I had a very similar upbringing. Strict parents; religious; good-girl vs bad-girl indoctrination......mostly from my mother; being an example; oldest child; a lot of responsibility was placed on me; etc.
And, I was a good girl! Never did anything that I would have been too embarrassed to tell my parents. I was the proper Christian young lady. Got M and became the proper W. That is..... until I got hooked playing online games (as an escape from my reality at the time)......which eventually led to other things.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Why do you think she ended the affair? Sense of duty? Catholic guilt? Because she missed you? Because she was sorry?
What was her reasoning?
Okay, gonna answer this, but all y'all who get on me for "mind-reading", remember: This time, I was asked..
Ginger, I am not even close to 100% confident I know why. And, of course, that makes the assumption that she has actually ended the affair (a prospect which Sandi2, who has been pretty much completely and unerringly right in reading my W and her status for pretty much my entire tenure here, deem questionable at the moment... maybe worse than questionable.)
Based on what she said, alone and in a vacuum, it would be because "she didn't want to be 'that person' who was 'the cheater'", and she didn't want to do anything to hurt her kids. What she supposedly told the OM in the very sketchy break up call was that she "wanted to figure things out with hoosjim". (Not sure how or if she further qualified that.)
I would wager all I have financially that the kids are at the very least a significant element of it. She has a strained relationship with the one already, and fears losing them or alienating them, though she loves them both desperately. She has said she sees us all sitting there when we have a good family dinner or engrossing family discussion or some other moment and "can't envision us doing that separately or not having those moments in the future."
She has also said she knows that her leaving would hurt and disappoint a whole bunch of people. Obviously her parents who she always has been afraid of disappointing and being shunned by. (Funny thing is with this aspect of it, which is also probably very significant, is that if she is to be the "whole" vibrant person she can be... she likely has to shed that aversion, at least to the extent she practices it now.
And then there's me. She says she doesn't want to hurt me, and I believe her. She actually says she doesn't want to hurt anybody. One of the convos fairly late in the A that I recorded was her talking to bff, and bff was asking her what she was going to do, and she talked a lot about OM and about "not wanting to hurt him", at which point bff said "what about hoosjim? I'm not hearing you say anything about him." To which my W responded: "It's sad, but I've already hurt hoosjim..." (implication being she had not yet hurt OM and didn't want additional people to be hurt). This came up in our discussion a few days after she had called OM to break it off and then I had gone to confront OM to warn him off... which didn't get physical but did become pretty ugly, and in front of his teenaged son (a teammate of my son's on the football team), where she was very teary eyed and said "I hurt him, and now he's been hurt more". And, fwiw, she seems legitimately distraught and remorseful when she or I talk about how much that betrayal from her, with a friend, really hurt me.
Her "Come to Jesus" moment, where she confessed (some would say forced to confess by circumstance) that she had been keeping in touch with OM by phone and text, and where I subsequently walked away, down a wilderness trail miles from home, was extremely emotional. "No! Please Don't Go!" she cried, tears still streaming down her face as she got out of the car to come after me. But I neither answered nor looked back. I think then she realized what she had done, how damaging it was to still be talking to OM, and how much it hurt me. So I think there is a desire there "not to hurt hoosjim anymore" as well, though if I had to guess I'd say I'm second to the kids and maybe, MAYBE tied with her parents.
Does she really want to "give us a go?" Uncertain. Very early, she said she wanted to "see if she could get to a point where she wanted to try to work on us" (this was before the final confrontation, above). Later, it was "Everything is so much better between us and you are such a different person... but the sparks still not there. I want to see if I can be happy living in that kind of relationship" (meaning without the intimacy). More recently, she has granted that if we DO want a return to intimacy that we are going to have to work at it and be deliberate about it... the "just do it" approach. But it still feels very weird to her.
I would say she is definitely NOT at a "I am all-in on this marriage, no matter how hard and no matter WON we are successful in restoring intimacy" or a "I know that we CAN restore intimacy if we are both committed and working on it" point. Which, I think, is a problem. Part of her (or a lot of her) is convinced it can't happen. So it probably wont.
Hope that answers your question
Addendum to the above. A couple of times right after that breakdown at the car and before we both decided to "give it a try", she made teary calls to me, leaving messages saying "I've really been thinking about you a lot the past few days" and said the same FTF a couple of times along with "I do miss you"... though still not in a sexual way.
