These boards have been such a comfort for me these past few years. Recently it has been hard for me to write though.
I still think about my ex and these past few years a lot. I was reading this diary I had written when my son was really really young. I read statements about how lonely I was and how I often felt like a single mom. How resentful I was of my ex sleeping late. My fears and ignorance about our financial situation. I seemed to target my anger at my ex MIL though. I blamed my ex not being around on her. She was the person I was competing with for his attention.
I am talking to a therapist and trying to figure out our relationship. We talked about how he did not meet my needs. How he had broken up with me early on for a few days because he felt like I was demanding too much of his time (we only saw each other one overnight a week back then because I was still in school)How I would joke to people that if me and my ex did not start our relationship while I was in school, we never would have been married because I would have been too demanding of his time. Instead I was too busy to bother him too much. I thought I was wrong about that. And i am still scared of being demanding for time and help and attention from a guy. My therapist has pointed out that my ex was not just distant from me but also our son.
We talked about how little effort I made for the relationship after my son was born. I remember being so anxious about leaving my son, I did not even go out for his birthday because he chose a restaurant that was far away. And how i stayed home with my son instead of joining him and my brother for a concert. I was so worried about being a bad mother for taking time out for me and for us. That was not good for me or for our son.
Regarding my ex, I still have huge emotional swings and I need help with this. A while ago I was panicking because my son said to me something about how his father would not be his father anymore if he were to kill me. I started to get seriously scared that he would kill me to avoid child support. He is not a violent person. Certainly not jealous or passionate about me. But hates having to pay child support. Sometimes he acts nice and then other times his anger and hatred slip out. It was weird that my son said this. But a thought I have kept secret as well. I also have anxiety.
Other times my emotions swing to extreme anger and depression and hopelessness. I feel like me and my son were robbed of a family unit. A male/father figure. Which is something I desperately want. I wanted another child too. My ex knew that from the time we were in our early 20s. So I feel great loss. Like something was stolen from me. My youth, my time, giving more life. Financial stability.
Once in a while I feel bad for him. I wonder if there were child hood secrets that led to a drug addiction. I wonder what happened in his life. All the secrets in his family are disturbing.
And then there is the trauma from the way he treated me. The worst part was him blaming me for everything. Being treated poorly and having no control because I did not understand what was going on. Being resented so much. Although I resented him too. Thinking about those past years still hurts a lot.
I have been dating someone for a few months now and I have fears about my own ability to judge good from bad. I no longer trust my judgement.
Last year I dated someone that looking back had tons of red flags. I knew it back then, but I accepted a lot to prove that I was not the nagging, demanding wife my ex made me out to be. This years self looks back and realizes I should never have dated him. He would often ask me to drive, was constantly looking at who was paying, and did not give me a christmas gift because he had procrastination issues. He always liked to talk to me and spend time with me and gave me a card saying he loved me though. I certainly did not love him and was very relieved when things ended.
I do not know if that will be the same with the person I am with now. Will I look back repulsed and say "what the hell were you thinking?" This guy is more old fashioned and traditional. Flowers, dinners. Never wants me to drive. He does not drink or do drugs. He says he wants a LTR. Not afraid of commitment. He said once committed to the relationship it would take something drastic for him to end it. That he works hard at everything and fixes problems. He Wants a LTR with someone to do things with and for. Texts me everyday more then once a day. He had full custody of his daughter with similar experiences to some of the LBS on here. Everything I would have summoned in someone.
But I worry, I am not seeing something. My ex kept telling the marriage counselor he fixes problems.
Thanks for reading. I know this was long.
Last edited by job; 12/20/1702:25 AM. Reason: added link to previous thread
So i am going to be 40 soon and i am feeling so much regret about my life.
Settling with my ex was such a big mistake and i regret it tremendously. (With the exception of my son) If i married a better man, i could have had more kids and a home and a partner.
He wasted my time and my youth and i feel really bad. I was so stupid about relationships. I am educated and i think i was considered very attractive to guys. I just did not know how to negotiate for myself. I should have been smarter.
We waited so long to marry and have our son. I bet the reasons i miscarried was because he had defective druggie and alcohlic sperm. He coud not perform and i dealt with that for years. I wanted another child so badly and now its too late and im really sad.
He to this day makes iy out like he was the one that had everything to lose. He told me acute bomb drop "nothing changes for you" and recently "i'm an idiot for ever getting involved with you" He was the one that screwed us over financially. I was always a big saver. I was loyal. I worked. And i am a great mom. I still really hate him. And im mad for having been the one to stay with him. I should have left, because other women would have before it was too late.
I know it can be worse. I know the world is a cruel place and that women in other countries are exposed to rape and murder i know people lose their childten. I know that a spouse can die. That there are no guarantees.
I almost deleted what i wrote because i realize it makes me sound spoiled and ungrateful for what i have been given. But these are some dark thoughts i am having and wanted to document.
I can almost write everything you wrote in your two posts. I mean everything, verbatim. I understand exactly where you are coming from. And it's where most of my anger comes from. Also in regards to dating, I don't even trust myself anymore. I don't know that I trust others. And I did have a trust for others, but it has been worn paper thin. It's not even to cheat, it's just trust that someone won't stomp all over my heart.
Then I keep thinking about what the alternative is. I can continue to not trust myself and others and just hole up. I decided I am just going to be myself and go with the flow. And if someone doesn't like who I am , oh well.
I did used to think if I just didn't do this, or if I just didn't do that, then ex would have stayed and loved me. Then I realize some days I won't be my best me, I might be needy, or b!tchy or lazy, but I still should be loved on those days.
Please, try to enjoy your new R. He seems to have some outstanding values and morals, just as you do. Try your best to not wait for red flags. Enjoy yourself, because you most certainly deserve it.
Thanks ginger. I really appreciate that someone not only understands, but has similar feelings and regrets. And also understands that just because i feel like that one moment, does not mean it is something i frequently feel.
I am enjoying my relationship with this new guy. I started to get swept up a little, but today realized I need to back down and keep myself in check a little bit. I like him a lot. But it is still new and I know time is the true test. I dont know the lines between being clingy and being unavailable. There are times my insecurities come out and i know that is not attractive or healthy. There are times I talk about my ex and I know that is not good to do too much either.
Something that pops up is that I feel guilt over my ex. I wonder if I had accepted him like I accept the guy now, would we have had a better relationship. When I met my ex I was young, and perhaps more arrogant,and opinionated certainly less appreciative. I definitely took things for granted with my ex. This was a hard lesson to learn.
Most of all, i do not know what was reactive to weird behaviors that my ex did have and what was awful behavior on my part. Most likely a mix of both. But hard to accept that I was not perfect. Its hard to accept that I was a bad enough wife to leave. Was I actually a bad enough wife to leave or was it just a man that had secrets and addictions? I dont have answers only past experiences to learn from. But the consequence was so hard and I feel bad at failing at marriage.
Anyone see the children's movie Coco? I loved it! I admittedly cried through it. Because it was about the importance of family. One of the characters abandons his family for his own passion and no one can forgive him. Anyone see the similarities? Sure the wife he left was a bit domineering, but she also had great characteristics and grows throughout the film. I loved that the flaws of the characters never mattered, only the triumph of family.
I came from that working class family that grew up in one of the Boroughs where everyone lives super close, if not in the same mother daughter household. No one has ever been divorced. Now this type of dynamic is outdated. Sadly, we do not live in a culture in which a strong family unit is valued. And I think that is the problem.
So my marriage is gone and I am moving on. I still think about my ex every day. (That could be part of my rumination disorder though) I feel sad that it came to this. But it was out of my control. It really was. If my ex had told me about his financial issues or about whatever addictions he had, I would have been the type of person to stay, research obsessively and seek appropriate help. I would not have enabled or let it go or denied once discovered though. To me he was family. HE did not feel that way about me or our son though.
The level of secrecy was and is so unfair and disrespectful though. To not know, to never have been given that, even to this day shows how little value I was to him. I was never considered an actual human being to him. With feelings that mattered. If I left him I would have not wanted to hurt him on top of it, knowing that I was the leaver.
I feel like I am permanently traumatized. I will never be the same. In some ways that is good i guess. But I am not sure how to navigate a future relationship. I took to heart being villified by my ex. There is some truth to the things he said, but a lot was unfair and I do not believe a real reason to walk out on a partner of 15 years. But now I am cautious of my needs in a relationship.
The man I am currently dating offers to do things to help me. And I do not want to take him up on it, because I don't want to inconvenience him and have him later resent me or be perceived as needy.
I do not think I am super comfortable in my own skin anymore. I worry that men will like me for the things that look good on paper and then not like the true me. Or ignore things early on because of the superficial attraction. I am only getting older.
But my real fear is that there is no such thing as true loyalty and family this late in the game.
That was also ex's love language and he ended up resenting me.
My LL is time spent. And i felt secretly bad that this guy didnt want to spend all his time with me this past week and weekend like he did earlier.
This admittedly makes no sense because i was the one that was busy the prior week. And i do have lots of stuff to do myself. And everything else has been great. And he shows that he likes me. We get along. He bought tickets for us to do sonething months ahead. And we spend reasonable time together considering we are early in our relationship. It seems that weekends i am available are just assumed that we will hang out. And we make time for during the week to get together.
I do feel like i initiate more though. But he once said he can make any times so i just have to let him know when i am free because i am the one with the hectic schedule. But this is making me a bit insecure because he seems to be someone that wants to please so i dont know if im being annoying. Or perhaps he put it in my plate to avoid rejection? (Something he seems to want to avoid)
The dynamic my ex and i had was me demanding that he spend time with me and son. And i am worried about going back there. Amd feel deprived in that way.
I am sensing that i need to back down and stay busy and not rush things or be pushy. But for me to be like that also means i have to withdraw ny interest.
Ng and exH are alike in some ways. They are both independent fix it, mechanical types. They both have blue collar backgrounds and are both very intelligent. They are both honest, blunt, confident in day to day life. They both like to do favors for others especially when it comes to the mechanical stuff (although this stopped with my ex later on) The typical "man's man". And will take over in all the things I hate, like driving and directions (I dated a hippie type millenial guy last year and never again. The role reversal was very unappealing to me. I am more traditional and feminine) They both have similar flaws. I think a verbal apology/validation would be a struggle for both of them. Instead they both seem to try to make things right through actions. Neither seem to be able to communicate their needs from a partner. That might be a problem. Both are soda drinkers and eat fast food but I realize I have to overlook those type of health choices. (these types of flaws from my ex frustrated me, but they were never things I would have ended a relationship over. I would look past these types of things in choosing someone because I think other characteristics are more relevant )
I think NG has a lot of relationship experience and likes being in a relationship. He is more of a homebody then my ex. I think he believes in commitment. He said he never left anyone and believes in working hard to fix problems, once committed. He does not like to drink and drugs are not an issue with him. I am not sure if there are any red flags yet other then not being able to communicate his needs or feeling like he has no needs. He is the type that would greatly inconvenience himself for his loved ones.
I think maybe with my ex it was the drugs that were the bulk of the problem. He could not provide for his family. Money was the ultimate issue. And I think he knew I was about to start asking big questions about money. Thats when he left. He did not want to explain to me all this debt. Instead he blamed his leaving on me. He villified me so he would not have to face what he was doing. I think that's a big part of what happened anyway. I could be wrong. I could be projecting. And he resented us for using up his resources. I don't see him as this flashy womanizer looking for new relationships.
I think it was the drugs that affected our sex life. I have been reading these drug forums and while I cannot go into the details here that they do on this forum, the sexual dysfunctions that they describe from opiate use are exactly what my ex was experiencing for years. I thought it was stress or unhealthy eating. I never would have guessed or known it was from drugs at the time. I never understood why other husbands were all over their wives for sex, and mine just was not. I kind of gave up too though and it wasnt enjoyable because of the things I mentioned above. I felt like he was detached from me and it became more about whether or not he would be able to perform for the sake of performance.
Im sorry I am off on a tangent. I am analyzing a failed relationship and why it failed. And whether a new one with people with similar flaws will work. And figuring out if it was the human flaws or addiction that ruined the one with my ex.
Withdrawing my interest, detaching would make my feelings hurt less. SOmething my ex did?
At one point, I think my ex was the type to inconvenience himself for others as well. I remember him feeling pulled from so many directions (me, his job, his mother) and struggling to get it all done. He ended up turning on me. I am not sure if I was demanding too much, or if he was unable to give what is typical in a relationship because of his demons.
I know this might sound overly simplified, and take this with a grain of salt from a woman who can't hold a relationship, but the overanalyzing is going to hold you back from enjoying anything.
Stop fearing you are going to do something "wrong". To the right person, they will stick through the learning curves, will not want or expect you to be perfect, and he will want to work with you because he wants to be with you.
Please be good to yourself. Enjoy yourself. Because anyone who doesn't love you for exactly who you are, imperfections and all, doesn't deserve you.
Ex and I are on friendlier terms. He sees son every other weekend and 1 night a week. He doesnt have overnights without supervision. Im no longer sure if that was reasonable of ne to insist on. I dont know him and never will.
I still think about him every day. Sometines i am so so mad at how he treated me pre and during BD. I cant believe his cruelty. And then other times i am ashamed of how i was throughout our relationship. I never had any real answers. And i think that made it harder for me to heal.
