No human is ever perfect. No R is ever everything.
As Jelly says it's work and play.
Zues has the gift of directed anger, some of us work from other emotions, mine is fear. Jelly from sweetsadness. I think yours is from disgust of yourself, of XWH, of L......
Lol. I think you might be right. Its my motivator. Im driven from negativity. It fits! But maybe not a good thing.
It's ok, it's who we are. Our nature, our composition.
Addiction is a dark hole, secretive addiction is a dark hole to hell. Addicts put the addiction first in their lives. Once they cross that Rubicon there is no going back, they are addicted forever.
Addiction in its initial stages is a choice, they choose to use a substance, a behaviour or a ritual. It is their need to involve their soul and body in self indulgent destruction.
Ironically the happier their prospects the more likely they are to indulge to destruction.
Why is this? Its so sad. Truly. My ex had so many great things about him. He was 6'4, super smart, had a great education. But i no longer feel that I ever knew who he really was. I was living a lie for a really long time. I dont even know how long! I dont know my own reality! What was the real him? Who was he? I often feel horrible for him. I do love him still. But then I get so mad at how he treated me.
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I know it's complex but not sad. Great potential things dont make up for the addicted rest. Triumph of hope over reality is never possible with addiction. Addiction is a choice that the addict makes when they enter addiction mode and stay addicted. Destruction beyond destruction and frankly the addict doesn't really care, they prefer the addiction. Even over a sweet wife or screaming banshee! Although the latter makes them think twice and not over step.
I suggest you don't question your reality, there are no answers. Addicts fool themselves in Lala addiction. Addicts are addicts and unless you can be one then you will never ever know. Addiction is no respector of status, nor looks nor education. The addict is not the addiction but eventually there is less and less of the personality of the addict. The addict likes it that way. They choose it.
It is a choice to stay addicted, be aware that your feeling of 'horrible' or 'sad' or 'responsible' for the addict is enabling. They sense it and it lets them validate their addiction to themselves. They don't feel horrible or sad or responsible for themselves or those affected by their addiction and waste. Much better to tell them you are no longer enabling.
There is an old joke in gamanon 'my mother made me a gambler. Oh yes, if I give her the wool would she make me one?' You can replace that with alcoholic, druggie, shoplifter........ The last addictions are illegal too, so the addict has anti social tendencies in it. Frankly I have little sympathy for those who choose to break the law, even that damages families as it restricts the little support the addict gives. Ultimately the addict will always take from family not give to it. Financially it's a disaster and of course no fault D means the addicts are enabled in their waste again.
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No other can make an adult an addict. In fact I would think your presence slowed the disease process not encouraged it. Once the addict is gripped fully by the addiction then that comes first. Hiding the addiction shows deep shame of it and self. It's wasteful and you have done the right thing by your child in limiting overnight contact.
Thank you V. I never thought that perhaps him being with me slowed down the disease process. That is really a different way of looking at things. That were it not for me, he could have fell down that hole earlier. Many of his friends were alcoholics and druggies. One of them had OD'd right around BD time. I never knew that friend though and did not know he was still in touch with him. When he was with me, he was not with them. But then later resented me because he felt like I kept him or was trying to keep him from his friends.
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Addicts hang with addicts. For example Alcoholics know if they keep being friends with Alcoholics (not in AA) they will stay drinking. Misery loves company. So for an addict to recover and stay sober they need to stay away from 'friends' of the same ilk. WH (in this case the waywardness is addiction) wanted addiction hence he resented you not wanting him to be with unsuitable friends. Of course he did. It interfers with addiction, yes it inconveniences the addict. Your ex didn't like his addiction restricted. By endorsing these sort of friends you enable further.
You can't have it both ways Ju, by not enabling, by being questioning and unsupportive you help keep the addiction out of your home and yes reactive abuse (screaming banshee) does that. By being sweet and understanding you enable, enabling of course is that which the addict needs to validate addiction.
Neither works. Why? Because the addict puts the addiction first. Being stronger will slow the addiction down, but eventually the addict trades addiction for family. It is their choice not yours. The result is the same, faster or slower the addiction is the same in the end.
Will the addict ever regret that? Not until rock bottom and then they feel sorry for themselves, not the destruction they caused.
