to kiss your face! The face of my girl child!" And I teasingly said "Awww!" and she said "I'll kiss yours, too!" and kissed me on the cheek. DO NOT READ INTO THIS! Gotta stay on target, keep detaching, and keep being friendly and 180ing etc.

[reframe]

You're doing fantastic.
I struggle a ton with my mood ping-ponging between extremes depending on how the latest interaction went. Look for the signs of progress but don't get attached to them
(now if only I could take my own advice)

[Subitai]

Little progress forward with regards to the W, but still making progress on my own as far as IC goes.

I am feeling like somebody who is at month 6 of getting his motorcycle license. I kinda feel like I know what I'm doing, but that makes me relax and more likely to have a careless accident, both with DBing and with my IC. I used to be angry fairly constantly. Now I'm not, and all of my work getting to that point now with being constantly monitoring my brain/mood/etc feels different, I feel relaxed, but I have noticed that I am back to getting into a state where I can get angry and frustrated with multiple inputs that bug me.

For instance, this morning my D didn't want to get dressed, my S didn't want to eat the same breakfast he always demands because I didn't ask him first, I was trying to get the dogs out the door and walked before the rain hit, and I got frustrated and told them no TV and started escalating my mood. I quickly shut that down, got their breakfasts on the table, and got the dogs out the door so I could calm down and de-escalate. But I shouldn't have gotten to that point in the first place, but I have gotten 'lax' in my monitoring because everything has been pretty good for me.

Last night, the W facetimed the kids, who I usually have in bed. I was on the computer trying to get something done that she asked me to do, when suddenly the kids come running out of their rooms asking me to show them something that Mommy wanted them to see on my computer. I was on the phone AND on a website trying to get stuff to work and I had to drop it all to refocus on this, and she was talking on FT, the kids were both talking over her and eachother, and I got frustrated and said "Everybody just shut up for a minute!" in a exasperated (but not my full angry) voice. I knew this was the wrong thing to say, but in the moment, I locked down the mounting anger, got the video playing that she wanted the kids to see, and ignored the W's question of "Why are we yelling shut up at people?" instead of engaging and got the kids through the video and back to bed where they finished FT with the W. I calmed down during the video with my relaxing techniques and was fine.

These two incidents feel more like the 'old' me rather than the 'new' me I am aiming to become. I know I will always have a quick temper, but not letting it get the best of me is important to me.

Thinking about Recon, I am getting less desperate for it. Before I would have jumped at her moving back, or stopping the process. Now, I don't think it would work. I like who I am becoming, and it is harder to be that person around her. Furthermore, I always assumed things were better than she did because she deeply compartmentalizes things. How could I ever trust that things are 'good' with her? How could I ever risk putting the kids through separation and divorce AGAIN after seeing what it's doing to them right now? Especially after giving them some false hope in reconciling?

This is, of course, far from even an option right now, but these are the concerns I would have.

Work friend A has commented on me being calmer and slower to get worked up in our conversations.

Work friend B said she feels like I am 'more grown up' or adult in my interactions at work and in our personal interactions. (Our families hang out every few weeks.)

I feel like I am making progress, and at the point where I need to double down and start driving these changes into the bedrock of my personality and not just go "whoa, everything is so much better! I can relax now" and slowly lose them.

This board has been such a great help in keeping me focused on myself and my IC, and keeping me from spinning out into obsessions over W and our R.

[Vanilla]

Sounds like an ordinary day for a terrific dad.

You are doing great.

Kids always come first and I admire a dad who achieves that.

Don't underestimate how important that is.

Hugs

V

[Subitai]

Looong time since I posted. I got laid off shortly after my last post, and I refocused on getting a new job, getting things back together for myself, and my IC. So I stopped coming here as I used to do that at work on breaks. Things that have come out in the mean time :

She is dating, and has been since shortly after the BD.

I am not dating. But it isn’t an alien thought like it used to be.

I am doing great with my IC (still at it) and have entire weeks where I don’t lose my temper.

We are filed, and working out the last details.

I am not interested in RC. Not unless she goes to therapy and does some work, but given the first bullet point, I doubt she will, or will ever want to RC. She checked out and lined up a new partner before the BD.

Kids are doing better.

Still birdnesting, but not for much longer. And I think she’s going to try and insist that I not get to buy her out of her side of the house because... the kids keeping their house is less important than winning? I don’t know what her deal is with this. Keeping the house for the kids was hugely important until I said we could do that, but we had to buy someone out and divest financially.

Thanks to everyone that kept me sane all those months ago!

[ovrrnbw]

Was she "dating" before BD? You say she lined up another partner before BD. Sounds like a WW. Monkey branching is cheating. Are you treating her as such? What are you interactions like?

Does birdnesting mean she is still at home?

No D papers filed?

[Subitai]

EAP is a coworker she was hanging out with for months before BD. Certainly an EA she started when she decided to head towards BD.

Birdnesting means we take turns at the house with the kids.

Interactions are politely distant for the most part. She is fone as long as things are going her way, and super mad when she is not. I still have anger flare ups when she treats me like her servant to pick up whatever slack with the kids.

As I said, not into RC right now.

[ovrrnbw]

Don't get angry about picking up the slack with the kids. You may be totally on your own with them one day, and you'd have to find a way to care for them? Would you be angry then? If not, then you're just letting your wife have emotional control over you....

