Hoosjim's 9th: WW, A ended(?); "All-in" or not?

[hoosjim]

Welcome to my 9th thread. Going on 11 months. How the time does fly.

Here is my previous thread, which escalated VERY quickly at the end. I can't possibly cut and paste all of it, so strongly recommend you read the last few pages of it to get up to speed:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2769301&page=1

My sitch in the next post...

[hoosjim]

My sitch, if you haven't been following it:

In a nutshell, my profile is down there at the bottom. After a long period of neglect, definitely classifiable as a "sex-starved marriage", my W began EA with a close friend last October after I had gone to him for help with my M and basically revealed my W's vulnerabilities. There had been warning signs-- she had come to me a couple three times over past two years telling me how sad/lonely/lost/dead-inside she felt, and I pretty much turned it back on her every time, though one time I did ask her "not to leave" when it looked like she was going to. By the time of BD in January, actually when I overheard convo between her and OM talking, it would have been a stretch to say we were even "friends".

I was weak and desperate at first, but within less than two weeks after BD was really doing a great job with GAL's and 180s, and W noticed. Problem was, she was not a WAW but rather a WW, wanting to enjoy the single life, "girls gone wild" lifestyle with her single/divorced/separated friends, particularly her bff, also a WW(curiously enough, married to my own bff). I didn't handle my interactions with her all that well for a few weeks, wavering between "pursuit" and enablement. Finally got buckled down, though, and GALs and 180s really kicked in and W noticed.

Looked like A was going to or had even already died of natural causes... and then something happened. Still dont' know what. A meet up or night out or party or something and it rekindled. W bought a burner phone which I later found out about.

Beginning of June I tell her my boundary that "I wont share her or live in an open marriage". She indicates that cheater phone is gone and she will NC with OM. There is a big blow up night only a week later where she, I and her bff (who, it turns out, is now a good friend of OM and a major enabler my W's A) had too much to drink, said too much, and my W ended up sneaking out after we went home to meet up with bff and OM. She did NOT know I knew about this, and I did not confront her thinking we could "use a reset" based on events. I do put up some surveillance on her and late June, not long before we are to start intensive therapy, I "catch" her in two fairly intimate/emotional encounters with OM.

I go dark for four days during which she pursues me relentlessly. She finally corners me into a talk where she talks about all the things SHE did wrong in our MR that led us to this point... and then I tell her what i know about her and OM. She then takes several steps (without explicitly promising me full transparency or committing fully to working on MR) that lead me to believe she is really "Trying" in her own way. This turns out to be false as of 7/23 when I find out she has purchased a second burner phone and she confesses to fairly regular text and phone contact with OM. I walked off and left her at car that night, slept in separate BR, etc. and pretty much "go dark", wont even talk to her about it. She keeps after me by phone and text for two days, eventually corners me into a convo, says tearfully that she is sorry she hurt me, that she had been "working up to" cold-turkey no contact with OM (a self-contradiction, yes) and that she had called OM to break it off and destroyed her extra phone (heard that one before) and that she wanted to work on trying to "figure us out." I tell her that it's not going to be that easy, that I am not sure that I can or should trust her and not sure that I want to try to work things out any more.

A week later (8/1, I think), I confront OM and, in an ugly exchange, tell him I know everything and to stay away from my wife and family. While somewhat cathartic for me on some level, this brings back a lot of pain and hurtful feelings/memories for both me and W. We talk about it and she is still bothered by thought that she has "hurt" OM and that he may have been further "hurt" by my confrontation. She also said she is "not sure" what she wants to do about us. I listen but say little. That weekend, we talk again, and I reiterate that "maybe we need some time on our own" and she says (for what seems like the 20th time) that she is tired of all the "pain" and "negativity" and wishes we could just push the "reset" button and let "Monday be Monday and Tuesday by Tuesday without all the painful relationship talk." She also thinks we should just try to "be in the moment" and "try to have fun". I tell her that I am not willing to keep living with the uncertainty, that I am still not certain I can trust her, and that if she wanted to, as she said, "work on figuring us out" I would need some things, including solid assurances the OM was "gone" and to know that she was committed to the process and that we'd get professional help.