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I know what covert addiction can do to an R. Even an open addiction can damage. In that you will have to trust me, I walked 12 steps with the addiction. And the addict resented me more for wanting him clean of gambling, smoking, drinking and womanising, being clean requires a lot of strength and boredom. It means releasing love and being a non addict. Being loving in that phase pushed the addict away, made him go more underground.
Your xWH isnt a special snowflake sort of addict. Addicts are exclusively the same, addicted to destruction. You can't love that away, being a better partner would likely have sped up the destruction. And letting the addict continue with the addiction which is what they want is enabling.
I never would have enabled had I known. I think he knew that too. I really trusted him. I didnt know the signs of addiction to even know what to look for. I need to learn more about covert addictions and what they do to relationships. It was why I started IC. I just dont know what was gaslighting, and whether my own reactions and feelings were unfair out of line , or just screaming banshee
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Surely the point is that when you ceased to enable the addict rationalise that is when the resistance started in the addict. I hope you never need to know about addiction other than to spot the red flags and then to go 'bye' I have had that T shirt thanks.
As Sandi once said to V "there would have been much more than screaming if it was me.' And I say the same to you 'screaming banshee would have been the start if I had know there were serious substance addictions.
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Who knows if new guy is the one, who knows if it will last, there are no guarantees in it. It is great to work on your R skills, I say this often to myself but as yet don't have your courage or Jelly to get into a new R.
Four years on this March since BD1 and still not ready. In this I am like Zues I do believe that an M is for life and that it takes work. I just don't want to choose another abusive R and don't trust myself.
I dont know if it is courage. I am not exactly being a vulnerable partner. I just always wanted a family unit. And I am afraid to wait too long. I too believe that a marriage is forever. I am sad that my future will not be with my ex husband. That I am not raising my son with my ex. But this was not my choice. I would have stuck by my ex through this disease because he was my family. He never gave me that choice. He villified me and projected and left. He never waivered. There was never temperature checking, or mixed feelings for me. He was cold and done for the most part.
consider would you settle for new guy on the basis you want a family unit? That's going to leave you both dissatisfied isn't it? NG isn't xWH. Be with NG because he is your life partner.
You are doing great Ju. And it's ok to be cautious and it seems to me your stance is right for this phase of R.
Love as always
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
What does emotionally unavailable mean to you? Like how were you emotionally unavailable? Is it the same as detached?
For me, it came out as being unable to share my feelings and communicate with XW. I would go silent for a few days or a week. I would make unilateral decisions without her input. I was unable to realize the few times she did reach out to me. Being detached can be taken a lot of different ways, but for me it was mostly just not feeling comfortable "letting her in" to my inner world.
Now, me reading into being emotionally unavailable happened RIGHT after BD, when I believed the M was failing mostly because of me. At this point, I'm not sure what faults were mine, and which ones XW was gaslighting me with.
Revisiting this topic has made me realize XW may have been even more EU than me.
Me-47,XW-43 S13,S16 M:18 BD:4-23-17 W filed:7-17-17 (5 months of in-house separation hell) W moved out:1-6-18 D granted:2-15-18 Decree signed:3-29-18
Intimacy avoiders choose people to avoid intimacy with. I love emotions and feelings. I'm a big feeler and empath actually, but that doesn't mean I know how to be intimate.
Intimacy requires being able to stand naked in front of your SO, being totally naked, exposed and vulnerable and realising you will still be loved and accepted regardless of what the see, hear and feel and know about you. I found through therapy that I have a pattern of sabotaging intimacy to ensure that I don't get my needs met, so that I am not seen. Likely because I don't think I am worthy of having my needs met, worthy of a love and being visible to my other.
I guess what I am saying I am not surprised to here that you think your XW was emotionally unavailable. We choose each other for a reason. Ideally marriage and the person we choose, should (terrible word) assist us in healing this fear of true emotional connection and vulnerability. Our mirror people offer us the opportunity to heal those aspects of ourselves with think unlovable and unworthy. We seldom do it well due to our own needs and broken bits.
I have found a person who walks this scary path with me. It can be done, but requires a lot of self awareness and catching yourself in the moment when an opportunity for true loving connection raises its gorgeous head. I hope you get to experience it.