Last edited by Cadet; 12/06/1707:53 AM. Reason: Combine posts
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
She wants to escape, but she has a lot of ambivalence. And, she's going to turn 50 soon, so time is quickly running-out. The children will be leaving over the next few years and life seems bleak. In addition, her depression blinders are on and she can't see a viable happy future.
so here is my take... just about everything you have said about your wife, i can say about myself... down to the Catholic upbringing... down to always doing the right thing for everyone else... wanting to be a free-spirit... having the close friend who was not a good influence (although i do not blame my friend at all for my actions--and i am sure your wife does not blame her friend) to not wanting to disappoint my two sons... to the weight-consciousness... i am 5'5" and weigh anywhere from 114-120... and just her nuances as you explain them remind me of me... (btw--regarding my friend... there was no way i was ever going to give up that friendship--for anybody... but i did, eventually... it happened naturally as i began working on my marriage)...
first and foremost, i have noticed from the beginning that she never has expressed to you that she was all in in saving your marriage... she played the "wait and see how it goes" card... and many WWs do that very thing... because of this, i would say you are not piecing... you cannot be piecing if you have not both purposefully determined that you will take the steps needed to save the marriage... or at least try to take the necessary steps.. you took her back without a full commitment from her... and now you feel stuck... now you feel like you can't call her out on anything, like she holds all the cards...
but that's not true... you hold the cards... when i approached my husband about really reconciling, one of the first things he said to me was that i needed to seek IC... that was a must... he gave me a certain amount of time to make my first appointment... you can require this of your wife... and you can flat out ask her if she is all in... i think you are afraid to do this because you do not think she will answer in the affirmative... i think if you did ask her this, her answer would be vague... she won't say no, and she won't say yes... she will give you enough to string you along--but you don't have to let her...
before my husband and i really got to piecing, there were some false starts... i wanted to hang on to the marriage, but still do my own thing, so i paid lip-service and did just enough to keep him at bay... i see your wife doing this to you... she can play coy, and you really do seem like putty in her hands...
when she went to her room and started looking through one of the books you are to work through, that--i am pretty sure--was for show... just like when she told you that she was going to store x to purchase a gift for one of your relatives--she was offering you too much information that was not necessary... not natural... both instances she exhibited what i call "affected" expression... it was not authentic... so that makes me think she was up to more than what it would seem on the outside... the clothes, the earrings and bracelet all told you something, but you seem to quickly disregard these signs... she looked to be going over MC material--so she "seems" to be making progress... there is a lot of ambiguity in your situation... everything "seems like," and "appears to be," but nothing is definitive...
personally, i don't think she will BD you again after the holidays... i think she would be content to be non-committal to your marriage while living the single life part-time--which i believe she is doing now... something in her actions and in-actions tell me her A never ended... i know this is all very painful, but unless you know where things genuinely stand, you can't truly begin to do the work--whatever that work is, saving the marriage or moving on...
artista
p.s.... i meant to add that during our false starts, i withheld meaningful affection/sexual affection from my husband because i did not want to give him the wrong idea... it's strange because even though i was trying to do just enough to keep our relationship going, i didn't feel right taking things too far... i didn't want him to get his hopes up... it didn't seem fair to him--bizarre, i know... and i also didn't want to "cheat" on the OM...
Last edited by Cadet; 12/07/1709:53 AM. Reason: Combine posts
p.s.... i meant to add that during our false starts, i withheld meaningful affection/sexual affection from my husband because i did not want to give him the wrong idea... it's strange because even though i was trying to do just enough to keep our relationship going, i didn't feel right taking things too far... i didn't want him to get his hopes up... it didn't seem fair to him--bizarre, i know... and i also didn't want to "cheat" on the OM...
IDK if I have said it on this thread, but somewhere on the board, I have practically said word for word what you stated here.
I'm glad you have decided to start posting. . It's been several years since my wayward journey, and sometimes I think maybe I'm too suspicious or negative about the LBH's accounts of their WW. So, it's refreshing to see reinforcements......and I'm sure these guys are ready to hear what you have to say.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I am glad to hear you say that. Also I find it interesting to hear you mention not wanting to cheat on OM. I often felt that my own W had a sense of loyalty to OM. Who just happened to have his own W that he was clearly never going to give up. If you could check out my sitch on my thread and explain that weird sense of loyalty, I would greatly appreciate it.
Artista, wow, this is all really great insight. I agree that your sitch seems very similar to my wife's (you're even pretty much her exact size-- she's 5'5 and about 115, though if you take her at her word as to what she's gained she's prolly like 125 to 130 now... but wears it well). I was wondering if you'd be willing to give more info on your marital sitch... what led you (or opened the door you) to become a "WW". Was your H neglectful as I was of my W? A SSM? I'd also be curious as to how your H processed and responded to your A? What do you think was the biggest factor in you returning to him? And did he have a bunch of fits and starts (and get it wrong sometimes) before he "got it right."?