I am dating soneone that has great morals, walked the walk so to speak. But he is not perfect and i accept that. I feel bad that i was not as accepting of my ex's imperfections. And if i had been how differently would our lives have been. Could that have changed secret substance abuse? I dont know. Was i a catalyst to said substance abuse? Living with me drive him to it?
My ex once liked me just as much as the new guy. So in 15 years, will new guy resent me too? Something i am conscious of. Will i resent him?
The winter is not a good time for me. And i feel unbalanced and unmotivated and defeated.
A long time for me since posting on here, but I still read and it feels right to say hello and support you in your winter feelings of woe. As all things DBing, these feelings too shall pass JujuB.
I feel your same insecurities in my new relationship. There is so much about me which is new with my new person, I like knowing it, I like feeling it. But I know I am only a brief moment away at any one time, from not being better and not being different from the person I was with my ex.
Every now and then I glimpse the me who was with my ex. I see things start to unravel now, I watch them in slow motion sometimes and I know what is happening and yet still I proceed down Alice's Rabbit hole. I see myself become the banshee and the tantrum thrower, the child aching to be seen, to be heard.
I realise these are soulful needs or maybe rather more wounds and my broken bits lead to Banshee Jelly or Sad Jelly, and I have begun to accept that these will likely never leave and I have found a person who sees Banshee Jelly and Sad Jelly and loves me more in those moments. And I know he loves me more in those moments, because he stays, he never leaves me alone. We're an us in those moments.
I guess what I am saying is you forget JujuB that your ex didn't accept you either, your ex didn't accept Banshee JujuB, sexy loving JujuB, anxious mother of his child JujuB, committed wife JujuB, and he didn't stay and stand. He is as human as you were in the relationship. I am in with my current person.
Forgive yourself JujuB, it makes all the difference with the new person. These are just my thoughts.
Really I just wanted to say I love you and you are awesome. Lets meet up some time soon.
Thank you for your response Jelly. I love you and I love hearing from you. And I cant wait to meet up again.
It might be that it is too early for the old me to come out.
But really, I feel like the process left me cold and empty. Like i have become my ex. Like I am DBing the new guy. Like I am keeping myself detached if that makes any sense. I can no longer communicate any needs at all (much like my ex)and am unsure what they even are. I think I feel so rejected, that I feel that being with me is a form of punishment. And its hard to accept that a guy wants to spend time with me.
To be honest, I wonder if it is my detachment that attracts guys.
I am thinking it out too much. I know that. But I feel very damaged by my relationship with my ex. How it was even before he left. The misogyny of ex's thinking. That underlying belief of me as the nagging wife that kept him from his happiness. And how it was part of his plight in life to appease the wife. Ugh, do you know how many times he joked about the "power of the triangle". A lot of times I believe that I was that nagging wife. But not really. That is not my personality. I am pretty confident that I am not a codependent personality by any stretch.
But I wasnt really a partner or even a friend to him. And i have to remember that. And its hard for me to trust that there are guys that want that. I am still not sure what to make of new guy.
I have not talked about this but to a few trusted people. The first year of my relationship with my new lovely person was filled with doubt and trials for both of us. We both had much to heal in ourselves from our previous experiences with our exes. There was much self doubt mostly manifested in "am I good enough for this person", and what if I "f **k this up again". These self doubts saw me unwittingly test my person at times I pushed him away repeatedly; he tested me and us with his desire to be superman sharing little of his pain and never wanting to be vulnerable, to not be Mr Right, Mr Perfect.
This will sound cliché for sure, but it was through the hardest first year of being together that we actually supported each other with healing from our previous relationships. Ok ideally we would have done this before entering into a new relationship, but you know what, no matter how healed you think you are from your last relationship, there are still painful FOO's and residual relationship patterns and temperaments and personality traits to influence any relationship. You're going to make mistakes in your next relationship JujuB. Some big bad ones at times, let me tell you, and those mistakes will be some of the ones you made with your ex and some will make you question your commitment, resolve and love for this new person. They make you question yourself and your ability to be better and do better.
With all the above said JujuB this divorce process changes you, you can't not be changed by what you have experienced. As Lady V says once you know you can never unknow. The JujuB you were, whoever she was really doesn't exist anymore. Forgive her for what did and didn't do, what she couldn't fix. She served you JujuB, her job is done and it is time to let her go. Please find healing where you can, have some peace, drop the rope to the past. You really are done with it. There is nothing to find there anymore. Your new life is forward not back.
As for trusting that there is a good man out there for you to partner with and share love and life. Only time will tell. But what I do know and I think I have said this previously, and I hope a lot more eloquently in other threads of mine. JujuB, this divorce process is layer upon layer of grief and loss, until it's not. It knocks your self confidence and sense of self like nothing ever will. We lose a sense of certainty about ourselves and about the world. Prior to this process we somehow in a god like sense of ourselves thought we had far more influence over our circumstance and people than we actually have. We were left vulnerable and smashed, some of us in tiny little pieces. You have however survived to tell the tale.
I have been fortunate to meet someone who has helped me scoop up all those little pieces and quiet frankly as long as we are loving, committed and peaceful with each other, he cares not one bit if I stay broken forever. I have met a person who believes in unconditional love and commitment. You know the type of love that Zues talks about, the person who stays and accepts that not everyday is Valentine's Day.
The key to it all JujuB is vulnerability, all good relationships flourish where yourself and other are prepared to expose yourself. Your description of detachment about yourself continues to convey the sentiment of what we have discussed on prior occasions. Intimacy and vulnerability scare you. And what I am learning is you cannot truely connect with the other, the partner you seek without it.
What do we share in common, our love of emotionally unavailable men. They keep us safe from truely experiencing ourselves, they deny us opportunity to be vulnerable and intimate (like true intimacy). My experience of you JujuB is that you are very comfortable with vulnerability in certain places and about certain things. But intimacy within a romantic partner relationship appears to have been elusive to you.
There are a couple of books I believe would help, one by Brene Brown and the other Natalie Lu. I'll pm you the titles. These books opened my eyes to some personal patterns that were stopping me from truely loving myself and someone else.
Keep posting JujuB, i feel like you are at the beginning of something!
JuJuB and JellyB, I really enjoy reading the discussions between the 2 of you. There's some great reflection and advice in here.
In going through my own D, I realized I was emotionally unavailable (though my XW was too). I don't think that's who I initially was, but it's who I became in the M. My IC gave me a great book on it by Patti Henry. There's a section for women that also helps them examine why they're attracted to emotionally unavailable men. I wanted so hard to work on it, but this was after BD and my XW was having none of it. At least I've learned I can open up to others about my D, and work on my emotions more in that respect.
Me-47,XW-43 S13,S16 M:18 BD:4-23-17 W filed:7-17-17 (5 months of in-house separation hell) W moved out:1-6-18 D granted:2-15-18 Decree signed:3-29-18
No human is ever perfect. No R is ever everything.
As Jelly says it's work and play.
Zues has the gift of directed anger, some of us work from other emotions, mine is fear. Jelly from sweetsadness. I think yours is from disgust of yourself, of XWH, of L......
It's ok, it's who we are. Our nature, our composition.
Addiction is a dark hole, secretive addiction is a dark hole to hell. Addicts put the addiction first in their lives. Once they cross that Rubicon there is no going back, they are addicted forever.
Addiction in its initial stages is a choice, they choose to use a substance, a behaviour or a ritual. It is their need to involve their soul and body in self indulgent destruction. Ironically the happier their prospects the more likely they are to indulge to destruction.
No other can make an adult an addict. In fact I would think your presence slowed the disease process not encouraged it. Once the addict is gripped fully by the addiction then that comes first. Hiding the addiction shows deep shame of it and self. It's wasteful and you have done the right thing by your child in limiting overnight contact.
I know what covert addiction can do to an R. Even an open addiction can damage. In that you will have to trust me, I walked 12 steps with the addiction. And the addict resented me more for wanting him clean of gambling, smoking, drinking and womanising, being clean requires a lot of strength and boredom. It means releasing love and being a non addict. Being loving in that phase pushed the addict away, made him go more underground.
Your xWH isnt a special snowflake sort of addict. Addicts are exclusively the same, addicted to destruction. You can't love that away, being a better partner would likely have sped up the destruction. And letting the addict continue with the addiction which is what they want is enabling.
Who knows if new guy is the one, who knows if it will last, there are no guarantees in it. It is great to work on your R skills, I say this often to myself but as yet don't have your courage or Jelly to get into a new R.
Four years on this March since BD1 and still not ready. In this I am like Zues I do believe that an M is for life and that it takes work. I just don't want to choose another abusive R and don't trust myself.
You are doing great Ju. And it's ok to be cautious and it seems to me your stance is right for this phase of R.
Love as always
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
I have not talked about this but to a few trusted people. The first year of my relationship with my new lovely person was filled with doubt and trials for both of us. We both had much to heal in ourselves from our previous experiences with our exes. There was much self doubt mostly manifested in "am I good enough for this person", and what if I "f **k this up again". These self doubts saw me unwittingly test my person at times I pushed him away repeatedly; he tested me and us with his desire to be superman sharing little of his pain and never wanting to be vulnerable, to not be Mr Right, Mr Perfect.
I can totally understand the not wanting to be vulnerable again. That is me. I am ashamed of myself for the amount of begging and lack of pride that I had after BD and I never want to be that person again.
This will sound cliché for sure, but it was through the hardest first year of being together that we actually supported each other with healing from our previous relationships. Ok ideally we would have done this before entering into a new relationship, but you know what, no matter how healed you think you are from your last relationship, there are still painful FOO's and residual relationship patterns and temperaments and personality traits to influence any relationship. You're going to make mistakes in your next relationship JujuB. Some big bad ones at times, let me tell you, and those mistakes will be some of the ones you made with your ex and some will make you question your commitment, resolve and love for this new person. They make you question yourself and your ability to be better and do better.
Great points.Not being vulnerable certainly slows that process down perhaps. My ex was annoyed with and always ignored my needs. I was very clear cut in communicating them to him and it was taken as criticism and nagging. Now I dont voice my needs. I am very cool and easy to get along with. No demands. I dont even know what my needs are. I know thats not ideal for a new relationship
We are both starting relationships now with either baggage or experiences. I guess it depends upon how one sees it, Which makes it harder in some ways..we are more cynical, and less willing to be vulnerable. But also easier. We are more self aware and perhaps wont take things for granted as readily
With all the above said JujuB this divorce process changes ]you, you can't not be changed by what you have experienced. As Lady V says once you know you can never unknow. The JujuB you were, whoever she was really doesn't exist anymore. Forgive her for what did and didn't do, what she couldn't fix. She served you JujuB, her job is done and it is time to let her go. Please find healing where you can, have some peace, drop the rope to the past. You really are done with it. There is nothing to find there anymore. Your new life is forward not back.
Thank you Jelly. I know this is great advice. It is hard for me to let go. I am not indifferent towards ex. Ending a marriage with my ex was never something I wanted. I wanted my future to be with him. And I was really unhappy and frustrated with our relationship.
As for trusting that there is a good man out there for you to partner with and share love and life. Only time will tell. But what I do know and I think I have said this previously, and I hope a lot more eloquently in other threads of mine. JujuB, this divorce process is layer upon layer of grief and loss, until it's not. It knocks your self confidence and sense of self like nothing ever will. We lose a sense of certainty about ourselves and about the world. Prior to this process we somehow in a god like sense of ourselves thought we had far more influence over our circumstance and people than we actually have. We were left vulnerable and smashed, some of us in tiny little pieces. You have however survived to tell the tale.
Yes, Yes, Yes!!! This is perfectly expressed. Why do we care and they dont though?
I have been fortunate to meet someone who has helped me scoop up all those little pieces and quiet frankly as long as we are loving, committed and peaceful with each other, he cares not one bit if I stay broken forever. I have met a person who believes in unconditional love and commitment. You know the type of love that Zues talks about, the person who stays and accepts that not everyday is Valentine's Day.
I am so, so happy for you! Broken people are able to empathize better. They have better insight and understanding. They dont get swept up by the little things. So it makes sense that he would love your brokenness because without it, you would not have those qualities that attract others to you...sensitivity, humor, depth, the ability to get down to that core and identify yours and others truths.
Is vulnerability the same as honesty? I think I am afraid to be vulnerable and thus not my honest self
The key to it all JujuB is vulnerability, all good relationships flourish where yourself and other are prepared to expose yourself. Your description of detachment about yourself continues to convey the sentiment of what we have discussed on prior occasions. Intimacy and vulnerability scare you. And what I am learning is you cannot truely connect with the other, the partner you seek without it.
Very, very true.
What do we share in common, our love of emotionally unavailable men. They keep us safe from truely experiencing ourselves, they deny us opportunity to be vulnerable and intimate (like true intimacy). My experience of you JujuB is that you are very comfortable with vulnerability in certain places and about certain things. But intimacy within a romantic partner relationship appears to have been elusive to you.
What does it even mean to be emotionally available? I am very honest. Im just not sure how to be emotionally available. I googled it and a lot of the descriptions of emotionally unavailable people could have been attributed to ways I was with my ex. Before BD. Was it because my needs were not getting met first and I was reacting. Or was he responding to me? Which came first? Thats what I am not sure of.