Now that I think about it this forum and the friends I made here allowed me to practice being vulnerable and exposed. It has helped me no end in moving into a lovely intimate relationship.
Be Brave Holding, become the partner you most want to attract. If that of course is something you want.
Jelly, wow, that's given me a lot to think about. Thanks!
It's scary to realize I chose XW because she reflected my own issues. I mean, I know I chose her and no one forced me to M her, but it's hard to think that I saw (subconsciously?) her emotional issues way back when and was cool with them. Hmmm...
TBH, the further along I go, the more hesitant I become to getting in a R with anyone. I guess I need to re-learn to trust myself.
Me-47,XW-43 S13,S16 M:18 BD:4-23-17 W filed:7-17-17 (5 months of in-house separation hell) W moved out:1-6-18 D granted:2-15-18 Decree signed:3-29-18
How is it possible that he kept this a secret from everyone?
One of his friends told my friend 10 years ago that he slept all day cause he was up doing coke. She told me this over 10 years ago and i thought his friend was jealous of him and exaggerated recreational use in the past.
His friend had also said that he gets away with everything at work and everyone thinks hes a superstar but he wasnt...something along those lines.
I thought he was this superstar. But we had no money. He wasnt getting raises. He wasnt looking for other jobs.
His mother thinks im the reason he lives with her...that all his money is going to child support. He fools jer like he did me. Always evasive and always an excuse.
I dont understsnd how i was so oblivious!!! So blind. I obviously knew something was off because i was unhappy and we were always fighting. We fought because he was illogical. Our relationship was illogocal and i just fought it instead of ending it. And now i know why it was illogical.
I dont understand how he hid this from me for 15 years. I didnt know the signs. But i knew things were off and felt unfair. And i resented him so much.
When i read about spouses of addicts, they usually know and were enabling.
I fought, but at the same tine i accepted odd behaviors. Why didnt i recognize the abnormality?
What are common factors of being married to an addict?
1. He could not have loved me...just an act. Or a cover? 2. Does he love our son? Is it just a pretense? He did not fight for custody. But does responsibly do the minimum of what is required. 3. He was empty. No real passion about anything.except maybe football?
Does anyone know the effects of being a spouse or child of someone like this?
Are there books for peopke that lived with secret addicts. Not codependents that knew.
Anyone heard of the term dry drunks? I qonder if thats more relatable to me tjen someone sloppy or out of control.
I have never seen my ex sloppy or out of control. I thought he hated alcohol. Im pretty sure pain pills. But have never seen them.
How is it possible that he kept this a secret from everyone?
There are two types of addicts. The first are functioning addicts who are covert and gaslighting. The second type are end stage addicts who are overt a D deteriorating. I ask myself the same question, Ju, how was it possible to be with a high functioning gambler who 'blew' 820k in 4 years? How did I not know? Am I stupid? I have finance as my background FFS.
The have to hide the addiction, otherwise those around them might insist it cease.
One of his friends told my friend 10 years ago that he slept all day cause he was up doing coke. She told me this over 10 years ago and i thought his friend was jealous of him and exaggerated recreational use in the past.
That very term recreational use shows the predisposition.
I never caught the G gambling or at the bookies and no one ever warned me. But something wasn't right. I chose not to know and I chose to excuse and I chose ignorance. I didn't know what was wrong but I sensed something was. That's enabling and codependency. Even when I questioned or queried I got rage and blame, his behaviour was my fault. That's script.
Look at this from the addict's point of view, they have a home that someone else pays for, food, clothing, warmth, support, family atmosphere etc. An illusion to third parties of an ordinary family man. And no one questions it!
All of their resources can go to their addiction without them being questioned. No responsibility at all. They are going to maintain that as long as they can. This is why a situation such as yours will slow the damage the addiction does. That is why I say your presence slowed the deterioration.
I just thought the G was sports mad. A golfing freak. Even in court with the analysis of the finances in front of him, he denied it. Had to be led by the nose by a Barrister to admit it. The judge said he was proud of him for admitting it and he had financial needs as he had nothing left. That's why he was awarded a portion of the value of the MBR.
His friend had also said that he gets away with everything at work and everyone thinks hes a superstar but he wasnt...something along those lines.