At that point, she starts behaving in exemplary fashion. She pretty much doesn't leave the house unless its with me, is letting me track her phone, did not even ask to see her bff (until very recently), and started coming by one of my GAL hangouts where I was going once a week after work. After the discovery of second burner phone, we slept apart for a while but eventually she joined me in 2nd BR and we have been "sleeping" (that's all, sadly) together ever since.

We have progressively been doing more and more things socially, and generally having a lot of fun, and she had been gradually warming up to me, evidenced mainly by increased comfort with me, increasing willingness to touch and be touched by me, and inviting me to do some things she used to do alone. Unfortunately, though, we are still kind of in a limbo where she is not as eager to go rehashing or working through the pain we caused each other, and would prefer to just go out and "have fun" and see if "lightning can strike" and she can get those romantic, intimate feelings back. She has more recently said in counseling that she understands that we are going to have to be more deliberate and "just do it" if we are to get that intimate component back. MC assigned us some reading to do as well as some self-exploration exercises, and we were supposed to circle back with her in a week or two. However, life happened and we didn't get back with MC until six weeks after that intensive.

W says that everything now between us is as good as or better than its ever been, except for that one missing piece (sex/intimacy-- yes, a big piece). She has agreed to go continue counseling on a more regular basis, that it "helps" and that things always "seem better" right after our sessions. While she has several times mentioned IC, which we both agree is likely a must for full reconciliation, she has not yet pulled the trigger on that and has shown varying degrees of commitment to it. There have been similar ups and downs with the joint counselling-- sometimes seeming very energetic and taking the initiative on the projects/work MC gives us, but sometimes letting it lapse-- although she has in general been much more engaged with that than with the IC.

MC said we were going to have to a)work through some of our individual issues in IC 2) Do some work on forgiveness and trust and processing the hurts we had caused each other and 3) Get comfortable with the idea of physical intimacy between us which at times is kind of awkward and weird under the circumstances. Both MC and DB coach's suggestions basically amount to "just do it" (not necessarily sex, but any physical contact.) W agreed that 1 and 2 were necessary, and is coming around about 3, but admits it feels awkward and weird. Weve had an increasing number of of really, really good, fun spontaneous nights, including a fair amount of physical contact, hugs, us falling asleep holding each other.

About a month ago, however, she has experienced a set-back/pull-back. She has been quieter, withdrawn, kind of moody and sullen, and definitely less warm and friendly. This period came right after her losing a close friend from college to a sudden heart attack, followed closely by toxic bff calling her from OM's bar with OM and crew in attendance to "say hi" to her. On the call, she was in tears, but admitted she "really wanted to be there" (she does not know I know about this convo.) The night of the afternoon she had that convo was our really good night out where she started out sad and quiet but really livened up by end of evening (she even through out a couple of playful sexual innuendos) and we fell asleep in each others arms. Other than that, though, the month since that time was generally stagnant, maybe even kind of a downswing. She had bounced back quite a bit from that setback, though she still has "down" spells.

I am not monitoring her regularly, though do spot check from time to time. Nothing to tell though she has, as recently as 10 days ago, "driven by" OM's old hangout but not stopped, gone in or, near as I can tell, contacted him.

Her bff is still a potential problem/hurdle, but bff is a lifelong friend and someone who, despite bff's very questionable lifestyle morals and decisionmaking, my W trusts... probably more than anyone including myself, and bff is definitely preaching the positives of divorce, single-hood, and the OM. She recently "reconnected" with bff (who lives an hour away but journeys here weekly for work) after about a month of layoff, and I have consented to her visiting the one time (where she to all appearances behaved herself). BFF clearly went way over the line last month though with the intentional call from the OM's bar to try to entice my W to come out and meet her and OM (my W declined, but admitted she "really wanted to" and then also declined a dinner invite from bff for later that night and then again the following day... but she definitely spent some time in a funk afterwards, and again for an evening after reading some news about OM's son.) Just yesterday, I found out that... BFF IS DEFINITELY MOVING TO FLA (1000 miles away) when her D is final!!!! This definitely wont hurt my wife's recovery.