There are a couple of books I believe would help, one by Brene Brown and the other Natalie Lu. I'll pm you the titles. These books opened my eyes to some personal patterns that were stopping me from truely loving myself and someone else.
Thanks. Yes would love them!
Keep posting JujuB, i feel like you are at the beginning of something!
JuJuB and JellyB, I really enjoy reading the discussions between the 2 of you. There's some great reflection and advice in here.
In going through my own D, I realized I was emotionally unavailable (though my XW was too). I don't think that's who I initially was, but it's who I became in the M. My IC gave me a great book on it by Patti Henry. There's a section for women that also helps them examine why they're attracted to emotionally unavailable men. I wanted so hard to work on it, but this was after BD and my XW was having none of it. At least I've learned I can open up to others about my D, and work on my emotions more in that respect.
Thanks. Am gonna look one up. What does emotionally unavailable mean to you? Like how were you emotionally unavailable? Is it the same as detached?
No human is ever perfect. No R is ever everything.
As Jelly says it's work and play.
Zues has the gift of directed anger, some of us work from other emotions, mine is fear. Jelly from sweetsadness. I think yours is from disgust of yourself, of XWH, of L......
Lol. I think you might be right. Its my motivator. Im driven from negativity. It fits! But maybe not a good thing.
It's ok, it's who we are. Our nature, our composition.
Addiction is a dark hole, secretive addiction is a dark hole to hell. Addicts put the addiction first in their lives. Once they cross that Rubicon there is no going back, they are addicted forever.
Addiction in its initial stages is a choice, they choose to use a substance, a behaviour or a ritual. It is their need to involve their soul and body in self indulgent destruction.
Ironically the happier their prospects the more likely they are to indulge to destruction.
Why is this? Its so sad. Truly. My ex had so many great things about him. He was 6'4, super smart, had a great education. But i no longer feel that I ever knew who he really was. I was living a lie for a really long time. I dont even know how long! I dont know my own reality! What was the real him? Who was he? I often feel horrible for him. I do love him still. But then I get so mad at how he treated me.
No other can make an adult an addict. In fact I would think your presence slowed the disease process not encouraged it. Once the addict is gripped fully by the addiction then that comes first. Hiding the addiction shows deep shame of it and self. It's wasteful and you have done the right thing by your child in limiting overnight contact.
Thank you V. I never thought that perhaps him being with me slowed down the disease process. That is really a different way of looking at things. That were it not for me, he could have fell down that hole earlier. Many of his friends were alcoholics and druggies. One of them had OD'd right around BD time. I never knew that friend though and did not know he was still in touch with him. When he was with me, he was not with them. But then later resented me because he felt like I kept him or was trying to keep him from his friends.
I know what covert addiction can do to an R. Even an open addiction can damage. In that you will have to trust me, I walked 12 steps with the addiction. And the addict resented me more for wanting him clean of gambling, smoking, drinking and womanising, being clean requires a lot of strength and boredom. It means releasing love and being a non addict. Being loving in that phase pushed the addict away, made him go more underground.
Your xWH isnt a special snowflake sort of addict. Addicts are exclusively the same, addicted to destruction. You can't love that away, being a better partner would likely have sped up the destruction. And letting the addict continue with the addiction which is what they want is enabling.
I never would have enabled had I known. I think he knew that too. I really trusted him. I didnt know the signs of addiction to even know what to look for. I need to learn more about covert addictions and what they do to relationships. It was why I started IC. I just dont know what was gaslighting, and whether my own reactions and feelings were unfair out of line , or just screaming banshee
Who knows if new guy is the one, who knows if it will last, there are no guarantees in it. It is great to work on your R skills, I say this often to myself but as yet don't have your courage or Jelly to get into a new R.
Four years on this March since BD1 and still not ready. In this I am like Zues I do believe that an M is for life and that it takes work. I just don't want to choose another abusive R and don't trust myself.
I dont know if it is courage. I am not exactly being a vulnerable partner. I just always wanted a family unit. And I am afraid to wait too long. I too believe that a marriage is forever. I am sad that my future will not be with my ex husband. That I am not raising my son with my ex. But this was not my choice. I would have stuck by my ex through this disease because he was my family. He never gave me that choice. He villified me and projected and left. He never waivered. There was never temperature checking, or mixed feelings for me. He was cold and done for the most part.
You are doing great Ju. And it's ok to be cautious and it seems to me your stance is right for this phase of R.
No human is ever perfect. No R is ever everything.
As Jelly says it's work and play.
Zues has the gift of directed anger, some of us work from other emotions, mine is fear. Jelly from sweetsadness. I think yours is from disgust of yourself, of XWH, of L......
Lol. I think you might be right. Its my motivator. Im driven from negativity. It fits! But maybe not a good thing.
It's ok, it's who we are. Our nature, our composition.
Addiction is a dark hole, secretive addiction is a dark hole to hell. Addicts put the addiction first in their lives. Once they cross that Rubicon there is no going back, they are addicted forever.
Addiction in its initial stages is a choice, they choose to use a substance, a behaviour or a ritual. It is their need to involve their soul and body in self indulgent destruction.
Ironically the happier their prospects the more likely they are to indulge to destruction.
Why is this? Its so sad. Truly. My ex had so many great things about him. He was 6'4, super smart, had a great education. But i no longer feel that I ever knew who he really was. I was living a lie for a really long time. I dont even know how long! I dont know my own reality! What was the real him? Who was he? I often feel horrible for him. I do love him still. But then I get so mad at how he treated me.
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I know it's complex but not sad. Great potential things dont make up for the addicted rest. Triumph of hope over reality is never possible with addiction. Addiction is a choice that the addict makes when they enter addiction mode and stay addicted. Destruction beyond destruction and frankly the addict doesn't really care, they prefer the addiction. Even over a sweet wife or screaming banshee! Although the latter makes them think twice and not over step.
I suggest you don't question your reality, there are no answers. Addicts fool themselves in Lala addiction. Addicts are addicts and unless you can be one then you will never ever know. Addiction is no respector of status, nor looks nor education. The addict is not the addiction but eventually there is less and less of the personality of the addict. The addict likes it that way. They choose it.
It is a choice to stay addicted, be aware that your feeling of 'horrible' or 'sad' or 'responsible' for the addict is enabling. They sense it and it lets them validate their addiction to themselves. They don't feel horrible or sad or responsible for themselves or those affected by their addiction and waste. Much better to tell them you are no longer enabling.
There is an old joke in gamanon 'my mother made me a gambler. Oh yes, if I give her the wool would she make me one?' You can replace that with alcoholic, druggie, shoplifter........ The last addictions are illegal too, so the addict has anti social tendencies in it. Frankly I have little sympathy for those who choose to break the law, even that damages families as it restricts the little support the addict gives. Ultimately the addict will always take from family not give to it. Financially it's a disaster and of course no fault D means the addicts are enabled in their waste again.
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No other can make an adult an addict. In fact I would think your presence slowed the disease process not encouraged it. Once the addict is gripped fully by the addiction then that comes first. Hiding the addiction shows deep shame of it and self. It's wasteful and you have done the right thing by your child in limiting overnight contact.
Thank you V. I never thought that perhaps him being with me slowed down the disease process. That is really a different way of looking at things. That were it not for me, he could have fell down that hole earlier. Many of his friends were alcoholics and druggies. One of them had OD'd right around BD time. I never knew that friend though and did not know he was still in touch with him. When he was with me, he was not with them. But then later resented me because he felt like I kept him or was trying to keep him from his friends.
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Addicts hang with addicts. For example Alcoholics know if they keep being friends with Alcoholics (not in AA) they will stay drinking. Misery loves company. So for an addict to recover and stay sober they need to stay away from 'friends' of the same ilk. WH (in this case the waywardness is addiction) wanted addiction hence he resented you not wanting him to be with unsuitable friends. Of course he did. It interfers with addiction, yes it inconveniences the addict. Your ex didn't like his addiction restricted. By endorsing these sort of friends you enable further.
You can't have it both ways Ju, by not enabling, by being questioning and unsupportive you help keep the addiction out of your home and yes reactive abuse (screaming banshee) does that. By being sweet and understanding you enable, enabling of course is that which the addict needs to validate addiction.
Neither works. Why? Because the addict puts the addiction first. Being stronger will slow the addiction down, but eventually the addict trades addiction for family. It is their choice not yours. The result is the same, faster or slower the addiction is the same in the end.
Will the addict ever regret that? Not until rock bottom and then they feel sorry for themselves, not the destruction they caused.
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I know what covert addiction can do to an R. Even an open addiction can damage. In that you will have to trust me, I walked 12 steps with the addiction. And the addict resented me more for wanting him clean of gambling, smoking, drinking and womanising, being clean requires a lot of strength and boredom. It means releasing love and being a non addict. Being loving in that phase pushed the addict away, made him go more underground.
Your xWH isnt a special snowflake sort of addict. Addicts are exclusively the same, addicted to destruction. You can't love that away, being a better partner would likely have sped up the destruction. And letting the addict continue with the addiction which is what they want is enabling.
I never would have enabled had I known. I think he knew that too. I really trusted him. I didnt know the signs of addiction to even know what to look for. I need to learn more about covert addictions and what they do to relationships. It was why I started IC. I just dont know what was gaslighting, and whether my own reactions and feelings were unfair out of line , or just screaming banshee
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Surely the point is that when you ceased to enable the addict rationalise that is when the resistance started in the addict. I hope you never need to know about addiction other than to spot the red flags and then to go 'bye' I have had that T shirt thanks.
As Sandi once said to V "there would have been much more than screaming if it was me.' And I say the same to you 'screaming banshee would have been the start if I had know there were serious substance addictions.
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Who knows if new guy is the one, who knows if it will last, there are no guarantees in it. It is great to work on your R skills, I say this often to myself but as yet don't have your courage or Jelly to get into a new R.
Four years on this March since BD1 and still not ready. In this I am like Zues I do believe that an M is for life and that it takes work. I just don't want to choose another abusive R and don't trust myself.
I dont know if it is courage. I am not exactly being a vulnerable partner. I just always wanted a family unit. And I am afraid to wait too long. I too believe that a marriage is forever. I am sad that my future will not be with my ex husband. That I am not raising my son with my ex. But this was not my choice. I would have stuck by my ex through this disease because he was my family. He never gave me that choice. He villified me and projected and left. He never waivered. There was never temperature checking, or mixed feelings for me. He was cold and done for the most part.
consider would you settle for new guy on the basis you want a family unit? That's going to leave you both dissatisfied isn't it? NG isn't xWH. Be with NG because he is your life partner.
You are doing great Ju. And it's ok to be cautious and it seems to me your stance is right for this phase of R.
Love as always
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
What does emotionally unavailable mean to you? Like how were you emotionally unavailable? Is it the same as detached?
For me, it came out as being unable to share my feelings and communicate with XW. I would go silent for a few days or a week. I would make unilateral decisions without her input. I was unable to realize the few times she did reach out to me. Being detached can be taken a lot of different ways, but for me it was mostly just not feeling comfortable "letting her in" to my inner world.
Now, me reading into being emotionally unavailable happened RIGHT after BD, when I believed the M was failing mostly because of me. At this point, I'm not sure what faults were mine, and which ones XW was gaslighting me with.
Revisiting this topic has made me realize XW may have been even more EU than me.
Me-47,XW-43 S13,S16 M:18 BD:4-23-17 W filed:7-17-17 (5 months of in-house separation hell) W moved out:1-6-18 D granted:2-15-18 Decree signed:3-29-18
Intimacy avoiders choose people to avoid intimacy with. I love emotions and feelings. I'm a big feeler and empath actually, but that doesn't mean I know how to be intimate.
Intimacy requires being able to stand naked in front of your SO, being totally naked, exposed and vulnerable and realising you will still be loved and accepted regardless of what the see, hear and feel and know about you. I found through therapy that I have a pattern of sabotaging intimacy to ensure that I don't get my needs met, so that I am not seen. Likely because I don't think I am worthy of having my needs met, worthy of a love and being visible to my other.
I guess what I am saying I am not surprised to here that you think your XW was emotionally unavailable. We choose each other for a reason. Ideally marriage and the person we choose, should (terrible word) assist us in healing this fear of true emotional connection and vulnerability. Our mirror people offer us the opportunity to heal those aspects of ourselves with think unlovable and unworthy. We seldom do it well due to our own needs and broken bits.
I have found a person who walks this scary path with me. It can be done, but requires a lot of self awareness and catching yourself in the moment when an opportunity for true loving connection raises its gorgeous head. I hope you get to experience it.
Now that I think about it this forum and the friends I made here allowed me to practice being vulnerable and exposed. It has helped me no end in moving into a lovely intimate relationship.
Be Brave Holding, become the partner you most want to attract. If that of course is something you want.
Jelly, wow, that's given me a lot to think about. Thanks!
It's scary to realize I chose XW because she reflected my own issues. I mean, I know I chose her and no one forced me to M her, but it's hard to think that I saw (subconsciously?) her emotional issues way back when and was cool with them. Hmmm...
TBH, the further along I go, the more hesitant I become to getting in a R with anyone. I guess I need to re-learn to trust myself.
Me-47,XW-43 S13,S16 M:18 BD:4-23-17 W filed:7-17-17 (5 months of in-house separation hell) W moved out:1-6-18 D granted:2-15-18 Decree signed:3-29-18
How is it possible that he kept this a secret from everyone?