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you cannot be piecing if you have not both purposefully determined that you will take the steps needed to save the marriage... or at least try to take the necessary steps.. you took her back without a full commitment from her... and now you feel stuck...
Yes. No question i took her back without a full and satisfactory commitment. I have rationalized on this before, but it is all well-documented throughout my threads. We did, however, discuss this very issue tonight. Came up in the context of our discussion of the trip to "Store X" next to OM's hangout. MC was very clear that that was dangerous and that, whether or not W wanted to admit it, it is quite probable that her hanging onto the EA in some respect, or at least having difficulty getting over it, had something to do with her decision to go out there--- reminded me W about her saying "I didn't even plan to meet up with him that day when I went out" a few months back when that happened--- the last confirmed physical meet up between them in June. (Though i am reasonably certain they saw each other at the beach over july 4th, as well, which is what I use as my "last date" of seeing each other, with 7/26 being "last contact"). I told her how i felt about that, that i felt like she was discounting my feelings and not considering how taking that risk might make me feel and how it might affect her and our progress had she actually met up with him. Also asked her how she thought she would feel had she seen him. Her response was that she knew he would not be there that early, and she continued to say she really felt like she didn't want to feel like she was too weak and vulnerable to go certain places. I told her given what he had supposedly committed to, that that wasn't good enough... aren't we supposed to be putting our MR first. Told her we both need to be fully committed to this-- "all in". Could she say she was fully committed to making his marriage work, to working to restore intimacy and all that went along with that. Her response was somewhat better than it had been previously, but still equivocal, IMO: Basically she said that reading ahead through some of the intimacy exercises, it was "very hard for her to imagine" the two of us doing some of those things. In fact for the more intimate things, she said she "couldn't see it at all" from where she was currently standing (and she cited how awkward the kiss felt), nor could she see how we could get there. She was, however, (or so she said), "willing to try" to get to that point. I and MC both brought up the "going in with an attitude of failure" dynamic, and she said this was not the case... That she "wasn't committed to it failing, she was committed to trying and open to the process, she just didn't understand "technically" how she was going to go from a point of a kiss being awkward to a point of being fully comfortable with sexual intimacy, even as she understood that it was possible from hearing it from the MC and reading about it in the book. At any rate, still sounded kind of noncommittal to me.
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one of the first things he said to me was that i needed to seek IC... that was a must... he gave me a certain amount of time to make my first appointment... you can require this of your wife...
This came up again after the session when we talked., when she said something to the effect of "maybe im just permanently effed up inside", but i didn't put the screws to her. What i DID say was that, while i did not think her going to IC would be a cure all for us and guarantee a full and happy reconcilliation, I also did not think such a reconcilliation (or indeed an fulfilling relationship for her) could happen without her going to IC to resolve those internal issues, some of which have been with her, as she agreed, since we first met. She's never had a romantic relationship where she's felt "100%" or "fully committed and convinced she was doing the right thing." She said she had been thinking about IC and had been close to calling the MC twice this week... but never did. Sounds like your script. We are meeting with MC again next week, and i am holding the IC in abeyance, but if there are further "disturbances in the Force", I may very well establish that as a sine qua non of us continuing. How did your husband ultimately convince you to go, and, for you, what was it that changed your mind to go?
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it's strange because even though i was trying to do just enough to keep our relationship going, i didn't feel right taking things too far... i didn't want him to get his hopes up... it didn't seem fair to him--bizarre, i know... and i also didn't want to "cheat" on the OM...
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it was not authentic... so that makes me think she was up to more than what it would seem on the outside... the clothes, the earrings and bracelet all told you something, but you seem to quickly disregard these signs...
Actually, im not fooled at all. She is not stupid, she knew full well where that store was located, and I have tracked her a couple of times doing drive bys or almost doing drive-bys (she drove out that way once on way to work but turned back) when that's ALL she could have been up to. So i KNOW she is still not fully over the A. Is she actively trying to keep it alive? Unknown... but there ARE a couple of things i want to check.
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when she went to her room and started looking through one of the books you are to work through, that--i am pretty sure--was for show...
Well, she actually DID read it, apprently, and further along than i did. She and MC were discussing a section of it with which i was unfamiliar. But... point well taken, she has definitely "done stuff for show" in the past-- its actually one of her "tells" that something is up.