For my part, and GAL, Feels like I've actually made a lot of progress personally, even if my M is not. Some of that has stagnated as I have made more time to "be around" my W while she is going through withdrawals from the OM/A, because I suffered a chest injury a few weeks back, and because I have felt funny about going out "on my own" when she is intentionally NOT doing so.

Most recently, things turned a bit weird over a drunken kiss we "shared" last weekend, and about her visit to a department store near OM's hangout. The details of that are extensive, and very pertinent my present sitch, and are detailed in my previous thread which escalated ridiculously fast in the past couple of days due to many many people chiming in with a number of insightful and thoughtful posts. In sum, I am now questioning MY commitment to this process due to W's response (or lack thereof) to the kiss, her take on the likelihood of us getting physical ever again (not very), and my memory of her and OM in the not too distant past discussing in some detail how they were going to do that very thing. (She REALLY wants to live here, with me knowing she wanted and was willing to get it on with the OM, and at the same time telling me that that aint gonna happen with us? I get madder every second i think about it.) Her somewhat shaky commitment to the process of MC and reconcilliation is also troublesome, and that is where we pick up this episode of "The Travails of HoosJim..."

[hoosjim]

Sandi, if you are out there and still talking to me...

You kind of danced around it, but finally said she did commit. Are you currently saying that it was all half-a$$ed on her part?

I am coming to the realization that it may be all half-a$$ed on her part based on the evaluations that you kind folks are offering. I believed she was truly "in", but the things she is saying now seem at least a little equivocal: "I am willing to try and i think these things are probably possible given what MC is telling us, but I also am saying that I have a hard time seeing that point or how we get there based on where we are currently" [which is that even kisses are really awkward and weird and that right now the type of romantic intimacy envisioned for intimate couples "ain't gonna happen" for us] As an aside, this "ain't gonna happen" (whether qualified time-wise or not, now or in the future) is causing me to increasingly do a slow burn. Really? Really?!? She knows i heard her and Om discussing, in pretty graphic detail, EXACTLY what they were going to do to each other sexually if they ever got around to it.. and she was clearly "willing" or close to it... and now she's going to tell ME "well, I'll stay here and live with you and be your wife in name but we wont be doing that." REALLY?!?!?!?

However, I am having a bit of a frustrating moment (after reading your recent posts) wondering how much you were pushing and just how much she truly was on board...

Not sure i understand the point of the question. In some sense, they are all "pushed", yes? In TXHubby's case by the prospect of him leaving, in your case by the prospect of your kids finding out. In my case it was the prospect of losing me (or at least her marriage) and her kids, and possibly the respect of her family. (Note that this is my take and not entirely based on what she has said... see my post on this in the previous thread in response to Ginger's query). When I "took her back" after that final confrontation, we had a talk, where i made it clear that i was only "back" for one reason.. that she had come clean about the phone (yes, under some duress-- i asked her what we would find if we searched the online phone records, but she never had to hand it over physically and I am not the type to forcefully physically take something from a woman.) I laid out my boundary-- I would not share her with another man, or in any way shape or form with OM. Any more contact and I would be gone. I also told her what my conditions for "working on figuring things out with hoosjim" (which is how she had put it when she was telling OM goodbye). Those conditions included seeking professional help (counselling), putting our R first over any others (I had bff in mind specifically, here, but i also meant this some in reference to our kids, about whom i told her i expected our relationship to be given at least equal importance and time, and some type of transparency (and, yes, i was not as specific here as I should have been, though i did say i needed to know where she was-- and so she enabled the tracking of her phone which has remained on ever since).