One of his friends told my friend 10 years ago that he slept all day cause he was up doing coke. She told me this over 10 years ago and i thought his friend was jealous of him and exaggerated recreational use in the past.
His friend had also said that he gets away with everything at work and everyone thinks hes a superstar but he wasnt...something along those lines.
I thought he was this superstar. But we had no money. He wasnt getting raises. He wasnt looking for other jobs.
His mother thinks im the reason he lives with her...that all his money is going to child support. He fools jer like he did me. Always evasive and always an excuse.
I dont understsnd how i was so oblivious!!! So blind. I obviously knew something was off because i was unhappy and we were always fighting. We fought because he was illogical. Our relationship was illogocal and i just fought it instead of ending it. And now i know why it was illogical.
I dont understand how he hid this from me for 15 years. I didnt know the signs. But i knew things were off and felt unfair. And i resented him so much.
When i read about spouses of addicts, they usually know and were enabling.
I fought, but at the same tine i accepted odd behaviors. Why didnt i recognize the abnormality?
What are common factors of being married to an addict?
1. He could not have loved me...just an act. Or a cover? 2. Does he love our son? Is it just a pretense? He did not fight for custody. But does responsibly do the minimum of what is required. 3. He was empty. No real passion about anything.except maybe football?
Does anyone know the effects of being a spouse or child of someone like this?
Are there books for peopke that lived with secret addicts. Not codependents that knew.
Anyone heard of the term dry drunks? I qonder if thats more relatable to me tjen someone sloppy or out of control.
I have never seen my ex sloppy or out of control. I thought he hated alcohol. Im pretty sure pain pills. But have never seen them.
How is it possible that he kept this a secret from everyone?
There are two types of addicts. The first are functioning addicts who are covert and gaslighting. The second type are end stage addicts who are overt a D deteriorating. I ask myself the same question, Ju, how was it possible to be with a high functioning gambler who 'blew' 820k in 4 years? How did I not know? Am I stupid? I have finance as my background FFS.
The have to hide the addiction, otherwise those around them might insist it cease.
One of his friends told my friend 10 years ago that he slept all day cause he was up doing coke. She told me this over 10 years ago and i thought his friend was jealous of him and exaggerated recreational use in the past.
That very term recreational use shows the predisposition.
I never caught the G gambling or at the bookies and no one ever warned me. But something wasn't right. I chose not to know and I chose to excuse and I chose ignorance. I didn't know what was wrong but I sensed something was. That's enabling and codependency. Even when I questioned or queried I got rage and blame, his behaviour was my fault. That's script.
Look at this from the addict's point of view, they have a home that someone else pays for, food, clothing, warmth, support, family atmosphere etc. An illusion to third parties of an ordinary family man. And no one questions it!
All of their resources can go to their addiction without them being questioned. No responsibility at all. They are going to maintain that as long as they can. This is why a situation such as yours will slow the damage the addiction does. That is why I say your presence slowed the deterioration.
I just thought the G was sports mad. A golfing freak. Even in court with the analysis of the finances in front of him, he denied it. Had to be led by the nose by a Barrister to admit it. The judge said he was proud of him for admitting it and he had financial needs as he had nothing left. That's why he was awarded a portion of the value of the MBR.
His friend had also said that he gets away with everything at work and everyone thinks hes a superstar but he wasnt...something along those lines.
Charm and bon hommie. He can be good at what he does. Of course he can. Gaslighting all the way. Being an addict doesn't make him bad at what he does, it might make him 'brighter' or more productive. He may have a 'rule' for himself that he doesn't use at certain times.
I thought he was this superstar. But we had no money. He wasnt getting raises. He wasnt looking for other jobs.
Those are your thoughts, he created the image and you bought the illusion. It's called an ego mask, you and I didn't look any further than the ego mask. Our choice, it's enabling and codependency. The addict may morally have the obligation to tell you of their addiction but they don't and we don't ask. Our choice. We want the illusion. This is a long con.
That's standard fare. Addicts are often charmers.
His mother thinks im the reason he lives with her...that all his money is going to child support. He fools jer like he did me. Always evasive and always an excuse.
We enable with blindness. As soon as I uncovered this the raging and blaming started.
I dont understsnd how i was so oblivious!!! So blind. I obviously knew something was off because i was unhappy and we were always fighting. We fought because he was illogical. Our relationship was illogocal and i just fought it instead of ending it. And now i know why it was illogical.
It was illogical. Addicts put their addiction first above everything else. They need resources for their addiction. A wife who works, living off a friend or relative. Every penny they have goes to feed the addiction. The addiction is limited by finance and time. The addict steals both, money the family needs and family time for their addiction. When restricted they give up the family, some tread the path to sobriety. The stats on recovery aren't good, and participating in recovery can also be gaslighting and the addiction goes even more hidden. Addiction doesn't always mean disordered but they tend to go hand in hand.
I dont understand how he hid this from me for 15 years. I didnt know the signs. But i knew things were off and felt unfair. And i resented him so much.
Ju this is the story of all addicts enablers. Once you know then you can never unknow.
When i read about spouses of addicts, they usually know and were enabling.
Ju, that isn't so. Eventually they know, as do I, as do you. There is always a period of covertness the Addict needs that. They have to be that way otherwise they won't be able to continue with their addiction.
I fought, but at the same tine i accepted odd behaviors. Why didnt i recognize the abnormality?
It was not within your experience. It is still enabling. It's called codependency. You are or were codependent. The fact is that is still codependency and enabling even though you were unaware. In the same way MIL is codependent and is being gaslit. As was I. We didn't ask or search because it would destabilise the R. It's a trade off.
What are common factors of being married to an addict?
Each addict is different, but they are the same. The Addiction comes first before everything else. The obvious one is money, there never is any. You will always be broke. Another is time and preoccupation. The addict needs recovery time too. Everything they do is based around their addiction.
1. He could not have loved me...just an act. Or a cover?
The addict loves, it's just they love the addiction more.
2. Does he love our son?
I don’t know your addict. The addict loves but they love their addiction most of all.
Is it just a pretense?
Addiction doesn't preclude love. It won't be an unselfish love as you know and understand it. It's not as you experience it. Love is a choice, the addict chooses to love but they have an addiction. That comes first above resources for those they love.
He did not fight for custody.
Addicts know they are not suited for custody. Plus custody will get in the way of addiction. Functioning is a balancing act for the addict. That takes a lot of planning and energy.
But does responsibly do the minimum of what is required.
Yes, he will, until decompensating starts. It's not responsibility, but functioning.
3. He was empty. No real passion about anything.except maybe football?
Addictions often have a secondary passion. It's a 'filler', it demands nothing and winning and losing of a team gives a rush. Plus he will spend a lot of time in withdrawal.
Does anyone know the effects of being a spouse or child of someone like this?
The best researched is alcohol. ACOA is the term Adult Children of Alcoholics.
Are there books for peopke that lived with secret addicts.
All addicts are secret until you know. Not knowing is still enabling and codependency. We choose not to know and to uncover. You probably covered for him even if you didn't know what you covered for him. You knew something wasn't right and you chose to not know, not to uncover. That's codependency and avoiding the issue. After I married the G and I insisted on knowing the Fins then I knew the unvarnished truth. I too enabled.
The point is that once you knew the truth, only thanks to your insistence on bank statements then the full extent of the damage became clear.
Not codependents that knew.
There is always a period of not knowing that's how it is. Either the addict tells or through a crisis the support person uncovers.
Anyone heard of the term dry drunks? I qonder if thats more relatable to me tjen someone sloppy or out of control.
Dry drunk is when someone gives up their addiction. Their substance or behaviour of choice but they still exhibit the behaviours of that addiction. They have embedded habits and behaviours. Your ex is an addict in active mode and thus isn't dry.
I have never seen my ex sloppy or out of control. I thought he hated alcohol.
He isnt addicted to alcohol. Alcohol is an obvious addiction. Although there are stages of high tolerance and high functioning even for alcoholics. Peeps can work and live with Alcoholics for years and not know. Alcoholics who don't start drinking until 6 every evening. Substance abusers may abuse and the commit illegal acts, such as driving drunk. He won't have the money for two raging addictions so the second may be an obsession like football. Sleeping in a MBR with you and living in a family home would be more restrictive than living with MIL or alone. These are called restrictive factors.
Im pretty sure pain pills. But have never seen them.
He has high tolerance of a long term addict. That is the phase of addiction he maintains. All addicts eventually overstep and start to decompensate. That usually occurs when they are left to their own devices. Currently he lives with MIL so there will be quality food, warmth and security. All inhibiting factors giving structure to life.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
This seems like more blame it isn't. Like V once you knew you ceased enabling. Full stop.
That is a different mechanism from personality driven defects. It is situational.
I also think you would not do the same again.
Codependents with personality deficits move from this type of R to the next type of codependent R. Only the face a and the addiction changes. Usually they move on very quickly to the next R. One woman I know codependent I know is on her third gambeer. One is bad luck, two is even worse but three is a choice.
That difficulty is over and it's reactive or situational, don't put yourself in that situation and it won't happen.
The colloquial term for the experience is called gaslighting and there are fake dreams called future faking. It's the addict to calling card.
Here let me mirror, fog and gaslight you. You won't ever not questions again? No,you will trust your gutime and question.
You current process, questioning, seeking to understand is a good one. Very valuable, shows this won't happend again.
All you are responsible for is hiding the truth from yourself, and consequently enabling. Whether deliberate our dysfunctional it still enabled. Enabling doesn't make you an enabler!
That's because the enabling was the result of gaslighting.
You wouldn't blame Ponzy victims for losing their life savings? Would they question their actions? Of course. Would they question querying a good thing? Of course. Would they put all the blame for being involved in a con on themselves? As in I didn't spot it it's my fault. No.
They were still conned. But are they enabling the Ponzy? Yes whilst it is active but not after.
It's gaslighting by the addict or confidence man that caused it.
Are we responsible for the con.....
No. The addict or confidence man is. The difference is that the addict sticks his proceeds into their viens, stomach, casino or OW slots.
Gaslighting is the main issue. There is a lot out there on changing reality by a confidence man. I choose to see myself as a target not a victim.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Im still healing and coming to terms with all of this. It happened because i was inexperienced, disorganised and lazy. It was easy for me to trust him. It was less work to not insist on keeping track of financials. Keeping track of him.
I am not going to do this when son is a teenager. I will have to be more suspicious and more alert instead of passive and trusting. Easy to ket kids go out with their friends, but requires eddort to check on his friends, friends parents, where hes going etc.
Regarding trust in confident men...
1. First bf was a confident man. He was abusive in that jealous cheating controller way.
2. Ex was a confident man. Arrogant. In control. On top of things. He waa opposite of that 1st bf though. I misread his detachment for someone not prone to being a womanizer and for so eone that would not be possessive and jealous.
3. New guy is also a confident man. Has a bit of arrogance. Hes not a womanizer, or addict. What else is left to look out for? I went for him because he responsibky raised his child by himself prioritized family and was a LBS. Opposite of my ex in that way.
Do i talk to new guy about these concerns? How do i even have these types of talks with someone? I would nkt even know how to bring it up.
Yup. Both were confident men. Both were gaslighting. So why am i susceptible to that? Why did i let them dictate my reality? What do i do to prevent that from happening again?
On a side note. One thing i notice in my ex, and patients that i come across who i am pretty sure have substance abuse issues, and even 1 guy i met up with once from OLD...they all had similar eyes. They make small talk. Are polite. But their eyes are reptilian like. No warmth in them. Hard to describe. Do you know what im talking about? That OLD guy. Reminded me of my ex. And i was right. He admitted to me he had a problem in past and things he said indicated he still could.
Yup. Both were confident men. Both were gaslighting. So why am i susceptible to that? Why did i let them dictate my reality? What do i do to prevent that from happening again? .
I looked to these types of men to soothe my distress and anxiety. Sweet sadness JellyB always welcomes being taken care of; confident (arrogant) men look like they have their sh** handled. Likely they could help me handle mine too or would take care of mine for me.
I looked to these men because of never trusted the world, trusted myself or my own judgement. People like me have few boundaries and rely on other's sense of the world to tell them what is right or wrong for them. However I always knew these men were not right for me because of the level of emotional distress I was in. I was in so much distress with these men, hoping they would fix "the problem" or would fix "my feelings" that I never fully took charge of my own emotions and feelings. Learning to self soothe and manage my own anxiety and stress has allowed me to be more fully present in my own life and relationship.
PS Addicts tend to like drama and anxious people can bring a lot of drama. So easy to point the finger at someone else to distract from their actions and behaviours.
Yup. Both were confident men. Both were gaslighting. So why am i susceptible to that? Why did i let them dictate my reality? What do i do to prevent that from happening again?
On a side note. One thing i notice in my ex, and patients that i come across who i am pretty sure have substance abuse issues, and even 1 guy i met up with once from OLD...they all had similar eyes. They make small talk. Are polite. But their eyes are reptilian like. No warmth in them. Hard to describe. Do you know what im talking about? That OLD guy. Reminded me of my ex. And i was right. He admitted to me he had a problem in past and things he said indicated he still could.
I know what you mean. The frontal lobe is damaged from drugs or alcohol, which impacts their emotional abilities.