Charm and bon hommie. He can be good at what he does. Of course he can. Gaslighting all the way. Being an addict doesn't make him bad at what he does, it might make him 'brighter' or more productive. He may have a 'rule' for himself that he doesn't use at certain times.
I thought he was this superstar. But we had no money. He wasnt getting raises. He wasnt looking for other jobs.
Those are your thoughts, he created the image and you bought the illusion. It's called an ego mask, you and I didn't look any further than the ego mask. Our choice, it's enabling and codependency. The addict may morally have the obligation to tell you of their addiction but they don't and we don't ask. Our choice. We want the illusion. This is a long con.
That's standard fare. Addicts are often charmers.
His mother thinks im the reason he lives with her...that all his money is going to child support. He fools jer like he did me. Always evasive and always an excuse.
We enable with blindness. As soon as I uncovered this the raging and blaming started.
I dont understsnd how i was so oblivious!!! So blind. I obviously knew something was off because i was unhappy and we were always fighting. We fought because he was illogical. Our relationship was illogocal and i just fought it instead of ending it. And now i know why it was illogical.
It was illogical. Addicts put their addiction first above everything else. They need resources for their addiction. A wife who works, living off a friend or relative. Every penny they have goes to feed the addiction. The addiction is limited by finance and time. The addict steals both, money the family needs and family time for their addiction. When restricted they give up the family, some tread the path to sobriety. The stats on recovery aren't good, and participating in recovery can also be gaslighting and the addiction goes even more hidden. Addiction doesn't always mean disordered but they tend to go hand in hand.
I dont understand how he hid this from me for 15 years. I didnt know the signs. But i knew things were off and felt unfair. And i resented him so much.
Ju this is the story of all addicts enablers. Once you know then you can never unknow.
When i read about spouses of addicts, they usually know and were enabling.
Ju, that isn't so. Eventually they know, as do I, as do you. There is always a period of covertness the Addict needs that. They have to be that way otherwise they won't be able to continue with their addiction.
I fought, but at the same tine i accepted odd behaviors. Why didnt i recognize the abnormality?
It was not within your experience. It is still enabling. It's called codependency. You are or were codependent. The fact is that is still codependency and enabling even though you were unaware. In the same way MIL is codependent and is being gaslit. As was I. We didn't ask or search because it would destabilise the R. It's a trade off.
What are common factors of being married to an addict?
Each addict is different, but they are the same. The Addiction comes first before everything else. The obvious one is money, there never is any. You will always be broke. Another is time and preoccupation. The addict needs recovery time too. Everything they do is based around their addiction.
1. He could not have loved me...just an act. Or a cover?
The addict loves, it's just they love the addiction more.
2. Does he love our son?
I don’t know your addict. The addict loves but they love their addiction most of all.
Is it just a pretense?
Addiction doesn't preclude love. It won't be an unselfish love as you know and understand it. It's not as you experience it. Love is a choice, the addict chooses to love but they have an addiction. That comes first above resources for those they love.
He did not fight for custody.
Addicts know they are not suited for custody. Plus custody will get in the way of addiction. Functioning is a balancing act for the addict. That takes a lot of planning and energy.
But does responsibly do the minimum of what is required.
Yes, he will, until decompensating starts. It's not responsibility, but functioning.
3. He was empty. No real passion about anything.except maybe football?
Addictions often have a secondary passion. It's a 'filler', it demands nothing and winning and losing of a team gives a rush. Plus he will spend a lot of time in withdrawal.
Does anyone know the effects of being a spouse or child of someone like this?
The best researched is alcohol. ACOA is the term Adult Children of Alcoholics.
Are there books for peopke that lived with secret addicts.
All addicts are secret until you know. Not knowing is still enabling and codependency. We choose not to know and to uncover. You probably covered for him even if you didn't know what you covered for him. You knew something wasn't right and you chose to not know, not to uncover. That's codependency and avoiding the issue. After I married the G and I insisted on knowing the Fins then I knew the unvarnished truth. I too enabled.
The point is that once you knew the truth, only thanks to your insistence on bank statements then the full extent of the damage became clear.
Not codependents that knew.
There is always a period of not knowing that's how it is. Either the addict tells or through a crisis the support person uncovers.
Anyone heard of the term dry drunks? I qonder if thats more relatable to me tjen someone sloppy or out of control.