I know she fears losing the kids, and I think she remembers me saying i would be reluctant to lie to them if asked by them about the A... something she took as a "threat" initially but which i retraced on, explaining that i would not be "outing" her to them in a vacuum, but, if asked (and at the time i suspected that my S18 suspected something) it would be very hard for me to lie to them to further her A. So maybe that's some coercion here? Idunno.

I have been the one to make all the MC appointments. She has gone, willingly, and things have pretty uniformly been "Better" between us following the sessions but, yes, I have had to take the initiative here, though she has been receptive on all but on occasion where she balked a bit, ostensibly because of her work schedule. That actually resulted in a bit of a tif where I reminder her i wanted this to have "priority" and she got REALLY upset in the next MC session saying "so you dont think i am making this a priority It's practically all i think about all day every day, and oh by the way while Im trying to survive a 60 hour work week!" (which was not actually what i had been trying to say... i hadn't meant to say she wasnt working on it, just that we needed to make it "A" priority along with other things--- in particular a school function that she had said we needed to go to for our younger boy that week that conflicted.

I have on probably three or four occasions asked her if she is "all in" or how committed she is. She has typically gotten pretty defensive about this and said "I am doing everything you want" or "This is pretty much all i think about 24/7, of course i am committed to it". And then, most recently, what i posted above and in my last thread from the MC session on 12/6.

FWIW, MC has said repeatedly that if W has not "fully given up the relationship with the OM, there is no point in 'working on' anything. She has also said we both need to be committed to restoring our relationship, and she seems to think that W is committed enough to it at the present time. But i have my doubts. My W's "Right now I just don't see those things happening between us or how they could" keeps echoing around in my head... along with her and OM's graphic sexual talk.

Dont know if all that answers your Q. Maybe with some more color from the MC session below...

I learn she never put her wedding ring back on........which is a sign of rebellion, IMHO.

Look, this wedding ring thing really has me wrapped around the axle. I never even thought of that angle. Well, a little, but the fact that MINE had been off (I simply lost it and had no way to put it back on) for months before she took hers off kind of defused me. Id wanted to hold onto that for if we reconciled... new rings, etc., but it honestly never occured to me that her keeping them off under the circumstances (me missing mine AND having told her I would probably want new rings and vows) was anything to worry about. Now, you've really gotten me worried about it. But not really sure how to broach or handle it!

I asked you to see how she responded in the recent MC. Did the MC assign more homework? What was W's attitude during the session? How did she act on the way home? Did she seem distant, in deep thought, texting, cold, or encouraged and talkative?

We only did an hour, much of which consisted of discussing the kiss, its setup, and our reactions to it. Also talked about the trip to Store X and then some about affair addictiveness and recovery and then scheduling and the importance of REGULAR sessions.

W responded well enough. She left work early, sounded stressed on the ride home when she called me that she might be late, participated in the discussion, seemed comfortable with the MC (perhaps moreseo than at any time in the past-- joking and laughing with her on a couple of occasions) and made noise like she was more likely to consult her for IC than she had in past... said "I almost picked up the phone twice this week to call her, then didn't." (and please don't say im rationalizing here... im just reporting what she said)

W was defensive still about the trip to the store, saying again that she did it because she didnt want to be afraid to go places. MC cautioned her that this was a delicate time and that it could have hurt both me and W and our MR had W run into OM... also that trust was an important component here and had W considered how that affected my trust for her (though she did say W did the right thing by fessing up after the fact). W granted how she could see that was so. Didn't sound sulky or pouty or anything when saying it.

WRT the kiss, my initial recollection may have been a BIT harsh. W related the story, saying she had asked me "well what would you do with another girl in a similar situation" rather than saying "why don't you just do what you want to do" (which is how i'd remembered it but, on reflection-- and remember i was 6 or 7 drinks gone that night-- i think W's recollection was closer to the mark, if not exactly on. In that case, I elected to demonstrate rather than explain. W said she did not really expect me to kiss her, though she wondered if I would and said how she could see that, especially under the drunken circumstances, it could come across as goading or as an invitation. She also said she did not ask that question intending to gauge WON "There would be sparks", but that that was something she thought about only afterwards. Finally, we apparently talked alittle after the kiss, with me immediately saying "wow, that was weird" (I am SUCH an idiot.)