M 16 yrs, WH62, P54 3 adult blended kids EA 11/13, BD1 6/14 PA fall 14, BD2 2/15 Piecing 2015, BD3 12/15 Separated 4/16 WH moved OW in 5/16 Divorced 6/15/17
There are a number of different types of dead eye syndrome.
The first is pure evil, the unego masked abuser, who seriously wants to do harm. It can come with a smirk like a reptile. It's unnerving. Generally it's observed once the abuser is unmasked as they can't be bothered to use the energy. Before that the eyes are lambent and the term for the unmasked eye is scoptophilia. In the first the abuser seduces and hypnotised the target by mirroring the targets own emotions back at them, in the second there is no emotion, it's the amygdala at fault. The abuser has all their higher cortex executive functions and the deadness is when they know you know and they don't care, so they don't bother to even hide it. If they think they have pulled one over on you then you will get dupers delight. A serious smug smile, although in general most abusers don't care even to smile that way. These types of abusers don't feel in the first place. This is them without their mask.
The second type is the brain damaged by nature, drugs and alcohol where micro expressions are flat. Affect is flat, higher mental functioning is suppressed. The eyes are expression are cold and pupils inappropriate. It is as Painter says cortex damaged. The lights are on but no one is home. This can be frightening if you get between the addict and the addiction. This person had or still has the capacity to have feelings and emotions but can't access them. All focus is in on the addiction.
The final type is the super empath or lover in love mode. The eyes will seem to look right through you, they will be large (micro expression large, not size) and they are evaluative and adoring. The mouth is largely smiling and there are soft lines around the eyes. The first type above mimics these eyes or mirrors them back to you. The second type above can't do that the link to their emotion is gone sometimes temporarily and sometimes the damage is permanent.
That's how I explain it to myself. The truth lies in the micro expressions. I hope that helps.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
The mask is confident (almost bravado) and the effect is confidence. It tricks you.
Confidence born of arrogance is a mask, a facade presented to the outside world. It is often referred to as the ego. It is how the person wishes themself to be seen.
Colloquially defined :
The part of you that defines itself as a personality, separates itself from the outside world, and considers itself (read: you) a separate entity from the rest of nature and the cosmos. Perhaps necessary for survival in some evolutionary bygone, in modern times it leads only to (albeit often disguised) misanthropic beliefs and delusion.
The question therefore is why did after having one experience, did you fall for a second? And would that happen again?
You are mapped for a certain type of mate, we all are. That mapping can change if you know what it is. Uncovering a mask isn't easy though, but it can be done before you invest in an R. The answer isn't to stand distant, the answer is to query close up before investing time.
Your mind and body may hang on to the trauma to protect you, this can be dealt with. Otherwise it will keep getting in the way, to prevent you from reverting to old patterns. It will be ok, you will get through it. You will put your role in place then it will move through your body to be behind you.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Trauma bonding. I did not know that term but it fits so well regarding my 2 past relationships. With my ex, trauma feels like a better term. EX was detached, did not work as a partner, lied about finances but it doesnt feel like abuse. But definitly trauma.
Im now in the process of letting go from the trauma. I dont feel attached to my ex, i never knew him. But definitly to the trauma. Friends have pointed out to me how unhealthy it is. I do get triggers.
V, thank you for giving me the vocabulary for what i am holding on to. It makes more sense. And i have been trying for so long to make sense of things.
On a side note. I feel so positive about my new relationship. He just has done everything right. I am being courted and it is so so so nice. This was the best valentines day ever for me. Jewelry, we celebrated twice at 2 restaurants. He likes to talk and spend time with me. we seem to want the same things regarding future. He wants some one to grow old with. Many men at this age dont. And hes funny, down to earth, and shares similar morals.
Past few days, i have been feeling a bit depressed. I am not happy with my life right now. And im gonna write all this out and then feel guilty later for sounding so whiny and unappreciative.
I wanted another child. I am 40 now and feeling so sad that i was never able to give my son a sibling.
I was so stupid. I went to school, got a career, gave my ex tons of time. Never pressured him for marriage. Felt like we had continued time. Never pressured him to invest in a house. And now look.
My big mistake in life was choosing the wrong partner.
I cant move to a more affordable area because of sons father. Sons father will be inheriting his moms house while she lives in a warmer state. So not fair.
Now i am without security without a house, without a safety net and all i have is my young son, who i basically raise on my own. He is my life. And i am so so grateful and in love with him.
What do i have that makes me a catch? I wish i was 10 years younger when my ex did this to me.
I have legitimate concerns that men my age will only want to date me. Not form a blended family. Not be capable of loving my son. I dont blame them but i also dont want to waste my time if thats the case. But they are not always honest. Or living in lala land in the beginning.
I dont necessarily know if this is true of the person i am dating right now. Or one of my anxieties. He has indicated this was not the case for him and knew about my situation and woukd have never dated me if that was the case. But i worry that maybe he is one of those passive aggressive "nice guys"
But i do get the vibe that guys like me in the beginning. Looks (for my age), career, i am easy going and logical and not demanding. I am very honest from the beginning. And then they say in their minds "oh sh!t. Shes a nice girl but its not fair for me to take that on" And i feel used.
Years ago i was in a divorce.care group. And this beautiful mom of 2 young kids came in crying because the man she was dating for 8 months ended things because he didnt want to pursue a life with her kids.
He knew she had them when he first started dating her. And i knew he was using her because she was beautiful, smart and really sweet and then bailed when things were no longer new and exciting and blamed the circumstance.
And then we waste 6 months maybe a year of this and im only getting older.
I think i need to give up on the life i wanted. I wanted the traditional life. White picket fence, dog, 2 kids and someone to grow old with. My patents had that. Most of my family had that.
I have to realize that a family is not really in the cards.
Maybe just travel, be the cool easy going mom.
I tend to have more fun and seek out more when im single anyway. I take better care of myself too.
I wish I had some incredible words of wisdom, but I think I am where you are at right now. I feel the loss of the things that were taken away from me by marrying the man I married. Yes, I am better off without him, but I wish to God it didn't have to be between having a crappy H or no H at all.
All my R's start off great too, the guy is really into me, and they can still stay they are still into me, but they can't handle the sacrifices they realize they would have to make when sh!t gets real.
In the same breath, and ready for this, one big reason I have a hard time with this current guy is because he cannot understand what my life is like. I actually feel an ounce of resentment that the man actually has pretty much no responsibilities (his mom still does his laundry) except to work, and he doesn't even do that right now. Because he doesn't know what it's like to have to be fully responsible for anything other than himself, I really don't think it could work. Here I am not wanting to be with a guy because he doesn't have kids, when there are guys who wouldn't want to be with me because I do have a kid.
Enough about me. But I do agree, a step in moving past this is giving up on the life we wanted. Taking the life we were handed and making it the best we can. I kind of figure when my D10 is 18, it's my time. It's my time to travel, make my career decisions on me, and really embrace life. ANd I may even find a partner who wants to do that with me.
I empathize with your resentment, I really do. I have it too.
You have bad case of the LBS flu. Get plenty of rest, exercise, eat right, and do all of the other things people tell you to do.
But, if you're really feeling down, just think about me. I wanted to be a Jewish comedian; it didn't happen. I'm not Jewish and I'm not funny. Then, I wanted to be a female porn star. That would require transgender operations and I'm old and ugly so that got nixed. After that, I wanted to be a black rap star. You guessed it, I'm not black, I can't carry a tune, I can't rhyme and I can't dance. Oh poo!
Now, I've decided to become president of the United States. It's actually beginning to look more and more probable. My campaign slogan is "doodler for president!" Woo hoo!
I definatly have a case of something. And i would vote for you if you run. As long as its not against kudos or caine though. Then i would be throwing my vote away.
I should not be so depressed. God, i just heard of a story about a mom 1 year older then me, leaving behind 2 small boys due to cancer. I am so lucky to be healthy and to have my son. I know that logically.
And ginger, we can travel and do things with our kids now. No need to wait till they are 18. Its always best seeing things in their eyes. I took him to visit family in missouri of all places, and he still talks about it. "Mom, going there was like a dream to me. It didnt feel real. Can we do that again?" I love it!
Im having some doubts about my new relationship and its depressing me. I cant put my finger on it. Im not sure if im blaming him for all my woes with ex. If i am hormonal. Or if i need to just communicate better.
Im emotionally detaching big time though because i am not feeling like he wants to spend time with me and son. I feel like maybe he will do what i want to keep the relationship going as is? But his heart wont be in it?
But i dont really know for sure if he wants what i want and i have to ask him directly. Like im wondering if he is trying to compartmentalize me as someone to date and go out with when my sons not around. But doesnt want more. Understandable, but not something i would waste my time on.
Or am i being to needy? Do i play it by ear. Bring up a direct question? He is not direct. Does not want to say no or reject. But im thinking passive aggressive with things.
So, i am in a new relationship that seema to have potential. We met each others families. Its so different dating at this time in my life though.
But thats not what i want to vent about at 4 in the morning.
I had been worried and suspicious regarding ex. He has a new luxury car amd had been voluntarily takimg son out more. To places that cost money. It was something different and set up my anxiety. Why? Was he hiding his money all this time and no real addiction? I dont know. Hes got a newer and more expensive luxury car now (had one when we were together) but is asking me to wait before i cash CS check so probably just a selfish spender.
Turns out hes doing this cause he has a new gf with a kid.
I know i should look at it as, oh at least son gets to enjoy more outings and more attention. Or ahh. Thank god. Hes not plotting for more custody. Hes just trying to make hinself look like a good dad for new girl. Hea using our son for a cover and it makes me angry.
Im pissed at what a phony he is. And what a great cover he puts on. Its frustrating that everyone thinks he is this great, reaponsible, humble, low key guy. I know they think this because i once did. His personality is not showy at all.
I know who he is now. And i am glad to not be wasting time on someone that is empty and so so selfish. But i hate that it will take ao long for a new girl to discover.
A single mom is a perfect companion for him. He wont have to answer for his tine with her. He wont be expected to share info on finances with her. He will be able to keep up with his habits and no one will be wiser. She will know she has no right to all his time. And will be too busy with her own child to question him.
I wqs too busy qith our child to question him and he was able to deflect and avoid and do whatever he wanted.
Why does this still bother me at the core?
I am glad to be rid of him. I have my son and get tons of time with son. I am in a relationship with someone that wants a relationship and is committed to relationships.
I dont understand why i am still not over his deception.
How do you recover from that type of deception. From continued daily deception?
Amd it exists in great numbers all over. Our most respected artists,and celebrities, and leaders do this all the time. The world loves them. They receive tons of awards and accolades and money and fame. But they are often cheaters and addicts and abusers to their spouses. Np one cares thqt they are on to their 5th spouse.
No on cares or even believes what an a.hole my ex is either.
So why do i still care. Not always. But often enough
Decception and betrayal are the two most awful things I think there is to deal with and let go of. Mostly because this usually comes from those we loved and trusted the most.
I am not over it. It still upsets me when I think about it. I think my mind has finally developed a way to not think about it anymore.
Cut yourself some slack. I totally understand the frustration and conflicting feelings when you see him all of a sudden become more engaged because of some other outside force. You know it is good for your son, but of course like "WTF, now you are Mr. dad for some other woman?" But he is just trying to impress her right now. Surely he will fall back into his old ways. but I hope he finds he likes to spend more quality time with his son.
I am happy to hear your new R is going so well. You are taking everything at a great pace. It's a marathon, not a sprint, and you are doing great. Enjoy yourself.
I think its also the new woman. Like he was so dysfunctional torwards me. Saying things when i questioned him about cheating "you think this is about other women? I want nothing to do with women!!!" As if he was so stressed and couldnt handle anything. The nastiness torwards me.
The fact that he would be going places with someone and working on a relationship with someone bothers me. That he would be paying for someone when he evades my requests for extracurriculars.
If he really was a 800 dollar a week addict for a minimum of 3 years how is he able to have a relationship with a younger pretty woman when great people do not? He is not an aggressive pursuer at all. Just comes across as nice and shy. Amd will attract women that are looking for a good guy.
And now he gets to date someone younger and im sure she would be pretty. He once told me when we were younger how he only dates good looking women. That should have been a red flag.
So im doing a bit of the childish "its not fair " act right now.
I know i would not want to be him, or the pretty younger girl that thinks he is gonna be this great companion for her and her child.
I just feel like it was so easy for him to discard me.
Juju, We all get it. It [censored] when the other person moved on, but keep this as a mantra, "not my monkey, not my circus". My ex remarried a guy who is in better shape than me, taller and has worked hard to earn a good living. I am not jealous of him, nor am I of her being with him. It's more of a "eventually he will see what I saw" attitude. Sadly, with her, the facade is deteriorating rapidly. She claimed to him that she was a devout Christian, they bought a house that he wasn't allowed to move into until they were married. He often travels for work, which is fine, but he recently found out that when he is gone and she is kid-free she is out at the bars, that she doesn't go to church unless he is in town and a few other things. Your ex's new fling will see through this crap as well.
Hang in there, focus on you, focus on your kids and focus on your new relationship. Ignore the "what if's" the "Why would them do this with them but not with me?" and all that other garbage. I heard a line the other day that I always like to reflect on, "I don't have rear view mirrors attached to my head", meaning focus forward, not backwards.