Why are you "birdnesting" with a cheater? Why not stay at your house? If she wants out, she can get out and she knows that. Don't give in to her madness, validate her feelings, don't tolerate bad behavior. You don't have to engage and fight, but you should let anyone treat you poorly.

What is "RC"?

[Subitai]

RC is reconciling.

We're moving towards ending the birdnesting. It has been good for the kids to adjust to the transition. It's going to be hard on them when they have to start bouncing back and forth between places. And right now, neither of us has a place big enough for the kids.

I'm actually doing okay now. I've adjusted, accepted, and doing my best to keep detaching.

[AnotherStander]

Hey Sub, good to hear from you! Glad you are doing well!

Why are you "birdnesting" with a cheater? Why not stay at your house?

This was discussed pretty extensively earlier in his thread. They were doing it for the kids and financial reasons. It's not for everyone but it's not necessarily a bad thing.

[Subitai]

Yes, the birdnesting has been for the kids. It has been a good way to ease them into the divorce. I hobestly don’t mind it that much, but I need to be fully financially separated from my ex, and she won’t continue it without us owning the house together.

And thanks, Stander! I am hoping to catch back up with people’s stories. Going back and rereading some of these posts of mine... its like an alien mindset! Things are so different now. I wish I had kept up with the site, but I had just too much on my plate once I got laid off. And honestly, obsessing about the job hunt and getting back on my feet was good for me. Helped pull me out of obsessing about “winning her back”.

[Subitai]

Quick update : new house rented for me, she will be buying me out shortly, kids are adjusting to two places fairly well, and I have not been as content as I an right now in a long time.

[LH19]

Yes sir! 95% of the worry and $hit that went through your head doesn't happen does it.

Good for you dude!

[AnotherStander]

Great, love your recent posts Sub! Nicely done!

[Subitai]

To be honest, I have not been great at trying to DB. Especially after the moving out. The relief of not living in the same house as her (even if neither of us was there at the same time) is immense. The lack of pressure. Dealing with the kids is easier. Dealing with everyday life is easier. Even dealing with her is easier. I still get hot under the collar when she comes at me, but I have been able to walk away. Multiple times she has chased after me swearing at me (in front of the children, even) but I have avoided responding in kind. She dropped the f bomb at me, then 'apologized' to the kids by saying "I'm sorry you heard me swear, but some times people deserve it." Unfortunately I could not resist replying with "Yes, but you notice I still didn't" before closing the door in her face. It felt good, but was unproductive. Her apology to me about it later was "now you know how I felt living with your anger all these years."

She has not shown any personal growth, but has definitely shown more and more anger as the process proceeds along. She decided she wanted to buy me out of the house, and complained when I got a separate house, then demanded a hard 'move out date' without the sale having been completed (still not completed) and got very angry whenever I said "Well, you haven't paid me yet, so I don't think you should be so adamant about this." To be fair, I moved out the last week of December so the whole year would be a clean start. I got everything out of the house proper, and almost everything out of the garage (a few things overlooked and a few thinks I thought she was okay with me leaving there until a big 'dump run' could be organized) before the end of January. We have a shed that also needed emptying, but we had agreed verbally it could wait. She came at me the first week of Feb about having failed to 'move out' by then. That was the most recent swear fest.

And also to be fair, she asked much more nicely this week, asking if I could do her a favor and schedule some moving time to work on the shed. I've done a couple of trips, and there is very little left, most of it in boxes that are mixed together stuff of both of ours. I responded favorably to the polite request, and did a load. The whole 'not reacting' and 'not taking [censored]' thing is hard to balance, but very key. I wish I was better at it. It's been interesting really internalizing what her 'weapons' are. Aggressive talk. Silences. Not agreeing to things, but appearing to through moving on to other topics without explicit agreements. Mean spirited 'jokes' she aims at me (and the follow up "don't be a baby, it was a joke" attitude.) So many landmines to navigate. I'm sure she feels the same way about me, though. And the 'experts' we have working for us. Oy.

Every 'expert' she wanted to see she wielded as a weapon. If I didn't agree to something, she insisted on emailing the therapist/mediator/kid psych/etc to get an opinion. I haven't been to marriage (divorce) therapy with her since early November. Our therapist reached out and asked us how we are doing and if we wanted a 'follow up' or 'final' session. W said sure, and I agreed. We'll see how that goes next week. I plan on being quiet and listening, mainly, and validating without groveling or admitting guilt.

I am at the point where I realize the less of her in my life, the happier I am. And not because she's a bad person. But because the R is still so bad for her, and it shows. I will do my best to keep it smooth without slipping back into being her simpering lackey who explodes in anger when it gets to be too much.

For any of you who remember my earlier posts about my D and myself... it's way better. Way, way, way better. Most of that is the work I have done on myself. But a good portion of it is also not having to worry about my W's reaction to my D, and vice versa. Harmony is easier to achieve. Her emotional blow ups with me are significantly less than with the W. I feel competent and engaged. I am pleased with how things are going. I may even try dating some time soonish. (She's still with the OM, who is not confirmed as being physically an OM before BD, but is almost certainly was emotionally the OM before BD. She started dating him probably days after BD.)

The only downsides right now are finances. Harder to maintain two separate family houses, that's for sure. But other than that, all sunshine and daisies!