There was no homework other than to continue reading in the book and to meet with her next week. Also to talk about scheduling after the new year, where MC said we should really try to do intensives once every 4-6 weeks since we seemed to get our best progress out of those, plus they are FTF (our other sessions are typically skyped). W concurred that we probably needed to meet more frequently since we seemed to lose momentum between visits if too much time elapsed, and since we both seemed to feel better immediately after visits, and she was agreeable to the idea of regular intensives.

We talked for a bit after the session on our own. Some about the physical intimacy (she's really wondering how we get there and does NOT feel comfortable with the idea of doing that with me righ tnow.)
Also talked about bff (who IS moving to Fla next month... HOORAY!!!!) and about how that relationship would somehow have to be reconciled with ours, if both were to be maintained. Neither of us had any answers for that puzzle, and we both had had the same thought in the past week about how we would respond if asked out to dinner by one of our respective bff's and their respective now-swapped spouses. (yeesh...like a regular frikking payton place around here.) I told her she was a grown woman and able to make her own choices on friends, but did she think that bff's friendship was supportive or damaging to our own efforts. She defended bff some, saying that she (W) was a big girl, made her own decisions, and that bff never contacted OM or did anything else in that regard that she (W) did not ask bff to do. (Which, from the pub phone call last month, we know is not completely true)

We also talked about IC... the fact that she had had some of these personal hang ups and feelings and issues even as far back as when we first met, and whether or not she felt like she would be able to be "all in" any relationship until she got those resolved. She said she didn't know but she kind of doubted it. Said she had been thinking heavily about Ic and had almost picked up phone to contact the MC twice the past week. She has in the past voiced reservations about using MC since MC is also my own IC.

Afterward, she did not seem withdrawn or mopey. Perhaps a bit energized as, for no apparent reason, she ran out and jumped in the car with me when i was going out to fill the car with gas.

[LH19]

HJ,

Again, if she was all in you would at least would be able to kiss by now.

I wish you the best and I really hope turns out well for you!

[sandi2]

Seems like there got to be a bit of a feeding frenzy here at the end of the thread to start a 2x4 party on me and you jumped in as well.

Why do people always think I'm giving them a 2x4? And, since when do I need to have anyone else giving a 2x4 for me to "jump in"? In fact, when I see a heavy dose already posted, I usually refrain. I'm sorry you saw it in that context, b/c it was not my intentions to upset you. I was a little frustrated when I wrote it, so I will try to learn to lay the IPad down and go do something else.

I did go back and glance over the last thread, and I did see what I believed to be rationalizing and/or in a correcting manner in some (not all) of your responses. Perhaps that's the difference in the heart of the writer, and the eyes of the reader. This is similar to texting, I suppose. One's personality or mood, may be misinterpreted in the typed words.

I'm going to say this about the wedding rings, then I'm through with it. The fact you lost your ring, should have no baring on her decision to not wear her ring after she committed to work on the MR. Having a new vow ceremony should not prevent her from wearing her current wedding ring.

I have a hard time seeing that point or how we get there based on where we are currently" [which is that even kisses are really awkward and weird and that right now the type of romantic intimacy envisioned for intimate couples "ain't gonna happen" for us] As an aside, this "ain't gonna happen" (whether qualified time-wise or not, now or in the future) is causing me to increasingly do a slow burn. Really? Really?!? She knows i heard her and Om discussing, in pretty graphic detail, EXACTLY what they were going to do to each other sexually if they ever got around to it.. and she was clearly "willing" or close to it... and now she's going to tell ME "well, I'll stay here and live with you and be your wife in name but we wont be doing that." REALLY?!?!?!?