You got this.
Me: 38 W: 32 S10 D6 T: 10 (02/2004) M: 7 (12/2007) Separation 02/2015 OM confirmed 01/2015, D mentioned 12/2014 D finalized 9/2016
Thanks for stopping by eyetie. I can't believe your ex is now playing the devout religious role. Hahahah! I cant believe some one fell for it that easily. I remember your posts well. Hope you and your children are healthy and happy.
Truth is, i dont really know anything about ex's new girlfriend. Just making assumptions. I am not jealous of her. I would not want my ex back.
I just feel like its not fair that he gets to have an easy life. Did I mention his new luxury car? After he banged up his old one. He also got a nice raise (just under to have to pay me more child support) and has his moms house to himself for most of the year
He has the luck of the devil. No one knows who he really is. He is a master at the double life. I dont think the new fling will see it. She will think hes with our son, or that his money goes to me. It took lawyers for me to to find out. And even the lawyers were shocked.
My own lawyers initially did not believe me until they saw the bank statements. They thought i was paranoid or perhaps the scorned wife seeking things that weren't there. I even doubted and still doubt myself. He was so good. And plays Mr. Humble so well. Ugh.
As for me, I am in what seems to be a relationship with lots of promise. I think i am falling in love. He was also a LBS. I think he is a good person with similar morals and values. I like being with him. And the only doubt I had came from me projecting my ex's behaviors onto him. (Luckily I kept that doubt to myself)
I am aware that my judgement failed me with ex though, so a bit cautious. But He treats me really well. And wants what i want...a person to grow old with. Hes a family man and from the same area I few up in, so very familiar and similar backgrounds and culture (If you can call the ungentrified working class ny boroughs culture)
It came so easy for me. I should not still be thinking about ex's life, but i do. Even though my life is getting better.
Luxury cars do not make for a happy person or an easy life.
Would you want to trade places with him?
I know you would like him to suffer, I would like my ex to suffer a but, but I really don't give a crap anymore. He's got exactly what he wants, even though he seem miserable most of the time. Most importantly? I want to be happy and I want my daughter to be happy. Nothing else matters.
You may not have a luxury car or own a house (neither do I) But look at what you describes as having! You did not have to go through dating h@ll to find someone who is on the same page as you, who you are falling in love with, who is a family man. What a blessing!
Ex's life is so insignificant compared to yours. Just another person. My hope for you is that in time, you won't be thinking about his life at all and you will see how much better it is to think about your life! Which seems pretty great, and very much deserved!
Oh Juju...don't be so hard on yourself! I think we probably all go through something similar. I had similar issues with my XH. He had everyone snowed into thinking he was this totally decent, respectable, HONEST guy, but yet he cheated on me. No one would've ever believed me if I had told them that, so I didn't bother telling it other than in posts here and to a few select people in my life who I knew would believe me (namely, my family). Just like you said, you don't want him back, just think it is unfair. I felt exactly the same way, so I get it. I wouldn't take my XH back now if he were the actual last man on earth, but it still sometimes hurts to see him in a happy new "place" while I flounder in the cesspool that seems to be dating these days.
Your life is about you now. Take care of yourself, pamper yourself, focus on you and your beloved child and just rock your own world. You got this! Not to mention a new relationship who WANTS a relationship....awesome!
Me 52, H53 Bomb drop 9/29/2014 Divorce from XH final 12/17/2014 Marriage #2 12/31/2019 5 adult (step)daughters (3 from XH's first marriage, 2 from current H's previous relationships) 6 grandkids
How long does it take to get to that completely detached, "i truly dont care state"?
Again. I'm just mad. Don't want the guy back.
I had a weird dream that i had a beautiful house and he was walking into different rooms with me and I was afraid of him. He was accusing me of something regarding son. And he indicated that he would want to try again, and without hesitation I said "no". But i really didn't trust him in the room with the pool (it really was a beautiful home) I thought he would kill me.
He is not violent. Has never threatened me and Has never once wanted to get back with me either. But it was such a vivid dream.
Dream interpretation isn't as mystical as I once thought. There are some certain recurring themes that come up.
And most importantly is this: While the causes for your feelings in a dream are disguised, the feelings themselves are absolutely consistent. In other words, if you feel threatened in a dream it is because you are feeling threatened in real life.
Some common dream symbols:
The house. Represents you, your inner being. Discovering new rooms is finding new parts of yourself. The fact that it is beautiful may suggest you like a lot of what is unfolding as you rediscover yourself and start shaping your new life.
The pool. Water is your deepest emotions.
So the meaning isn't even really disguised. It eerily matches the first half of your post, the whole "how long until I don't care" question. You want to be 'meh', you don't want him in your house (new life) or near your pool (influencing your emotions). But he still is. This is the threat. It has nothing to do with the real person he is, but as long as he remains such a focal part of your world, he threatens the new life you are building and the peace and happiness you search for.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Thanks forbthe interpretation. Although i thought the house part was just because I want one so badly and I took it as a sign to buy lotto tickets ☺
So, my life is going ok. I'm moving forward. I consistently meet women that have gone through similar stories. I recently caught up with a very close old friend whose ex was really really bad as well.
I am still really angry at people capable of doing this to their families. They often act like "neither of us are bad people, we just make each other miserable". And the world accepts the divorce as this mutual thing. But that is not what i see. I see that usually its one bad person that cheats, lies, is an addict and living a double life. And sadly they had the power to drag down a family. They broke their contract. The level of selfishness is hard to fathom and their own denial and self justification is frustrating.
I dont necessarily know how common a mutual divorce is. I think there usually is this covert abuse..cheating, or drugs that is the major part of it. In which case the person being cheated on is better off...but still a victim.
So i am just really angry. Like I am against pedophiles and con artists and corrupt politicians.
My ex was a really cold cold person. To be able to just walk away from us. There was never any engagement, or doubts, or late night calls, or anything. That takes this extreme level of detachment on his behalf. And i dont understand how someone could be that empty and attached from the mother of his child? Its hard for me to stomach his mask. How nice and responsible he comes across to others. How he plays dad by taking son when hes supposed but barely keeps up with him.
Im not detached yet. But its not because i miss my ex or want him back. He showed me a long time ago the person he is and I know he's scum.
It's just i can't let go of my anger at his selfishness and deception. And at all cheaters/betrayals as well.
My XH wanted me to tell everyone that our divorce was a mutual decision. It was not. I just came home from work one day and he told me in no uncertain terms he was done. Now, there was no abuse...I will say that. He never raised a hand to me nor did he ever emotionally or verbally abuse me. Never one time. But, what I didn't know at the time that he told me he wanted out was that there was another woman, so he'd cheated and I just didn't know it til later.
I totally agree that I am pretty unsure of the number of actual mutual divorces. I would bet that, more often than not, one party or the other wants out then kind of wears the other partner down til they accept it, or as in my case, he just made up his mind and was going regardless of what I said or did. So, I didn't fight....I just let go. I think it was selfish and I think he was cold for doing it, but honestly, it helped me detach. I still get a flash of anger on occasion about the fact that he was able to just walk away like he did, but ultimately, I know that he truly did me a favor, because my life has been better in the last 3 years since he walked away than it was since before I met him....if that makes sense.
Me 52, H53 Bomb drop 9/29/2014 Divorce from XH final 12/17/2014 Marriage #2 12/31/2019 5 adult (step)daughters (3 from XH's first marriage, 2 from current H's previous relationships) 6 grandkids
My x said we had "gone our separate ways" but that was a lie.
I share your frustration juju and I am of the mind that almost no marriage ends "amicably" or mutually.
IF there was ever a strong love on one person's end or both, then I don't buy it.
I have seen maybe 2 marriages that were of convenience and almost like platonic friendships at the start, in which there was never any passion but there was a child or a perceived "need" to be married at a certain age, and those m's seemed to end with less pain, but even then, it was not "mutual" at the start.
I think the discomfort of cheaters and walk aways is a lousy thing that our society is pretending is "all for the best".
Well, yeah it is better not to have a selfish jerk in your life, but it is not painless at all.
Maybe our society is just too uncomfortable around pain.
The walking away from twins is sucktacular
reminds me of the analogy below
For my x to leave when he did, (when I was so sick & after our having gone thru so much)
is like when two policemen are on patrol duty in a dangerous area and one of them gets hit, but the other partner isn't there anymore. There is no back up...
So the downed policeman has to call in for back up --- b/c her own back up is gone --and just waits for the ambulance & puts pressure on her own wound, wondering where the heck her "partner" went --
only to learn that the partner wants to be a fireman now, not a cop...and transferred right before she was shot.
A bit dramatic, I know. But that is how it felt.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Dawn, my ex didn't hit me or abuse me either. He just did whatever the h@ll he wanted. I do consider the gaslighting and money hording/lies a form of abuse though. I do wider cheating a form of abuse as well.
25, i dont have twins. I lied on the logistics about age/kid # to hide my identity better in case someone scanned the endless amounts of posts.
But i think that's a very fitting analogy. And think of the publicity that cowardly cop would have faced. People would have been outraged. Courts would have looked unkindly upon him. And to me, the committment between marital partners should have been greater then the committment between work partners.
My ex was a really cold cold person. To be able to just walk away from us. There was never any engagement, or doubts, or late night calls, or anything. That takes this extreme level of detachment on his behalf. And i dont understand how someone could be that empty and attached from the mother of his child?
JuJu - My ex was a loving person until her affair started. Or so I believed at any rate.
She was always selfish and self-centred not to mention controlling but like you suggest in your post, not overtly abusive. I do remember "joking" with her after her affair turned serious (I didn't know) but before bomb-day that our relationship seemed to have a lot of similarities to the classic spousal abuse. She needed to constantly know where I was, what I was doing and with who.
Personally I believe that the coldness in part comes from their own knowledge of what they did regardless of how superficial that knowledge is. Nobody wants to be the villain of their own autobiography. Getting waay out of my expertise - I would suggest that it's a defense mechanism to prevent themselves from feeling the pain of their victim.
Originally Posted By: JujuB
It's just i can't let go of my anger at his selfishness and deception. And at all cheaters/betrayals as well.
I think I will always have anger at what was done to me and my family. And I'm OK with that. It has dimmed I think to the point where I could be cordial to her in small doses - not that our paths are likely to cross even with 2 kids and living within 15 minutes of each other. I also try not to be upset at the people around me who "don't get it" and aren't as upset as I feel they should be. 3 years ago - I was just like them. I clearly remember laughing when General Patraeus had his affair with one of his colleagues was on CNN defending him with the argument that "the woman was hot".
On BD H52, W50 T27, M26 S21, D23 BD-9-Mar-16 D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18 I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good. But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
So, my life is going ok. I'm moving forward. I consistently meet women that have gone through similar stories. I recently caught up with a very close old friend whose ex was really really bad as well.
I am still really angry at people capable of doing this to their families. They often act like "neither of us are bad people, we just make each other miserable". And the world accepts the divorce as this mutual thing. But that is not what i see. I see that usually its one bad person that cheats, lies, is an addict and living a double life. And sadly they had the power to drag down a family. They broke their contract. The level of selfishness is hard to fathom and their own denial and self justification is frustrating.
I dont necessarily know how common a mutual divorce is. I think there usually is this covert abuse..cheating, or drugs that is the major part of it. In which case the person being cheated on is better off...but still a victim.
So i am just really angry. Like I am against pedophiles and con artists and corrupt politicians.
My ex was a really cold cold person. To be able to just walk away from us. There was never any engagement, or doubts, or late night calls, or anything. That takes this extreme level of detachment on his behalf. And i dont understand how someone could be that empty and attached from the mother of his child? Its hard for me to stomach his mask. How nice and responsible he comes across to others. How he plays dad by taking son when hes supposed but barely keeps up with him.
Im not detached yet. But its not because i miss my ex or want him back. He showed me a long time ago the person he is and I know he's scum.
It's just i can't let go of my anger at his selfishness and deception. And at all cheaters/betrayals as well.
Any thoughts?
Yes. Plenty.
Many of them unfit for publication.
He is a lying cheating wassock with massive entitlement and addiction.
He has screws loose and is a loose screw.
Dump him and dump on him.
I am looking forward to you being in the States of Neh and Meh. That's a short trip from WTFOREVER.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
On another forum they described their spouse as having the capacity of a stoned weasel which I felt was quite creative and perhaps apt.
On BD H52, W50 T27, M26 S21, D23 BD-9-Mar-16 D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18 I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good. But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
It's just i can't let go of my anger at his selfishness and deception. And at all cheaters/betrayals as well.
Hey JJ. I think it takes time. You have to go through a certain amount of anger before it cools a little.
I don't know at what point it becomes abnormal, like you're just hanging on to things and are a bitter and angry person. But I think if you're within 3-5 years of the loss of your family it is still fairly reasonable.
I used to be angry at XW. Then after a while I felt she was just being led astray by a society that has gone mad and I was angry at society. But anymore it all just seems so inevitable. Things are just going the only way they can go. I might as well be angry at kids for watching youtube on tablets.
This doesn't mean you have to join the herd. I have certain beliefs that put me in a very small minority and I can't change that. All I can do is set good boundaries so I don't set myself up for failure by expecting something I'm not going to get from the world around me. And hopefully I can pass on some of my values to my children. Unless that's a bad thing because maybe it would be easier for them to fit in.