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. i think she would be content to be non-committal to your marriage while living the single life part-time--which i believe she is doing now... something in her actions and in-actions tell me her A never ended... i
There are definitely some things that make you go "hmmmmm." Problem is, they are all pretty vague and non-specific and some (like the jewelry) may not even be accurate. (I haven't pressed her specifically on specific items, and not sure i really have any grounds to.)There ARE a couple of things i strongly suspect that would definitely make me feel better to hear her "fess up". One would be the bracelet, which looks suspicous but could EASILY be innocuous, and the second would be the 4th of July beach trip with bff where i know for a fact OM was staying less then four blocks down the boardwalk from them (dumbass posted a picture of himself standing in front of a well-known bar and hotel there on FB that week-- i honestly can't believe my wife was attracted to such a stupid piece of low-rent white trash, but i digress), but... her and bff continue to stonewall on that one. It was before we had our final confrontation and her agreement to "work on us and dump OM", so it would be "covered" and I have told her such, but she's not biting. All I can think of is that that one, where she left us over the holiday weekend after our own family beach trip, might look particularly bad to the kids, and she is definitely afraid of "losing the kids", to whom, I told her at one point, I am extremely reluctant to lie, especially where such a lie would involve allowing a man of questionable moral character to take up a position of influence in their lives. She doesn't hold QUITE all the cards.
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everything "seems like," and "appears to be," but nothing is definitive...
I am a lawyer by trade and training-- nothing ever is definitive.
Artista, I was wondering if you could share some more color on this facet, in particular. What were some of the things you did, or didn't do, out of a sense of loyalty to the OM? Did your husband suspect or figure out why you were doing these things? What are some of the "tells" that one might look for, here? For example, one of the things my W does, she started getting very shy about me seeing her naked about the same time she started her A with the OM. One of the excuses she gave was that she did not feel great about the way she looked and was self conscious, but also that she felt uncomfortable about me seeing her since we no longer had that kind of R. But I always wondered if it was out of a desire to keep those parts of her hidden and reserved "only for the OM." Of course, now, she is continuing with that shyness, although now she does have a more credible excuse that she has put on about 15 pounds. Not that I mind, but I have been able to discern that much. She's definitely curvier than before... but ya think she'd be a bit more open since we are "working on things."
Any other insights would be warmly welcomed... this is great stuff, thanks!
Last edited by Cadet; 12/06/1710:35 PM.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Arista so nicely stated what I have been saying all along. You never got a firm commitment, it's always been a gray area and working with that gray area is not piecing and you are 10 steps ahead of where she is.
Look, I am going to be wholeheartedly honest here. I applaud your work and commitment. But, from what it's been looking like, and what has been said in MC..... her heart isn't in it. Likely you can keep her away from OM for a while, but I don't think she will ever put herself wholly in this M unless it's her saying "I love you, I want to have to a new fulfilling M. Right now she is going through the motions, just like she did when she was a kid in her catholic upbringing.
How do I see your M having any hope at all? By you simply letting her go. If she can't give you a firm commitment with her heart truly in it, just let her go. Let her be free. I know you are terrified to do it, but if she isn't all in and just keeps doing what she is "supposed to do", I don't think the intimacy will ever be restored and you will not be returned to a true M.
I personally think you do deserve to have true intimacy with your wife.
Told her we both need to be fully committed to this-- "all in". ... Basically she said that reading ahead through some of the intimacy exercises, it was "very hard for her to imagine" the two of us doing some of those things. In fact for the more intimate things, she said she "couldn't see it at all" from where she was currently standing (and she cited how awkward the kiss felt), nor could she see how we could get there. She was, however, (or so she said), "willing to try" to get to that point.
What is your mindset on how you want this sitch to go down? Are you going to hang in there even if she never fully commits as long as she doesn’t see OM, or do you think at some point you will decide you deserve more than a wife who is “half” in?
The first sentence above was you telling her what you need, then a few sentences of her not committing to what you need, but not really shooting it down, and NOTHING was accomplished; still status quo.
I really think you need to back off from her, go out, do your own thing and focus on improving yourself (work, social life, sports, trying new things like sky diving, taking flying lessons, whatever) and let her be. I am not saying to tell her you “done”, I’m not saying to be mean to her or ignore her… I’m just saying to be Jim, not Jim and Wife. If she asks to join, then feel free to let her, but if she doesn’t, don’t invite her. I think your past where being mysterious is a benefit (but I could be wrong), but I think you need to start being awesome and her want to join in on that.
M - 9 1/2 years 5/5/16 - Bomb drop - 3 week EA 10/31/16 - We sold house 01/10/18 - D Finalized