Dry drunk is when someone gives up their addiction. Their substance or behaviour of choice but they still exhibit the behaviours of that addiction. They have embedded habits and behaviours. Your ex is an addict in active mode and thus isn't dry.
I have never seen my ex sloppy or out of control. I thought he hated alcohol.
He isnt addicted to alcohol. Alcohol is an obvious addiction. Although there are stages of high tolerance and high functioning even for alcoholics. Peeps can work and live with Alcoholics for years and not know. Alcoholics who don't start drinking until 6 every evening. Substance abusers may abuse and the commit illegal acts, such as driving drunk. He won't have the money for two raging addictions so the second may be an obsession like football. Sleeping in a MBR with you and living in a family home would be more restrictive than living with MIL or alone. These are called restrictive factors.
Im pretty sure pain pills. But have never seen them.
He has high tolerance of a long term addict. That is the phase of addiction he maintains. All addicts eventually overstep and start to decompensate. That usually occurs when they are left to their own devices. Currently he lives with MIL so there will be quality food, warmth and security. All inhibiting factors giving structure to life.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
This seems like more blame it isn't. Like V once you knew you ceased enabling. Full stop.
That is a different mechanism from personality driven defects. It is situational.
I also think you would not do the same again.
Codependents with personality deficits move from this type of R to the next type of codependent R. Only the face a and the addiction changes. Usually they move on very quickly to the next R. One woman I know codependent I know is on her third gambeer. One is bad luck, two is even worse but three is a choice.
That difficulty is over and it's reactive or situational, don't put yourself in that situation and it won't happen.
The colloquial term for the experience is called gaslighting and there are fake dreams called future faking. It's the addict to calling card.
Here let me mirror, fog and gaslight you. You won't ever not questions again? No,you will trust your gutime and question.
You current process, questioning, seeking to understand is a good one. Very valuable, shows this won't happend again.
All you are responsible for is hiding the truth from yourself, and consequently enabling. Whether deliberate our dysfunctional it still enabled. Enabling doesn't make you an enabler!
That's because the enabling was the result of gaslighting.
You wouldn't blame Ponzy victims for losing their life savings? Would they question their actions? Of course. Would they question querying a good thing? Of course. Would they put all the blame for being involved in a con on themselves? As in I didn't spot it it's my fault. No.
They were still conned. But are they enabling the Ponzy? Yes whilst it is active but not after.
It's gaslighting by the addict or confidence man that caused it.
Are we responsible for the con.....
No. The addict or confidence man is. The difference is that the addict sticks his proceeds into their viens, stomach, casino or OW slots.
Gaslighting is the main issue. There is a lot out there on changing reality by a confidence man. I choose to see myself as a target not a victim.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Im still healing and coming to terms with all of this. It happened because i was inexperienced, disorganised and lazy. It was easy for me to trust him. It was less work to not insist on keeping track of financials. Keeping track of him.
I am not going to do this when son is a teenager. I will have to be more suspicious and more alert instead of passive and trusting. Easy to ket kids go out with their friends, but requires eddort to check on his friends, friends parents, where hes going etc.
Regarding trust in confident men...
1. First bf was a confident man. He was abusive in that jealous cheating controller way.
2. Ex was a confident man. Arrogant. In control. On top of things. He waa opposite of that 1st bf though. I misread his detachment for someone not prone to being a womanizer and for so eone that would not be possessive and jealous.
3. New guy is also a confident man. Has a bit of arrogance. Hes not a womanizer, or addict. What else is left to look out for? I went for him because he responsibky raised his child by himself prioritized family and was a LBS. Opposite of my ex in that way.
Do i talk to new guy about these concerns? How do i even have these types of talks with someone? I would nkt even know how to bring it up.
Yup. Both were confident men. Both were gaslighting. So why am i susceptible to that? Why did i let them dictate my reality? What do i do to prevent that from happening again?
On a side note. One thing i notice in my ex, and patients that i come across who i am pretty sure have substance abuse issues, and even 1 guy i met up with once from OLD...they all had similar eyes. They make small talk. Are polite. But their eyes are reptilian like. No warmth in them. Hard to describe. Do you know what im talking about? That OLD guy. Reminded me of my ex. And i was right. He admitted to me he had a problem in past and things he said indicated he still could.