So yes, you can always feel strongly about what you believe, and I do think little by little you'll be able to shrug off what the rest of the world does. I think the time you drop most of the anger is when you're no longer feeling pain and loss. As long as you're hurting it's hard to let go of resentment for the ones you feel hurt you. Once you're feeling as hearty as a horse the anger stops being useful and just fizzles out. So I'd recommend continuing to give voice to your anger, but using that as motivation to continue to reinvest in your new life. Have faith that one day it will be awesome and you'll feel differently. Be well!
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
"I was already there with you, so I filed for divorce and left."
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
"I was already there with you, so I filed for divorce and left."
Wait, let's redo that one.
X says to go to he11, I say "been there. Hence filing for Divorce."
(it's just a faster punchline. )
If they are the divorce filers & say it to you, you say "No thanks, I'm finally out of he11 & single."
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
My anger is more of a "how dare he do this to me" type of anger. I am also angered by the lack of responsibility and just complete and utter selfishness. I said this in another post.. i feel that these waywards that acted at the magnitude as most of the waywards here have acted are the worst. Because their sins are committed against their own families. Its not like we were enemies in war, or political opponents, or competing businesses. We were family. Their children are biologically linked to them. Its makes their deceit so so so much worse. And that makes me angry.
I dont buy the whole hate the sin, love the sinner. I really look at them as individual pieces of .. that should be held accountable.
I dont blame this on society. Not one bit. You and i were both raised in the same society and neither of us felt entitled to cheating, neglecting pur children, or spending tons if family funds on god knows what.
But yeah, i know that i have to live with the reality that there are people like that on this planet. That they often go unchecked. And i should have been smarter.
I always felt disgust at people like that. And i thought i was smart in choosing a partner. I knew from my first boyfriend that men who were smooth talkers, heavy complimenters, vain about their appearance were the types of guys to avoid.
My ex was not that way at all so i really never saw this coming. This was different.
You dont know what you dont know. There wasnt any tests of time or circumstances when i met him. We were both young.
He is so neglectful of our son. My brother had to make the choice of pulling his only child off of life support. He would give anything to have the privilege of being a parent.
My ex has a brilliant healthy son and does the bare minimum with him. To me, peopke like that are just bad, or sh!tty at the core. They lack something.
And they are what is destructive to society, not the opposite.
Its people like my ex that were the need for laws that are easily exploited by many equally despicable female walkaways on this board.
I struggle with it, still waking up around 4 am (less often now, but often enough) and I usually wake up feeling SO angry and deeply hurt and a still amazed at the ugly discoveries I've made this past 18 months - and the shock I feel by these discoveries, even now.
Thing is, it's not healthy FOR ME. My son said he's tired of feeling "so much rage" at his dad and that it's hurting HIM (ie my son).
And I know it will consume ME, not xh, if I let it. These folks know nothing of what WE struggle with - X is in his La La Land and if anything, if he learned of my pain and anger, he'd think I should have moved on by now. X is very shallow and I projected so much more depth onto him than was real...b/c I'm not shallow...
So the longer I give rental space in my head/heart to x, the worse I make it for ME.
Every minute I spend angry at x, is 60 seconds I could have spent laughing, or reading or growing...
These phrases ^^^do not always help me, but they are sinking in more.
None of the sentences above pretend that I was not wronged. My kids were wronged too. They know it and I know it.
But at some point I have to let it go or I'll spend the rest of my life reviewing the litany of grievances I have at my x, which I know ARE TOTALLY VALID.
What he did is indisputably selfish and dishonest and indefensible. I don't care what his version is or how crazy his narrative is, I KNOW he betrayed me in every way an H can betray a wife
and he's been a POS father too. I know this, my kids know this and the folks who knew us as a couple, also know it. Most importantly I know it and God knows it.
So, now what? I mean, what do we DO WITH THAT? We were wronged, but rather than being victims, we want/need to be survivors.
Our kids will get gut punched by life, too. They'll feel heartbroken or betrayed at some point in their lives.
WE must model how to handle that with grace, strength and dignity. TO recover and regain our lives and take back our power. That is part of our job, I think.
AND besides, I have finite years left on earth and I refuse to give anymore of my precious time to my x.
It's like I've realized I was sort of a slave to him while married. The subversive commentary and the sabotaging behind my back still stings...but I followed him around with numerous moves and he was NOT grateful.
But if I keep waiting for the grand apology or expecting him to change, or wake up and realize the depth of the pain he inflicted on the 4 people who loved him the most, or if I stay paralyzed with my grief and anger,
then I feel like I'm choosing to remain a slave rather than freeing myself. I have to be free now.
Might not be the best analogy but it works for me.
Make sense?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Thank you 25. What your saying makes perfect sense.
I am not always angry. But i am often enough. If i had financial security i think the anger and resentment might not be so prominent. Like everyday, im confronted with it....trust me. Living with your parents when your 40 will do that to you. Its humiliating.
But i think i also am addicted to the anger. Or obsessed with the situation. If i wasnt, im not sure i would be spending so much time on these forums.
I think i might need to change that. Break the addiction to heart ache.
I think its at the point that when i dont feel anger, it feels unnatural to me.
I used to have other things i was interested in like, reading, politics, travel. Now during my spare time, I devour anything thqt has to do with cheating, men leqving their marriage, men regretting leaving their marriage, narcissists, drug addictions. Etc.
When doodler talked about that article, I knew exactly what he was referring to. That is just sad.
It is a waste of my time. I can be doing anything else and it would be better for me. I dont even watch tv!
I guess the problem is that its not productive anger. Its not inspiring me to go save the world, or work my butt off for something that will actually benefit me.
I think i am an expert at recognizing and analying who the sh!tty people are though.
I think the problem is that you are feeding the anger. You are feeding it by taking your free time obsessing over it and researching what causes you anger.
I fully believe in being passionate about something. I think you are a well-educated vibrant woman with passion. So why not redirect it? Go back to reading and join a book club where you can engage in friendly conversation and debate. Angry about an injustice in the world that you can actually do something about? Like parents not having enough money to feed their kids outside of school? Start a food drive! People who drop their animals off in shelters? Go volunteer at one!
The problem with your anger and obsession is you cannot possibly be productive with it, because you don't have any control at all over the outcome of it. Or, hey, may this would work? The place where I volunteered for Thankgiving is a mission for those who led a life of drugs or crime, or general waywardness, and they keep them on the straight and narrow and reintroduce them as productive members of society. Volunteer with an organization like that.
You are being your own worst enemy by feeding your anger.
I get angry still. I get angry when I am overtired and overwhelmed and that's when I want to scream at my exH the most. But I have to positively direct that anger. Because I can't change a thing. And that will make me more angry.
Dig deep for a productive passion you can get involved in. Get your S involved too! Get the family involved! I think it would do you a world of good and you will realize your energy is better spent elsewhere.
I don't really know what to think of anger. I do think that anger can be appropriate and useful. I think people are too often shamed for being angry. It's probably the most maligned of the emotions (maybe along with jealousy). I'd agree that sometimes anger can become an obsession, but I also think that, because of societal pressures, we're often not allowed to deal with our dark side in ways that could be beneficial.
I think one of the things that drew me toward Jordan Peterson's lectures is that he address the inner "monster" and acknowledges that we all have the capacity for evil in its most violent and repugnant manifestations. He also talks a lot about the Jungian "shadow." What I like about Peterson's approach is that he doesn't shame people for having a dark side. He pushes you to accept it and understand it rather than immediately dismissing it. Just knowing that it can be okay to be angry and have evil thoughts can be a great relief.
Peterson, and others, also talk about integrating the monster or the shadow. At first, I didn't understand what he meant, but now I think I understand integration a little better. When you integrate your anger, you can still access it when you need it. I think that was one of my biggest issues; if I were to lose my anger, then I'd be open to being a doormat again. By acknowledging that it's a part of me that I can use at appropriate times, I no longer have to worry about losing that part of myself, and in turn, I don't feel like I have to stoke the fires of my anger to keep it burning because I'm confident I won't be a doormat. And I think that's the key.
Thanks guys. I think i also need more structured GAL. Im not a ticking time bomb or anything. If you met me in real life i am actually pretty even tempered.
I do have some really great career goals and the weather is improving so i should focus more on getting into top shape. I have a boyfriend with good potential for committment. His family likes me which is supwr impprtant to me.
The other day He actually asked me for my opinion on something pretty significant that concerned his life. And that felt great to feel like my input valued. It was so small but felt so significant to me. I was conpletwly taken aback. My ex never consulted me about anything. He didnt care and just did whatever he wanted.
Was talking to NG and said something like "if you have nothing interesting or fun to do and want to hang out with us tomorrow we can ...."
So he called me on it saying i was making it out like son and i were plan J.
I told him it was carry over from the relationship dynamic with ex.
My ex basically wanted very little to do with us and that became my norm. It was a fight to get him to hang out with son and i on the weekends. Thats humiliating that i would fight with him over that. I should have just detached and left him. Instead of fighting with him to actually spend time with us. I had no pride.
Only now, i realize how insecure i come off as. I dont think i used to be like that. I had normal and reasonabke expectations from a husband and father and partner, but i am now believing ex's wonderland as normal.
I am also very aware that insecurity is not attractive. I was reading on Oranges thread, how they all went after women that were cheating POS but in which there was a chase. How they all want the chase and regret walking away from the more down to earth girl that wasnt pkaying games.
I like being honest and real about my insecurities. Im certainly confident that i make for a really good partner to someone.
But i am still left feeling like an obligation to someone. Thats all ibwas to ex for so long an obligation.
I wasnt a door mat with ex husband. I always argued amd called him out on his very selfish behaviors. (They werent just typical leaving the toilet seat up behaviors..more like sleeping till 3 pm and doing nothing with or for the femaly type of behaviors)
I honestly think i am a bit traumatized by thinking at the end that my calling him out and arguing and having EXPECTATIONS (to save money later found it was going to drugs and alcochol) was wrong of me. That it was my fault. That i was too demanding and too much of a nag.
That was his gaslighting, and maybe my own interpretation of dbing a few years back.
So its carrying over into my new relationship where i feel like i am not someone that others want to be around. Like im not comfortable in my own skin.
I was with a man for years that was leading a double life. He did not love me. It was so obvious looking back. I even recently read this letter he wrote to me when i was going through postpartum and was upset with him. It was all about what a great mom i was. But not about any love he had for me.
I will check out that movie. Looks wise, im not that insecure. Its a much deeper and worse insecurity cause its not about something superficial. I think the surface stuff is what kept ex with me.
Right now Its like im still walking on egg shells. I worry about being too demanding, too needy, unlovable? I was with my ex for over 15 and i am pretty sure he never loved me. It was something i kind of forced on him.
Juju, how can you be in a relationship and love someone else, when you question if you love yourself? I know it's kind of a "blah" statement to make, but when you really think about it, it makes sense.
When my ex and I split, I was set up with a gal who was on a crappy reality TV Show. She was stunningly beautiful, but seriously said, during dinner, after talking about herself non-stop for 30 minutes "Enough about me, what do you think about me?" That was the end of it for me. If you feel like you are not being treated properly, why settle? Be with someone who is your muse, someone who wants your every moment, someone who understands who you are and what you want.
Best advice I ever got is this, a "Pro's" and "Con's" list. I use it all the time. I will write something at the top of it, about some big decision. Then I will write out the pro's and con's. If I lie, I am only lying to myself. Sometimes, it makes a whole lot more sense when it's all out on paper. I think you will see what is right and what you want fairly quickly, you got this.
Me: 38 W: 32 S10 D6 T: 10 (02/2004) M: 7 (12/2007) Separation 02/2015 OM confirmed 01/2015, D mentioned 12/2014 D finalized 9/2016
My ex wasnt a good partner. I think new guy is pretty good. But i am taking it slow. He texts every day. Seems to be a loyal, one woman man. Wants someone to grow old with. Not the frat boy personality which my ex was. He is home at night and seems to like to take on responsibikities, caring for others. Which is opppsote of my ex. NG is a single dad. Got less help then me. So that was a characteristic i really liked. I am confident he is not a secret alcoholic or drug addict.
I am pretty aware that I wont see the negatives for a while though. Just like he wont see mine. I dont know if he has secrets that i wouldnt even know to look for. Like my ex's hidden stuff.
I am aware that i am not as secure about myself as i was whem i was younger. I think its from my ex's opinion of me and ability to discard me so easily. It shouldnt make a difference. But it does.
I am still coming to terms with the fact that ex's actions and neglect and discardment are about him not me. Its what i keep trying to get through to newcomers. But cant get through to myself on a deeper level.
I remember how i was in early high school with boyfriends. At that age i wasnt really attached. It was like you get a crush on someone, and then that crush disappears for whatever reason. My parents werent the type to guide me through relationships. At that age, i probaly would have kept it a secret anyway.
In my teenage self absorption, i am sure i did not handle break ups well. I just wanted the person to go away cause i was done. I never cheated, but i did ghost.
Maybe thats how my ex is. His brain just functions at a lower level as mine did when i was much younger. That inability to empathize or care just isnt there for him. Not for me.
Maybe in the future he will look back and say, yeah that was wrong of me. I should have handled it differently. But nothing will make him really feel what i do cause its just not there. He wont feel regret or loss for me. I dont feel that for any of those high school boys. Just i wish i had been more mature with feelings and communications.