Sounds as if she has friend zoned you for life. She has even commented on how she enjoys hanging out with you, but once you get back home......it's roommate status again. So, that's a double whammy facing the MR. Maybe during IC, the C could cover some of the SSM issues and get to the bottom of why your W feels that way.

In one of my threads on WW's, I talk about how upon the decision to remain in the MR, the H should let her know it is with the understanding she will be sleeping with him. No more separate bedrooms, etc. He can give her time to go through withdrawals and to get the OM out of her head, but she should know upfront that this will not be a roommate arrangement.

It was fine for you to set up the MC appointments. Your W claimed she ended her affair and was committed to "trying" (which really is not what one wants to hear about commitment, but they want it so badly, they will settle for their S trying). Anyway, the next step was MC. According to what you reported, she was trying and things (friendship wise) were getting much better.

FWIW, MC has said repeatedly that if W has not "fully given up the relationship with the OM, there is no point in 'working on' anything. She has also said we both need to be committed to restoring our relationship, and she seems to think that W is committed enough to it at the present time. But i have my doubts. My W's "Right now I just don't see those things happening between us or how they could" keeps echoing around in my head... along with her and OM's graphic sexual talk.

Well the MC is right. Your W must kill all traces of OM in her fantasies. For me, that was the hardest part of getting through the last stages of the withdrawal/mourning. I would guess your W's defensive attitude toward being "all in or out" comes from her knowing her lack of romantic attraction. She still craves that passion she reads about and sees in movies. If she would meet with the same C for this precise reason (as well as other important ones), maybe she would feel freer to express herself. A woman's most important sex organ is her brain. That's where the problem lies for her. Of course the kiss felt weird, b/c she set it up in her brain to feel weird.......plus, she put zero effort into responding to the kiss, if I read correctly.

Also talked about bff (who IS moving to Fla next month... HOORAY!!!!) and about how that relationship would somehow have to be reconciled with ours, if both were to be maintained.

I don't understand. Does she mean that you and her BFF has to be buddies, if the MR was to be maintained?

[hoosjim]

I don't understand. Does she mean that you and her BFF has to be buddies, if the MR was to be maintained?

Actually, it was a bit more me on that end of it... It came up in the context of it being a challenging three days, between her dinner with bff, stop by at that store, and then the kiss thing. Got talking a bit more about bff and it was I that made the comment that she was a big girl and could decide who are friends were, but needed to decide if her friends were supportive or detracting from where she wanted to go in life... If she and I are working on "us", i have my doubts about bff based on my last interactions with her. Told her that i wasn't sure how I saw two relationships that important to her coexisting without there being some sort of olive branch or other kind of reconcilliation from bff, who has clearly "wronged" me by working against my marriage. She said she could understand how i felt that way, didn't seem to angry or defensive. Didn't say she expected us to be able to hang out... just that she had thought how weird it would be if bff and her AP (who, youll recall, is a former friend of both me and my own best friend who is W's best friend STBXH).

[doodler]

... just that she had thought how weird it would be if bff and her AP (who, youll recall, is a former friend of both me and my own best friend who is W's best friend STBXH).

Dude! I had to read that a few times to figure-out if there was any incest involved.

[hoosjim]

Dude! I had to read that a few times to figure-out if there was any incest involved.

Yeah, it is pretty incestuous/twisted. Easiest way to think about it is a wife-swap amongst two couples who are/were are friends-- one couple comprised of our respective best friends, and another couple comprised of mutual friends, all of whom were "friends" previously. The two other dudes involved are both college fraternity brothers and long-term friends of mine. See, even when I try to simplify it, I can't

[doodler]

Hey man, it's like your very own commune. Your problems are solved. Situation normal; just go with the flow. Peace man.

And, like when you totally get the munchies, choose healthy organic stuff.

[hoosjim]

Sandi, do you think I should be more proactive on a couple of these points? Because I did not earlier establish expectations as to how I expected us to live.

I'm going to say this about the wedding rings, then I'm through with it. The fact you lost your ring, should have no baring on her decision to not wear her ring after she committed to work on the MR. Having a new vow ceremony should not prevent her from wearing her current wedding ring.

I am going to ask that you not be done with it for just one more post: Do you think I should bring it up with her... possibly in next Wednesday's MC session? (which will be our last until the New Year.)

In one of my threads on WW's, I talk about how upon the decision to remain in the MR, the H should let her know it is with the understanding she will be sleeping with him. No more separate bedrooms, etc. He can give her time to go through withdrawals and to get the OM out of her head, but she should know upfront that this will not be a roommate arrangement.

Do you mean just sleeping together or do you mean "sleeping together" Because I would think in most or at least many of these situations a newly-returned WW would not be ready for that level of intimacy. In my case, of course, we are sleeping together... but that's it, though she has become more comfortable with being close to me or even touching me in bed, which is a change from previously when she would perch on the far edge with her back turned. She's still not comfortable being naked around me.

What I am wondering is if I should sit her down, after Christmas or even maybe before (do I want to go through a sham holiday where we pretend all is well(?)) and say something similar to what LH19 suggests?:

"honey I love you and I adore you and I know I have neglected you in the past. I can not continue to live in a marriage with no intimacy. I think you are beautiful and sexy and I can't continue to live in the same house as you without being able to kiss, touch and ML to you"

Because I think that captures my sentiment pretty well. I dont think I can keep living that way... at least not without some hope or some indication or some willingness on her part that things at the very least might change in the future. Or that she is committed to giving working towards that her best shot.

Sounds as if she has friend zoned you for life.

Is being friend-zoned typically a death knell, or can that zone be escaped in this sort of sitch? Interestingly in our case, I was in that zone with her when we first met, before she "came around" to me, lol.

Well the MC is right. Your W must kill all traces of OM in her fantasies. For me, that was the hardest part of getting through the last stages of the withdrawal/mourning. I would guess your W's defensive attitude toward being "all in or out" comes from her knowing her lack of romantic attraction. She still craves that passion she reads about and sees in movies. If she would meet with the same C for this precise reason (as well as other important ones), maybe she would feel freer to express herself. A woman's most important sex organ is her brain. That's where the problem lies for her. Of course the kiss felt weird, b/c she set it up in her brain to feel weird.......plus, she put zero effort into responding to the kiss, if I read correctly.

I think you are spot-on with this assessment. She craves the spark-y feelings she got from OM's blandishments and attentions, and that she sees in her hallmark channel shows and romance novels (which thankfully, at least for the time being, she has stopped reading). (I haven't asked her what she felt when she kissed him, though I was plenty tempted to in session.)

MC's MO here, which seems to mirror MWD's, is to, on some level, "just do it"-- practice progressing levels of intimacy until you get over that awkward feeling, and the intentional acts of kindness and tenderness toward each other will eventually lead to a deeper kind of love and connection. What I am wondering is did I/we jump the gun on that... such that it is not possible to get there from where we are. (Giving credence to the idea that we would need to separate physically).

Problem I have understanding that line of thinking is reconciling it what MWD preaches in her books, which, except for the ATLRT, seem to countenance "waiting it out" as opposed to jumping ship and separating. This is not the first time I have posted this and many here seem to think I am putting my head in the sand or making excuses but... I really don't see the consistency in that line of thinking with the basic DB-=ing tenets. If separation is SO important in some of these cases (in fact perhaps even a sine qua non)-- and I am really trying to have more of an open mind on here lately-- how does that reconcile with MWD's writings and, if it doesn't reconcile, hadn't somebody ought to hip her to that fact so she could put it into the next revision?

Thanks as always, Sandi... you have been giving me a lot of your time, recently, and I appreciate it. FWIW I am talking to MC solo this afternoon, because I am really starting to despair a bit, and get to the end of my rope, here. If you have any suggestions as to specific things I might bring up with her, I'd really appreciate it.