Now, its a bit different.. a relationship when your maybe 15 vs a marriage with kids. But i wonder if that lack of substance i experienced at that age is akin to what they experience.
And meanwhile i am heartbroken and rejected by soneone who really just doesnt care.
So i spent this weekend with NG. Everything is going well. He treats me well. I feel like he has "walked the walk" so to say. Meaning that he has been through worse then i and many on these boards. Single dad with hardships.
Hes not perfect. I overlook things i would have nagged my ex for, which i feel guilty about. On paper he doesnt have what my ex has. My ex would do great on OLD. I dont think NG did. BUT He was able to actually provide for his family. He worked and saved and raised a kid. My ex could not, and twisted it to make it into my fault.
But i still mourn the loss of my ex. Like my ex should be new guy.
My ex isnt. He left me. He was leading a secret life of addiction. He INTENTIONALLY stone walled and neglected me. Actually said to me when i was begging him not to leave "nothing will change for you. Its not like you had my affection". He had us living with my parents while for years he was secretly withdrawing 800 dollars a week. I would not be surprised if he cheated on me though i never found proof.
Yet sitting on the couch with NG, i felt loss and depressed. Which is not fair. I like him a lot. And i respect him. I dont respect my ex. But i felt like i should be doing this with ex.
Anyway, those of you have followed my sitch, know that anger has been a huge issue for me. I feel like i was angry at ex even before BD. I resented him and i didnt know why. My guess is that i sensed something, i just didnt have the language or knowledge base to know what.
I think anger is safe for me. Pre and post BD, I thought him leaving was all my fault. I thought his moods and failure to engage were my fault. And i begged and walked on egg shells. I followed MWDs books and advice (as well as i could) and i was exploited. I hid back my anger from him, which only validated his actions. i lost my sense of self worth and pride. And he really took advantage of me. He pushed the limits because he was not invested in the relationship and i was. I wish i interpreted detach, as disinvest.
He is.nice and friendly to me know. Not overly, but amicable and i dont like that. After his cruelty to me it comes across as patronizing.
The anger prevents me from getting tricked and exploited. From forgetting what he was capable of.
I remember he used to tell me that i needed to be rude to his mom cause she didnt get it. I wonder if thats what he was doing. Being an a..hole to me, cause i wasnt getting it. And now wants things to be civil and normal cause he got his way. But thats a really bad way to treat someone.
There is nothing wrong with feeling anger, nothing, it is a core emotion.
We all operate from one main emotion at a time. Mine is fear. You have something in common with Zues, he uses his anger for great achievement.
And it isn't anything to feel guilty about, it's appropriate to your sitch. It's possible NG works from sadness. A different feeling. All have their challenges.
It's ok, absolutely normal and ok.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Also figure out what if anything in your childhood led to you accepting that kind of behavior from your H as normal.
AND OR
Try to see that your xh got you to lower your expectations of him greatly, (while probably increasing his of you.)
HE could not be expected to spend HIS "free" time with family unless HE felt like it...and it was not for you to complain, but to accept his kibbles with gratitude.
Whereas YOU could, of course, make sure all was fine at home so that he could pursue his varied interests, etc. You were the touchstone for him to maintain the veneer of being a family guy while going off when he wanted. And still does, b/c in reality you WILL make sure your son is fine, as you should.
At the end of my m, I now see how little I had come to expect of my x. As if I believed that in time he'd awaken to how loyal and loving I had been -- and reward me.
Ugh...it's embarrassing to me now.
But I relate!
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
re the anger Juju, it's something I struggle with and try to use as a call to action. I cannot think of anything else that is positive. And frankly, there have been times it literally makes me sick.
Bad sleep patterns and even a few panic attacks, and frequent distraction and anxiety over the crappy treatment that I only now, truly see as abusive treatment. I'm not using the term loosely, but with added insight and knowledge, I now see how mistreated I was and yet it still hurts. SO...
I'm heading over seas in the fall to work with refugees. (This summer I'm getting certified to teach English abroad, and teaching and helping with asylum applications with my legal training could be very rewarding.)
Of course, my hope is that a new environment and sense of purpose will crowd out my thoughts of x and the way I was wronged. It will likely give me serious perspective on the injustices of life, too. Like, my "injuries" and the wrongs inflicted on me are quite minor, globally speaking.
I have found a certain self indulgence to my anger/sorrow, at times. I'm not proud of it.
And I really do believe I'm giving so much more power to my x than I should.
For MY sake, I have to redirect these thought patterns. There is "neuro plasticity" in which we can retrain our thought process and it takes some lessons and direction AND THEN implementation. But it can be done.
It's not about condoning anything my x did, which he probably will never realize, let alone admit, let alone tell me OR apologize for. My happiness (and yours) cannot hinge on whether the x sees the light.
My x seems genuinely unable to comprehend what he has done to others, though he's filled with self pity NOW...incredibly, he sees himself as a victim. And that our kids have been "turned against" him by - of course, yours truly. Not that his LONG absences over the years were factors. Nope, just me.
D20 even told x that it's just the opposite. That she resented me for Not seeing him as she did, that I'd defend x when d20 would complain about him and that it frustrated her to no end. I feel badly about that, b/c it invalidated her perspective, which was a lot closer to the truth than mine was. X cannot hear her. X is very invested in his narrative. So is your x.
So invested that he required our children to agree with the narrative or he'd "be done."
They were not to "bring up the past", but were to treat him "with respect, and treat his new wife and HER D17 - with respect b/c 'they have been thru a lot..." -- just an unbelievable thing for a father to say to his 3 kids after not seeing any of them for 20 months...and our d20, whom he cut off tuition for, yet never asked her if she was still in college or how.
And for ME that really was so nutty to say and it showed he truly lacks the empathy chip.
So there's literally nothing I could say (or video tape!) that would get him to slap his forehead and say "OMG you're right! I'm a cruel fool!"
I think your h is similar, though I don't want to project too much of my situation onto yours. Just trying to somehow help with the experience and pass on what I'm learning.
My x is just way too deep into his narrative and down his rabbit hole for me to overcome it.
I ask myself lately, do I want to spend my precious time getting him to see the light? I did not win the "pick us" dance while married, and tried like mad to do so.
But even if I could, maybe, do I want to spend ANY of my remaining days convincing him of our worth?? He11 no. Especially b/c I cannot be with him anymore - I can only hope we can be civil someday.
Knowing what I know now is not something I can "un-know". So why spend my time on hoping to convince him that HE is wrong??
I just want to be happy on my own and enjoy the freedom of NOT having those hideous self doubts that have been gnawing at my self esteem insidiously, for years now. And choosing what I, 25, want to do and where I, 25 want to live.
Like you, I am second guessing R things a lot. I'm also very leery of committing to someone anytime soon. I may never remarry. Just cannot fathom how many signals I missed, how many NOW obvious ways he was untrue and simply NOT that invested in our m or family.
Somehow I projected so much of me onto him, assuming his values mirrored mine, and I spent so much energy maintaining that illusion, that it's hard not to wonder if I'm missing something again...
So the "equation" just returns to us again and again. What are WE doing to improve our side of things? The only thing we do control...is our side of the equation. Making our lives good so that whatever is going on in their lunatic worlds, matters NOT.
The narcissists losers who harm others without regard to the damage they inflict, will go on their way.
**My T asked me today, what I'd say to a woman who got beaten by her h, on a semi regular basis but then had great make up sex and was wooed back. And "loved him so much."
If her M finally ends, and the wife beating xh goes off into the sunset seemingly happy and oblivious to how badly he beat/mistreated her....and remarries and never, ever admits he beat her OR if he does admit it, it's still her fault b/c she "made him so mad"...what then?
I mean, what would you tell her? What if she says she's so hurt and angry that he did that to her, and that she hopes he's sorry, and that he tells her that he "gets it now", and that he gets help and wants to change and not hit her again...
OR he's with OW now, and acts as if he does not (yet) hit the OW...
What would you tell her if she said that it really hurts her to know he's not sorry or regretful, and that she's angry and sad that she was rejected by a man who beat her?
What would you tell her?
Do you see my point?
One quote from the book "The 4 Agreements" that I go back to...
"If someone causes you pain and suffering, & then leaves your life, consider it a great gift. If they remained in your life, your pain & suffering would also remain."
What is it you want to do with your precious time on earth? What do you want to model for your son?
And fwiw, what I'm writing ^^^herein, are all things I have to write down and say out loud to myself, several times a week.
Thinking/writing/saying/hearing myself say them really does help. It'll sink in eventually.
What can you do that would get him out of your head, even for only a day?
When I work at my brother's business, it's almost non stop contact with people. And dang, I have to say, I'm always in a good mood afterwards. There's no time to think of x.
My classes start in 3 weeks and I am stoked. Nervous b/c I'm not sure how my concentration will be, (given the seizures and the meds I now take).
But at least I won't be thinking of x.
Crossing fingers!
And hoping you find a new engrossing endeavor at least a few hours a day when your s5 is elsewhere or busy.
Any ideas?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I was certainly never this great domestic wife for my ex. I am a bit adhd/disorganized/needy. He did not come home to a spotless house and dinner. More like a roasted chicken from costco. I was a bit demanding. I called him out on the stuff i did not like.
Our relationship was never one in which i felt under appreciated for all of my hard work. Nor was it one in which i felt scared or criticized.
I dont want to paint an inaccurate picture as this poor, sweet, wife abused into silence and secrecy.
(Although i was very pathetic pre and post BD. And thats when he took advantage and i walked on egg shells. And yeah, i am kind of mad cause i feel that patheticness came from me trying to 180 and follow DB applicatuons that werent really meant for my situation)
I just felt neglected. He was always disappearing. Not a partner. Not much of a dad after son turned 1. And evasive regarding financials. He was very selfish.
Despite my failings, i was and am a good mom. I was very loyal. I was very unselfish in many ways and it came back to hurt me financually. And i am good at communicating. I would have worked with him if he treated me as a partner.
In hind site he was hiding debt and an expensive habit.
The way he left. The coldness, the way i was so easily discarded..the way he talked to me so that i looked liked the crazy one. That has left a lot of scarring.
I am kept busy. I have a good career. Im working on some new goals with my career. Im busy with son. I have a boyfriend.
None of this seems to prevent that scar tissue from giving me pain at certain points.
Sometimes it leaves me numb regarding my new relationship. Like, i dont even know how its possible to love someone that is not part of your family. Or how do you develop a family with someone new that you dont share history with? How do you eventually blend when you dont have children together? Will he be able to love my son? Will we want to give to each other amd saceifice for each other and make 1 life or keep things separate? Is that even possible with different kids and agendas. If not truly possible , whats the point?
I dont think of men being able to love or attach to children. I know from these boards that some do. But i have also seen LBS questioning in one paragraph whether they should bail. Like in my mind that would never have been an option. Even for a 2nd. Its more rare for moms to abandin their kids. Im not saying it doesnt happen, its just a lot more rare. I worry that many men view kids as obligations. So another mans kids?
I know the central focus here isn't on loving other people's children, but I just felt compelled to weigh in on that particular part. When I was young, I wanted so very desperately to be a mom. To have a baby of my own. But that never happened for me, for whatever reason...just wasn't in the big overall scheme for my life, I guess. But then XH came along with 3 daughters and I can tell you that I couldn't love those girls anymore if I had carried them in my own body and given birth to them. It is likely different for all people, but I have NO trouble seeing myself loving someone else's kids. Of course, at my age, anyone I meet with kids is likely to have kids who are already adults or very close to it.
Me 52, H53 Bomb drop 9/29/2014 Divorce from XH final 12/17/2014 Marriage #2 12/31/2019 5 adult (step)daughters (3 from XH's first marriage, 2 from current H's previous relationships) 6 grandkids
I know post divorce its hard to find some one to simply date, that us even some what nornal. But what about loving someone?
Obviously it will be hard for many of us to trust someone new. But what does it take to love somebody new? They are not family. You are not raising kids together. You are not dependent on someone. Whats the whole point?
I know post divorce its hard to find some one to simply date, that us even some what nornal. But what about loving someone?
Obviously it will be hard for many of us to trust someone new. But what does it take to love somebody new? They are not family. You are not raising kids together. You are not dependent on someone. Whats the whole point?
Did you love your ex and a kid together when you met? It took time to build that, right? Did you only love him after getting married and having a kid?
That happened over time. You make your own lives, history and family that includes your son with a guy who loves and respects you and that you love being with.
Last edited by job; 06/07/1811:25 PM. Reason: add link to new thread
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
DonH was replying when the thread locked. Here is his posting:
I really have to chime in here as I don't have bio kids either but even after being D'd for coming up on 12 years now, I am still involved in my step children's lives. Not as much as I once was but I totally love those kids and always have - no difference, from what I can tell, than if they were my own. Some people still find this odd. They almost always are surprised that I still see the kids, still do things with them, etc. I'm like, their mother and I got D'd - not the kids and I. I knew them since they were 7 and 9 and was married to their mom through both of their HS graduations and when it came to college, it was no different, other than I was no longer married. I'd have no problem doing the same with someone else's children. In fact, I think as JuJu said, I could totally love someone else's children - not nearly as sure about another woman.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
